Scary Clowns

Hi, Roosevelt. How are you? I'm good. How are you going? I'm really good. It's spooky season over here in LA because we have a thing called Halloween. I'm afraid of it. We're doing an episode about scary clowns because there are a lot of scary clowns around at this time of year. And I'm just wondering as a child growing up in New Zealand, Roosevelt, and even as an adult, what is your association when you think of just in general clowns? And, okay. Well, one of my favourite films when I was a kid was a problem child. Have you ever come across that franchise? Never. It was about the titular problem child. This little kid was right here and he would get into all sorts of mischief. He'd take his considerable up against the blackboard. What? Oh, my God. He put some cockroaches in the dinner and the salad. You're the problem child. Yes, but he also, and he had the loveliest dad. And the dad was single. Everybody wanted to date the dad who was this lovely man. And one time he started dating this woman who was kind of like an evil stepmother figure and she re-decorated problem child's bedroom with clowns. Everything became clown thinged. Zero scary. Oh, Roosevelt, isn't she funny? I'm David Farrier in New Zealand accidentally marooned in America. And I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now right now, we're in the peak spooky season here in America as we rapidly approach Halloween. And something I'll be noticing more and more over these last few weeks is how much America loves clowns, specifically scary clowns. They're everywhere and they're unavoidable at this time of the year. And so I started to wonder how did it get this way? Once upon a time clowns were fun, especially here in the US where circus clowns were once front and center. Now clowns in the US mostly just seem to be terrifying, ripping the heads off children and just being generally unpleasant. How did this happen? And what does it mean about our society? It's interesting I said our society. Our American society, David. What is happening? So grab your red nose and prepare to scare some children because this is the scary clowns episode. I think it's fair to say Rob, our neighborhood Halloween decorations are going up in full force in the yards. They have been for the last probably two weeks this week picking up steam by Friday. Is Halloween Friday or Saturday? Saturday. Saturday. It's going to be crazy. The boys have been very, very excited about putting up Halloween decorations. What sort of angle have you gone down? Well, but the promise that we've we've took them out of the garage two weeks ago, but it's been so hot that during the day, it's been too hot to put Halloween decorations up. So we finally got around to it this past weekend, even though there's been piles of skeletons and things by the front door for the past two weeks. I'm still blown away by the enthusiasm that Americans get into Halloween with. I mean, in New Zealand, we have Halloween, but it's nothing like it is here. It's a good time. We've got skeletons that we have that are climbing the front railing of the house. Nice classic. And then we've got like, cacti, garden area in the front of our house. So we've got other other skeleton creatures. We've got hot on skeletons. It sounds like skeletons, tombstones. We did have this giant spider guy, but the legs come off and you have to pack it. And then this was year three or four of it. And they get fucked. The plastic starts to warp. And I was in the middle of trying to put it back together and was just like this, this thing. I remember taking this apart and putting it together last year and thinking this needs to get thrown away. And here you are again. He tried to do it. So we threw that away, but I took the legs and have a skeleton coming out of a bush and he's got a bunch of spider legs. Oh, you want to create a reaper with him. It was, it was the boy's idea. We, I'm a neighbor who heavily gets into the big spirit Halloween, like big nine foot guys. And they are nightmare every year because they packed up rougher and rougher every year. Yeah. And the joints get looser and looser. And it is just fucking a rough nightmare. I hate it. Yeah. And this year I added ghosts that are hanging from the gutters. That's scary. That have like the like wire string lights on the inside, which have been real pain in the ass to get situated out they need to be because the ghosts are supposed to glow a little bit. And I should also add, I feel like as well, you're kind of getting judged by your neighbors and your neighborhood if your display isn't to a certain, you know, the certain expectation that a display is going to be a little bit of effort and not just a piece of shit. I will say I think the Hollywood of it all does compound this. Maybe skews your perception of it a bit because I have seen like straight up looks like special effects from movies like rotting corpses in front yards as holy displays in LA. Yeah. There's a house nearby that has giant octopus tentacles coming out of the windows and going through other ones. And they've seen that. It's painted the windows. So it looks like it's breaking out of it. You're there is the Hollywood of it all. I think a base with a bunch of industry and people with access money and they spend money on all this crap. That are just the creativeness of people that are doing set of decoration and are coming up with these elaborate things for it. Because there are streets around us that you almost feel like you should be paying to go because there's so much effort that has been put in. And it is cool because it's free display for the local kids and stuff which is kind of amazing. I have just been asking to drive around and look at houses. I can't help but notice when you were describing the setup of your Halloween, there were no clowns factoring in no clowns. No clowns. How do you feel about the scary clown? Because I guess from my perspective, I really noticed that I went to Universal Horror Nights at the Universal Studios. Again, a very alley thing to do. But it's a 10 minute