Scott Galloway on Why Young Men Are Struggling

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Find your perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com slash price match for details. When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it. The one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand and on the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is The Goop Podcast. Bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers. Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to The Goop Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and today I'm joined by one of the sharpest, most provocative thinkers in business and culture. Someone who has a rare ability to say the difficult things out loud and then back it up with real data. We talk about his new book, Notes on Being a Man and why so many boys and young men in America are struggling right now emotionally, socially, and economically. We explore how tech is shaping attention and intimacy, why mentorship and community matter more than ever, and what parents can actually do to help boys build resilience and purpose at a time when the odds feel stacked against them. Direct, compassionate, and deeply thought-provoking Professor Scott Gatton. Callaway. I'm so thrilled to have you. I've followed you for many, many years. I've been watching, you know, a lot on the book tour. I read the book. I love the book. Oh, thank you. I guess I'd like to start there. I guess just because as a mother and we have such a large audience of mothers and mothers of boys, you know, it's, I think it, you make, obviously, incredibly salient points and it's very, it's very disturbing to think about this kind of wholesale decline of the American young boy into manhood. And so, like, will you, for those who haven't read the book yet, I just, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about why this topic became urgent for you. So first off, thanks for having me and it's nice to meet you. So the data is really stark. If you walk into a morgue and there's five people who've died by suicide, four of them are men. And so, and we have a male, well, we have a homeless and an opiate crisis, but what we really have is a male homeless and a male opiate crisis. Three times as likely to be homeless or addicted, 12 times as likely to be incarcerated, four times as likely to kill themselves. And there, I would argue there's been no group in America that has fallen further faster than young men. And unfortunately, there's a lack of empathy and a reticence to move in with programs because of the unearned benefit and privilege of my organization. Of men of my generation. From 1945 to 2000, Gwyneth, America registered a third of the world's economic growth with just 5% of the population. So we had six times the prosperity. And then within that 6X, all of that prosperity was crammed into just one third of the population that happened to be white, male, and heterosexual. So I just need to acknowledge up front, men of my generation and my profile had unearned, disproportionate, gale force wins in our sales. But the problem is a 19-year-old male is being held accountable for my unearned privilege. So when I start talking about this issue, there's an understandable gag reflex of, well, Scott, you guys have had a 3,000-year head start. And the question is, should a 19-year-old be paying for the price of the penalty for my privilege? And the thing that got me, the exact moment I got really interested in this was a kid named Alex Kearns. I don't know if you saw the story, but he was trading options on Robinhood. And they errantly said, you're down $60,000. And he wasn't, actually. And he furiously sent emails to customer service that night and was so distraught, left his family a note saying, I didn't want to leave you with this debt and took his own life. And I started a bit of a, went down a rabbit hole around teen suicide and just started discovering all these stats around boys. So, for example, we have more single-parent homes than any place in the world. And it's typically the mother, 82% to 80% of the time, it's the mother heading the household. And what's interesting, is in single-parent households, girls have the same outcome, same rates of college attendance, same income. They can be a little bit more promiscuous because they're looking for male attention sometimes in the wrong areas. But on the big stuff, income, self-harm, college attendance, same rates as in a dual-parent household. When a boy loses a male role model through death, divorce, or abandonment, at that moment, he becomes more likely to be incarcerated than graduate from college. So, what the research shows is that while boys are physically stronger, their emotions are emotionally and neurologically much weaker than girls. And so, when you have a lot of economic and sociological factors kind of robbing opportunity from young people as a whole, people under the age of 40 are 24% less wealthy than they were 40 years ago. People over the age of 70 are 72% wealthier. It's had a disproportionately negative impact on young men. And I started talking about this about five years ago. The dialogue's gotten a lot more productive. There was huge pushback five years ago. And now, while I'll say my biggest fans are young men, my biggest supporters are hands-down single-mother feminists who say, I see something going on and, you know, it's just, we need to address this issue. Do you think that, you know, because I've always been sort of stunned by that in my own life, anecdotally, that, you know, and I didn't attribute it necessarily to the lack of a male role model because, you know, boys also who have you know, a double-parent home who experience trauma, they seem to, you know, girls kind of, in my perception, they sort of barrel through it better. You know, it's sort of like, I don't know if it's a pain tolerance thing or if boys are just more sensitive. I know, you know, in my own house, I have a 19-year-old boy who's inordinately sensitive. And I just wonder, is that something that our boys, you know, it's like we assign and project this idea that boys are sensitive and that boys are supposed to be tough and withstand, you know, I don't know, grit and punches in the face and all the stuff. But like, are they more sensitive when they're little, do you think, than girls? There's just no getting around it. They're emotionally and mentally the weaker sex. And just, there's just a bunch of data to show that. I'll give you a really frightening statistic. Two 15-year-olds, a 15-year-old boy and a 15-year-old girl, both sexually molested. Neither crime is less or more heinous than the other. But the boy is 10 years old and 10 times more likely to kill himself later in life. And I'm not suggesting that that makes it any less awful for child abuse for girls. They don't know why. It might be, one, there's some theories that one, because women have to endure pregnancy, menstruation, that quite frankly they're just tougher neurologically or quite frankly that they've just taken so much abuse they've become more resilient. But boys have a tendency just not to recover as quickly from trauma or the absence of a family or the male role model than girls. And there's this, you know, and there's a lot of things like men are less, young men are less likely to ask for help. You have, in my opinion, the elephant in the room is big tech is attached shareholder value to sequestering people from their relationships. Every minute they can get you to spend on your screen and away from other relationships, they add tens of billions of dollars in shareholder value. And they're so good at what they do, they're tapping in to an immature male brain. The male brain doesn't catch up to a woman's until the age of 25, specifically the part of the brain that knows how to regulate the pursuit of DOPA, you know, stop playing video games and start studying. That part of a man's brain is 18 months behind a girl's until he's 25. So two seniors in high school, the girl, if she's competing against a boy who's a senior, she's basically competing against a 10th grade girl. So 7 out of 10 high school valedictorians are girls. Now college is not attendance is 60-40. male to male, and it's probably two to one female grads to male grads because boys are dropping out at a greater rate. So there's just a lot of economic, sociological, and biological factors that are getting in the way. And even, and let me say it, I think the K through 12 school system in America is biased against boys. Think about the behaviors we encourage in school. Sit still, be organized, raise your hand, be a pleaser. You just described a girl. A boy is twice as likely to be suspended on a behavior-adjusted basis. Same exact infraction. If it's a boy sitting in the principal's office, he's twice as likely to be suspended. He's five times as likely to be suspended if he's a black boy. So 70 to 80% of K through 12 teachers are women. And it's just natural that they would have a tendency to empathize with and champion