Sat 2 Aug 2014 – Is There a Scottish Establishment?

Hello and welcome to the second podcast from the second show of All Back To Bos. This show was on the theme of the Scottish Establishment, our Bowie title was "Tactful Cactus". I think it's a really good show. We were a bit more in control at the beginning to learn how to do timing in the year and everything. It was a great audience, quite busy, and I really enjoyed the discussion. I think there was a super highlight as well from a Chrissy Barnacle, just turns in fantastic performance on this. I'm so proud of the events, it's a great part of both real highlights, so I think all in all it'll be a good listen. Thank you very much, I hope you enjoy. Hello and welcome to All Back To Bowies. Welcome to the Bowie Year, I'm David Greg. This is Laura Eaton Lewis, your host today. So the Bowie Year, as you can see we're on top of David Bowie's rooftop apartment in Manhattan. If you all just close your eyes for a moment, can you hear Manhattan outside? It's an unusually rainy summer's day in Manhattan. I think if you just listen, David's rehearsing, he's rehearsing his new album out there, I could just hear him singing. Usually he'll stop because usually about this time he starts to make a cup of horlicks. We're hoping he'll come in and be part of our ramshackle salon that we're holding on his roof. But before that, if he does come in at the end, obviously, do make him welcome. Before that, we were thinking about referendums and then being binary. And so we thought we should ask you the very, very important question and find out whether you are yes or no. And that question is, do you agree that David Bowie should be pronounced Bowie? Oh, that's interesting. Okay, so we have to count this Sarah. Sarah has the tally from yesterday. So this is a very heavily Bowie audio type. I'm quite astonished by this. So Laura, you're up. I absolutely think it's a Bowie. Okay, so can you count the Bowies for us? This is, this is me. 29. Okay, well, be bold. Do not be silent. No. Tell us, tell us. Those of you who think it's a Bowie. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7. There was originally a Davo Max option, which was, which was that he would be David Jones. But we took that off the table. So that's no longer available. Okay, we do have one more task to you before we begin the full on hardcore entertainment that is all back to Bowie's. Laura, would you like to explain? Hello, everybody. What we'd like you to do now is just while we're about to listen to our first guest giving us some beautiful, beautiful music. Well, while that's going on, we're hoping this is going to channel some inspiration for you here. So what we'd like you to do with that is we'd like you to answer a question. And the question statement, more of a statement, finish it sentence. And the sentence is the Scottish establishment is dot, dot, dot. If you've got pen and paper, anything you've got, just scribble it on the back of a fly or something. Or if you need paper, just scribble it on the back of a fly or a pen and paper if you've got, if you need people, we can probably hand paper about. But just finish the sentence, the Scottish establishment is. And later in the show, if you pass them all along, whilst Chris is playing, while the song's playing, have a think about it. And at the end, we'll gather them all up in the Bowie Trilby. And we'll read some of them out. We had some lovely answers yesterday to Scotland is, Scotland is like dot, dot, dot. And they'll all get written down and put in the, in the Bowie guest book, which in the very end is going to go to the National Library of Scotland rather, rather, you know, pompously. But it's, it's good. It's a, it's a document. Okay. Okay. And so is everybody, is everybody alright with that? We're going, okay, I think if Chris he's ready. So ladies and gentlemen, while you're having a think about that, and as the gentle rain patters on the year roof, and there's a leak, I can see already that's great. I hope nobody's getting dropped on. Okay. Could I introduce our first guest, the absolutely fabulous singer, Chrissy Barnacle. It was hidden in plain sight, for those of you who want to buy a Stanley, I was looking for my lead. I'm a little bit convinced that David Berry or Bowie doesn't know that we're here on this roof terrace. So that's a bit awkward. But the song is kind of about secrets also. It's written about my, my sort, my first secret, suburban, semi-successful, absentee relationship, in which I was also aware of, which is indefinitely not a metaphor for anything. The song is called Night Rape. Thanks so much for having me, everyone. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] Wow, that was absolutely amazing, everyone put your hands together again. Thank you, Chrissy Barty-Town! [applause] Beautiful, just beautiful. Oh, do you know what else is beautiful? One of the spiders from Mars is in the kitchen, making cheese on toast right now, but do you know what? David's going to be raging because he's burnt it. And there's a bit of a mess all over the oven. So if anybody's feeling, you know, they want to do that thing where you go round and clean up in the middle of the party, please feel free. Go through, because, you know, he might come back, he might come back and we're hoping that he does by the end. Now, we're going to introduce the next section of the show. We're going to have a polemic from wonderful Peter Arnet. I'd like you all to welcome to the stage Peter. Peter is a playwright and he has a show with the same play productions at the moment. Janice Joplin, oh my gosh, I've forgotten full tilt, full tilt with amazing Angi Darsi in it. I hear it's an absolute force of nature. So do we go and see that? And everyone, please welcome Peter. As a Scottish establishment, I thought I'd have a communication from their patrons saint, so I thought I'd just bring something. It's a letter from Sir Walter Scott. Dear Scott, what the hell do you