drive from my house and friends were going. They had to spare ticket. Of course, I'm going to go. Yeah. The clown who is the titular character from why not titular because they're maybe school terrifying. So there's a series of horror films called Terrifier about a truly, a truly mean spirited trilogy of films, like really disgusting, not for kids. And out of the clown is the main character. And in Universal, he is just everywhere. He is incorporated into the creatures that are like running around. There's a whole terrifier area. So, and then there's another haunted house there that is just kind of warped, awful versions of circus classic clowns. You sort of picture from the '50s and '60s. And clowns, it just reminded me of how ridiculously embedded in the culture clowns. I mean, in my mind, growing up in New Zealand, it was always Pennywise from it, the miniseries. And I just think it's interesting that I go to Universal Studios a week ago and there's a new clown terrifier who is equally as in the culture. You have 10 year old kids wearing out the clown t-shirts. I hope those kids aren't watching the movies because they are just full on. Yeah. I think I've talked about this, but when I was young, I watched it. And it scared the shit out of me. How old backpack? To 8, 10, 10, 10, you know, it was on TV. It's horrible clowns and gutters and stuff. Yeah. It made me not like bathroom drains. There's the scene where their blood is bubbling out of this sink drain. Yeah. There's voices coming from within the drain. Yeah. The showers at the school. The blood starts coming out of that. He comes out of there. In America, and I should speak too widely, but here in Los Angeles, I know that you're one of us. Now you can't hold that emotion slipped out our country. Fuck. I do notice in the States, you have like massively high curbs and the massive, I don't know what the term is, like gushes or like hot suis. And I cannot how all I think when I see one of those, anyway, sitting there was the balloon in the little kid reaching in there for candy. Yes, because this is so much space in there. And that doesn't you know, we don't have them that big in New Zealand. And so even it has walked the way I see like the roading systems. Yeah. Well, so I will say that movie scared the hell out of me as a kid, but I wasn't afraid of clowns as a result of that. We had Boso buckets. Do you know about Boso buckets? No, but I assume something to the Boso the clowns, the most famous local version was Boso circus and WGN TV in Chicago, which starred Bob Bell for 25 years, but he was created 25 years. He was created in Hollywood in 1946. And pray tell the Boso bucket. What it was. how is that? It's just a game they played where you threw ping pong balls into buckets and the further you got, I think the prizes got better. That's cool. So yeah, I wasn't afraid of bows of the clown or circus clowns. Yeah. So clowns, because I think there is, I mean, there is a phobia of clowns like it is something that people have and I think you are either it's built into your DNA to be scared of them. Boy, I'm not scared of clowns either. Yeah, but I'm brave. They call me brave, but for a reason, I'm proud of that is because I'm not scared of clowns. How are you with getting scared, though? Are you, you watch a lot of horror movies? I have, I've improved dramatically. Yeah. Did you always watch horror movies? No, I remember very specifically when I was about 16, still deeply Christian. My friend Liam was deep into horror, scream and that kind of thing. And I remember specifically walking up to Liam and saying, you shouldn't be watching those horror films that evil. Well, I was essentially telling them that legitimately from Satan and he shouldn't be watching them. And I remember the attitude of being just horrified that Liam was watching horror. Yeah. I remember had a tough time with horror movies when I was a kid too. I got scared easily. Yeah. I remember time I had a bunch of kids from my soccer team over for sleepover. And we were going to watch sleepy hollow, which I vaguely would consider that a horror movie now. Yeah, Johnny dip scary hit this horseman vibe watching in the basement. And I went upstairs. I was like, I'm not, I can't watch this movie too scared. I was I got freaked out by the horror wasn't in your DNA as a kid as a kid. No. Yeah. But I mean, I saw scream early on when it came out. I remember a neighbor, a neighbor's older brother had it. That was one of the like first or sorry, movies that I saw great first, but beyond childhood, I've I've grown to appreciate and enjoy horror movies. Yeah. A bit more, but also living in the golden age of them at the moment, where we have these horror films that are doing, I guess I elevated horror, right? My bill, I feel sort of I feel like bad bit up for me was the first one I watched where it's like, oh, this is horror, but it's also telling a much deeper story and the production values are just so beautiful. I think that's more the type I gravitate towards as well versus terrifying. Yeah. More slashy with gratuitous gore. So I went to the opposite. So post me lecturing Liam about the eagles of watching horror. I became best friends with Dan when I was working in a newsroom and Dan and I would both finish our shifts at about 11 p.m. And one day Dan I said, I'd try to come round to my house after. So I want to show you something. And as a new friend, you know, Dan, and he seemed cool. He got to show me. I went around there and it was a, God, what was the horror film? I want to say it was high tension, but I think that came out later. He basically showed me one of the most grizzly, most awful, yeah, like a horrors of Scandinavian horror movie. Yeah, that kind of thing, like a deeply awful thing. And I remember being so kind of, it basically broke through the wall. It was so awful. And I'm like, oh, this is what this is. And Dan, through Dan, he introduced me to every genre of horror imaginable. And I just learned to really enjoy it and catch up on it. And now I love, like I love horror, I love the