School Closures, Big Questions, and What Comes Next: An Open Conversation with Dr. Eric Witherspoon District 65 Interim Superintendent

(upbeat music) - Hi friends and neighbors. Welcome back to the 602 for a very important extra episode. I am Sarah Shaftle and I'm Maddie Burgers Gofield and we are burning the midnight oil to get this conversation out to you Thursday morning. It is a back-to-back situation. Yes, it is today on the podcast. We have Dr. Eric Weatherspoon, District 65, interim superintendent to talk to us about the big picture changes happening in our schools and why they feel so difficult. And yeah, they do feel so difficult. This whole situation sucks. - It really sucks, it sucks. And ultimately, what we do here at the 602, our whole purpose, our whole reason for being is to have calm face-to-face conversations that are meaningful and connective. And so while this is obviously a very tense subject, we did our best to humanize all parties involved and still ask the tough questions. - I think for me, it was really interesting to hear Dr. Weatherspoon speak directly to us because so often at the board meetings, it feels like the public comments aren't in direct conversation with the people who we are trying to make hear us. And I just want to acknowledge, I am totally not the perfect person to have been asking him a lot of these questions. But I did do what I could. I asked questions from the heart, which is what I know I can do. And I was really just present and tried to stay curious about how he would answer everything. And I was genuinely very, very curious. And yeah, this is not an endorsement of his plan or the district's plan. And we are so appreciative of all the people and organizations that are doing the good work and the hard work to kind of figure out the right thing to do and to contribute to the conversation that we're trying to have with him. - Yeah, so we're just wanna make that super clear. But we do think this offers a broader understanding of what is happening, why and where things are going from here. - Exactly, yeah, we wanted to stay neutral, but emotionally honest, if that makes sense. - Yeah, he needs no real introduction, but for those of you who are unfamiliar, Dr. Wetherspoon has helped shape Evanston schools for decades. He served as the superintendent of Evanston Township High School District 202 for 16 years from 2006 to 2022. So I was one of his students, we talk about that at the beginning. Before coming to Evanston, he was a superintendent of school districts in Des Moines, Iowa and Indianapolis, Indiana. At ETHS, he was known for his focus on equity and for expanding access to honors and AP classes. Now, after Dr. Turner's departure from District 65 last year, Dr. Wetherspoon has come out of retirement to serve as interim superintendent. The District 65 Board of Education brought him in to help the district navigate its financial challenges. So yeah, without any further ado, here is our conversation with District 65 interim superintendent, Dr. Eric Wetherspoon. [MUSIC] Yeah, this feels crazy because this has been such a tense topic, especially at Dewey. You know, I'm a Dewey, but I told you that. It's been very, very intense. And so it's a very emotional thing and the stakes feel very high. So we want to just stay calm, stay collaborative. This is a conversation where we can talk about things and we really, really, really appreciate you being here. Oh, no, glad to. Because it's meaningful for us and for the community. And we know you had a late night last night. Oh, yes. I had to, so there was a, for the listener, there was a board meeting last night, a board and community meeting last night that started at five with public comments. And I turned it off. I had to, I had to protect my sleep. I turned it off around 930, I think. What time did you guys go into? I would have been glad to go to sleep then. Yes, yeah, yeah. What time did you get? What time did the meeting break? So it was around 1030, which was actually about an hour earlier than the meeting before. But when you have something this big going on, it does result in long meeting. Yeah, there's no amount of time and it's understandable. Of course, yeah. So for our friends and neighbors listening, we do have Dr. Eric, where there's Boone District 65 superintendents, interim superintendent on the podcast today. And today is, we are recording this November 10th. So the day after the community and board meeting that took place Monday, Monday the night. Thank you. Thank you. So we have so much to talk about in terms of this proposal of closing Dewey Lincoln Wood head start at J.E.H. and the SACC, which was saved. We were able to work closely with the union on that. So that was really something very happy that we could see how about that. Yeah, that was good news. That's the proposal we're talking about. And what do you call the proposal? Is it explained to us now? So the comprehensive structural financial plan. Yeah, structural financial plan. And it will sometimes put them in the word structural deficit. But it's basically dealing with the structural deficit. Yes, it's a comprehensive plan closing those schools. So we will talk about that. However, as a guest here, every guest that comes onto our show, we first want to hear about them before personally, before all of that. We want to know your Evanston story. So what brought you here? How did, you know, tell us a little bit about your background, personally, professionally, how you landed in Evanston. And what you love about this place? Oh, my gosh. So when I got recruited for the job at FSM Township High School, and that's where I served as superintendent for 16 years. And it's been now 20 years since I came to Evanston. And so it's a deep commitment on my part and understandably why. I was recruited for the job. And I was in a month, I was superintendent. I'd actually been my whole career. I was superintendent in four school districts in three states, to an Indiana, then out to Des Moines, Iowa, and then Indianapolis, Indiana, then to Des Moines, Iowa, and then here to Evanston. And when I was recruited here, this is actually, in terms of student enrollment, by far, the smallest school district that I'd ever been a superintendent. - 202 was. - 202. - Yes, the high school district. - And it's not a typical career path, normally, superintendents, kind of stay in that same size or get go to bigger ones. I was actually in the largest school district in Iowa. It was the Des Moines public schools. And actually, it was the largest educational institution in the state, larger than the University of Iowa. - Wow. - This is a big district. - Yeah. - Yeah, big district, I had-- - And is that a consolidated district? - Yeah, it's correct. - That's correct. So it's a K through 12 district. Several high schools had over 70 schools, 44 elementary schools. - Wow. - You know. - That's pretty wild, that's huge. - A big school district and located in the state capital and the biggest public school, and actually just the biggest school system in the state, it was really very much a center of attention in the state. I loved it there. So just to make a real quick, when I got the call from the recruiter, who said, you know, would you be interested in-- I was in township high school. And I was in the kind