Scott Galloway On Money, Happiness, And The Search For Enough

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That's not good. Yeah, the emphasis is on thread, okay, Louis CK, see how you do. Next one, I just broke up with my mathematician girlfriend. She was obsessed with an X. That's actually pretty good. And are you still down? Are you still down? All right, I know, I know it'll be down. I'm good. I'll tear you up. What do you call a beehive without an exit? What's that? Unbelievable. You made my week. You made my week. You made my week. What are we doing today, Ed? We got a very special episode today, Scott. And I'm going to launch us right into it here. This show is all about money. We talk about it every day. We think about it all day long, Scott, especially. The markets at their core are about the relentless pursuit of money. But by the time this episode airs, Scott and I will be coming back from vacation. So before we head out, we are pausing to think about what this money actually does for us. How does our relationship to money change over time? And will it ever be enough? Maybe a bit more of a personal episode, Scott. We haven't done one of these in a while, more of a money therapy episode. Does that all sound good to you? Yeah, that sounds really good. Permission to ask personal questions. Well, you know, I don't feel comfortable talking about myself, but I'll try and put that aside. Let's roll. Well, we're going to start with a clip that went viral on Twitter, a clip of you. And you went on this show, My First Million, which is a great podcast, Sam Porin, Sean Puri. And they asked you about your relationship with money. And this idea of, is it ever enough and how much do you need actually to be happy to feel economically secure? And this was your response that got a lot of support, but also a lot of hate pissed a lot of people off. I've been very open about this. I think not talking about your money is an attempt to keep middle and lower income homes down. Rich people talk about money to each other all the time. I spend three to four hundred thousand dollars a month. So if you take that at five million times, twenty five, I need a hundred and twenty five million to be economically secure. And by the way, when I was younger, I thought if I ever have a million dollars, I'm done. I used to think like in my twenties, if I could ever save a million dollars, I'm done. I'm going to start writing scripts for Tom Cruise films and just do whatever I want. So that was the clip that went viral. People were shocked to hear about your burn. What do you think about that statement and how do you think about the question of is this ever enough? So I haven't been on Twitter in four years, but I'm going to guess if it was about me on Twitter, if people were just super supportive and really think I'm a great guy. CARE Swishers. Someday. CARE Swish. CARE called me over the weekend and she forwarded me like someone that said something mean about me on Twitter. And I'm like, I've been on Twitter in four years. And she's like, that's probably a good idea. My understanding is I just get mulled on Twitter. Because by the way, folks, it's the life hack. The most accretive thing you can do for your mental health is to not go on Twitter. Look, I grew up without a lot of money. The biggest source of stress in my life wasn't that my dad wasn't around. Wasn't that my mom, you know, the biggest source of stress in my life was easy. When my mom got upset, it was just me and her in the household. And there was no. We were all upset. The household came down. And the biggest source of stress in our life was not that we were poor, but money was an issue. It made regular things harder. I described my household growing up affectionately as upper lower middle class. My mom was a secretary. We were never hungry. It wasn't a sob story. I actually think it was easier to be in our economic weight class back then than it is now. I went to a decent school. I went to public schools all the way through graduate school. We took vacations every once in a while. My mom had a decent car, not a nice car, but a decent car. So it's not a sob story, but the biggest source of stress in my life until even through college was money. I went to college every summer. I had to make and save $3,000 or I wasn't enrolling again. I couldn't return in the fall. And it was just quite frankly, it was just stressful. And also, I discovered, you know, I thought early on, I want to take care of my mom. In B, I want to be more attractive to women. And that's, I think, a natural inclination, a lot of young men feel. They have very paternal protective feelings about the woman who raised them. I wanted to take care of my mom. By this time, my mom had been diagnosed with cancer several times and couldn't work. And money was an issue. And so I was very motivated by money. And then when I got to a certain point, I think a lot about money and happiness. I recognized in 2017 when I sold L2 and I'm buying most metrics I was done. I think I told you this. I was planning to raise more capital because I wanted to be a billionaire. I thought, Scott Galloway billionaire just has a really nice sound to it. And I read a lot about happiness and Daniel Conman, one of my intellectual role models, has done this great work on the relationship between money and happiness and to summarize, there is a correlation between money and happiness, but only to a certain point. And then it tops out. And I had something that happens to a lot of men in the early fifties. And that is a couple of my friends died that shouldn't have. And that is these genetic, these weird genetic time bombs go off. And people who are otherwise healthy have something that just takes them down. One, it was this very aggressive form of leukemia. The other was pancreatic cancer. And these were two guys that you just wouldn't have ever guessed would be sick. They were in shape, young guys with good nutrition. Anyway. So that gave me pause and I thought, all right, I have enough money to live well. So I'm going to stop. I'm going to try and get off this economic hamster wheel. I've been able to do that somewhat. I can only modulate it and I get rid of it because I still have real financial insecurities. But what I decided to do was I was going to do one of two things with any incremental income above my number and of which I hit in 2017. I was either going to spend it. I think in a capitalist society, you can do amazing things. Another life hack is spend money on experiences, not things, people overestimate, the happiness they're