Sarah J Maas: The Wait Is Over

(swoosh) (upbeat music) - What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy daddy daddy daddy daddy daddy. - Sarah J. Mass, welcome to call her daddy. - Oh, thank you. So excited to be here. - This is like, I have never had more people asking me. Okay, so like, if I buy my own plane ticket, could I just fly in and like sit in the corner and just like maybe meet her and like stop it guys? - No, never had more people. - Same, same with you, my friends who like don't give a shit. Like what I do for a living suddenly, they hear I'm coming here and they're like, oh, like I could be your assistant for the day and like have I told you how much I love you? And I'm like, I wish you guys could come, but at the same time, no, no. We're like merging our two worlds. - You've made me cool to my friends who usually only see me in my like ugly casual clothes. - That's our dress code, ugly casual. - I am honored that you're here. I also wanna give everyone watching the, I just wanna say, spoilers could happen in this episode. If you haven't read all of the series, so I would just be where don't come from me on social media. If we talk about things that you're like, what do you mean? Like just prepare yourself. - You guys have had plenty of time. - Okay. - Sorry. - Plenty of time. - Very true. Okay, you are the best selling author of thrown-of-glass Crescent City and the Ackatar series. You've broken publishing records. You have sold over 75 million copies of your books. And I am such a huge fan. And I'm so excited to sit down with you today. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Welcome to Los Angeles. - Thank you. - What are you in LA for? - I'm only here to be with you. You're the only reason that I would actually come to Los Angeles. - Do you come here often? You're like, no. - No. - No. - We don't like LA. - But you know, we used to live here. So of course, I don't like LA. But like, I mean, you're just here for this. - Or I'm here just for you, my- - I'm just for you, Alex. - I am honored. - Only for you would I drag myself across the continent. - Thank you. - Thank you. Okay, if you are on a plane, can you ever work on a draft or it's like way too risky? - I'm on deadline right now, actually, working on something. - Okay. - But I had to work. - Okay. - I had to work. And then the worst thing was, is that like my husband who was supposed to be helping with the kids just takes a nap. So you're writing and you're holding children. - And the kids are like, "Mommy, like, can you get me a new sparkling water?" Like, "Mommy, my iPad turned off." And like, Josh is just there, like snoring. The dogs like sleeping next to him. And I'm like, what is this? What, I was about to throw a bucket of water on the camera. - This is why my fans are mad at me guys. Okay, I need to lock in the focus. - Yeah, I was like, there is like, we need to like get this going. There's no time for naps, for spouse naps anymore. - Oh, yeah. I feel like you're also known for your writing playlists. What have you been currently listening to for inspiration? - Weirdly, like weirdly enough. Like, I heard the soundtrack to that, the Rob Pattinson, like the Batman thing. And like, there was like certain like pieces in that that just like spoke to me. And like, yeah, so that was like kind of like the current thing. But then like, I mean, it's not really like inspiration, but like K-pop demon hunters. I'm still playing that non-stop in my house. And like even my seven year old son has been like, okay, like we're kind of over that. And I'm like, we are never over this movie. We are never over the soundtrack. - Wait, that's when you know you've lost it where your kids are like, can we stop mom? And you're like, no. - I'm like pre-gaming in the shower, like listening. - You're like, babe, we need to calm down. - Yes, like I bought the vinyl record. - Oh, you're in it, Sarah. - Yeah, and I play it. When my kids are at school, I put it on. And I play it on repeat to the point where my house keeps her things up, having like a mental breakdown. - Yeah. - And the kids aren't there, so you really know you're in love. - No, look, it's my jam. - Okay, can you tell us like, what is your ideal writing setup? - I'm not like a fancy writer. Like I don't write publicly. Like I don't wanna be in a cafe, 'cause like I like get very into my stuff. So like I'll be crying. Like to feel what my characters feel. I have to like emotionally connect with them. So if it's like a devastating scene or just like a very emotional scene, like I will be sobbing. - Oh my God. - Yeah, like my husband has like walked in to like my bedroom where I actually write in my bedroom. And he's like, see me just like weeping. And he just like quietly closes the door. He's like, yeah, we're not. - Like a normal husband will be like, "Babe, are you okay?" And he's like, got it. We're on the big chapter. - Yeah, look, here's me like blasting like my, like you know, classical music movie scores and I'm weeping, sobbing, like typing as fast as I can. And he's like, okay, yeah, yeah. - So the bedroom. - Yeah, so like I just have a desk in my bedroom. Like I don't know, like they say don't