Sarah Longwell: Dems, Go on Offense FFS

U.S. voters abroad. Have you got your ballot yet? All states are now sending ballots to overseas voters. So if you want to vote this year, you should request your ballot right away. Go to votefromabroad.org and click "Request My Ballet." Ask to receive it by email. Questions? Ask our support team directly. Don't miss this chance to shape the future. Don't delay. Votefromabroad.org. [MUSIC] Hello and welcome to the Bullwark daily on your host Tim Miller. It is Friday as promised. We got a mailbag and I'm here with the publisher of this year Bullwark. She has a book out September 8th. How to eat an elephant, one voter at a time. We'll put the link to the show notes. You've even bought it yet. I don't know what you're doing. Please pre-order it now. Also, the show notes a friend of Mariam Tamacebi, whose just horrific story I talked about in the podcast earlier this week reached out and with a guild fund me for her and her family. They've been in the Delhi internment camp for like four months, even though they're legal residents. So we'll put that in the show notes as well. Appreciate any support you have. Double, double duty today, girl. Thank you for doing this. I just finished a long slog secret pod with JVL. Actually, it was a great secret pod. Go listen to it. Okay. I mean, this is what you're getting as a Bullwark plus member of the secret pod. That's right. You want to take advantage of it. I have one overlap topic just because we have to do it. Yep. With the secret pod. Besides that, it's all freshies for people. Okay. Great. That's what we call freshies. Yeah, skiing when you're skiing when you go on the mountain. You know, if it snows a little bit overnight, you get freshies. I'd never heard that. No. It's like a little Colorado slang for you. Gotcha. The Kennedy Center, there were some announcements yesterday. The Board of Trustees, which is Trump and his pals, approved a resolution calling for a new inscription beneath the center sign that would read restored and renovated by President Donald J. Trump. It also voted to close the venue for tears of renovations and rename the center's grounds. President Donald J. Trump Plaza. This decision faces some legal obstacles for people to pay attention. Trump had added his name to the building already. The court said that was not allowed. The judge, I think, said that the law makes crystal clear that the center is to be named for President Kennedy. They've had a tarp over it, I guess, and so do you ever drive by? I do. The tarp is up. The tarp is up. They don't want anyone to see the building without Donald Trump's name on it. And because people, including our people, went and camped out there when they were supposed to be taking his name down, they didn't want anybody to see that, right? Because the only thing Trump cares about is his sort of fragile little ego. And so, yes, they've tarped it. And now they basically, they clearly went back to the drawing board and said, how do we get his name on this? And one of the things that this is the board's doing, but if you remember, they stripped. They took everyone off the Kennedy Center board when Trump came in, put Rick Grinnell in charge of it, I believe. And then stacked it with a bunch of other sort of Trump totes. So their big goal has been shutting down the Kennedy Center and figuring out any way possible to get Trump's name on it. Yeah, that was Rick's consolation prize after he lobbied to be Secretary of State. And I think we'll put the gay over to the theater. One of the things I promised people after Trump won was that I was not going to pretend to be outraged about things. You know, like we only have so much kind of room in our heart for rage, if we're not going to stroke out. This has been a story that I've, you know, I'm not a theater queen. It's just, you know, it's what my weaknesses you are. Should I be really mad about this? I mean, aren't we just going to take his name off the fucking platform as soon as we win again? And so it's kind of like this is stupid. Or is there a reason for me to be really more mad about it than I am? So I think all of the reflecting pool, the ballroom, the Kennedy Center, they all sort of don't matter substantively, but they matter a great deal sort of metaphorically because it is, this is the example of how we are all being dominated by Trump's ego. He pays attention to these things. He doesn't pay attention to the material needs of Americans. He walks us into a stupid war. He will go in the record and say, yeah, I don't care if Republicans lose. I don't care if inflation is up. Like, I don't care. I love the inflation, he says. And so he won't pay attention to those things that matter. He does pay attention to this. So I think it matters in that regard about where Trump's attention is. Yeah, I think it matters politically. I cheat on you on a little bit and monitor a focus group that was not one of yours. Who was it? I'm just a friend who works for a campaign. And it was going to just give me a readout of their focus group in one of the House races. And this notion really has broken through. Yeah. Like with Trump voters, with swing voters. Like the idea that he cares only about this shit. Right. And I do think that that is that's meaningful. Right? And I think that like this stuff, if the economy is good-- Exactly. --he hadn't done the stupid war. Yep. --maybe, you know-- He'd get away with it. Yeah, he'd get away with it. You know, there is this glimpse on the sub-stack we may have. But maybe that would just be it. But I don't-- I do think this has more resonance for that reason. I mean, this is where the contrast-- So I talk a lot about contrast because I think that when you hear this in my focus groups all the time, where people are like, I expect it to have the economy of Trump's first term. And the fact that they aren't. And the fact that there is this war. And I cannot stress enough. I just did a bunch of focus groups in Florida. When we were on a call, she played some sound from the Florida focus groups. I was genuinely a little surprised at how angry these voters were at Trump right now. And it is the war. And it is the tariffs. And it is the fact that he is not paying attention to the economy. And that is why these things now matter. And then there was the one Cletus who was mad that we're not deporting enough people yet. But he was mad about both. That's-- I mean, it was funny that she played that clip of a guy being like, they're not doing enough mass deportations. And also the war is really stupid. Where his-- and he was like, I want to give Trump an F. Because he's not deporting enough. And he got us into a stupid war. Those people are meaningful because it is like, is that kind of a vote? Very possibly not. Yeah, I mean, this is where the enthusiasm gap gets real going into 2026. When these Republicans are just frustrated with Trump, if you're a Republican and you love Trump, you're like, well, I want to protect his agenda. If you hate his agenda, you're much less motivated to do it. Speaking of things we're mad about. Yesterday, you know, when I think of an ordinance, you had about on the pod. I asked you kind of like, what you're upset about. And you mentioned the Max Miller situation. Simultaneously, yesterday, for people who are not on x.com, I created a little bit of a stir, which when I did the thing I do about once a year, which is remind people of Mike Lawler, the congressman from New York. When he was 18, even still, I did some weird stuff when I was 18, but nothing like this. He traveled from New York to California to go to Michael Jackson's trial. Where he trolled the parents of the children that were alleging. All stations. All stations. Yeah. He also has dressed up in Michael Jackson blackface. That's pretty weird. So these two topics merged when shoot when Michael Lawler was on Dana Bash. Yesterday, and I want to play a little bit of their conversation. I am not making the allegation, his ex-wife is his ex father-in-law. And I'm asking you a purely political question. It's a purely political question. Why not just give it back? It's only $10,000. Because this is the typical Washington. This is the typical Washington media game where it's always. An allegation comes up. You must return the money. It's the typical game. Everybody plays. And it doesn't actually do anything to further the situation. If there's evidence that Max did something, then obviously there should be a thorough investigation of that. But thus far, there's been nothing to verify any of the claims that have been leveled. I think it is a tragic family situation. We all know people who have gone through nasty divorces. Do we? Do we