think you're playing at? Does the word "flodden" mean nothing to you? I tell you this. I did not go to the considerable trouble and expense of inventing this country just so you people could piss it up the wall. We made a deal, didn't we? We were allowed to stay Scottish, and we got to stick our noses in the trough. Wasn't that pretty good for us? Are you seriously saying that now there's not a British Empire anymore? That you just can't be bothered. Where is your honour, Scotland? Did you read my books? Didn't you get subliminal message? Every 10 or 20 years, they come up here and knock seven bells out of us. It's all very fine, you're remembering Bannock Bunn. We didn't send them hemward, very bloody often, did we? But what happened to Wales? Is that what you want us to be? Pockets of Chippy and Comprehensible Buggers setting fire to haul the cottages in Berkshire? We got to stay Scottish, all right? Scottish is very carefully defined by heritage and shortbread. Not a rival bloody sovereignty on the same bloody island, the price of remaining Scottish was that Scottishness be harmless. Don't you get that anymore? Scottishness is fine as long as it doesn't piss anybody off. In 1820 at the end of the war against Napoleon with the country bankrupt, the empire held together by a thread, this bunch of silly bastards like you decided to set Scotland free, right? Scotland free or a desert? So they marched on his majesty's armory at Cavan, a bit like a bunch of students from Glasgow, Caledonia University, nipping up to Farsland and nicked that fucking missiles. But of course, they got wiped out. But down in Whitehall, they started to wonder about the Scottish problem. Somebody had to do something and it was me. I saved this country. That's why I'm on the bite notes. That's why my statues on the pillars, all the tartan, all the nostalgia, all the gift shops. What do you think that just comes from? Do you think that all that just happened? Listen, the people who matter in this country, we don't want this independence of yours. All right? What would we want with independence? We're already independent. We've got the law to protect our property from the mob and the cuck to protect our gods from the pope. What else do we need? Everything else goes our way. We have the best of both worlds. We're independent from London because London doesn't give a damn unless we're being annoying. And we're independent of Scotland because the mob here doesn't get to vote on anything important. Why would we want to mess with that? We've got our identity haven't we? She's so democracy, the last thing we need. And if the London government does some stuff we don't like, something unpopular once in a while, we can always say it's got nothing to do with us. See, it's total control and total deniability at the same time. Why would we mess with that? Take it from me. I invented this country and I know what's best for it. I was the one who persuaded George the Force to come up here. I was the one who dressed everyone in tartan. It was me who made this into a loyal picturesque country for German George to look at. It was me that made an emotional identity out of yearning for a past that was safely dead and buried. All those whiskey labels, the clan tartans, all that tradition was invented inside the union. Scottish identity dates from when I put Penta Paper inside the union. So whisper it. Without the union there is no Scotland. This is not a country. This is a costume. This is a golf bag we carry for the tourists. So we can learn fine. We can lament fine. But we don't cause trouble, right? Just remind yourselves that every single time we've got above ourselves we got gupped. So watch yourselves and give them a ball bag. Thank you Sir Walter. So we're going to have a discussion now. So I'd like to welcome our very wonderful panel onto the stage. Please come up and we'll introduce you. We have if you sit there and we'll unfortunately have to share a microphone so fantastic. So the panel today to discuss the question we've we've got every show has to have a bowie lyric as it's title and tactful cactus. The Scottish establishment seemed appropriate. To discuss that we have Cameron Wiley. Cameron is the deput head of George Harriet's and if anybody knows the Edinburgh establishment I would say it's Cameron because to my mind he is a pillar of it and has educated it for 20 years or more. Next to him is Andrew Tekel who many of us will know as Lallon's peat warrior. The blogger but he's also a writer on constitutional law and next to him we have Mandy Rhodes who's the editor of Holyrood magazine which is the sort of I was going to say the in-house magazine of the parliament but it basically is it's not no but nevertheless nevertheless it does cover in covering the parliament Scottish politics I think it's definitely she somebody who knows the Scottish establishment I to I so perhaps if we begin with just to stop. Okay so first off and is there a Scottish establishment and if so what is it or who is it I think the idea of a Scottish establishment is probably as everything else that we approach so I think it changes and I think there's as Peter said you we've had an independent legal system health system church education system there are some people that think they are the establishment and quite happy with their position I think what the referendum has done is sure that a political establishment still think that sovereignty of power lies at Western and Whitehall and I think there's been a lot of questions for everybody about that so Nancy do I think this has been established and I think there are various establishments I worry that you thought I might be one. Oh dear yes I mean there are several establishments if you look around an Edinburgh I was always struck by how many sort of faces you can see walking the street too could be equally in the national portrait gallery today the Edinburgh is a city which I find disturbing remnants of the establishment tottering