Say More - Neil Patrick Harris on Friendship

I love to do couple sessions or even individual sessions in the Esther Calling, but I also like to have conversations about particular aspects of the relational lives of people that I have admired. And I wanted to share a few of these conversations with you. One of them is Neil Patrick Harris, and I am very pleased to be able to offer you a listen on our Where Should We Begin feed. Enjoy. Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. The one and only Pumpkin Spice Latte and the deliciously smooth Iced Pecan Crunch Latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new Iced Banana Bread Latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can order now at www.pumpkinspice.com. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Fall is here, and that means the Pumpkin Spice Latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original Pumpkin Spice Latte or ready to mix it up with an Iced Pumpkin Cream Chai, the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Matcha, or the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Shaken Espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Friendships have always been something that has been a part of our lives. Some of the most important relationships in my life. And I think I learned this from watching my parents, who had a very active circle of friends. And often they would tell me, we survived the Jewish Holocaust all alone. We have no one, no family left. So we had friends. And I understood this concept of family of choice as friends probably before I ever learned that word itself. And recently, I have been very interested in expanding the idea that the word love and commitment are so often only connected to romantic relationships. And that in fact, love and commitment are deep elements of friendships. So I invited the actor Neil Patrick Harris to speak with me about friendship. And then I found out that he was turning 50, that he was having a, you know, a major birthday party and that he felt that he wasn't necessarily always a good friend. And I thought, hmm, what an opportunity here to actually bring in the subject of friendship, tie it in with his 50th birthday and give him a whole different perspective that I thought he could use. Voilà. Voilà. I'm wildly unprepared for what's about to happen. But you know, it's like therapy. Sometimes the best sessions are exactly the ones that started the way you just did. They're often the most exciting rather than I want to discuss this and then you kind of stay the course. But I thought, you know, one of the subjects that I'm in it at this moment because I've been dealing with health issues in the family, not mine. And I've really had to rely on my friends and my community. And I thought, you know, I talk so much about romantic relationships and about families and I'm actually fascinated by friendships. It's probably the first free choice relationship that any child gets to have is to choose their first friend, the one they want to play with. That's very true. We don't choose the siblings. We don't choose the parents. And so I thought, I'd love to have a conversation with him about friendship. Does that speak to you? Yeah, for sure. In interesting ways because my life has been lots of interesting chapters in a very dense and thick book. And within those chapters involved meeting new people, becoming very close with them. And then. Dispersing, like professionally speaking, right? And then meeting new people in a new chapter. Do you remember your first friend? Yeah, I think my first friend is a guy named Cody Willard who, strangely, given all that I just said, I'm actually still friends with. He still lives in New Mexico and he's just been a great friend through thick and thin. We don't talk often. But when we catch up, it's really nice to see him again. And there's an unconditional sort of love because we knew each other before anything. You know, I remember when I left Belgium and I went to study in Jerusalem. And I thought, how does one make friends with people who've never been in your home, who've never been in your house, who've never met your parents? Like, on what basis? Does that friendship get created? So much of our childhood friends is about knowing each other's context. Then I came to America. And then I was like, how do you make friends with people who've never heard about where you're from? You know, Belgium. And so the context becomes even more removed. And then, you know, as foreigners, when your parents come to visit and for the first time they meet your local friends, you know, there's this really sense of now you know who I really. Not that you didn't know who I am. But you know the person with this other dimension. Sure. Because you saw them in their family context. Or to see them later in their family context. You go, oh, that makes a lot more sense now that I see where all of this came from. Because I've been thinking about friendship in so many different aspects, including, you know, the difference between childhood friends and friends that we make as adults. Have you made friends? And not just people that you've worked with for an intense project. In which, you know, there's that creative burst. And that's a unique experience of its own. But really, are new people entering your life that become real central pillars of your life and become new friends? That's an interesting question. Because I struggle with bandwidth. And I only have so much of it to give. And a lot of it now has to go to the kids and to the family. And dinner. We have dinner together every night. Whether we're making it together or going to eat it at a restaurant or ordering in. But we do that together. That's an important thing. And that's a couple hours out of time that you would make friends otherwise. And then is the bedtime routine for the kids, which is anywhere between 8 and 9-ish. And then, unless you have a babysitter or something, that's the night. So starting at 9. 