all know people who have gone through nasty divorces? Where the wife says that the husband scalded her. And there's domestic violence. And the husband kidnapped the child's beloved bunny. And there are two other women that say that the husband has roughed them up or done other kinds of domestic violence. I don't think that's typical divorce. I don't know anybody who's been in a nasty divorce like that, actually. No, plenty of people who've gotten divorced. I've never heard anything like this. I really want to talk about the Max Miller thing. Because it is an example of a bunch of things that bother me in the moment. But Lawler's really highlighting one of them, which is we have like six weeks out from the Platner discourse because he, like every other Republican, when the Platner thing was happening and the accusations were coming out, condemned Platner, condemned all his supporters, condemned anyone who was backing him. And so Democrats did the right thing and they tossed Platner overboard when he was credibly accused of rape. Republicans in extraordinary close proximity to that same thing happening. Who you may remember, Tim, our friend Kevin McCarthy and Kellyanne Conway. Oh, yeah. Going on TV regularly to say, we don't defend abusers in our ranks. Now, at the time, it was already absurd because, of course, Donald Trump renders all of that stuff. The hypocrisy is already there. But to then just weeks later, have this Max Miller situation, right? And Republicans basically be like, now we're going to stick with him. And for somebody like Mike Lawler who likes to pretend, like. He's one of the good guy moderates to say, this is just divorce. The hypocrisy is staggering and they are willing to brazen these out. This is a difference between Republicans and Democrats and it is not just lawler and the elected officials. It's the entire sort of right wing Twitter brigade who came for us over platter, who came for everybody over platter. That's right. And they're all heads in the sand on Max Miller, which brings me to the second thing that really bothers me about the maximum. I get some likes. I do want to tell you, when I criticize Max Miller, I do get some likes from Republican world. I believe Harmi Dillon. Oh, they don't speak out, but they're willing to say that to you. Yeah, but yeah, they don't like him and so, you know, and those likes are private. I should have. I should have. I should have out them. I probably should have done that already. You should. Anyway, Harmi Dillon, this one that comes to mind, but, you know, I was making fun of Max Miller and because they all hate him. He's a douche. Yeah. And he fucking beat up a Republican center's daughter and the spokeswoman. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, they don't like us. They always a scumbag. Yeah. You and I did a take one point where we laid out all of the times. Trump was willing. Interestingly, Michael Jackson came up and that one too, where Trump went, goes to bat for any abuser who shows up, Mike Tyson, Michael Jackson, you know, Eric played with Michael Jackson. Yeah, he talks about how his kids played with Michael Jackson all the time. Yeah. It's a weird one. Okay. That's one part of it. Then I want to talk about Democrats and offense. So one of the things that is driving me crazy right now is that in light of this hypocrisy, right, the way that the right came together around Graham Platner to go on offense, not just against Platner himself, but against everybody who might have tacitly supported him. They came at me even though I wasn't tacitly supporting him. Like they made tried to make a tie everybody to their behavior. And my dad's retirement party, some, you know, some family members that are a mega, you know, we're like asking me about Graham Platner, like quizzing me about Graham Platner. And I was asking them. I was like, do you know who Mary Petola is or Roy Cooper is? And it's like, no, it never even heard any of these other names, right? Because to your point, because the right is really good at like surfacing, you know, these bad examples of Democrats and going on offense, forcing Democrats have to defend it. But psychology of this is they hide from themselves, their own disgusting acquiescence to Trump and all the immorality that comes with that, right? They don't want to tell themselves that story. So what they focus on offensively is any Democrat who behaves poorly as a way to say what about what about and to inoculate themselves right from that criticism. But it is wild to me in this moment when they are so close to the Graham Platner situation where Republicans are standing by Max Miller and Democrats aren't in a brigade themselves going on offense against Republicans for doing this. They should be hanging it around Eric Erickson's neck. They should be hanging it around every Republican who has made the Platner think such a big deal. But they can't because they're fighting with each other. Yeah, that's right. And Lollard provides a good example, you know, and this is an easy opportunity. And I assume Kate Connelly and her campaign will will take this opportunity. It's like, you can tie back to the Epstein issue. It's like all these guys except for what MTG needs. You may start like four of them like all of them blocked the Epstein files release. So you've got Mike Lollard who is so into Neverland Ranch that he went like flu to defend. This was brand new information to defend Michael Jackson and troll the victim's parents. So big defender of Neverland Ranch, Epstein cover up in favor of running, you know, cover for Max Miller, who is probably his domestic violence by Republicans, like, there is a good story to tell against these people. And like Mike Lollard, I mean, who is who was on CNN, I guess, you know, doing the Humana Humana. Like, this should continue to nag him. And that is replicable, I think, in other situations with the example that I don't know that anybody else is that huge fan of Michael Jackson's pillow fight parties with the children. I know people have very strong opinions about the Michael Jackson stuff. And let's just say, forget which side of that maybe you're on how I don't, I don't, why would you do that? Well, I just, no, I'm not neutral, no, no, I'm not neutral, but I still think that my only point is is that even if you were neutral, the idea that you would put on blackface and go down there. Not granted. He was 18. These are two severed incidents. One incident he put on blackface. We'll put the picture up. That's great for people. Oh, it's not the same thing. No, two things. I guess there's a big stand, he's big in the stand golfer. So one time he did Michael Jackson blackface, it was kind of weird because Michael Jackson kind of did whiteface. Well, he had, I think he had a disease. I saw it on Oprah when I was young. Oh, okay. Well, even still, if you could dress as Michael Jackson without darkening your face, given how Michael Jackson looked. Right. But anyway, he went, the extra mile and did the blackface. Right. Now it's for a party. And then also went to the trial. Okay. Well, I didn't know any of that until I saw your tweet and that was fun. But my point is, is that that is a wild thing to do, to like go down to a trial. That is an intense thing to do, regardless of how you feel. I want to see Democrats, like guys, male, Mike Lawler, a million blue bunnies, like put the blue bunny in your Instagram profile, like I think we not make this. A huge issue. Can we not discover what offense looks like and go after the bad guys? Yeah. Look at that Michael Jackson blackface photo, Katie just put that up on the screen here in the studio. Look at that. Look at that. What a look. What is he doing? He's doing the dance. Yeah. US voters abroad. Go to votefromabroad.org and click, request my ballot, ask to receive it by email. Questions? Don't delay. Votefromabroad.org. There's another clip I saw yesterday of, of Manosphere stuff. Shane Gillis. Who's always like, people I don't know, he's like probably the best of the bro comedians, really. You know, he did, and he's been photographed with Trump. He's a little, you know, he's a little. More Trump curious than us here at the headquarters of, you know, Trump's arrangement syndrome. But like compared to some of the other guys out there, Rogan has him on. And there are a bunch of interesting clips, like they're talking about how great socialized health care is. For example, I'm like, there are a bunch of interesting things, but there was one that particularly caught my mind, because Shane is telling Joe about the- The corruption. Yeah. The corruption that's happening. He tells me about the example of Trump selling for $100,000 access to