"Save Me" (Episode 17)

You know looking back on it, I'm not even certain how it ended up so cohesive. Wow, we really did that. We said we were going to try it, and it actually worked out. It's a really raw song to cap off a really raw record. He goes over to the microphone and he's like, "Hey, I got an idea." I'm just as cool. Wait, what do I like? That was your idea? [Music] By Ty not to fail, not to fall. Why you end up like the others? Eat it, eat it, eat it. Can't you help me as I'm starting to bend? Too many doses and I'm starting to get an attraction. Who is the crowd? Help me through the chaos. [Music] Hello and welcome to Tracks, the official event 7-fold podcast. Taking you on a journey through the band's back catalogue. One song at a time and today it's this epic. [Music] [Music] Save me is the final song on what is without a doubt a ven 7-folds most personal album, Nightmare. And because of that, there's so much to cover on this episode including how the rawest of lyrics help the bands see hope in the darkest period of their lives. And how one of the world's most acclaimed drummers help translate Jimmy the Rev Sullivan's demos into what you hear on the album. But first, who's up for a bit of myth-busting? You know that's what we like to do on this show and if you look online, you'll come across all sorts of info on Save Me including that this crazy mishmash of parts was actually Jimmy's final song before he passed away. But was it? Here's M Shadow's Johnny Christ and Zacky Vengeance to set the record straight. Yeah, this song really fiction was the last song that he kind of gave us and that you know, we used as many lyrics as we could from that and we'll get into that when we get into that song. Almost haunting but Save Me was a bunch of parts just sort of strung together in a way that really had no sort of flow and which which happened sometimes you know sometimes he would come in with stuff that was fully done sometimes it was just parts that were cool ideas. I remember the actual idea of the rhythm. That whole thing was actually created by us jamming on the previous tour. It's hard to say what his last song was you know what I mean like there's there's so many pieces on this record that we wrote 90 95% of with him. As time was going and we were getting ready to go into pre pro and final find to comb everything right I get to get the last little bits of details on everything so. I mean to save save me was the last one with details on is it's just not true there's so many other ones that would be in contention for that title as well but I mean it's one of them sure I mean it was one of the last songs that we put together on the record together for sure because of the you know there was so many different parts that we were. That we were that we were working with and that we all love yeah it's real it's real gray area right it's a bunch of risk from the rev it's the main riffs up from a jam session that we all did together. The chorus is from me and then we ended up using his course as the bridge and then his other chorus as the ending so yeah I mean take that with what you will right it's it's all over the place there was so so many parts. There was parts that I brought into the mix that kind of got put in and pulled out and you know looking back on it I'm not even certain how it ended up so cohesive it's like. Before it was like a lot of great parts that we liked trying to put it together and when it was actually time to focus it was like it just. I put itself together. It's hard whenever you're doing these kind of you know strong along songs that have a lot of parts and they're all they have to fit and. You don't want to get bored and it's like well how many parts do we need to go through in the solo how many interesting parts are rhythmically happening behind it is it too much is it can we cut a little bit so you're always dealing with this sort of. Constantly I mean you're in you're listening down to an 11 minute song and you got to stay focused on is this. Maybe my attention where it is it fall apart what's and then what if it does fall apart where where do you go right when you start cutting things back and so. Yeah and by the way it was a song that didn't have a chorus forever and until the chorus was written it had no like anchor right add add a great riff and add a bunch of craziness and it was cool but there was no. You know pay off. You learn things along the way of what works and what doesn't and sometimes when you find what doesn't work. And doing this dam band is you know each time even if there's there's opportunity and failure in song writing just like anything else but I mean in song writing and creating songs for sure there's opportunity and failure and understanding. Why they don't work right knowing the music theory behind it why it doesn't work so you could kind of break the rules you know and do it in a different way so I guess just learning along the way. And and having the you know the wherewithal and the ability of each band member in this band to not even to influence it but just to make sure that like everything does work it makes sense to everyone in the band you know because if it doesn't make sense to us I guarantee when they're going to make sense to the audience right. So it's when you when you go about a song that you're loving the parts and it's just you're toiling over I mean there was parts in this on save me that were some of the earliest parts for the nightmare album. That came back that we always we always had it you know I mean like it was it was a pro tools project open up at Matt's house in his studio that you know at least once a week from its original conception. And while writing the rest of the record you go back to and go like what else can we there's something here there's something here we got to keep working on we got to keep work on it and that was that was the difference of this song to me was that it was something that. Spand the entire writing process because of that you know I mean it was it was going through it every time there's another part as well doesn't work here maybe we can use it here because we were so fond of the song and the parts that we're putting together it just became this massive song at the end of it and we're never been afraid to go out and do that right so it was just like. It's a challenge yes but we felt confident we could accomplish it and we also felt confident we we'd we'd have the the honesty with each other that if it just wasn't working we can we can always scrap it and try something else but you know none of us wanted to give up on it it was a hard song to put together but none of us wanted to give up on it and that's what I remember the most about it. You know the song it really does encompass like Jimmy's musical spirit because he was all over the place but he loved like metal I mean he loved slayer and all that shit and he was a kid so when he came with these drums and the idea for the day. Like the riff is supposed to be like super dark super evil metal sounding and it just really embodied the entire spirit of that guy I mean he loved that stuff he loved metal he loved goblin metal he loved all that and he brought a lot of those ideas to the table and he was really really involved in in the music at that time period. [Music] It wasn't until we lost him that it truly took on a life of its own because had you not passed, that song would probably come out significantly different, because there's an undertone that, you know, you couldn't just polish on, unless you were handed the circumstances that we were. There's not a moment in that song that I don't feel fits perfectly together. And that's a, that's a hard task because I go back and listen to other songs that, you know, I'm learning some songs right now and songs that haven't really visited in a while. And I was like, what the fuck were we thinking? Like, this good, is this bad? Like, I don't really know. Like, we could have done without this part or maybe, but with that song, I listened to it all the way through and I just cannot wait for the next part to, you know, present itself. And that's such a weird thing for me. So this is towards the end of our cut and pace period. I think we just cut and pace the shit out of this. That was Sinister Gates talking on the breakdown episode for this song, which you can find on the band's YouTube page and it was quite an innocuous comment, wasn't it? The end of the cut and paced period. What does he actually mean by that? Yeah, I wish there was a clear cut answer to that because there really isn't. I mean, when you're dealing with so many different, like I said, there were so many different iterations of this song. So to go, I'd have to go back to all these sessions to really be able to explain it. I mean, there's so many times when you're in the studio with all the guys and we're all demoing it out and we all have ideas, well, this could go there and this could go there. And then sometimes you have the parts and you're like, and someone will be like, all right, give me like five minutes on Pro Tools, I'm going to, I'm going to show you guys what I mean, how this could work. And it's just moving the parts around, right? And then you have like a very rough like slice of like, ooh, and then everyone goes, did that work or didn't? Sometimes you go, yeah, that worked. And though you, you know, you polish up that edit right there and pace that part together and you live with it overnight and you come back, they say, yeah, that didn't work. It's a bit of a gross term to say Frankenstein in it because it sounds like you're forcing stuff and molding it together. It really wasn't that it was, it was more being open-minded and shrine new things all the time with it. And to that point, yeah, when you're in the way we work when we're demoing, we're all demoing to Pro Tools in our different studios and we've gotten familiar with it enough through producing ourselves and stuff that, you know, we know our way around to record a part, bring it in from another song, line it up as best we can and just kind of get an idea. First, if it's even something we should venture in going further, is that the right thing? Or do you come up with all together new part? Or is the flow a little weird before it gets to the bridge, perhaps? I'm not saying that was the case here, but I'm like, is the flow a little weird, you know? And you get up, you got to work your way around everything. I think when we first started as a band, our writing process was very different. It was sitting in a room with guitars, playing pieces that went together and making parts memorable enough that we could take them home practice and not forget them, because if you did, they were gone forever. And, you know, maybe we'd have like a handheld tape recorder because we're that fucking old at this point, but it was writing in a style that the pieces had to go together. At that time, we didn't know what we were doing, so we put as many pieces as we could. We had no idea about song, structure, or any of that stuff. It was just like, come up with a cool part. If it's good enough, throw it in the song. And then, you know, as times change, you start, you know, technologies change, you're able to write with, you know, pro tools, you're able to plug in different parts, maybe take them out, input what you want, what you don't want. And a lot of people get stuck into that mode of writing, recording. Once you write a great song, you kind of have to throw all that away and just follow the song where it takes you. And it's not just cutting back to a chorus or cutting back to a verse, because that's where the song structure takes you. It's literally just taking whatever you're feeling, wherever that journey takes you within a song. And, you know, just throwing caution to the wind and getting rid of it, whatever structure you think a song needs to have, not that the avenge has particularly ever been very structured. But the song like this really flows and we took that method. He's absolutely right. You know, there was no more cutting and pasting. It was, where does the song take us musically, where does the adventure go, lyrically and spiritually and all sorts of, you know, hippie shit? And you hear that in songs like Roman Sky. You hear it in songs like The Stage. You hear it in, you know, everything of life is but a dream. It's writing music. It's creating art. It's taking a blank canvas and, you know, not coloring by numbers. It's taking paint and throwing it at the canvas and then smearing it around however you want. And that's, you know, I think you can hear that from, you know, that point, huh? Zachy mentioned the stage and life is but a dream there. The band's two most recent albums. They're also what most people would consider to be a ven 7folds most progressive or at least challenging releases today. Whether it's the songs based on the big bang, living inside a simulation or the notion of free will, the topics are complex. The music is all over the place, there's plenty going on from an avant-garde point of view and the songs themselves last as long as the band see fit. There's absolutely no compromise on their vision. So tracing it back musically, could it be that Save Me was the first song to show these prog leanings? It's hard to see the forest from the trees when you're stuck in the forest, right? So we're writing. We're doing this like to me, yeah, you know, you could gloss over Hail to the King pretty easily and say it was, it wasn't proggy and the stage was proggy again. It's like, well, part of it is, yeah, you have Hail to the King the Song, which on its face value seems very rudimentary in a way, very forward rock. But no, if you really study it a little bit more, it's proggy too. I mean, that's not a standard guitar lift that Brian's playing throughout the entire fucking song. There's several layers going on that's not a standard, you know, AC/DC rock song. And I'd make arguments for songs all over Hail. I mean, you don't get planets and acid rain unless you've got some steep in prog. And for it to be the first, I mean, I don't know, like, damn, we did MIA and Sidewinder, pretty proggy songs on our second record. I don't know. I want to see, yeah, it's a two-parter, you know, I mean, to say it's the first, I don't know if I agree with that, but I mean, it did, if you want to say it kind of showed maybe where the stage would come from in a sense, sure, I could see, I could see how you can make that leap. But it's just hard when it's hard to say that when you're writing it, when you're in the process of writing it to call it out like that, like that's the beginning of prog when I've been listening to prog and in my mind, ripping prog ideas since, you know, I was fucking 15 years old. It's hard to say like that was the start of it, right? We like the term avant garde a little more. I think the wide album could be considered maybe true prog, but I feel like prog comes with some baggage. Prog comes with its own set of rules, which it shouldn't, I've seen some really smart people in that scene describe prog in the correct way, and what I believe it is. But when you start getting into the, you know, everything's like a divergence from like a dream theater or they've songs have to be long or they have to do this or they have to do that, I'm more comfortable calling stuff avant garde, but I think libat is obviously more avant garde than save me, save me is more traditional European metal or prog metal as we would call it. But you know, I just don't know because I mean, we've always had things like second heart beats long, I won't see a night part one and two or long, I think the strength of the world could be considered prog, but it was more attitude maybe, I don't know. Like, so I don't know, but this is, this save me definitely has more of that dream theater flair to it, where, where pulling from things like synthetic use of strings or some fun keyboard stuff that we hadn't really done before this record, which gives me more of a Aussie feel or a gothic feel, and we've, we've experimented with that stuff a little bit in different ways, but that was save me is one that it definitely, it definitely feels like yeah, gothic, progressive, dream theater-esque, Aussie-esque, you know, so it's got that feel. [Music] Dude, first of all, we've tried to do that many times where I mean, we like, we not like. We love, I mean, we love ourselves some Aussie. We love ourselves. I mean, if you go back to Aussie in the 80s, there's a lot of that, you know, I mean, it was the time for Heavy Metal. We were using a lot of that, but that, but specifically Aussie and that, and that project that you had going all through the 80s and 90s is just, they, you did it great. And it was just, it didn't come off as cheesy, whereas a lot of the other stuff that was coming off with those synths at the time just came off as cheesy, but somehow Aussie was able to make it not cheesy at all, very serious, very purposeful. I think that's the best word for it is that it's very purposeful and looking at it, the way that we approach music is everything has to be purposeful, right? So it's like, yeah, we were influenced by it, but would it have worked if we hadn't made it the way it needed to be, right? Like it's, you got to find the right fit. So I mean, there's, that we've referenced songs before. I mean, I guess probably a bit in our career, just because we're hearing it from other people, you get a little defensive, but the real idea is when we, we listen to songs, when we sit down and conceptualize sometimes, you know, I mean, not all the time, but a lot of times you're sitting there, you're like, we showed each other songs that you've been listening to lately and be like, man, I've always really liked this part, what if we could do something like that? Not rip it off. Something like that. Let's take an influence from it. You know, when used to be a little, I think everyone gets a little gun shy in their earlier in their career to admit things like that and then you get older and you kind of go like, yeah, no, that's, it's literally what we did. And it's homage. It's like, fuck an A, dude, those songs are incredible. Like, why wouldn't we try to do something cool like that, you know, and have it as kind of a notch on the butt? Some of the stuff that we do, like, sometimes you look, we get to look back at it and go like, wow, we really did that. We said we were going to try it and it actually worked out. Like, it's a, it's an accomplishing feeling, you know, and I think there, you know, since on this song, you know, and throughout our careers, definitely something that like, we've, we've worked with and worked on over the years, going back to even city of evil. I mean, a lot of that stuff was, was, was program keyboard orchestrations and, and working with somebody else until, you know, eventually we take the reins ourselves and we have someone proficient in music theory like sinister gates who can take the ideas from our heads and his own and actually make them sound good and, and come to fruition on, on, on some of these synths stuff. You know, Dream Theater was one of those bands that I never really got into until one day Jimmy was playing metropolis part two, scenes from a memory in our, in our tour van while we were driving around. So we all had to listen to it and it just hooked me. I became obsessed and so I would find myself getting my own disc man and getting my CD and I would just listen to it by myself, came obsessed and then started moving backwards, looking at metropolis part one, the song from, you know, images and words. But scenes from a memory really impacted me because it opened my, it, it was a sound I'd never heard. It wasn't like G and R or Metallica, there was something smoother about it. There was interesting, different types of interesting chords. It wasn't based around riffs, it was more, it was progressive, right? It was just a different thing and Mike Portnoy sounded incredible. Love the drumming. I love the tastiness of it. I love the piano playing. I loved all the instrumentation. It was like a band not trying to be heavy just being a band. It was like that perfect middle ground. So that record in particular played a huge role for me because it opened my mind to something else that was out there that I'd never really experienced. Where else can their presence be felt on a vanged outside of save me? You know, I don't know. I think, I think if you look at like Patruchee's style of guitar playing, I think Brian has always respected the hell out of him because he's always, you know, he's playing with the motion, playing the right, like the notes need to make sense first. And I think, so there's always going to be those things that seep in Mike Portnoy, the simple work was always something that influenced Jimmy, but I don't think we were ever like using the songwriting as an influence, but save me is 100% something that I could see during theater during especially the bridge. Well, the ties to Dream Theater on this album do not just stop there. And as you'll most likely be aware, when Jimmy the Rev Sullivan sadly passed away in the December of 2009, the band had an album which was pretty much written and they were readying themselves to go to the studio. The idea of doing that without their best friend is incomprehensible. And this is where Mike Portnoy enters the story. Mike's work in Dream Theater made him one of Jimmy's favourite drummers. So when he kindly said he'd help them finish what they'd started, it made complete sense. And in the case of save me specifically, it's a bit of a full circle moment. A Dream Theater inspired song being played by Dream Theater's drummer. Surely that has to be a walk in the park, right? That's the home field, but it turned out to be much more difficult than expected. Thanks in part to the Rev's unique drumming style. Yeah, we were challenging him a lot because listen, he's coming in and he's got, he's learning the songs, he knows the songs, but we know what Jimmy would do and we know what he wouldn't do and that's a very hard thing to tell somebody, they have to just feel it and you get in the studio with them and you work these things out. But knowing Jimmy for so long, we know where he would have gone with things, especially with where the demos were left. They were pretty close. He would have added a lot of fills. He would have added a lot of things, but there was things that were just too Portnoy and there was things that Jimmy had left that the gap seemed to be filled. So you're trying to explain to Portnoy what kind of fills or what kind of things would be happening or how Jimmy would always, what he did really, really well was he foreshadowed parts really well. So like if you, like for instance, if you have a part in like almost easy or something's in four or four, but it feels like it's not and then it's going into three, he's playing a fill in four or four, but he's doing it in the style of three before it even gets into three, right? It's like it starts getting to this sort of hoppy thing, but it's still in four four and then and all of a sudden you're into this thing and a lot of drummers don't do that. Like Jimmy just always had like, it was always, everything was like molded in a way that was head foresight. And so things like that when you'd hear Mike doing, you know, very sharp transitions and stuff is like, no, no, Jimmy would have foreshadowed this or Jimmy would have come out of this differently. And so that becomes very tedious. Having Mike come in, he was completely proficient in being able to play the parts, but it's not his style. It's different. It's like, you know, I can play the guitar, but if you told me to play Zach Wild Solo's, it's, it's never going to happen. And or I'd have my own flair to it. And Mike came in there with really wanting to be true to what it was supposed to be, which is amazing. Some people would have went in there and been like, no, I play how I play. He's like, no, I want this to follow the vision that existed. And I'm, you know, I'm a vessel here to help. And I mean, I love the drumming on that album. Mike hit it out of the absolute part. And there's moments in the studio that was like, man, I feel like Jimmy would have gone to the double ride and done something like he did and, you know, almost easy or something. And like, we try that. And Mike would be like, all right, you know, he'd try and throw it and like, no, no, no, this is what Jimmy would do. So it probably got a little annoying to him, you know, to be honest, but he was always a good sport. And he nailed everything, but just to come in the way that he did and be able to play the parts and, you know, add some of his own flair, like I said, he's one of the best drummers on the planet. He's absolutely phenomenal. And it just, it came out the way I was supposed to. Well, you know, first of all, the album doesn't happen without Mike Portnoy stepping in and helping us out. We've said that since day one and couldn't, couldn't be more grateful and thankful and shout out to Mike Portnoy, putting yourself in someone else's skin and trying to do it justice is, it's nearly impossible. then add the chops on top of it. You got to get the feel and the chops right, everything like that. So we're asking a lot. I get it. But yeah, there were some jokes that went on there and it's like, I think, you know, kind of trying as as musicians without drums in front of ourselves, trying to communicate to him what we're trying to do. So it's all mouth. It's all like, you know, it's more like up or whatever the case may be. And he's trying to interpret that from a bunch of, you know, guitar players and singers and and bass players and and it's like then and then you have Brian coming. He's like, no, it's on the one or it's on the end. He can explain the music theory behind a little bit better and he understands it a little bit better. But still not easy. He's like, oh, so you want me to to fucking burp on one and fart on three and like whatever we're like, we're like, yep, that's what you're here for, you know. No, it was all fun. It was all a good fun. He to be honest, everything about Mike being there was was great down to a comic relief that we really needed. Honestly, like I and I hope that doesn't come off as a slight to him at all. It's really it's really a term of endearment being in the studio around him at that time when we were all just focused on what had happened. So so quickly before us, having that comic relief around and having someone that wasn't necessarily as tied to it, but willing, you guys say I do. And you know, to his credit, he did that. He did it complaining a couple of times. Don't get me wrong. But it was it was fun complaining. I don't think there was anything serious about it. You know, we went on to do a lot of great things together and he's on doing his thing and still winning every year for drummer of the year and every magazine. And so I think he's fine. The nuance to how he works in symbol patterns and the right symbols, that's something to me that I that I took away from always, you know, enjoying his drumming and dream theater and other projects, but especially seeing it firsthand. The the last chorus. It's the same line, but it's it's jagged it out that I follow I follow my base with his symbol work on it. It's just a really cool part that he did. You're losing my only dream. I can't feel some guiding light, some place to go. If you hear me, let me know. This is really an anomaly because it starts with the bass. There's like two, I think. Half of the entire songs that we're covering here. So opening with the bass, does that change anything for you? No, no, not at all, not at all. It was just the right vibe. It's not like really like it's not like this incredible like no disrespect to the park, but it's not like this incredible baseline. It's a it's a thumping on the on the D string, right? To the to a weird, not even a weird, just like a slightly different timing, right? But it sets you up like wait, I mean, it was happening. And then when everybody kicks in, you have that, I don't know, almost it's kind of got the kind of kind of Dracula ballroom feel on these duels that come in right away to me. And I think it sets the tone, I guess, but I don't think, I don't think it's such a such a quick and in an almost simplistic part that I don't think it like changes anything per se. It just kind of, you have that high hat like ticking you off and you have that base thing. Just like, I don't know, a little bit like are you ready? Or you know, blind with with with corn, you know, it's not the same by any stretch of the term, obviously, but it has that vibe of like, you know, you're you got a high hat counting off and you got one instrument, it doesn't matter. In corn, it's the guitar. And then it's like, and then everything starts to come together. And it's just, and that's just one example. There's many examples of songs that have done this. It's like you pick one or two instruments that kind of just, I don't know, get you listening and feeling different right off the bat to set you up for something, I guess is the only, that would be the only difference. But as a basis approaching the song, it makes no difference to me. The emotions surrounding this album is well trodden ground. You can hear it with every single note on this album and you can clearly see it on the artwork for Nightmare 2. But for most fans, the thing that they resonate with are the lyrics. There's absolutely no question that the word sung by Matt throughout Nightmare cut incredibly deeply. And this song in particular has some of the rawest and most cryptic lyrics on the album. So armed with the words in front of him, Matt explained what the lines in save me actually mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is, these are interesting because it's kind of bringing me back to, you know, so like something like, you know, led by the lunar light, you know, troubles all we'd find lost our way tonight. That was, that was just a throwback to, you know, my greatest times was with Jimmy, riding our little BMX selfies around and creating trouble around the neighborhood. And we would sneak out at night. And we would, you know, we'd say we're waiting, we're meeting each other at one in the morning and we would both sneak out of our respective homes and meet up, you know, over. We're going to go over near Bionic and we'll meet there and it would be a little group of us. And we would just feel free, right? We were at night and we were, we could do whatever we want, not go for trash cans, ding dong, ditch people, throw eggs at people, like cause trouble, just be it idiots, you know, all night. And so like a lyric like that. And then it just starts questioning, like, how can that be taken away, right? Like, how can that, like, what did it all mean? Right? Like, what did that relationship mean? And, you know, it can't be taken away. I mean, he leaves an influence, your friends and your family, leave an influence on you forever, but you can't believe that person's not there to sort of, you know, communicate with anymore. So that, that lyric is really cool. It's hard enough going through what you were going through, but going through what you were going through when all of the eyes of Planet Earth are fixed on you when the news breaks and all the rest of it is, like, is that the, is that the idea behind they all know or I'm up and two and two together and getting five? Yeah, it's interesting because it's a lyric that works, but it's also, I'm pretty sure that was something Jimmy just whispered on their day. Oh, no, it's because it's in the demo too. So it's got to be free losing Jimmy and it was a lyric that was there and it just fit and it took on its own meaning, obviously, you know, after, after the fact. And so we left it. Yeah, these are, uh, no pulse inside of me, stoke lips and heresy, all eyes and two degree losing who I want to be. You'll find her, and he, and then obviously this is purely about Jimmy. He, he may be out as my, some dual fine, the sandies left, soft blind, direct, soft, yeah. Yeah, that's all just about Jimmy, you know, crystal blue disguise and those are his eyes. Say that all beauty must say I say must move on. Yeah, just a, it's a really raw song to, to cap off a really raw record. But some day you will find the sandies let the salt blind and drag the salt behind a moment seen through those eyes. Crystal blue disguise. They say that all beauty must die. I say it just moves on. And I want to ask you about whispering as well because whispering is a technique that you guys utilize quite a lot, but it's so unused in, in rock music. Can I ask you about the role of the whisper in your vocals and where it comes from and why? You know, there's a type of whisper on and all things will end at the end of waking the fallen. And that's more of like, uh, that influence came out. more from like AFI, right? Like there's that type of whisper. But then there's the whisper on like critical claim and save me, which is more of, that's more Jimmy style of like more of like a Marilyn Manson sort of new metal thing that I think he was into at the time. And I think that sort of beautiful people sort of an aggressive whisper, right? And that's something that he brought. I think critical claim, the Shquad, might be somebody else. It was more of like a goddess into that sort of thing. So it kind of opened my world to the, you know, traumatic whisper. - Skull. - I think a really important part that fans probably know, probably the truest diehard fans. But there is that moment in the beginning of the song. - Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. - Skull. - And Jimmy's playing it on the drums and then he goes over to the microphone. He's like, "Hey, got an idea." And just says, "Skull." And we're like, "That was your idea?" (laughing) And we all loved it. We all loved it, don't get me wrong. But it was like, that was the, okay, okay. And, you know, it's, and to say Skull, it was like, and then we'd like, then it became kind of a laughing matter after that 'cause it was like, "Why Skull?" And then it was like, was it Skull like cheers? And I believe it's Norwegian or Swedish? And then we thought it could be that. We're like, "Well, let's just go with that then." Like, it just cheers everybody, you know? Like, let's break it off for you here. (bell dings) - It's so funny because that part was definitely, more of like a joke and kind of supposed to be funny, which makes it bittersweet because the song was so heavy. And we all do the song was super heavy and so metal. And he just kind of went in there with like a, wah, kind of, kind of moment, kind of like a disturbed moment. Just Skull. And it's like, fuck Skull. Like just the most metal thing you can say for no reason. And we left that part 'cause we had to. But like I said, it took on a completely different life 'cause that song's so serious. And such a, and turned out so dark. But there is a little bit, he put a little bit of humor on there. So I think that's something when our fans here, they can always, you know, put a little bit of a smile on their face before we drag them back down. - You know, sometimes, and we all do this, we start seeing around an idea, whether it's a, you know, like a vocal or trying to express a song and get it across. But there'll be certain like words that keep coming back. And I know that in fiction, you know, he just kind of mumbled out, you know, words that were very poignant to what it eventually would happen a couple of days later with his death. But Skull is just one of those things where if he wouldn't have done that, we probably would have overthought it and tried to think of something to say there. Or, 'cause I'm sure that wasn't meant to be, oh, you're gonna say Skull. And then it was like, oh, like that, we gotta leave that, it's, because you know, you get demoitis and you start listening to something long enough and it's like, what are you gonna put in there, you know? Like what other word could you put in there that, and then you've been listening to Skull for six months then you just end up leaving Skull. So it's cool, I don't know if it means anything, right? You can make your own interpretation of what you think it means. (upbeat music) It was just one of those jimmyisms, I guess, you know? Like he's always full of them when we're writing. He just comes up with these ideas and lays them down real quick and some of them, most of them stick. And I was about to say some of them and I realized I'm like, no, actually, as I think a back about it, most of them stick. I mean, we've talked about it with Welcome to Family, the first episode of this podcast. I mean, he came in and just started going with the whispers, hey kids, you know? And it's like, no one else in the band at least at the time were thinking of stuff like that. You know, it's like, and he would come up with these fucking kind of out there ideas that like, especially when you're listening to demos, right? So when we're done recording these records and we've gone through and just toiled over every note, everything said, everything, the audience gets to hear that final product. When you're listening to a demo of this stuff, it's a little bit more funny. That's for sure. Like, listen, you have to have the idea of where it could go, right? And you know, at first you might hear that and think it's goofy, then you're like, oh, yeah, no, but we can work with that. Like, and make that a cool moment. And then the other factor too, that is once we were recording this record, every single piece that we could salvage from demoing with Jimmy, we made sure we left it in there. ♪ Hey, oh, now ♪ ♪ Hey, oh, now ♪ ♪ Did I wake your sleep to questions run to me? ♪ ♪ We only, only, wake up when you sleep ♪ ♪ And now you're waiting for him, trying to stand there ♪ ♪ You're my hunter, hunter, hunter, hunter ♪ ♪ Is this something I said ♪ I was at Joe Tataros House, who does, you know, Bitflips who's doing all the blockchain stuff for us. And he had a old demo from Nightmare that I don't know how he got it, but it was nine songs. And one was the early iteration of Save Me, which has the bridge now, the downer dance in your mind, and someday you will find. That was the chorus. ♪ You, that's in time, right ♪ ♪ All the way in time, right inside of time ♪ ♪ All the way in time, right inside of time ♪ ♪ You're my hunter, hunter, hunter, hunter ♪ ♪ You're my hunter, hunter, hunter ♪ - And then at a different point, the tonight, we all died young was the chorus. So it was a bunch of parts. And then at some point, I came up with the Save Me chorus and we were able to put the song together. ♪ All the way in time, right inside of time ♪ - By the remember, Crooked, I think Jimmy's kind of mumbling along, half me, half him, just kind of going through vocal parts and figuring out what we want to do. And so what's interesting about it is we've uploaded it as one of the rewards on season pass. So people can unlock Save Me. And it's hard to call it a demo because it's like, it is a demo, but it's not the demo because obviously we demoed out a version with the chorus too, but this is a very early demo. Now people that don't participate in season pass, fear not, everything on the internet will be ripped and put online, so I'm sure by now people are listening to it. But we thought it would be a cool thing where people could, you know, own these collectibles that have an early, early version of this song, which I think is interesting because then you have a little insight. I think there's some added parts too that we took out. So it's like a little insight into like our writing process, you know, or make a demo, put it on CD, live with it, cut stuff out, make a new one, add parts, take parts away, until we get to something that we really, really enjoy. So it's kind of cool. ♪ Tonight we all die of tonight ♪ The lyric tonight we all die on is complete and utter truth to how we were feeling. The minute that Jimmy was gone, everything we had leading up to that point and life as we knew it was over. We all died and we were all just turned 28. And everything we've known up until that point in life was gone. ♪ Tonight we all die of tonight ♪ ♪ Tonight we all die of tonight ♪ Listen to that lyric and look at our career from before that point and after, it's two very different sets of humans. I mean, we've always been true to what we are. We've always, you know, we are who we are. But as a band, as human beings, there is the youthful naive, avenged, sevenfold. And at that moment, There we can. a more thoughtful, more, you know, challenging, you know, more, just a more grown-up version of ourselves. Yeah. Like Zach says. I mean, everything that we put on that record was how we were feeling and just being truthful. Again, we didn't know we were going to be abandoned anymore after that record. That could have very well been the last piece of music, last time you ever heard anything from a Venge 7 Fold and that was, that's what we were doing. We're putting it all in the line out being 100% truthful to what we were feeling because that's what we wanted to capture and that's what we felt would have been honorable and good for the memory of the rep. So yeah, I mean, like, that could also be personalized by Matt, too. Tonight we all die young, like, I don't know. I'm sure all of us at one point or another just kind of wished we can, we can go to and be with our brother or whatever that meant, you know. But I do think to put a lighter spin on it, too, is it just fucking fits. Like it's just a good line that fits the end of the fucking album, the end of the song, the end of every day. I mean, that was one of, that whole outro. Once again, I don't remember if it was specifically made for Save Me or if it was just a part that got put in there, but I remember when I heard that outro kind of demoed, how just powerful the simple three chord progression was. It's a simple three chord progression at its core and there's a lot of other stuff that we add to it. I don't get me wrong. But the fact that it just lent itself to such a great melody with, you know, how many words could you put into that melody, right? You know, like, let's think about it. You know, that's, you only got that many words to work with, right? So, I mean, it just got to fit. It's interesting because I remember I talked to, I think I talked to some interviews in Japan and one of the guys, he was an American speaking, you know, English speaking guy, but he was saying that when he heard that line, he thought whatever. And then as it was repeated over and over and over, it really drove home what the record was for him. So, it was the idea that we really hammered that point at the end and it's just a completely different piece of music and, you know, it's like a, I think we talked about it before, but it's a part of the song that if it wasn't living on this record at the end of the record, maybe it doesn't need to be there. But the fact that it's important because of where it, what it represents in the record. I do believe there is some hope that you do hear it within the song and the reason is is because it's almost like a therapy session for all of us, you know, it's spoken through Matt, but he was saying how we all felt. And it was kind of like just laying it all out there. And once you, once you're able to do that, it does give you hope as a person, gives you hope as a band, because the hardest thing to do is lay it all out there, let everybody in the world know how you're feeling. And it really takes a lot off your chest and, you know, huge weight is lifted when you're able to do that. At that moment when we're finishing the album, we didn't know what was going to happen. We just knew we had to get the album out. We could have just shelved it and been done with it. And when you get to that point and you fight all those battles and it's, you go through every day and every single day is rough for every single person, you know, if somebody's having an okay day, somebody else is having the worst day of their life and we just carried each other through the whole process. And when you get to that point and you go and you listen to all the songs, you finally realize you made it, you know, and finished what you set out to do. It's like a, like the hugeest relief that you could ever imagine. It's almost like, I remember driving home from the studio and it was like 4 a.m., we're out somewhere in like West Lake Village or something. You know, about two hours from, from a hank to beach or at that time I lived in Laguna Hills. And I was driving the car by myself listening to it and I sent out a tweet that was like, it's done. Like, it's finished. We, we did it. And like, I just honestly wanted to go to sleep for like a week afterwards, but I felt so completely just relieved. It was the craziest feeling I'd ever felt like we, we did it because it was really hard. I mean, I, I'm not going to lie, being in that studio was, was so difficult. And you're still human. You're still alive. So we still had fun. We can always make each other laugh. That's one great thing about avenged, collectively, personality wise, sense of humor wise. We have some serious, serious laughs and we can always carry each other, but it was a, it was a rough time. You know, there's so many times where you have to go out to the car and the parking lot at the studio just to go cry because it was just hard to hear what was happening. So being done with it, knowing that whatever happened to us, that album from a vengeful collectively was going to exist in the universe. And I was just, you know, it was just a huge emotional experience. Nightmare is a collection of songs taking you on the long and winding road of the grief cycle. And like every road, there does have to be an end. And save me is that end because quite simply it's the final song on the album. However, more importantly than that, the musical journey it takes you on and the feeling you get after taking it all in feels like a definitive full stop. But throughout the writing process, was it always destined for save me to be the album closer? To be honest, I don't fully remember, I feel like it was probably always destined to close the record because it was so long, but it went through so many iterations and changes leading up to its ultimate, you know, final presence that we probably floated the idea at some point and maybe opening the record with it. I mean, I know Nightmare was always the title track and it always destined to be right up there. But off the top of my head, I can't really remember it. It just, it's such a blur to me now and it fits so perfectly where it does. I can't really imagine it ever being anywhere else, but in the spirit of Avengers 7 Fold and knowing how we are, we definitely floated every possibility and overthought every aspect of every song and track listing and you name it, we obsess over everything. It's very hard to stick an 11 minute song anywhere in a record unless it's at the end right? Because the way we listen to music now is, you know, we throw on records or we throw on singles, but if you're going through the track list and all of a sudden you know it's going to be a chore to get through 11 minutes. I don't care how good it is. What happens is whatever is on the other side of that doesn't get very much attention. That's just how it goes sometimes. So you have to make sure your track listing is very important. Sometimes you make points and you know there's going to be difficulty getting through them. For instance, I think sunny disposition number three on the stage is a little bit of a chore. But we wanted that there because it was setting, no pun intended, but it was setting the stage for what we were trying to do throughout the record. There's no doubt that people when they get into the six, seven minute range, they kind of tune out no matter how much you're keeping their attention. So you know very well where the hang-ups are going to be, right? But you have to decide in terms of like creative balance. So for me, nobody could be structured in a way that would be much more palatable to radio. You could have three courses, you could cut the verses in half, you can get to them quicker, you could have the solo in the middle somewhere. But to have that block of music just drowning on and on, it almost takes on a different sort of meaning and then to have the thing just make a left turn into that solo section. You're making every wrong decision in terms of like ability for just the common, not common, but like the casual fan to connect with it. But what it does is it sets the stage for something a little deeper and a little darker and a little bit more unique and you have to make those decisions all the time, right? And you have to decide which route you're going to go. That's not always the right decision, but sometimes, you know, you don't want something like nobody to feel like hell to the king structure. If you do that, it just takes away the magic of that song in my opinion. And so you kind of live and die by these sort of different choices in certain fans' minds, right? There are certain fans that expect a certain thing and they, not even the style, it's just simply how it's provided to them. If you're changing all that up on them, it's very interesting. So something like, like a 11 minute song needed to be at the end of that record. As we bring this episode to a close, it'd be remiss of me to not mention the recent life is but a dream shows that the band have played. And how save me has been brought back into the live set for the first time in 13 years. So I asked Saki what it was like having it back in the mix. And if it was something he enjoyed having to relearn given how complex the song is. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is one of my favorite songs. And when we discuss playing it 13 years ago by, you know, heart sank. I was like, how the fuck are we going to do this? Like, it's one thing to write a song recorded in the studio. It's another thing to stand up there and play it with the backup vocals, the technicalities that are happening. You know, we always bite off way more than we can chew as a band and find a way to do it. Because there's so many vocals and there's so many, you know, tongue twister parts where you're patting your head and rubbing your belly and trying to sing and remember lyrics and then do a lead, you know, a harmony while you're doing it while the song's going berserk. So it's a very challenging song. In the solo, you and Brian, we do all those parts and they're just absolutely ballistic. I mean, he was on fire. So for me, not being a traditional lead guitarist, those parts were difficult. Fortunately, I've had 13 years to get a little bit better, hit playing that stuff. I feel good. I feel like bringing a song like that into the set is going to remind fans, you know, why they like us that we're willing to go up there. We're not just going up there to just play a bunch of hits. We want to bring back those feelings that people felt the first time they heard it and really capture a moment. I mean, 10 minutes in a set that I think people will be hanging on the edge of their seat, you know, and just vibing with the actual music. That's what it's really all about. And I feel like a lot of bands don't do that. They just go up there and play their hits, throw their fucking hands in the air and do whatever they do. And that's great and fine. But to have a true connection, and that's what type of band we are with our fans, you go up there, you play that song and it's going to make people leave that experience with a completely different feeling. I mean, kind of how we ended the life as but a dream first round of shows, people were so confused and mad or angry or, you know, just completely dumbfounded how we walked off the stage. But we left them feeling something. And in that moment, a song like Save Me will absolutely do the same thing. I think that's so important. I mean, you don't go to an art show. And if it's successful, and they're artists are doing something right, you leave feeling something, whether it's confusion, animosity, or completely blinded by brilliance, whatever it is, you feel something. And that's, you know, that's what we're here to do. When people leave the show, we don't, we're not necessarily interested in playing everybody's favorite hits from every record. And so you've got this like, like this total collage of like deals and vibes. And it just goes everywhere. We really want, you know, with cosmic entering the set lists and some other things leaving the set lists, we were trying to really narrow it down to like serious songs that hold weight. And things that we're really proud of to this day still that maybe we haven't explored in a while. And Save Me is one of those ones that as soon as you play it, you're like, Oh my God, this is a, this is a banger. This song is so rad. You never get bored to 11 minutes long. And it's just, it's all these moods and and brooks is on fire and the guitar parts are on fire. And it's got ebbs and flows and ups and downs. So that's why it came back. You know, it fits really nicely with cosmic and it fits really nicely with things like the stage and and Roman sky. And it just feels like feels serious. And that's about it for this episode of tracks. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, subscribe, share and leave a review. All of that good stuff and feel free to go back and listen to previous episodes. If there's any that you've missed, or if you want to go and rejog your memory on your favorite event, seven-fold songs, this is the perfect place to start. Coming up next time on tracks is G-O-D from Life is but a dream. There'll be lots to get into from Frank Sinatra to Darth Punk and how that all gets pieced together. Let's find out next time. Thank you again. I'm Bees. This has been Tracks and we'll see you next time.