Sarah McLachlan

This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking whether you set an alarm before having an afternoon power nap, only to wake up two hours later, drowsy, confused, so many missed calls. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. Very excited about our guest today. It is the one, the only, Sarah McLaughlin. I mean, so many hits. Such an incredible singer. Started Lilith Fair. Created a music school. I mean, she's just awesome and talented and nice and funny. And Sarah and I are going to talk about a lot of things. We're going to talk about growing up in Canada and whether those lakes ever get warm. The answer is no. We're going to talk about. We're going to talk about Lilith Fair. What it took to start it and make it and keep it going. We're going to talk about her new music. Making music with her daughters and being a woman in the world today. So many good things. Also, I should let you know, at one point, I have a coughing fit. And it is really embarrassing. And Sarah is so cool about it. Because, of course, she is. She's the coolest. So thank you, Sarah. Before we get started, we always like to ask people that know our guests to give us a question and talk well behind their back. And we have a great one today. Also, just an incredible. Musical artist in her own right. Would love to get her in here to talk about stuff. The one, the only, the multi-Grammy award-winning Cheryl Crow, everybody. Cheryl? This episode of Good Hang is presented by Uber Eats. Big news. Aldi is now on Uber Eats. And you get 20% off your first grocery order with code NEWALDI26. So whether your fridge is empty and you're too tired to shop, or you just ran out of essential ingredients in the middle of meal prep, don't worry. Fill your fridge in just a few taps and get 20% off your first Aldi order on Uber Eats. For orders over $60, you can save up to $20. Ends February 28th, 2026. Terms apply. See app for details. Maybe. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm talking to you. I can't tell you. I, in fact, it's funny. Are we on? Yeah, we're on. Well, I'll just tell you. I texted Adam Scott. I was driving home from visiting my parents in Missouri, a three and a half hour drive. And my mom's not making memories anymore. So it's always a hard drive back. And I listened to you and Adam on the way back. And I laughed, like for literally off and on the whole way. It was the greatest gift ever. So great. Oh, thanks. Did you say you. You texted Adam? I did. I texted him right, like right after that. Wait, are you guys friends? I didn't know that. Well, actually, it's funny. We were married in a past life. No, I met him. I met him on the Kansas City, the Big Slick. Oh yeah, that fundraiser they do every year. It's the funnest thing ever. And I'm from Missouri. So I kind of like edged my way in there. And I met him through that. And oh my God, he and Paul Rudd. And I mean, it's just. It's all your people, but it's so much fun. Oh, Cheryl, that means a lot. I love you. Where are we talking to you from? I'm in Nashville. I'm in the, technically the sunroom, but it's pouring here. I mean, it's literally Nashville is like the rainforest now. Well, I always associate you with Austin, but you're out of Austin into Nashville. Yeah, I moved actually kind of. I moved from Austin to Nashville. I got. I was engaged, got diagnosed with breast. Breast cancer, split up, moved to Nashville, basically all in. And had LASIK surgery, most importantly. All in the process of like three weeks. You know what? This just leads me to my. I mean, it's not even a question. This is an observation. Just women are amazing. I mean, I just, I can't. It's just like everyone should be saying this every day. The things you just listed would take any man down. You just pick it up and keep on moving. Well, I've been, you know, we're going to. We're talking to Sarah McLachlan today. And I had the pleasure of watching the Lilith Fair doc. And two things. One, that whole experience to me feels like just a great version of what we're talking about, which is creativity for creativity's sake. Like watching artists kind of try to find the fun part. Yes. But it also. Reminded me of how cool you are, Sheryl Crow. Like every single time you come on stage, I'm like, God, look at Sheryl's outfit. Look at her hair. Anyway. No, go on. I have time. No, I'm kidding. That is so nice. I will tell you, that tour was not like anything I've experienced. And the whole thing came about at such a strange. You know, Lollapalooza was happening. And every time, like I can remember calling my agent and saying, can I get some women on a bill? Like, I'd love to tour with Amy Mann. And every time it would be like, yeah, people won't buy tickets to see two women on a bill. Particularly men. Men won't. And around that time, Sarah had this crazy idea. And she wound up calling me. And I was just, God, it's just a perfect time for it. All that to say is that what we took out on the stage was, it was defiance, but it was also like community. It was a little bit. It was a little bit of a gentle fuck you to the norms. The fact that, yeah, there were quite a few, you know, there were quite a few gay women in the audience, but there were as many families and as many heterosexual couples and as many men. I mean, it was totally everything. So it defied what all the agents and the promoters were saying. Like, you're just going to wind up with an audience full of women. And they're not the ones that buy tickets. And she really defied that in her beautiful, um, genteel, um, gypsy way. And she brought everybody along with it. It was, it felt like we were taking a party out on the stage and hopefully people did feel like they were included. Yeah. I had a brilliant conversation with Brandy Carlisle about it and her being in the audience as a young, you know, as a young girl and wanting to do what we were up there doing. Um, and there's, there's such beautiful power in that. It really was not like anything else that I've ever been a part of. Yeah. I always ask my, um, my guests a question from someone that knows them well. And, um, is there a question you have, uh, for Sarah that you think I should ask her? I mean, one of the things I always think is interesting. Well, two things. What would she be doing if she wasn't doing music? Because it's so much a part of her. I mean, she has her own school and, um, but I think about that. I was a school teacher. So I'm always like, well, if it doesn't work, I still go, I still say this. If it doesn't work out, I'll go back to teaching school. If it doesn't work out. If it doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'll ask Sarah about that. That's a great question. Anything else? Um, yeah, this is something that I just find interesting with people who wind up making it. Ask Sarah if she just always knew she was going to make it. Like, did she just know she was going to be doing what she's doing? Because I don't think I ever knew I was going to be doing this until, um, I was like maybe eight years in. Oh, great question. Cheryl Crow, I love you. Thank you so much for doing. I love you too. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. For me, going the extra mile means taking the long way home. If you're going to grab snacks and the 10 minute trip turns into a two hour journey, suddenly you're on a new street. Then your ice cream is melted in the back and, you know, we've solved the meaning of life. But luckily in my Subaru hybrid, that's right. I have one and I love it. That extra mile is built right in with longer range and better fuel efficiency. Than ever before. The Subaru Forester hybrid and the Subaru Crosstrek hybrid. Great cars. I have them both. Love goes the extra mile. Visit Subaru.com slash hybrid to learn more. Sarah McLaughlin is here. I just had a major coughing fit before we started. It's good to get it out beforehand. It made me think about what do you do when you're singing and you have to cough? Yeah, that's tricky. What do you do? Well, you cough and you just, you know, it's one of those, the show has to go on, but you're like, I'm just going to need a moment and pack and take, you know, and take a drink and go, you know, can't blame that one on menopause. That's a whole lot. I can, but not that one. Have you ever thrown up on stage? No, almost. I have, I have a fear of that. Almost. Oh shit. Yeah. I, um, I was doing, um, the tree lighting at Rockefeller. We were doing a Christmas show and, oh yeah. And I had, I was freshly pregnant. Oh yeah. And was just heinously ill, like just green 24 seven. And I remember being, you know, it's very public and you're doing this, you know, that you're, you're soundchecking, everybody's watching. And I'm just looking in the corner. Okay. There's a poinsettia over there. I'm just like, where's a quiet corner that I can go hurl in front of everybody. Oh, the glamor. There's so many things to talk about today. I'm thrilled that you're here. Like when we talk about the guests that we want to have on the show, um, and your name came up, we thought, we were like, that would be a dream well thank you and so let's start by going back because you grew up in canada yeah and we we started this um interview with me apologizing and saying sorry sorry sorry which does sound very canadian i love a canadian they're the best they're so nice are they as friendly as people think they are generally speaking yeah yeah yeah why do you think that is um i don't know we just we kind of are i mean you know there's assholes everywhere but um generally i think we're we're polite for one thing that's for sure by nature that's sort of like you know there's a certain thing you uphold of just being civil and yeah polite to everybody i know there's a there's a um an attitude a canadian attitude that's really lovely to be around which is basically and i think i mean i think a lot of it has to do with the weather which is basically like you can either choose to complain or you can get on with it yeah it's true there's certainly a solid amount of you know suck it up buttercup yeah and you just don't get anywhere by complaining no also you know irish parents is like don't go thinking you're anything special oh big time that's very that's very boston too like very yeah like like you can't like just don't don't um don't kind of fall in love with yourself you know and we're here to drag you back down we're gonna humble you every step of the way if you do so you grew up in canada and you when did you realize you know you had this gift you knew that music was going to be part of your life forever do you remember the feeling when you were young that you knew i think i'm good at this or i think i really want to do this what was it um grade seven variety show and i have to preface this with saying i was really bullied i was terribly unpopular and this was my opportunity for redemption i'm gonna you know i'm gonna prove myself to my community and i got up there and i sang uh the gambler by kenny rogers on acoustic guitar is it you gotta know when you gotta know when to hold them know when to fall yeah i mean oh come on to walk away know when to run it makes sense that a seventh grade girl would you know relate to that no i just loved kenny rogers anyway same so i i got up there to sing this song and i got about halfway through it and the mic stopped working oh god and so my my moment you know my my triumphant moment was uh you know dashed because everybody said oh that wasn't really you singing that the tape player must have turned off they refused to acknowledge that it was me singing but i knew i felt good about it and um i felt even better about it that they refused to believe it was actually me and they thought it was a recorded version of something that obviously sounded a little more professional so um yeah okay so you're in canada you're a young person who's realizing i have something special who are you going to sing for me i'm going to sing for you i'm going to sing for you listening to at the time uh when i was really young other than kenny rogers it was um simon agarfunkel kat stevens yes uh joan baez joni mitchell yeah and then you're learning how to play how uh when i was four i wanted to be joan baez so my mom got me ukulele and i started taking lessons i lived in a little subdivision so up the street there was a little old lady who taught ukulele and so i walked up there every week and took lessons and then when we moved into the city when i was seven i started with the royal conservatory of music which was kind of classical music was at the time kind of the only legitimate thing way to learn an instrument so i took classical guitar for um 12 years took classical piano for six years i took voice for four years um and you know it was a fantastic foundation to learn how to play the instrument but it was never really my jam okay so then you're listening to all these incredible singer-songwriters and you decide you want to be a singer-songwriter and you get a record deal at 19 yeah how did that happen so the very first band that i was in when i was 17 the october game we played a gig um at the dell house university sub ballroom and we opened up for a band called mauve and they were on a small independent label in vancouver and the guitar player singer of the band heard me sing and was like we want you to come out to vancouver and join our band and i'm like cool cool i'm 17 that sounds great so i ran home to my mom and dad who you know promptly said are you effing crazy you're gonna finish high school and um so i was still listening to them at that time yeah smartly so i i squeaked by high school and then started going to the art college there and um i was working at a place called club flamingo and terry mcbride the president of the label came with their band skinny puppy which was this industrial do you remember skinny puppy yeah blood and guts and mud and gore yeah um anyway very different than your music a little bit different yeah a little bit different so um he came and i remember so clearly i was playing quicksilver my favorite pinball game yeah and i was working on my high score and he's like hey i want to i want to talk to you i'm like yeah yeah give me a minute so i waited till i finished and he took me out to his plush blue velvet tour bus and uh sat me down at the kitchen table and put a contract for me said we want to offer you a five record deal whoa and i was like yeah yeah sure what do you like what do you really want how does anybody know i'm here yeah there's too much stuff to do i'm like i'm gonna go to the plush in here yeah yeah um but no he was serious and um originally they wanted me to come out to vancouver and work with a bunch of other network bands then when i got out there they're like all these other network bands hadn't been asked and like we're not going to work with this punk kid she's got no track record she hasn't written anything no never mind but i was already there so at that point they were like well let's just see what you come up with and so i just kind of started writing wow to the best of my ability i mean obviously i had as i said a great foundation of understanding music and theory i had done deep dives into my favorite artists which at the time were peter gabriel and kate bush don't give up oh yeah just don't give up sorry no it's good it's good i hear you i feel you um so i just you know i i just kind of fake it till you make it i just made my first record in about a year and um started touring and toured and toured and toured and then you know just kind there that's the thing that i think sometimes we kind of like you know we're kind of tough on ourselves when we look back and and look at our naivete about things and think like oh we didn't know what we were doing but there's such a freedom when you're young about kind of not knowing what's around the corner sometimes it's better to not ignorance is bliss yes sometimes that's true if