his tweets early. So people can inside your trade on him. Let's watch a little bit of that exchange. I don't know what's happening at the beginning of the clip. Looks like a man is drinking out of a American flag boot. We should get one of those. No, I think it's an eagle's butt. What's an eagle's butt? Okay. I'm not sure. You want to be drinking it? I mean, I got an eagle's butt. The truth is social feeds to people and then they can bet on it. What? I think- Yeah, right. He's selling faster access to his tweets, and then you can bet on it. Bet on what it's doing. On the markets. Because- Wait a minute. It's literally inside of trading. It's caches either. You bet on everything. You can fix. Yeah. Wait a minute. Is that real? You get access to a tweet before he makes it, and then you could bet on that tweet. How is that legal? Great question. When is Trump sued over true social advanced access sale? I'm on line in the Oval Office. Who is selling him? This is a good idea. Who's failing Donald Trump? I know. It couldn't be Trump himself. The corruption couldn't be coming directly from Trump. So if he hasn't been a scam artist for a fucking half century, who is- what is the incoming news that Joe Rogan was receiving? Listen. This clip is also a perfect example of a phenomenon that I need people to get their heads right about, which is people are like the left needs a Joe Rogan. And I'm like, guys, to be a Joe Rogan is not to be on the left end or right. To be a Joe Rogan is just to live in total blindness to the world. You sit at your computer, you get really high, you lift a lot of weights, and like you don't actually tap in to the news much, which is why they keep failing because they keep bringing up people who are of the left, but who are consumed by politics. I don't know a lot about politics from talking about it. And argue a lot about it. That's not what Joe Rogan does. Joe Rogan sits there like a, like a pure little baby just getting this information as it comes to him. And he's like, that news about Trump selling access to his truth social has been out there for weeks. And it's his big news. Rogan, bring a new information in. Top of drudge. Yeah. I would like to learn a little bit about Rogan's kind of media diet. I have a little bit less care on fire about like sometimes I feel like the rhetoric, the tech industry rhetoric can be a little bit overblown. It's like it's a comedian's podcast. Right. Totally. And I always felt this way about like the OVON, man. He was a guy. It's like, we have a mutual friend. And I said to him, I was like, we pass on to the O, maybe we can clip this now, you can send it to him. Like his back is hilarious. Like when he has on like an Amish kid, and he wants to ask the Amish kid what the life is like. It's an Amish team. Yeah. He's funny. He's funny. It's like the problem is when you have the vice president of the United States on. Because you don't know what's happening in the news. That's right. The vice president of the United States comes on and starts just fucking gaslighting you and lying to you. And you're like, oh, really? And like, you're fucking huge audience. Listen to that. Like, that's the problem. And like, that's like the Rogan. It's like, okay, like you're gonna talk about aliens. Great, that's fine. But it's like, if you're gonna talk about the news, if you're gonna go to the White House, like Rogan has done, multiple times, do free PR for Trump. You would think that you should at least like, I don't know, know what's happening. - No one is up to, do I like what he's doing? 'Cause actually every time Joe Rogan, as best I can tell, gets a new piece of information about what Donald Trump is doing in this administration. He's like, boy, that's really not good. I don't like that at all. You're like, yeah, man, Trump's bad. - Love it, does this thing where he's like, it's annoying that like the Democrats that don't have people have any agency in the world, like, it's terrible thing happens out there. And it's like, why aren't the Democrats doing something to resolve it, and that is a accurate critique. That said, we all do have agency in the world. And it's like, do you have any thoughts as a communication professional about like, like if Joe Rogan doesn't know that Trump is selling insider trading tips to Wall Street, I assume that lots of people don't know. Right, your focus group people don't know. - So like, what, have you thoughts on how to address that problem? - Yeah, this is where when people say we need a left-wing Joe Rogan, I'm like, no, what you have is a Joe Rogan who is an uninformed dude, but who likes to dabble in these political issues, right? And he basically wants to talk to people who will talk to him. Go talk to the Joe Rogan that exists, right? He clearly likes getting this new information. He takes these inputs. And so if I were who came Jefferies or-- - I don't think so. - Okay, fine. But I'm just, I mean, well, this is the problem, right? I mean, the problem then comes down to, do you have people that can go on Rogan? And I think this is where the Democratic Party does struggle a little bit. It's like, JD Vance, for, I find him, you know, repellent as a person talking, but lots of Democrats could say like, yo, Joe Rogan, I want to come on and talk to you about whatever. And think about how you go on, talk about aliens. Talk about the way that Donald Trump is betraying us. They keep saying they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna show us all the UFOs, why not? - That's just where the UFOs. I mean, just, just do that. And like Theo Vaughn is funny. And so this is why it's not just, I look, I think that Democrats do need to build their own communications infrastructure, the way that the right has, but I also think they need to avail themselves of the existing infrastructure that is not political. That's the key, the key is that it's not political. - I'm gonna do the positive first and then a critique. This is just another thing that Zora's good at. I had a big laugh this morning in the New York Times. So I actually just pulled this up 'cause it's, it's, it's funny enough to read it. Our friends in the New York Times, they sponsored the upsets, but sometimes we can make fun of them too. Heavens are the best of us. And the media business here it is. This is a headline in today's New York Times. Mom Donnie's bro culture in city hall, sports memes, nicknames. As much as Zora and Mom Donnie's team runs on leftist idealism and social media heads, it's style of governing also relies on humor and sports references. - And pop culture. - It's like, so they're guys. They're just, they're just three guys. - Sorry, not even guys, not even guys. I have multiple women run companies, me being the woman. And like. We can talk about sports and culture. - We also like sports and pop culture. We also give each other nicknames. - And it's like, so Mom Donnie can do this. He could go, he should, you know, he can go on these shows and he's fine, he's so great. And he's super talented, able to kind of mix it up, you know, get his universal healthcare and free grocery stores or whatever government on grocery stores mix that in and talk about other stuff. Like this is doable, but it is, I just think it's telling that it's like the fact that Mom Donnie can do it and then he has a staff that is fluent in all this stuff. The fact that that is like surprising enough to merit a story in the New York Times, I kind of tell you. - That is, that is telling it. But the other part of it is that they identify that specifically as broke culture as opposed to just culture. Like people, people like to tell jokes. They like to give each other nicknames. They like to treat each other like human beings. Razz each other a little bit. Have fun, you may have noticed this happens on the board by ask, they like, and so like, that's not broke culture. It is how normal people just engage with each other. And this is when you think about Democrats and their stiff talking points. And I think that the Thanksgiving thing now has been sort of done to death. But like, that sounds alien to people, right? That is somebody being like this thing that you love that you celebrate in culture, which is part of your vacation. Is that rare? When you see your family is like a bad thing and you should feel bad about it. That's just a weird thing to say where joking about sports and like liking comedians is just how people want to exist. Yeah, so that's part of it. Being able to do that, just being a part of the actual culture is part. Other is I, so they might be a little bit wanting. And I feel bad for the cops. I used to be a comms person. And it's kind of easy to sit here in the