5, 5.30 every day is filled up with that. So it's hard to make friends outside of work. We all only have a limited time for contact, you know? Like, I have real friends that I didn't meet through work. And I like to prioritize them. But now I've met these new people who I would consider great friends, but I don't have the time to cultivate. The friendship without it being like, let's meet up every 10 days, two weeks. And then it feels like we're just catching up. Like, how's the show? What's been going on? I don't know. It's hard. It's tricky. I don't know. Part of what friends bring us is that it doesn't have to have a structure, a calendar, a schedule. I mean, I'm sure in your small town, people dropped in. And they still do. And they all work. And they all have kids. And they may not have the kind of career you have, but they may be busy. I have deep issues about, well, both feeling like I'm doing something good and finding out that it turned out to be bad. I don't know how that would be described in a more clinical way. And in disappointing people, like disappointing others. Yeah. So. In a friend scenario, well, I'll give you an example. I'm turning 50 years old on June 15th. I'm giving you an example by a long-winded story. And on April 26th, I received an envelope. And the envelope had a clue that I had to solve. And it turns out that April 26th is 50 days until my 50th birthday. My husband has created, well, he would deny this. Someone has created. Some system that every single day I'm receiving envelopes and videos and stories and having to solve things and go do exciting things every single day for 50 days until my 50th birthday, which is spectacular and terrifying and amazing and a whole other conversation. Within that, though, are times where one day I had to show up at a place in the afternoon and there were 15 friends at a bar and we all went on a bar crawl. For six hours until one o'clock in the morning. And I can't remember stumbling home. And I'm surrounded by friends that I have not seen. a while. And I was not good in this context. I felt fraudulent. As I was talking to one person, I was trying to remember the last time we talked and, right, oh, right, how was your trip to wherever? And then I turn and I see another friend and I haven't spoken to them in a while. And so then I try to catch up with them. But I don't know, it felt like I was trying to keep all these balls in the air. And I felt like I was disappointing all of them because it was my party. And I was like the center of it all. But I couldn't really give authentic time to everyone because of the context. And so I felt like I was giving short shrift to all of it. And then at the end, I didn't feel like I really had meaningful conversation with any of my actual friends at that event. Does that make sense? Yes. This is so fascinating. All right, I'll tell you what I'm using on as I listen. I'm saying, this guy, Neil Patrick Harris, he's really loved. And this partner, husband of him went ahead or somebody together with his friends, and they created this 50 days to meet your lover. And your friends arrive. And honestly, nobody expects you to have an authentic, in-depth conversation at such an opportunity. What people want to know is how happy you are to see them, how much they matter to you, and how honored they feel to be in your inner circle, and how they want to tell you that you matter to them. And for the rest, there's not a single person who wants your one-on-one attention at that moment. It's the importance of the presence. It's the recognition. And so the more you can receive it, and the more they feel like they did a good thing, and they were so happy to be there, to see him taking our friendship, to take in our love, to see him so alive and surrounded. And that is why we were there. And then maybe they have, they can see it. And then maybe they can see it. And then they connect amongst themselves too. But, you know, every time I've gone to a birthday where a person is cheered, loved by a group of people, and everybody says basically how important it is that they are in his life or in that person's life, which is really what these people were telling you. You don't have to do much else. You don't have to perform friendship. You don't, it's an amazing experience. I mean, I almost would like you to go back. There will be another one on day whatever. And just go with that mindset. Savor the fact that these people all cleared their time to just be there for you. And they want to tell you how important you are to them. And they hope that that makes them important to you. Basta. That's it. Yeah. I love that. And I am guilty of seeming like I was performing the act of friendship. No, it's not that you perform the act. It's that you felt you have to give them something. Right. You have to earn it, actually. Yeah. You have to justify that they came. And when in fact, maybe no words and a real hug that just says so good to see you is plenty. I think it's more the I need to give something back. The friendship has to be mutual. They came. Therefore, I have to give something back. And what you give back is the fact that they feel important in your life. That is a big gift. That's interesting. Yeah. The word expectation came into my head when you said that. Like, there was like, I felt that they had expectations of me to behave a certain way or recount a certain thing or. Yeah. It's like when people fly to a wedding for a friend, you know, when they've schlepped from far to show up for someone. Really, the most important thing to do sometimes is to acknowledge every person by name. Why it matters to you that they are there. And really, a friendship is about knowing that you are important to someone and they are to you. That in a very special way. My life would not be the same without you in it. I'm so glad you have 50 days so that you can go and take what I'm telling you and try it out for size and let me know. Well, shit, it's going to culminate in an actual big party that I know about on my actual birthday with a lot of people. So that I'm excited about. But I will put this to use. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. Hate to break it to you, but now that it's August, that means summer is almost over. 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Get free matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso. It's interesting. You put pressure on yourself in some way to legitimize, to validate, to justify. And I think you cut a little bit short. Sure. The pleasure of receiving. Agreed. I fully do. You must have had this experience where you're introduced to someone and you say nice to meet you and they say, oh, we've met before. And that is a feeling of disappointment that I don't like giving someone. So now I tend to say nice to see you. And then they say nice to meet you. And then it's a sign to me that we haven't met before. So I, you know, it's so interesting. I, I actually had a piece of this last night. I met the friend of a friend. And at first when she came up to me, it took a minute when she said, I'm such and such as friend. And then I couldn't remember her name, but she said it to me. But then she said, we had had this conversation before I was going back to France. And I said, yes, we were walking on grand street. And I remember your father was, had just passed away. I was very sick at the time. And, and actually I didn't remember the name, but I remember the conversation. And I just thought there's so many other ways to remember someone or, you know, I don't pretend anymore, but I think people understand it. And there was a professor of mine who used to say, so good to see you again all the time. And he had no idea who he was talking to. Because what is the issue? You feel that you are recognized, right? I matter. You remember me good. But I think everyone gets the situation you're in, but you know what? I want to stay at the birthday because you are going to turn 50 and it's going to be a big event and you're going to be celebrated and held by people who really want to be there for whom you've made a difference and your family and your kids and other people. But there is something about friendship at a 50th. So imagine that we were working on together, to create your little speech. Okay. What would be important to say? I suppose letting everyone know, yeah, how much it means to me that they're there, that they've taken the time to be at that singular event, but also have chosen to remain in our lives and in my life as As a friend, as a family member. That's so tricky because I behave differently around different people sometimes. Right, so say that. So having all these people, like I remember in the past. Yeah, you're all here and sometimes I think some of you probably are here and I'm not sure I really deserve your presence in the same way. I haven't been present or available or responsive to some of you the way that you may have been to me or the way I wished I had been for you. And yet you're here and that means friendship sometimes goes beyond grades. Well, I'm just realizing I'm supposed to make a birthday speech now. Oh, shit. Of course you will. Yeah. But what is that, though? We've had events at our house before where. We were hosting an event, you know, and I don't know how to recover from the feeling that I'm disappointing them in my engagement. If I've never met them before, I feel like they're. I'm trying to read their mind on whether they are authentically pleased to be there or whether it was obligatory for them. I know, but this is what I'm doing. And then when I see an actual friend and I'm so excited that they're at this event as well, then while I'm in the middle of talking to them, someone who I haven't met comes up because they're being bold and want to say hello. I feel like the whole party goes on and I wind up in weird different levels of disappointment. But we're not doing an assessment of hosting. And you are, you're hosting. Your whole attention is to them. Am I being kind? Am I not letting them down? Am I not disappointing? Right. And these people are coming to celebrate you. Yeah. C'est la raison d'être of the event. So what they want, you can say, you know, it's very hard for me to. I mean, you know, it can be funny too. You can do. I'm not asking you to do a eulogy and a solemn thing. That can be a lot of humoring. And it is about how hard it is for you to turn yourself from the host who makes sure that everybody has their drink in hand and everybody has somebody to talk into the person who is. The reason why. The reason why you're all here. And then from that place, you really talk. It's a very vulnerable place, by the way. Yeah. Because it's the place that says, you all love me and I don't always deserve it or I don't always act accordingly. And yet, you know, it means the world to me. I mean, come on. There are people who celebrate their 50th alone. Way too many people. Way too many people do not have the gathering, the surrounding that is going to happen on that day. You know, and that's. That's the piece you want to hone in on. And look, they went out to the 50 days of creative stuff. You know, it tells you how much thinking has gone into you. Hmm. Ball is here. And that means the pumpkin spice latte is back. It's Starbucks. Hey, friends. Olivia from Oli. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Oli comes in. Start your mornings off right with multis made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on Oli.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. One thing I'm looking forward to at 50, I really don't feel aged, but I feel that 50 is like the second part of the, of life, like up until recently, mid-40s, I still felt younger in my skin. And so I didn't feel that I could espouse wisdom or give my, the things I've learned without it feeling disingenuous in some way. I mean, I don't know why, that's just me. But at 50, I've sort of drawn a line in my own sand and I'm ready to start speaking with a bit of authority in things that I know about. Yeah. You know, I was thinking, I was remembering when I turned 60, my friend Priya Parker, who writes about the art of gathering, did a thing with all the guests that were there and basically we were all standing in a huge kind of circle and she just said, people who know Estelle, between zero and 10 years old, make a step into the circle. And then everybody just said their name and where they knew me from, because I had people from all my life, all the various countries I've lived in phases of my life, like you are going to have. And then say one thing about Estelle, you know, zero to 10, and then 10, 20, 30, 40. And, you know, and I had my kids and I had the friends of my kids who know me from some of them since they were born. And it was an amazing way to acknowledge everybody. And for everybody to realize who was there so that you didn't have to go and introduce anybody. Somebody said, I'm, you know, I'm the friend from Paris and, you know, I knew Estelle then, and we did that. Or, you know, the image I have of her was. And then everybody could go by themselves and find each other. I love that. Take it. Yeah, I'm going to. That's a great thing to do. Or build on it. But it was, it was a. And I didn't have to introduce much of anybody to anybody after that. Nice. You know, to create the kind of a career and surround you. Are you the one that people often say you need to write to him three, four times before he finally returns? Yeah, probably. Probably. Yeah. My life is busy enough with different spokes of a word. It's a little bit of a wheel that I'm inevitably not following through on a few things when I'm choosing to follow through on a few other things. And so I have to just choose certain things, but inevitably I, I didn't do the others. And so with that comes a whole lot of unread emails and flagged emails that haven't been responded to and texts that didn't get acknowledged. But I'm working on that. I wish there was a structure. I'm begging for it. Do you have a structure? I keep hoping the universe says, figure it out so that like on Mondays you do this. And on Tuesdays you do that. Hour on that. I don't fucking know. No, I don't function like that. What I do is sometimes, you know, I'm on the bike. I'm on the subway. I mean, I'm in the bathroom and I'm suddenly thinking. I never, you know. And so I basically send myself texts. I don't, I don't know. I don't know what to do. end you will find that you're doing everything else that is so important but not the people that's super true tell me something i know that we have to to begin winding down but i'm just really curious how is this conversation for you it's making me a little sweaty because i'm sort of recognizing the things i need to spend more time focusing on um and i don't know with with those realizations comes sort of uh um nervous excitement i guess beautiful i suppose also a concern that i won't follow through and so my brain is also firing kind of quickly to think how can i not be performing this conversation right now but be like mindful of it when it's done and not say this has been fun and then what's next and and not marginalize it but just compartmentalize it in its own way i do this with my patients you know i when they have an assignment and then they just send me a check nice just to say i did it but don't do don't make a list of 55 people two people's plenty but just two checks okay um and i will never answer but you will just know that you deposited in the accountability bank okay but do you have the thing on your text that say that you that you read it well i know that you read it i will send you a semicolon i love it that's the best communication ever this is so nice thank you so much thank you i need to call some friends that i haven't spoken to in a bit i want to call some friends that i haven't spoken to in a bit oh boy you where should we begin with esther perel is produced by magnificent noise we're part of the vox media podcast network in partnership with new york magazine and the cut our production staff includes eric newsom eva walsh over destry sibley huete katana sabrina farhi eleanor kagan kristin muller and julian original music and additional production by paul schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin are esther perel and jesse baker we'd also like to thank courtney hamilton mary alice miller jen marler and jack saul so fall is here and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at starbucks it's the one we've been waiting for so whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks your favorite fall flavors are back at starbucks the one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long or find a new pumpkin spice latte at starbucks.com find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks