Saving Childhood: Protecting Kids’ Mental Health in a Digital Age

Hello and welcome to the coping toolbox, a Child Psychology podcast hosted by clinical psychologist Dr. Layla Den Osman, Dr. Mary Simmering McDonald, and Dr. Jennifer Vrend. We hope that this podcast helps parents, children, and teens learn new coping skills in dealing with their stress and anxiety and to help strengthen relationships in their lives. Hi everyone, welcome to the coping toolbox. I'm Dr. Mary and I'm happy to be joined today by Joe Andu Set. Joe Ann has kindly contributed her wealth of knowledge to our podcast a few times previously and pretty much feels like an honorary co-host at this point. As many of you know already, Joe Ann is a social worker and family therapist who has been helping her clients for over 25 years. She focuses a lot of her work on providing supports for parents through presentations, free guides on her website, and newsletter articles. And you can see that she has some really wonderful information available at her website, which is dusettherapy.com. And you can find more information through her Instagram handle as well, which is at dusettherapy. So today, Joe Ann and I are going to be talking about what we can do to protect the mental health of kids and teens who are growing up in a digital world. So welcome, Joe Ann. Once again, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me back. It's a pleasure to be here. And I'm really excited to talk about this topic with you because it's a really important one. And you and I before we started recording, we were just chatting about how we're also trying to navigate this challenge in our own family life with our own kids as it's a really, really hard one. Absolutely. And right off the bat, any parents who are listening, I want them to know that we see this as a societal issue. This is not a situation where parents are to blame. But because there are these new social norms that have developed, they're putting parents in a really tough position. And so let's talk about ways that we can look at where the risks are, where they're not. What forms of technology and social media do we need to look out for? And then what is within parents' control to do? And there are a number of things the parents can do to protect their kids. And that's what I'm really looking forward to talking about and just letting parents know we know how hard it is for you. We are also parents' face-y struggles. So we're going to start off on that note saying, hey, we're in this with you. No judgment from these seats. We're trying to navigate this together. And I'm curious to know and wondering if you might be able to share a little bit about your background and what led you to focus on children's mental health and technology. Well throughout my career, my focus always seems to come back to supporting parents. I've always loved working in youth mental health. But my philosophy is in order to support youth, we have to support their parents. Parents are the foundation of family life. They deserve to be included and supported. So I love parent support. And this is just an issue that increasingly over the past 10 years or so I find is coming up in the therapy space in my private practice. And now I'm actually leaning into it and asking more with the youth I work with and with their parents to find out more about the impact that social media or smartphone use may be having on mental health issues that they're struggling with. And so I find I'm hearing a lot more about it because I'm opening up those conversations and I just want us to do more to empower parents. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Certainly we're seeing a lot of it in our clinical work and hearing a lot from our clients about their experiences. And I think when we look back to our own childhoods, we can see that there are obviously some pretty big differences in our experiences and those of kids growing up today. And I'm wondering if you can describe a little bit about your own childhood memories and things that you look back on that made them special for you and maybe thinking about how those experiences might compare to what children go through today. Yes, I had a very typical 80s childhood. So I have so many wonderful memories. My childhood to me, when you ask me that question, what pops to my mind, is my neighborhood throughout my elementary school years where there's just big groups of kids out on our bikes whenever we had free time. A lot of free unstructured play and independence. You know, our parents weren't with us all the time, even when we were quite young. We were out of the park and we loved that freedom. I also think about my summers that were spent throughout my preteen and teen years, renting a cottage with my family. And again, just we were outside constantly. And we spent time with our parents, but we also spent a lot of time with our peers, off on adventures. And yeah, so those are really good memories. And I often ask parents that question when I meet with groups of parents. And I hear similar stories. And they often feel a little bit sad because they're wondering if their kids are getting that same experience. That's a lot of what came to mind for me as well. You know, this feeling or memory of freedom. Also remembering having these experiences of needing to figure out what to do a lot of the times. I don't know if you remember that, but you know, those moments of having to be creative because there wasn't always something there. There weren't adults around necessarily a lot of the time to figure that out for us. But yeah, I remember that. I mean, the experience of being able to do what to do. Me too. I have very clear memories of sometimes stressful things happening. Being sent to the corner store to pick up something for my mom. And I remember, you know, dropping this this bottle of pop and it breaking all over. You know, having to find an adult who could help me, but also figuring that out, right? And then the sense of confidence and self worth that comes with young people navigating situations and how that can positively impact them too. I think there's so much value in those problem-solving experiences, but also being bored sometimes, right? The things that can come from that and where today we have even as adults, we have so much more of the culty tolerating that feeling of boredom is something