Sayyid Qutb: Poet, Reactionary, Islamist (Part 1)

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Welcome back to Conflict It with me, Thomas Small, and my illustrious co-host, Amin Dean. Amin, I've got a pretty hefty quote from today's subject to start things off for you. Hopefully this will set the tone for these next two episodes. Here's the quote. All Western nations take their bearings from one source and that is the materialistic civilization that has no heart and no moral conscience. It is a civilization that does not hear anything except the sound of machines and does not speak of anything but commerce. How I hate and disdain those Westerners, all of them without exception. What do you reckon Amin coming in a bit strong, don't you think? - That sounds very familiar to think, Zed, that you would have believed a while ago, Thomas. (laughing) - I guess I actually, as I was reading it, I thought, hmm, I think maybe in the last season of Conflict It, I said things like that. (laughing) But in fact, that quote was from the 20th century Egyptian, scholar, educator and martyr, who many view as the real inspiration behind Salafi jihadism, Sayid Kutub. He was a poet, a writer, an Easteat, but also dogmatic, sexually repressed, and obsessed with the purity of his religion. - For me, he is the Voltaire that the Muslim world craved in it during the time of colonization. - He's the final stop in this journey we've been taking through the Islamic thinkers who have shaped Salafi jihadism today, a truly modern, truly radical, romantic. Let's get into it. (upbeat music) So Amin, how is Sayid Kutub different from those hand-belief figures that we've been exploring in this series? He was not a hand-belief. I think we need to make that clear from the start. Ahmed bin Hambal, Ibn Taymiyah, Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab are firmly in the hand-belief tradition, but Sayid Kutub is not, and yet, he is equally, if not more important, to the phenomenon of Salafi jihadism and, in general, Islamist radicalism today. So how is Kutub different from that tradition, Amin? Oh, he is different. So different from all the other three figures that we have discussed earlier, Ibn Hambal, Ibn Taymiyah, and Ibn Abdul Wahab. And why? Because he differs from them in several areas. One, he is not a theologian. He is a writer, a poet, a thinker, a philosopher, and most importantly, an ideolog, who put together a political and an ideological, and a philosophical framework for radical Islam in the 20th and 21st century. He was a political visionary, really. He had a political visionary in a way that maybe bin Abdul Wahab was, obviously, in bin Abdul Wahab's relationship with Muhammad bin Saud in the creation of a state to further the Dawah, Wahabiyah, the Wahabi mission. But Sayid Kutub was a modern political ideolog. Indeed, he was the product of his time. But also, we have to state that he comes from a Sufi family. He was never a hambali or a salafi. Nonetheless, this man, the most unlikely of people would have the greatest impact on salafism and hambali-salafism to be more precise in the 20th and the 21st century. - So as I've said, unlike the others in this series, Sayid Kutub was a modern man. Unlike the others in this series, he received no traditional religious education apart from memorizing the Quran as a child. This is typical of many modern Islamist ideologues. They do not come out of the traditional medrisis of Islam. They do not receive the classical Muslim formation. They receive a modern education and based on that education, they bring modern categories of thinking to Islam to erect a new form of Islam, which is often called Islamism. Sayid Kutub was a voluminous writer. That's something he has in common with many of our figures, especially Abuntamiya. His main books, social justice in Islam, milestones, and in the shade of the Quran will come to as we unfold his life story. But these books have had an enormous impact on salafi jihadism especially. I imagine, Aiman, that when you were a young jihadist yourself in the salafi jihadist movement inside Al-Qaeda, Sayid Kutub was in the air to put it lightly. - Sayid Kutub was in my life before even, I joined the jihadist movement in 1994 when I went to Bosnia. - He probably influenced your decision to join that movement. - Absolutely, I mean, the man was there in our house on the bookshelf because his books were an essential reading for many young men and women growing up in the Gulf and in Egypt and in Iraq and in many other Muslim nations across the world. - So what about inside the jihadist movement once you were there? - That was Sayid Kutub's ghostly presence in the movement. - His book, Myel Stones, which is in Arabic called "Malatariq" was considered the constitution of the modern jihadist movement. - We'll get to Myel Stones in our second episode on Sayid Kutub. But you're saying that literally there were copies of the book around people would quote from the book. I mean, what about like Osama bin Laden people like that? Were they clearly influenced by Sayid Kutub? - It was impossible not to see the fingerprints of Sayid Kutub's writings and ideology influencing their sermons, influencing their strategy, influencing their tactics and recruitment and literature. He was there. I mean, he is the ever present ideologue as if he was the man behind the curtain, the wizard