you knew how important your decisions were that if you did went left rather than right it would change your whole life you'd never take a step you'd work and you'd be living in fear constant fear and uncertainty so you're right just that that sort of you know dumb and green yeah and totally just like the world is kind of your oyster and and all these possibilities feel endless do you remember your first time you ever heard anything that you'd ever written on the radio yeah where were you i was in a taxi cab with my first publicist tony on our way to toronto to do our very first promotional tour for the record and vox came on the radio and the two of us looked each other just started screaming and the you did not know what was going to be on taxi driver was like what the hell's going on and said that's me that's me on the radio and he's like sure and go no no no and we we got out we pulled out the you know the albums that we were bringing with us to sign for the record or for the radio station and he's like oh can i have a picture with you that's yeah suddenly he wants a picture yeah but it was like it just felt like like validation oh yeah oh my god how is it that this is already happening it all felt so surreal up until that moment and i mean honestly there were still many many surreal moments after that well you've had so many hits like throughout your career i mean we were i was listening to your music all morning and your new record which is great and um it it's so hard to like you're i imagine i i imagine that songs you know just like any piece of art they just kind of have a life of their own they take all these journeys they they bloom they come back they mean something different the next time around some of them you think oh the these are going to be the ones that are going to really go and they don't or others that you think like this is the one that's like the one that everyone's always singing back to me that you have so many hits and so many songs what like do they does that does does do songs feel that way to you your songs that they have their own life and journey that like absolutely your control absolutely i mean music is art is so subjective right it's like you see something you hear something you read something and it resonates with you or it doesn't and it you then impart you you put your own story into it and then that's that's where you draw inspiration from that's where that's how it affects you and so i mean the coolest thing is when people come up to me and say oh my god you know this song you created your song you wrote has helped me in this way i brought it with me on my trip and you know like i've met so many people who went through high school with my music or went to university so yeah you know really pivotal times and huge changes in their worlds losing a parent losing a child you know and so like yeah so all these stories um about what it means to other people are beautiful and and cool to know that there's something i've created has made some kind of impact in someone's life and been there with them on you know a beautiful journey a tough journey and somehow help them in some way i mean you've been like a cyrano for so many people because they they've used your music to tell someone how they feel about them you know i mean yeah we came up in the era of like putting music together it was such a big deal to you know hand someone over a bunch of music that you picked for them and it was always here's my playlist but yeah exactly it was like this it was basically like this is how i feel about you you. It was like, it was like, I can't tell you, but I'm going to have you listen. And there was always like coded language and what we put together for people. And so many of your songs and your music did that for people. They allowed people to kind of, you know, feel through you, you know? And is there, is there, I mean, you're, there's so many hits. Is there a song that like became bigger than like, is it that still kind of is like surprising to you that it like it had the kind of journey it had? Well, I suppose that would be Angel. Yeah. And that was one of those very, very seldom happens as a songwriter that something happens quickly and easily for me. It's like music is flowing all the time, but lyrics are really hard work. It's like extracting blood from a stone often for me and I'm super ADD. So trying to, you know, it's like, give me any distraction when I'm trying to do something that is hard and challenging in the sense of, you know, trying to focus. But Angel felt like I was just, a vessel and it just came through me in like two days and it was done. And I remember thinking at the end of, uh, when I first put out Surfacing, like the rest of this album's crap, but Angel's, Angel's solid. I mean, obviously I had no perspective. I mean, now, now I can find so many hits on that record. Yeah, you know, there was actually some good songs on there. Yeah, a few, a few. But that is, you know, that's, that's that mindset when you've just worked and worked and worked at something and you don't have any perspective. But Angel has had, um, you know, such a life. Of its own. Yeah. And has done, you know, so many things, as I said, talking about how it's helped people through, you know, individual tough situations. So many stories of my, I've played this, my mother played this when she was passing and really helped us. Um, you know, the SPCA, obviously, you know. Well, you raised $30 million. Well, that was within the first year, I think. So who knows what has happened since. Do people assume that you, um, like, do people assume you've, you're constantly fostering and adopting animals? Oh, yeah. Because you must get that projected on you. You would not believe the, and also just, you know, like the, you know, 10 or 20 letters a week about, you know, people sending me, you know, all their rescues and, or I'm doing this charity, I'm working with this. Can you help? And, um, yeah, you know, and it, it, it took on such a life of its own. I remember I was doing a food bank charity gig in New York eight years later. And they said, can you please not play Angel? Because it's so synonymous with this, other charities. There's going to be some brand confusion. I'm like, fuck that. Are you serious? Is it true that I Will Remember You was a B-side? Like that, that, that song was on a, like in a film. Yeah. It was, uh, um, Brothers McMullen. It was Ed Byrne's directorial debut. That's right. And it just, that, that's like one of the many monster hits. Yeah. How many, how many, how many, how many number one, like how many hits have you had? Oh, you're asking the wrong people. I suppose I should know this too. Okay, we're going to look, hold on. We're going to look it up. I don't have a clue. You know what I want to do? I want to brag about you. I don't think I have any number one hits. You know what, I'm so sick of it. You know, we're always like, oh, I don't even know. And we should know. No, this is, this is embarrassing. I don't know either of it. No, it's, it's totally normal. And actually it's, it's why you're such a, you're, you're a normal person who doesn't look at their hits, but I'm going to look at your hits right now. Okay. I'm going to read them right now. Okay. Sarah, can you handle this? This is very American. Where do you find this information? And not very Canadian. Well, I just wrote Sarah McLaughlin hits. You're consulting the Oracle? Okay. Building a mystery, sweet surrender, possession, better broken ice cream. Oh yeah. Angel, Vox. We talked about Vox, heard it on the radio. Into the fire, elsewhere, fallen, fumbling toward ecstasy, adia, possession, sweet surrender, building. Everybody listening right now is having this moment of like, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh. Cause they're remembering, I mean, monster hits, Sarah. Oh, hit maker. Thanks. Sorry. I'm just going to brag for you. Okay. So then you leave Canada, you're in a band. Sorry. You're, you're, you're