work. And you're like, where are you sleep? But like I don't know, it's like a cozy, happy space for me. - For me. - Like when I'm in an office, I'm just kind of like, I don't know, it's not like my vibe. - Yeah. - Like I used to want to have like my own office. But now I just like, I like to have my own little like tiny cozy space. And like I keep a very tidy desk. But it's like covered with like crystals and like ridiculous things. - Not really. - Like, I have a La Boo Boo sitting in like a little like sun chair with like sunglasses on. Like he's, it's, it's good. - It's good vibes. - It is good. I like, I only, things that bring me joy. That's what I put on my desk when I keep it very tidy. But then of course, I have like three coasters on my desk for like one for water, one for like a latte and one for a diet coke. And they always need to be like constantly filled. - That's the reason. - And then like space for cheetos, which is the worst possible food to eat when you write. - You're like, I know. Are you like a, I'm coffee or a crunchy? - I'm the flaming hot. - I've never had one. I'm scared. - I'm scary that I'm like, I like my husband's always like, why? And I'm like, I like it to burn. - Do you like spicy things in general? - Yes. - I do. - Okay. Now I kind of want to try one. - You need to try one of these tasks. Tell me what it was like. - But like, is it like, like, like, like full? - It's a little bit like full, but like, I, it like, it's like filling this up. But it's like good. Like, I like the burn. Like it's okay. Like eating them. And I love the little thin ones. And I just like, kind of take it. And I'm editing. It's a vibe. I also was curious like, when if you do go out in public and you do ever see fans, like, what is the most common thing that people ask you when they run into you? - People usually don't like ask me things. It's more like, they just want to express like, what the books have meant to them. So usually that makes me cry. But I'm also like, such a nerd. Like if I see someone in public reading my books, like I go up and say hi to them. Cause like, I want to say thank you to them. Cause like, all these beautiful blessings I have in my life, the fact that I can like, do this for a living is because of people reading. So like, how can I not at least just like go up and be like, I just want to say like, thank you. But then like when I do that, like they, I think they don't believe me initially. Cause again, normal Sarah covered in Cheeto dust. Like I look like, unwell on a daily basis. So they're like, I don't think that's actually her. And then I'm like, no, it's me. Like look, I've got the test. Like a psych of being like, I think three of my books are like, who is that? Yeah. And so like Google you like, I think that was her. But then I feel like weird. Like sometimes like, I'll like, if I see someone reading, like, especially the Avatar books and like, I'll interrupt them. I'm like, what, like, what party are you reading right now? Like, and is that like, is that like your mom like, walking in on you like when you're like, watching porn or something? Is that like a weird thing? I've no one's ever told me that. Like I've never like, it is, I cannot imagine if I was reading and I looked up and it was you. I've had a weird for you if I was that would make it ten times better. If it was like a super smudgy way. Wouldn't care because you wrote it. It makes you feel like I wouldn't like be like weird for like. No, I feel like I've walked into moments where someone was listening to one of my episodes that was like a more sexual one. And they're like, I'm listening to you right now. And I do the same thing where I'm like, which one? And then it's like a bonding moment. And it's between the girlies. Yes. Okay. There are obviously so many celebrities who absolutely love you and your books, which celebrity fan has left you the most dark rock? I mean, I respect like so many of these like women especially. So like, like Margot Robbie's like become, she's got like Margot's become like one of my friends. And like I love so like meeting her. I just like, you know, she was coming off the heels of like Barbie when we first met. I just like, it was amazing. When she and I like first met up like we were at like a coffee shop in New York and it was just, it was really, really moving and inspiring to see how many young women came up to her. Like not for a picture, not for anything just to say, thank you for Barbie and what that meant to me. And like I loved and like that's kind of like the fan interactions that I have. I usually like people saying things like that. And so like it was really cool to like just, like I thought I was like the impact that Margot has had on like, like she's just, I love her. When I like described her to people, I'm like, she's as beautiful on the outside as she is on the inside and like so, so smart. And like, it's an overwhelming combination. But she's a marvelous person. Speaking of Margot, people are obviously dying to know what is going on with this potential Aqatar TV series. Can you give us any update of like what do you think is happening? So I have the right spec to everything now. And getting the