6. Scott Fuller of The Studio Temporary — Discovering Design, Getting Evicted, Work-Life Balance, Atlanta Designers, and Favourite Design Books

Hey, what's going on folks? Welcome back to the Graphic Design is fun podcast. My name's Dan. Today we are chatting with the one and only Scott Fuller of the studio temporary in Atlanta, Georgia, USA. Scott is a graphic designer and illustrator. He's done work for tons and tons of brands in Atlanta, everything from Coca-Cola to just about every major sports team in Atlanta. To rapper killer Mike of Run the Jewels, just to name a few. He's a teacher. He runs design workshops, one of which I actually attended the right at the beginning of the pandemic. Virtual workshop and it was fantastic. I've been following Scott for a long time. He's a great guy, super hard worker and we had a great conversation. It got personal actually. We kind of delved into the behind the scenes. What goes into this work and some of the struggles he's been through between being laid off from jobs, being evicted from his home, some tough stuff. And I really appreciated Scott's openness and his honesty talking about this stuff. But we talk about lots of other stuff. We also talk about the origins of his studio, the studio temporary and also where that name comes from. We talk about his love of designing fonts, some of his favorite graphic design books, all kinds of good stuff in this episode. Now as always, everything we mention is linked in the description and there's a lot of it in this one. Scott references a lot of designers, a lot of agencies, a lot of books. So if there's anything that you've never heard of, you can click the links in the description and read all about it. There are also going to be links, of course, to Scott's website and his Instagram, if you want to check out his work, highly recommend it. But hey, without further ado, let's get into the episode. Please enjoy this conversation with Scott Fuller. What is the most important tool in your studio? My head, there we go, there we go. I read that I was, this was right when I started the studio, you know, I called the studio temporary as a joke. I was 10 years ago, over a little over 10, 10 and a half years ago, I started the, you know, I was in the back of an old sign shop in the middle of downtown noon, and you know, this is like one in the morning, right. I got to be up the next morning at like six to go to my job. So I'm sitting there and, you know, just as a joke, I'm like, you know, I'm going to call this place the studio temporary. That was back the time when like everybody was working in coffee shops, like that was a big deal. You know, you work in Starbucks, you're working in a dunk and you're working in all these like high end, you know, whatever type of coffee shops. And I remember a couple weeks later, I read an interview by a man by the name of Alan Fletcher, who's one of the original partners of pentagram. And he was asked what the most important tool in the studio was to answer was my head. I remember I've been getting a little bit of flack of like the studio temporary is that mean it's a long name, you know, whatever, but the moment I heard that I went, yeah, I'm sticking with this. So that's what that's definitely where that goes. Yeah, it's a great, great origin story. And it makes a lot of sense. Like I can see why people might be like, so studio temporary. What does that mean? But like this idea of like whether or not, you know, I'm in the back of a print shop or I'm at Starbucks or I'm in, you know, my, my office. That's kind of irrelevant. It's sort of like it's, it's all in your head. That's what matters. No, no, I mean, I can so funny. I almost called it backpack back in the day. I mean, literally just kind of carrying everything around in my bag. You know, it was just, it just worked. Yeah, speaking of sort of the origins of your studio, if we could take it back even further, new to your career, how you got into design, you were studying engineering originally and then switched to design, is that true? So I got a scholarship design. And when I went to visit the campus and everything like that, I, you know, went around with the tour guide, you know, going to a couple of classes, about 10 minutes into the first class, I snuck out and went to the, I went to the art department. And I had just taken my first art class ever that year, and I will just, I just fell in love. I knew that was exactly what, you know, I wanted to do. So, you know, I had done trig and physics, calculus and all that type of stuff in high school, you know, my dad's machinist, you know, so I was ready for that. But, you know, I just, I just couldn't get past that. So, I went in there, did fine art for about a year and a half, and at the end of a year and a half, I was just done, you know, I couldn't stand art, I couldn't stand just looking at something and it was like fine art, right? It's like pen and pencil, well painting, like that type of thing, you know, and it's like, I never felt like I was actually creating anything, you know, and I understand there's a whole line of thought and argument and everything like that. But just me personally, that was how I felt. So, I was about one mouse took away from just blowing the whole thing up and going back to mechanical engineering, and then I took a design class that that last semester, and that was all she wrote, I knew that was exactly what I was looking for. And was that like a graphic design class? Yeah, yeah, it was a graphic design class. I remember, I remember actually, if we go back to my freshman year, when I was still doing fine art, we still had to take, you know, principle to design and stuff like that. It was an old teacher there, Mr. D'Gange, and he was an incredible painter, illustrator, draw a fine artist, but he was a master sculptor. I mean, like, like nothing I've ever seen. And I remember he had a test that he would give during the class, and I actually give the same test. I've taught a couple of years at Portfolio Center now, and I actually give the same test to my kids. Basically, he drew a shape up on the chalkboard. In this particular instance, it was like three stairs, so just like, you know, left down, left down, left down. You know what I mean? Instead, you have a couple minutes to like five minutes, whatever to come up with is many things you can using this. And we had like a couple of folks filled up a page or like, you know, did some other stuff. I have a page, maybe if I'm back, I filled up five pages worth of stuff. And this was like my first class, right. And I remember he came through and was looking at my stuff, and he called me up the front of the room after class. And I'm like, oh, great, my first class, I'm already in trouble, right. And he calls, you know, then he said, what's your major? I said, well, I'm studio art, you know, fine art. He said, you sure about that. Speaking of on, I'm like, well, what did you think? He said, I thought you were graphic design. And, you know, then a year and a half later, I'm back, and I realized, you know, what he was right, you know, but I had to go, I had to go through that whole bit and, you know, realize, hey, that was it. You know, that was what I wanted to do. And I just, I was obsessed. I remember going to the how conference it came to Atlanta, and this is 2007 in the summer. And I remember I got to meet Chip Kid, I got to meet Steph Geiss, I got to meet all these insane designers, I got to figure, I got to discover things that I didn't even know existed. I got to meet vendors, I got to meet other designers that were local, I got to meet agent folks agencies, I got to meet just legends of the craft, right. And I did not eat, like I said, didn't even know any of this stuff existed. I remember that was right at the beginning of the summer. I spent the next two and a half months just buried in the mountain of stuff that I brought back from the, from the conference. And then that's when I realized, you know, yeah, I may not have like this opportunity or this type of education or something like that. But it's the work you put in behind the scenes that nobody sees. That's what, you know, the type of work that I'm able to put out is not as a direct reflection of how much work I put into this stuff. And that's something that's always kind of stuck in my crawl from from the very beginning. Yeah, yeah. And were you creative and kind of into art as a kid, I would assume going into fine art. Yeah, I mean, we always drew and, you know, did a bunch of stuff like that as a kid, you know, I mean, had the color pencils and, you know, bad water colors and everything like that. I did so much of that, you know, you know, I grew up in the era of like, what was it like, you know, the hot rod and magazine or like low rider and stuff like that. So I was constantly drawing like anything mechanical for buddies and doing different things like that. That was my big, that was my big bit. So I knew it was something that I loved, but I never thought that either a that I could make a career or be that such a career even existed. So when I discovered that in college, I was, I was just thrilled. It was just the amount of creation and doing something new and, you know, not just making something to make something. making something that has a purpose, a logo for a company, packaging for energy drinks, uniform designs for an NBA team, like all of this type of stuff, that has an actual, in my mind, like I said, this has actual real true purpose to it. And that was a big thing for me. So that was the thing that just kind of put me over the edge. - Okay, well, and speaking of making a career out of it, I know you had some tough years after graduating, you graduated in 2008, bit of a tough time, and we're kind of in and out of working. What was that like and how did that eventually lead you to starting your own studio? - I mean, I wanted to start my own studio from the very beginning. I remember my first internship right out of college. I remember getting a chance to talk with the founder and one of the first things that I asked her was, I want to start my own studio. How, what is the best way to really go about that? What are some tips, and what not in her answer was, oh, you're not ready. That was the first, and I'm like, I know this. I'm not even six months out of college. I know I'm not ready. That's why I'm asking you, you know? I remember I kind of, I just kind of left the little interview almost immediately after that, 'cause I'm like, this is not gonna go the way I wanted to go. And I just said that, you know, I know there's a lot of stuff to do. I know there's a lot of things to learn. Sorry, so that's it. You know, I'm my mom on, and we'll see what happens. You know, and then market crashes, you know, couldn't find a job for a couple of years. Finally, landed in a, you know, in an Apple store, stole the computer to the right guy. Got a two plus years of running the director of in-house designer to trucking company to, you know, back in Lamegan to being evicted to, you know, just, you know, didn't do a minute-man press in a subway and all these different things. And this wasn't that long ago, you know? I mean, y'all think it's just, you know, decades ago. It really wasn't. So, you know, to go from that and then finally, you know, hey, found a place for you, senior designer, moved from Noonan where I, you know, grew up, you know, lived pretty much my entire life, you know, moved up here to where we are now. And then you're in, some guy messes up at the company, you know, to the tune of about, I don't know, millions of dollars. They started letting like 20% of the company go on like a day. And I was the, and I was one of the first person on my team to get like, oh, which was a, it was like a last one hired, you know, a type of a deal. And I walked out, you know, was supposed to meet Julie and Sean, my wife and my little boy for lunch that day. And, you know, walked out carrying a box of my stuff. So, she said, if you're gonna start the studio, start it now. So, we did, that was seven and a half years ago. - Wow. - Still a lot of craziness that's happened between now and then, but, you know, we're stronger than we've ever been. The work that's coming in is ridiculous. And then just, you know, big companies, small companies, you know, big agency, small agencies, you know, folks around the corner, my buddies, you know, my buddies up the road, you know, I'm kind of getting a chance to do it all. You know, most of my career was in-house. And like 90% of my career was in-house. So, I knew that doing this, that I wanted to work on everything, everything I possibly could. Any client that I could possibly find, you know, I've worked with tech, I've worked with restaurants, I've worked with rappers, I've worked with sports teams, I've worked with conferences, you know, energy drinks, I get all over the place. The type of stuff that I get to do. And this was exactly what I was hoping for. I mean, it's crazy, you must think about it sometimes, like going from, you know, you finish school and then not too long after, you're working at Subway, you're working at an Apple store, and then to be where you are now, I mean, that for anyone listening should be so inspiring. But even if, you know, you might find yourself having a rocky star or you have low points, I mean, you look at someone like you now and you're working with, you know, all of the professional sports teams in Atlanta, all these big names in your city and beyond. It's crazy. I mean, you couldn't ask for much of a better, sort of a success story. - And success is different for everybody, you know? Well, it might be like the most amazing thing for me might be like, you know, oh, it's okay for somebody else. And that's fine. You know, the one thing that I don't want to, and I struggle with this a little bit when I first started, you know, it's like, I know that I can do this. You know, I know that I'm good at what I do. And I know this, and you never feel like sometimes you actually got that chance, that fair chance. But at the same time, it's like, well, you know what? I'm learning this in a different way. Doing things a little different. You know, my path is not going to be the same thing as everybody else's, and that's not a bad thing. It's really not. I look at, I look at, I was accepted, like I was accepted to design schools here in Atlanta upon graduation, and I couldn't afford either one of them. So in my mind, I'm like, well, great, I lost this opportunity, and that opportunity, but now I'm teaching at those schools. You know, I've spoken multiple times there. I have, you know, a mentor, I've mentored a couple of kids from there. Like it's, it all comes full circle, but you don't know when that's gonna happen, you know? So it's, you know, oh, I don't have this opportunity. That's fine. Find another one, you know? And in my mind, if I could go back and say, oh, I could go to this school and do all this stuff, or I could kind of forge the way that I did, I wouldn't change a thing, you know? And, you know, that's just hindsight. But, you know, to be completely honest, you know, I like where my stock is, you know, whether or go on there or not, you know, I kind of like where my stock's ended up. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So it's, yeah, I mean, it's not to say it wasn't hard, it's not to say that I haven't struggled with, with the repercussions of some of that through my career, you know? I mean, it's, and I've not really talked about this, but it's, it's been difficult, you know? Really since, since everything happened back in Newton with the whole eviction and everything like that, you know? I've, you know, I start to think about that, and then it's like, oh, you're using it as, you know, fuel or whatnot, but then, you know, then you start to use it in the wrong way, you know? And then you start to go, you know, you don't sleep, you don't eat, you don't take care of yourself, like, you know, stuff like that, because, you know, you just don't want to get back to that point again. And that's something that I've had to deal with, you know, more recently, you know, sitting on a talk to, sitting on a talk to somebody about that, you know? It's, it's different for everybody, but I, I don't know. I, I'll never forget that, but I won't be, I won't be, you know, controlled by thoughts of what could happen and what might happen because of that, you know, because of that whole bit, you know, back in, back in, and I won't, that won't happen anymore. And it's made things easier for me, you