going to get from things, the underestimate, the happiness they're going to get from experiences. I don't own a car. I have a couple of panories, but I don't spend a lot of money on clothes. I really don't spend that much money on things. I spend a shit ton of money on experiences. So of that, three or four hundred thousand dollars a month, I spend 150 of it is on a private plane, which gives me the ability to do things on a moment's notice and travel comfortably and professionally do things that give me a lot of leverage. Lower's my anxiety on a day when I'm having dinner with Mike. I mean, I realize this is a story of privilege, but I spend a shit ton of money and I also each year give away, I try and give away as much as I've spent. Not because I think of myself as a specially philanthropic, but I get a lot of psychic reward from it. It makes me feel strong. It makes me feel masculine. I feel like I'm nodding to many of the people and things that help me get where I am, whether at C University. California, whether it's, you know, investing in programs or immigrants or financial, it just makes me feel good. But I'm, I'm, I have no desire to build a dynasty and pass on hundreds of millions of dollars to my kids. I want to have a great time with my friends and family. I'm going to feel like I'm giving back to society. And I'm very open about the amount of money I spend. And I do think there's something I think hoarding is a virus. I think above a certain level. And again, I recognize this as, you know, isn't that, isn't that a great problem? Isn't it nice to be you, Scott? But I am in this position. And my attitude is, I'm either going to put the money back into the economy and have a shit ton of fun doing it. Or I'm going to give it away. I have, there is, I think it's ridiculous that people aggregate billions of dollars in wealth. I don't think you're adding any value. I don't think you're, I think your kids are not going to be any happier if they inherit three million versus three billion. You want, I think there is something to the fact that if you work hard, you want your kids to be able to afford a house and healthcare. I get it. I know a lot of very rich kids. I don't think they're any less happy than non-rich kids, but I don't think they're any happier. So I'm, I'm very much on board with spending a shit ton of money. And I'm very open about it. And also giving a lot of money away. But I think at a certain point, you need to try and get off that money, hamster wheel, and ask yourself, all right, money helps me write chapters, new chapters. It helps current chapters burn brighter, but it's not your story. And you need to find another sense of purpose. But I still struggle. I still have money anxiety. And it's increased recently, but I kind of a different dimension. But my attitude is if you're blessed with the right timing, the right skills, and growing up in a place like America that gave disproportionate advantage to people who looks mountain felt like me, you have one, the opportunity to do amazing things into the obligation to try and, you know, invest in things that ensure those same ladders are present for other people. But I think a lot about money. I hate it when people, when these fucking VC say, oh, I never really thought about money. I just thought about outcome. Those guys are obsessed with money. And it's been, it's been a source of, I don't call it trauma. But I have body dysmorphia. I'm constantly working out. And when I look in the mirror, I'm 6 to 190. When I look in the mirror, I think I look emaciated because growing up, I was so painfully thin that it kind of traumatized me. It made me feel less attractive, less weak, more vulnerable. So now I can never be strong enough or big enough. And I look in the mirror and think, okay, I look terrible and skinny and scrawny. And I know intellectually that's not the case. But I have that trauma and it still impacts me now. I had, I don't want to call it trauma, but a lot of the challenges, a lot of American households face around money. So when I got to having money, I, I really liked it. And I kept going. And, and, and I still keep going. But I have tried to modulate it by either spending it, putting back into the economy and enjoying it, or giving it away. Anyway, it's well sounding defensive. I think the, something that people think when they, when they, something that people thought when they saw that clip, and they heard how much you're spending a month, the reaction is, you're not off the hamster wheel. The reaction is, you are spending the more wealth you have accumulated, the more you have hurt yourself into spending. And I'd, I'd be curious to hear if that's how you feel about it. Because I think, I think, I mean, when you, I mean, just reacting to that clip, it's like, oh, wow, I guess you could spend money on, on private travel, because I guess, I guess that is great. I guess that is nice. And it starts getting you into a space where you're kind of like, what are the things are there out there? And how else can I make my life better? And what, what, what more things and what more comfort can, can, can money buy? And so how do you think about it from that perspective? Because I think a lot of people would, based on that clip, assume that you have not gotten off the hamster wheel. Well, maybe that's what you're saying. I think it's an accurate. I think it's, I think everyone has a certain level of dysfunction and addiction. Yeah. I have a lot of friends who are amazing friends, really good professionally, good with money, good, good sons. And they pour all of their bad judgment into the relationships. They've just picked the worst fucking partners. I'm like, how could someone so smart be so fucking stupid? I know people who have amazing friendships, smart, well read great relationship with their spouse, such good judgment. And professionally, they're just a fucking basket case. I think everybody has a certain amount of dysfunction in poor judgment. It's where you put it. And also, everyone has a certain amount of addiction. I don't care if you're addicted to the affirmation of others, to trans fats, to sugar, to cocaine, or whatever it is, I think addiction is a function of very healthy instincts, right? You get addicted to eating too much because for most of our species time on this planet, if you found food in front of you, you ate it all because you did know when you were going to find food again, especially sugar, salt, or fatty food. So I think we all have a certain level of addiction. It just might be online shopping, whatever it