right spec to all my things has been a big part of my journey and recent years that like maybe at some point soon I will like talk more about. So like right now my focus is on books and like gets as it's been a little while since like you guys have had something. So like I'm focusing on like that. But like I look at any TV movie adaptation as kind of like another facet of like the worlds that I've created. And it's something that I want to be in charge of like I want to be figuring out like I want to be learning everything that I can. That type A like control freak a little bit. But like I want to like I want to know like everything about how it gets made. Not because of that control it was because I love movies. I love TV like I want to like be a part of that. And I want to see everything adapted the way I envision it. And the way like I know fans want it. And like I don't ever want to hear like oh we need to change this to appeal to like XYZ's demographic. I'm like no that's not how you make art. That's not how I create my stories. So like when I do it like it's going to be like me. And I will like dedicate like everything that I have to like making it right. But like it will be like I will be in there like you know looking at like all the design but also like what does it sound like because music plays such a big part like. So like I'm not just going to like the music is going to have to be like a huge project. You'll have to have understandably your hands on every single part of it because it's in your brain. Like you created this world. So to give it over to anyone else would be. No like I view it as like my legacy in a way where I'm like I put my books out into the world that's like one way that the fans are like interacting and seeing these characters. But like the physical version of that like needs to be aligned. It can't just be like someone's take on that. I'm like no this is it's yeah it's yours. Have you seen the fans who have created like the AI world of like the spring court and like it's no I have not. I need to show you after not. I it is so incredible and I'll be on TikTok watching and I'm like honestly they made resand look like I'm like how are you going to actually find a normal human being that looks like this. I know I know I know I sometimes like I that's part of my problem. Casting I don't yeah and that's I'm not going to like settle for someone because I'm like being pushed. I'm like I need to find the perfect person and take however long it takes to find them. I have yet to find my perfect Reese. I don't really have like anyone. I like that's the thing I have not found anyone. So I'm like I can't like be forced to like no it's going to it's going to happen when it's going to happen. It needs to be organic. It needs to be like something that comes from me. Yes. And it's like something that I'm proud of you know. Okay, let's go back because to anyone who isn't familiar with your full story so your relationship with writing kind of started as a teenager. But there was a moment in seventh grade where you stopped reading because it wasn't cool anymore. What was it that made you feel that way? Okay, first of all we read the most boring fucking books. That like and I was a big reader like I loved reading as a kid. I loved fairy tales. I like I loved all of that like I like all the babysitters club. The box card children but we weren't reading that in school. And like yes, we were exposed to like great writing. But it was so boring for me to be like quite honest. Yeah. Just at that age that like I was like I'm done. I'm done with it. And what were you like in middle school? I was cool. I was a cool I like I've been through eras of my life. I'm turning 40 like very soon and I'm having like a big girls weekend or it's actually more like a week. I got a week out of everyone in the Bahamas and the theme is Sarah's Eras. And. Okay. Can you take us to those eras? Because there have been so many versions of me. So middle school Sarah was like all into like nails makeup like backstreet boys versus n-sync versus spice girls. I was spice girls all the way. Always. Obviously. But then I kind of had like this secret life in middle school where like every day I would like run home from school. Like I would chat with my friends and then like bolt down the streets of New York City to get home in time to watch Sailor Moon on like cartoon network every afternoon. Oh my god. And so like popular girl was a like anime freak like obsessed with like Sailor Moon like all this anime and then like around seventh grade I also got into like reading fantasy like I figured out like. Okay. There are books that I do like to read that like are like fairy tales and like but for like grownups in a way. So like fantasy became a whole thing. So I was like hanging out with my friends going to the bar and bot mitzvahs like dirty dancing on the floor and then like going home and like taping episodes of Sailor Moon on my VHS recorder. So it all kind of started in middle school where you were like interesting. I don't like the books in school but I like these books that I found in this like fantasy world. Yes. And you started to kind of have an appetite for it. Yes. And then like around like around the same time I realized like I didn't just want to read it like I wanted to write that kind of thing and come up with my own like adventures. Well, that's what's so crazy is when I was researching I'm like you started writing thrown of glass at 16 years old. Okay. So thrown up. So when I started writing thrown of glass I was in my emo Lord of the Rings phase Sarah. Legolas. I still have my cardboard cut out of Legolas and like Josh is weirdly threatened by him. Like he doesn't like to see him because like there's all these like stains around Legolas Legolas's mouth from like where I like I used to like make out with him like like Sarah. This is I call it. It's the worst and the best thing because I didn't go on a single date in high school. Legolas was my boyfriend. My seven year old I told my seven year old son that once when he was younger and he literally believes me to the point where we were watching the Lord of the Rings ones and he's like hey mom look it's your boyfriend. You're like yeah, that is. Yeah, and I was like I was like I know I was like can you believe I left him for daddy so sad. And he's like oh mom to the point where like even now like again I don't really get star struck but like even now if I saw Orlando Bloom I would piss my pants shit my pants vomit on myself like ovulate like everything would happen all at once. I wouldn't like I would cry. I don't know everybody fluid would just come spraying out of me. I would not be okay. Okay, but this all makes sense though Sarah because like I was so curious I'm like 16 years old you start writing thrown of glass and and I read I know that you like kind of trashed eventually and rewrote the whole thing. But still to be 16 years old and have the wherewithal to create such a large incredible world in your head and be able to pen to paper that is really incredible. Well like so middle school Sarah was like cool had a lot of friends high school. I went to a different high school. Okay, all right to start all over again and like high school Sarah didn't have many friends and like was not very happy has the emo Sarah like I mean full on like studded belt the like plastic bands like and like I was that kid that like had my headphones on like in the hall of school like probably like very like just feeling like a fish out of water there because like I went to a very like posh upper east side high school and like I was not like a lot of the other kids and so with my books and stuff like they I knew I wanted to write I got like the idea for throwing a glass and I wanted to write that as an actual story but then the timing of it was like just perfect we're like I was in a place in my life where like I just needed like an escape from school and life sometimes and like closing my door to my bedroom and like turning on like my like was like one of those square iMac computers like I was like I use like floppy disks for the first few drafts of thrown a glass. But like that was like an escape for me that was it was like if things weren't going well at school or like at home or just like in general. But it's so beautiful to hear you say that like this was such a passion of yours and then obviously you were able to turn that passion into your livelihood and your purpose and then at 26 you finally publish and come out with thrown a glass almost 10 years after you came up with the idea which I think like it's like a really hard industry to get into obviously anything in publishing it's like it's close to impossible sometimes to get your first book published. Did any of your family or friends try to sway you and be like Sarah I don't know if this is the easiest path to go down for a career. I got into a number of fights with my parents who I say this quite lovingly but my parents are like New York lawyers my mom was a judge like they're intellectual again lovingly snob say you know read the New York Times front to back every day but back and my dad still insists on reading a physical newspaper. So my parents are so my I'm very different whereas like I'm like page six baby like I'm like tell me tell me a lot gas like I need to know everything and so like my parents like oh did you read this analysis of so and so I'm like no but did you see what she was wearing last night on and they're like what is this but so I was always like this changeling alien child who was like into the fantasy stuff and my parents were great in that they always gave me an unlimited budget like four books they gave me the space to write like you know they let me just go lock myself in my room for hours and work but like once like college was kind of like wrapping up like they're like so what are you gonna do and I'm like I'm gonna be a writer and they're like well most people one can't get a book deal and like my parents had friends who like you know we're either like lawyers in the literary world or like literary agents and they're like it's impossible like you're not gonna get it like in fantasy wasn't even like like fantasy comes in cycles where like sometimes it's huge and then it quiet sounds like we were in like a dystopia phase like it was like the hunger games was kind of like starting to