know, just to say, I'm past that, I'm way past that, you know? It's like, there's no reasons to dwell on that. So, yes, I've had some really rough, you know, going some stuff like that. Yes, it, you know, made me what I am today, and I'm thankful for that. But anybody who's had experiences like that, you know, whether you dwell on them, whether it's for, you know, whether it's for fuel or whether it, you know, just can't get away from that, you know, it's, it's, and it's hard because it's different for everybody, but I know that for me, you know, being able to, to move past some of that and not let it control or, you know, determine what I want to do, it's, you know, it's not an easy thing at all, but, but I'm working on it. Yeah, wow, wow. So, when, when you say like using it as fuel in the wrong way, you mean like overworking yourself, not taking care of yourself. I go with that, like I said, no sleep, no, no, I'm just, and I'm turning out good work. So, I mean, it's not like, you know, people, people online or social media and person, they see the final product. Oh, he's doing this or doing that and they see that. At the moment they find out what actually went into that, that's when, you know, that's when folks kind of start separating themselves, you know, you appreciate the final, but, you know, kind of, you know, when you start talking about what it took to actually get there, you know, I was willing to do that, you know, so that was never a question, but obviously there's some things I would, you know, wish I could go back and change, but, you know, I can't, unfortunately, but I move on and I become better, I'm stronger, I became a better, better designer, a better dad, better, you know, good husband, you know. I want to keep improving with that just as much as I do with with my work, if not more. So that's, you know, it's something that everybody's got to come to terms with in their own way. You know, for me, it's one thing for somebody else, it's something completely different. But, you know, in the end, you know, you got to make that choice. Yeah. So, wow, yeah, no, that's that's so interesting. And I'm glad that you talk about this because I want it to talk to you about, you know, you're vocal about, you know, you work hard, you put in a lot of hours, it takes a lot of work to get all the things done that you do. And you do a lot and we can get to that. But just sticking on this kind of like finding that balance, what are some things, you know, that you're doing now, whether it's like strategies that you have or what your sort of day to day looks like in terms of like still working hard, but finding that balance of, you know, still, you know, being a good dad and a good husband and taking care of yourself. What does that look like now? It's, it's just a day to day thing. You know, there's no one, there's no one thing that works every single time. You know, it's it's constantly and constantly moving, constantly changing, you know, so you have to be willing to adapt. You know, I think, you know, I'm being more, you know, when you start your career, it's you take every job, you take every meeting, you drop everything to do this and that and that. I'm not in that position anymore. So if I say, I can't, you know, we'd like to do this, want to do that. I can't meet for a week. I can't meet for two weeks. I can't, you know, this is not a project that I can take on right now. I can put you on a waiting list, but I can do that. So I'm watching what I'm doing and who I'm working with. You know, you trust your gut and you say, hey, something that I'm quite smell right about this. And every single time I've said something like that and then taking the job, it's always come back to bite me, you know, so really paying attention to that. To hiring out things that I don't need to be doing. Like I'll give you an example. I haven't cut my grass in two years. Right. I've, you know, I've hired that out. There's, you know, there's other things here and there that, you know, that we've done, but it frees that up. It frees me out to focus on creating. And then, which in turn frees me up when I'm done for the day, to be present, you know, which is something I've done a lot better on. And, you know, it's a, it's a different, it's a different thing. You know, and I know that, you know, listeners are probably wanting to talk about projects and stuff like that or, you know, cool stories or, you know, crazy stuff, but this is the reality. You know, this is, everybody sees all the cool stuff and everything like that, but it's all the behind the scenes things that that's the real reality of this, this industry, you know, it's different for everybody. You know, this is my, this is my story, you know, but I try to keep a routine, you know, we try to set aside certain days or for this certain days or for that. I don't take in person meetings on these couple of days. And it's, it's worked out really well. I mean, we're coming up on eight years. I've been running the studio eight years. I mean, I didn't, I didn't make it to one, you know, and now we're, you know, by the next presidential election or whatever will be coming up on a decade, you know, but it's, it's a process, you know, don't be afraid to make changes, you know, yes, stick to whatever you need to stick to, but don't be afraid to make changes, you know, changes that, you know, good for the person that you're, that you're with, you know, your husband, your wife, you know, whatever, it's a back and forth. There's kind of, they're asked to