is. I try to be very cognizant of my addictions. I have two addictions, be curious to put it back to you. One, I'm addicted to the affirmation of others. And I think that's natural. Until about 100 years ago, if you were shamed and expunged or expelled from the community within three days, you were going to starve or beaten by a bear. So fear of shaming is really, really powerful. So when I get shamed or shit posted online, you spout me a lot. But I still put out tweets and content hoping that strangers will like me. And that's kind of pathetic at the age of 61. I like to think a lot of the content I put out there I'm doing for the right reasons. So I can advance the conversation and help others. But honestly, a lot of it is, I think, oh, my, my, my audience and followers are just going to love this and think I'm a neat guy, right? Or I put out pictures of me and my kids because I know my kids are much better looking and cuter than me or me and my dogs. And I think it makes me more likable. I want to be liked by strangers, which is fucking pathetic. But I understand why I have that need, why I have that addiction. And sometimes it takes me out of my head, out of my presence with the people I love, which is the definition of addiction. And that is you continue to engage in something despite it having negative ramifications on the rest of your life. My second addiction is money. I, you know, you know, this is property. I sit down with the entire team and I take them through financials with Catherine. I am trying to, I am trying to create enterprise value. I want to have another exit. Some of it is for the right reasons. I think money is a fantastic arbiter of success and keeps you honest in a business. I also, and I really mean this. I want you and the other 27 people working at PropG. I want you, I want you guys to be on a path or develop economic security faster than your parents. I, I think that's a, I have those paternal instincts, especially as I get older, but also a lot of it is I want more money and I might give it away. I probably will give it away, but I still am on the hamster wheel. I can't get off of it. Now what helps is that the hamster wheel is a lot more fun for me now. I'm pretty much doing exactly what I want to be doing. That was not true when I was your age. I hated investment banking, starting companies in the internet was really stressful, but I went for it because I thought this is the fastest path to economic security. I would say it cost me my first marriage in my hair and it was worth it, but I worked around the clock. I did have some fun, but I really sacrificed a lot because for me, the goal was economic security. I didn't want to save the whales. I didn't want to be a good person. I didn't want to be a good husband. I wanted to get to economic security so I could take care of my mom and be more interesting to other dudes and more attractive to strange women. Those flames still burn. I modulated them. I think I've been able to put them in an engine that creates forward progress for people around me and I'm trying to be more civic minded now with my economic security, but I am still, I have not fully stepped off that hamster wheel. I'd be curious, no, hey, do you feel like you're on that hamster wheel? You're at the front end. You're on the front nine. What is the relationship you feel you have with money? What about it is healthy and what do you perceive it is unhealthy? Yeah, I think I'm definitely on the hamster wheel, but part of me wants that because I think that it's motivating. I know that it would be a financially responsible decision to care a lot about money right now and to care about my professional success. I feel addicted to growing this thing. I feel addicted to making more money. I feel addicted to achieving more success and part of me is okay with that because I'm like, yeah, that's what I should be doing. That's maybe it's an unhealthy addiction, but also maybe it's healthy because ultimately it's going to lead you to good places. It's going to increase the level of freedom in my life. It's going to increase my outcomes. It's going to increase my level of stability and security. I think I'm at a place where I'm leaning into it. I don't want it to make my life miserable and then sometimes I'll have days where I'm like, I'm actually not having a good time right now, so I'm not doing things right clearly. That's something I try to keep track of. If I'm not having a base level of fun, I'm technically not living my life right. I should probably adjust something in some capacity. And that's something that we discussed the other week. I think that's the importance of vacations as well. And it's why I think it's so important to really try to make sure that you get the very, very best out of your vacations and that you take them. I think all of that stuff is important. But I do think a question that arises in my head and that probably arises in others is you technically don't really need to make money anymore. Like you're there. And so there is a question of what are you actually working, like what's the point of working at this point? What are you working for? And maybe it's related to the thing that you said earlier, which is that if you have this feeling that you're on the hamster wheel, then maybe you actually just never get off. Maybe that's hard-wired into the way that you think about the world and you feel that you need to keep doing it. But I'd be curious to hear on your end, why continue to work hard? - So the number one objective for the first 50 plus years of my life was money. First and foremost, bested everything. Not to try and find a rewarding career, find my passion. It was, how do I take care of my mom? How do I become more interesting and more attractive and have more opportunities in self-worth as a man, which I too, too tightly conflated with economic viability? That has changed for me in the last 10, 15 years. Deciding to teach was not an economic decision. I joined the faculty of NYU 24 years ago because I thought I'd be good at this and I would really enjoy it. And I made $12,000 my first year. And for most of my life, I haven't had economic security. Even when I started teaching, I just got divorced. I didn't have much money. I wasn't economically secure. And my new priority is I want to lead a rewarding life and have purpose. And what is that purpose? I want to have a positive influence on the dialogue around young men. I want to help be part of the bleach that stains from the American experience or bleaches from the American experience. The stain that is Donald Trump and corruption. And what I believe is a lack of democracy, a lack of empathy, a disregard for the greatest innovation in history of the middle class. And if that sounds partisan, I am a partisan. And I want to highlight what I think are really important issues that are positive for society with the skills I have. I think I'm not a humble person. I think I'm remarkably talented. But I want to apply those talents to relevance in promoting a healthy dialogue, the results in positive change. And money is still an objective, but it's now secondary. And I really enjoy making a lot of money. I enjoy spending it. I also enjoy it. And I'm virtue-seconding right now. And no one feels this way. I try and overpay everyone in property media. When I was year age, I was trying to figure out how to pay people the least I could without them leaving. 