making music. Are you in a band at that point? No, you're just kind of making music under your, your, your, it's never Sarah McLaughlin and the. You mean when I got signed? Yeah. Yeah. No, they, that, that was the other tricky bit of that when they came and offered me that deal, my band that I, we hadn't been together for about a year cause they'd gone off to school. So we'd kind of split up, but still they were all, they knew about it and they were like, what do you say? And I'm like, oh, you're like, well, I had this beautiful. This sort of excited moment that I was like, I think they just want me. Yeah. Yeah. That's always brutal. So that was a bit of a tough, a tough moment too. But, um. Now you're, you start to tour and when, how old are you when you asked Paula Cole to open for you? 21. Wow. Maybe 22. Yeah. And, and why did you ask Paula? Cause I loved her. Yeah. I loved her music and. How did you find out about her music? Um, I think just radio. Yeah. Yeah. I was, you know, listening and watching what, you know, what else was going on out there and discovered her. I was like, oh my God, what an incredible voice. She's so powerful and I love her lyrics and love the melodies and I was like, hmm, I wonder if she'd want to come sing. Well, what I love about the Lilith Fair doc, which is on Hulu, is that it talks about the kind of slow process of realizing there's a way to work. Like there's a way to choose how to work. Yeah. It's very relatable, I think, for a lot of women who, if they're lucky enough, get an opportunity. To figure out, is there a way I like to work that I could figure out? Like it's, that's, that's the dream. Yeah. Um, and you asked Paula to join as an opening act and you two realized this is fun. This is actually fun. Yeah. Well, it's a, back then, I mean, I was, uh, all my crew were men, my band were men, I had a female backup singer, but you know, it was just us and the sea of men who I adored and loved. They were my crew and they were a wonderful bunch of people. But, um, I just, you know, having Paula there was just this breath of fresh air for me and this awareness of like, you know, we, we kind of need each other. This is a weird industry. It's isolating. We make music alone and, you know. Yeah. Um, it's just really nice to have her around. Yeah. Really. It was great to connect with her. Oh my God. I saw her at the, at TIFF. She showed up. I didn't even know she was coming and we both burst into tears. I was like, oh my God. Oh, that's so nice. I mean, I mean, it's, it's wild to me, but there are people that don't really understand what, what Lilith Fair was. And for people who don't, um, they, they should watch this doc certainly. But in a nutshell, um, how, how do you describe it to people who are, who have never heard of it or didn't get a chance to go see it? Um, it was a celebration of much of the great music that was being made by women in the late nineties. Um, and it was, uh, yeah, it was. It was basically that. And that was the simple origin story. Yeah. And then we were told we couldn't do it because you shouldn't put more than two women on a stage together. You certainly can't play two women back to back on radio. And I had felt that I had seen that and witnessed it time and time again. And I just never understood or liked the competitive nature of it. Yeah. You know, I didn't think music should be put into those kind of pigeonholes. I didn't think we as artists should be. Um, I certainly didn't notice it happening with men and that pissed me off as well. So. Uh, though it didn't start out as a political statement, it'd be kind of, you know, it'd be kind of came, became that when I was told you can't do that. I'm like, oh, oh yeah, then that doesn't work for me. No, you can't. It just put a fire under me to, to prove them wrong. Because people were saying, there's just no way anyone's going to pay this money to see all these women performing like this. Yeah. How insulting. We proved our point in 1996. Yeah. And then went, oh my gosh, this was so amazing and so fun. Let's do a full tour next summer. And that was the point at which just like, oh yeah, no, you can't do that. So funny. Really? And it was still, you just can't do it because we won't sell tickets. Yeah. Promoters would not take any risk. They were like, you can't do that. You can't say, well, we just did. And we just sold out 15,000 people. And they were like, well, that's a, that's a one-off. That's an anomaly. They're like, this isn't going to last. It's not going to last. It was, you know, ooh, that was just a little blip, a little fad or a little trend. And I'm like, no, no, no, we can do this. And again, that back to that. That naivety of just, yeah, you know, going, what are you talking about? No, we're going to do this. Right. And, you know, we took for the most, there's like no guarantees that we took all the risk. By taking the risk, did you make more money because you took the risk? Yes. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's good. I mean, it's like you had some control. We had some control. We had a ton of control. Yeah. And we got, you know, we raised over $7 million for local and national charities over the three years as well, which was just amazing. You know, again, I can't, I can't stress enough to watch the doc. But on top of everything else you were doing, I think what was so incredible about Lilith Fair is it really did feel like a fair. It was, there were people walking around, there were booths everywhere. There was fundraising constantly. There was backstage, everyone was hanging out. All the women were bringing their kids on tour. And it was like, it's like, it was like a utopian version of what it would look like if women were in charge of most of the systems of how to work. Yeah. And it. It looked and still looks like this ideal way in which to be part of a community and still feel like you're an individual with, you know, you had a lot of artists who were very, very different on that tour. Yeah. And yet they still all wanted to hang out with each other. They took care of each other. You, you know, you, you pay, you know, you gave health insurance to crew who often never had it on tour. Yeah. They never had it before. That's kind of unheard of in the industry. Yeah. I mean, listen, it was, um, it was just an extension of the way. I live my life, and again, looking at what it is as how it is as an artist as a band member a crew member coming into someone else's environment like how how would I want to be treated how would I want to be made to feel yeah I want to feel respected and um taken care of and that was just the mo it's like we're going to take care of everybody we're going to make sure everybody feels good respected this is a this is a safe space this is fun you're all going to get fed really well I mean I'll never forget you know crew came in first day of new new artists and they're always super grumpy I mean you know I've had that experience going into a festival you know where it's like are we even going to get a sound check are we going to get fed it's going to be a long day by the end of the day everybody's happy everybody's smiling like okay this is this is going to be great and that is the environment that I wanted to create for everybody there it's like this is an extension of me of my of my hospitality of my ethos yes you know this is how you want to work be respectful treat treat everybody the way you want to be treated yourself yeah you know like live and let live let people be and let's just I know sounds very woo-woo and utopian I still like that though I mean I just man it's like why can't we all just get along why does it why do we have to keep and also why do we have to say these kind of things and then apologize for like how earnest and like because like it's hopeful we need to stay hopeful it's like you know that was the thing about the doc is that what I felt was you know you didn't no one can get anything exactly right