Sean Price & Mick Barry

This is the TPM podcast, a show where we talk to the best and brightest across all industries and sectors, from CEOs to CEOs, marketing execs to service delivery and all in between. My name is Sean Price and I'm the CEO of Fellows Managed Services and this is the TPM podcast. And on this week's episode we have Mick Barry. Mick started out his life repairing, believe it or not, calculators and typewriters, a field engineer with parts in hand to fix those typewriters in rooms full of people to identify how social delivery should work, looking at how best to optimize and run social delivery departments when you know how field technician works. Now Mick Barry, living in Mexico on a beautiful resort, mid-COVID and having travelled the world over, talks to us about what that journey was like, how the world looks today, how his company Octopian looks after people, how they identify risks. This is Mick Barry. Hey Mick, how are you doing? Right, good. Still busy even though it's Christmas week. Well, it's not slowed down, has it? It really hasn't. It's got to be a good thing. Whilst we can continue this way, it's got to be a good thing. So Mick, you and I met a few years back as most of us do over a few drinks. For you and I it was in Las Vegas at the SIA conference. You're a man that everybody knows, a man that everyone respects and has had an illustrious career. I only tell you about where it started. How did you get into IT? Where did that all stem from? Okay, well just before that background from where I was actually born in Germany, when my father was still in the military after the Second World War. And so he stayed on. So I grew up in as a military brat in Germany, Libya, for three years. And then I decided on the education so we quit the army. I'm not a job in Wolverhampton. So I had to go to Wolverhampton. And after I left school at 16, I decided that Wolverhampton wasn't for me, given my background as a child. So I went on a one way to get Australia on my own. And I was just before I 17 when I worked for some time at a factory in Wolverhampton, an automotive factory. And in those days, a lot of kids were left school at 16. So went to Australia on the immigration. If you're under 19, you've got a one way ticket for free as long as you stay for two years. So took a plane to Sydney and got a job in a warehouse unloading trucks. Come to find out inside the trucks where typewriters and calculators. So in those days, I've called office products. And to me, there was beginning away to you. I mean, what you went to an office or what you would see is calculators and typewriters and maybe an early copying machine. So I managed to wangle my way out of the warehouse and into the lab, mechanical technician on calculators, typewriters, lab technician in the field. My first call was a credential insurance in Sydney. There's like rows, you know, 200 typewriters, people banging away. That we would do field repair or not swap out. So that's how I started in my T so I've been fortunate to see the whole evolution from mechanical devices to what we have on our desk right now. And I've been well, and I've worked and been involved with from accounting machines, mainframes to many computers. I spent 17 years with data general and, you know, the exciting years of development of many computers cut down from mainframes. And these companies may be an expat went to travel to many countries and lived in many countries through my tenure. So that's how I got into by being a mechanical and then obviously mechanical devices turned into electronic calculators. So I studied electronics and started to repair tech on calculators. So I've seen the whole evolution of that was over 50 years ago. So I've seen the whole transformation of IT for a stand over 50 years. So yeah, like you say, you've literally seen the whole, I mean, we're talking a lot now at the moment about digital transformation. You've really quite literally seen it transform into digital from, you know, a very analog status. So I mean, when you're out there fixing typewriters and you mentioned potential, obviously that was quite sizable. Was there any particular horror stories or interesting field experiences that you had back then? Well, I can remember one where I was, this was past the target. Well, they used to be device called paper tunch paper devices. And I was, you know, work. I'm trying to change a belt drive, but I forgot to turn the power off. And there was still live AC. I mean, Australia is 240 volts. So 220. So they're still live in there. I've got my hands inside the thing and like electric shop, which blew me right off the chair. And here I'm about 300 people in this building. And there's me flat on my back. Now, fortunately, nothing happened, but I would recall that it was an embarrassing moment. I've also been like everybody else in a plug something into the wrong slot and smoke coming out. I've had my fair share of horror stories or very embarrassing moments. But one thing that I remember when my first started is, you know, I had a lot to learn. And I was like the youngest person in the company. And also being in those days, what they called a palm in Australia. That was another hurdle you had to overcome. Because in those days, it's not better now. But I'm talking about the late 60s. A lot of Australians resented come people coming from England, because they were subsidizing it with their taxes. So the only way, it took me about six to nine months to figure out that. The only way to succeed there was to just act like them, speak like them, eat like them and drink like that. And so I remember, you know, long distance calls, it was a fortune. I remember, but after a year, speaking to my mother, I called him maybe once a week, once or two weeks. And she was saying, "Mick, I mean, you don't even sound like for me, not anymore." Well, you know, one thing I didn't, well, I never had and didn't ever want was I have a move of hand to an accent. Sorry to anybody from the hand to this, me to this. So I had to shred all that to actually just change my whole way of dressing, way of talking, and way of socializing. So I made a big point at that point