that, you know, we struggle with a lot more, but how there's so much value in that because it pushes us to problem-solve and figure out what to do. Yes. And it often leads when kids are bored, it can lead to real creativity. Yeah. You know, and it can also lead to sometimes them doing things like actually maybe doing some chores because there's nothing else to do. Yes. There's another big issue I hear a theme that comes up a lot is parents sometimes really struggling with fatigue and resentment and wanting to get their kids more involved in contributing to family life, but feeling almost kind of guilty about it because again, it's not as much of a social norm as it was in previous generations. And so it is really interesting to look at how all of these things tie together, right? So if a child or a teenager can spend hour scrolling on their phone, you can spend so much time and it can pass very quickly and you're kind of entertained, but not necessarily fulfilled. And then we think about how that can lower motivation or the ability to focus, you know, and doing other things. So this is something we're thinking about a lot. Like what are the lost opportunities by spending a lot of time online? And then how is that impacting child development? Yeah. I think you make a really good point because I think, you know, oftentimes when we think about the impact of screen time, there are two areas that we're looking at. One is the direct impact of the technology use or the screen time. And then the other is looking at what are the lost opportunities, like you said, or what are the things that we are missing out on because we're engaging in, you know, this particular activity so much of the time. There is this growing discussion about this connection between technology use and mental health and young people, especially. Can you talk a little bit about what the latest research shows about this relationship? Yes. There has been so much discussion about this over the last year or two. And I think it's creating a lot of interest among parents. A lot of that came about because of a book that was released just a year and a bit ago by Jonathan Height, who's a social psychologist, and it's called the anxious generation. And I think that is created so much interest and hope among parents to better understand these connections. And he lays out this very clear strategy about how we could reverse some of these trends. There were experts before Jonathan Height, like Jean Twenge, who's an American psychologist back in 2018. She released a book called iGen. So people have been raising these issues. But that Jonathan Height has really brought it forward, which is wonderful. So what he says is that between 2010 and 2015, which is right around the time that we had a front facing camera on the iPhone and new version of the iPhone came out that had this front facing camera, so it introduced the selfie trend. And then this is also when certain types of social media, like Instagram really took off, and TikTok came about. And so this was very different from some of the earlier versions of social media prior to 2010, such as Facebook in the early days, or even Twitter in its early days. So he says between 2010 and 2015, we saw this happen. And at the same time, all the stats that him and his colleagues have brought together from countries all around the world, show these very marked increases among young people, so teens and people in their 20s, rates of anxiety, depression, suicide rates going up, self-harming, so hospital presentation with self-harming, really, really concerning trends. And it's affecting young people much more than the older generations. So that's really important for us to notice is how much more it's impacting youth. I find that really interesting, that information that you're highlighting. I certainly notice with my young people that they do tend to gravitate more toward technology that's very fast-moving or very instant, even in terms of communication. So even now, less likely to communicate over regular text, or for our generation, many people use Facebook still, but less common, maybe among the younger group, who's more inclined to use maybe things like Snapchat and TikTok and Instagram. And when we're talking about technology, I guess, as a broader term, are all forms of technology equally problematic, would you say, or are there specific types of technology, or specific platforms that maybe are more closely linked to some of these mental health concerns? That's such an important distinction for us to make, because sometimes when this conversation comes up, the critics will say, look, every generation has lamented change. You know that maybe one generation lamented the advent of television and how it changed life. But when we really look at it, so many other forms of technology did change society, but maybe in ways that were more positive than negative. And especially when it didn't negatively impact mental health in this very market way. So for example, when the internet was introduced in the '90s, I think most of us would agree, we don't want to get rid of the internet. It had so many positives in the workplace and education for linking people, connecting people in positive ways. So what we're really seeing is, what Jonathan Hyde has highlighted is that social media, as we now are seeing Snapchat, Instagram, TikTok, Discord, all these types of platforms that you through using that have these short-form videos that are very quick and rapid. And also these algorithms that really target young people differently than they target their parents' generation, for example, we have to understand that and see how that's key. The smartphones also are a big difference than say the flip phones of the '90s. - Yes, yeah. - Right? People were not addicted to their flip phones. They were very helpful. Texting took a long time on a flip phone. So we did not spend all day testing. And so again, what we're seeing is the more addictive forms of technology. So Jonathan Hyde really talks about smartphone specifically, especially with the front-facing camera. And social media, as being problematic, he does speak out as well about video games and how they're not addictive for everyone. But there is a subset of youth that are really addicted to video games and it's a big problem for them as well. - So certain groups of kids who might be