right so what was really wonderful about what I felt like you were doing was constantly pivoting taking feedback and adjusting like there was a lot of adjustments you made you what were some of the things that you you know when you were making that fair in its second or third year you realized oh we have to adjust here yeah I mean we the the big adjustment was very early on which was like you know white chick folk fest and I mean I I knew that was coming and I was I agreed with that I you know and I was frustrated by it because we asked everybody we asked all these different artists from all different genres of music um but you know to to be fair their management teams would look at the lineup so far and go I'm not sure where the place is for my artists in this yeah and you know in my head my naive head I'm like I listen to all different kinds of music I know that most of my friends who are fans of music they don't listen to just one genre they it just depends on their mood they have so why are we being so um you know uh minimizing of the you know and and sort of looking at our fans and going oh they they can't handle this but of course they can handle it they they want it they're hungry for it and so to create that opportunity that you know for all of us to showcase our unique talents which is again it just it felt like the most natural thing in the world yeah and so people but it was but it was a struggle to get those get a lot of you know black and brown artists for sure like I don't know where my place is sure and they want to see how it does yeah they want to see so the success of the first year then allowed us way more latitude and way more freedom to go hey you know you know go back and push and say look this is a really great opportunity for your artists to expand their fan base yeah um and you know we in the second year we also um we realized there was an opportunity again to how do you expand your um fingerprint in a community after you leave not only giving a dollar every ticket sale to a local women's shelter but having a stage for local artists in every market you know so just creating those opportunities tons of tabling of various local organizations um you know women's organizations local and national like just raising awareness creating the space where there's open dialogue about all these things yeah this episode is brought to you by Hilton the official hotel partner of the big 10 every college football weekend fired up fans hit the road with their lucky shirts pre-game rituals with friends and family and oddly specific traditions good thing Hilton's unmatched hospitality is ready they know not to wash your lucky jersey they'll find you a room with your favorite player's number and prepare your must-have pre-game waffles when you need a team that will do whatever it takes to get you to the top of your game you can find a team that will do whatever it takes on game day it matters where you stay Hilton for the stay for adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms every choice matters trim fire offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start trim fire is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks if your doctor decides that you can 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them just for a second like okay so we've got we've got paula we've got sean incredible we've got um cheryl crowe yeah erica badu michelle and dave ocello uh queen latifah missy elliott first time ever on tour i know that was a coup how did you get missy um well you'd have to ask marty that i mean he was yeah that was above my pay grade but um somehow he got missy and uh that was that was awesome i mean that footage of her coming out on stage like in the yeah in the giant when she was when she wore that big when she used to do the big garbage bag stuff with like all the inflatable stuff in that style so she's incredible yeah and and such an incredible and you saw the entire audience instantly stood up it's like oh okay wow what is this this is so much fun what about you had the indigo girls join the indigo girls were such an amazing anchor for me um they came on early on and kind of got everybody you know feeling comfortable about singing together like i was still a good canadian like i was i was afraid to ask i really wanted to sing with everybody but i didn't quite know how to do it and it's funny watching the doc how jewel was so you know said it exactly the same way it's like i didn't know i was allowed to do that yeah um they're like oh no why don't why don't why isn't everybody singing together i'm like oh we can do that he's like yeah let's just go do it um and they so they just opened up this huge opportunity for all of us to really feel a whole different kind of connection and that's when things really took off and i also love what they say in the doc the indigo girls are basically like you need some like openly gay girls here to to teach you how to party um you had pat benatar yes emmy lou harris emmy lou harris bonnie rate shenaid o'connor yeah i mean that was the part in the document i mean i've seen so many iterations of this over the edits but i cry every time tell me why well because she's gone and she was yeah such a gift what was she like she was really shy at the beginning but wow did she open up she was a little shit as well like she was super playful like a jokester prankster um we had so much fun together and then to get to sing with her you know it's like being in the presence of you know a goddess basically uh when she opens up her mouth and starts to sing it's just it's otherworldly yeah and i i got to be part of that and i got to sing with her a number of nights and uh yeah that was pretty magical and then just you know getting to watch that like all these moments that were so powerful and important to me and and and watching myself grow up on screen like not a lot of humans get to have a gift like that given to them where it's like this is such a powerful and important time in my life um that has been so succinctly and beautifully capitalized yeah um so yeah watching watching that it's just she's she's gone now and it's so sad so sad such an incredible talent yeah and she was you know she she suffered even back then like she just she was really misunderstood and yeah you know yeah it's tough tracy chapman another beautiful artist who i love in the documentary you talk about how she was the one everyone one of many people that everyone came out and watched yeah oh every night i mean she's just talk about grace yeah just this quiet graceful presence she was very shy too yeah um it was kind of hard to draw her it's always so funny that people who are performing you know it's it's things we learn over and over again obviously but we're reminded that people her performers are not necessarily extroverts such an introvert yeah um who's the most introverted i mean who's the most introverted on that tour and who is the most extroverted uh tracy is probably the most introverted and extroverted um maybe cheryl um i mean me i was you know i was pretty extrovert actually okay i mean amy and emily for sure yeah because they were just loud you know they were loud and proud yeah let's have fun yeah um so they brought that really like they said this really sort of geeky fan fan energy um and you had like you talked about emily lew harris um uh bonnie reed chrissy hind yeah and and i don't know if you feel this way but i know i do because in you know i've had i grew up in a generation where i feel like women my age right now are working together all the time and feeling really good about that and loving that experience and when you meet someone who's maybe 10 years older than you they just haven't had that experience very much i've been on many sets where women um in their mid-60s have said oh i've i've never you know been on a set with this many women well yeah i mean i've been on a set with this many women and i've been they grew up at a time where we