around in pinstripes suits but actually folk like yourself David and artistic establishments too we have to talk about that I think actually if we're thinking about class thinking about and that's the issue we're not talking about establishment neatly drifts over class but actually in Scotland our middle classes are expert but being invisible that's their main function talent working power discreetly quietly behind the scene Z into the middle ages that's for me how well what you what you train up these young soldiers to be essentially and maybe that has some good aspects that has confident aspects about which is you know which which builds powerful little creatures that can take over India and rule us from Whitehall and maybe you find that exciting but I think I think I think actually in Scotland the establishment likes avoiding the implications of its own experience And that cascades from the law through to literature because the Scottish middle classes love reading literature from which they themselves are excluded. I think in Scotland, we have to think about those issues too. Well, if the establishment being something which has been around for a long time, which believes it has a kind of right to power, then clearly the Edinburgh professional middle classes would justify being described as an establishment. But as might be said, there are lots and lots of different establishments in Scotland. And I mean, another institution which indisputably believes itself to have been in power and having a right to that power is the Labour Party. So there's a sort of significant range of different kinds of establishment in Scotland. And it's quite interesting that you kindly said that you've been allowed to meet a pillar of the establishment because of my fact that you kindly said also that I've been doing it for 20 years. But in fact, I have been educating children privately in the city for 35 years, two different establishments, one of which you yourself, of course, graced. And did I see that? I think it's quite interesting for me the number of people blogging on the very, very radical side of Scotland's independence, who might also have been privately educated in Edinburgh. But that's a, we know them all. I don't mean that as a kind of outing thing. I just mean it's an interesting point. No, but it's just interesting that obviously Edinburgh is unique in the sense that the proportion of private educated children in Edinburgh might be the highest proportion of private educated children in any city in the world, I think. And it's about 25% of the population. Where else does that exist? And there's no doubt that that group within the east of Scotland has an enormous degree of power and that might be interesting to explore at some point. That is. You want to come back in? I was just going to say that I think one of the problems for Scotland, or I actually don't think it's a problem, but I think the establishment almost relies on an assumed difference. And I don't think we're a very good at difference, which I think is a good thing. And my mother actually reminded me yesterday, I was talking to her about this, and she said, when she took me to the doctor when I was nine, my father was the pharmacist. And when all the doctors said, do you must remember to call him 'doctor'? And I looked at that, but I'm not calling him 'doctor'. Why would I do that? I just found it more polite just to call him 'nothing'. And when I gave evidence to the House of Lords this year, I found a hat to do the scene. I'm just not very good at difference, and I just think Scotland's a part of it. I think it's quite, I just want to push a little bit. There seems to me to be attention in the independence referendum debate between people who are looking to independence as a way of kind of, if you like, bringing in a new establishment, sort of overthrowing power systems, if you like. And then there's another sort of side, which is the possibility that, or some people are afraid of independence, because they, in the sense they're thinking, well, aren't we just handing power to the already existing establishment? So is it worth exploring that tension? Sorry, it's just because I've just written about this, I guess. But what would worry me would be, as Cameron said, believe a party you have had to be a function of power for a long, long time in Scotland, and that's been tested by the SNP. But you also see them just replicating a lot of the same institutions and establishments. And when I interviewed Sam and Glass, and we talked about it in the event of a yes vote, he has already tapped the people on the shoulder that would join him in the big tent to go to London to negotiate on behalf of us. For me, that feels very, very wrong when I think the campaign has been, it has outgrown the two campaigns, and I think politicians have been quite peripheral to the debate we've all been having. And that grassroots movement, I hope, would not control someone going off and negotiating on behalf of you. Yes, you. Honestly, I actually quite distressed I haven't been tapped by Sam and at all. I was having high hopes that I might be able to represent Scotland and that environment. I should also say just to give this, I went to private schools, well, but in Glasgow, I know. But the funny thing about private schools in Glasgow is I grew up in our guy on the west coast, so I turned up a bunk in. And when the little blazer tight said to me, are you English? Is that English accent you've got? And they had no sense of themselves as being kind of for the rest of the class region population, something quite apart. I think that's a different sort of class region kind of delusion that you find around that. And we have to think about peripheries and centres here. I think you're right talking about the Labour Party. If we cast our minds back to pre-devilution, some people had serious anxieties, rural folk, about being governed by an over-promoted Glasgow City consular, which, of course, we