'Cause I wanted to create shareholder value that I could then sell and make a lot of money. Now I really enjoy what I've known. If no one ever believes they're what compensated. But in general, I try to pay people 50% more than their market, at least for the position. And I try to, I'm now very focused on being relevant. I'm very focused on my own mortality and trying to do positive things. My purpose right now, more than anything, that I've identified. And this goes to the question of how do you find purpose? Money has freed me up from the anxiety of friction that gets in the way in the most important thing. And that is really deep in loving relationships with friends and family. And then where I found my purpose was people think, okay, am I getting enough out of this relationship or this thing? That's how I approach stuff. Am I getting more than I'm getting? Or getting more than I'm giving? Otherwise, I'm not gonna do it. And then what I realized is that where you find purpose is you wake up one day and say, I've invested so much in this, I'll never get a return on it. But I still find meaning in it, which means you found your purpose. The most loyal Americans and patriotic Americans are those that have invested the most, specifically veterans. And what they realize is that feels gives them a sense of purpose. My purpose is simple. I woke up one day and realized, I am never gonna get anything resembling a positive ROI on the investment, emotional, financial, and psychological investment I've made in my sons. They're just never gonna be up to 2 a.m. worried about me. I don't think. There's no way they're ever gonna spend as much on my senior home no matter how nice it is that as I've spent on them. And it's given me a sense of purpose. I spent a lot of time thinking about how I create loving patriotic young men. And I sit down with them a lot. I talk to them a lot. I try and be, it's turned me into a better man. I think I'm better to their mother. I try to model good behavior. And I have found my purpose. And quite frankly, I'm a little freaked out right now because I'm dropping my oldest one off at UVA in a couple of weeks. I'm like clinging to my 15 year old. I'm basically following them around right now 'cause obviously, I'm freaked out that he's gone. And I feel like I'm like losing a sense of purpose. But the addiction of money and it being my number one objective, it has squarely become number two or number three. It's still on my mind a lot. I think it's a great score keeper for operating a healthy company. I think having a profitable company shows your company is adding value on a lot of dimensions. But it has changed. It used to be my number one objective, it's not. I have been approached and I'm boasting that it's true. Twice in the last 24 months by enormous $100 billion plus private equity and alternative investment funds for senior roles there. We're on a risk-adjusted basis. I would make a lot more money than I'm making now. And I don't wanna do that 'cause it doesn't sound like fun to me. There's just no way I wanna go spend a ton of time talking to a textile manufacturer about being taken private and then spend a time in board meetings trying to turn a $3 billion acquisition and pay down the debt and sell it for $7 billion and take my percentage of the carry. I would make more money doing that, I think. I like what we do. I think we're having a positive impact. I think it's fun. I really enjoy doing this podcast with you. I, the people I work with are lovely. Catherine Dillon and I are not just co-workers, we're friends. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of the people at PropG are people I've worked with before and are generally like I think really pleasant people that are nice to be around. I get huge emotional in psychic reward. Now finally, from my professional life. And we make good money, maybe in great money. I could make more money elsewhere, but that's not it. I'm gonna be dead soon. I have enough money. I want to have like, I want to have a really nice time where I feel like I'm adding value. I have purpose. I enjoy myself. The real litmus test, you were talking about you're having a bad day. When I was your age, on Thursday afternoon, I'd be like, "Fuckin' Yabba-Dabba, do it's Friday tomorrow. I'm gonna, I can't wait to hit the bar. My friends, what am I doing this weekend? Where am I having brunch? How hot are the people gonna be at brunch? How can I find a cooler place for brunch and hang around with even hotter, more interesting people?" And then by Sunday night. - Do you love hot people? - And then by Sunday night. By Sunday night, a cloud would come over me and I'm like, "Oh my God, I gotta go back "into the salt mines Monday morning." And I would literally get physically depressed Sunday night. I know long that the biggest victory in my life, and again, this is a blessing. I think that's how most people, unfortunately, live their lives. The biggest blessing in my life, I do not discern between my weekends and my weekdays. I love my weekends, I love my weekdays. I get up, I looked at my last night, I sat in my alarm. I got five hours of podcasting today, I'm doing another pod, and then I'm going to the carbon-dale rodeo to watch these, I don't say these little kid rodeos, where they put these scared little four-year-olds on a sheep until they get bucked off. It's hilarious. That is a great day. That is a great day. Does it involve a lot of work? Am I stressed a little bit talking about this stuff, trying to figure out the data on fucking SpaceX, and whether it's valued or overvalued? Yeah, but I have, that is the biggest blessing in my life. One, people who love me unconditionally, a lack of economic anxiety for the first time