that's helped me today is to try and divorce myself from expect communities. So, I mean, that's a key key key to some of my successes. The fact that everywhere I've lived in every country, I've always tried to embed myself in local society. So, I mean, that ties nicely into where you are now, obviously, you're in Mexico. How long have you been in Mexico and how did that come about? Well, I've been in Mexico for over 20 years. I'm a Mexican citizen. I travel, I have dual citizenship, UK and Mexican. I travel on my Mexican passport. I left here by choice. I could live in many countries. But I started here not with data general. I've been sent from Australia to a project in Venezuela, which I stayed for two years. Then they sent me to Boston and then they decided to acquire a company in Mexico in. I was in the early 80s and then I was sent to Mexico to do the start-up of the acquisition and manage the acquisition and the start-up primarily on field service. And from then I went off back to, I got transferred back to Boston and then to Puerto Rico, live in Puerto Rico for five years. Then I bought, well, it's, I helped start a company, which was sort of sold. I was looking for a home and decided that I'd pick Mexico. Because the company we had head office with Miami and from Cancun to Miami is only about 50 minutes an hour. And logistically, a lot of people think I just moved here for the beach and the sound, well, not really. I've had more than enough of that in my life, but logistically, Cancun, because it's one of the largest tourist destinations in the world. From here, you can get, well, before COVID, you can get anywhere. You can go to, you know, flights to Moscow, Turkey, anywhere South America, 39 destinations in the US. And so I used to travel so much. It became a very good place to travel from to where I was doing business. Certainly have more advantages than Wolverhampton as far as commuting goes then. Yeah, but it's just, I mean, nothing, I mean, you know, I have two brothers, one of my brothers still lives in Wolverhampton in the same house and family house. And, you know, there's some really nice parts outside of Wolverhampton and the countryside and it's changed a lot. I mean, it used to be part of the industrial revolution. It was, it wasn't very pretty, but it is now. It's just because of my upbringing. I always had this thirst for travel. So that was one of the motivating factors to delete. So, you know, you've had some great successes in various companies over the years. I mean, you were part of decision one once upon a time and ESP both, you know, big names in the industry. How did those come about and, you know, what were you focused on in those companies? Okay. With decision one, I was actually at that time I had my, I had my own, I mean, I took a 10 year break. I retired for 10 years and went sailing for 10 years. And then after that, it took a lot of money. So I decided to try to go back to work. I already had my retirement, which I was fortunate, you know, that I got to spend 10 years not working. So I decided to go back to work, open a consulting company of an approach to most of the people used to have interaction with before. And when I had my own company, I was Latin American contract for D1. There were a lot of people there still do. And so I said, oh, I'm back in, you know, back on the market and consulting. So I didn't bring consulting. I had some problems I had in that time. And then they offered me a job to come and help manage their international partner network. And you the CEO. And so I got hired to, I was there for a year and a half. And enjoyed it. I mean, I still have a lot of friends here and been involved since then, not now, but before with ESP. So I got involved with D1. So yeah, that was a very enjoyable experience. Then, then I just, well, I was, I became, through D1, I became great friends with the, the owner of ESP, who since passed away a couple of years ago. So he came to me and said, you know, you want to put a footprint in Latin Caribbean. Can you, can you come on board and help build the infrastructure in Latin? So the rependered process is something of, you know, done before. And so then I built up the network. They achieved a lot of business. They were grown. I mean, they're heavily into the aviation industry. But they also, they have a lot of other business divisions that's still operating in Latin with the same team. So it was a, it was a good experience. The reason I moved on from there was because I said, I was very close to family friend and professional friend of the owner. And when he passed away, when he started out, I might see wouldn't have the freedom and the flexibility I'd had before. So I'm a, and Dr. Joepian happened to be a customer of ESP. So, yeah. So I ended up, so, and this has been a very up in here over two years now. And fortunate, especially the way that the life we live, I know I really enjoy working here and enjoy the atmosphere. And same once again, we didn't have an infrastructure in Latin. So that's, that was, first year was spent building that. And this year's been, you know, growing the customer base. So what does a lot of those people do then? What's the, what's the sweet spot for the company and, you know, how have you held that grow? Well, put it this way. Most. We have some large direct customers on a global basis. But what I've bought is we've, we, we're the go to company. We like to think we are. In some, in some cases, I know we are the go to company for TPMs working out of Europe or United States. But that's when I started, you know, and the goal was if I build infrastructure, get the footprint of the global, so the corporation as a whole can offer global solutions. But then to justify the network and the expense. It wasn't such a difficult task to go through the SIA and we're up and going for that seven years and say, hey, you know, I'm back, you know, here. Octopium is very strong financial company. Been around a long time and, you know, take a good look at your partner network that you've got in that time. And take a look at us and not that. That is zero as an SI board member. I'm sure you're familiar with how successful that has been. Of course, I mean, it's been said by many that Latam is notorious, the difficult to do business in. Notarious, the difficult to operate and get things done in a timely manner. And that's where I guess you really shine being in situ effectively. Well, first of all, you know, I've been to every single country. I've been to the same time as Central America and every island in the Caribbean that has an airport. And some the dunk and what about the key is to understand the culture, you know, lived and breathed the culture since 1981 when I was first transferred to the Lysuela. It's not only language, it's a culture of not every country. You know, each country has its own nuances, cultural wise, working hours, labor laws. But I've been fortunate around that long that most of the people I'm dealing with, even down to the engineers, service desk people, project managers. I know personally I've met them. I've worked with them. I've had dinner with them. I've gone to football matches. So I've had this luxury of developing this relationship over many years. And I tend when I can't do business with people that I've done before. So I have a, you know, I can I have a screen that streams tickets. I can normally look at a technician's name and all you know him or I remember him. So that's, I can tell you an interesting story where I was asked, well, you know, the business is growing growing and growing. But your travel budget has gone from a huge amount of money to zero, but the business has grown. So why all the travel? The answer to that question is that if I hadn't traveled so much, I wouldn't know so many people. Because there's a lot of people out there. Companies now sprouting up, they seem to sprout up on a very frequent basis where it was X company. Now we've X global. And I call them the role of X. They can die with a role of X. Now, you know, sometimes that's going to work. And sometimes they start like that. And they can build themselves up. But we get business to where some of you come to us, not only here, but before with. Oh, Mick, I got this disaster in this country. Can you help? I just, I just want to take it for you and help you. And that would that normally tends to open up in a bigger relationship. So we've a lot of business. I mean, you know David Coleman, right? Yeah, yeah, with good friend of mine. And I met him on LinkedIn one night. Maybe 10 years ago, we posted that he added server down in Wollahara. So I asked if I can fix that we fix it. We got it fixed the next day. And then few months later or very less, he moved to home network of. And it was substantial piece of business in Mexico to where I was working. It's not relationships developed over time. People move on one place or the other, but not only the friendship and relationship maintains. So, I think this is an industry, particularly where. You know, like many places is not what you know is who you know. And there's an awful lot of that, like you say, rollolex businesses that pop up. And everybody taps at their global. I like to say you're only global with an asterisk. Right? Everyone's got areas where they're strongest. But, you know, and I think a lot of them be end up. It's it's somebody that leaves one company and then they think they're going to start their own. And yeah, they can subcontract a few tickets here and there. But when it comes to crunch time and actually delivering good quality service. You can do that with that infrastructure. You can't do that without a team and. In country presence and. It's one thing to. You know, be the subcontractor to add your 15 20% margin and then subcontract it out again and you. You'll be a broker and we see a lot of those you're right. You've got to be able to give a value and. Above all else, you've got to know. You've got to know how people operate. You've got to know the culture. how your client is in in country X versus your partner versus your in country field text and understand that two o'clock in the afternoon somebody in Latin I'm only just becoming back to work. Right? I grew up and I lived in Spain for almost ten years so I'm familiar with the same culture and speak the same you know I speak fluent Spanish as well and if you go with the mentality as so many do that every country operates the same or every country has the same mentality and work ethic you're never going to succeed. Yeah. No I said based that I've lived in the states a couple of times lived throughout throughout the region so and also it's a it's a case of setting a expectation level right with the customer too I mean you might want 24 by seven in a certain location and I said well maybe I'm not going to sign up to something that I'm not really confident I can deliver how about next business day and the what we live in today a lot of this work we do right now is scheduled anyway. Okay so it's the case of knowing what you can deliver and where and how but Latin America has improved a lot these days than it was in you know 20 years ago I mean for the most part you can deliver a global product throughout throughout the region so only when you get off the beaten track but you know I mean we work in Mexico in some places where you shouldn't be driving at night time for instance some places we shouldn't even drive them during the day time but you know we we we get it done and so even even when we look at I brought it off for in Mexico we could could differ from region by region of the country. We're trying not to focus heavily on what's going on in the world right now around COVID because it's talked everywhere by everyone and everyone's got their own valid opinions on that but you know how is Octopian as a company and you are supposed to dwell from your position in the company how you looking after people be it your service desks your engineers you know what's steps have been taken because obviously there are some areas where you just can't get a tech to site and there are some areas where it's a little bit more relaxed what what efforts is the company making to make sure that people have taken care of? Okay well the first thing is that we want in the Middle East we want awards by two or three governments for they