were ever from a number of years, he says, in a partisan nationalist fashion. But I think, you know, we have to think about those sort of aspects about who, well, what's the phrase? Was it Jim Sillers? It's almost all these approachable phrases are always Jim Sillers. But we have to think about taking sides in Scotland, as well as taking Scotland's side. It's got a nice kind of neatness to it. And I think, yeah, I mean, some people, Andrew Wilson, for example, who's an advisor to salmon. I don't think he's here, but he once said that he wants the SNP to be the new. I think he is. Oh, no, no, he's an independent sort of, he used to be an MSP. And he said that he wanted the SNP to be the new establishment. He says, I hope to make the new radical establishment. Now, quite what work that word radical does, I'm not entirely sure. But I think really, yeah, there are these many different establishments we talk about, actually, in Glasgow, these kind of working classes establishments, if you like. I think things like the faculty of advocates perform a very useful ideological function because you can see class happens in Edinburgh over there. So those kind of people, you know, marble, marble people live up in Murray Place. And in Glasgow, we don't have class. We just have people up in the West End enjoying art and all those kinds of things. And they're just, you know, horny-handed sons of tiles. So I think in Scotland, we have an interesting attitude towards class. And I think we can't divorce that from these wider conversations about, well, where are these establishments? I think it's interesting. I'd be interested to know what a radical establishment could conceivably be. I mean, it's sort of, it's kind of, really, it's sort of contradiction, isn't it? But I'm also interested in the idea that you were talking about that some people believe there will be a new establishment. They will hand over power to new establishments. And I just can't envisage what that new establishment would be either. Really, it would be some kind of concatenation of the old establishment, I think, coming together. The distinction would be that in an independent Scotland, it would be the Scottish establishment, who is at least making the decisions all the time, rather than the British establishment, and very frequently a British establishment, which Scots have not voted at all. So at least that power would be in the hands of the Scottish establishment. But inevitably, whoever eventually comes to power becomes the establishment. So that if we accept that the Labour Party has become the establishment to some extent in Scotland, then that would have seen the complete impossibility in the history of the Labour Party at various different points. And now quite, quite clearly it's involved. I don't think the SNP's really been in power long enough for it to be an establishment. But I certainly very much agree with Mandy that if the SNP's making mistakes, then it's making mistakes by being like the Labour Party in terms of becoming that kind of establishment. Absolutely. It's just to come back to what Mandy was thinking earlier about the grassroots campaign. It's been my observation that what's happened throughout this campaign is that that is really quite unique. That the strength of that grassroots campaign, and that the number of different groups that have been campaigning and growing this new kind of way of governing themselves, actually, it's really quite extraordinary because it is powerful and it's working, and there are many of them, and they are working together, yet retaining these distinct identities. You would think, Cameron, what might a new establishment look like? I would like to ask each of you, if that establishment was to go beyond our middle and upper classes and embrace more of our working classes and these grassroots movements, what shape might that take? I wanted to come back to you just on something that said grassroots, because I'll just share something that was interesting to me in the last couple of weeks, but Jim Sillers is a columnist in the friend of mine, but he has conducted, I think, 40 or 50. Yes, meetings in the Scenes of Glasgow Scotland, where we're talking the battle needs to be fought since Malibu died, because that's a lot of meetings in a short space of time, and he said, "Absolutely, this is the most negative mind I know about." Absolutely, yes, it's going to win 55%. Day after I had lunch with someone who I wouldn't name, it was a very, it was the advisor to Mendelssohn, and he comes up every now and again, and just wants to pick my brains a bit about what's happening, and he said, "Absolutely, 55% no." We all know it's going to be close, but I then spoke to him about that grassroots campaign. I said, Jim Sillers, he's been around for a very long time, he thinks he's very old, and he said he's never seen anything like it, but the problem will be harnessing it afterwards, whether it's a yes or a no, and sadly, the advisor, former advisor to Mendelssohn said to me, "I have seen it all before, and I'll just disappear." I think, for the first time, I think an establishment, a political establishment, that we've lost respect for, It's something I get it. i'r gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n yn gweithio'r gweithio yna gweithio hynny, yn gweithio yna gweithio yna gweithio hynny. Mae'r gweithio hynny, Mae'r gweithio hynny, Mae'r gweithio hynny, Mae'r gweithio hynny, Mae'r gweithio hynny. Mae'r gweith i'r ysgweithio'r yng Nghymru. Mae'r gweithio a'r gweithio a'r gweithio a'r gweithio a'r gweithio a'r gweithio a'r gweithio a'r g Mae'r gweith i'r gweith i'r gweith i'r gweith i'r gweith i'r gweith i'r gweith i'r yng Nghymru. i'w gwybod i'w gwybod i'w gwybod i'w gwybod i'w gwybod i'w gwybod i'w yw'r audynrych pan yw'n gweld, mae'n gweld hynny'n gweld yw'n gweld i'n gweld'n gweld i'n gweld i'n gweld i'n gweld i'n gweld i'n gweld i But that has consequences. It recalls a Sir Walter Scottphrase, I was like it. It was a mechanism which was just how'd in it. It's not her name from Heart of Midlothian that said it was great when you had politicians in Edinburgh because you could eat people on them. You could patch on them with stones to ensure that they were good bearers. And in a sense, if you're going to have an actively involved politics, then the politicians have to be prepared for the peoples. And I'm not entirely sure they are yet, to be honest. Just to carry on not answering your question. It's interesting that you talked about the range of grassroots movements that have been involved in the campaign, but of course what you really mean is the range of grassroots movements that have been involved in the S campaign. Because the singular thing about the new campaign has been that doesn't appear to be any grassroots movement involved in it whatsoever. And yet somewhat perversely they are still winning. And the new campaign has been pretty disastrous really in all sorts of ways. And yet, and there hasn't been any kind of sort of popular populist feeling about it. And yet still somehow this great mass, this great war, just still sort of winning. The other thing I was going to say was that it's just at the point of view that it's sort of energising that it's taken place with young people. You know, the idea that 16 and 17-year-olds could vote. Not absolutely sure that probably some don't think that they have 16 and 17-year-olds could vote. They'd all just go, "Yes, Scotland should be free." And kind of all vote that way. In fact, of course, the polls show exactly the opposite is happening. And that the 16 and 17-year-olds are in fact the group most likely to vote no out of the entire population. They're just misfired in that respect. But by job, it's really involved them in the process. And absolutely genuinely, I know that my particular educational environment is not typical. But we had a debate at Harriers between Senrbingers Campbell and Kenny McCaskill. And I've been inviting politicians to come and speak in schools for years, very kindly. They kind of tore it up and they kind of go through the motions. And they smile a bit. And they say, "And the answer questions." And then they go, "And usually there's something adviser who taps them on the shoulders." And then they release time to go now. There was none of that. And this, in instance, they sat and talked to these 500 prospective voters like their lives. Absolutely. They depended on it. And at one point, I thought Kenny McCaskill was actually going to cry. He was so moved by what was going on. And there was a real battle. It was absolutely astonishing. They were soaked and sweat at the end of it. And that was because, for 16 and 17-year-olds, it's probably a good vote to roll and just be potential voters in the future. And that's a very unique thing. What was the result? Well, actually, because it just didn't seem totally appropriate for them to raise their hands and say, "I'm voting yes and no in front of their teachers." By acclimation, the result was no. But interestingly, what the question I did ask was, how many of you have changed your minds as a result of this? And everybody who had changed their mind had to change their minds to yes. And it was quite interesting to think, not an awful lot of people, but maybe 10% of the audience have changed as well. If you caught me looking, it's just to keep the time going. So we've got about five minutes. I think it'd be interesting to open it out a little bit to the audience. If you have any comments or questions or thoughts, and if you raise your hands, I'll come to you. What I'll have to do is repeat the question into the microphone, partly because people might not hear it, but also partly because we're also podcasting this. So people will be listening as they jog along beside the water of leaf. So the first comment is from Andy Whiteman, though. One of our observations was that we've seen the working of Westminster and Edinburgh's Scottish Parliament was built to deny people access. So when you go in and you see what you're going to commit to, you have to get out of your badge and you're trying to sit down and someone takes you. I tried to go on my own and have to tell the best security person that I would be arrested if I could check it out by a foreigner. In Westminster, you just go through the external security and you can go, unfortunately, wait for all the public places and you commit to your life, you're in the night, you go to chambers, nobody bothers you. But we've built this environment within the Scottish Parliament, it requires permission to get through that door into the place where you can actually get all the politicians. Andy's point, if I can brief summarise, I'm sorry we don't have a roving mic, although it's wonderful that the BBC are here, perhaps they can lend us some resources the next time. And this point, which is interesting to me, is that the Holyrood Parliament, in a sense, is built to sort of keep you out and he's comparing that to Westminster Parliament where, to some extent, you're able to come in once you pass external security, you can sort of wander about. Whereas in the Scottish Parliament, you need security passes and you need invites. Which is a really fascinating point and I suppose it's interesting because I slightly experience it another way, which is since the Scottish Parliament has been in existence, I found myself going to it quite a bit, usually with sort of delegations of artists on various things. But also my kids have been and so I've experienced it in a slightly different way, but I think it's interesting that you point out the sheer practicalities. Do we have any other comments? Can I just come back to Anna because I was sitting thinking the gas funny said that. But he's right, you do, once you get through security, you do get signed in for things, but you can also wander around. But I would also argue that the institution itself feels more open and less daunting than the House of Commons anyway. But I would probably also urge people to go to the Festival of Politics in a couple of weeks because that's something that Westerners don't never edit us and that is about what we do. And I, you know, I would probably push you to the point you've raised with Trisha Marwick myself. They're coming to the back. You know, I think we said we're not going to really make up our minds and we're about to dig for it. So I'm going to say just let's move. I said to her, I said can you thought about it? If you want to treat him, I'd be up. Is he got one hand on my head? I said I'm not necessarily going to vote the same way as my parents. Don't listen to those three at night. That's a lot of points. So Bob's mind there being that a lot of the teenager vote, at least Bob's grandos was saying that she's not going to make her mind up. It's the summer holidays and she'll make her mind up a week before. And then it won't necessarily be the way her parents. One one thing about that is that the schools have had ranges of advice about what they're allowed to say. And this has been a real problem. Both local councils and the Office of the Scottish Charities Regulator for the private sector have said that the schools have to be extremely committed. yng Nghymru yn yng Nghymru yn gallu'r ddiweddol yn yng Nghymru yn yng Nghymru yn yng Nghymru yn Yng Nghymru yn Yng Nghymru yn Yng Nghymru yn Yng Nghymru yn Yng Nghymru i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith. Andrew? I, actually, I recently went back to my beloved album Nature to talk to them about the European Court of Human Rights and all things. I was talking to one of their modern studies teachers about their independence referendum teaching. And they held a debate between Atorian, PMSP sorry and I think an SNP, MSP. And the Secretary of Book Down, a hundred-noll sexiests. And I think there's an interesting point here about inheritances when we're thinking about the establishment we have to think about inheritances. And credit to your young lady, that's a very glad and thing. But actually, many young people, to some extent, do reflect the prejudices of their parents. And I find that particularly talking to young bourgeois students of mine and things like that. But actually, this idea that, oh God, independence, why would you possibly do that? Absolutely unthinkable, uncritical. And I find that so sad because the purpose of education is to be critical. And this poor modern studies teacher was fighting to even get these kids to take independence seriously, to be critical about it and not to listen to that voice which just says, "Oh, good grief, why would we possibly want to leave the union?" So Walter Scott lives. Okay, so we do, that's great. We're just going to have to wind up this section though. And just before we do, I just want to ask each of you to give me one word, one word answer. What would you like to see becoming part of the establishment or replacing the establishment? One word from each of you. Me. I would vote for that. That's profound. See, I'm just long-winded as you're going to detect it today. I think me as well. More people like me, that would be splendid. Maybe we could cut it. Like the Romans that they had called consoles, didn't they, so we could do that. Actually, I think probably most people who vote, yes, would want less people like me in the establishment. Not me, I suppose. I'm liking the idea that the famous Newsweek cover, the Newsweek person of the year, and they put us with mirror on the cover. And that was to reflect the Web 2.0. I wonder if that is maybe the point, is that we're looking to try to create an establishment, which is a kind of mirror, both of an actual mirror of Scotland, but also a feeling that you could, that you, whoever you are, and not just, you know, relatively privileged people of the type up on this stage, but you could look back and say, well, that is me. That is me up there in some way. We'd like to now move on to our next section, so Laura will introduce. Hello, everybody, now we're going to have a wonderful Wordsmith come up, and share with you something. And so I'd like you all to welcome to the stage, Bram Giben. Fantastic poet, journalist, and here's a show with some small YouTube. Oh, my God, it's too early for me. It took me booklips. Hands together for Bram Giben, please. And also, if we could say thank you to our panel as well. (Applause) Well, it's very nice to be in Edinburgh, which is the home of banking in Scotland. And you don't get much more establishment than the banking system. This poem's called Burn. The banks and ATMs are all closed down. The shops are lonely barter for gold teeth and family heirlooms. Except, of course, the banks are never closed. No, they trade around the clock in silent algorithms faster than human consciousness can calculate. And that's why I'm burning all my money. I'm taking it out of the bank every penny or pound. I can beg borrow or steal because otherwise it isn't real. And I want to get the most liberating effect possible from burning all my money. I'm burning all my money because the devaluation of paper currency is inevitable anyway. And when they call in all my debts, what are they going to do? Send me more red letters, more pointless pieces of paper, or put me in a jail cell for the crime of burning all my money. Meanwhile, the food bank queues are long and full of mothers. The welfare state is being sold off to property developers and pharmaceutical companies. Everything you pay tax on is being sold at a loss to corporations, which display the traits of psychopaths. And I won't stand for that, so I'm burning all my money. I'm burning all my money rather than see it bail out another bank that was too big to fail or lying the pockets of another banker who should rightfully rot in jail. And it's not like anyone's going to care about my lack of wealth, my empty belly, or my mental health, no, things will remain exactly the same after I burn all