of Oz. I remember that one of our theology instructors from Al Qaeda in one of the camps. He used to say that you see, we have thousands of scholars that we could quote on matters of theology and jurisprudence. But there is only one true philosopher and an ideologue that we could rely on for the political and strategic framework of our movement. And that would be Sayid Kutub. - Sayid Kutub, well, let's get right into his life. My reading in preparation for this episode focused on John Calvert's classic book now. Sayid Kutub and the origins of radical Islamism. As well as Sayid Kutub's own writings, which as I said are voluminous. So it would have been impossible for me to read at all, but I certainly had a good dive into it. My goodness, what a great writer he was. As we'll see. So as you mentioned, Amen. He was born in 1906 in a small village, the village of Musha in upper Egypt. So that means southern Egypt. It lay on the West Bank of the Nile along that narrow strip of cultivated land, that makes Egypt so distinctive when viewed from above. - Indeed, yeah. - A world of farmers, you know, a relatively prosperous, relatively egalitarian village. I like the look. little detail that there was a captic monastery nearby. There was also the domed tomb of a Sufi saint, Sheikh Abdul Fatah, his name was. So, Said Kutub's childhood was really immersed in something like age-old traditional Egyptian, pastoral, peasant Islam. Indeed. The other thing is that Said Kutub's birthplace is called also an Arabic aside, which also means a plateau, you know, a higher land. And the Egyptian listeners would feel some affinity when I tell them that it is the tradition in Egypt to make jokes about the people of Said. Said's and Said's, you know, as they are called, are the butt of, you know, the jokes in Egypt, because they're always described as those tough yet dim people, conservative, you know, and simple. But Said Kutub was anything but dim. No, he was certainly not dim. He was maybe a diamond in the rough, in that sense, if his fellow Saidys were physically tough, but dim-witted people. His father was a farmer. By that, I mean a landowner, a small-holding landowner. The family had once been rich, but its fortunes had declined in the previous generations. Again, like many revolutionaries, like many radical thinkers, Said Kutub grew up with a family memory of past prosperity. I think this kind of sense of resentment coming from a poorer background, it may have sowed the seeds for what would definitely be a common refrain in his adult life of contempt for the bourgeoisie, contempt for rich people. Said Kutub did, indeed, hate the massive inequality that was happening in Egypt. The stratification of the society in Egypt was so vast that the top was so far from the bottom, and the bottom was resembling really Egypt's pyramids. I mean, really, you know, just like the pyramids in Egypt, the society was so stratified, you know, and the inequality was so outrageous. So he hated the bourgeoisies of Egypt. He hated that wealth concentration at the top, but that did not make him a communist. He was never a communist, unlike what some academics in later years would have described him as. That's right. Kutubism, if you could call it that, and Salafi Jihadism in general is often conflated with revolutionary communism, like the Bolshevik revolution, these sorts of ideas. And of course, there's some overlap because it's all radicalism in the end of the day, but you're right. Said Kutub was not a communist. He would have agreed with communists about some of the problems facing society, but his solutions to those problems were not communistic, as we will see down the line. One important thing, I think, about his childhood, and about the environment in which he grew up, that left a lifelong sort of stamp on him, was the superstition, if you like, that saturated his village. Now, you mentioned that he, he came from a Sufi family. There's no indication that he himself was ever initiated into a Sufi order, but Sufism, by which I really mean that traditional pre-Salafi, pre-reformed Islam of the classical Islamic world, was powerfully present in his childhood. You demons, ghosts, revelatory dreams were everywhere. There were disheveled dervishes around, playing the fool, whom the peasants considered holy men, and Said Kutub believed intensely in this universe, in this enchanted religious universe as a child. Well, the society around him was superstitious. There is no question about it. In fact, he himself, when he was young, you know, practiced exorcism. Of course, like, I mean, please, dear listener, don't think it is the same as, you know, you see in some horror movies about what exorcism in Catholic sense feels like. It's a bit different, but nonetheless, he did practice exorcism, you know, as a young man to cross the way demons, you know, who possess humans. You know, Said Kutub would eventually, as we'll see shortly, have a modern education, and as he emerged into adulthood, he would begin to dismiss the superstitions of his childhood as ignorant, but he would always romanticize this peasant way of seeing the world like many reactionaries today. And I think this is really key, who talk about the quote unquote disenchantment of the world. Said Kutub mourned that disenchantment in the modern world around him. And then eventually, he would see that peasant