people who remind them of themselves. So a lack of male role models, even K through 12, I think is making it more difficult for boys to thrive. So you're talking about biological setbacks. They're just not as mature. You're talking about a society that's taken money from young people, which I think has disproportionately hurt young men who are still more evaluated by society based on their economic viability. You know, that joke that Beyonce could work at McDonald's and marry Jay-Z, but the opposite is not true. I never heard that. Women are disproportionately and unfairly evaluated by society based on their aesthetics. Women, men are disproportionately and unfairly evaluated based on their economic viability. So when young people in general don't have the same economic opportunities that our generation had, you're younger than me. But when I applied, I'm staying in LA right now. I went to UCLA. When I applied, the admissions rate was 74%. Now it's 9%. And just the cost of housing, the cost of education has skyrocketed. And so when you have less economically viable young people, it's hard on all of them, but it's especially hard on young men because relationships, romantic relationships are the key. And that is four out of five men in the upper quintile of household income will get married, only one in five men in the lowest quintile. So we don't like to talk about this, but men made socioeconomically horizontally and down, women horizontally and up. And when the pool of horizontal up keeps shrinking, there's just less household formation. And without relationships, men suffer more than women. There's this myth, Gwyneth, of the 30-year-old woman who never found romantic love. And she's this commercial where she's in a big sweater and a windowsill and it's raining outside and she has cats and it's this crime, this huge tragedy that she didn't find romantic love. Well, the thing is, for the most part, Lisa's just fine. Men come off the tracks when they don't have a relationship. Widows are happier after their husband dies. Widowers are less happy after their wife dies. A woman in a relationship does live longer. She lives two to four years longer, but a man lives four to seven years longer. So the reality is men need relationships more than women. And one of the things that Gwyneth is saying is, you know, the things that triggers people, I say, I think a man should always pay for dates. And the reason why is a woman's fertility window is shorter. A man will benefit more from a relationship than a woman. The downside of sex is much greater for a woman than a man. And I think there's an asymmetry in value. Her time, her expression of interest in a romantic relationship is more valuable than the man's. And every mammal has a courtship process. And so what I tell my boys is when you're in the company of women, you pay. And if you're in the company of women, you pay. And so I do think that there's been a certain androgynization of the genders. And unfortunately, we've done a great job of convincing ourselves that it's the other gender's fault. I think the worst thing that happened on the right, they recognized the problem, but unfortunately, their answer is to take non-whites and women back to the 50s. That's not the answer. And they blame men's dissent on women's assent. That couldn't be further from the truth. Women's assent has supported the economy. It's the reason we were in World War II is we put them in factories, so men need to be much, in my opinion, supportive of our sisters and our mother's progress and do nothing to get in the way of that. But at the same time, I think there is a certain feeling from a lot of young women that these boys don't have problems. They are the problem. And if they were just more in touch with their emotions, the far right conflates masculinity with coarseness and cruelty. And I think the far left says, act more like a woman. And I don't think that's the answer either. So there is, call it a masculinity crisis, call you what you want, young men are just really struggling in the United States right now. Yeah. I just wonder then how, you know, because it is sort of an incendiary topic, right? This like, I agree with you that I think, and I don't know if it's because I'm from an older generation, but I do think that there are certain like archetypal values that kind of become pillars in a house, right? I'm talking about like between a heterosexual couple, so I'm not trying to like leave anybody out. but we're just sort of talking about, you know. And I think that, you know, now I'm sort of trying to track this young generation's idea of masculinity, like, and watching it become sort of, I don't know, something that, like how people say, you know, there's toxic masculinity, which, you know, you talk about in your book. But I do agree with you that I think there are certain attributes of masculinity, like archetypal masculinity, there are certain masculine traits that actually help to establish, like, and set a woman free. Like, for example, I feel more powerful and in my like feminine strength when my husband is protective, right? So it's like, that to me is an important dynamic. But I do feel in here that there's, you know, it's almost like culture is trying to wrestle with this idea of, you know, the idea of masculinity and how it pertains to femininity and all these different permutations. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, just hearing you talk about this, you're choosing your words very carefully, because it's sort of like one false move. And you can come across as not being empathetic to the struggles women still face, or worse, being discriminatory against the 5% of the population that's non-binary. And the first thing I think we need to acknowledge is that empathy is not a zero-sum game. Gay marriage didn't hurt heteronormative marriage, civil rights didn't hurt white people. We can still acknowledge the huge challenges women still face. They go to 73 cents on the dollar when they have kids professionally. Men stay at 100 cents on the dollar. So we haven't figured out a way to maintain women's professional trajectory when they decide to, you know, evolve or keep, you know, the species alive. Girls are really struggling with social media. A lot of self-cuttings up 60% in social and on mobile. So we can, it's not, it's not a zero-sum game. What you're talking about is even dangerous, because I believe, for me, and this is difficult to try, and I think everybody needs a code. Some people get it from their religion. Some people get it from church. Some people get it from the military, their family. But it's hard to make all these decisions every day in a world that's throwing so many things at you every day. And I'd like to think that masculinity can serve as a code or an aspirational vision of masculinity for young men who appear to be struggling right now. They're not going to church, not going to work as much. Like, where do they find that code? And simply, if I try to distill, aspirational form of masculinity down to three legs of the stool, it's the following. One, being a provider. I think in a capitalist society, you have to be economically viable. And sometimes that means getting out of the way of your partner and being more supportive, because she happens to be better at that whole money thing. I think that's a form of masculinity. But you should assume at the outset that you might at some point need to take economic responsibility for your household, because your partner may have to gestate and produce children and take time off. And also, our society still will evaluate you based on your economic viability. I'm not saying that's the way the world should be. It's the way the world is. And something we don't like to talk about is that generally speaking, women are less attracted to men who are not making more money than them or as much. That's changing. Fourteen percent of households are now the woman's the primary breadwinner. But when the woman in the relationship starts making more money than the man, the likelihood of divorce doubles. The use of ED drugs triples. Now, some of that is because of the expectations the man puts on himself and his self-esteem goes down. And also, to be fair, divorce rates have skyrocketed in the last 40 years. But a lot of that is a function of a good thing. And that is women no longer feel economically indentured to men. But you also have this situation where men are not keeping pace with women in terms of what we call emotional labor. And that is while women's economic ascent has been up and to the right, men's ascent around kind of domestic and emotional labor has not kept pace. So a lot of women are just kind of waking up and going, OK, you're no longer the provider. And quite frankly, boss, I'm still doing the majority of the stuff around the house. I'm out. And so a lot of this is what do you attribute that decline to like of the men's, you know, emotional and economic viability? Well, on the economic side, it's a lot of the traditional on ramps for a