my money. I'm burning all my money in stacks and piles. I don't need an art gallery to fill more frame this act. It is devoid of meaning. It is a statement about the futility of protest. It makes about as much sense as burning all your money. I'm burning all my money as one in the eye for every two car family, every celebrity who ever appeared on MTV clips with a white stock co-star case in a grand piano, two porches in a Ferrari in the drive, shills for a civilization with no regard for the weak, which champions mediocrity. I want no part of that. I'm burning all my money. I'm burning it to staunch my guilt for every slave who, toiled and built this edifice in which my family bore and raised and trapped me. A hollow church of shopping malls with blood and hair upon the walls, with flame enough at burn at all, just like I'll burn my money. I'm burning it as penance for the waste of me, the wool, it's product placed for all the cancer I've embraced, and every drug shoved up my face, those sleepless nights and days in haste long up in smoke, just like my money. And until it burns, I will never be free to die. I light the flame and close my eyes. This great parade of days will cease if you can't afford them. So burn your money. Yeah, burn your money because it makes sense. Burn it because it makes no sense. Burn it like a Vietnam, a Buddhist monk protesting the Vietnam War. Burn it like an oilfield in a rat captured by allied forces. Burn it like a wakeerman, burn it like a blunt, burn it like a torture victim face held over hot goals. Burn it because you will only spend it on things that will destroy you. Burn it because the things you own end up owning you. Burn it because you need more light. Burn it because you don't own it anyway. Burn it because it is amiss. Burn it, burn it, burn it. Burn it because it is an admission that everything in this system is just corrupt and degraded, but it can still do one thing for us. It can burn. So I'm burning all my money and I'm starting today. In fact, I already feel much better now the decision is made. I'm tearing up my mortgage and throwing it away, kissing the wife and kids goodbye and walking into the sea naked, clutching nothing but a lighter and a fiver. You won't see me for dust. That's great. Thank you very much. I'm just reflecting, when we all closed our eyes earlier on, you didn't know that Alex Salmon actually came in and a couple of you got tapped on the shoulder. So if you feel that tap, you know what it is. I didn't give it up anyway. We're all waiting. So did you all manage to write a wee sentence? The Scottish establishment is. That's fantastic. Could you pass them along to the end of the rows? And sorry if you would come and we wanted to have a David Bowie Trilby but we don't have one yet because the charity shops of Edinburgh have not. Oh look, we've got a Trilby at the back, fantastic. It's Jen Brillian. So we've got a borrowed David Bowie Trilby and we'll put the Scottish establishment is sentences in. And then we'll see some of what we've got. While we're doing that. Does anybody else have any reflections or thoughts or comments on the discussion that they'd like to bring in? This might be a moment. There's a lady over here. That's essentially so that the lady who was saying to counteract the impression that the young are all voting no. Her son in an Edinburgh State School says that everyone in his class is voting yes. It's very interesting. I think the point about How young people are going is quite interesting because, demographically, a camera in his right that the initial polling certainly had them all as no, but it does appear to be the case when there are school debates, there's quite a big shift, and which is partly why they're not being debates has been such a problem, so here we have, so Laura, would you join me and we'll just see what we've got? So we don't know, these are just, the Scottish establishment is, and we'll just do a few of them, say if you could keep me to time so that we've got time for Chrissy in the end, and let's see what we've got. Whatever you want it to be. The Scottish establishment is whatever you want it to be. A blend of self-made layers and children of empire builders. The Scottish establishment is resident in London. Scottish establishment is always going to be powerful but unhappy, yes or no? The Scottish establishment is a primary source of sensorial pessimism. The Scottish establishment is a need of to to to to to change it. The Scottish establishment is wealthy. It suffers with false nostalgia. Now, I thought that was a blank sheet of paper and I was thinking that was a really clever response, but it is actually just written in very, very faint handwriting, so I will come back to that one. The Scottish establishment is to be established. The Scottish establishment is corrupt. The Scottish establishment is about to change. The Scottish establishment is a need of refurbishment. You can't have to take one of those because I am not able to read that. The Scottish establishment is a lesser and more manageable size of two evils. The Scottish establishment is currently located in Westminster. The Scottish establishment is probably more pompous than the English lot. I take a blow on behalf of them for that. Pomposity not being insured supply from artists also. The Scottish establishment is ready for a change towards a more humane system. The Scottish establishment is embargoed by itself. I think we've got one last one in. The Scottish establishment is too comfy. I thought there was one last one. The Scottish establishment is too powerful. Well, I think they were great. This is really interesting. Yesterday, we didn't have time for the audience to read out for us to read the audience out. Scotland is like, was the question yesterday, and we got them in the Bowie guest book. We'll put all of these in the Bowie guest book, so they all got written down. But they really were amazing. We had everything from Scotland is like a