the last 10 years that I didn't have the first 50 years of my life, and I do not discern the difference between the weekdays and the weekends. When I was your age, I was working my ass off, and by the way, I don't think you are addicted to money at all. I would argue your approach to trying to be very focused on your professional and your economic success, I would argue for a young man in this society and a capitalist society, that's just good common sense. As much as people want to talk about, well, money isn't everything, okay, fine. If you want to live in New York and you want to raise a family and potentially give your partner an opportunity to stay at home, if in fact she wants to during certain periods of child rearing, okay, you need to make a million bucks a year. Fine, if you want to move to St. Louis and have a nice life and attend church and only make 80 or 100 grand a year, which still isn't easy in this economy, have at it. But all this bullshit, all these people who say you need to work on yourselves, and when you invest too much in your career and your career doesn't work out there, you are alone and depressed, okay, bitch, is that gonna pay for your health insurance? So I, and I say to young people, bust a move to some sort of economic security. I'm not saying you got to work, go to work for Goldman, or you got to kill yourself. Some people lived to work as I did, and some people. people work to live because they want to have more balance in their life. Have at it, but the reality is in a capitalist society, especially as a young man, and I think the advice is the same for a young woman. I think young women need to be economically secure, so they don't have to be economically indentured to some douchebag they don't want to live with. But my advice to young people, yeah, bust a move towards economic security, find something you're good at, double down on it, work really hard, invest in professional relationships, spend less than you make, save money, and hopefully you get to a point as I have where you can focus on your relationships and having a great time and trying to think about all right now, how do I actually add value and give back and recognize a lot of my successes not my fault and try and create the same opportunities for younger people. But I would argue where you are in the attitude and the approach you take, not addiction at all. For me to continue to be totally focused on money, which I don't think I am, but probably still too much, that's an addiction, where you're suffering from as a healthy dose of common sense. We'll be right back after the break, and if you're enjoying the show so far, send it to a friend and please follow us on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Support for the show comes from Upwork. If you're a seasoned business owner, you've definitely been in a position where you need to hire outside help, but here's the thing. Hiring that help often creates totally new problems. Upwork exists to streamline that whole process. Upwork is a one-stop platform to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers. You get fast access to specialized talent across more than 125 categories. On Upwork, you can browse profiles, review past work, and get help scoping the role so you can hire with confidence and get started quickly. 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No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. For free today at od.com/box. That's od.o.com/box. We're back with Profty Markets. Take us back to when you decided to become a professor, because I do think it's interesting that you made a non-economically motivated decision while you say that you were not in a state of total economic security. You certainly won't where you are now economically. That's kind of interesting. Why did you do that? Did you think that you would just give up on not trying to be, I mean, you said you liked the sound of Scott Galloway billionaire, you're not a billionaire, but you've made a lot of money, certainly several millions of dollars. And what was the rationale, like when you decided to become a professor? So I'm such a narcissist, and I'm such a huge ego. When you said several million dollars, that pissed me off, because I made a lot more than that. Anyways, we don't need to go there. I'm just trying to be honest about what a fucking narcissist I am, and how I still conflate money with character. Yes, agree. Anyways, the teaching thing was a guy named David Ocker changed my life. He's a professor at the high school of business, went back to business school, because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew I didn't want to be an investment banker, and I took his class, and I just thought it was incredibly taught this class on brand strategy and talked about the importance of yellow for caterpillar about how this color meant reconstruction and hope and capitalism and caterpillars enjoy these irrational margins and what Nike means in terms of you didn't, you didn't win silver, you lost gold and competitive excellence and how they could figure out a way to get people to pay $110 for a shoe that costs $7 to manufacture. I just thought, this is what I want to do the rest of my life. And I also, when I was in business school and I got my act together and started doing well, I thought, I think I would really enjoy teaching. And I actually met with some advisors and thought I'm thinking about getting a PhD and going another three years here and being a professor and or becoming kind of a real professor and that is PhD, 10-year-track professor. My mom got sick. For the second time in my second year in business school, she was diagnosed with cancer. And I just thought, okay, I got to make some money. I got to, this is my priority as money. And I'm 27, second year of business school, my mom is sick again. And to be underinsured in a capitalist America and not have money is a, I mean, the moment I became obsessed with money, I can tell you exactly what it is. My mom called me my second year of business school and said, I'm not feeling well, you need to come home. This is really bad. She had her second mastectomy, she was discharged from the hospital early because hospitals have an economic incentive to kick you out early. My mom is not a dramatic person. I flew home, Southwest Airlines, Oakland, to Burbank, and I walked into a situation and I'll spare you the details, but it was a gruesome, uncomfortable situation at that moment, like what I'll call the downside of capitalism, like punch me in the fucking face. And I said, okay, like sleepwalking