big, big chair and say what I'm about to say, I get that. Like, you get an organization. There's always reasons not to do stuff. I just feel like Trump is so bad. And there's so many opportunities. But like, I want some more stunts. Yeah. I want some more big stunts. And occasionally, I will say, this is not the first time I've offered this. And I think some of our, we're going to mail back later. Some of the negative feedback we've received sometimes is like, the Democrats will do a stunt and it will be bad. And then I'll complain about it. That's a risk of stunts, for sure. OK, like just because I like stunts, doesn't mean that every stunts a good stunt. OK, but like, I don't know. I do feel like there's something, there's like a limit on the creativity of how to get these stories about Trump's corruption to break through. Or I was, I don't want to pick on Seth Molting, you know, a good guy and I hope he wins. And it's primary against Markey. And I was talking to Bill about this yesterday. And I was, when we had lunch, and I was like, I want Seth Molting, like, almost chaining himself outside the ice facility in Massachusetts. Right. I want really dramatic gestures. And rather than, well, you were thinking of kind of the nitpicking within the party, like nitpicking, I went very over the top gestures going after Trump. I am still left a little wanting on that front, just kind of across the board, basically. Yeah, I think that, look, not to reference my book. I'm sorry that I am in the phase of, you know, as I say in my book, but it is true that a bunch of what's in my book is about communication, narrative dominance, the way that Trump practices narrative dominance, and the way that Democrats can go on offense to push back. And a lot of it, I think that because the line between a stunt and cringe is like a, you never know where you're crossing that one. But I do think that Democrats should spend a lot more time, even if it's just, be serious about it, but like, call a press conference. All right, you're in the middle of a contested election. The press will come, if you call a press conference, to say, I want to lead the charge against Max Miller, my colleague, Max Miller, who needs to go. He's a lousy guy, like pick up the mantle of something. Stand for something. It doesn't all have to be sort of performance art. I go back to my blue bunny idea. I like the blue bunny idea. That's one off of it. But like, think about, what are the things that you can do that harness people's attention? And they like, they don't, it's like they flounder in that space. The line between performance and cringe is thin. A little cringe isn't bad, though. I mean, this is something that Trump learned, right? Like, if your people like it, and the opponents are making fun of you, then more people are seeing it. Right. Because everybody's talking about it, right? And so, I think that that is like the advantage of like shooting more shots in this, right? Here's an example of the thin line between performance and cringe. This was a duel else I had a couple of weeks ago. It's a video trying to get people to send in their mail and ballots. And Fox was making fun of them for it yesterday. Oh, let's play a little clip. Here's the mail. It never fails. It makes me want to whack my tail when it comes. I want to. Well, no. So this is him doing a blue's clothes. Yeah. Yeah. A little cringe. But Fox is making fun of them. And it like, this works, right? I mean, A, this was a week ago, people were learning about the mail ballots. But also, it's like, I don't know, on the one hand, Fox wanted to call him a terrorist, a very scary Jihad. I think Trump called him a Jihadist in the lighthouse. And then like the next minute, Fox is showing a video of him like doing corny dad jokes. First of all, that is the most that I have liked at a little else ahead since I've become acquainted with him. Because most of what I've seen for him, right, is comes from the primary where he's like, crappin' on Hailey Stevens, who was like my, who I had a preference for. But I watch that and I'm like, I think he's adorable. First of all, he looks great in that shirt. He does. And second of all, he's always in that black V. Yeah, he does look nice on him. There's something about him he's doing like a civic action, which I love a good civic action. I love, right? That's the way you get to my heart, like telling people to send their ballots and he's taking a swing. It's funny, he's appealing to like, I'm a little old for blue's clues, but like, you know, it was a cultural thing, my younger siblings liked it. And so I think that that backfires on Fox, and that that is a good thing to do. Yeah, there's a lot of this with him in particular. And actually maybe I should kind of revise and extend my earlier point where some of my frustration on the failure on the performance side is like with my, our people, like the center left Democrats, like the established Democrats because. The left candidates, at least a handful of them, are pretty good at it. I could imagine so on, in which I'd do all, so that's a more cheesy version of it. But his really passionate arguments, going after money in politics, going after what's happening in the Middle East, going after the healthcare executives, are like, the actual policies are probably not exactly what you and I would want, but he's defining a clear foul, and you can tell he's passionate about it. It resonates with what democratic voters are, and then it creates this response, I think it's so funny, from the right, where they are like, calling him names, they're like, "Oh, I have to also hate Israel so much," and I'm like, this is a little bit reminiscent of me, of the mistakes we made, as like in the Jeb campaign, and everybody campaign, Marcos, Scott Walker, where we were like, "Trump is a racist with his Muslim ban," and it's like, "Well, that was true," but was that a good message, just looking at the strategy wise, not morality wise, because that means the voters heard about it more. And the voters, the Republican voters were like, "Hell yeah," and in this case, whether it be whatever, single-payer healthcare, less money in weapons for Israel, etc, it's kind of like, they're like, they're calling them a socialist, they're calling them anti-Israel, it's like, I think this is helping him, actually, I think that there's like a Trump element to that, it's a reverse, like Trump is in the Jeb shoes, and so else I had is in the Trump shoes, that, you know, I guess I'm not comparing them at a moral level, but just from like their role in the discourse, and it's like, they didn't learn what worked for themselves from the megaside. And this is where, look, if what voters learn about you, as you are getting your profile raised, is that your anti-thanksgiving, and I got to tell you, people give me like Sarah stop talking about that, but I'm telling you, that is the thing that did her in, right, with voters, but they're like, well, that's too weird. But so that's one example, we're like, not all press is good, right? Sure. If it's too far out there. But the fact is, there are a lot of Republicans that are anti-Israel right now. There are a lot of people that will suddenly go, "Oh, I'm interested in you." No, you don't want us to get in this stupid war. That's right. This is, in part, there's a different game of foot now, which is about just the attention economy overall. And it can work for you or against you, but I do think you're right that there's a bunch of these issues that are broadly more popular than the Republican establishment thinks they are. Yeah. Kinsinger yesterday, right here, sitting at the chair you were in, was saying he's getting socialist healthcare curious. So am I. Not so. But I do think. I think that there is, I don't go into like a whole policy thing, but if you ask me one of the main things that I have shifted on, I think that, look, presidents, there's not that much they can do to like lower inflation, like these are big economic forces. I think that we are at a point where healthcare is so complicated, and I think that there is a grand bargain somewhere between securing the border and offering every American when they are born comes into a healthcare plan. And you can purchase additional services as you need them or additional layers, but that a basic access to healthcare is both where we should be going as a country. And I think where we are going, US voters abroad. Questions? Don't delay. Votefromabroad.org. Right. I promise you we'll mail back. Let's do it. But before we get to the moment, why don't we play a duel one more time? Here's the mail, it never fails and makes me want to whack my tail when it comes I want