macaroon mar, which was a very elaborate metaphor about being rough on the outside, but very sweet on the inside. Also, we had Scotland is like any other country, which I thought was rather splendid. It's been a wonderful all back to Bowie, so I hope you've enjoyed your time in the year. It doesn't look like he's coming. I did hear him clattering about later. He said he was making some knocky, and he gets very, very caught up in his Italian cookery. And once he's into that, he just can't get him out of the kitchen, so he's in the zone. So it doesn't look like he's going to turn up today. I might turn up tomorrow. Tomorrow the discussion is, "Wambam, thank you, ma'am." The indie ref and gender politics. We have an absolutely fabulous panel for you. Please do come along. Please also check out the website for all the other Bowie debates that we've got, and if they capture interest, please come along. I noticed we talked about Jim Sillers earlier on. We've got Jim Sillers on the 8th. We've got Nicholas Sturgeon. He's going to speak to us on Monday. And we've got a whole panoply of wonderful guests. So thank you very much for coming. Please check out the podcast. Please tell your friends. And last of all, can I give a big rousing welcome to Chrissie Barnacle, who closed the show for us. Come on, Chrissie. And last of all, just a big, big thank you to Laura and to our panel and to Peter for the provocation. So thanks to everyone who's been involved today. And to Graham Giban as well. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me back. This has been a really lovely time. Thanks for having me. I was really stirring and interested in kind of listening to people talk about things. I don't really know much about. I thought Brown's poem was excellent. It kind of made me very emotional. So I thought to play you, I'd play my most angsty and emotional song. So if you need to have a little beat at the end, the music gets very loud. So no one will hear you. The song I wrote is called "Hasermats". And I wrote it after I was dumped. And it didn't go out for a very long time. So I went into like, "Can you start washing and seeing daylight again?" So took me to a place called "Bull Foods", which is a shop where everything costs like three pounds more. That does anywhere else in the room. I hadn't eaten anything. And I was just like, "Oh, I just need to eat something." So I bought some hazelnuts. And the only word to have for what happened to me that day was after a DZAC. There's nothing scientific we can. I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen with hazelnuts. But everyone in the car with me looked so much better than we usually did. When we heard Jesus' more fertile than they ever have, the night sky was opulent. It was beautiful. And I felt alive and connected with the first time in a while. I wanted to record how it felt in a song. I was trying to commit to art. Amazing feeling. But eventually, I worked really early in the morning. So I passed out about four in the morning when I woke up. Everything seemed to be back to normal. I really got this again. So this is the song I wrote after I woke up. I'm going to play all the time. So come see me and be like, "I want to know you like I know the moon." "I won't be there when I wake up in the morning." "And I need to know that there's one change of thing." "But that you could still care much less about me." "And I don't know how I'm ended up with this heart." "I don't know how I'm ended up with this heart." "I must be alone." "All this romantic love." "Because I will never fall in love." "And I've tried always enough." "Try girls and no one could help." "It's hard of mine." "And though I'll show you." "I'm still young, I can feel this." "I couldn't fall in life." "I'm tired." "You come on, you talk to me." "I want to draw with this heart." "You study the world now." "I want to draw with this heart." "I want to draw with this heart." "I want to draw with this heart." ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, ♪ Oh, I want to hear you ♪ ♪ Oh, I want to hear you ♪ ♪ I want to hear you ♪ ♪ I want to hear you ♪ Thanks. (audience applauds) - That was absolutely wonderful, thanks. Thank you so much everyone for coming. I'm sure the conversation will carry on in the bar and the cafe afterwards. Please feel free to hang around and let's keep talking. And hopefully see some of you tomorrow. Thanks very much. (audience applauds) (upbeat music) - Well, I hope you enjoyed that show. Just to put the plugs in for the different artists. Once again, Chrissy Barnacle, isn't she fantastic? Her EP is called "Hasel Nuts" and you can get it on SoundCloud. You can also get it from Chrissy if you see her gigging and she gigs around Edinburgh. And it's really, really worth checking it. Brown Geabons does poetry performances also on around Edinburgh and places like Raleigh and Broad and so on. So he's worth following if you can. A Peter on it's show that he's done with Corbisit, called Janice Joplin, "Full Tilt" is on at the assembly checkpoint. It's really, really amazing. Mandy Rhodes, her Hollywood magazine's fantastic and the website is really interesting. If you're a Scottish politics nerd, you really can't do better than that. And they've got a website also an indie ref and a festival site. So you've got to check them out. And there also, she's also on Twitter as Hollywood Mandy. Andrew Tikal, "Lalans Peak Warrior" is just a fantastic blogger. And he is followable on Twitter and if you just Google "Lalans Peak Warrior" "Lalans" as in LA, double LA and DS, the synthetic scots of human dermat. I don't know what "Pete Warrior" is, but he certainly does it very well. And I suppose we could plug Cameron, if you want to send your children to George Harriet's to be part of the establishment, then contact Cameron Wiley, I'm sure you might. I don't think that's all the plugs we've got today. Thank you very much for listening. Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]