of position in my career where I got those kind of calls pretty regularly, not unique to me, superintendents who are successful in those kind of places, you know, get those calls. But this was the first time that I said, "Evids in township high school." Yes, tell me more. - No. - I love that. And we were just saying, before we started recording, I was like, I got to be one of your students at ETHS. - Yes, for two years. - Two years, full circle moment. - For two years. - Yeah, and I remember, for the listener, I already told Dr. Brothers from this, but every day he would come on the loudspeaker and he would say, "It's a great day to be a wild kid." And I do also remember of your tenure in Evanston while we overlapped, you were very present. I remember seeing you in the halls every single day. I felt like you were a very, very present person. I was not paying attention to the politics of it all or the academia of it all. But as a student who had-- - You were just being a 16-year-old. - I was just focused on myself and socializing, basically, but as most of you are, some kids at ETHS are quite engaged. - Engaged, I'm sure. - Academically. And there's a range of kids, but Sarah was just-- - I wasn't slacking off, I was a great student, but I was definitely more focused on social and having fun. - Yeah. - But that's great. But I do remember those two things, and I know you. have been like you were a very I feel beloved person during your tenure at two. I was blessed with that. You know, the students gave love to me and and and I just loved them all. Yeah, totally. And that presence was was just so fortunate because all my other superintendencies, I was in in the district office, our central office. And now I the higher administration, the non building administration was all located as you know, in the high school. In the high school. Yeah. And when I got the job and I and I of course realized that immediately, I thought, this is wonderful because you know, as a superintendent, you don't really don't get to spend your days in the environment with the students and and and and the teachers. I do think it gives you a special perspective, really special. Oh, yeah. It's amazing. Quite an interesting perspective. And so I was determined to well, first of all, I wanted to do it, but I was also determined to really immerse myself in the school. I mean, I mean, I realized it was a special opportunity. Yes. And and the response from the students, you know, we have so many great people and so many great students here in our community. And and and and and it was exciting for me to be in that kind of a environment. Well, it is interesting too now. I do think the young people are the heart and soul of Evanston, like there are such engaged, enthusiastic, bright, capable kids here that are so inspiring. It does make me think about, I don't want to rush into this, but I'm like, I do want to touch on having the kids at the board meetings. That must be an interesting thing to have happened. It's very touching for me. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They are very invested in saving their schools. Yes. Yes. They are. And and and it speaks so highly too of because I thought of in the high school kids, how how engaged young people in Evanston can be with which just simply is not universally true. That's right. Well, Evan, we always say Evanstonians care a lot about a lot of things. Yes. And so the kids of Evanstonians are also curious. Follow, follow that path. What ward do you did you move to when you came to Evanston? I would lived in the first ward. The first ward. Yep. And and just loved it. Did you have a family of your own? Did you bring your family here? Well, we we had just become empty nesters. Okay. Right. Right. Right about the time we came here. And but it's interesting. So I have three children. I have two sons and and and then a daughter and they're they're ten years span from oldest to young. Wow. Okay. Yes. But but but the the fun part for me. So my middle child son, he was just starting his career with the Bureau of Labor Statistics. He's an economist in Kansas City. And so when I got and which was only we could drive down there like a three hour drive to go see them pretty regularly from Des Moines. And of course we moved up up here to Evanston. And and and they came to visit and they so fell in love with it. He put him for a transfer to the Chicago office. So they ended up living. So we had just purchased a condo. Could be three bedrooms, but really originally we saw it as two bedrooms and an office. And all of a sudden for nine months, they were living with us while they transitioned and tried to get their home sold and get a home by a home and all of that. So that is fun though. So so the question did it bring my family? Well yes. Sort of. Yeah. Or my or my family decided to bring themselves. Yeah. Wait. So does your son still live in the area? Oh yes. Yes. They they own here in in Evanston. They have kids who are in district 65. And and and so they they they have kids who went about the king art went went to nickels went to ETS and and the youngest of the two sons is now a junior at the high school. Okay. And what was really fun is my oldest grandson, my oldest grandchild was a freshman at the at ETS my final year there. Oh my god. That is very special. That's very sweet. And so you just you just never know how the symmetry in life, you know, that's really that has been very very special. Yeah. Very special. That's so cool. So fast forwarding a little bit. Yeah. Tell us how you landed in this current role as interim superintendent. And you know, how you see your role because it is kind of a unique thing. Right. You're in. And I think there's a lot of disagreement about what this role should do. Yeah. What what is your job? How do you think about that? And how did you decide to take this role, you know, and to kind of jump into this, given the kind of craziness of everything going on? Yes. You know, I had I had never expressed an interest in the role. Yeah. And I was very happily retired. And I'll be very happily returned retirement. I'm sure. And one of those retirees who often wondered how do they ever have time to work go to work because my calendar is full every day and so many fun things going on and and and you know, learning opportunities, all the things that that that should come with that. Absolutely. So of course, I, you know, you know, I'm online and I get Evanston news. And I was in Europe this past summer. Yeah. For most of June and and and I did see that a Dr. Turner Turner was leaving and I knew all of that never gave it much thought. And then while I was on a cruise ship on the Roan River, I got contacted by the board asking if I would come and help out. Wow. And that's pointed to position. And I knew enough of the situation, you know, how difficult it is right now in in District 65. And and so I did agree to do it. And in our state, if you do an interim, it's limited to 120 days. So so I knew that, you know, it would be for a fixed amount of time. And and I did agree to come back and do that. Is that one school year? Does that cover one school year or will that not even get you to the end of the school? No. So a school year would be like, you know, 175 student days, 180 days. Okay. Or whatever. And