mean spirit of terrifier. And I love big A24 Wank fists. We have some like deep story under it all. Well, I think for me too, it was when I, when I started, we're going to a movie theater as a projectionist and got really into film. Yeah, you can't ignore a horror movies if you want to get into the history of film and see all the weird obscure shit that came before. So that I think that was where my turn happened. No, you raised a really good point. I mean, I think like Peter Jackson, he started in horror, like bad taste. And it's I feel that something that directors and crew can throw together that relatively cheaply. Yeah. And it's really fun. Yeah. And you can get away with production values, sort of an advantage, sometimes if they are less. And so you have people like Peter Jackson that start in horror, like there'd be no Lord of the Rings without his horror roots, which is. Yeah. And then you just have, from cinematic history, some, so many classics, dating way back. Yeah. To appreciate film and where it's going and what it's doing, you, you can't ignore that whole genre because it, it was such a big part of cinema. And I think the cool thing is doing now. We talked about these films for having something like a back rooms or obsession is also a window for kids to get into directing on a huge scale and to launch them. And I don't think you don't get many, I feel like you're calling them children. Young adults. I'm like amazed at their youth. I'm like, holy shit, these fucking kids making this stuff. Yeah. But as far as Siri clowns go. Yes. Obviously, we've talked about clowns a little bit on this show before we've done a insane clown posse episode. They are technically clowns. Yeah. It's slightly scary. But I wanted to sort of learn a bit more about, I guess, what a clown thinks of the scary clown kind of obsession that's taken over because I didn't really understand where it had come from. So the most sensible thing to do last week was to just get a clown to come in and sit on the couch. I'm you're away that night. And I just thought, why not replace you with an actual clown? And there's exchanging emails with this clown. And you sort of said, I should I be a makeup? Because I was sort of expecting just a guy to come in that works as a clown. Yeah. Of course he's a clown. I said, yes, please, please, come in as your clown character, go for it. Please, I want to learn and learn. I did. I'm gilly the clown. And I'm an accountant. No, I'm a clown. And this is, I've been a clown for 25, 30 years about. I did it when I was a younger. And I've continued. I'm also, I work as an actor often. But this has always been kind of my side hustle. And then in a lot of times when like the other hustles work at all, this becomes the hustle, you know, which which I love. I feel like it's always there. There's always a need for a clown. I feel it's never gone away and it's never going to go away. Yeah, I don't think so. I think we've gone kind of underground. You know, there's a we we were hit by a bunch of stuff in the the 2015, 2016. I don't know what it was like overseas or New Zealand or but it was we definitely we got hit by this sort of clown scare and it's become I think is building momentum. It's become very fashionable to dislike clowns. Okay, so I feel like we've gotten very serious very quickly. But when you talk about the scound clear, the clown scare and kind of the idea that this isn't an easy thing to be doing. Like what is that? Like what was like, where did that come from? Well, the clown scare specifically kind of happened around to like I said, I think it'd been building momentum. But around 2015, 2016, if you were in America and the States, there was a weird thing that started permeating with like clown sightings and clowns been people being scared of clowns. Now, I remember some of that reaching New Zealand, like people freaking just normal citizens out by appearing in the forest in a backyard on the side of the street. Yeah, it's just spacious places, right? I mean, it's understandable that somebody would be freaked out if a clown is there. Absolutely. Not expecting to see a clown. I you know, I'm a clown myself. But if I was parked on the sixth level of a garage and there's clown standing with the balloon, I'd be like, dude, what are you doing there? That yeah. Well, I feel like an element of that. Like when I went to meet you tonight, you outside our studio on the street. Yeah. And you're a surreal sight when you're out of context of where you expect to see a clown. You're not expecting it. No. And it's a little alarming. Yeah. You know, often do a party and it's going to be like an apartment building. I'm supposed to meet somebody. And so once you get there, it's fine. But the travel up to there is very daunting because you're walking the stairs. You're walking the elevator and read a bump in anybody. They're not expecting that. You know. Well, dude, no, but wait, because I feel like in my kind of growing up in New Zealand and my sort of popular culture perception of clowns, there was clowns obviously at a party and kids and fun and joy. And then I feel like there was Tim Curry's it that came out in my, because I'm 43. So that was like my prime time to be freaked out by clowns. But then you're saying sort of those period up to that were like things were chill and then this kind of memey clown scare happened. Yeah. And that kind of did shift things in a really dramatic way. That became a tipping point. I think there had been things. So it was a lead up to it. Yeah. If you look at Tim Curry, even even like in Poltergeist. I don't know if you remember the movie Poltergeist when I saw when I was a kid. I'm roughly a little bit older, but roughly the same generation. And you know, there's a clown in there, like a crazy, creepy clown. I don't remember that scene. I've been a while since I was a little up at clown. He kind of like drags himself along the ground and it's scary. It's right before the tree comes into that kid's room. And so I feel like corporate culture really embraced a clown in the 60s and the 70s. And then there was kind of a rejection of that corporate embrace that kind of permeated in the 90s and the arts, the 2010s. And it culminated to like this clown scare, the clown panic. But part of the reason why that was also built there or created that is because there's a lot of kind of scary clown tropes. When it happened specifically in 2000. 