more susceptible to that addiction to video games. - When thinking about why youth are more susceptible, right? So we know first of all that in those childhood and early teen years, there's so much brain development still happening. So just neurologically youth are more vulnerable to those big hits of dopamine and how it impacts their brain and their body. We had the advantage of, for me, anyways, being someone that grew up in the '80s and '90s, I got through all that period of brain development until my mid-20s without any of that. But this is a bit of a new experiment we have done as a society to see what kind of impact does it have on young people. Also one thing I would highlight as well, Mary, that I think I talk about this a lot with parents in my practice is, what if you have an Instagram account? I have an Instagram account, as you mentioned. So what do I get in my feed? I get a lot of mental health-related content from other therapists. I get fun recipes, I really like cooking. (laughing) What would I get if I was to sign up for another account and say I was a 13 year old girl? And adults do this as an experiment. I will quickly get self-harming content in my feed, you know, body image type content that's negative, and this is sadly deliberate because that's the kind of content that can often really hook in young people. And I know it sounds very cynical to say, but it is more money for the tech companies. It keeps young people on social media longer. It also leads them to buying more products that the social media companies are advertising. So we have to kind of think about how different it is for our kids when they are on social media compared to us adults. - Absolutely, yes, both in terms of the stage of their brain development, as well as the type of content that's directed toward them. It's incredibly concerning when we think about this. And there were studies that showed exactly what you're describing that companies actually had, facilitated these algorithms so that, you know, even though it was creating harm, there was this content that was directed toward these certain groups. - There are many executives from these companies now coming out and they're whistle blowing. - whistle blowing, yes. - You know, that worked from meta, that worked at these different companies and now they're speaking out even writing books about it at their own risk because then they're being sued by these companies, but they feel, especially once they became parents, they started really feeling concerned about how youth were not being protected and in fact, are being profited off of by these companies. So this is another example of where I want parents to think about how this is not your fault. You're up against these really powerful tech companies, but again, what can we do with that? And one thing I would just throw out that I was just talking about this week in a session with a parent is, sit down with your 12 year old who you're kind of concerned about and just say to them, hey, whatever social media platform they're on, if it's TikTok say, hey, I want to sit with you and together just scroll or you can give me your phone and I want to scroll your TikTok for five, 10 minutes and see what's coming up. And you know, there are kids who have very harmless algorithms going on. Maybe they're really into anime. - Animal vizier. - Or they love, yeah, they love animals and they're getting all the cute cat and dog videos. That happens or they're really into reading so they're on book talk where they're getting tons, that's great. That can be just fine. But then if you sit down and you go through and I think scroll for a good five minutes and see what comes up and then it gives parents a good indication if there's anything to be concerned about. - I think that's a really nice practical tip to offer. You know, parents and also potentially teens as well, like really starting to push this idea of being a critical consumer of this media, like really understanding what you're up against, that a lot of these images that you're exposed to, for example, there's a purpose in seeing that. There's a profitability that comes with that, that a lot of them are not real. I think that there's, you know, a lot of value and empowerment in passing on that education to our kids and our teens from a really, really early age and actually doing that activity of sitting down with them and going through, I know for my eating disorder clients, I'm hearing a lot more about how they're noticing their mental health being impacted by the content that they're exposed to because they're seeing, just like you're talking about a lot of these ads, and different types of content that promote unhealthy, disordered eating behaviors and exercise. And they're noticing that that's creating emotional risk for them after they consume this type of media. So, yeah, hearing this more and more. Yes, youth being able to say that out loud and feel really supported, whether it's in therapy or if they take that chance to maybe say something to their parents. Here's where I want parents to think about what's your response because if youth feel punished for admitting something is making them, you know, kind of question, is this affecting myself, esteem? We don't want to jump in with huge changes right off the bat as our first response because that's going to then shut down communication. But to your point, it was an excellent one. Have that open, curious conversation. Teen's are so smart. They're wise. If we help highlight what they're already feeling is very valid, you know, to say something like that's an amazing observation. And you are really smart to notice how that's impacting you emotionally. Tell me more about what you think, how you think that's affecting you. Just stay with the feelings for a bit before we jump to solutions, right? Which is hard to do. It's really hard as a parent when we feel that fear bubbling up. I feel that is a therapist because I'll have young teens, you know, 13 say, they're starting a new diet and all my spidey senses get going, right? And so I know how as a parent we're that much more emotionally concerned and invested about our kids well-being. Maintain a stance of openness, curiosity, show positive regard for your child coming to you and acknowledging this. And then I love what you said about how we can also build on, you know, help kids to