a well mail mail. We have a lot of actual emails that I got. I did use the best one yesterday thanks to Tyler who about his explosive diarrhea. I felt like that was more appropriate for choosing a I'm going to get to specific mail back questions. But there's a more general piece of feedback that we got from the next level that was everywhere in my inbox on reddit and comments that I want to address first before I get to the specific mail questions. And that was this question about woke one so crazy and a little behind the curtain here. I do a lot of prep for this show. You do a lot of prep for the illegal news and for the focus group. You know, sometimes we're just kind of shooting from that. We are. It's just like, hey, like whatever, what are the topics to that? Like let's spit ball. We're hanging. We're friends. It's what you guys like it. Like the negative side of that is like sometimes, you know, I'm giving opinions that are more secret podcast rules. Right. They're not fully, fully formed. And so I just wanted to revisit the woke thing for a second because there were a lot of people that were like, why are Tim and Sarah so mad about woke one? Like it wasn't that big of a deal like so people said the tanks, whatever. Who cares? Who was hurt by that? And I hear that. And so I wanted to kind of explain myself, but do you want to go first or do I mean to? Well, why don't you go first? Yeah. As I think we feel pretty similar. Yeah. Here's a view about this. And for people who do really care about this, I've now had ton of housey coats on the pod three times. And at each time, we've done woke one revisited as part of the conversations. So I think you could learn a little bit more about my kind of quibbles with it from those conversations. But just to sum it up, I think that there are some really good parts of it. I think that the idea that we should have more visibility for different marginalized groups is like, yeah, like obviously, which shouldn't just be like fucking white ballerinas in the store and having different characters that more reflect the full country and kids books, like all this sort of stuff. In C-sweets, it's like I kind of think we're not even really there. Like some of the DEI stuff in office and HR stuff is stupid, but like, I laugh at like the tech guys that are like, woke is so stupid, like we're past racism. And I'm like, okay, well, then why is every CEO of a tech company, a white guy or an Indian guy? Like literally. So, you know, there is, I think, good progress that could be made both when it comes to race and gender. I also, like, as somebody who was long time kind of an ACA camp on cops, I was never a big cop guy. I was one of the libertarian on the Republican side. I think a revisiting of the relationship between the police and the populace is also positive that that got overboard. Here's my, like, here's my main issue with it. I just think that fundamentally, like, I'm a moderate, balanced in all things. And I think that when it comes to identity, tyrannism and identity politics, like making everything about that, like making it the central part of assessing every person's character, every decision that is made in an organization is like pernicious and is not how our society should be. Like, I don't want to, like, we're going to, like, whatever people are in cringe and this is corny. But like, the idea that people should be judged by the content of their character is like fundamental to the country. And that does not mean that we shouldn't, like, address structural racism and all that. Like, if we move away from that framework, where we're not judging people by the content of the character, it becomes problems. And I still see that this day, like people, like throwing around things like attacking, like I saw this in Twitter just this week, somebody was like, I don't want to hear about a white woman thinks about that. And like, it's like, that's a bad thing to say. I get a lot of, I get a lot of white woman. Yeah. I'm sorry. And you cannot use white woman as a pejorative. Like, that's not okay. It would, it would not be okay if you said, you know, I don't want to hear what a gay has to say or what if I can Asian person has to say you know, that one from the right. Yeah, sure. Like, that's just not okay. Like, that is not in the spirit of liberalism. And, and it has a negative impact on society. It also creates a backlash, you know, like it also strategically stupid. I was always like, okay, you want identity politics? Well, that's interesting. We'll see how you like white identity politics. And we've seen that. Yeah. I think so. I think it's morally wrong and strategically wrong. And the last thing I'll say is, all that is a little bit up in this cloud, esoteric cultural and that is not a substantive harm like we've seen for Trump's policies and there's nothing to compare all of this. Obviously, it's like we're doing this and I, you know, I think that's why we started an entire media company devoted to trying to go right away toward tyrannism. But like, they're also word tangible issues. Like crime did skyrocket during the period. And part of that was COVID, but part of that was like the changes in policing and prosecuting and like, there were victims of those crimes. Like that's just true. Like that, that, that's a real consequence. The school stuff, we can all debate, COVID was hard, I know JVL, it's like, doesn't like when we do this, but like, kids not going to school for a year when, for no reason was bad. That's just bad. And I lived in Oakland at the time of California, so maybe I was more into this and like the example I gave on TNL was kind of stupid. But like a more serious example is like people in our community that I was friends with that were not as well off, who like have both parents working or have single parents and they work. Like, what were their kids doing? You know, like rich people's kids, like, they paid like a nanny or somebody to come to their house and like sit with them on their class computer while the parent did their laptop job. Like, that wasn't possible. for regular people. So that's like my answer. I think that to not acknowledge that there were real harms is bad and to not acknowledge that just like fundamentally it's illiberal to be so extreme on identitarianism is also I think not acknowledging reality. I agree with all that but I'm going to take a I'm going to talk about some different things because one of the things that I think happens is that we all have a kind of survivors bias that I and I don't mean like we all lived through but I mean we've all like we only remember the things that really bothered us and we've let a lot of the things go that perhaps were the excesses of our side. And so I think when people look back at COVID a lot of people don't maybe realize or remember but if you think about it for one second you'll be like too many businesses went under during COVID like a lot of people lost their livelihoods. Now it was a once in a generation pandemic and I think that like the attacks on Fauci and all this R&C everybody was trying to do their best but every there's also bad stuff in the right this one was really quick like more people died in Florida after the vaccines because they didn't do vaccination stuff and like those are lives lost so like that so that's true. And so I mean part of part of this I think my overall point is that like grace sort of needs to be extended across the board at some of these times when it was really difficult but there are certain flashpoints that I that come up over and over again from voters where they decided that they hated the left on COVID like the backlash and it was things like during the Black Lives Matter protests all the scientists who were telling them they had to stay in their houses suddenly gave a dispensation to go protest. That broke a level of trust with a lot of people between them and sort of the scientific community. And that's why I ended to woke because like that was the point. That's right. That's because it was you know people felt like during that period that they had to make these kind of racial identitarian concerns like prime. But rather than that one thing to be concerned about amidst. So if you if you've lost your business or you couldn't go visit your your dying parent in a in their in their home their sort of out you know their elder care facility things like that like the level of anger and this is the thing that I lived through I remember being in my basement doing focus group after focus group after focus group going to like during the pandemic and the pain that I heard across the board from people who were being robbed of like every milestone of life whose parents died and they couldn't go to their funeral whatever and look I think and I think part of what people were frustrated by so so there's the scientific community. But then one of the reasons that I think Gavin Newsom will never be president is because people don't talk about it anymore but they will if he runs which is him going to the French laundry and eating with his friends while everybody else was being told they couldn't go anywhere like it is those kinds of things that I think really did and Mark Marin has this great set around how like we are annoying people into fascism which goes to this sort of flash effect and the the strategic part of it which is and and I think that on every spectrum right so when you think about woke you you laid this out so I don't need to relitigate it but there's like this part of the spectrum that is like the good-hearted part the part where people's intentions are both pure and righteous and in a the right place for humanity and then there's the excesses right where it goes too far right the idea of we need a police department or we need police departments that are more that are shooting people you know in the streets or whatever they're better trained or whatever versus defunding the police. Do you know who the main people against defunding the police are black people and dangerous. They thought that was insane right and so like those excesses created a backlash that I think allowed Trump to come back and so I think to me there were a lot of harbs done I don't like dismissing it just as like oh people are annoyed that there's like a barista with a nose ring in Starbucks and they then pronounce whatever. U.S. voters abroad have you got your ballot yet? All states are now sending ballots to overseas voters so if you want to vote this year you should request your ballot right away go to vote from abroad.org and click request my ballot as to receive it by email questions ask our support team directly don't miss this chance to shape the future don't delay vote from abroad.org to the mail back question this one is from anonymous and they say growing up my dad's conservatism largely shaped my politics while my mom was the democrat who tried her best to expose us to her values now that my views have changed how do I reconcile who I was politically with who I am now without feeling ashamed of my past oh buddy don't feel ashamed you know I think sometimes people think that it is a mark of a bad character or something to change your mind it is not it is a mark of good character oftentimes people think of something like regret as a negative emotion but regret is a positive emotion because it is you saying this thing from before was wrong and I've re-evaluated it in like of new information taking in new information and changing your your mind like that's what we did we were like no Trump like this is a bad thing and re-evaluating things in light of new information is a sign of intelligence not something you have to be ashamed of for yourself of this baby I'll give you one little therapy note this was useful from when I was in therapy shout out to dr. sharp um he told me that uh do you know the difference between guilt and shame uh no according to dr. sharp I don't know I guess I've never actually really like looked into the psychological literature basically summed it up as like guilt means you feel bad that you did something bad and shame means you feel like you are bad okay yeah sure and so like shame is is an emotion that you should work through in therapy because uh because you know assuming that I assume this person to the type person that would send this email is not somebody that is fundamentally bad right right so yeah guilt is something that everybody deals with um about a bunch of things and of all the things to feel guilty about the fact that before Donald Trump you have different political views that you do now or different values is not one to feel guilty about so or shame of course so anyway for yourself anonymous it's great growth is great this is something that I really value in people yeah like I I connect in resident with people who don't get stuck in their ways you know me to and whenever somebody says like I have no regrets I understand that they meant they're meaning to be like look I'm wheels off and where I actually think it is so weird if you have no regrets it means that you have never reevaluated a thing in your life I'm gonna get it wrong there's like an avid brother's lyric that was like something the effect of I want friends that love me for the man that I've become not the man that I was yeah I think that's fine yeah always be with me yeah so that's good all right more male okay I asked these questions to Jane coasten um about cricket being the universe okay so we're gonna turn this on to you or us we'll see if I win a win it's from Sarah in Portland which board podcasters most likely to run for office and win run for office and lose most likely to appear at event wearing sunglasses at night and showing off their biceps or something of duels I'll say I dead board podcaster most likely to be appointed to serve the next democratic yes democratic administration uh am I the answer to all of these oh I think definitely most likely to run for office and lose if you yeah that's right uh who has bicep oh you know what will summer has biceps sneaky fit he is he was in a t-shirt yesterday when you're driving around town for a video that's coming out next week what you people are gonna like and I was like will summer he's got big guns uh so I think if you put sunglasses on him and showing off his biceps yeah that's a good pick but that could also be you wearing sunglasses at night showing off my biceps I don't know about that what do you know most likely to serve the next administration I think is bill I think bill deserves to be the ambassador to something uh the undersecretary of something yeah to like Barbados or I don't somewhere yeah not not in the department of war but give bill crystal his flowers and let him be have a a latent life ambassador ship um but wait who do you think is the podcaster most likely to run for office and win is this you are you any of these no I don't pick so I don't I'm much more likely to kind of force Tyler to lose to run for office is a stalking horse for me then I want to actually run for myself um run for office and win do we have any do we have any winners around the office uh I mean we got a lot of great folks yeah um but you know maybe I don't know that many of us have the right temperament I don't have the right profile I'd like no I have please no the video editor Rupert yeah Rupert isn't a cheery guy he is a cheery guy isn't Arkansas though it's not gonna be a good match maybe like mayor as much as I like that some of these sort of never trumpers are going and running as democrats for office I'm not sure that I think that's a real viable lane long term while we mentioned bill crystal want to go to one of my favorite emails uh this was from juso just a cool name juso says this I remember hearing Sarah say the bill crystal likes to bumble around the office with his shoes off in his socks WTF is that about some sort of eccentric Powerplay. Didn't the old guy in Mad Men do the same? him. He did. He has loved Bill. First of all, I love Bill with like the heat of a thousand sons, okay? But he does, and he's wonderful, but he's in the office, and now that you're in the office, you see, right? He like, he does sort of walk around, and he grabs the young guys, and he's like, when he would not work in here, you know, whatever he does that. But sometimes he does take off his shoes. He equals, he will sit and tweak. He'll take off his shoes, and then he'll get up and do his walk around thing. He's like the mayor of the office, and the young guys love it. But he wears bombas socks. He doesn't do it all the time, but every now and then, when he's just getting comfy cozy, he'll walk around his bombas and chat. Bill is working hard. I mean, God love Bill. Like, if I had to rank what should I do at our next all-staff meeting, based on my perception, the people who are working the hardest here, like, Bill wouldn't be number one. Like, we've got some 24-year-olds that were really kind of cracking the whip on. But like, he would be in the top six, I think. I mean, he gets up early in the morning, and he's more hot and teases people on the slack. The sex thing I'm fine with, some of the people might find that weird. I think it's great. I don't think it's an eccentric problem. I think it's just Bill being Bill. To this, I did something the other day, and I was worried about his minor notable in New Orleans, which is Toulouse and I