superstitious faith, let's say, driven imaginative way of seeing the world as chronically grounded. He would go full circle and return to affirming quite powerfully that way of seeing the world, the enchanted way. But we'll get to that in the next episode. For now, as a child, Kutub craved education. He really wanted to learn. Two of his uncles had studied at Al-Azhar, the great center of Muslim learning in Cairo. And Al-Azhar scholars visited the village of Musha when he was a child, and he would attend lectures by them on Tefsir, on Quranic interpretation. He loved education. At age six, just like many children in Egypt at that time, he enrolled into a state-run primary school that was generally secular, but with some Quranic instructions there, an Arabic as well. However, two years into his education in that state school, there were rumors that the state is going to stop all together Quranic instructions in the schools that they run. So of course, like in his father, who was deeply religious thought, no, no, no, no, no. So he would draw him from that school and then rolled him into a proper Quranic school. If at early hint of that kind of paranoia that would haunt Said Kutub al-Huz-Layf, that modern westernized or westernizing institutions were always on the verge of attacking Islam. His father must have felt that the people of Musha definitely felt that. And so, yes, he was pulled out of the state school, enrolled in a traditional Quran school, which Said Kutub absolutely hated. Well, he did enroll into the Quranic school, but unlike the state run school, the Quranic school wasn't properly funded, wasn't properly run, it was dirty, it was makeshift, and he just wasn't happy there. He wanted to go back to the rigorous, well-run, well-funded school, and his father in the end agreed with him. And again, there you see, there's hints of that puritanistic kind of OCD tendency, when he liked the ordered, clean, hygienic world of modernity. Well, at the same time, hating that world for spoiling or polluting the ideological and idealistic purity of his mind. You know, it's a very confused kind of dualistic way of approaching things, very common to lots and lots of radicals. So yes, he begged his father to send him back to the state school, his father capitulated. And yet, Said Kutub didn't want to neglect Quranic studies, and in fact, in the state school, he organized pupils to memorize the Quran by themselves. And by the time he was 10 years old, he had memorized the Quran. Later on, he would claim that this Quranic memorization was what planted the seeds of what was going to soon emerge as an intensely creative side to his character. To be honest, I've seen a lot of my friends, and that actually include myself, those young boys who embarked on memorizing the Quran. I started when I was nine and I finished when I was 12. I can relate to his experience because really, the memorization of the Quran opened the mind so much to many other possibilities. So actually, my love for poetry, when I was young, my love for reading, all sparked because of the memorization of the Quran. His experience was ours. Exactly. So I can relate. He definitely loved reading. He would eagerly collect books, going to traveling booksellers and buying whatever they had to sell. According to Calvert, he collected 25 books over his childhood. Books that straddled the divide between traditional subjects and modern subjects. So he loved Sherlock Holmes stories, for example, which I love, that's hilarious. But he also read books on astrology and magic. As you said, he began performing exorcisms. And then as a teenager, he began to become politically aware. I think we need to kind of remind the listener, especially the listener who followed last season of conflicted when we talked about Egypt in great detail, that he grew up in a world that was living in the shadow of Muhammad Ali's reforms to Egypt's political economy. You're going to have to go back, listener, to episode six of the last season to learn all about Muhammad Ali, who beginning in the early 19th century radically transformed Egypt. So a strong centralized state had emerged. It had a abolished tax farming and instead introduced a modern tax gathering bureau. bureaucracy. This had forced the peasants to grow cash crops for export in order to generate cash to pay the state. This is all very modern sort of thing. This had led to what is like the equivalent of the British enclosures. So the land had become a commodity and the central government had been dispensing parcels of land to members of the aristocracy creating this wealthy new overclass. So in a way the process that sort of England had undergone in the 16th and 17th centuries Egypt had undergone in the 19th century. Law had been somewhat secularized. The Sharia had been limited to domestic affairs only. So though we said before that Kutub grew up in a world that was traditional in terms of its world view, in fact that world was modern and it was a village world that was in profound flux. He was living in a world that had been radically transformed and perhaps unsurprisingly it led to political agitation on the ground. Oh, Egypt was going through turmoil in when he was born. The year he was born 1906 there was an incident in Egypt. It's called the Donshway incident. Donshway actually was a massacre which happened when a clash happened between