man to have a good middle class living, you know, manufacturing jobs. A lot of those jobs have been outsourced. So remember, in high school, we used to have wood, metal and auto shop. There was a lot of these guys, they just weren't going to go to college. They didn't care about class. They didn't like it, but they could fix your car. And I just knew a bunch of these guys. They were the guys that played hooky from school and went home and picked up, you know, put their Trans Am on blocks and knew how to fix, knew how to fix shit. Vocational work, auto metal and wood shop are gone. Now we've replaced them with computer science, hoping all of our kids end up being Mark Zuckerberg. But why did we do that? Like, Europe still has vocational schools. The honest answer is, I think we. America has become a place where we used to love the unremarkable. And now it's about how do we create a super class of billionaires in the top 1%. And the problem is our optimism is our superpower, but it's also our Achilles heel because we all believe our kid is going to be in that 1%. And I can prove to each of us mathematically that 99% of our children are not in the top 1%. So to your point, 11% of LinkedIn profiles in Germany and the UK say apprentice. It's 3% in the US. We just don't have an apprenticeship culture. We've also shamed vocational jobs. And it's too bad because there's a lot of them in the mainstream economy. There are all these stories about kids in the Midwest taking auto shop and learning how to install HVAC energy efficient heaters, and they're making $80,000 their junior year in high school. But we have shamed vocational work. We have said in the eyes of Gen Z, being a barista is higher prestige than being. A pipe welder. And meanwhile, the welder makes $120,000 a year. So we've sort of shamed. But surely that will change with AI, right? I mean, if those middle jobs are getting replaced, do you think the premium will be placed on those jobs again? Well, at some point, you need them so much, especially with our immigration policy the way it is now, that they'll. That money will be thrown at these jobs that. I mean, for example, we have this path, and I don't know, I'm part of this. My kid is applying to college. I'll be hard-pressed. I'll be heartbroken if he doesn't go to an elite four-year anniversary. I'm not proud to say that. I will be heartbroken if he doesn't go to an elite university. And the reality is two-thirds of our kids don't even graduate from college. So we've created this aspirational path for them. And then if it doesn't happen, they feel shame and the parents feel shame. So a lot of it is society needs to readapt and say, okay, being able to fix EVs is a really good job, and we need to have more training and a more obvious path for vocational and trade schools. Because young men tend to enjoy, and I don't want to say be better at, but enjoy working outside and with their hands and using some of their physical strength and deploying that. But being a provider, one. Two, the whole point of prosperity is to move to protection. It breaks my heart to read about women not feeling safe on the subway. And the reason they will give is there's so many men on the subway. And I've always said, well, you know, I try to do this. I try to do this. I try to do this. I've said, if you want women to be attracted to you, the ultimate skill is to make them feel safe around you. And that is you want a woman to feel protected. You want to be in good shape. You want your first instinct needs to be one of protection. And that's not just physical protection. It's when people are talking critically about behind their back, your first default should be to say nothing or to defend them. You may not think we should have laws demanding a third bathroom, as I don't believe that. I do not believe it made any sense to let a transgender woman show up to an NC2A swim meet who was six foot five, born a male. At the same time, when you see a community being demonized for political points, your first instinct should be to protection. The most masculine jobs, firefighter, military cop, what do they do? They protect. So I think this idea that you're the guy that breaks up fights at bars, you don't start them. You're the guy that defends your country and talks it up, doesn't criticize it. The whole point, I think, of prosperity is to move to protection. And one of the things I find so disappointing, Gwyneth, about our current male role models, young men are always going to look up to the president and the wealthiest man in the world. They're the most powerful person and the person that's won capitalism. And I think that some of our male leaders right now have just entirely skipped the protection part. They've conflated masculinity with coarseness and cruelty. And quite frankly, I just think they're terrible role models for young men. And then the final thing, I think, is that they're not going to look up to the president. They're going to look up to the president. And I think that's something that gets more pushback or more controversy as procreator. And that is we have pathologized young men's desire to have romantic and sexual relationships. And I think that's a feature, not a bug. I think wanting to have sex or establish a relationship, that fire, is actually very productive when channeled correctly. Makes you want to work out, makes you want to dress better, makes you want to smell better, makes you want to have a kindness practice, makes you want to be able to demonstrate excellence, have a plan. Wanting to have sex, should turn you and usually does turn you into a better man. And I worry with the plethora of synthetic relationships, specifically the emergence of synthetic porn, that a man's mojo to go out and make the approach. 80% of women still say they want the man to initiate romantic interest. The ability to endure rejection, the ability to demonstrate a plan and excellence. I think all of these things make you a better man. And I worry that men are pursuing a frictionless form of relationships where they're not going to be able to have a romantic relationship. And I think that's very important. They don't learn the skills. They don't learn the ability to endure rejection. So I think that wanting sex is a wonderful thing if it's channeled correctly. It's never about time. It's about time. It's about time. It's about excess or extravagance. This episode is brought to you by Boris Head. You know what I love about football season? 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Army helicopter pilot, Rhodes Scholar, known to being really generous to his other artists, married for a long time, procreator, grandkids. You know, I can point to, you know, individuals who I think, you know, whether it's Barack Obama. I can also point, I think some women are tremendous role models of masculinity. Masculinity or femininity, I don't think are sequestered to people born as male or female. I tend to be drawn to men. My closest male friends tend to be more feminine, more nurturing. I tend to be drawn to me. But I think the guy who gets up every morning and hauls his ass to work because he takes his responsibility as a provider, who notices people, who absorb more complaints than he complains, who brings, you know, I don't, I think women say, quote unquote, they want a sensitive man. I quite frankly think that's bullshit. I don't think they want a sensitive man. I think that leaves, I jokingly say, I think that leaves two people in the car crying and the parallel parking spot still empty. I think that leaves two people in the car crying and the parallel parking spot still empty. I think what they want is a man, I think what they want is a man who notices their life, who says, okay, I don't get, I don't get this, but it's important to you. I notice you. I know that you need stages where strangers applaud for you. I recognize how goddamn hard it is what you're doing. And most women are now working and carrying a disproportionate amount of the load at home. And I'm going to try and contribute. I think, I think also, and I say this a lot, you know, I give the same toast at weddings. I think a man has a responsibility to try and make the marriage work for the kids and also has a responsibility, not responsibility, but for a good relationship to as often as possible reflect sexual desire and affection and say, I choose you. And I think women want to be wanted. And just saying that triggers people and they say, and just saying that they conflate those statements with wanting to take women back and that men should feel entitled to relationships or that I'm focused on money too much, all of which is a kernel of truth in, but this dialogue, this upsets a lot of people that they conflate this with sort of saying, okay, it's women's fault. And I'm not saying that at all. And nor do I think that any group is obligated to service another group. I don't think that at all, but I do think there's a bit of a trap around embracing some of the traditional attributes, usually associated with men. And also I think men, people born as males have an easier time leaning into these things. And I also think there's a bit of a wrap around what, how we should be behaving as humans and how we actually behave. And we're not honest with ourselves. And so anyways, my point is, I do think that there's, I'd like to think that an aspirational form of masculinity can be restored by a guiding light or a code for young men. And I can't tell you how much more productive the dialogue has become. Five years ago, I was called Andrew Tate with an MBA. And now Now people are having a much more productive dialogue and it's, it's being inspired by mothers and it goes something like this. The emails I get are, I've got three kids, two daughters, one son, one daughter, a pen, one daughter in PR in Chicago. And my son is in the basement playing video games and vaping and he's just having a much tougher time. So that has changed the dialogue 180 degrees because the people initially having the dialogue five years ago, it was kind of thinly veiled misogyny. It started fine. Take responsibility for your actions, be fit, be action oriented and buy my class on trading crypto and make sure your woman never goes out to the club alone and she should be in support of you. It just, it got really ugly really fast. And so I think there was an understandable gag reflex when I started talking about this five years ago. Well, I think too, I think, you know, it's difficult for like people get so entrenched in their ideas about things. And I think. When people like you start to talk about things that are, that challenge those existing paradigms and are a bit iconoclastic and they're thinking like there's always, you know, faux outrage or whatever, but then what happens is, you know, the conversation starts to change. And I think you do that all the time. Yeah, I hope so. It definitely has gotten, it's definitely gotten a lot more, I think a lot more productive. Even governor Newsom just announced an initiative to focus on young men. Governor. Governor Moore out of Westmore out of Maryland has said that the focus of his administration is going to be helping boys and young men. If they'd said that five years ago, there just would have been, oh my gosh, the, the, you know, it would have been, it just would have been unthinkable for a Democrat to say that five years ago. So I think the dialogue's gotten a lot better, a lot more productive. Do you think that it's acceptable now to talk about boys and men because, you know, we went, way too far to the left in terms of like, is this a, a correction? I don't think it's a correction. I don't. So for example, this, this thing on the far right that women were told to be economically viable and now it's a disaster for them that they're alone and depressed. I've never bought that. Like what's the option to be potentially alone and broke? Like women, women, I mean, I've always thought that that's just a thinly veiled attempt to take us back to the 50s. Where white men got disproportionate advantage, but we're just not going back there, nor should we? And I think women's economic viability is hugely important. It's not going to help a man's mental health if his household is that much poorer because his wife isn't working, you know, economic viability is a, is, is a wonderful thing. Women's economic ascent is a wonderful thing, but what we have to also acknowledge is it does create some externalities and some problems. It's still worth it. But we've ripped up the script. Instead of women can be anything that's great, but we've also said to a man, all right, you're supposed to be the provider and now you're known to have as many on-ramps to be a provider and you're not being the provider. There are 3 million men, or I think approximately one in seven men now are now considered what's called a NEET and they're neither in education, employment, or in training. They're basically doing nothing. One out of three men under the age of 25 are living at home. One out of five men at 30 is still living at home. More so. More single women own homes in the U S than men. Fine. Women in urban areas are under the age of 30 and out, out earning men. Fine. These are all great, except basically we have to struggle with the fact that men get a ton of their self-esteem and worth from their economic viability. Maybe we can work on that. And women don't seem very attracted to these men. And I think that's going to take thousands of years to fix. I think that's an instinct. And regardless, I mean, I look, I'd say to my boys, I like to shock them because they're so goddamn woke. But I say to my 18 year old boy who's just started dating, you know, he's talking about a date and he was upset because they all split a check. And I'm like, whenever you're in the company of women, you pay because dad, that's so boomer. I'm like, no woman's fertility window is shorter. Men benefit more from relationships than women. The downside of sex is greater for women than it is for men. There's every mammal has a courtship process where a man's supposed to demonstrate valor and easy way to recognize that. I assume. And I'm like, okay, fine, but just be clear. And I believe this, regardless of what the Atlantic or the New York Times says, anyone you split the check with is not going to kiss you. They made me down with it and it's fine. And all the body language is right. And this was great. You will never be physical with that person. So I'm like, just be clear. If you ever want, expect to kiss somebody, you do not expect split the check with them. And that triggers and upsets a lot of people. Then I'm going back to an older age, but I think these instincts are really hard to screen out. And I think we should just look, how do we shape them such that they're more aspirational? And a lot of people say, well, it's whoever asked who, who out. I'm like, I get it. That makes a lot of sense. But 80% of women still expect the man to initiate romantic contact. I go out and I don't have data around this, but I have anecdotal data around this. When I'm in a social setting, I hear several times guys come up to me and they want to talk about this stuff, but so do women. And the thing I hear most from women when they're in a social situation is I'm out, I'm single. I'm ready to mingle. I look amazing and no man approached me ever. They don't even try. They don't even come up to me. And so men have gotten a lot of mixed signals around, you know, the reality is the difference between a romantic moment and a creepy moment is the perceived attractiveness of the person who initiates it. Yeah. And men don't want to be that guy. You hear stories. You hear stories about the guy makes an approach at a bar. They're out social. He's indelicate. He's not good at it. It's awkward. He leaves. And it ends up they both work at JP Morgan and she complains to HR that this guy is a creep. And basically, HR said, you know, you're out in the wild. He didn't do anything wrong. Just, you know, go back to work. But he's now that guy. And I think young men, you can combine with mixed messages they're getting from society. And then. Quite frankly, they think, why am I going to go through the potential humiliation expense, demonstrate kindness, have perseverance, follow up, shower, for God's sakes, when I can go home and have synthetic lifelike porn. So I worry that we're literally going to start seeing fewer and fewer young men out in the wild because they'll have decided I can get all my friendships online on Reddit and Discord. I don't need to go into work. I can try and trade stocks or crypto on Coinbase. Or on Robinhood or bet on who's going to win mayor in New York on Kalshi. And why would I go through the incredible hassle of trying to establish a romantic and sexual relationship when I have porn that every day gets better and better and better? And I just find it very depressing because when I think about. And I know there's the most rewarding thing in people's lives. If you really distill it, it's their relationships. And the only thing the relationships have in common is that they're the really important ones. The relationships are really hard. It is hard to have a loving, productive relationship with your kids. It is hard to maintain a monogamous relationship with a partner. It is this this shit is hard and that's why that's why they feel so much like victory and you feel such a sense of purpose when they work. And I think a lot of men have been told you can have a reasonable facsimile of life on a screen with an algorithm and they're just not developing those skills. And when a woman doesn't have a relationship, she oftentimes pours that energy. Back into work back into our friend network. She's better at finding other places to fill that void of love men when they don't have a relationship. Oftentimes pour that energy back into online conspiracy theory, misogyny, porn, video games and some men need relationships much more than women. They need the guardrails and we have this what I call indomitable foe trying to suck them