and I'm fact because and again, I was starting before the school year, starting July 1. Okay. And so because of that, we knew already that I that I, you know, I would only be able to stay basically for semester. Right. Right. So when does your time officially? So I'll be ending around the middle of January. Okay. So it's coming up and and and the board and all of us have known since the beginning that they would need to get another interim superintendent to finish out the year. Okay. Because when you hire a new superintendent, it's almost a given that that person's going to be have a job somewhere else. Of course. And and and so they would and and June 30 to be able to start July 1 here. Got it. Got it. So what do you in this interim role? Do you did the board say we are looking for you to do this or no? Did they just say we need leadership? Please, we know you're amazing. Please come come help us. Well, to the extent that you're comfortable. They were they were pretty clear that that that that that they understand that they're really in a financial crisis. I mean, you know, we we have a good board and we have you know, very engaged in smart people. And and so they already understood that that that the financial situation was was really not good. And and so they did ask me to come in and and help them get the district position so that the next the real superintendent would would be able to be set up for success. Okay. And not hand the new superintendent a financial crisis. Right. And and so and and I understood that and I really believe that that's what any in-arms should be. It might not be financial, but any interim. What whatever the needs are should try to position the district so that when when somebody comes in new and fresh, they have a real good opportunity for success. Okay. And so the it wasn't under the assumption or wasn't under covert or not covert to say like, we want you here. We need to close schools. We need your help with that. No, no, no, no, but you know, there's a long history as of SDRP. And what is SDRP? The structural deficit reduction plan. Right. Okay. Okay. And there's iterations of SDRP one two. Right. Sure. Yes. Yes. Yes. But but but basically as you know, it had been going on for years, numerous financial consultants in here. Yes. So so you know, there weren't a lot of surprises. Yes. But no, it was simply, you know, help us work through the financials. Okay. Okay. To that point, I know there are a lot of people that are extremely deep in all of this, but there's also maybe people listening that aren't as familiar with how we got here. Like in your own words, can you help the listener maybe understand how we reached in, you know, it's simplified, obviously, how we reached this point. Like how did we get here to point where we're in such a difficult financial position, like, what are the, what were the, you know, things that led us here? To that point really quickly before you begin with where this one, I think a lot of people when they hear that we're in such financial trouble are so surprised. Like a lot of perspective parents who would, yes, think Evanston is an aspirational place to live and want to move here, sort of people in our peer group are so surprised to hear that in Evanston where property taxes are so high and we have such a, you know, diverse and wonderful population here. How could we have gotten to this place? It's a hard question. And that we could have a whole podcast just on the history. I can speak to that. Yeah. But that's the real question. Yeah. How can this happen to a school district in a community like ours? When we have a high school right down the street with the same tax base receives the same students and is one of only 84 out of over 15,000 school districts in the nation with a triple A bond rating. By the way, we earned that for the first time in my early years, early 10 year and we maintained it throughout my 16 years and Marcus Campbell, who has succeeded me, has kept it going. So here we are right down the street, the same everything. One is actually a glowing example of school finance and the other isn't. Yeah. It goes way back here, way back. In around 2017, there was actually a referendum. It was an operation referendum. And the reason that we're given is because the school district had a structural deficit and was having serious money issues. Even then, 10 years ago. And they appealed to the community for a eight-year referendum to give them a runway to solve the structural deficit. And it never got solved. It never got solved. So the structural deficit goes back even before 2017. To the point that the district was just really struggling financially. I can't put my finger on all the different decisions and who would have been involved in them and why and all of that. Part of the reason why I think we ask is because I think people are angry in general. And I think it's so easy to want to blame one person. Right. Or blame an administration. Right. And I do think it is important to remember that this has been a problem that we have been sort of talking about in circles for dealing with and dealing with for not dealing with me. Yeah. But right. But for a long time. For a long time. And it's too bad to see when that happens in any community. Much less our community. Yes. Do you think it's mostly people, not any one person, but administration after administration a whole team of people, maybe not managing well, maybe not having the foresight, maybe not. That could be it. I think I would have to be part of the ingredients. Sure. But you know, I think it was a whole combination of, you know, the communities, number one, probably willingness to believe the depth of the financial problems even though when you go out for a referendum, you're kind of signaling. Yes. We got a problem here. Yes. But but you know, I think I think it's hard to come to grips with in a community like our wonderful Evanston. Yes. And and so I think that and I think that led to the in many ways, a little bit of kick the can down the road, like well, it'll work itself out. Yeah. What we've been doing for years now is really incrementally almost every single year, having to make cuts in order to just get the budget balanced that year. But then we end with a deficit the next year. Right. Right. Right. So that's what the structural plan is trying to get us out of that cycle. Yeah. So the plan that I put forward, which is really a hard pill to swallow. And and I know that. And and to think that we need to cut $20 million out of our budget, which is about 10% of our budget. We know things like like, you know, we are overstaffed. And when you say overstaffed, do you mean the administration? Do you mean teachers in individual schools? Do you mean grounds workers? Do you mean everybody? Probably like labor is too high. Yeah, probably less grounds workers. But yeah, we know that we for a district, our size, you know, we have much more FTE in and certificated that would be like teaching positions or or or psychologists or social workers or whatever that's got license positions. And and also in our support staff, we just know that because they're the state board of education has all sorts of comparable and everything. And they look at districts, our size and and and our budget. And and they just, you know, can