villages, farmers, in the village of Donshway in the West Nile Delta when they clashed with British soldiers. So the British open fire, many people were killed including women and that of course led to administrations across Egypt and the calls for the British to leave, of course, like I mean that never happened. But nonetheless this is the same year that Kutub was born and then of course Egypt remained under direct British mandate all the way until 1922. So by that time Said was a 16 year old, the teenager. He was of course aware of all the agitation, the riots, the demonstrations, the clashes with the British authorities to the point where the king of Egypt at that time, you know, who was known as a Sultan, decided that you know what the British need to grant some independence at least even if it is superficial just to place the masses. And this is exactly what happened. So this is the society, the agitated Egypt that Said Kutub was living in at that time. And not to mention of course during his childhood the first world war broke out and the two of the parties in that war were the British against the Ottomans and Egypt was sort of technically still part of the Ottoman Empire even if the British in fact dominated it entirely. And families like Said Kutub's tended to support the Ottomans against the British in that war. And Said Kutub's father was no different. His father became a political activist at that time. And Said Kutub would join in his father's meetings and would be asked to read out nationalistic articles to the largely illiterate activists. So that's an important point to stress. Nationalism was in the air. Now some nationalists in Egypt wanted Egyptian nationalism to be modeled on European norms. Others were already inclining toward a more Islamic conception of Egyptian national identity. As Said Kutub would have been caught in the middle of this sort of swirling nationalist discourse. But at that time he became animated in his fervor against the British. And this was given even greater impetus in 1919 during the nationwide uprising against the British that occurred following the first world war when Egypt was refused an independent place at the Paris Peace Conference. The British wanted to negotiate on their behalf. Again 13-year-old Said gave nationalist speeches in mosques. And already in these nationalistic speeches, he was praising the caliphate. He was praising Islam. So the seeds of his later ideology were already being sown. Again, Thomas, I feel like his childhood mirrors a lot of much childhood. Feeling the sense of endangerment to identity, to faith, to the pan-Islamic bond that bonded many of the world's Muslims together. Now say it in his speeches because don't forget many of them are not his but he was reading in the articles he was borrowing from all of these writers but at the same time he is not forgetting his Islamic education that the caliphate is still there even though it is as Western as it could be. I mean the caliphs were living a Western lifestyle. I mean they were wearing Western uniforms. They were drinking Western wines and whiskeys. They were absolutely as detached from proper Islamic way as it could be. Yet he felt it. He felt that impact because of pan-Islamism which shows that even in the late 1910s the feeling of pan-Islamic solidarity was still strong even in the remote parts of the former Ottoman Empire. So the caliphate, you know, sadly for Said Kotob would be abolished just a few years later by Kamal Atatürk and of course we talked about it in the Turkey episode of season 3. Please dear listener go and listen to it. By that time Said was already in Cairo. In fact he moved aged 15 in 1921 to Cairo to finish his education there. So that must have been a huge shock to him. Cairo was a divided city. It had a very modern European half and a very medieval Islamic half in a way. It still has that to to this day. The population of Cairo had only recently reached one million which these days doesn't sound like a lot to us but in the early 20th century was a lot indeed. Compared to his village upbringing the young Said Kotob's experience of Cairo must have been incredibly shocking especially this division that it manifested between the modern west and the medieval Islamic world. He finished his education in Cairo at a state secondary school and then a few years later aged 23 he was admitted to the Dar al-Alum which was a sort of teacher training institution and would after graduating from there begin his career inside Egypt's ministry of public instruction and then he would move later to the ministry of education. And that's where we'll leave him while we take this break. We'll leave him freshly minted young educationalist working inside the ministry of education inside Cairo and when we get back we'll see that he's just on the verge of a new chapter in his life as he joins the glittering a high society world of Cairo's burgeoning literary elite we'll be right back. Are you ever shopping online and suddenly a discount that helps you save pops up? It makes your day sometimes even your week. Want that feeling month after month? Well new customers who save by switching their home and auto insurance to progressive save hundreds. Cue your happy dance. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates another insurance not available in all states. The Secret Society of semi homemade listen up. Sam's Club has pre-made dishes for a Thanksgiving feast that's ready in two hours all while tasting suspiciously homemade. Come join us. Sam's Club. Individual oftentimes may vary. We're back dear listener. Sayad Kutub is our subject. He is now what is he 27 years old? The year is 1933. He's living in Cairo. He is working inside the Ministry of Education and his father dies. Now Aiman I don't know you can perhaps speak to this from Middle Eastern point of view. I think it would have been expected at that time for him to then go home to take up the sort of family business of farming but he didn't. Well of course he didn't because how could you expect someone who experienced modern life and modern education to go back and take up farming. I mean it would be way beneath him. It is the literary circles of Cairo. Those beautiful cafes where intellectuals would meet and debate and talk about the latest issues of politics. War is brewing in Europe. It is in 1930s. In fact 1933 the year in which one of Kutub's possible influences I would say would take power in Germany Hitler. Europe is going through political turmoil again and therefore why would said Kutub in leave Cairo where he is in touch with the rest of the world and go back to the you know backwater village where he came from. No no no no that's not Sayad Kutub's destiny. For seven years he'd been a primary school teacher in various places across Egypt but yes Cairo was always sort of beckoning him back. He eventually settled in the well to do and modern Cairo in suburb of hell one. He bought a house and invited his mother and his siblings to join him there. So you know he's going to become the anti-western anti-modern ideologue but he quite likes the comforts of modern life as well. This is not unusual. Isn't that alright? I mean, have you noticed like many hate preachers and many of these islamist jihadists living in London, and Paris, and Berlin, and Munich, and preaching from there, sending people to die, but they and their kids like, you know, stay in the comforts of these places, I mean, come on. It's as old as the beginning of the century. Calm down, calm down. We have to do, say, and could adjust as he was not yet an islamist firebrand. In fact, he was a poet, a novelist, a literary critic. He was part of a very vibrant, a very dynamic literary scene in Cairo. In fact, it was his literary criticism, which he was publishing in journals up and down the country that brought Nagib Mahfuz to the public. But he was influenced by Mahfuz to the public's attention, for example. I mean, Sayed Kutub can be attributed with sort of discovering that man who would go on to win the Nobel Prize for literature and is in arguably the greatest writer of modern Egypt. Sayed Kutub adopted a modernist literary style. Now, again, a bit of an irony. He loved modernist writing. It's clarity. It's straightforward means of expression. He didn't like the classical Arabic style at all. He thought that it was too complicated. He thought that it was too elite. It was too formal. He liked the rigorous, but sort of direct expressiveness of modernism. But at this point in his career, he was laying the foundations for a literary style that I think Amin you would agree became extremely powerful. In fact, it became the standard. I mean, Sayed Kutub can be partially accredited with modernizing the modern Arabic writing that is easily accessible to the new generations of Arabs in the 20th century. And for that, most Arabic writing was theological and formal. And to some extent, really inaccessible to the vast majority of people. So the way he made modern writing seem so eloquent, elegant with deep, beautiful prose that would enchant those who read them. You see, this is his magic, not the demons magic, not the excesses of magic, but the magic of the pen. And he will wield this magic so powerfully in the next decades. I mean, not only prose, as I say, he was a poet. And Sayed Kutub's poetry is very similar to the romantic existentialist poetry of Europe of that time. But more than just the poetry itself, it was like the philosophy, the literary philosophy of the time he found very appealing. He believed that poetry appealed to the emotions, not the intellect. And he began to develop a theory of the imagination as the primary means whereby the mind knows things. So there was a bit of an anti-rationalist bent to his understanding of the human mind. He was much more of an Easteat. He was much more of an artist than a true philosopher in that sense. And in this way, he found himself a fellow traveler amongst a whole generation of reactionary, right-leaning literary figures in Europe. People who valued the imagination, someone like D.H. Lawrence in England, someone who believed in things like the blood, things like the instinctive engagement with the world, things like how natural forms, trees, dirt, ocean, sky, impinged themselves on the imagination and revealed truths that transcended the reason. This kind of world is the one that Sayed Kotob was swimming in. And I think it would influence his Islamist ideology down the line profoundly. But remember Thomas that Sayed Kotob in fact was the quintessential Egyptian bureaucrat. He is precisely similar to the people who would wear a bowler hat in England and be the typical quintessentially English civil servant. It's true that he was a sort of, he had a