offered benefits to subsidize your payroll I guess something similar to the furrow program in UK well we turned all that down we maintained 100% of our payroll and we know no employees were laid off in fact due our growth we've had to hire more people like yourself okay what do we do about the technicians? what we do is we we comply with the PPE requirements for the customer that may vary we've had somewhere the engineers had to have a PCR test and prove that he's had it and take it to site we there's some is just a mask but we we're complying with the PPE requirements for every customer and like any of you ticket we get now you know fill out this form fill out a question error so COVID well also we get a note the scenario is where the the customers say well it's a hot drive swap for instance they just drop it off at the security we we we we'll do it ourselves then a lot of these data centers has that have their own IT people so we see quite a few tickets where we just deliver the part to site and the customer takes care of doesn't even want to send our facility you know that they don't anybody in their facility that's not 100% necessary so and then when we're inside we maintain the social distance or all the rules and regulations that are posted just allow on every wall around the sleep but COVID has from operations point of view has not really had the city of impact for a major impact on the way we do where we do business you think it's going to impact at all how services delivered going forward or do you think there's going to be a time in the near future where it's business as usual well good question I think some customers might think well well I survived the year without having a technician in my facility why do I need that now maybe I just need a part suddenly service and I've actually had a couple of those requests okay but hey you know and you know I'll take I can swap out of power supply I can swap out of hard drive but you know system board yeah maybe I'd engineer for that so I can see that coming up on the horizon where you know these data centers where they do have IT people they might take over some more of the the basic tasks that we would normally do ourselves okay that's how I that's about the only thing I can see on the horizon that might differ because to me as I think you know end of life I think it's really you've got the first phase of end of life when you're in end of William support then you got the end of life and now I can see a post end of life market where people might just keep the stuff running given the financial impact of so many companies are experiencing so you know I'd see two two two phases of end of life I expect to see a lot of times we get a contract and the life might be one year two years in general I can see those going out for three or four years I mean you know from from our perspective and what you said odd to Octopium's grown during this period you know and as she said so we and I think you're quite right there it's almost it's creating opportunities certainly going into the next year it's creating opportunities 2021 that perhaps weren't there before and I think it's also slimming down the number of roletx companies as well is what I've noticed because when you are reliant on nothing more than pass and tickets backwards of forwards there's there's no solid business there and once that sort of dries up you know it's it's leaving those who are a little bit stronger behind to pick up the mess effectively well you said in a recent acquisition the curvature by Park Place so I also think there's going to be less companies it's a very crowded market right now extremely crowded and I think that that will change in I think you start to see less I mean a lot of companies as they look to their data center environments what they're going to do I think you're going to see a lot more doing a lot more due diligence on who they do what they're with and maybe narrow the scope of the field engineer so much I mean what would I do for instance you know obviously we do a lot of smart hands and there's web X calls so I'll put it on a screen and I'm not really involved but I like watching it you know I can still work and watch it and I get to see what's going on I get to see the customers normally on the line I get to speak to him if I'm going to speak I can watch the quality of our service I used to write shotgun basically well known for writing shotgun with their fees wherever I just but because I used to be one but it's a good way to meet the customer and also work with the engineer could be a bit overbearing at times I tried to make that painful that's less painful as possible and but now I'll I'll sit on a on a especially weekends we do a lot of you know data center stuff on installations we just did a large one in Puerto Rico so I'll sit there for and I'll watch it for a couple of hours and it's I mean I first like my interest thing but it's a good way too to to get to know what your what your team is actually doing in front of the customer out of the field okay it is because ultimately you know this is a business where your engineers in the field are who represent to you it's it's it's wanting for you to sell that service and you'll have the companies that will sell it and then throw it over the fence to do operations to deal with but I mean if you keep on top of that I don't actually maintain that and show the quality then you know that's put you head and shoulders above 90% of the industry I'd say plus there's also times translation you know it's sometimes I might end up having to translate a bit because the engineer not had a recent slow in English then we have challenges where the English the engineer speaks in some of these countries is not the same English as a guy on the on the support desk out in Asia for some of that and that so sometimes I'm engaged in translating English to another form of English and that all helps you know I mean sometimes a lot of people see they're surprised I'm on these calls but as I said it's normally it's sitting there in the background unless it's maybe a weekend or an evening it's sitting here in the background and I just obviously not all of them