say, well, you know, you're way above the norm in these areas. So we know that this is the part that you don't want to hear. Nobody wants to hear. But because of our declining enrollment over the years, this, this same footprint district was accommodating a close to 10,000 students. Not that not that many years. And now we're at about 58 hundred students. Wow. It's a pretty serious decline. Yeah, we've had a massive decline. And and and again, I know this is really tough to have to grapple with. But but our our elementary schools are are our only utilizing about 66% of capacity. Right. Now that'd be wonderful if we could afford it. You know, why not? Right. But but but our problem is that, you know, that means you spread the staff out more. We do have classes that are what we call deck. That's our our our teachers contractor teacher here. And we have guidelines for class sizes and like by let's say 21 to 23. And we do have classrooms in that range, which which is really what you aim for for affordability. But we also have many places where we have classrooms in single digits or or certainly in double digits, you know, 13, 14, whatever. It's nice. But but if you if you spread your staff all over and and and you can't fill up your classrooms, what happens is you end up with more staff that than than you can afford. And of course, you also have more principles and and and more counselors and and more librarians, not district wide, but but those those are schools where where you have them because you're simply keeping schools open that are only two thirds full. Can I ask you a question about the $20 million cuts that you are suggesting that we make. There has been a lot of this financial reporting by all these data groups in the community that have been brought to the board and to the administration. They've done amazing work. There's so many like, yeah, for a writer Evanston. What was the the Legion of data nerds? I love that. So shout out to those people doing that amazing work for the community. So when those when all those big numbers were found like the $27 million error telling you talk to our listener about why that doesn't change the financial plan. Like when we find those errors, what happens? Because it seems like such a massive number that it should make some dent, right? It should make some change. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's just what logic or common sense would tell us. That $27 million is what is anticipated. It's not new money. Yeah, but there was an error and it was very unfortunate. It was a double entry. And so so it was it was escalating our expenses twice as fast as it was supposed to be doing very unfortunate. You know, you'd never want to see anything like that happen. But in fact, so that $27 million is calculated for five years. We will have a billion dollar budget over the next five years. It's just like a fraction of the real budget. You know, if it were all in one year, yeah, wow, you know, 27 million a month year. And if we're going to get that every year, that's a lot of money. But when you think of the accumulation of 27 million or five years and we will our total budget, our budgets will all total about a billion dollars in that time. Then you start to realize it's it's nice. Yes. It's better than 27 million less. Right. Yeah. But but but but it really, it doesn't do, It doesn't solve the deficit. this and that's the problem. - So then when we go to closing schools, which I understand you're saying the district has this many kids and based on this evidence, a district our size needs ex-Mano schools. It makes sense to close, take some of that away. But the kids in the district will still need teachers and staff and the empty buildings will still need maintenance. So it is a lot of damage done to the kid. - You know, a certain amount of damage will be done to the kids with a transfer. - No, it's hard. - Is that balance worth it? Is it, if we're still gonna have to retain teachers, if we're still maintaining the facilities, is it worth it? - No, good question. Well, first of all, it's not needing exactly the same teachers because there is truly an economy of scale and this is part of the plan. If you can get all of your elementary schools up to four sectioned elementary's, all up to what we call the class enrollment guidelines of like 21 to 23 students. Then you don't need nearly as many teachers as when they're spread out in classrooms all over the district and so many of the classrooms aren't even close to that enrollment. So actually, there is a real economy of scale that you still have teachers in every classroom. The classrooms are not overcrowded, but you have the right number of students. So when we talk about right sizing the districts, it's not simply the right number of buildings, but it's right sizing them for just good utilization and good bang for the buck is what it amounts to. - But does it really, I guess we talked about kicking the can down the road a little bit, right, too? Like, and you know, there's so many different data points like Sarah said from the different groups and everything. One thing, too, is like, how do we know we're not just kicking the can down the road again, right? Like how do we know that this? - At the expense of these kids, yeah. - At the expense of us, right? Like last year, we closed a few schools. This year we're closing more. How do we know that we're done after this? And how do we know that this is like really what it's going to take to solve the problem? Yeah. - Yeah, no, that's really, you know, very logical to ask. So first of all, we got to go back a little ways and know that in the last several years, you know, like let's say four to five years, it was really becoming clear that we were bleeding our fund balance. That we were ending every year in deficit. - Right. - And our fund balance was, and we showed this, it's craft. But you can just see the declining line every year, steadily, year after year after year. Because, you know, when you have a deficit budget, you gotta come up with the money somewhere. So you take a fund balance, of course, is another way of saying rainy day fund. It's our savings account. - Yes. - But in the more general sense to go back. So because of the deficit problem, more than one highly qualified financial expert has been in to review and make recommendations. Every single one of them has said, you've got to write size the district. And they recommended a few years ago that we really need to ultimately reduce three to four schools to be able to afford our district. We had a net of one last year because of adding foster. We had a net of one. I'm recommending two, not three more. And we can balance this budget, not just this year, but for the foreseeable future with the three reductions. And still have room for growth so that as more students come, or whatever, we'll be at about 70%, 70%, 74% utilization even when we do this. Which is good. I mean, I would like to keep it certainly under 90. - Yeah. - But in the 70s, we can afford it. We can afford it. So that, but anyway, so it has a long history of what has been taking us into deeper and deeper debt. - So my biggest fear as a Dewey mom is that my son will go to Washington next year. And then of course, Washington will close next. Like what happened to the Kingsley Lincoln word kids. And I think that trust is what so many people are struggling with to say like, okay, if these hard, really hard things need to happen, how do we, how do we trust that then our kids school won't close again next year? - That is really. That's something that we absolutely need to address. - Yeah. - And I couldn't show you and I have been showing in public meetings and calculation that this will stabilize the finances. And when I say stabilize, we will be out of deficit funding. We will have revenue to cover our expenses. And that can be maintained forever. - Right. - If a few years down the road, good decisions continue to be made. No question, it'll last several years. But like anything else, you start over spending, you start committing to things where your expenses are way more than your revenue is or is going to be and you're right back in the same suit. So it is going to depend in the future for future boards and administrators to continue to make decisions. And this is what I've just used in high school 'cause it's the same community. This is what we do every year. And that's why the high school's never in this kind of a difficulty. Because there are a lot of things you might want or wish we could do, but you always have to see what of those things can we afford. If we add expenses, are there other places we can reduce expenses? Or are we seeing enough revenue that we can do it and cover? But regardless, you have to have the revenue to whatever expenses you commit to. - So you don't think Washington will close next. (laughing) - I can say this with every and I won't even be the one here. - Yeah. - Washington will not close, I don't think ever, but I can say for years, because this plan positioned, it's sort of stabilizes the finances of the district that you really have to come in here and start trying to deliberately go back to the desk. - Well, this is the conspiracy theory. Can I tell you what the conspiracy theory is? Because of the redistricting lines, Washington's title one status will get taken away. And then that'll be reason to close that school next because the facilities are quite old there. - It'll never happen, and not only would it never happen for that reason, - Okay. - That'll be a reason to close, but it'll never happen because we want to be the right size, we don't want to be too small. And right now, the projections are still for declining enrollments. And ours have been much more rapid than surrounding school districts. However, it is a national trend just with birth rates and the like that the school enrollments are going down across the country. We have kind of a double whammy here to just be honest about it. - Right, I was going to save this to the end, but since we've talked about declining enrollment a few times, I do want to talk about that. And I'm curious on your take on how we fix that problem, because it feels to me like it's a little bit of a chicken in the egg, right? Like it's like we have the declining enrollment, but then we're closing schools, and then more people are like, oh, I don't want to say, you know, I'm not going to send my kids to D65 because, you know, it's like a vicious circle. - It's a mess, you know, that's what you hear. And it feels like it's a vicious cycle. And I, as a parent that plans to send my kids to D65 schools, they're just all too little right now, they're going to go next year. But I want to see enrollment. - Go up. - Go up, yeah, like that is the best thing for everybody. And I know that obviously there's declining birth rates and all that that goes into it. But like you said, it's at a much higher clip than nationally and than other districts. So what do we do? Like how do we come back, come back to this issue? - Well, I'll tell you my vision for that. - Yeah, I would love to hear it, yeah. - And I don't control that. - Yeah. - But it is a very doable vision. - First of all, we don't fill our schools up more than this 70, like 77% or 70 or five somewhere in that range because we want to have space for more students, base for more girls. - Right. - That's number one. - Right, so you don't want to over-close and then be like-- - You never want to over-close. - Right. - That is a concern. - And, and, and, and, and, would never recommend that more schools should close, except for this. And that's where I've articulated, I would love to see us become so financially well-managed that the community would actually believe in us. And we talk about a referendum. That is not a magic answer right now, because I wouldn't vote for a referendum. Well, can you talk more about the referendum too? That's something. Yeah, I'll talk about how that works. Yeah, can you talk about how that works and what that looks like? I'll quickly finish just this idea. So we first of all have to prove to the community. We're not going to squander their money. There are many people in the community. I voted for the 2017 referendum. Right. And now the districts in serious deficit again. And people say, what we're not going to keep throwing money at that school district because they cannot. How many taxes are high enough? Exactly. So the first thing we got to do is prove that we're now solvent and stable and well-managed. And this plan does that. I would love to see us use that Washington site because it's a beautiful site and located right there on the crowd. It's a gorgeous school. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And some of that facade could be kept to build an elementary that would house let you know, more students. Yeah. And of course, that's what the foster model. And I would encourage I don't know how this happens because you can't just have people trading through it. But I wish more people when they when they have an opportunity could see foster and see the difference. It's not just that it's new. It's built for a different delivery system for today's education. And so we could build a larger but not a too large school. Let's say a capacity of 500 and normally you don't fill them right up to the brim. But we could build that on the Washington site and then back to attracting my I am coming full circle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you asked about the enrollments. Yeah. But when people see their stable. Yeah. They're they're they're they're building new schools. Yeah. They have more space for schools. And of course, I'd like to see the same thing happen up on the Lincolnwood site. Beautiful site. Yeah. Lincolnwood. And then there could be the equivalent of some consolidation because what's now do we and Washington, you can consolidate that and serve serve the the area. Right. And so I really believe if two things, if the district could get excited about visioning something like that, well, three things. And the district would be very well managed and and financially stable. Then really envision and get behind a referendum. So let me tell you how a referendum works. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't lose track of that question either. There's so much to talk about. Yeah. A lot of questions. Yeah. So a referendum is a ballot issue. Right. And in case in this case, it would be what we call a capital referendum. That is to go for for buildings to facilities. Capital investments. That's different than an operating referendum, which is what the 2017 one was. That was actually to do the the annual operating balance. And that and that, by the way, is what has dragged us down into the deficit. Although I need to add and we might come back to this, we were given a plan for the next 50 year, not a plan, but an assessment of our buildings. But in fact, in the next 20 years, our professional architects, professional engineers, have already been able to identify that we are going to have to do over a half a billion dollars, over a half a billion dollars of investment in our buildings. For example, we have 11 buildings in our school district that the boilers are well beyond their life expectancy. I got to tell you, we had to replace my furnace at my house. Exactly. Yeah. We weren't expecting that bill, Dr. Weatherspoon. And that's what I'm worrying about. Seriously. No, it says no, I understand what it looks like. It was winter and our furnace went in turn on. Yes. And we were we. And it's not in the budget. I mean, all of a sudden, even one of those boilers goes out, it's between 300,000 and 500,000 dollars. You can't go for a little bid. So you pay more because it's an emergency. So those are the kind of things. And you think about a half a billion dollars in building needs identified today. And that won't go lower. Think of our own houses. Over time, right now, nobody says you need a new roof in 11 years. Well, now you need a new roof, except, you know, more things get added to the list. Right. And so it's just it's just a terrible problem that we have an operations budget problem and we have a capital problems. So we really have the double what double whammy here in district 65. Yeah. I guess if we are trying to so we're talking about like we are trying to serve the children. You had you went through school closures in Des Moines. Yes. And equally as painful equally as painful. Okay. And did you feel if the goal of the district is to have, of course, the goal of every district and every business and every thing is to have a balanced budget. Of course, we want healthy finances. But the goal of a school district is to have academic achievement for all populations. And of course, we talk a lot about the achievement gap here in Heavenston. That's so real. And we want all of our students black, white, brown, any color to achieve their potential. Does consolidating the schools do that? It will. And let me speak a little bit for what our assistants who pretend for academics, the Maggie Gordon has been sharing who is far more articulate at this than I get. Okay. Okay. But I'll do your best. So first of all, when we have, you know, four section school, that means there are four second grade teachers, for example, who can all be collaborating. If you get up to fifth grade, where maybe one brings more expertise in the mathematics or the science or the literacy, you know, you can kind of draw on the expertise of the team. That already gives opportunities to just draw out and build more on the talent of the teachers in the school. If you're in a two section school or even in some cases of one, so, you know, you're the only third grade, you not only don't have that collaborative opportunity yourself, because yes, we can say, well, collaborate with all the third grade teachers across the district, but the fact is, you're not all together every day. Right. You know, and even with two, certainly better than one, but again, it's more limited than when you can build a team around, of course. Yes. And Maggie would would say that there's a lot of evidence that that really does enhance delivery of education, otherwise so. And is that more so with not older kids, but like kids that are like you said, fourth, fifth grade, maybe that are, you know, a little bit more specific in their needs? Probably so. Yeah. Probably so. Yeah. I'm going to throw something in that is totally off the track and irrelevant, but I got to say this. So when I was coming up as a young superintendent, there was a mentor superintendent, and I had had a lot of respect for him. Yeah. And he was a very successful superintendent. And I say, because the students in his district were successful. Yeah. One of the things said to me is he said, Eric, always put your best teachers in the first grade. Really? I just had to throw that out there. And you know, before I came here, all my districts were unit districts, all all K through 12. Yeah. And it was only a THS that changed. But his rationale was, you know, kindergarten is a good chance to socialize and get started in school. But first grade is where you really start, they're going in on that academic work. Kindergarten is like pre K 2.0. Yeah. I will say with the kindergarteners come a long ways though. It's quite academic. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's it. This was years ago when it was probably less academic. Less sold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just be honest about it. Yeah. Because I haven't agreed. I mean, I mean, you know, our kindergarten teachers have built wonderful. No, they all know how to read. They all know. Yeah. I mean, what they are doing in my son's room 110, Mr. Boot, do we? What they are learning in that classroom? I think that's also why this is so hard is amazing. Yes. Yes. Yes. We have at Dewey amazing teachers who are and I can tell you that that may not be 100% but that is abundant across our district. Yes. That's what we hear. We keep hearing from everybody. And I think that's why I always say to people who are considering private school because of the district 65 mess. I say the district is a mess and that is we can't pretend it's not. But day to day our kids go into these schools and they are with the most passionate, energetic, smart, generous teachers that are making a difference in their lives every day. You are exactly right. I mean, I can't believe how wonderful this school in the classroom and and there is just fantastic teaching and learning and growth taking place. And I want to highlight that too because this is really something important to say about our district 65 and I love this district and it is so good. We're just being dragged down by the finance. So we have among the highest paid teachers in the region and what that does is gives us the ability to attract the cream of the crop. And district 65 has been so successful at attracting really among the finest teachers because, you know, if you're getting two offers and and there's this, well, first of all, it's in Evanston, Illinois and who wouldn't want to, you know, my family calls this half and stunning. Yes, exactly. It is. But but you know, it's located you're located in Evanston and you're among the highest paid teachers in the state or the region. I mean, of course, I want to teach there. Right. Yeah. And so we are fortunate and we do have really just I know. I think what makes this this district so special is the teachers in the community. And I don't know, you know, the the administration, I think, is doing their best right now to really move forward with the plan that they think is best. But what's making a difference in the in the lives of the children every day is certainly their friends, the kids in the classroom, which are generally very diverse, interesting, amazing, bright kids. And they're incredible teachers who, yeah, they are. They are amazing. And and and I'm seeing that firsthand now. I've known that about District 65. And I watched that firsthand at the high school because what you just said just carries all the way through. It does. So why is him good? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I do have one more personal question to ask. And this is hard. Why do we? And not another school. Right. Is it its proximity to foster? Not particularly. You know, you certainly look at how you can distribute students. But but actually, if you look back at the score cards that were used last year, the first school on the list per closure was, well, it was Lincoln when it kingsley, but but now it's Lincoln would. Right. And and and again, all this factor and they came up with this whole score card of what the better. The next one was Washington. And the next one was Dewey by only three tenths of a point. They were literally right together. But what happened is when we when we put in the new information this year, it flipped the score card. And I'll explain the number one thing that flipped it. Yeah. But then also a criteria that really became highly important. The first thing that flipped it was what made Washington more recommended was because the property is worth more money. And they were factoring in selling which property when we sell it will get more money for the district. Right. But that's gone away because I've already said we should not sell Dewey or Lincoln would. Right. Right. And I and I think the district will hold to that. I really they understand that you know. So so so the minute we took that away, all of a sudden it flipped. But the other thing is that we really because of of the distribution is we had to look also at equity. And we would have moved more students if we closed Washington and more marginalized students if we closed Washington. And so when you factor in more students, more marginalized. And now it's flipped because of the resale value of the property. That's what happened. So it actually was only three tens of a point different from Washington. Right. Okay. When you say marginalized, what do you mean? Well, this would be any of what we used to call at risk students. Okay. So that could be race. That could be socioeconomic. That could be disabilities. Any of those kind of special special needs programs or or just things that that in our society marginalized. Sure. So then what about the J.H. kids? Are though are they considered marginalized too by the same standards? J.H. is a total different. The Head Start kids. Yeah. Totally different. Yeah. And let me explain why. Yeah. Okay. That is actually Head Start, as you said. Head Start, yeah. And we do not get, we get our funding for K8 education. Right. We do not receive money at all for Head Start. For Head Start. There are Head Start grants that pay for billing. But we have been subsidizing that to the attune of between $1.5 and $2 million a year in order to keep it going. Yeah. And that is $1.5 to $2 million that we we're not able to allocate to K8. Right. Which is where where are the state funds us? It's not it's not so terrible for this reason. We relinquish the seats. But Head Start keeps it in the community. Only 10% of all the Head Start programs in the nation are actually run by a school district. Yeah. It's other providers. And we have other providers in Evanston who are already providing Head Start. I see. So the fact is, if I you know, I'd really have being cold sweats. If I knew that when we close that down, their families lose all of that. Yeah. I guess that was my big concern. Yeah. Where do they go? You know, there's a plan for the Dewey kids and where they're going to go. There's a plan for the Lincoln Wood Kids and where they're going to go. Is there a plan for those kids at Head Start? And will they be left to their own device? So here's the here's the plan best we can do. And you'll understand a minute. It's a government run program. That probably says it all. Unfortunately. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But and I've even even had personal conversations with somebody pretty high up in the Head Start here in in in the Chicago area. And the way it works is we relinquish the seats. And then we have no control over what provider they they contract with to take over the seats. So that's why we can we know that there are providers in our community who are very eager to bid on those seats. And we also know that Head Start knows that those seats are needed at Evanston. Yeah. Okay. The reason we're giving notice so far in advance. Originally, we thought we'd give notice and it would happen this summer. And they explained to us that Head Start the wheels apparently turn slowly there. Sure. Yeah. But but but with that what they call short notice, they would actually bring in their own, I guess they have professional transition teams to run Head Start for for probably a half a year to a year before they would then identify a provider who who would become the permanent writer. Because those are our babies. They are. And we didn't want why why have that if day one, you know, we relinquish on one day, the very next day, the the kids start with their new provider. And and and so that's why we've delayed it until the end of next school year. Sure. Because they said if you give us that much of a notice, we don't anticipate we would need to bring in a transition team. We could get all geared up in Evanston and literally those those those families and those children would not miss one day. I had start. Just can't speak for Head Start. Right. For sure. You know, and they're only going to commit so much to me. Right. Because because you know, they're going to take over and they're going to do what they do. But yeah, but believe me, anybody who is administering Head Start programs believes in the work of Head Start, they believe in meeting the needs. Yeah. And if we're talking about, you know, marginalized people, the head start, our babies, you know, our youngest people and people who are, you know, who have a financial need, which is definitely a marginalized group. Now we also have a preschool for all, which is part of a state funding program. And we're we're keeping preschool for all right. And then the other thing is in in in whether the Head Start or whether it's preschool for all. Any students with special needs, we do pay for and provide the staffing and provide that. So the special needs will be met that's required anyway, but of course we would do it regardless. So the special needs will be met. The preschool for all will continue and there's just no doubt head start will continue and there are eager providers and it just won't be by the district. It just won't be the school district. Yeah, I want to ask one quick question, Maddie, and then I'm like, you finish out. Cool. There was a speaker last night at the meeting who said making all these plans and then hiring a new superintendent would be kind of like hiring Ben Johnson and saying, you have to use the playbook of Matt Eberfluss. You heard that one. I thought that one was very succinct and funny. I thought it was. What do you say to that? Really, the person is not inheriting locked into anything. What we're going to do is stabilize the finances so