through life and being, I don't want to call it economically responsible, but not as focused, that part of my life was over. And I became very focused on money. And that was the moment, I mean, that was, and something I think about now is like, where do my kids find bread to be productive and work hard, but that was, you know, that was the moment for me where I thought, okay, there are certain things that are out of control, but I can control how hard I'm going to work. And it just really struck me that in America, not having money is humiliating. And, you know, inhibits your ability to take care of the people you love, but that literally that was the moment. It's like, okay, I'm not going to go get my PhD because I think I like teaching. I'm not going to like fuck around and not good, good, good grades. I'm not going to, you know, smoke pot every night, I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to get serious. And because my lack of economic power was not only like, potentially going to make me vulnerable, but it had put my mom in a vulnerable position, but that was the moment. I mean, I feel like it's such an important moment because of how unfair it is. Like when you think about the constraints that a lack of money puts people into at a moment where it's a be as you say about protecting your mother and this stupid thing called money, put a constraint on the situation where you didn't have much of a choice. Well, let me be clear, just so I can not sound like I'm virtually saying that too much. I also about having a lot of money would get me laid more. I need to be honest. Um, so I had motivations on a number of dimensions, but it's also informed my priorities as I get older. I think we, and I give money to politicians who are the same. I think we absolutely need universal health care. I don't think any son, any husband should think I'm Michael bankrupt because my wife's been diagnosed with lung cancer. I just think that the amount of economic anxiety and shame felt by 40% of the US households that have some sort of medical debt. I think that's unforgivable in a society as prosperous as us. And so it's informed what's important to me. You know, one of the things I'm very focused on right now, I'm writing a book on, you know, loosely called Project 2028 about economic policies and that I think would help America. And top of the list, I talk about this a lot is just healthcare. We have to have some form of single-payer universal health care. That would be the S&P could double more accretive to the well-being and health mental health of Americans would be some sort of single-payer health care. You know, everyone should post the Canadian system or the national, the NHS in the UK. No one's worried they're going to go bankrupt if they're, if they, if their, their daughter gets MS. I mean, that's just unforgivable. So that experience not only motivated me around money. It's informed my world view. Also, as I've gotten older, I've become much more about a progressive tax structure. There's, there's just no reason anyone needs to make more than 10 billion bucks a year. Well, you don't need it. It's not going to make any happier. So why wouldn't you tax at it, call it alternative minimum tax of 40, 50, 60%. Because that additional incremental tax revenue, if it provides universal health care or, or, or, or universities are so pre-K, it's going to create a great deal of happiness for households. Will you politically, it's just a question. Will you politically motivated 20, 30 years ago or is this more new? Oh, it's more new. I, you know, when I was your age, I didn't really care about much about politics. I mean, that was a Democrat. I remember, all of my friends in the fraternity would refer to me as a pussy because I had a Mondale poster in my fraternity window and they all thought Reagan was the biggest stud alive. So I've always been a dense. I've always been, yeah, I've always been, I've always been a progressive, but it really has, I've become much more politically involved as I've gotten older. A, well, I find it super interesting, but B, I really do think that all of the things that gave me success or under attack right now, assisted lunch, pelt grants, all my companies were built by immigrants. My mom access family planning. I just, all the things that get put, you know, state-sponsored education, all the thing at affordable accessible, right, everything that put me here with you now are under attack. And I just think it would show a lack of, I don't want to be the Lindsey Graham of whatever it is I do. And that is enjoying an openly gay man while continuing to diminish the rights of other gay people. Like I find that unforgivable. I don't want to be the, you know, I don't want to be, I don't want to be an ungrateful prick and not advocate for policies and investments that have given me such an incredible life and also push back on many of the policies that are making it harder for people like myself to achieve the American dream. So yeah, it's made me much more politically aware as I've gotten older. When I was your age, I remember I think it's so sad. I think a lot about young men and mating and relationships. Supposedly, a big reason why people want to date each other is they have different political views. I could, for a life of me, I could not gun to head tell you what the political views are worth. Any one I dated in my 20s and that we just didn't talk about that shit. I mean, it just didn't matter. And I'm like, okay, great. Another reason why people aren't dating. But no, I became much more politically cogn. I don't think I voted until I was 24 or 28. I don't. So yeah, that, that is increased dramatically for me. We'll be right back. And for even more market's content, sign up for our newsletter at profgmarkets.com. Support for the show comes from Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value and fixed income is not easy. 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That's vanguard.com/audio. All investing is subject to risk Vanguard marketing corporation distributor. For generations, American companies have moved the world forward through their ingenuity and determination. And for generations, everyday Americans could be a part of that journey through perhaps the greatest innovation of all, the US stock market. It didn't matter whether you were a factory worker in Detroit or a farmer in Omaha, anyone could own a piece of the great American companies. But now, that's changed. Today our most innovative companies are saying private rather than going public. The result is that everyday Americans are excluded from investing and getting left further behind while they select few reap all the benefits. Until now. Introducing VCX, the public ticker for private tech now available wherever you buy stocks. 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I think the biggest misconception about Gen Z's politics right now is that all of a sudden they're all socialists. That is just not the case. They are embracing candidates who are offering new bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats. This week on America actually, Gen Z researcher Rachel Jenfaza joins us to separate Gen Z fact versus fiction. It's not rocket science and this is, you know, I keep saying like, young voters aren't that complicated after all. It's pretty simple. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. If you lost your money tomorrow, what would happen to you? And this kind of gets to the extent to which money becomes part of your identity because we were talking about this idea of like self worth and that's how you kind of figure out which people are valuable. And you were saying this in the sense that like you had maybe a problematic relationship with money in this regard. But I mean, to what extent do you feel that it is tied into your identity today? And does it ever freak you out? Well, if I lost my money, all my money, the first thing is I'd be tangibly less interesting. It's true. America, people think I'm much more interesting than I am. And one of those reasons is because of the other podcast and the little bit of fame we have. But also when you're wealthy in America, people people either think he's a really interesting guy or a success. I just want to know him. I mean, I've gotten more interesting and attractive almost entirely correlated to my net worth. It's just the truth. That is what it is to be a male in America. You're fucking fascinating when you're rich. Maybe you're hated, but you're fascinating. And so the first thing that would happen is I'd get the number of random outreaches and dinner innovations I get would be cut by 90%. It would massively attack myself this name. And I would be very fearful about, you know, I'm dropping my kid off a UVA out of state tuition is 62 grand. It's probably going to cost us minimum 100 grand a year. I don't have to worry about that. I get to worry about whether I'm going to the UVA versus Cal game with my friends and whether he'll be embarrassed to have me there. I can worry about all the dumb shit because I'm not freaking out about how I'm going to pay for my call it. my kids' education. If I didn't have those abilities, it would, I think I could still make money. I'm still reasonably talented, reasonably hardworking. It would enormously attack my self-examine anxiety 'cause it takes me back to when my oldest was born 18 years ago. It was right after the great financial recession. I had lost everything again. And when my kids came marching out of my girlfriend, I didn't feel bright lights and angels singing and like a life insurance commercial and automatically left them like, fuck. I am so anxious and so pissed out of it myself and so ashamed 'cause I was making all this money and I was too stupid to diversify. Totally ego maniacal, convinced by my VCs to go all in over and over. And great financial recession hits and I am broke. And now I've not only failed myself, I have failed my kid. And that paternal shame was like nothing I'd ever felt before. So the idea of feeling that again, where if I'd lost money, I would be bummed out 'cause I wouldn't get to do the things I'd love to do. I don't think I'd be as interesting or as attractive to other people. But the shit that would really fuck with me would be a sense that I had failed my family and that I wasn't living up to my obligation as a protector. That's what would really like, I mean, I was just thinking as you asked that, I thought would I rather be diagnosed with cancer or go broke? And people say health is everything, I get it. But I have to think about it for a second because I'm a very analytical person. Majority of people diagnosed with cancer, survive it and die from something else depending on the type of cancer. If I had filed a sudden, I went to zero at my age, I'm not sure I could make it back again. I know I don't want the stress of having to try and make it back again. The feeling of shame, a lot of it would be self-imposed that I wasn't a good protector or provider for my family would be just God at this age, it would just be. I think I would choose the broke over the cancer, but it's not an easy choice for me right now. I mean, I know how pathetic that sounds. - I don't think it sounds pathetic. Maybe other people will too, I don't think so. - But I'm like, with the money I have, I think I can probably solve most cancers or at least address them depending on the type of cancer. As soon as you said that, I thought, okay, would your other cancer be broke? And I had to think about it. So anyways, I don't use saying that question triggers me 'cause I diversify so much 'cause of Ed, I'm not going back. It's like that final scene in God, a great movie. The Michael Mann movie with Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, "Heat, Jesus Christ, all of you have to go watch Heat." Anyways, the end scene of Heat, Robert De Niro and Al Pacino, I have this conversation, Al Pacino's a cop, Robert De Niro's a criminal. And Robert De Niro is like, talking to my president, he's like, I'm not going back. He's like, I'd rather die. He's like, I'll die at a gunfight with cops, but I'm not going back. I don't wanna be that dramatic, but I have real fears or at this age around going back. I tell people, I've been rich three times. It's because I've been broke, I've gone broke twice. And I'm not going back again. I really don't wanna go back again 'cause I don't feel like I have. I don't have the constitution, the work ethic, and the forgiveness in myself to get back up and try it again and claw back again. And I coach a lot of my friends around money and we're very open with each other. And my fondest thing is like, dude, what are you doing? You're taking too much risk. I'm like, we're too old to make it back again. You gotta diversify. You're too concentrated in this ass. What are you thinking? But yeah, that is a triggering question from me. At your age, you could go to zero right now. You'd be fine. You're super talented, you're on the upslope. The CMBC or MSNBC or MSNOW or whatever. You know, would say, hey, do you wanna substitute for Katie Tour? And they'd pay you a lot of money