be savvy about how they take in all media, but especially online. So I'll give one example, Mary. I've now told a few of my teen clients and also parents of teen girls, you know, a fact I heard recently that's so interesting. So if they take a selfie and then they delete it, there are connections between the iPhone and social media, right? You know, it's sort of like and also we know Siri is always listening and it's wild. So social media, if they're on Instagram, for example, they will then be fed an ad for Sephora. Yes. Yeah. So I've told a few of my teens this and they're kind of shocked and I'll say, isn't that quite something that they are trying to target you and make you spend more money because they then make money off the fact that they're taking that cue that you deleted a selfie to think you don't like how you look. And teens then get quite, I don't know, put off by that sometimes for good reason. And so then, you know, it's not that it's the teen's fault because it's not it's not the parents fault for allowing them to be on social media when everybody else is we can put the blame squarely on, you know, the tech companies that are not doing enough to protect our kids that are not creating true age requirements for them to be on social media that are making money off of them instead of protecting them. And so then there's our common kind of enemy, I guess we could say, absolutely. And then there's a conversation that is a strategy that allows parents to collaborate with their teens and talk about what do we do with this given that that is true? How do we keep you safe and how can I support you? That's an incredibly powerful strategy as a parent when you, you know, shift the struggle as being between yourself and your child onto something else. So now all of a sudden, your teammate and you're up against something external. So you're on the same on the same team, you're on the same page working together against something external. And I really love how you highlighted, you know, the important stuff when your kid or your teen comes to you and expresses any of these things. We don't want to create a situation where they feel nervous about talking to you about it because they think that that's going to turn into, oh, wow, you know, all of your media is gone. And that's it. We're cutting it all off. They aren't, you know, as likely to come to you if that's the case, but holding back on that urge to problem solve and just helping them explore that feeling and really praising and acknowledging, you know, how impressive it is that they're recognizing that. So we're aware that there is this link between certain types of technology and mental health. Let's shift over to thinking a little bit more about what we can do just because there are these multiple layers of intervention, right? There's home, there's community, there's policy. So I'm wondering if you would be able to suggest a starting point for anyone who's looking to make change here. Absolutely. And I think of it as almost, you know, there's kind of like two areas we want to look at younger kids who do not yet have smartphones and social media. And there's like a lot we know now about. There's an expression delay as the way. And I love that has ideally the more we can delay the better. And so I'd love for us to explore that a bit. But we also just talked about with teens how we have to also look a little bit at collaborating with them, especially if they already have access, thinking about creating layers of safety. Jonathan Height names four new norms. And some parents listening may have already read his book, but I'll just quickly highlight because I think they're really wonderful. He says ideally we should delay introduction of a smartphone until high school. He's a big fan of getting the old school flip phones back in the dump. And there's like companies here in Canada. There's a company called Pinwheel, I believe that's created a really neat kind of flip phone type alternative. He says social media should be banned until age 16. And interestingly enough over the past year, there are multiple countries that are announcing social media bands that they're putting into place. Australia, France, other countries are following where they will be going after social media. If they do not properly screen people who are signing up for social media, they will be going after those companies and they'll be financial penalty for them. So those are big steps forward even recently. He recommends no smartphones in school. School should be phone free. And also he's talking more and more about educational tech and some of the concerns about the Chromebooks and iPads that are in classrooms. Often for many hours a day, that's like a whole other issue. And then the fourth norm is more independence, more responsibility for young people, more of a return to the play based childhood, which is where our conversation today started. So I love those four norms because they kind of summarize an ideal scenario where as a society, we look at this issue very differently. Now if we break it down for what's accessible for parents now, we can think about how what we're doing in our own homes. It's a lot of responsibility for parents, but there are things you can do to create more safety for your kids and more boundaries around tech. Then we could also talk about on a community level. What can we do? How can you partner with your neighbors and your school community to create more collective action? And then there's, you know, sort of another level which is more government legislation, you know, going back to those new social norms and, you know, creating restrictions. And again, there's things parents can do. Just the other day I wrote an email to the director of my daughter's school board because they're open to parent feedback. And I said, we need to do more, right? There's a ban in Ontario on cell phones and schools, but there needs to be more to really implement it. We can give feedback. We can go to our MPs when my MP knocked on my door during the election. I said, here's an issue that really matters to me. We need more legislation to create better protections. And, you know, he promised we would have a follow-up conversation. So those, that's a lot I know, Mary, but I wonder if we started with within the home. What can we do? That would be a good step. One of the things that