but I mean I said because I used to go out and visit customers and I normally go if there's a project going on like a rack and stack and I went to one in Rio while I go and spend a couple hours there you know it was like a week project but I just go out and eat the customers customer, see the engineers and I could do it that way but can't do that anymore. So I tend to participate in some of these web excursions to see what the service is all about, what we're actually getting paid to do. I mean, you've been working from home now for quite some time despite obviously COVID you travelled previously when you had to and you sort of mentioned it earlier about you took 10 years off to sail. Yes. This is some great places I assume. Yeah, well, it happened that this company come last year that it was built. I mean, two guys started it and then they asked me to join to run the service. It was the typical of guy who put up the money, the sales guy and then the field service guy. That's how we started. And the company grew over 11 years. We had over 700 direct employees and about another 500 contractors throughout Latin Caribbean. Start up in the aviation business for Eastern Airlines and they went bankrupt and they were working for Pan Am then they went bankrupt. But then American Airlines and United took over all of Latin. There were the dominant US carriers continental. So we became their service providers under umbrellas from companies like D1 and other companies. But we built this infrastructure throughout Latin America to do field service. But then all of a sudden Cisco's silicon graphics, Dell, HP was selling product into Latin America was ending up in Latin America but there was no warranties. So we became one of the pioneering warranty providers for OEMs throughout Latin. And that just grew and grew and grew. We never had a business plant. It just grew and grew. And I spent years just traveling around. I didn't really want the partner network. I wanted to have our own company in every single country. I had to being on our own, I had to feed them to do that. Didn't have to justify it to anybody. If we could afford it, we did it. And without our knowing that became our biggest asset was we had over 25 legal entities. And then UPS came in and bought the company. And the reason they bought it is because they were losing out to FedEx and DHL on large accounts, especially with Dell, because they could only offer domestic. They couldn't offer anything in Latin America. And so they bought the company not for what we were doing. They just bought the company for the legal entities. But after selling the company, they asked me to stay on to work with them. That only lasted a couple months because I didn't use to that stage doing what I wanted to. Plus, I was pretty much had enough. I mean, it just grew so fast. It was pretty stressful. And I ended up with a very strong, non-compete. I couldn't, I was not allowed to work in the IT business period for many years. But I was compensated for it. So I bought a cell boat, which is always like something I wanted to do. And I started boarding for a lot of the day. I went to school in QS to get my basic sailing diploma. Then took off for the keys, Cuba as in Cuba. And then ended up in Cancun, Belize for a couple years. So I was based in the last three years. I was based in Guatemala because I can actually drive from here to Guatemala to where I had my boat. So for 15 hours. So I spent 10 glorious years of doing nothing but sailing and hanging out at marinas. And to me, I had a fortune because I retired at 51. I didn't think I'd ever come back to work. But my father, when he retired, he, after a while, he was traditional 65. And he had a lot of things he wanted to, but he got ill. And so a lot of his retirement was very difficult. So I decided, well, I'm just going to enjoy this because you never know, you know, without your health retirement, we pretty miserable existence. So I don't, I have no plans to retire. And the sailing, I got it out of my system now. I was really sad that I sold it. But I was fortunate. I got a good price for it. But I'm just glad I had the chance to do it. And I have no intention of, I have a lot of friends in Cancun. I have boats. So don't need my own anymore. You don't miss it out. Why, I really missed the time I had. It's great. But it became a huge financial burden as well, especially how I can ensure it's marinas. It was a sailboat that I had some really wonderful times on that. Great. So I miss it. But you never know what's interesting. But I'm fortunate right now just to do something I still really like doing. I mean, it's rare where I have a day when I wish Jesus, man, I wouldn't do this anymore. I have some moments when I have this. Not complete days. So obviously you and I know each other with that. I get to see all your photos and everything that you've put in a phone line and some of the wonderful places you get to go and eat and drink and everything else out there. It looks like it's actually really does. So what does work of life balance? If there is one, look like to you now. I mean, I always talk about work like integration. I don't think there's a balance, especially when you do things at the levels that we do. So I look at it as an integration. What's I like for you nowadays? Because you've done the retirement and you've come out for the retirement and to go back into work? Yeah. Well, first of all, the mix. I mean, I have three children who are 47, 48, 50 years old now, lying grandchildren. And I've worked that, I mean, I drag them from one country to another country to another country. I don't know how many schools and stuff like that. And so they will grow and none of them have relocated period. One of them in Brazil, one lives in Austin, Texas, other than in Brisbane, Australia. And they brought up their families without taking them. Or they all still live in the same house and the same place for many, many years. And they said, you know, so I've always been accused. I've always taken work as a main priority. Well, that came because when I started working, it had to be, to make money. And the travel was part of making the money. So, so be it. I travel. How do I handle it now? It must be not very well. I must spend too much time working as my kids do. I don't like that. Don't you ever stop? Well, I do stop. I mean, I, I have a bit of the most I can get out and about. But, you know, I mean, aside from working out, exercising, because I can only take so much of Netflix. So I try to avoid the news. So I'll end up, because of the, you know, we have the three shifts. We do some shifts here in Mexico. Then there's a guy isn't to buy or on shift. So I can normally, you know, I'll miss you to work a lot maybe till one or two, have a couple of few hours break and then work into the evening. So I'm mostly working more hours now than ever. But I mean, as I said for most, but I enjoy it. So it, for me, it's a good, good way of switching off from what's going on in the world. Okay. I agree. And, you know, it was only, it was it this weekend was the first ever Boris announcement I've watched. And for me, it was, I'll get the information filtered down. I'll get to understand what's going on. But what I thought, you know, I'll watch one. And it is pure horror stories that's been, that's been told. And I'm very much of the opinion that, you know, what you read and what you digest, you know, will play on your mind and will, will sort of direct the censors. And I sent out a company email back in August that said, you know, we at Velazas have made a management decision not to participate in this recession. Purely from the perspective of trying to have a positive mental attitude towards what's going on in the world. Because otherwise, if you stare at that brick wall, you're going to crash into it and you need to provide some positivity to those around you. You've obviously had, you know, this career that spanned almost every country in the globe, it would sound. And, you know, some illustrious companies as well. What's one thing in terms of people management that you've found as you've grown throughout these organizations? What's one thing that you would apply to any business that you go into today from a people perspective? Well, first of all, I'm a firm believer if you're going to hire somebody that you in a trust empowerment, okay? I mean, I've always been, when I have my own company and I'm going to be able to come to me. Most of the places where I've worked, including where I know. I mean, you know, I'm expected to be able to make a decision without having to go to us, you know, not all this bureaucracy. I report to the two owners of the company, but I also expect people in a team. Well, that they're only empowered if you let them be empowered. And I've been fortunate that just about everywhere I've worked, I've been given a lot of leeway, a lot of authority working on different time zones, you know, a lot of times you can't wait for somebody another time zone to approve something. So I've always, you know, guess what? I'm just going to do this and play the consequences if it somebody didn't like it. I hope that answers your question, but the biggest thing is you've got to trust the people in the team. I'm a very much a team player. I was actually, I didn't prepare for this. I was thinking about this, maybe that's something nice, but you know, used to play football when I was a kid in England, played a bit in Australia, some in Venezuela. And just like field engineering or even on a football pitch, I was never the best field engineer and I was never the best football player on the team never not by a long shot. But it's like a captain of a football team these days, you know, I still watch not as much now, but he's very passionate about football. I'm sure the captain is the best guy on this pitch, okay? His role is not to be the best. His role is to get the best out of every other guy on the team. So I always consider myself as that. If we're working as a group, my job is to make sure that everybody can succeed. That's my role. And I'll hold up the trophy at the end of the match. I'm not worried about that. But the thing is too is that, you know, teamwork is just no matter what work of life you're in working as a team. I think it's always been my strength because I realized from where even when I started, even as a calculator mechanic man, there's a lot of guys up better than me a lot. So they became my friends and they helped me impart their knowledge to me. It's not rocket science. It's all the matter of human behavior and attributes, customer service. You know, that's the most, I think that's the most important thing that I think that's most important asset I've had over the years is the fact that I've always managed to not always. Most cases being managed to satisfy a customer and gain his trust. And also because a lot of times, you know, if you have a contract and nothing goes wrong, well, they have no idea what you like. A lot of times you get measure on how you manage a crisis and an escalation. And the customer say, wow, they did that very good. Okay. I mean, you know, the budget goes out the door. Everything you just got to get this thing fixed and the customer fixed. I've noticed type of customers where you've had escalations and you're successful and not long term customers. That's what we talk about a lot is, you know, particularly in our industry, you never get a customer call you up because they're having a great day. There are only ever calling you when something is going wrong and it's how you deal with that, how you react to that. You know, it sounds like over the years you've obviously absorbed a lot from like you said, people who are smarter than you and who knew more than you and you've been able to map technical knowledge to empathy with the customer. So it's the best of both worlds. You're able to understand what the customer is going through whilst understanding the difficulties the technician that has perhaps. I can remember I was in a, you know, lived in New Zealand, like a transfer from Australia to New Zealand. And then one day, by the way, you're the, you know, we got too many text now. You're going to be the branch manager. So yeah, okay. Well, because you've been here the longest. Okay. Never going to manage me for my life. And