you know in whatever industry we were in we were being offered a tiny sliver of the pie yeah and we were in competition with each other in every element like it or not and think about what they what they came up against as they were coming up in the world that was even you know i would argue more toxic and more marginalizing towards women yeah and you know you just kind of had to deal with those were the social norms then yeah um you walked into a radio station and get your ass grabbed fucking hell or or just knowing that that made happen or just the comments you know like and it yeah you know i think i bought it out yeah well because it was normalized totally and you just you suck it up and you keep going because well if you make a stink about it then you're you're pushed out even further into the margins yeah and you're hanging out in a room full of boys yeah and if you want to be in that room you kind of need to toe the line it was the same thing i was you know thinking about that um like anne powers is in the documentary love anne powers yeah you know i didn't like anne powers back then because she ripped the shit out of us and i'm like are you kidding me and she kind of claims it right she's like i didn't get it she's like i saw she couldn't have though because she was in a room full of guys and she was a single woman female critic like i forgive her because i understand now i didn't at the time i'm like how could you be doing this but the room that she was in was her male counterparts and if she you know spoke appreciatively or in reverence to what we were doing she would have been ostracized yeah we all suffered in debt we all suffered in our 20s in the 90s with deep internalized misogyny that we didn't even know we had yeah in an attempt to assimilate we were like i want to be in the room i want to figure out how to work the system and i'm gonna without even knowing i'm gonna buy into a system that i don't believe in and that's actually hurting me yeah and what i love about ann powers who's a journalist in the film who kind of owns up to the fact that she wrote about you know wrote about how she didn't wasn't getting little fair and it wasn't for her she realizes like much later on that she was grappling with her own like sense of trying to fit in yeah i mean little fair got teased like ridiculed did you care about that at the time how did you yeah yeah how did it feel um it was it was hurtful it was annoying but i just kept going back to the fact that well you obviously haven't come yes and seen it and felt it because if you had you'd think differently so i just kind of like well you can have your opinion but i'm having the time of my life no kidding and i don't want you're missing out sorry yeah it's yes that's right and i loved how you guys did press conferences in every city that you went to it was so painful did you ever think about not doing them no because there were there was a there were two elements to that there was one to you know the press wanted access we understood that that was part of the beast that you have to feed um and the the beautiful thing is at the end of the press conference we got to give attention to a local woman's shelter yeah you know to sort of raise awareness for the issues that they were dealing with and to show that we were and not to be self-congratulatory but to show that we were giving money to this and to raise awareness for it yeah um and i tell you the it felt so good to have that cherry at the end of this you know typically annoying and demeaning and dumb press conference where i just got besieged every day with you know why why do you hate men why aren't you doing this why aren't you doing that you're too much of this you're not enough of that very typical don't be too pretty don't be too loud or you're too you know you're too quiet like yeah you can't win and that was that thing that i hadn't experienced until i was you know in in this this quiet radical movement that we were yeah that we were doing of just you know just basically being ourselves and celebrating each other and celebrating the success that we were all having and appreciating that and lifting each other up again like why is that so radical why is that so threatening as it was kind of shocking yeah um yeah so yeah the press conferences were painful but they were also um an important thing to do i mean you handled those conferences from what i saw really really well for the most part yeah you really did was it hard sometimes to be running the festival while you were in it because everybody else kind of gets to come in and like have a good time i wasn't running it uh dan fraser was running it i mean he had a hell of a job you're kind of the you know you're the you know to your point you're i'm the face of it for sure and you have to worry about stuff like yeah you know it's like having the house party right yeah there were a ton of day-to-day decisions that had to be made there were a ton of fires that had to be put out someone didn't show up someone someone slept with someone else or you know it there was just one and then and then they were like someone was angry and hurt or someone said something that hurt someone's feelings and you had to deal with like hr was there an hr me me and dan there was no freaking hr we were just like okay shit totally you just how do we manage this you put on a blazer and you were like okay let's talk you know it's like it was kind of julie the cruise director yeah you know totally saying hi to everybody making sure everybody felt good um writing letters to every new artist and it's like 100 and some one year you know so it's just this constant flow of meeting new people and making sure everybody was great yeah um and then yeah putting out the fires of the day or just being involved in all these little decisions that come you know we kind of had to make on a daily basis so yeah it was exhausting and all-encompassing but you know again the the gift at the end was like i i got to watch all these artists i got to perform with all these artists okay so we do this thing on the um on the pod where we ask people who know our guests to speak well behind their back um and to give me a question to ask them so we talked to cheryl crowe this morning oh my gosh i know and it was so fun and so fun to talk to her about those times and you guys performing together and you know i was saying to her you know it was just it's so it was just and it will never get old watching you all be each other's fans you know like you're you're an artist and you're also a fan and she's such an incredible talent and she wanted me to ask you two questions that were really interesting questions to ask they're kind of opposite but also feel like they're in the same world one is if you were not making music did you ever think of what else you would do um ever so briefly because i don't know what else i would do um either a hairdresser or um a jewelry designer which honestly i still kind of do design jewelry yeah just really simple stuff like i made last two christmases ago i made like 30 necklaces for all my friends and i'm crafty you're a crafter you know i need something to do with my hands or they're in my mouth yeah it's not healthy i love that okay and and and that makes sense hairdresser too because you like touching people's hair yeah i was a dance mom for years so i got to do all these you know for your daughters yeah yeah are you good at a blow do a good blowout um i do a pretty good blowout yeah yeah but i like i like the french braids and the oh you can do the intricate stuff yeah well done yeah okay and then so that was one and then the other question was did you have a sense um did you know deep down you know people ask this question from a lot of artists but was there some part of you that knew that you were going to make it that you were going to be famous was cheryl's question but like was there a part of you that sensed that or knew that no no i can honestly say no and mostly because i didn't even know what that meant yeah i did not know what that looked like i did not come from a culture of looking at famous people and and you know hoping to achieve that yeah my thing was I want to do something that makes me feel good. Yeah. It was so naive and so simple. But it's pure. And pure. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, you know, again, this sort of blissful time in the world where we could kind of just figure it out, figure out as we go. Yeah. Yeah. And we were, there were so many more opportunities to just, you know, to fumble around and try and figure it out. Like, I just feel like even both my daughters, there was just so much pressure to decide, you know, what university to go to. And you kind of have to make a decision about the whole trajectory of your life. And I'm like, oh my God, half my friends in my 50s still don't have a clue what they're doing. You know, I just got really, really lucky that I had this, you know, this path that I kind of got off. I got offered the golden ticket at 19 and it's like, well, this will be fun. I'll go do this. And my dad said, listen, if this doesn't work out, the art college is still, it's always going to be there, but this will not. You got to try it. Of course I wanted to, but yeah. I didn't. It's funny. In my yearbook, someone wrote destined to become a famous rock star, which is hilarious. And I'm just like, ha ha ha. Yeah. But we didn't know what that even looked like. I know. I know. That's very woo woo. I know. Destined to become a famous rock star. Yeah. Somebody knew. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's combo of both those things. So you can see that, you know, other people can see things that you can't see too often. For sure. Right? Yeah. And you talk about your daughters too. And I love the beautiful aspect that your daughter sings on this record with you. Yeah. That was a great full circle moment for me. How, why? Well, because they, you know, they're, they both have beautiful voices. They won't sing around me. And I guess because, you know, I, I sing and that's often the case with kids. They kind of try and go the opposite, but we cannot deny they both have beautiful voices. But the song in particular, one in a long line, it's the last song I wrote. And I think it was this, you know, looking at what's going on in the world. And the erosion of women's rights, not only here, but all over the world. And thinking about what do I need to say? I feel like now is not the time to be silent or complacent. Like I've always, you know, tread that line carefully and not been political, but I'm like, I have to say something about this. I'm just, I'm so frustrated and angry and scared. And I have two daughters and they're, they're going into the world and, you know, we, we need to speak loudly about the things that we believe in, even, even though I was afraid to. So, and I've always used music as my vehicle to, for expression. Yeah. So that song, to have both my daughters sing on that with me just felt really powerful. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. And what was it like being in the studio with each other, the stude? Well, we actually weren't. It was in my daughter's phone, in my daughter's bedroom on my iPhone because. Perfect. Yeah. It was kind of at the, I wrote that song right at the end of the record. And, you know, Will was actually mixing the rest of the record and trying to organize my kids. You know, there was a bit of convincing to get him to do it the first place. Sure. I'll do it next week, Mom. And I'm like, okay. We're mixing the record. Will needs these tracks now. So we just actually sat in the bedroom with my eldest and she sang it. She just put headphones on it. Oh, wow. iPhones are amazing for that now. Yeah. And then Taja, my little one, went down into the studio. She wouldn't let me near her when she did it. Yeah, I was wondering if they would let you watch. No. Yeah. But my 23-year-old, you know, just earnest, full voice, sang right in front of me. So uninhibited. It was so beautiful. And again, this is deeply more powerful because of the challenges and the struggles that we've been through for so many years as mother and firstborn daughter. Yeah. Because it was tough. What have you been learning about being the mother of daughters? Like, but what was tough about it? You know, I mean, there's so many things I could say about that. And I wish I knew what I know now to be able to go back. You know, without feeling regret. What would you say to yourself knowing what you know now? I would have been softer on her in a different way. I was a hard ass. And it's funny because I thought so clearly in my own mind that I was being the antithesis of my mother. And I looked at the way she parented and I thought, I'm going to do everything completely different. And then her words come spewing out of your mouth in a moment of anger and frustration. You're like, oh my God, I can't believe I did that. But I just, you know, I, she was undiagnosed. We thought she had ADHD and, you know, when things got hard, this wall would go up and she'd just rage and be so frustrated. And so, you know, I looked at that and going, how do we, how do I help you with this? How do we move past this? Because the world out there is scary and big and you have to have some grit and you have to do hard things so that, you know, you can. So I was tough. And what we didn't realize is that was, it was actually anxiety and all this came out. We did family systems counseling. So peeling back all those layers of the onion, the way I was communicating to her, like was just making her feel shitty about herself instead of building her up, which was completely the opposite of what I thought I was doing. So, you know, I had to eat a lot of humble pie and take stock and go, okay, look, I want a relationship with my kid. So I need to learn how to communicate differently with her. And in doing so, she also got to take some responsibility for the way she was reacting and recognizing that that's not where I was coming from anyway. So it was a long process, but it was beautiful and powerful and we have such an open, loving relationship now because of that. It's so great, Sarah, that you talk about this. I just have to say, because it's the way that women help each other constantly is to just like break free from the narrative that we are getting everything right as mothers. Like it's, it's, it's a joke. It's such a joke, but, but it's really hard. It's, it's, it's kind of the last frontier. We all live in constant judgment. You know, it's like, oh, you know, you watch people look at you out of the corner of the eye when you let your kid cry. You let your kid cry in the grocery, grocery store floor. That's right. You know, it's like, oh my God, corral that kid. You're a bad parent because you're doing this or you're doing that or not doing this. It's like, again, just constant judgment. Constant judgment and pressure and the most coming from within on ourselves. For sure. And anytime we share any version of that out loud or just even in our friend group, like you just feel this feeling that everyone wants to say, like. That's an exhale. Yes, me too. I'm feeling that too. What, you know, like it's, it's wild how we still do this to ourselves. Over and over. I mean, we get it done to us, of course, too, but we do it to ourself. There's an alarm. There's a siren right there coming to pick us up because we're such bad moms. I mean, it's the same thing with menopause, you know, like it was just, there was no conversation about it and just, you know, all the changes that we go through. And thank goodness, like I kind of love social media for that now because there are so many platforms that women are now talking about this and all and doctors are finally paying attention to the hundreds of thousands. Of women who suffered and who went through all sorts of shit. And the doctor's just like, eh, you know, it's just, it's