I hear often and can totally relate to as a parent. So if we're thinking about these changes within the home, it's this concern about our kids feeling left out or left behind, right? So if we do things like, you know, within those recommendations, if we do things like delay, giving them a phone or we limit social media, there's this concern about what everyone else has won. Or this is the way that my friends communicate. This is the only way my friends communicate. First of all, do you think that this is something that parents should consider or be concerned about? And within the home, do you have suggestions for how we can navigate those kinds of conversations? This is such an important conversation that I have all the time with parents. And I really appreciate when parents come to me in my practice and say, what do you think about this? And they do. So honestly, over, especially in the last year or two, as it's become so clear, all the various risks involved, not just immediate scary risks, but as we are saying more long term in terms of mental health. Well, as parents, so what do you think they're missing out on? Missing out on, you know, creepy people sending the messages on Instagram. Missing out on, or even with peers, right? So say they join, they get a Snapchat account, and then they can join the group chat for their classroom at school. I encourage all parents to insist that they then have a good look at that group chat multiple times. Most parents, when they actually look at the group chat, do not want their kids on it. It draws kids in and is very time consuming. Sometimes there is bullying, and I'm hearing a lot of stories where this is where sometimes the bullying starts and is really. So kids don't want to feel left out, so they want to be on that group chat. Well they actually feel left out in a different way, often. And so there's a lot of social dynamics because it's not face to face in person, it's not always a positive thing. Now there's other examples where I think parents can try it out and be creative. For example, you don't want your 10-year-old to have a phone yet, but maybe her ring-at-team has the kids are all on a group chat where they talk about things to do with their sport. Well maybe you can let them join on your phone, and then you limit the amount of time they're spending on it, and you can also monitor it. Now on that note I would also encourage parents to think about really working with their sports teams or different activities your kids are a part of, to be asking questions about why we're involving social media for young kids. I know I think of my own extracurriculars and even my kids who are now almost 18 and 20, when they were little and they were playing sports or doing activities, there was none of that, and I don't feel they missed out on anything. Like why do we feel we need to be introducing that? You know why isn't it enough that they're going to the activities and seeing their friends in person playing their sport together, and you know if they're going away on a hockey tournament weekend, wouldn't it actually be really nice for the parents if there was a communal decision to keep phones out of it? So the kids are actually playing and interacting together at the hotel and not sitting on their phone. So I would encourage parents to like find some allies, you know, speak up with one other parent on the team who seems to maybe, you know, you kind of connect with and just be curious, what do you think about that idea of maybe a suggesting that we have, you know, some common guidelines around keeping it fun for the kids, keeping it kind of phone free. Yeah. I think that's really helpful because some of these strategies that you're talking about it highlight steps that can be taken both in terms of the home environment but also the community also thinking about policy where we're touching on these different layers or different levels of intervention, which is a nice way of looking at it. And I think too, you know, as you were talking, I was imagining and thinking about my own clinical experience and what I'm hearing from my clients where in some cases the kids and teens actually don't want this. There's also a pressure sometimes that comes with it where I've heard from some of the people that I've seen who are in these competitive sports, for example, where there's actually a lot of pressure and this negative feeling that comes after a great game that they're feeling good about it and then they see the highlights and they weren't featured enough as an example. That's right. Yes, how that feels really bad. So I think also considering that part of things like the experience for them where sometimes there is a little bit of a relief when parents come in and take that decision away from them and, you know, help to support that. I agree 100% that often kids, they may ask for it and really want it. But also when as a parent, we present as very confident and grounded in our decisions and we give some explanation and rationale, but show that confidence. I love you and I have your best interest at heart and I'm saying no to this right now, not because I'm where I can't trust you. I can't trust the algorithm or the way that this technology works. I understand you don't want to feel left out, but I also know for a fact that a lot of kids your age end up feeling left out in a different way once they have access to those apps, to that technology. And so, you know, or even being honest about there's other things that are important to us as a family are time together, right? Really remembering how much we want to hold on to that connection with kids even as they enter those preteen in teen years, right? Your relationship with your child, you know it has unconditional love and support. We know that relationship with peers, they have been flow and so really holding on to that connection and sometimes creating those firm boundaries around smartphones and social media really helps to make actually family life a lot less complicated because what I hear from so many parents is they are exhausted by the constant battles over putting limits on screens. So this is where for any parents of those young kids that don't yet have smartphones, it's so just know the longer you can delay that. The more you will really be feel good about that decision as time goes on and to be honest, so many of these