out of society every day and their immature brains are much more prone to that. Constant dope of feed of, you know, of online gaming, online porn, online conspiracy theory. I mean, they just seem to be they just go down these rabbit holes much quicker, much faster than women. Right. So but they're like, as you as you said earlier, there's this there are whole system like the the most profitable companies in the world. They're incentivized to keep this going right there. They want men. They want men in the basement. Right. Yeah. I mean, they profit so heavily off of it. I guess, you know, there are there sort of like how concerned are you, I guess, about that subset of boys. Right. Because you're talking as well about the JP Morgan analyst who's in a bar. OK, that's sort of but he's still out in the world. Right. He's going to an office every day. Yeah. And so he's having interaction and friction. And that's kind of one cohort. And then you're talking. You're talking about this other cohort of boys like the lady in Chicago whose son is in the basement vaping while her two daughters are are out in the world. I'm wondering, like, you know, and sometimes, you know, in following your work, you can catastrophize things, I guess. But really, like, are you how concerned are you about, you know, given given the economic incentives around the Chicago lady's son in the basement? Like, how concerned? How concerned are you about that growing group of boys? I think that's probably the biggest issue. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of factors. We talk about economic, sociological, also men my age aren't stepping up. There's three times as many women applying to be big sisters in New York as there are men applying to be big brothers. So a lot of men aren't stepping up, but big tech, I think if you were to kind of allocate the different factors driving this crisis, the biggest one would be big tech. And that is, I mean, supposedly one in three people under the age of 18 is now officially in a, in a synthetic relationship. They're getting therapy, friendship advice, sexual stimulation from a synthetic character AI. And it appears that boys, as they grow older, don't grow out of it, or that young men are more susceptible to this constant DOPA hit that they can get from, from online. So I think that, I mean, one, no phones in schools. My colleague, Jonathan Haidt has done, I think he's the most influential scholar in the world. I don't think there, I think synthetic relationships should be illegal for anyone under the age of 18. I think we need to do a better job of educating pornography for men under the age of 18. I think we need more. I mean, there's a lot of common sense solutions here. I think we need to remove 230 protection for big tech, for algorithmically elevated content. So if they're constantly elevating conspiracy theory or really incendiary content, beyond its organic natural reach, I'm not talking about censorship, but then they become an editorial platform and they should be subject to the same standards you're subject to. If you said something that was blatantly untrue and it resulted in kids self-harming, this podcast would be in a lot of trouble. But so I think we need to regulate big tech. I think there's a lot of things we could do economically to restore a progressive tax structure and get, put more money in young people's pockets just as a lack of economic viability for all young people, disproportionately hurt young men. Raising all boats amongst young people economically, I think will disproportionately help young men. I think the universities need to expand their freshman class size, fasten the population growth or lose their tax-free status because then they're no longer public servants. They're hedge funds with classes. I think we need to red shirt boys, start them at six in kindergarten, start girls at five. The boys are just less mature, full stop, more vocational programming. I'd love to see mandatory national service where kids from different sectors, different social orientations and incomes realize that they're serving in the agency of something bigger than themselves. So I think there's a ton. I'd love to see universal childcare. I think that would benefit men immensely because to live in these expensive areas now, you need two incomes. And if we were talking about suicide earlier, the zone of suicide where a man is most likely to engage in self-harm is the year after he gets divorced. He loses his primary relationship and sometimes access to his kids. And the reason why young people get divorced, I don't think it's infidelity or lack of shared values. It's not, it's economic strain. So if we could relieve some of the economic strain on young people, I think it would benefit all of them, but would disproportionately benefit or level up young men right now. So I think there's a series of, this is what's so frustrating for me about this. People talk about this and they get, the incumbents weaponize the illusion of complexity that these problems are so hard to understand. If you put more money in young people's pockets, it's going to help a lot. A lot of this anxiety is coming from a lack of, they can't afford a home. They can't afford to go to college. They're not attractive to mates, especially men when they're not economically viable. So let's make them more economically viable, right? And then some policies that address putting more men into K-12 schools and also giving people a chance to get out. I think it sounds like your son is about the same age as mine. I think two years in national service would be enormously beneficial for, for my son and the country with the lowest levels of young adult depression is actually Israel despite all its existential threats. And I'm convinced it's because they all serve in the IDF. And I've met with an IDF battalion. It's all these beautiful young men and women fit outside huge responsibilities, learning how to handle equipment, learning that the key is character and grit, not your identity. There's nothing like being in a foxhole that makes you appreciate someone for their true skills and character. And you don't care. You don't care about their sexual orientation or who their dad is and they meet mentors. That's by necessity there, right? Like there's no, there's no incentive to do that here. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think we would benefit from that mandatory national service and it might not, it doesn't need to be the military. It could be working in a dog shelter or senior health. No, I agree. And I think, I think, I mean, I personally think that the public school system needs to be completely overhauled to support different ways of learning to, you know, I think they should be open from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. They should have three meals a day. You know, they should do what Germany does and recognize like if a kid is, you know, not going to go to Harvard, like that they should put them on a different track. Like I, I, I, it's, it's always astonishing to me why we don't start there. It's like it's daycare, it's education, it's socialization, nutrition. I, I don't get it, but, well, to your point, I mean, the stats around this are extraordinary. So a public school in the U.S. spends $15,000 per student, a public school in a poor neighborhood, it's $8,000 to $10,000. An elite private school, similar to the one my kids go to, and probably your kids go to, spends on average $75,000 a year on that kid, 50 to 60 in tuition. And then through gifts and fundraisers and, you know, charity events where they auction off dinner with Gwyneth Paltrow. Oh, I'm aware. They, they spend $75,000. So just look at it this way. You have an education institution in the United States, and with poor kids, we give them, we invest $120,000. And rich kids, we invest $900,000. And what do you know? On average, the kids who get an incremental three quarters of a million dollars invested in their education, score on average 370 points higher on the SAT than poor kids, and are 77 times more likely to get an education. And we're like, we're like, what's going on here? It's like, no, it's, we know what's going on. It's, it's resources. It's so, and also, I mean, if we were going to try and change anything in the education system, we'd want to de-link property taxes to funding. Cause what happens is the wealth of a public school is based on the tax base. So I agree with you. K through 12. It's interesting. K through 12. It's pretty weak in the U S and yet we have the most elite. We're the best in the world at college. It's kind of strange that we're so good at one and so bad at the other. So like in absence of net, you know, a mandatory program or mandatory service, like, so it seems like essentially what you're saying is like that men need some kind of right of passage, right? They need some sort of like some sort of design in order to help them become men. So like in absence of that, what, if you could, you know, a right of passage that, that, that