or you could go to work, you know. You could, you're fine. And my age going to zero is an entirely different, a entirely different scenario. Do you have fears around going broke right now? - No, I think, I think to your point, I mean, I really wouldn't like it, but I think I would take it upon myself to figure it out. And I trust myself that I can do it at this point. But I also don't wanna get too confident about that or too cocky about it and think that I can figure it out no matter what. I mean, who knows? But no, I think ultimately, yeah, this goes to your point. I feel that I have, I'm young, I have time. I can weather up some downs and I can probably figure it out over the long term. But I would, I prefer to make it easy for myself. That would be, that would be ideal. Just as we wrap up here, what advice would you give to someone who is struggling right now economically, who feels like they're in the place that you were when you say, "I'm not going back." And who wants to get to where you are? - Well, the first is if you wake up, as I did at whatever was 34 after thinking you were rich and then again, at 44 after again, thinking you were rich and you broke 'cause you weren't diversified or the market went the wrong way on you, whatever. Partially or partially out of your control, the first thing is forgive yourself. Recognize that a lot of your success on the way up wasn't your fault, but a lot of the things that hurt you economically and professionally are your fault either. And my core confidence is storytelling. But my superpowers have been one ability to attract and retain good people, but also to forgive myself. I have a lot of friends who knew nothing but success, great business school, out of the gates for a hedge fund or McKinsey or Goldman made a shit ton of money. And then the market turns against them for whatever reason. They lose a bunch of money and they have to close their hedge fund or they get laid off from Goldman or whatever it is or they thought that they'd start their own consulting practice and it doesn't get off as quickly. And they can't forgive themselves. They get stuck. They feel aggrieved, they have a lot, loss of confidence or angry at the world. I've been shot in the fucking face and I mourn for a little bit and then I get up and I try and raise more money and I move on. That's been my superpower. I'm really good at getting up and trying again. I don't wanna do it again. But what I would say is if you get shot in the face economically and things haven't worked out, you have to recognize a lot of that's not your fault and do whatever it is you need to do. Being around the right people, forgiving yourself, but every day get up, get exercise, get sunlight, good nutrition and build a list of things you're gonna do that day to start making baby steps to get back in the game. Because America forgives people. In America you still have, I believe, more agency in America than any nation in the world and recognize that, okay, yeah, I got shot in the face, it's upsetting. Next, what am I gonna do tomorrow to like build again and forgive yourself? Because the thing you're gonna regret in your life is not what happened to you. You're gonna regret how hard on yourself you were. But I don't think there's any like algorithm or secret, silver bullet for this is how you build back. You build back by building. You get up, you try again, you reach out to people, you ask for help, you work hard. But the thing that takes so many successful people off track is they have their first defeat and they can't get up, they're literally frozen. I mean, and these are smart talented people and they're like still talking about how their hedge fund closed eight years ago and they haven't been able to raise money and they are trying his hard and they're depressed and it's just like, okay, get on with it. Get on with it, you know, go to work for a bigger fund or whatever it is or try something else. You're a talented guy, you've been blessed with incredible, and I'm saying this 'cause most of my friends are guys. You have incredible education. Maybe you aren't gonna be a master of the universe. You don't need a fucking townhouse and try Becca. You're gonna be fine with a nice place in Montclair, New Jersey or maybe you've even got for bid moved to Florida where the cost of living is much lower. You're gonna be fine, you're gonna be happy. You have a good partner or do you? You're talented, you can make a good living. So anyways, long story short, forgive yourself. When things are going really well, recognize a lot of that isn't your fault. You need to be humble and you need to diversify 'cause eventually the winds will turn against you. And when things aren't going your way and you have your fire, you lose a shit ton of money, your business fails. You have love that's not affection, that's not reciprocated from someone else. Recognize at the end of your life, you're not gonna be upset about what you're doing. what happened, you're going to be upset about how upset you were. And just next day make a list of what's required to move forward and every day make progress against that list. And don't feel any shame. Keep in mind, oh, you, you, I've had tons of businesses fail. And I was, it's like, okay, people read in the paper, the brand farm, my e-commerce incubator back by Goldman Sachs and Howard Schultz and was on the cover of Ink Magazine. It went out of business. Oh, how fucking embarrassing. How am I going to recover? No one cares. No one cares about your failure, which means if you have a good idea, they're willing to invest in you and they're willing to come to work for you again. They're not, that's a wonderful thing about America. No, no one is thinking about your failure or your success or your shit as much as you are. So why wouldn't you just get up and try again? And there's another relationship. There's another investment. There's another business waiting to be approached or started. And if you've done it once, you can do it again. And just get on it. Like, forgive yourself, learn to mourn and move on. Get up, get back to the plate and swing harder. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spenser. Our video editor is Jorge Colte. Our research team is Dan Shalon, Chris Noudonohew and the MSL Vario. Shade McPherson is our social producer, Drew Burrows is our technical director and Catherine Dillings, our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Prof.T. Markets and Prof.T. Media. If you like what you heard, give us a follow. Tune in tomorrow for a fresh take on the markets. Thank you.