kids appreciate it later. Yeah, that makes so much sense because I think to considering what we are seeking and engaging in these online interactions can be really important for some people as well, right? A lot of times my teens report to me that they're, you know, sort of trigger for going on talk or going on social media, whatever it might be. Oftentimes it's boredom, it's loneliness. You know, it's these other things that they're craving or they're seeking and if we can help create opportunities that mitigate some of those things for them, some more connections in the offline world. For example, having them involved in activities that they're passionate about, helping them to know that boredom is okay, like we were talking about in that there are some benefits to that I think are really great too. Exactly. It's something that's really interesting about the current generation of kids that are in their later teens and 20s. Is they are actively speaking out and talking about how they wish they had not had social media? That's incredible. It is. And it's another significant example of how these changes that we've seen since 2010 to 2015 are very different from previous changes with technology and changes to society. It's very rare that the young generation says they regret a new development or change, right? And we should be really listening carefully to those young people. My daughter, who's almost 18, was horrified when she heard that her beloved younger cousin is requesting a cell phone and she's nine and her mom is a firm no on it. And my daughter right away said, "No, my cousin is so creative and sweet and wonderful. Don't let her get on to a phone and social media." And she's a camp counselor and she'll say, "Mom, my campers can't sit and watch a whole Disney movie. I remember loving a Disney movie when I was like six or seven years old." And I said, "I wonder if it's because they're kind of used to YouTube shorts." And the fast videos and she said, "Mom, we need to save Jan Alpha." Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That's cool. Yeah. And so I'm hearing this from teen clients. I have a 19 year old client who for sure university this year, midway through the year, he said, "I'm done with social media." He had just this revelation that it was impacting his mental health completely went off of it and has still stayed off of it and navigated that with his many friends. He got everybody's cell phone number so he can text them instead of a message over social media. He let them know. And it's really inspiring to see that. And I think it says a lot that young people realize the impact on their generation and long to protect the next generation of kids and also wish that they had not been exposed to that as young as they were. That is so powerful. And it also just makes me go, "Oh, about this young generation, I think it's just very cool that they're lending their voices to this conversation and also coming out and talking about their experiences." This is where I feel like that education piece. It's such an important one. So with my kids, for example, they're younger, but of course we're still navigating that balance in our household with screen time. That's manageable for them. And I talk a lot about the connection to their brains. So it's not about me and them. It's about what their brain is able to manage. And I talk about it in terms of this. dopamine hits and those sorts of things where they understand that, you know, a certain degree of stimulation or a certain amount of dopamine, it actually starts to tip over in a way that does not feel good where all other activities feel so much more boring and nothing compares with the hit that you get from these games. So, you know, we're looking for signs of that. What can we observe or notice in ourselves, in our bodies, in our levels of your ability and all of these things. What can we observe that tells us, okay, maybe that's tipping over and getting to be a little too much. I think that's so great. You have those open conversations with your kids and I can understand why parents struggle with that. So, for sure, parents getting the knowledge themselves. Just, you know, following some of people like Jonathan Hyte, you know, follow him on Instagram. There is good stuff on Instagram, right? It is not all bad. You know, there's some other resources we can share later in that knowledge, you know, then how can we break it down in a kid-friendly way? And another point I would add to that is I think if your child is, for example, on YouTube, I know most kids love YouTube and that might be a form of screen time that some younger elementary school kids have. Well, we need to be watching because there are, you know, ads or clips that come up and, you know, YouTube now has become more like social media. So, if your kids are on it, you have to be talking to them about things they might see. At a younger age than we wish we had to. And one example I would throw out there is pornography. And I have had multiple families on my case load where youth have acknowledged to me or to their parents about really having a problem with having been exposed to porn and then finding it quite addictive. And so we need to let kids know you might see this. And this is what it's about. And then back to our conversation earlier, breaking down any fear about telling parents. Just thinking the same. How incredibly important it is. Yes. Yeah. You know, saying if you, like, whether it's porn or another one that I also highlight in the same way as if anybody messages you and tells you you urgently need to do something. You need to give them information. You need to send them money. That is always something you come and tell me about right away. And I will never be mad at you. You will not be in trouble. I am here to help you. And this is really important because young people are sometimes being targeted. We know sex torsion is something that's been in the news. That's really scary. But even smaller things like, but that are still a big deal to kids where they're they end up sending this person money. Yes. When because they feel so scared because of the way the person is kind of talking to them. And so it's really empowering kids to know if ever someone asks you for your banking information or tells you you need to do something right away. That is a red flag. And you right away come and you tell a parent and we will help you. And you won't be in trouble. And it can be very subtle. I've also had, you know, numerous clients who have dealt with these sort of things being targeted, potentially being scammed. So thankful that they were courageous enough to bring that to a parent or to me. And I don't like old-mindedness. It takes a lot of courage, right? To do that. But it's so important they get support that they know it's not their fault. Absolutely. Because you know, the people doing it are often so sophisticated. And it can be as small or, you know, as something like being asked for robux. And somebody having a really compelling reason for why or it can be as sophisticated as somebody, you know, friending multiple friends in your orbit where all of a sudden you think that you have this real world connection to someone and you don't. And, you know, you find yourself potentially in a compromising position. So yes, keeping those lines of communication open and really again, you know, having that external, you know, sort of that external enemy that you're up against together where we understand the difficulty of this. It is not your fault where, you know, learning some of these things together. And this too, like if parents are listening and thinking, you know, parents have like really young kids. If you're listening to this and thinking, oh my goodness, this sounds so stressful. And how am I going to navigate this? I would also say this is a good reason to think about having a very firm line in your house that you're going to delay. Not just smart phones, but maybe you will choose to just get rid of the iPad for a while. I know families that have done that and noticed really remarkable differences in their child's mood, their ability to focus. Every family is different in terms of what you feel you can take on. But again, you know, it's okay to maybe take a cynical view and a way I always like to think about it is kind of being a little bit of a rebel against the social norms. And then be proud of yourself for doing what you think is best for your family. Yes, I really agree with that. And I think, you know, again, instead of doing it in this punitive way, really helping to make that connection for them. We are doing this for your well-being or for your health. We're noticing this or we're concerned about. But providing that explanation and making that connection for them so it doesn't just feel like something that's punitive. I know we don't have a ton of time left, but I'm wondering if maybe we could just go through like a real-life scenario that I imagine a lot of families go through and see if you can maybe give us some ideas for how we would deal with this kind of situation. So a common scenario might be your 10-year-olds who wants a phone just like we were talking about because everyone else has one. How might a parent respond to this kind of request? Yes. So again, if we look at the research, I know it's so hard for a lot of parents to hear, but really the best thing you can do is delay. If you can just get through the introduction of puberty and adolescence without your child having a smartphone, you're giving them such an advantage. So that's the first thing I would say. So if parents feel that way and they think, okay, I need to delay, then how do you do that? First, validate how your child, why your child would want a smartphone. We can actually validate the feelings they're having without giving them exactly what they're asking for. We don't have to agree with the facts, but we can validate the feeling. So we can say something like, you know, as we've talked about, you know, we as your parents, we are not ready to give you a smartphone. That's something that we hope will still be. And you could maybe give them a timeline or you could keep it open and just say not yet and then let the feelings come. So maybe the kid says something like, well, it's not fair because all my friends have them. Validate that. Say you're right. And you're right that it's really hard to feel left out. It's really tough when all your friends have something and you can't have it. No wonder you feel disappointed. So just stick with the feelings for a bit and show them that you're open to that. Also maintain your boundary knowing that it's what's best in the big picture for your child. So then after validating and talking about the feelings for a bit, you can provide some emotional support. And you can say, you know, I know it's really hard and also I believe you can cope with it and we're in this together. So I'm going to help you and going back to some things you said earlier, Mary, like, you know, what else can we do? Can we make sure to arrange for them to see their friends in person? Can we connect with other families in the neighborhood or the community who also want to see their kids doing, you know, more in a play-based childhood versus screen-based and connect with them, send the kids off to the park together to have their freedom. Give them kids respond really well to being also given more independence and freedom. So I've had families holding off with their 10-11 year olds on smartphones and social media, but despite some of their own parental nervousness, letting their kids go on the bike ride outside the neighborhood to the store nearby and the kids come back so pumped up and happy about this newfound freedom. Well, we need to give more of what kids really benefit from. We can't just say no all the time. We need to think about what can I say yes to? So that would really be my advice to parents, you know, lean into what can I give them that helps them have that childhood that truly I really want for my kids and then put your instead of putting your energy into the constant battles over screen time if they actually get a smartphone and you're always arguing with them about putting it away, just put your energy into creating those other opportunities that are more in line with what you want for your child. Those are wonderful suggestions that's really, really helpful. It's also really helpful to, well, from a really early age, help our kids and teens to focus on how they feel like before and after, they've consumed certain types of media like noticing how you feel. For me, this was really a game changer. I remember during COVID, I found myself doom scrolling a lot and I didn't even realize that