didn't involve those things. Like, is there anything, you know, I'm just thinking about like individual households or, or communities, like how would you design it? It's a really interesting thought. I can think of programs around education, national service, tax policy, vocational programming. I can think of individual programs, but this notion, this notion of the right of passage, like a bar mitzvah, or when you turn, 18, or you graduate from high school or college, or, you know, you become a man, supposedly when you have sex, I don't think any of those are what I'd call the real right of passage. I think there are a lot of people born as males who live 80 years, die and never became men. Yeah, I agree. The way I would describe it is, and I parrot a lot of this from my Yoda on this topic, a guy named Richard Reeves from the American Institute for boys and men. I think the, I think when you, when you become a man is the following. And I try to tell my boys this, it's when you get to a point of surplus value. So I say to my kids, you're, I say to them, I'm like, you're total negative value right now. We have a school spending so much. There's so many talented people and so many resources being poured into at school. You're giving nothing back. Your mom and your dad spent so much money, time and love and affection on you. We don't get as much back. I mean, yeah, kids greatest thing in the world, blah, blah, blah. We, we don't get as much back as they're getting. That's the whole point. At some point when you become a man is when you get to a point of surplus value, you're creating more tax revenue than you absorb. If you live in the United States, you're absorbing 20, $30,000 a year in government support. Just by, if you want to call 911 and have someone show up, if you want people to defend your borders, if you want to be able to go to national parks, travel on roads, you're absorbing a lot of tax revenue. One way to add surplus values, you create more jobs and revenue than you absorb. Another way is you provide more care for other people. People that are provide care for you for you. You absorb more complaints than people complain to you. You, you take care of more people than the care you've absorbed. At that point, you're adding surplus value. You notice people's lives. You're the guy that makes people feel better and feel safe. And even little things like I used to be the guy that when I got caught off in traffic, sped up and cut him off to restore balance to the universe. And then I realized, or if the Delta, the ticket count, you know, agent, that Delta counter didn't afford me the respect as a global one K member I deserve. I'd get in her face. And I think real men say, okay, the opportunity is to add more value than you're taking. And you don't know what's going on with that person's kid and occasionally take some blows. So I think that when you're adding surplus value, your relationships, you bring generative value to your relationships. And I didn't learn this. I don't think I would qualify as a man until I was in my forties because I approached all my relationships as a transaction. Am I getting as much out of this friendship as I'm giving? Are my employees generating more value than I'm paying them? Is my girlfriend spending as much time with my parents as I spend with hers? And that is not the way to live. And it's also, I think it's totally anathema to this idea of masculinity. The whole idea is that you get to the end and you've loved more people that have loved you. You've created a ton of economic value while not absorbing, or you've created more than you've absorbed. You've noticed more people's lives. A lot of people feel safe around you. And the ultimate expression of masculinity is you plant trees, the shade of which you'll never sit under. So I like the idea of surplus value as being not a rite of passage, but the litmus test for when you think, or you'd like to believe you've become a man. And so I'm curious about, I understand the jobs piece and the giving back piece. I'm interested in the not cutting people off and traffic piece. How would you define that? Is that like a perspective? Is it a forgiveness? What is that quality of masculinity? It's just grace. And I think of some of the characters, I'm not saying don't, everyone should have a code and certain borders and lines and boundaries. And when they cross them, I don't think being a man is a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's having a code. And there's just certain things that are non-negotiable for you and certain ways you behave. But what I have found is that the biggest unlock for me personally, and this extends beyond masculinity, I had a weird relationship with my father. He wasn't very involved in my life. He left us when I was eight. And I used to have a really difficult time. And he died recently, no? Yeah, he passed away at 95, long life. But I used to go, months, sometimes a year without speaking to him, because I used to get very angry and resentful as an adult that he wanted to be in my life and he wasn't in mine, or wasn't in mine to the extent I would have liked. And what I realized- Or didn't do it in the right way or whatever. You know, let me put it this way, did it better than, treated me better than his father did to him, treated him. So that's the primary instinctual box I think every father and mother has to check. But I would go months because not speaking to him, because I think I'm not going to be a better son than he was a father to me. And the big unlock for me is that I'm not going to be a better son than he was a father to me. And that's the whole point. The whole point is to say, all right, what kind of partner do I want to be? What kind of investor? What kind of co-worker? What kind of boss? What kind of friend? What kind of boyfriend? What kind of husband? What kind of son do I want to be? And once I realized, I just want to be a loving, generous son and not anchor it to his contribution or lack thereof. It was like this enormous unlock for me. And I've had a wonderful relationship with my father the last 20 years because I just wanted to be a generous, loving son. And I just wanted to be a generous, loving son. And now I don't think about my relationships as a transaction. Am I getting as much out of this friendship? Well, that's the point. The point is there's a lot of studies on happiness. I wrote a book on it because I struggle with it. And the happiest people are the ones that figure out a way. It's not the ones who receive the most love. They're happier than people that don't get love. But the happiest people in the world are the ones that form the most relationships and have the opportunity to provide love. And the moment I got out of this mindset of always getting a return on investment from all my relationships, it was just a really nice unlock for me. And I think also having kids brings you there because it's impossible to have a net positive relationship on a day-to-day basis with your kids. So that for me, like approaching stuff from what I'll call a surplus value standpoint was a huge unlock. But I do think this notion again, your point as a man is occasionally you don't have to always have the last word. If someone says something unkind or rude to you, you know, occasionally you can just take it. You can take some blows. That's okay. Ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter. That's why understanding your treatment options matters. Discover what's possible with Trimphia. Gucelcomab. Trimphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them in liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Talk to your doctor and explore what's possible or call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Trimphia and visit TrimphiaRadio.com. Shag here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online? and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shag. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shag. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10 once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shag. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. For the mothers listening, like, what would you say in terms of, like, what are the most critical things that we can instill in our boys, you know, in order to grow up more in this model or how to avoid, you know, kind of the, all these pitfalls that we're currently experiencing culturally? Well, in general, in this issue of just parenting, we overprotect our kids offline or protect them online. Like, something like half of kids by the age of 12 have never been allowed to walk down a grocery store aisle alone. And yet they're on these platforms where 50-year-old men are commenting on their physical appearance. So I would say that my parents' biggest fear was I was going to get into too much trouble. My biggest fear is my kids aren't going to get into enough trouble. I don't believe in tracking your kids. I think it's important. I tell my kids on a night, I need them to go out. You know, I'm like, you need to get out of the house. I don't, you know, I don't, I used to leave my house Saturday morning with a Schwinn bike, 35 cents in an Abizaba bar, and I was gone for 14 hours. And if it got to 10 PM, my mom might start calling neighbors, but my kid's 15 minutes home from school in London and we call fucking MI6. I mean, we got helicopter gunships searching for the kid. And I don't think that's a good thing. What I'd say the one thing I would say to a single mother is that it's really important that you get men involved in your boy's life. There's just certain things, boys just respond on certain levels to men in a way they won't respond to a mom as talented as she is and as extraordinarily important as she is. So I would just say to a single mother with a boy, make sure that there are men involved in his life. And to the extent that there are men involved in his life, to the extent you can, try and get them as involved in as many activities outside of the house. Because if they're inside the house with broadband, they're just going to find a lot of cheap dope that's going to be very seductive. And I offer my kids the most extraordinary opportunities outside of the house because we're privileged. And they'd still, quite frankly, rather, I think if my son, if I think if I said not anymore, but my 15 year old son, I think if I'd said to him a year or two years ago, you can do anything for the next 48 hours, anything, no judgment. He would say, I want to go put on diapers and not even go to the bathroom and just watch TikTok until I collapse. And I'm that, I joke that when my kid, you know, he started doing this stuff. I don't know if your kids have done this. He goes, he says, he's not, he's like, I got to go to the bathroom and, you know, slips his phone into his pocket. And a half an hour later, he's still in the bathroom claiming, oh, my stomach's bothering me. But my kids are, and me, and they see me, we're all addicted to our own stuff. And I'm like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, goddamn phone. So do anything you can to break that cycle of addiction. I think sports is great. Unfortunately, now sports takes money, church group. But also the thing, I think what's also, you know, there's a disparity in that, like boys that are naturally good at sports, right there, they get, you know, scooped up for this team or that team, or they have that interest. And it's, and you know, there's like my, my son was more into, he, he, he was a swimmer and he was a really good swimmer, but he, he hated competing. He's you know, as I mentioned, he's a sensitive kid. He, so he, luckily he liked things that he could, where he could compete against himself, like skating and surfboarding and things like that. But it kind of seems like the boys who aren't sort of funneled naturally into sports get funneled into this more internal online thing, which of course perpetuates the problem. Men between the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less time outdoors than prison inmates right now. Is that so? Yeah, it's very strange. If, if left, if left to their own devices, a lot of men just don't leave the house now. Oh my God. The temptation of these relationships is, and I mean, look you've put a casino a porn site an arcade netflix the high school cafeteria you've put it all in their pocket or on their computer and the visual stimulation now video games it's just so extraordinary and you can play with other people and video games i don't actually i don't think as bad as some of the other stuff because there's multiplayer and they have objectives as a team etc but the temptation to just stay at home and get that constant dope ahead from all sorts of different receptors online is just more tempting than going out and doing stuff and you know if i could like hug america's youth especially men or boys and communicate one message it would be you got to trust me on this the fear anxiety and loneliness you will ultimately feel spending a lot of time online is so much greater than the fear of anything you're going to be able to do in your life you're going to be able to do in your life that lays out there outside of that room and that your happiness your productivity your wealth your relationships the likelihood you're going to have sex is all inversely correlated to the amount of time you spend on a screen a screen will make you poor less attractive less likely to have a relationship nothing wonderful is going to happen to you on a screen and we have to start training our kids like i have this app now i shut off my kids to tell them what to do and what not to do and what not to do and what not to do and what not to do and what not to do you have to start training our kids like i have this app now i shut off my kids to tell them not to be online it's just stupid that's how they get their homework and that's how they communicate with their friends that's how they socialize i get it but what i say to them is like okay you come home this this hour or two is for homework if you're not playing sports you need to do something else and i shut off or we shut off i'm using the we a lot basically my partner we shut off their apps for a certain amount of time because i can see it with one especially one of my boys after he's online for a little his brain gets wired and he needs that cycle of dopa to keep spinning even if it means hitting his brother or screaming at his mother he just like needs that constant action reaction even if it's unproductive activity so you ask me what mothers can do get men involved in their lives if there aren't a lot of men in their lives and quite frankly program them such that they're out of the house as much as possible can i ask you what feminine quality of yours or just in general that you think it is important to cultivate and in order to become a better man i was i just did this podcast tour with kara swisher and we had seven cities and seven nights and the most rewarding part of the gwyneth was i got i was in la and i brought a couple of my mentors in when i was 13 the stockbroker took an interest in me and gave me a lesson in the markets and i used to call him every day from emerson junior high school at the pay booth and talk about my stocks and go to his office and hang out with him and in addition to that i had a lot of time with him and in addition to just having a impressive man take interest in my life i've been in the markets my whole life and it has served me really well from an economic standpoint and the other person i highlighted was my best friend's father stepfather paul met adam's mom when she was 30 he was 23 they were in law school together she had two kids from a previous marriage and they've been married 55 years and in the last 10 years and this guy going into something out of like 70s films super handsome always had a you know had the hottest cars 240z then a porsche and a ferrari great provider baller professionally first guy that ever took me and adam to work out quiet stoic just a really he used to have all his guy friends over for monday night football was the first time i drank a beer i mean kind of like the cliche masculine stuff the last 10 years he's been taking care of his wife for 55 years he's been a sole caregiver in a situation where 99 of us would have decided that you know she'd be better off in a home she's really struggling and i just find it so inspirational and i i struggle with like all right what's masculinity what's femininity what are the attributes of a man versus a woman and and sometimes i'm like i hear myself i'm like these aren't necessarily attributes of masculinity femininity but just of humanity and we're finally recognizing the emotional labor women are bringing to the table in the house they're more empathetic my my partner can hear my kid get up at three in the morning i will sleep right through she just has she just has an innate sense of when she'll say to me our oldest son out oh something's wrong he's not doing well i'm like what what are you talking about he's fine and then we find out the next day that he had his heart broken or i mean she just so we're finally recognizing the skills and importance of the emotional labor that women put in and i think there's a role for men to say all right at a minimum i've got to work really hard on my marriage the best thing i think you can do for your sons is be really good to your their mother and stay married unless it's really toxic and then being a caregiver like this guy's been such an outstanding role model to see this guy who's like for lack of a better term a total stud and has decided that his job now is to take care of his 85 year old wife it's just so inspiring and so human so i think that we need more male role models like that because i think the natural inclination is the thing i've often said i wish i had daughters because who's going to take care of me that sort of perpetrates this cycle of expectation that women are the caregivers so i like the idea of somehow injecting this notion of protection extends to