those days it was, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't have a college degree. I don't have very few academic qualifications. I mean, that was because just my. Up around in the Midlands, industrial area 16 that normally leave school and go to work in a factory. You know, I wish I definitely wish I had one most of your times. I should have maybe spent some of my retirement getting one. But in the end, I've managed to survive without it. But I definitely, you know, academic qualifications, I believe in them obviously degrees and type of stuff. But I've also had experience where some are most highly academic qualified people that have been with me have not been that successful when it comes to being in the field. Or with customer relationships, that type of thing. Okay. So, but the world has changed now. I mean, you know, I mean, where I, in my days, no, no, I could go to. Well, first I've never really actively looked for another job. Most of most of my time, it's from these approached me. And those days, and I would have asked you if you went to college or whatever it was more that they would give you an aptitude test on the interview. You go and see if you can figure this out. Or I never to get in from the warehouse to the calculator lab. They just took it all apart and told me to put it back together again. Okay. Well, I got close. Now I thought, now I didn't do it. And no, where I'm going to get this now. And I asked, but I know he said, you're in. It's that you know, nobody ever gets. We make sure that nobody can actually succeed. It's just how close and they watch your aptitude, you logic on trying to figure out how to put this thing back together. And that was an interview in those days. Okay. So we talked about it briefly a little bit earlier on with pop plays and curvature sort of merger. Yeah. How do you see that playing out? Is that something that you think is going to be good for the industry bad for the industry in different opportunities for everyone around? I think so. I mean, I know one company very well. The other one I don't know very well. But, you know, I think it's one of the, well, we're both. It's one correct. They're both owned by VC companies, I think. So, you know, I just, I just see it as two venture capital is sort of getting together. Let's create the biggest monster that we can. From what I've seen a five something they have different strengths work in different fields. So. Yeah, I mean, I hopefully, hopefully it's a positive positive thing because. I was back to what I see as a shake out. And it's, I mean, it happened. Happens in nearly every industry. It happens in. It happened in the aviation industry where there's a lot of mergers and, you know, that became less airlines to fly on them before. I was watching a program about hospitals, where a lot of these hospital companies now getting together ones buying another one acquisitions. And you see it's a normal trend in the industry mature matureing. To me, that, you know, the more strong TPMs are out there is better for the industry as a whole to compete against the OEMs. So. I mean, I haven't given a lot of thought about how it's going to end up, but that. Given the amount of money that's involved in the two companies. Will we now or I know the largest TPM in the world, but I would assume. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just a lot of friends are coming because I will try to go because I think I would involve with some of their. The acquisitions going back to do some work for Olympic Olympic got acquired by SMS and then I was friends with SMS and SMS acquired. So I have friends in those companies over the years. I've seen the acquisition trail. The roll up. There's a lot of conversation about where private equity stands in, you know, the world of TPM. Obviously there's there's an awful lot of privately owned companies, but you know, those backed by private equity or venture capital is obviously greater now. And Octopian privately owned. I assume. Yes. It's 100% privately owned. It's part of various divisions. But it's a it we have two main offices one in Dubai and one in Berlin. Yeah. Which, you know, it's. It's a very. It's a very, very, very, very, very important. Well, not a selling point, but a justification of coming through us is a is a financial status, you know, of the company. Okay. Obviously, I'm on the you know, it's important. If you're going to. If you rely on a company to handle the big data center full of product. And then we've made it a substantial investment this year on spare parts inventory. Continue to do so. And I suppose finally, when I look back from type writers all the way through to data centers today, you know, if you could pick one moment in your career that was, you know, the most proud moment of your career, what will that be? Well, it's very hard to say one. There's been quite a few. I mean, I was very proud of my contribution to the success of Comhassa. I mean, it was, you know, it was, it was ended up a big outfit, substantial amount of revenue and it was sold for a very good sum. So that was mostly, yeah, the outstanding part of my career was, you know, the part of the group that would be till a very, very small company to the size it was. And it was big news. It was on CNN. I still got the Wall Street Journal, CNN, you name it, it was big news because the UPSH just were in public and they decided to spend their money on acquisitions and so they chose us. Okay. I have a various, I was sent to Venezuela because work of a data general and the government had a huge issue with the quality of the product that had been delivered. Those days you would ship on a ship date where they worked or not. And there was a 33 mini computer scattered across Venezuela delivered to all company, huge issues and I was sent there to resolve them. And I managed to get the whole situation resolved, managed to operate all the equipment and that pretty much set my career on the path that ended up where I am today. The fact that I managed to get another country didn't speak a word of Spanish in those days. And then I decided to stay there. Okay. After that, I decided to stay there and grow the