dual character. He had this inner self of imaginative fire, but an external self of a kind of technocratic bureaucrat, as you say, they were known as offenders. Yeah, you see Egypt was a very class-oriented society. In fact, that class divided society in Egypt of the first half of the 20th century is still influencing Egypt to this day. Can you believe it? So he was an affendi and they are given that respect. So he was a respected upper middle class in a gentleman civil servant. And in his work as a bureaucrat within the Ministry of Education, he, for example, opposed religious conformism and called for the teaching of secular subjects alongside religious subjects. I mean, this is, again, you might be surprised by this, dear listener, because he is the great anti-Western, anti-modern ideologue of Salafi Jihadism, but he actually hated and was rather embarrassed by the traditional superstitious Islam of the peasant world. And he wanted the state to transform Egyptians into modern, let's say, efficient people, people who could stand shoulder to shoulder with modern Westerners. Indeed, because don't forget, he is not a traditional theologian. He wasn't a theologian. He was, at the end of the day, the product of a modern education in Egypt. And he wanted Egyptians to master engineering, medicine, architecture, and the ability to start industry. He really envisioned an industrial Egypt at some point in the future. And therefore, how can you have an industrial Egypt without industrious minds that are graduated from industrial schools? You can't do that for Malaysia. You have to have a proper education that is based on modern science. Romantic poet, utilitarian technocrat, that said, could to bet this time in his career, it kind of seems to us a contradiction, but at the time it was not a contradiction. There were a lot of such people around as the new modern world was being forged out of the great depression and all the swirling political geopolitical economic and cultural chaos of the 1930s, which did not leave Egypt untouched. And it is in that swirling great depression, inflicted chaos, that friend of the show, Fat Farouk arrived on the scene. Dear listeners, you remember, you remember Operation Fat Fucker from series three when Fat Farouk was ousted by the colonels, including Nasser, who would overthrow the monarchy in Egypt. That's down the line. In 1936, aged only 16, Fat Farouk became the king of Egypt. And at the time, nationalists, including people like Sayed Kutub, I think at this time he would still have considered himself a nationalist, had big hopes for Fat Farouk. They thought that his father, King Fuad, had capitulated too much to the British during his reign. And so they hoped that King Farouk, who actually was not yet that fat, would tilt the balance back in favor of Egyptian sovereignty. That very year, 1936, he did sign the Anglo-Egyptian treaty, which was seen as a step forward by Egyptian nationalists as it relegated British troops to the Suez Canal zone only. But their high hopes for good old Fat Farouk didn't last long. They were particularly upset, especially I think the more conservative among them, like Sayed Kutub, they were particularly upset by King Farouk's notorious moral turpitude, if you could put it that way. Well, Thomas, whatever Fat Hope that those nationalists had in Fat Farouk, unfortunately, that Fat Hope didn't materialize. You see, Farouk was a gluttonous, lecherous individual with an incredible appetite for oysters and women. Nonetheless, I mean, of course, if you are going to do that in Egypt in the 1930s and 40s, remember that Egypt was at the time extremely stratified. I likened it to a pyramid. The Egypt of the 1930s and 40s, that many Egyptians right now romanticize as the age of the Cadillac's cars and the Mercedes-Benz and the parties and all of this opulence. This was only, you know, experienced by less than two, three percent of the society. The rest of society was nothing but peasants. And this is, you know, why the anger towards Farouk's reinforcement of this stereotype of the detached elite and the fact that he has immersed himself so indulgently in all of these vices has more or less disappointed his subjects who are growing weary with the fact that the world around the world. And the fact that the world around them is changing, there is a war, a world war about to happen just three years into his reign. King Farouk would see Egypt even being more controlled by the British to prevent the Suez Canal from falling into the Italians and the Germans. And with the world falling around them, the Egyptians didn't have that much confidence in their king and his ability to roll. Kota was certainly among those Egyptians, his thinking, which was appearing more and more often as essays in journals. He was becoming more well-known as a writer, as a thinker, and in addition to his work as a poet and a novelist. His thinking focused more and more on Turath, on heritage. And in his thinking about Egypt's Turath, its heritage, he characterized Egypt as having something uniquely spiritual and ethical about it. And again, in this vein of thinking, he was not unlike a lot of continental European, especially thinkers at the time. Thinkers who talked about how the spirit of a nation is a kind of metaphysical substance, and each nation has its own spirit that the nation must live truly by. And