be compromised, you know, and it should be that way. And it's something that I'm working really, really, really, hard on. But I will say it's made some things easier and some of the work that I've been putting out in the last year to has been some of the best work that I've put out ever. So there's proof that you can, you know, still do that, you know, do the right thing, have that balance and still put out amazing work. And that's awesome. I really love that, that you share that. And I think, you know, yeah, there's probably listeners who won't want to talk about the highlights, but I think there's so, so much value in what you're saying. And, you know, just being honest about the reality of the day to day and the struggles and changing paths and trying different ideas and seeing what works. And I think that's super important to talk about. Sorry, I really appreciate that. What else you got for me? You said you had a bunch of stuff, so let's, let's keep this thing going. Let's do it. So you, I mean, I mentioned earlier, but, you know, you do lots of interviews, you do workshops. I actually went to one of your workshops. I don't know if you know, or if you remember probably not, but it was right at the beginning of the pandemic, you were doing an icon design workshop. And I do it. Was that the one with dribble or the one that I just did myself? Yeah, I was looking back and I couldn't. That had been around April, like April or May. I think it was March, March 2020. Man, that would have been, so that would have been my first workshop ever that I did virtually. First one. Yeah, man. I had done a bunch of those in person, prior to that, it was always difficult to do virtually. I actually stopped doing any type of virtual talks or workshops last year. I just said, I'm done. I can't, you know, there's something that happens when you can't interact with people, you know, on a personal level, something where you're just speaking into the mic. There's no feedback. There's no nothing, you know, and whether it's some of the work, whether it's, you know, the back and forth, I just, you know, I think I was the biggest, you know, difficulty for me during the whole pandemic, because I'm a very outgoing person. But, you know, I remember we opened up when all the shutdowns were lifted and our lockdown was lifted. I remember I had my first in-person meeting a week later. And it was just, it was the most refreshing, you know, amazing, amazing thing. But I, you know, I'm not doing the virtual stuff anymore, you know, didn't need to be in person. We need to get back to, you know, the back and forth, the face-to-face, you know. But that's been a big bit for me. But during that time, it worked out really well. Did the workshops I did dozens of those things during the pandemic, that got me an opportunity to teach at Portfolio Center for a couple of years, you know, to be able to do that. My first year was completely virtual. And then after that was, it was like a hybrid. But it was, it was great. I have to say that the in-person was more, like, it was a lot more intimate. It was a lot more, it was more successful, I think, because, you know, if it's, you know, if you're learning history or something like that, you know, you can just sit there and listen to that. But if you're learning design, you're learning these type of things, you're learning these, you know, these different types of techniques and, you know, official critiques and stuff like that, you need to be sent in front of the person, you know, or at least, you can add them right in the face. But once again, that's, that's my, that's just my opinion. But it's, um, I found some good success with that. Yeah, yeah. Doing more this fall, you know, been back to conferences and everything like that, you know, I'm really excited for next month. In about three and a half weeks, me and a bunch of buddies are heading a brand new conference in Austin, Texas. Get to hang with some of those guys. My buddy, Alex Center is going to be there speaking worked with Alex for a little while now, which has always been fun. But we've never got a chance to meet in person. So I'm very much looking forward to hanging with him in his team and just enjoying, enjoying Austin, which by the way, I've actually never been before. So, discovering a lot of things, visiting some studios, more, a lot more information to come on that later, because I'm just way too excited to, to tell you some of the places I don't want to be able to go and some of the folks I'm going to be able to talk to, but I'm excited. I'm really excited. Oh, man, that's cool. Yeah, I, uh, going back to your, your earlier point about the workshops, like, yeah, I was going to lots of these different virtual events at the beginning of the pandemic, just because, you know, what else are you going to do, right? But I totally agree with you on the, the value of, of in person experiences. And, you know, sometimes you, you got to do what, what you got to do. But if there's the option to be in person, it makes a big difference. Do you do a lot of your client meetings in person? I know you work with a lot of people in Atlanta, in your city. So I do most of my meetings in person, or, you know, Zoom or, or call the majority of them are in person. But I actually made a whole deal where if the client is not willing to either jump on a phone call with me or, or meet in person, then I don't take the job. You know, I need to have that understanding. We need to know what's going on. There needs to be a back and forth, you