that that person could come in here and start from day one in a district that is financially healthy. It is stable. We're not facing all of these decisions or everything and that person will develop the playbook and develop a strategic plan. And again, this is all with the community. I mean, when I see that person, it'll just come to. It'll be a collaborative thing. So actually, we're opening the door for that person to come in and take the reins and and and provide the leadership that this is going to be reflective of that leader and and and and and and and reflective of what the the that person's hearing from the community. I understand. But it was clever. Go Bears. Yeah, I know. I know. I couldn't help us. I know. It was a good one. It was a good one. All right, Maddie, go ahead. Yeah. So I we talked a lot about the school closures, obviously, but we didn't talk so much about I think one of the main reason that people feel so emotional about school closures is because people want to be able to have neighborhood schools, right? They want to be able to walk to school. The kids want to be able parents want kids to be able to walk to school, get there easily, have a community in their immediate neighborhood that they can build amongst themselves. How do we think about what that means and what the closures mean for Evanston, Evanston having neighborhood schools? Well, to to to to have what what you're describing, we would really need 10,000 students again, so that we could we could populate schools, you know, more densely around the community. Yeah, however, we're fortunate, even though we are certainly a city in in in terms of our square miles, we're we're still a fairly compact for a city our size. And so while it's it's certainly not walkable like like we've been used to in in many cases, nobody is is like a 40 minute drive from their school or anything. And of course, we we do have good bus service and and the buses move pretty rapidly. And again, you know, I'm thinking like in rural areas or even out in the western suburbs where they're spread out more, you know, kids can be on a bus a long time just making making the rounds. That's not really how it works in Evanston. So it definitely changes walkability from what some folks have been able to enjoy and and and and I understand why that's so valuable. Yeah. Really do. But given you know, so what can we afford to do the idea that we're not spread over over miles, the fact the fact that that whether it's it's a drive or or or a bus ride, it's it's not all words either. I think it it is a big adjustment. It certainly is different and and not preferable when when when folks have been able to to really experience and enjoy that. Yeah. But but I think it needs to be workable. Yeah. And I think that that's what we do. We make it workable. Last question for you. What does success look like for you right now? Mm hmm. So in my mind, uh, if we can move the comprehensive plan forward and we can start stabilizing the finances, we will probably end this year with a deficit yet. But then start realizing the savings next year and starting to build our fund balance back up. And if we can do that, while at the same time, getting out of this vicious cycle of cuts and and school closings and disruption of families and and and and and and and and a heartache for children, if we can get out of that cycle, success looks like a district that is stabilized for many years to come. A district that that that we can turn our attention not to financial crisis, but to to the outcomes for students and and even more emphasis and more investment in their classrooms and and in supporting their teachers. I think that we will see a district that is blossoming and that is attracting young more young families again. And and I hope real success that we can pass a referendum in a few years and be able to invest in in either I'd love to see a couple new schools. I think we need them. Yeah, you know, even now when you add into the average foster, the average school in our school district is 79 years wouldn't be bad because I've seen some beautiful 79 year old homes. But but when they need a half a billion dollars worth of of work now, so the referendum would not only get some some newer schools or new ones, but it would also then allow us to spend our capital money on all of our other schools, getting them really taken care of and and maintain the way they need to be maintained. And you don't think there's room for a referendum before making the decision to close schools like. Well, based on my own opinion and many people have talked to who have said I would never vote for a river and remember 80% of our community doesn't even have students in our schools. Yeah, but there are taxpayers. And I can't speak for all of them, but many of them I will say that that you know, I'm not going I could not vote for that if I think you're going to squander the money. Right. Of course. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. We've talked about this a lot on the podcast in a few episodes. So I just don't want to forget. But what are your thoughts on consolidation D 6520 consolidation? Yeah. Yeah. You know, that comes up a lot. Yeah. And I'd say we're 100 years too late. I really do. You know, I always lead unit districts. And while this is more common in our area, it's separate K8 districts from a high school district are pretty uncommon across the country. Yeah. But the decision was made over 100 years ago. Yeah. And and the problem becomes they become two completely different entities. They have their own school boards and governance. They have their own policies. Very important. And probably one of the biggest issues is they have their own salary schedules. And the high school teachers are paid more than the K then the district 65 teachers. Well, unit districts don't have two separate teacher contracts. They have to negotiate one. It would be millions upon millions of dollars to to negotiate up and and the high school is not going to negotiate down. Right. And so I don't know why the high school would want to consolidate at the moment because you know, they're triply bond reading. They're managing their finances. They're money. Well, and to take on all of the you know, I've been talking about the capital liabilities to take on all the liabilities of of our beloved district 65 at the same time that the community now has to come up with millions of dollars to to equalize the salary schedules. It would it would be a a monumental leap for the community to be able to do that. Yeah. Thank you. I just had to slide that one. I can't believe we forgot. I forgot about that. Thank you very much for your time. We know you're an extremely busy man, especially right now. It means a lot to us that you're here. Thank you for your time. It's tough. It's tough out here. So it takes bravery to come sit down with us. So thank you. No, it's tough and and it's it's very painful. Yeah. And I was my I'm whistling a different tune because I always until when when it became my school that was closing, it changes your perspective. It really, really does. Yeah. And it and it should. Yeah. Yeah. It changes your perspective. So you know, to all the families out there. Yeah. Yeah. We're in it together. We are in it together. Thank you. (upbeat music)