just a thing. Just suck it up. Yeah. It's like, is my frozen shoulder because of menopause? And doctors are like, we'll never know. Yeah. And I'm like, you don't want to look it up. No one's going to put any money towards research on that. You know? Yeah. They're like, huh, maybe. Oh, if men could bleed, you know, things would be very, very different. That would be a good heavy metal band name. If men could bleed. A double bills. If men could bleed and skinny puppy. That's perfect. Okay. I got a few rapid fire for you. Okay. Okay. First of all, how do you, what's your sleep routine? I love to ask people this. Do you love to sleep? I love to sleep. Are you good at sleeping? I'm really, yes. I'm good at sleeping now that I'm on estrogen and progesterone. It totally makes a big difference. Because it went to shit. Yeah. That's when I went into menopause. Yeah. And do you take any sleep? Do you take anything to go to sleep? No. And what's your ritual to go to sleep? Well, you know what? Red light therapy has been my friend. Hold on. Talk to me about it. I have. I don't know about this. I have a massage table. I basically have this like six foot long panel of red light, especially because, you know, when I'm skate skiing three hours a day, as I was doing a lot, like your body needs, your muscles need to. I'm hearing you say for the first, skate skiing? Yeah. You know, like it's like cross country. So there's classic, which is in the grooves and skate is on the corduroy. And it's like, you know, biathlon. You just said four words. I don't know. Grooves and corduroy. Are you on ice skates? No, no. It's classic. It's like, it's like cross country skiing. It's on these little match sticks. Okay. And you just, you kind of, they're long, like cross country skates, but instead of being in the two. You just said skates again. So you're on skates or skis? They're skate skis. So what they are is a very narrow, long skis. We don't have those here. You do. We do not. You do. I have been to Colorado. I don't know how many years in a row skate skiing. So you do. Okay. Okay. It's a big thing. That's incredible. So it's so fun. I just, I love, I love being outdoors. I love nature. I would be outside all the time if I could. It just gets a little. It's too cold. But, you know, to be able to be for four hours outside in the snow, in the mountains. Yes. Incredible. Like just finding frozen lakes and going out on like, it's magical. And the coolest part about where I live is I can take my dogs. That's awesome. Yeah. So doing a lot of that. Anyway, so back to. Yeah. So I exhaust myself. Yeah. If I can. That's right. Climbing hills or, you know, jumping in lakes, whatever. Skate skiing. And then, so usually I spend like 15 minutes before I go to bed, just lying under this light. Cause it just calms your central nervous system down. It's red light. Yeah. Red light therapy. Ooh. Yeah. Infrared. You heal faster. I'm serious. I get one of these red lights. So I do that. Not every night, but most nights. You know, I don't really have much of a ritual. I try to stop drinking water around five o'clock. So I don't have to get up in the middle of the night and pee. Oh yeah. So I front load. Yeah. As best as my abilities. But, you know, I usually go to bed around nine. Oh, that's what I'm talking about. That's kind of it. There's no. 9 p.m. That is a winner's. That's a winner's time. I mean, honestly, 10 is probably. a little more realistic, but I try to go to bed at nine, especially in the winter. And, you know, I'll watch a show or read a book for an hour. There's nothing good that happens after 10. Not much. Especially when you have to get up at 6. Shut it down. Go to bed at 9. Wake up at 6. Feel like a hero. Give me eight hours of solid sleep. I am so much less an asshole. My dream is to eat dinner at 6.30 and then walk right into the bedroom at night. The early bird special. I try and eat around 5, 5.30. 5, 5.30. And then just start to shut her down. And shut her down. Okay, rapid fire. Here we go. Who do you predict is going to be your Spotify rapt this year? Like, who are the musicians you're listening to the most on your, like, if we were? Phoebe Bridgers. Ah! Yeah. The best. Yeah. Or Boy Genius or, you know, a combination of the two. Who would definitely be, would be on, like, a current version of Lilith Fair if there existed one. Top of the bill. And in some ways, Boy Genius is the parent of all that. Three amazing musicians, singer-songwriters, independently unique and beautiful, all choosing to come together to be a powerhouse trio. Yes. It's awesome. Best Canadian city. Ooh, I'm going to get in trouble. Vancouver. What's the best thing about being Canadian and non-American? That is so baiting. Sorry. Don't worry about it. Forget it. Forget it. Forget it. Health care. Yeah, health care. Surfing or paddle boarding? Surfing. So you surf? Yeah. I've been surfing since I was 30. And then you were on SNL and Rudy Giuliani was the host. Oh, my God. I remember that. Yeah. So it was Sarah McLachlan. Sarah McLachlan and Rudy Giuliani back again in 1997. Yeah. What do you remember about your experience? Was that the only time you were on SNL? I feel maybe like I was on twice, but I'm not sure. Honestly, what I remember is Anna Gangster and like, you know, Based in Blood doing that. I don't know if that was really Rudy Giuliani. Were you on the show when Anna did the Lilith? Not the Lilith one, no. But Based in Blood, which was the Thanksgiving song. I got to participate in that. Wait, you were in that? I was in it. Yeah. Okay, this is really interesting. Anna used to play a character on SNL called Cinder Calhoun. Yes. Cinder Calhoun. Who was a very earnest, you know, kind of like progressive singer-songwriter. And she sang a song called Based in Blood. Let's watch it. Anna's such a good singer. Thank you. Oh my God. This is so good. I remember this. Oh my God. This is so good. Well, I'm so grateful that you came here. You are always ahead of your time. And I can't wait to see what you do next. And congrats on all the good things that are happening now. And it means a lot that you came by. So thank you so much. Happy to be here. Wow. Thank you so much, Sarah McLaughlin. You are so cool and interesting. And so fun to talk to. And it really took me down memory lane there. And, you know, for this Polar Plunge, I just wanted to remind everybody how badass Pat Benatar is. That's all. Just how amazing her voice is and how great of an artist she is. And like Sarah, has just always been this, you know, woman kind of making music on her own terms. And she was, I think, probably Pat Benatar and New Edition were the first two concerts I saw when I was in middle school. And I saw Pat Benatar at the Orpheum in Boston in, I don't know, I think maybe I was a freshman in high school. And her husband, Neil Giraldo, lead guitarist, still together. So anyway, that's all. Just using this time to say, Pat, if you're listening, I love you. Please come on the show. And to everybody else listening, here's to all the great music we had growing up and all the great music we have now and all the great music yet to come. Music will save us. Okay, bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Alea Zanaris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles. All I ever wanted was a really good hang. Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in a wearable. So your Vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features describe your heart rate. For wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple-conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com slash applewatchseries12. This episode is brought to you by Hilton, the official hotel partner of the Big Ten. Every college football weekend, fired-up fans hit the road with their lucky shirts, pregame rituals with friends and family, and oddly specific traditions. Good thing Hilton's unmatched hospitality is ready. 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