know? Yeah. So, um, you know, so there is that. But, um, and then it speaks to a couple of different Thanks. you know, it speaks to not just, you know, hey, you know, are you serious about this? You know, are you going to have the, you're going to take time that you need to take to make this thing work, you know, and that kind of shows they're at the beginning. And if they're not willing to jump on a phone call with me or meet me or something like that, then what's it going to be like down the road, you know? I can have, I can get more out of somebody in a 10 minute conversation than I can in a 20-email thread, you know? Yeah, totally. Free logo, every identity that I've ever worked on. There is some personal aspect to each and every one. And I've discovered this over the course of my career. So in my mind, not only is it part of what I do and my process and whatnot, but it also makes sense. There's a personal aspect to so much of this. Why would I not sit down and have a talking person with them? You know, it just makes, it just makes that type of sense. Not totally with you on that, and that's awesome that you, I mean, obviously it's so cool that you work with all so many of these like local brands and local businesses in your city. And I feel like you have kind of, you know, you're like the guy in Atlanta, you've worked with like, I mean, is there other, other, I mean, I'm not, you know, tuned into the Atlanta design scene. But would you say that there's other, other designers sort of in similar shoes to you who are kind of working with a lot of Atlanta brands? Oh, for sure. Yeah, you know, there's, trust me, I'm just, I'm a small part of this whole ecosystem over here. There are folks here that just put out amazing work day after day, you know, you got some, you got Prite Davis over at, you know, over at Mercedes-Benz you've got, you know, let me lose it Larry and then over at what is in Tucker over at, you know, Atlanta United you've got good night. My buddy, you know, Brian Steely, you know, just making gig posters and designs like that I can only dream of, you know, there's just some amazing, amazing folks to what is it to the work here, you know, I'm just, I'm just kind of part of that. But, you know, it is kind of fun sometimes to, you know, say, hey, you know, we thought of Atlanta and we thought of you, you know, I'm hearing that a little more, more and more each year. It's, it's, it's always fun. But I like being able to take that kind of, you know, Atlanta designer type of attitude and, you know, take it all over the US, you know, always fun, always a lot of fun. All right, let's, let's switch gears here real quick. You're, you're into type design. You've, you've got in great typefaces that you've made. And I love that, you know, your, your personality or I guess your, your values as a designer like shine through so much. They're very, you know, Scott Fuller-esque typefaces. How did you, you know, what, what made you want to get into type design and how'd you go about learning that? So I've always done custom type. I've always designed, you know, so much of that, you know, when it comes to logo types and different stuff like that. Even when back when I was in college, it's something that I've always done. Like I said, my dad being a machinist, you know, me doing the mechanical engineering. I'm used to very, very, very precise movement, precise measurements and actions for a very long period of time, right? So like seven, eight, nine hours, you know, working, you know, I'm doing, you know, working on stuff, my dad's shop, you know, most folks measure with a ruler, a tape measure. We measure with a micrometer, you know, they're measuring in quarter inches, eight inches, we're measuring in tens of thousands of inches, right? Like that's the type of precision and you have to do it almost just naturally, right? So when it came to type design, a lot of folks are like, man, you know, it's just the time to do it and everything like that. For me, it was just, it was natural, right? I just, you know, I did this just logo design project and I went, I went a little further, I started making this like custom, you know, typeface, the company and of course, the client said no, but I loved it. I want to go with it. Well, there was a guy, have you ever heard of retro supply? I don't think so. No, retro supplies, Dustin Lee, he's out of, out of the portland of, you know, in an ordinary, right? And he runs this amazing thing, retrosupply.com. And he and I met at a conference, I showed this to him and it was right up his alley, right? So he actually commissioned me to finish the typeface. And we did this whole thing. I was featured on good type, like all these, all these different things, you know, we made a specimen posters and whatnot. And then I was just hooked and I started making more typeface. I think I'm up to like a dozen or something right now. But then in 2020, I caught the eye of a guy by the name of Neil Summer, who runs in a type foundry called Positite. It's been around for like 25 something years. And he's starting this thing called Flourish. And it was type designers, you know, up and coming type designers from around the world. And he chose me as the US representative, which I thought was, was pretty cool. So I've learned a lot with him. I've released some new typefaces in the last cut in the last, uh, last couple of years. I'm working on the biggest one that I've ever done in my career right now. I won't be done till at the end of next year or something like