I was doing this and I realized when I started tuning into how I felt before and after that. This was actually really not good for me. It wasn't good for my mood and for my well-being. So I stopped using any type of social media because it wasn't really serving me well at that time. But without tuning into those feelings, I wouldn't have done that. So I think that can be a really helpful thing. And just like you had talked about a few times, being very selective about the type of, or the types of media that we consume. For my example, my clients who struggle with disorder eating, being very mindful, maybe following people who are promoting healthy content in terms of more intuitive eating and healthy at every size, all of these other things. The importance of that kind of changing their algorithm, right? And often teens know a bit about that, but leaning into that conversation. I agree. And also I think some teens, you know, well, I've heard them say, "Okay, TikTok is the one that really hooks me." And I know that one can't really affect me. I'm deleting that from my phone. But I've put, you know, a time limit on my Instagram. You know, there's a lot of apps that can help them create limits. But with teens, we have to collaborate if we're going to use those to some extent because they will find ways around a lot of the parental controls. So I agree with you that the better way to go with teens are these open conversations. Sleep is such a priority for teens. And so I really encourage parents of teens to think about prioritizing the night, like that hour before bedtime, trying to protect it. And I know it's a hard time a day for a lot of parents as well to maintain, you know, some new expectations. Like you can agree with your teen that they're going to, "A, keep the phone out of their bedroom." That's a really great boundary to introduce even if you haven't had it. You always are allowed to change your mind on some of the healthy rules of your home. And then to actually get that going, you're going to have to reinforce it, right? So one thing, like as an example that I've experimented with with some of my families is, "Okay, a lot of times teens think what the heck do I do without my phone before bed?" That is how I've soothed myself and wound down before bed. Well, a television show together on the couch is a family or like, you know, your teen daughter and you as a parent, that is very different from scrolling on a phone. That is an embodied experience. You're sitting together. You've got the big screen or bigger screen. You might be having a snack or chatting during it. We know TV did not lead to these mental health issues. So replace that. And so I've known families where they've started watching a show together and it's a treat after everybody gets ready for bed, they watch an episode together. It's kind of a nice transition. That's such a great suggestion and remembering that not all tech are created equally. So having something that's, you know, further away from your brain, having something maybe where you don't have your headphones in where it's not. So instant where you're not interacting with it directly by scrolling through and even things like turning down the level of stimulation, turning down the volume, turning down the brightness, you know, things like that. And what kind of shows you watch? So apparently there's also a trend where a lot of parents of young kids are getting out like the DVDs that they watched growing up. Yes, because kids shows, you know, going back not even all that long ago, 15, 20 years ago, they had a plot. They had a beginning and an end. They were slower. They weren't this high stimulation dopamine inducing kind of experience. So what kind of media you consume also has an impact. So whether it's with young kids or teens, yeah, look for one of those shows you can all enjoy together and that you know will actually promote kind of winding down and connection. Just changing some of the things around the use of tech and not taking away necessarily everything completely. This has been so incredibly helpful. I wish I had a million more hours to chat with you because I could talk about this forever. I'm like, there's so much. Just very quickly before we end, I'm wondering if you might be able to tell us about some resources that you would suggest her its access to support them as they navigate this challenging. Absolutely, I do have a short guide on my website tech healthy families. It's an easy free download. If you go to my website, you set therapy.com. You can also sign up for my newsletter there and I often write about these types of topics in my monthly newsletter. So parents are welcome to sign up for that. I love Jonathan Heights, substack newsletter, which you can also sign up for his website, the anxious generation.com has like a ton of resources on it. And I also love going back to that kind of second part of this issue that we talked about a lot around creating that play based childhood, right? How that's a very important part of this mental health picture. The organization let grow dot org is co founded by Jonathan height and it's an amazing organization for providing resources for parents, teachers, school communities. And I love these about promoting play and independence. And one more I would throw out there would be I love there's an Ontario based doctor who has a great Instagram account called the smartphone effect MD and she posts tons of great info for parents. This has been so helpful chatting with you. I feel like you have provided some really nice practical steps that parents, you know, and teens and kids can take to try to tackle this issue. And maybe for families who are trying to take this on, they might start with just trying to make one small change. Like you had talked about maybe sitting down and doing that scroll with your teens as a starting point and just see what comes out might be a really good place to start. And even just starting to talk to them in that really collaborative open way, just increasing conversations and they may share more with you about how they're really feeling about it or they may even mention changes that they would like to make. Thank you so much, Joanne. This has been great and we'll link all the resources to the episode as well. So it's been wonderful talking to you. Thanks for the invite, Mary. I really enjoyed it too.