2016, I thought it happened. I thought it was a gorilla filmmaking or a gorilla marketing for it. I thought I knew it was coming out. We had been forewarned at the time. I worked with a popular corporate clown here in America with the McDonald's corporation. Oh, right. Yeah. Really big. Yeah. And so we had been told that we are all laying low because of this movie coming out. And this is this is the remake of it that came out recently. Yeah. Correct. There was like some real worry about Ronald being too visible in the field and that sort of stuff. So there was a real pullback from that. And then it just kind of kept continuing. In fact, around that time, bringing brothers closed, which was a huge circus here in America. And also big Apple circus closed. So all these things were kind of shutting their doors. And it was a little bit like what's going on. And also, and I think it needs to be said, even though I don't the presidential election was going on. And it was very far out and crazy in 2016. And there was a weird melding of like we're watching news be kind of entertainment. You know, all these new stations are taken over by entertainment giants. Like we don't know what news is really. And it's entertainment. So these clown scares it to me was like, is this really a story? Like is this what we're spending our time on? But I felt in a way it was kind of we were vilifying something because it felt so out of control. Everything did. Like it felt like upside down. And so like, you know what? Let's get to clown. I was in the US in 2016 for a completely random reason, but I was at what was going to be an election party. I guess for Hillary winning. And it shifted when Trump got in and it did feel like reality just became like very odd from that point on. And I guess, yeah, I guess the idea that you got caught up on like a weird news cycle isn't that crazy. No, and it actually I'm part of this documentary, not the ones I came to talk about, but this documentary for ULU, which starts October 12th. And they talk specifically it's called clown panic. And it's talked specifically of that time. And I talk in it as clown about it. But part of what it extrapolates a little bit, it talks about a moral panic, you know, because I think that was a bit of a we we didn't know how this happened, you know, like, wait, what? It's almost felt like the Salem witch trials, right? Like, who can we burn? Who can we burn? And it became like the clowns, the clowns are causing this. You know, I don't know. I know that I'm taking kind of an artistically, but it was weird. They tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Helix. You probably know the drill by now. Helix came on board very early on in the evolution of this podcast. They've been here the entire way. And I'm very grateful they are because Helix makes an amazing mattress. I've been sleeping on mine for years now. And I cannot recommend it enough. I've got a midnight Lux mattress. I went into their website. I took a sleep quiz. It got sent to my door and I've been sleeping great ever since. 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They were wearing a clown costume and it scared somebody else and on someone killed the clown. Yeah. And it was like panic. It was a person dressed as a clown, but it was a real death. I think it almost felt like, is this a slow news cycle? What created this tsunami? As you can guess, after Halloween, it kind of all dissipated, right? Because we've moved on as a society. That was to me when news completely changed. We're not, we're entertainment now, more than news. It's clickbait stuff. The news became clickbait. There was a couple of things. After the Iraq war, when all the ticker stuff came on, it's just like in all this constant, in America and the states, it was just like, just like, oh, shit, stuff's going on, dude. There's a little feed on the bodice. Oh, shit. That happened, and that happened. Yeah. While you're watching other news, there's other news happening. Yes. It's the same time. It's like dual screen, you know? Yeah. Now we do that on our phones. I mean, most people look at their phone and they look at the TV and they're like, oh, my God. What's going on? Oh, my God. What's going on? Oh, my God. Uh-huh. Completely. 100%. It's weird. It's weird. How long has it taken for you to get from what you were at 14 or like, it could get into this, to this current iteration I see in front of me? When I was really young, I kind of got into it, you know, and then I did it on my church and stuff. So they have in the South, they have something called caring clowns, and it's like, it's a way of kind of like reaching out to, you know, outreach for ministry. Christian clowns. Yeah. Yeah. Basically what it is. And I grew up Methodist, which is pretty much, it's like if you go to church and you can go to church and shorts and flip flops, you know, like you'd be fine. I'll be fine. I'll get in. You get out of no problem. You know, they taught us some skills. And so I did like a nursing home. And I, you know, I remember making some clown shoes and getting a costume together and stuff. And then when I got into high school, I found girls, you know, and I found sports and that sort of stuff. And, and I really kind of put, I was, you know, clowning and Boy Scouts kind of went to the side. And I kind of started doing more stuff. That looked cool. I guess, you know, clown. I wasn't cool when you were a kid. I know. No, not if you were in high school. Yeah. And I was an athlete. I was a diver, a springboard diver. So I did flips and stuff. And I went to college to do that. And then, but because of that, when I was in college, I really just, I figured out in college, I was a