company. I mean, I could rewrite quite of your stories like that. But I guess the only one, if you look at a start and finish the 11 years of commas, I was really exciting. Even that years at data general, I would never know where I was from one day. I could be in Europe, I could be in the States, I could be in Brazil. And it was for the most part really enjoyable. And I'd go back, I'd look back, I'd say, how lucky can you get to doing something for 50 years that you like? Okay. And still do. Okay. Sorry. Well, it's a hell of a career. And I think you've enjoyed some fantastic moments and met some great people and been some incredible places. So there's a lot of people that would never get to experience a tenth of what you've been able to achieve in your career. So it's incredible and congratulate you on that. Well, I think thanks. But I mean, a lot of relationships, I know people that we both know, especially SIA, I've maintained the relationships for years, no matter where I've been, socially and workwise. And also saying, I mean, if I can do it, anybody can do it. I mean, I said, well, my children have been successful. And my son in Brazil, he's, he's, he's, he's, um, works for one of the largest, well, he's manages one of the largest global travel corporate travel agencies in the world. He's been in Brazil for over 20 years. Won't be, won't be leaving. He's married. We have a doctor and a family's wife, a doctor. So, family is also, um, despite the, you know, the child of the movement from here to there and everywhere, they will grown up and a great family too. Now, three COVID, obviously, I, I would spend, I could travel, I mean, Austin's only two hours from here, where I'd be in Brazil when I wasn't traveling on the road. I'd must end up spending time in Brazil. So that's something I miss and hopefully sometime in 221, we can get back to that. Yeah, that'd be nice. That's what we're all hoping for. Um, you know, a lot of people glamourize business travel, but the reality of it is it's not glamorous at all and getting stuck in airports is no fun. And, but it's, it's been one of those words, you know, I actually do miss the window view of seat 4A. Yeah, well, the thing is, I mean, to me, the travel was never such a hassle because I do a lot of guys we got on the road Monday to Friday. I know that that day's show on Friday night. Well, if I was traveling to a place I hadn't been to before, could be, you know, summer in the States or it could be a paraguay, I'd always stay. I'd come back Monday and I'd spend the weekend wandering around exploring. Kind of football match, getting no more about the country than just the office I just spent five days and that that helped me a lot on the way. I mean, a lot of times, you know, we're for a company and it's a, well, and you know, why did you stay on? I said, don't worry, if they're Sundays on me, you know, the plane ticket costs the same. And so why do you stay? I just like to be at a session or I could be at Montevideo and I just wander around the streets of the track market, going to some bar if you deers or some museum. But that also helped. And I, when I see people going on these business trips and times, I said, don't just work. You've got to get out there and see more than your work environment because you're not going to get to know a lot about a place. I mean, every office, if you've got a Dell in Mexico City, it might as well be in Dell in Austin, Texas. It's all the same. But the city is rather different. So that's why I've always had that tradition of rarely going home once the job's finished. That's the fastest way to burn out is, you know, in and out of the country. And it is. You see airplane window, hotel room, office bar, hotel room, back in the airplane. And it's incredibly repetitive and you're right. You know, there's no way you can get to know the location without going out and about. There's a lot of countries I can say I've been to, but I've actually been to that country. I've simply been door to door, gate to gate hotel to office and back again. Well, I've been in a bit of places like Brazil or Argentina because I'm there over the weekend. Some of the somebody in the office or someone in the team members say, hey, what are you doing tomorrow for lunch? Nothing. Well, when you come around to our house, we'll have a barbecue. So you meet the team, you know, the team member, you meet his wife, their children. And then you get to know more about how they live. You end up in conversations or what, you know, how they have to struggle. And it's not a lot of people don't know enough to have a quality life in that town. So you get to learn so much more about how you can help actually team members. And you learn a lot more about maybe maybe these pay structures aren't too correct. Maybe you should have some more benefits and stuff like that. But you normally only get to hear about that if you're in the, if they're family environment where they live. So I've had some fantastic times in friends and employees, team members houses over the years, meals or go into one of their schools football, whatever. Okay. The socializing aspect of the people you work with to me is pretty known, pretty much known as a social animal. And that part of it is to spend as much time as I could with the group around me. As I said, the company I believe firmly in the company I'm working for right now. The good team, we've had the proven track record now since we started it. Well, we had a proven track record outside the Americas before, okay? We have a great one now. I'm very proud of what we've achieved in that town. And as you see, we're more active now on social media and that's starting to pay off in the morning quarries. Oh, wonderful. Well, look, thanks very much. Make a pretty sheet time. What time you got over there right now? Right now, it's 11, 11, 1130, right? It's 430 pm here. It's time for a whiskey. I think it's been a long day. Okay. So, well, I really appreciate the opportunity and hope to see you face to face soon. Absolutely. Well, thanks, mate. Really appreciate this conversation. Okay. Well, thanks a long and let's be keeping touch, okay? Together, mate. Bye.