were walking around barefoot in our neighborhood. And then we got like. Like, I'm concrete? Yeah. Okay. I don't sometimes like to be barefoot. And then she got the notion that we should go get a treat. But then I was teaching about no shoes, no shirt, no service. But she was like, out of it that we get the treat. So I did, we did walk into a store in our neighborhood barefoot, and I did get spotted. But somebody like immediately, somebody was like, "Love the podcast." Not spotted by somebody who was like, "Hey, put on your shoes and get out of the store." No, I got spotted being stupid. I don't just go like, I don't even know what Bill, it's just everybody be themselves. Okay. What's next? "Hi, Tim, remember, screening these. Tim is screening these in this case because producer answers on vacation." Your friendship with Sarah and that was standing. Is there any truths of the stereotype that gay men and lesbians don't get along? If so, what do you think the reason is best Jessica? Great question. Here's the thing. Take all of the things you know about women, then take all of the things you know about men. And then there's this like bend diagram of overlap where like men and women come together to share a bunch of things, not the least of which is like they make babies together and their nature has suited them towards each other. Gay men and gay women have none of that. We are not, we are not drawn together by biological necessity in any way, which I think takes away some of the imperative of getting along. And so, culturally, we often don't share a lot of affinities. That being said, gay men and lesbians are also just people. And so, oftentimes, you know, people decide they like each other and it can be a solidarity piece. Yeah. This is what I was going to say. I think gay men and lesbians might be coming back together again. I think we might be having a moment right now. And here's why. I always just to say that, and this is true, the gay men and straight women are natural allies. Right. Like in nature, like they are natural allies. And I think straight men and lesbians are often natural allies. Okay. Here's the problem though. Like I said earlier, about woke one, everything in moderation. Right. The straight women have gotten a little too into it to us. And they've taken over our bars like locusts. And you know, sometimes gay men want to be in a gay bar with other gays. That's the point. Sure. You know, we have there's a big gay party or it's actually a straight gay party called Red Dress Round in New Orleans, those last weekend. And it was like, the gay bar was like half wimpin. And there was a woman that lit a straight woman literally came into the gay bar and looked at all of us in our red dresses, me and my friends. And like pointed at us and said, do a circle. You guys are looking so cute. I'm like, get out of here. Yeah. And I think the revolution against the straight women overstepping into our spaces is kind of giving us a new appreciation for the lesbians. It would never do that to us. We don't want to be there. And we don't want to be in a red dress. I know. And so it's kind of like, I do feel like maybe as queer spaces are starting to dissipate. It's like, maybe we might be coming back together now in community with one another. That's a very interesting take. I will say, I never go to lesbian bars anymore, which is why lesbian bars don't survive. By the way, it's because women, the second, they're sort of like, Oh, now we're together forever. And we're going to have kids and we're never going out again. But I went, this is probably still a couple of years ago. And I was like, there's all these straight couples in here. Like it was like men with their braided belts, like with their girlfriends. And I was like, where did they all come from? And everybody's like, Oh, well, this is now everybody's so accepting or whatever that too much allyship. Yeah. I'm like, but there is a good Jillian bars on 18th Street where all the straight young people can go. Why just, I just let all the lesbians be here. Get out of here. Okay. We're just kind of veering. I'm drunk driving all over the cars between fun questions and serious questions. Here's Jordan. This is what happens with producer Andy Scott. Probably could have organized these like serious to silly. But we're just, you know, we're just going to be a five year shift here. Hello, from Southern Oregon. What happens to ice when Trump lose the house in Senate or 2028? I assume abolishing ice isn't realistic or ultimately desirable. What do you think about that? So this goes back to our woke conversation a little bit where some, one of the problems, I think sometimes with the excess is that you get to the excess part too early before people are ready. And then it diminishes the opportunity when that thing is really necessary. Because I actually think that when a Democrat, God willing wins in 2028, one of the things they should do is probably dismantle ice and reimagine our border security. I think abolish ice in the early days led to some of the kind of backlash it was seen as an overreach. But at this point, a culture of an agency that has mass agents in the streets where there's been no accountability, I do think it is one of the agencies that has to be totally revamped. Let's say we did our critiques with the wokes earlier. Shout out to wokes and woke one abolish ice. Correct. Absolutely. Correct. They should abolish ice. This is the easiest one. Actually, there's so many tough challenges. It's like, I started during the W administration, like this is not a necessary organization. Security is like brand new. We can have border patrol, do border patrol and fund border patrol. We can through all the other federal law enforcement agencies do any necessary interior enforcement of violent criminals. And everybody else, if you're here legally, we can have INS take care of you. There's a whole agency called that INS. They can send you a letter. Limited government guys. I know INS can send you a letter. It's like, sorry, you've overstayed your visa. You need to go home. If they're not, if in six months you haven't gone home, they can knock on your door. Say, sorry, you really have to go home. If they don't go, you know, then the third time, they're just humane ways to deal with this. If these people aren't violent criminals, we do not need fucking ice, all right? Abolish ice. Yeah. US voters abroad. Go to vote from abroad.org and click, request my ballot, ask to receive it by email, questions, ask our support team directly. Don't delay. Vote from abroad.org. So do your kids go what you do in any way? What do they think? Or do they just kind of know you're a podcaster? I always enjoy you guys, Karen. I think my kids know that I don't like Donald Trump. And they also know that people recognize me places. And they find that odd, right? That people just come up to you. That's interesting. It doesn't care about that at all. It happens, but it doesn't seem like it even registers in a rain as unusual or something she has to reflect on in any way. Well, that's it. So my kids, like my kids have belatedly come to realize, and I think part of it is I take my kids to the No Kings protests. And not the sort of ones downtown, but kind of the ones up here where it's not older people. So a lot of people say things to my kids, like, do you know that your mom does? Like it's really great. It is really sweet. And so they are at an age now where they understand they seem to be like, they don't know what they're proud of, but they're proud that people seem to think that what we do is nice. That's cute. Yeah. No, to us knows that I hate Trump and did with my dad and the car. Resolute was like, and I was like, whoa, whoa. Okay. So, you know, maybe overcracketed on that one a little bit. But kids are going to be kids, but she doesn't, I don't think really I get up beyond that. It was really funny. She told me, you know, we're at the phase where you have a different thing that you want to be when you grow up every week. Sure. And recently to Tyler Shagrin, she was watching when I was in charge, when there are less rules around the screens, some streamers who do video games, but like for kids, like kids games, streamers. And she was like, I want to be a YouTuber. I want to be a streamer. And I was like, oh, you mean like me? And she was like, no, like not like that. Video games, the kids YouTube. She almost thinks there's two different YouTubes, even like I'm on some other YouTube for boring people. And like she wants to be a YouTuber on the cool YouTube. So. Anyway, all right, I'm a 17-year-old who closely follows politics. That means I was born during Obama's first term and really only