swimming and diving team that this wasn't my tribe. Like I just, they wanted to, you know, and I still know some of them. They wanted to get just drunk and bang chicks and all that stuff. Which was fine. I just, I was a late bloomer, I think. And that just wasn't, it wasn't your happy place. Not really. And so I took an acting class. But because I could flip and tumble and stuff, you know, I was really good at the physicality stuff. So like throw me around, do me that. And I grew up watching Threege Company. They have that, yeah, yeah, I love that. Like all that physical comedy that John Ritter did. And then I went to, I came out here, I was like, well, what do I do for a job? And then one of the things were like, oh, you could work in a, you know, for a clown company, you know, do like party stuff. And I did, I did that. And then I was working as a Woody and like a Pikachu, you know, all these things. And then, you know, kids, there's those big hooded thing that you've got. And kids are kicking you in the balls and stuff. And you're like, dude, this sucks. This sucks. It's rough. It's way too tough work, man. It's like keeps you diving. You've got a big head on. And kids are brutal. Yeah. They're having a great time. You're having a last good time. Yeah. You're just a punching bag, you know, but I love the clowns because your face was free. You know, I'm like, and this is, this is what I live to do anyway. Tell me about your documentary. Yeah. And why you chose to make it, because it's a great doc. And I'm going to encourage people to watch it. Thank you. Both as I speak now, but also as we top and tell this episode. But, you know, what, what made you think to make that? What did you want to, what did you want to. and do with that project. - When I started, I was in the Ronald program and we had just all been kind of given our sort of our papers, right? - Just three, one, tell me about the Ronald program 'cause you dropped that. That's kind of incredible. - Yeah, so I worked as an assistant to Ronald and there was a bunch of us that did it. I was not Ronald. McDonald, I worked closely with him because to say I was Ronald, it really takes valor from everybody else because there was a lot of people that portrayed this sort of iconic character that grew out of basically just talking burgers. You know, I think I will recognize that I think it started with kind of some dubious foundation, but I do think it grew into something pretty, you know, much like a tree in a sidewalk that probably shouldn't be there. But Jesus, dude, look at that, that really grew. - That's one thing about LA that I love, that we had trees growing out of sidewalks. - It's crazy, yeah, it's the same. - It's kind of a tip of that tree. I mean, you really didn't have, you did it. - You did it. You know, and I kind of felt Ronald did the same thing because you know, in a lot of ways, the Ronald McDonald house, like things that were started within the guys of him back when he was, I think, and he's very iconic. I still think around the world, there's like five things people know, probably, depending on where you are, Jesus, Santa, and Ronald. Like he's like, I don't know who else is there, you know? But completely, unfortunately, our president, yeah. - Jesus, another type of clown. - Oh, Jesus is already on that list. - Jesus is on the, fucking hell. So you worked with McDonald's, the corporation, and you then booted out in some way? - Correct. - And then the pandemic happened. And then so, the clowns got a job, but everyone's out of a job. So like, where did this go? And then it became kind of a story like how we're crawling out, how we're crawling out of this sort of like trench and where are we? And where is anybody? And kind of what has happened in a lot of ways at the time, I almost thought we were kind of the canary in the coal mine. And it was, it was corporate work. All these established clown jobs are being cut to being your basically freelancers now, which has kind of happened in day everyone, you know? These sort of just a full-time job as an artist or as a profession is no longer full-time. Now you're doing this hard time. Are you doing this as a gig worker or whatever else? So I think that really started, we were almost just kind of one of the first sort of outward things that kind of happened with, if you go to McDonald's now, not only is that program gone, I do think they've got a couple people, it's called the central program now or something, there's a couple people that now assist with Ronald in the field, but the hundred that did. And there was a, what was his name? There was a Kiwi there too. They called him, he's called the Kiwi John or something. - Was it really? - Yeah, he was a New Zealand Ronald. - Wait, so just wait and zoom out. This, sorry, this program you're talking about. - Yeah. - As far as the Ronald Program. - Ronald, I mean, I, and you know, him as a Kiwi commercials maybe, and that kind of thing. What was the clown program? Was he out in the community? - Yes. - And what other clowns with Ronald? He was like him in a troop of clowns? - No, no, back in the day. - Just Ronald. - People from a Donald land. They would have other costumes, but back in the day in the 80s, they had all of McDonald's land. So you'd have the hamburger. You'd have mad grimmies. You'd have grimmies. - Right, so they were all like clowns essentially. - They were, but they were usually headed costumes, but they would still be at these places. It became kind of a huge merchandising thing. - I understand. - They went from selling burgers to kind of a merchandising thing, but then in the 90s, early 2000s, it really started, they started having partnerships with other things, not doing it in-house, like cross-pollination. They do Pixar. They're doing Disney. So that became the Hat Meal toys. It wasn't like all of these. - Yes, they're Ronald's side of taking a back seat. - A little bit. He started, they found more lucrative deals. - You okay. - So there was globally, there was Japanese Ronalds. There was, you know, we call these others Tom's, which is an acronym for top of the market. There was, I met one. There was two New Zealand guys. - I need to chase this, 'cause I- - Oh, it's interesting. - Of course there was a New Zealand Ronald. - Yeah, and people loved them. Many of you, when I met him, they had a Tom Con, which happened every two years. - A Tom? - And I met him, like a Tom Con. - What's that? - So it was where all the Tom's got together. So it was called a Tom Con. And you would go there and you would go with your costumes and you'd go and you would kind of learn. You do workshops and stuff. It would be in Chicago or it would be wherever. And then you'd have to get certified. They'd have to see you in costume and say, "You're good," and that's really stuff. So, but I met him at one. I met him early in my, I worked as a Tom for 10 years. And early, I guess in that first row, Tom kind of went to I met Kiwi John. I think it's Kiwi John. - I would look and learn. - I should know this. I feel ignorant that I don't know this already, you know? - It rhymed. I've never met anyone from New Zealand or Australia. Where Canada, for that matter, that I didn't like. Like I was like, "That could be people." - That could be people. - Okay, so you started documenting that aspect to what you were coming out of and what did you sort of, what did you find or what surprised you on that journey and you're looking into clowning? - Well, as we progressed on that journey and when we came back from the pandemic and I started like, really, we did an interview with a rodeo clown who's in the document, JJ Harris and we had an interview with Chad Damiani who is part of this school and puddles, the puddles, a pity party. And we started kind of opening up to kind of like who else is practicing this and kind of because the biggest part for me is like, what other positivity is happening right now in clowning? 'Cause I've got nothing against the negativity of a sort of like a whore clown. I recognize the people like that. People like whore movies like yourself and it's like, great, they can sit at the table. There's enough room for everybody, you know? But I was like, well, but I would like to sprinkle with other people, you know? I don't want to talk about just a whore. That's not everybody's bag. And some clowns really hate the whore clown. Yeah, this is not what it's about. Well, there's some, there's some purists out there. And I want to speak for them too. Because I like that, like the mom and pops and like the older generation of clowns. And you know, it's clowns are clicky everywhere. The, you know, I've always been amazed that when I was younger and so on, I was like, oh, you're a clown, oh, so and so is a clown too. I should get you together. And it was like, and there's no guarantee I'm gonna like them. You know, like you wouldn't do that with plumbers. No, you wouldn't, no. You know? You're all individuals. You know, we're just like, we're different people. I like a couple clowns. You know, I don't like a lot of clowns. I mean, they're not all my people. They, but we share that. It's almost like a, like a cousin, you know, but when somebody starts beating up, I'm like, oh, no, dude. No, like I got your back. We had, because we're clowns together. But I don't like that guy. Another than a clown. You know, I don't give it, but you can't beat him up because I'm re the clown. You know, it's a, it's tribal. It's a little tribal. It is. Thank you. Hey, thanks for having me, man. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. That was Gilford clown. If you weren't, if you're just listening, I think it's worth watching on Spotify or Patreon or YouTube because he is, he's a clown. Yeah. So it adds to his whole thing when you see him. Yeah. I think it's funny to cover clowns right now during Halloween because it feels like such a seasonal thing. But then you forget that they exist 11 months of the year, not as scary clowns. Yeah. Yeah. Not completely. That's like Santa a bit. Except Santa does not exist. No, Santa. It would be like if Santa did continue to exist, it would be odd to see Santa and July. Yes. Out of context, Santa. Yes. At the beach. Who celebrates Christmas with Santa at the beach? That's insane. And it is a weird thing as well thinking you got, did you get that? I got that. Did you get it? No. Was it in New Zealand or in New Zealand? I get it now. Yeah, it's also weird because it would be like your clown for 11 months of the year. And then one month clowns are Satan and scary. Yes. Well, and he brought up so many other clowns that I forgot about that just exist, not during Halloween. We were really focused on horror clowns. We were. But there's Ronald McDonald's, Ronald McDonald, huge, can't forget patch atoms, which shut out to Canada. One episode. Hello, therapy clowns, rodeo clowns, puddles of the clown. Yes. So many clowns deeply embedded in America that aren't scary, but we tend to focus on scary ones specifically around this time. Well, let's get into that a little bit too. I made a few notes about this. So the clown panic, I do remember this and completely forgot about it. So August 2016 in South Carolina, residents from a apartment complex told police that there was a clown trying to lure children into the nearby woods, horrific offering money. And a good look, they couldn't find evidence of it, but it spread online. I remember the vivid, vividly pictures of just this clown standing in the dark woods. It was terrifying. We had the images, we had those images make it to New Zealand. And then it started to spread, within weeks, similar reports came from a if you dozen other US states from Canada, then the UK, then Australia, they don't name any other countries. - There was some signings in New Zealand as well. - This doesn't say, this is elsewhere, I guess you could have it elsewhere. - It's elsewhere. - It's at Australia though. - Oh, fucking Australia and elsewhere. - In social media drove a lot of it. Faith Clown accounts threatening schools, prank videos. And I think it just started other people kind of copycatting. - Yeah, a cool thing, an easy thing to do, relatively, just getting a clown outfit and just go to an area you're not expected to be in. I mean, when I went and let Gilford into the studio, he was just standing out in the main road and he did look eerie in the dark, just standing there on his own. - I bet, yeah. - It was scary, I got scared. - So Gilford, is that you? The manager of it wasn't him, some other clown. But no, I think it also got very confusing at the time because there was that remake of it coming out. And so I think people got very confused and thought it was viral marketing for that film. But it was just happening entirely separate to that just via people having the urge to prank. Back in 2013 though, there was a precursor to the major clown epidemic of the 2016s and that kicked off in Northampton, England. And that was the work of three local filmmakers and that clown looked like Pennywise from the original episode. So UK kind of kicked things off 2013 then America come 2016 went ham. - Well let's go back to 1981. - What the hell? - The Phantom clown in Boston. - Oh my God. - This was May 1981, so not even Halloween time. Children in several neighborhoods told adults that men dressed as clowns were driving around in a van trying to lure kids inside with candy. - Get out. - Over the following weeks, similar stories came from other cities, Kansas City, Omaha, Denver, Pittsburgh. And they were very similar. Stories, a clown of an attempt to entice children. Despite all the attention police never found the clowns or the vans and no one was ever charged. - And again, what year was this roughly? - 1981. - Holy shit, similar pattern of just the same motif spreading over on the country. - Well, and I think a lot of this 1980 John Wayne Gacy performing a Hogo the clown. - Yeah, he had been convicted in 1980. So I think it was probably some sort of cultural panic over that. - Yeah, John Wayne Gacy was not a good clowns. - He really fucked up the image of clowns in a pretty serious way. Torch and murdered at least 33 young men and boys between 72 and 78. Not good. Happened to also work as a clown before he started killing possibly during. - Yeah. - Oublie. - I was also reminded when we were putting this episode together that the Joker in the 40s was a really strong image of clowns. - Joker is a clown. - He's a clown. I sort of almost forget that. - Yeah, yeah, me too. - When I think of Heath Ledger, he's a fucking clown. - And Joaquin Phoenix. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean it. - So there's so much embedded in the pop culture here which is just everywhere. A few quick bonus facts, 'cause I know our listeners love facts. It's thought the most ancient clowns ever. Fifth, fifth, dynasty of Egypt, 2400 BC. First difficulty comes very before America was even here. There were clowns, if you can believe that. Then Middle Ages court gestures, gestures. - Ah, yes, yes, yes. - And then when it comes to America, we get into circus clowns and that sort of clowns really took off here. - In hospital clowns. - So again, if you wanna go listen to Canada part one, learn how David finds them to be the most Canadian thing. - Yeah, that's a question. - Those are the clowns of course you mentioned that earlier. 1946, Ronald McDonald, Guilford mentioned Ronald. Something I was surprised about is that at one point, at peak Ronald, there were 300 full-time Ronalds out there. Acting as the clown in the community, which kind of blew my mind. He had his debut in 1963. He's around less now. - Oh, Bozo proceeds. - Bozo proceeds Ronald. - Yeah. - Bozo 1946, Ronald McDonald, '63. - Which David Arcatt has bought the rights to Bozo the clown. - Get out. - To franchise. - It'll be interesting to see what he does with that. - This was years ago, so I don't know what's happening with it, but-- - I wonder how much the rights were for a clown for an iconic American clown, that's fascinating. And then once the scary clown epidemic of 2016, Ronald McDonald is seen out less and less and less. And he's seen very, really now. He's sort of not really a thing that they do. All because some kids started to dress up as clowns and stand in the woods and terrify people. - I can't be the origins of it. - I don't know. - That is scared of clowns. - Well, that's what surprised me. They were a bit like, I was surprised. That's what Goof would keep saying. The scary clown epidemic was what shifted for him. Like, that's when he found people start to go, oh, this is weird, this is crazy. And my mind, it was it because of my childhood. That was the thing. - Well, in like horror nights and terrifier and stuff. - That stuff existed, but I guess it was fringe enough. - Yeah, it didn't transcend everyone's perception of clowns. - Yeah, totally. The doc we mentioned, he made a documentary, American clown, which is Scott John C. Riley and some other kind of heavy hitters in there. And just sort of breaks down what makes clowns interesting. And I highly recommend it as Halloween. Watch terrify an American clown and your Halloween will be sorted. - Did you watch any of the remakes of it? - I watched both of them. - First one was great. Second one, mess a piece of shit. That was my heart take on that. Did you watch them? - No, I think I have too much PTSD with the it franchise. - Interesting, I'll say you would go there. - I don't need to. I don't need to. - Yeah, you've got enough stress in your life besides introducing that. - I will say though, I was healed from it a bit. I'd never had watched it fully through as a kid. I turned it off because it was very long. And then in my teenage years, I finally saw the end of it where he turns into a giant, the spoiler, an alien spider. - Yes. - And it was like, this is so stupid. I should never have been afraid of this. And it healed all the wounds I had of. - I have to say the imagery in the book by Stephen King was a lot scarier. Did not translate well into film. - And interestingly enough, in the '80s, '90s. - Yeah, also when the remake, though, and the second part to the new one, also didn't translate