especially in places like Germany, this kind of thinking was widespread. And in the same way that some thinkers at the time were talking about the German nation, Kotob was talking about the Egyptian nation. Now, the difference, of course, is that Sayyid Kotob was a Muslim, and Islam can easily cut against European-style ethnic nationalism because of the concept of the Ummah. So there's a tension at this time in Sayyid Kotob's thought. He's always talking about Egypt, Egypt's particularity. It's especially spiritual nature. He's also talking about the Islamic Ummah, the loss of the caliph, and how Islam in general has this unique spirit against which the West is corruptive and corrosive. So there's a tension there that is going to be tipping more and more in the more Islamic direction as his life unfolds. Especially thanks to a new movement that just at this time was gaining speed in Egypt. What movement, Amin? Am I talking about? Well, of course, since 1928, Egypt was going through a steady and well-organized spiritual transformation, especially among the middle classes and the upper middle classes led by a man called Hassan Al-Bennah, who founded the Muslim Brotherhood. Hassan Al-Bennah, again, dear listener, you'll recall that in the last series of conflicted, we talked about Hassan Al-Bennah at some length. For now, I think, came and you'll agree, Hassan Al-Bennah and Sayyid Kotob have a lot in common, like Kotob, for example. Al-Bennah was also a village boy who left the village to become a school teacher. He also attended the Dar al-Alum in Cairo, the teacher training college. He was also somewhat mystically inclined, but the differences are as vast as the similarities, because unlike Sayyid Kotob, Benah was always intensely pious. He didn't go through a similar phase of being a kind of literary figure in Eastthite, a hobnobbing with the new intellectual elite within Cairo. He was always an intensely pious Muslim, and instead of becoming a man of letters, Benah became a preacher activist from a young age. Indeed. And this is why, while the two never met, you know that? Well, I think we need to point out, Amen, that Sayyid Kotob didn't join the Muslim Brotherhood until 1953, you know, much down the line. But we're at least saying that the Muslim Brotherhood was in the air. So while Hassan Al-Bennah and Sayyid Kotob never met yet, when Sayyid Kotob would write about Hassan Al-Bennah in the future, he would write about him with reverence, and as if the two had met in real life. When Benah moved the Muslim Brotherhood Organization to Cairo in 1932, he adopted the full range of modern political means of spreading his movement. Now, like Kotob, he had an almost populist admiration for the Egyptian people, Hassan Al-Bennah would talk a lot about the Egyptian people and their unique character as well. And so the means, the propaganda means, if you want to call them that, that he adopted, did dovetail quite neatly with Nazi strategy to some extent. And I think, Amen, there's even some indications that Hassan Al-Bennah would have been influenced by the example of the growing national socialist movement in Germany. So for example, Hassan Al-Bennah established the Rover Scout units instilling in young male recruits a sense of chivalry for Tuwa, but very much along a kind of modern disciplined lines. Yeah, it was there because you see, remember that it was the 1920s and 1930s, the political movements in Egypt and in Turkey and many other places, when they see the success of Mussolini's fascists, and then later with Hitler's Nazis, to benefit from the experience of other movement doesn't necessarily mean that you emulate them entirely, you just emulate the tactics. And just like Al-Qaeda used to teach us about the successful takeover of Cuba in a by Castro and Guevara, it doesn't mean basically that they lack these communists, of course, far from it. I mean, they would have killed them on the spot if they meet them, but it's just how to emulate a successful strategy when you see it. And don't forget, Hassan Al-Bennah was not an idealog. He really wasn't. He was a moral campaigner. He was a good political organizer, but his ideas, his religious ideas were more or less traditionally fundamentalist, salafi ideas with some sufi inflections, but he wasn't a brilliant ideologue. And in fact, the Muslim Brotherhood at first didn't really possess an ideological program. This is something that people often don't quite get. The Muslim Brotherhood lacked an ideological superstructure until a bit later in its development, when a certain Saeed Qutab joined it. Now, as I said, that's not going to happen until 1953. And at the time, in the 1930s, we're still in the 30s, the Second World War is on the horizon. Saeed Qutab was not attracted to the Muslim Brotherhood. He was still an Eastthead. He was a literature. He thought that writers and thinkers like himself would be able through their work to organically influence the Egyptian nation to embrace their ideas. He was not writing about politics, per se. He was writing about cultural identity. His writings were more in defense of the Egyptian Muslim culture against what he sees as the European and Western decadence, and lack of morality, and the fact that such influences are corrupting the Egyptian society. Remember, it was all written, not from a political point of view. It was all written from the