started following the news during Biden's term. Sometimes I feel like I like historical context from before, do you have any recommendations or things to read, watch, listen to. I'd love to get an understanding of the last 20 to 50 years that is deeper from when I get in school, love the podcast, and other content across the bulwark, bring back FYPod, Luke. - Oh, Luke, it's a 17-year-old, listen to it. - Shout out, Luke. Give him some stuff. We've grownups, I think, that decent number of people decided that they should start caring about politics either in 2016 or 2024. So I think this is useful for even our non-judge listeners. - Look, if you haven't, young men, go watch idiocracy because that was meant as a joke, like that was a comedy with some slight cultural commentary, but I think if my judge had realized he was making a documentary about 2024, but actually, the one thing I wanted to comment on is, is I want more than what I'm learning in school. I don't know what they're giving you in school, but I am begging you, actually, all people. Go read the Federalist Papers, go read the Constitution, like go read Martin Luther King's, I have a dream speech, go literally read letters from Birmingham, there's a bunch of, if you have foundational texts that seem to have been lost to history. - Those are the ones probably people read, but the Federalist Papers is a good one. I was gonna do more modern politics. - Okay. - Our guy, John Helmins, book on the 2018 campaign game change. - Yeah, so good. - Unbelievable, or you could just watch the movie. You go back to the 1984, if you want to really learn out, what it takes, it's probably the best political book ever written about the 1984, it's unbelievable. It's really good, Richard Ben Kramer. - Oh, now you're getting me going. The face in the crowd is a great movie that you should go watch. Sorry, I can't go. - Yeah, no, that's okay. Our guy, Mark Lieber, which is this town. - This town is so good. - It is really kind of a time capsule of the pre-Trump DC Excesses, which I really loved. Well, the one that came to mind, I was gonna say this because it's fake, but it's Bill Clinton, and it's just such a good movie. Primary colors was so good. - So primary colors was the best. What a good movie, man. What's his name from Landman? - Billy Bob Thornton. - Great job Thornton. Great turn by Billy Bob Thornton as the rage and cage in there. Primary colors is an excellent movie. I've watched it over and over again, over the years. - We are very long. So we're gonna skip through the Tim questions. We'll do a Tim bonus Tim mailbag later. I will do two more, okay? Here we go. One is a music one. We've already been talking about our kids in the car. What's a family car ride like? Who controls the tunes? Do we have the same musical taste? Do the kids get to pick? Are they introducing us to Artists or vice versa? It's your car ride like. I kept this one 'cause I don't know if it's like a belong-well family car. - I will say we listen to a lot of Imagine Dragons, which is the boys, although recently my younger one, I got them at least into Zach Brown a little bit. And so we're on Zach Brown. The other thing I introduced them to is Newsies. And then I took them to see Oliver when we were in London because I see boys singing and dancing. My goal for them. I used to think I would want kids that were athletes, but what I really want is musical theater kids. - So Gays. - Just know you wanna get. - Whatever, that part doesn't matter to me. I just want to add. - I saw a stab the other day. It was like with the gayest and straightest majors. - Yeah. - And it was like business was like 98% straight and musical theater was 27% straight. - Yeah, that's it. But I want them to, 'cause my kid now like wears like the little Newsies like paper boy hat. It's amazing. - One of my proudest parenting moments is that we had a complete ban on kids' bops. She doesn't even know that kids' bops exist. We succeeded in that front. So we just listen to pop music mostly, you know, and I'll put on this stuff. She does like Oasis, but she's requesting like Olivia Rodrigo as a new record. And she likes Keshav's record, which has a lot of, which has some cusses. - Oh no. - She was singing, this is my second dad car story, which is so weird. She was singing, she also sang one of the Olivia songs that has cusses in it, and she was singing the lyrics with my dad, the car, and the backseat the other day. - Did Papa get mad? - No, it was just, you know, he's trying to play it cool. You know, it's a different childhood than mine. My parents were keeping a pretty tight leash on my, on my incoming. - Mine too, really tight leash. Whereas, you know, Zach Brown got my toes in the water, my ass in the sand is a favorite line. - Kids like that. - For the kid to say ass in the sand. Final questions for you. Anonymous Kenyan alum. I had the great fortune to argue with Sarah Longwell in quest for justice every day, my freshman year at Kenyan. I thought she was deeply thoughtful. And I have always held her in high regard. I wanna know what books, especially novels, have been meaningful to Sarah since we left Gambier or if any books we had to read at Kenyan still sticks with her. They made us read things fall apart in so many classes, that's a great one. - She knew that she'll play. - Yeah, but I still think about it. What books do you return to or find yourself thinking about we love you all? - So, this thank you. Hey, hey, quest for justice. - What was that? - So that was our freshman. So, you know, I went to Kenyan, thinking I was gonna be an English major 'cause I wanted to be a poet when I grew up. Little note fact, and I took quest for justice, which is like the intro to political science class, had the most incredible professor named Pam Jensen. And I became a political science major. And so I could change my life. And the things that I read in quest for justice, there's a couple of things. One of them was the Federalist Papers. Like it was a close, it's like one of the early things. - So this was a class or I could club? - It was a class. It was like a year-long entry to what political science would be. And it turned a lot of us into political science majors. This person from this class, I don't know if this person also stayed a political science major. But we did read Genoa Chabby's things fall apart, read the Federalist Papers. Do you know what, actually I remember from quest, was we read Francis Fukuyama's end of history, and now I know Francis Fukuyama. Like he's like in our world of democracy people. But that had. - Much more lying, that's it. But we read it, it still holds up. - You have to read it again. - It still holds up, actually. - This is where. - The headline's bad. - The headline is bad. But if you read the whole thing, it actually is like incredibly prescient and awful. - It's kind of like Mitt Romney's op-ed Let Detroit Go Bankrupt. There was some good points in that. The headline was not good. - The headline was not good. - The headline's important. - Any other readings? - I'll tell you, I just read the correspondent. If anybody, this is just, now I'm just gonna throw out fiction that I like. The correspondent is wonderful. If you haven't read it, I'm also reading "Stoner" right now by John Williams, which I'm loving. This is a dorky one. But if you haven't read "History of the Peloponnesian War" by Thucydides, that one was. - Thucydides? - Okay, go read some Thucydides. - Thucydides? - We'll give you some things to think about in terms of modern foreign policy. - Thucydides' trap has held up, compared to the end of history. Speaking of books, how to eat an elephant? - One voter at a time. - It's right there. I'm number three in the acknowledgments. - I'm number three in the acknowledgments. - Number three, which was pretty important to me. - Yes. - It was outside the top five. We were bumping you from our current bike today on the podcast. - Sure. - I'm glad I'm in there. People should go pre-order the book. - They should go pre-order the book. It's coming out soon. And we're gonna be at sixth and I on September 3rd. And then we're gonna be JVL and I are gonna be at New York, what is it, 92nd Street Y in New York? And there's still some room left in the balcony. - Maybe I'll come. All right, everybody, it's on Monday. I'll be back in New Orleans. And we'll see you all then. Thanks for doing this, Sarah. - You bet. Good to see you, Tim. ♪ I wanna have friends ♪ ♪ That I can trust ♪ ♪ That loved me for the man I've become ♪ ♪ Not the man that I was ♪ The Bullwork Daily is brought to you. Thanks for the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Anzaly Skipper, and with video editing by Don.