that well. Better in book form. Although the book does have a weird scene where all the kids running a train on a fellow child, which is not great. Age very badly. - Yes. - Anyway, it's a very strange book. That scene didn't make it into either the miniseries or the film, which is a very good thing. Feedback. I found this incredibly funny. And I don't know who did this with our Bigfoot episode. Restarby. I used to do a cryptozoologically themed podcast with him a very long time ago. Reese left a comment under our flight this bird post on National Bigfoot Day pointing out that Bigfoot is one word, not two words. And we had quite a lot of funny comments about naming Bigfoot Big Space Foot. Some people think he was going to be an episode about my feet. - I mean, have you checked it? Have you checked Spotify or Patreon? - No. - Has it changed lately? - Oh no, what about it? - Bigfoot Day, it's being updated. - Yes. - So I don't know what they're talking about. (laughing) - It's really good. Bigfoot. First name, Big. Sick in name, foot. Of course. It's good, I enjoyed it very much. It really reinforces the nerddom of it. - Yeah. - Is that a word? - It can be. - That we got called out for. - I think valid. - Yeah, I think valid too. But I'm expecting nothing less. Ray wrote in, longtime listener. Yada, yada, yada. I was listening to the Bigfoot episode while getting ready for work this morning. Well, I work at a planetarium. So every day I teach people of all ages about space. It's a pretty good job, but it also means I'm confronted with every flavor of space-related conspiracy theorist on a nearly daily basis. I'd like to say I've heard it all, but people still surprise me. Moon landing deniers are the tip of the iceberg. I've also heard hollow moon. Space isn't real, UFOs, and everyone's favorite flat earthes. A few months ago we had a couple of flat earthes visit our planetarium, which is just such a delightful place. - Yeah, they're just going to mark this, please. - I, just flat earthes walking into a planetarium is so good. - Yeah. - They're ironically, it was a man and a woman, and they seemed genuinely scared by the shape of the room, which was dome-shaped. (laughing) They stormed out early and cussed out my volunteers, Asia, telling her off of spreading lies about the spherical globe. As I was even work, the flat earth a man was waiting out by the parking lot. He followed me to my car, muttering at me and spat on me as I walked past. Actually quite full on. I wish I could say these people are silly and harmless, but they had me genuinely concerned about my safety. As for moon landing deniers, I find them more annoying than anything that was Ray. A wonderful email. So much shows up at a planetarium. They're there to be combative. It's not like they don't know that this is what people think and that a planetarium would be teaching. So to be shocked in a pod seems like they knew what they were doing. I went to a flat earth conference in New Zealand. Maybe as a believer, as a believer, so this is back in the day. No, I went to cover it for the new station I was working for and this would have been maybe 2015 or so. And most of the flat earth is they're all young earth creationists. So this is weird overlap between conservative Christianity and flat earth is. And they were just entirely convinced it was I sort of thought part of it would be a certain sense of humor or pushing into something for the sake of it. They were very serious about it. We need to send you to more conventions. I could not agree more. Just there's so many good ones here. Yeah, but we have to go to to small town conventions that agree you need to go to the LA conventions. I think crystal conventions anything about aliens visiting anything about telepathic healing. I think like John will how to a John Wilson, like a vacuum convention for you. I see you even they'll see me generic go to like a Hilton where they're doing conventions. You could just do that. Go to the health and conference center on any like given weekend and there'll be something happening. But in like El Paso or Scottsdale, Arizona. I love this. I'm done. Finally, Matthew said, I live alone in a modern high floor apartment where I've never seen any insects or spiders apart from one time. And I believe Matthew is running to us because we went on an extended rant about fruit flies. A few years back while eating breakfast at the kitchen counter, I noticed a single fruit fly hovering near, but not on me on my breakfast. As it wasn't really bothering me, I let it be continued to hover in the background until I put everything away and left for work. Same routine for the next few days, starting in my breakfast. Tiny fly approached but did not land on me on my food. When I finished a flew off to wherever it is that tiny flyers go and they're not keeping people company. I felt bad for the fly so I left out a small piece of fruit. Guess this is enough substance as I hang around the kitchen counter for the next couple of weeks. Even in the best of times fruit flies only live for 50 days. At some point I noticed the fruit fly was no longer joining me for breakfast. I still kind of miss it. A bit young. This is a great pivot. Oh, her mom had pet flies. That's what this is about. Not the. You're right. Yes, he was. A bit young is a talented musician who came across as an intelligent, well-rounded person. If only more dudes would focus on being nice to the occasional fruit fly that finds their way into that kitchen rather than harassing her, the world would be a better place. Thank you, Matt. Now that is some quality feedback but a man befriending a fruit fly leaving fruit out while he goes to work and likening that back to an episode with a bit of English as a great epi. Yes. We are on all the places. We can email us, [email protected] with any of your feedback about clowns. I'd love to know your feelings about them. You can watch us unspartify now with less ads. Yes. And we're on YouTube, Patreon. Patreon.com/flightlessbred. Come join and we'll see you next week. See you next week.