being a caregiver and that that is actually not a feminine thing but a masculine thing but i'm really questioning like to what extent can i outline attributes of masculinity while not will not recognize that sometimes the attributes more commonly associated with women like it's a wonderful thing when a man takes on those things as well i actually was fortunate enough to listen to that chapter listen to you read that chapter when i was in the car and it was amazing you know you you tell in a very emotional way such a beautiful story okay can i ask you one last question that's off topic okay from where you sit right now how do you think i'm doing with goop i know almost nothing about goop other than you charge an outrageous amount of money for basic shit so kudos to you but it's ultra like you're my understanding is you're a lesson in branding and there's very few people of your celebrity that have managed to pull together usually they start something it gets to a certain point and then they sell out to a bigger player and i think that's a really good point my sense is you have a feel for merchandising and are i don't know i my sense is you're killing it i don't i think you should be mentoring me around this stuff i don't have a lot of advice for you i think i think you're doing just fine i think you've tapped into something and you've you've managed to do i mean the reality is hollywood is highly sexist right a man can be a leading man at 70 and you know unless you're meryl streep it just gets harder and harder for women as they get older and i think that's a really good point i think you're doing just fine i think you've tapped into something and you've you've managed to do i mean the reality is hollywood is highly sexist right a man can be a leading man at 70 and you know unless you're meryl streep it just gets harder and harder for women as they get older and my sense is you've managed to take your celebrity and your footprint and combine it with other skills and build you know really not a really nice business for yourself i think you're anyways i my sense is you're killing it at least at least from a perception standpoint so i don't have any advice for you okay well thank you very much tell me what to do i'm the one that you tell i get the sense your worst day is better than most people's best days there are also lots of you know complications in my life but i'm glad that you perceive it that way i can't help it what is the biggest issue and what is the biggest piece of friction in gwyneth paltrow's life right now in a work sense or in a personal sense yes in a personal sense i i am really struggling with my kids not all living under my roof anymore because they've left the house or you are mixed marriage no because they've they've left and it's sort of really upended my sense of identity and it's it's just i i guess on on some level i'm i'm surprised by how much it's upended my life and i would have thought like oh you know i'm i'm like therapized and i'm in touch with myself and blah blah blah and i'll get through it so that's probably the hardest thing because also this is now the second year where they're all gone so i would have thought that i would have made it through it more progress by now i have a senior in high school and i'm dreading that what's interesting is it's awful yeah it's interesting his mom's looking forward to it she's done i'm really dreading it i i just like knowing he's in the house it just makes me feel more calm and more at ease me too but do you have any advice i mean i'll be interested to see what your how your wife actually feels i do know some women who feel incredibly liberated by it and i my sense is like the people who are dreading it do are are stunned by how bad it actually turns out to be i mean i think sometimes it's darkest before it's pitch black exactly well that's inspiring i know well listen it's not like you're you're you're you're fucking mr doom and gloom over there i am but that's my job you're goop you're going to the paltrow you're supposed to make us feel better i mean i guess you know and but you have a younger one too right so you're not empty you're not going to be empty yet yeah i got him for another i got him for another three years so so that's i'm that's that's a good but i because that becomes a very unique and special time that is also I never could have anticipated because I never, you know, it was the first time it happened to me. And that was really magical. So you'll be okay there. But when they both go, I think just, I think understanding that it's real grief and that it's like, you know, it's sort of, it is the death of something. It is the death of that structure of the family. It is the death of you being a father in that particular way. And it's, you know, just to kind of give yourself grace around the, all the feelings and to, you know, that it's like, it just takes a minute to work through it. It's, it's pretty seismic. Yeah. I think that if my honest self, I'm a bit of a narcissist and that is, I worry that I'll miss him. But what I really hate is that it's a marker for next up death. I mean, it's just sort of like, there's just no getting around it. It's a marker for the finite nature of life. And I'm now on the back nine. I just have one more question for you despite that. I like hijacking other people's podcasts. What's the one professional box you haven't checked? Like if you were to say, try to be as unfiltered and just nakedly ambitious as possible, but in 10 years, what box would you like to check professionally that you haven't checked? What does success look like for you now? Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I think I would like, like to have some kind of liquidity of some kind. So more money. You'd like to, you'd like to be acquired. I mean, I don't think, I don't even know if I would want to sell Goop, but I have another business called Goop Kitchen that is like a clearer path to sort of IPO or acquisition. So it's not only liquidity for me. Let me, let me just, make an observation. Okay. You were somewhat reticent to say that. And I don't want to say embarrassed. When a man says that it's a feature. When a woman says it, it's a bug. I have my whole life started and sold businesses. And I sit people down and I say, this is our business. This is the multiple. We're going to go four more years. We're going to sell it for between X and Y dollars. You own 1%. I'm, I'm quite frankly, I'm addicted to money and I continued. I can't get off the hamster wheel of it. I just accepted a speaking gig in Jackson hole. And by the way, to get from London to Jackson hole, Gwyneth, it's not easy. There's no direct flights, right? And I, I got very lucky. I've had several liquidity events, so I don't need money anymore, but I can't get off that hamster wheel. And it's a sickness. Oh, a hundred percent. And I'm infected by it. But I find that when men talk about money and their ambitions around money, it's seen as an attribute, but women are just supposed to accidentally be economically secure. They're not, it's somehow seen as unseemly. When a woman says I would like to have a liquidity event and again, that, that sexism emerges and we just assume women are just supposed to be accidentally talented. It's true. Anyways, I I'm wishing for you a liquidity event. Thank you very much. I'd also think I'd like to go back to the theater, which I haven't done in many, many years. Wow. That just seems awful to me. It's so exhilarating and it's so much fun. And it's the only place where an actor gets to like, kind of be in charge is live stuff like that. Otherwise you're at the mercy of, you know, editors and everybody else. And so I think it's really fun. So do you want to know my favorite movie of yours? Is that what you're thinking? I need to know. I wasn't, but I know you're desperate for my affirmation. Well, that is true. I think one of maybe your less commercially successful movies, sliding doors. Is that what it's called? Oh, sliding doors. Very philosophical movie. Love that movie. And I think it's, there's a real lesson about your life, your success and your failure in your life is largely not your fault. That's what I took from that film. And I've always believed that. I think that's, I think that's right. I mean, I think that I like to think that there's some kind of predetermined, you know, series of paths in a way, but that you can, you know, with, with your work and intention, you can sort of modify or change them. This was like hanging. Out with expensive candles. This is just so nice. So nice. All right. Well, take good care and thank you so much for joining me. I really like you. I really am a fan. I really, I love your podcasts and I love your rants and I love how, I don't know, you make me rethink things. And I think that's really important these days. So thank you so much, Scott. That's a nice thing to say. Thank you. And congrats on all your success. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. 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