perspective of culture, not from the perspective of politics. And of course, it was all written during the time when King Farouk, of course, was known for his extravagant, over-the-top, partying, and drinking, and famous gluttonous indulgence. And I think it was more of an attack on the Western influences on the local culture, not necessarily because he basically wanted to declare Jihad against the Western. Anything like that? No, not at all. He was a cultural figure still. But within this sort of thinking about culture, spiritual things were creeping more and more into his writing. In fact, in the early 40s, he came under the influence of a French reactionary thinker called Alexis Carell, who was actually a eugenicist. He had views that we would now consider to be really beyond the pale. But at the time, he was a respected thinker. And he influenced Kutub, who began to argue that Western modernity was like the worship of the machine. He became obsessed with this idea that the Western world worshipped machines and elevated machines over the spirit, unlike Egypt, unlike Islam, unlike the East in general. Considering the technology that was existing in the 1930s and 40s, and he said that the Western's worshipping machines, what would he say right now with AI? What would he say? But the thing, amen, is that this kind of talk about the modernity as the worship of the machine against the human spirit is still very much with us. As we bring this episode towards its conclusion, I think that's where we should kind of be leaving it, that Sayyid Kutub's thinking, especially at this point in his career, before his Islamist turn, is still so powerfully persuasive to people, even to people like me. When I read what he has to say, criticizing modernity, criticizing the Western modern civilization, it just resonates. As you said at the beginning of this episode, the quote that I quoted could have been me at the end of last season. And it's true. You look around and you think that the modern world does worship the machine. It is highly utilitarian. It is highly materialistic. And it does tend to gobble absorb, destroy and neutralize all other cultures. I mean, that just is true. Kutab isn't, isn't wrong. Now, question is, is he an asshole? Well, unfortunately, it falls in or to me, Thomas, to defend the world again, you know, and the modern world against, you know, fundamentalists like you. Okay, how do you defend it? I don't really, I still don't quite, I mean, I'm not saying I want to burn the world down, not at all. I believe in God's providence. You know, I believe that ultimately all will be well and all manner of thing will be well. But you know, it's still kind of dispiriting living in this modern world, isn't it? I mean, it's a bit of a, a bit of a, you know, disappointment. Not necessarily seeing how many people lifted out of poverty, how many diseases has been cured, how many people no longer having to succumb to natural disasters because of modern world. I mean, I would say the modern world is a blessing. Well, Amen, you know, honestly, or you and I will never, we're never going to completely agree on this. How is it, how is it that I'm being schooled in embracing the modern world by a, by a former member of al-Qaeda? The modern world, the modern world will never, ever cease to amaze me. Well, let's bring this episode to a close, Amen, this first half of the life of Said Kutub. This is the story of Said Kutub before his Islamist turn. We're leaving him on the brink of the Second World War. We're leaving him a fully paid up member of Egypt's offendi class of bureaucrats and it's growing and powerful literary elite, it's poets, it's novelists, it's literary critics, it's thinkers. He's firmly opposed to Western culture now because it seems to him to be undermining Egyptian culture and he's about to link that complex of ideas to the complex of ideas that is emerging and which is called Islamism and which he will do more than anyone else to firmly and fully define. So that's where we'll leave him a very much a 20th century figure, very much a 1930s style reactionary figure and when we come back to the next episode we'll take up the story from the Second World War onwards as Said Kutub will find himself propelled really into global and certainly Muslim superstardom as the chief ideologue of the Muslim brotherhood. We'll see you next week. Stay tuned. A reminder that you can follow the show over on Facebook and Twitter at MH conflicted and for a deeper dive into all the subjects we talk about here on conflicted head over to Facebook and search conflicted podcast discussion group. There you will find other fans of the show engaging in heated debates and lightning conversations and just generally geeking out over conflicted related topics. Conflicted is a message heard production. This episode was produced and edited by Harry Stott. Sandra Ferrari is our executive producer. Our theme music is by Matt Huxley and Tom Biddle. It makes your day. Sometimes even your week. Well, new customers who save by switching their home and auto insurance to progressive save hundreds. Queue your happy dance. The secret society of semi homemade, listen up. Sam's Club has pre-made dishes for a Thanksgiving feast that's ready in two hours, all while tasting suspiciously homemade. Come join us. Sam's Club. 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