that. But I'm really excited about that one. But it's just, it takes time. It takes energy. It takes thought. It takes that really, really, you know, paying attention and being precise and making little adjustments. You know, it's like, I make an adjustment to the C now. I have to make it the same adjustment to the, to the G to the J, to the OQ. But all of these in, in all these different things. So you have to think across the entire entire typeface, you know, when you're working on these things. But, um, it's been a, it's been a fun, it's been a fun ride for me for sure. One, one, one last topic, you've got a great, uh, great, great studio. I know it has moved around a little bit, hence the name, I guess, um, but a solid collection of, of design books, I've seen in these, these pictures of your studio. If you, uh, were to recommend a couple books to graphic designers, maybe specifically younger graphic designers who are, are, are getting into it and learning, uh, what would be your, your wrecks for design books. Oh my goodness. I mean, it's different for everybody. I mean, I've got stuff from CSA, I've got stuff from like the 19, you know, the 1960s. I've got everything from Milton Blazer to James Victoria to Unimark, you know, Benyale and whatnot to Malcolm Barrier, who probably had the biggest influence on my career. Um, you know, anything that Lance Wyman puts out of course, I'm going to grab, um, I recently came across kilograms first ever book from 50 years ago, I found a first edition of that. And now unit editions is coming out with a 50th anniversary, uh, bit for them, which, uh, of course, I will be grabbing the moment that that goes live, um, but it's been, uh, as far as books, you know, look at books, you've inspired, that's great, um, you know, it's different for each one. I would very strongly suggest, you know, if you're looking for a good base, looking for a good foundation in your work, you know, look, start looking like 1970s and back, you know, what I mean, like with super, with super simple shapes, you know, they make these brands that have been around for 40, 50 years, you know, um, things that I look at and just scratch my head and like, how did they do that, you know, and I look at that as a base, right? I, I see the world in shapes, you know, I don't know where that came from, but I see the world in shapes, you know, everything I look at, that's why I see that's, you know, why my, my identities are kind of the way they are, you know, it's like I said, it's different for everybody, but, you know, don't be afraid to get out of life too, you know, just constantly be looking around, looking around you, you know, stay off, uh, you know, I have, you know, don't get around there some places, I go online to look at some things, you know, and that's great, but, you know, stay off, you know, Pinterest, you know, or like some of this other stuff, you know, like get out in the real world, see what's going on out there, you know, you're, you go on these things that are curated, you know, by all the, what is seemingly cool stuff. And then it's like, well, it's cool. I'll do kind of like what everybody else is doing or, you know, what's this fat or this trend or what not like that, you know, the work that I'm doing right now, you know, and as much as I possibly can, you know, is is devoid of trends, fads, any of this type of stuff, I built, I built designs that are, that are built to last, right? I recently changed my, uh, kind of tagline from, you know, good design, whatever happened to be to an iconic design studio. That's what I'm going for. I'm building iconic brands. And I, you know, I'm enjoying that, but I got to that point by learning the basics to a crazy degree, you know, and understanding the basic building blocks that I can build in just about any style that I need to, you know, but understanding that, you know, so whatever book that that happens to be, I'll leave that up To y'all, I would absolutely suggest that you start looking, you know, you know, mid to late, you know, you know, 1950, 1970, you know, right in that era, you know, there's some amazing things right there that still work just as well today, if not better than they did, you know, all those years ago. But, you know, find what works for you and go for it, you know, the books that I get inspiration from might do nothing for y'all. So go out there, find what, find what you like, find what works for you. And, you know, make it, you know, make it your own, you know, build your build your own thing and enjoy it, take the time to, you know, to master your craft to continue to build on it and sooner or later folks going to start knocking on your door. That's beautiful. Oh man. Well, Scott, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. I seriously really appreciate it. For sure, you know, enjoy it. Man, keep up the good work, you know, the podcast and everything like that. And if you need anything, just hit me up. Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode of the graphic design is fun podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, you can leave us a five star review on Apple podcast or Spotify. It helps others find the show. So it would be very much appreciated. If you have any feedback, any suggestions or just want to say hello, you can shoot me a message at Dan Allen studio on Instagram or Twitter. If you love the podcast, if you hate the podcast, whatever you got, I would love to hear it. And yeah, that's it. Thanks for listening and we'll see you in the next one.