become like insane around then so my parents were like like you're publishing this like you want to publish this epic fantasy thing like and who's paying for this who where you and you want to go move out with your boyfriend to Los Angeles and get a car and like all like you need to so I actually considered like doing like an MFA thing just to like buy myself more time but I did like I went to one like interview with like a director of an MFA program and when she heard that I write fantasy she literally went like that like an actual like sound and you were like by I was like we're done here and I was like I'll sign a copy of my book for you one day and I just I walked out and I was like I'm not doing that I don't need anybody to teach me what I've taught myself like I was a creative writing major in college but like it was it was a very fun major to have but it was useless for me because a lot of the classes were all the classes were geared towards writing short stories poetry and so like senior thesis time came around and I was like I was like I want to write a book like and I also like want you to spend some time in our like seminar talking about like how do you get published like how do you get an agent how do you get published and like it was like it wasn't even it was like I was the first person who would ever ask that and I was like I don't want to write short story I tried to argue with my advisor that I didn't have to take poetry because I would never write a word of poetry in my life I was like I can swear to you here and now I'm writing fantasy books I was like in the office like 21 years old I was like I am writing fantasy books and I will never fucking write a poem so exempt me from this class and he was like no you have to take it you have to take it and like I'm terrible it's like mathematical component to poetry like the meter and the rhythm and all that stuff that like Josh had to help Josh was a math major and he had to help me with my homework where you'd like diagram out and I was like I don't understand. We need to talk about these three series so when I was talking to my friends about it I think something that is quite literally the most mind blowing thing that you have been able to do and a lot of people are so perplexed by how you've done it is all of your series converge in somewhere or another but that must take years of planning so can you try to explain to me how you have been able to have the foresight that all three of these giant series somehow overlap. I mean I don't actually know how I have the brain capacity for this because like on a daily basis I'm like barely functioning but I don't I mean like because I started writing so young I was able to like figure out these worlds these characters and when I was trying to get published initially like I had a lot of downtime like what like waiting for like agents to respond publishers to respond and like writing something that I love the most so like I was always writing so like during that waiting time when I was trying to get from a glass published Akatar came out of me the first two books of Akatar like poured out of me in 2008 2009 when I went around then like in like a two month span the first book is very similar to what came out of me I went of rewriting Misson Fury the ultimate like direction of it was of course the same but like I've been and then Cresson City was like a passion project for many years that I would write kind of to this sounds kuku krezy but like I would reach the end of a day having like edited like thrown a glass or Akatar and like I just was like done with those worlds and I wanted to go like play and like at the time like there was not as much cursing in like my earlier book so I was like I just want to write like fucking shit and damn it all the time like and like and so Cresson City just started as I didn't not have any intention of publishing it and it was just on the side and then as I was writing that I was like and like so I had all this time very early on in my career even before my career really took off to like have a vision of what I wanted to do do you have like a map in your house to like be like okay this world no it's all all in my head I mean like I have notebooks where I write things down but like the overarching like vision of it is all I wish I could live in your head for a that is crazy all you would hear is just cheetos and diet on our feet and all these worlds bouncing back and forth yeah no I mean it's it's it's like it's very strange to have like all of that in your head because like I and it's almost like a separate thing where like I have like two kids now so like on a daily basis I'm like okay like what am I making them for dinner that's not like boxed mac and cheese and then like I like switch between these modes were suddenly like I'll be able to put that away when they're at school and then like the world's expand again and I'm living in them it's like a muscle you have to flex when you get to sit back down yeah but then also like I sometimes like go back especially with like the music that's inspired like some some of the scenes and like the books and just like I will listen to the music that inspired those scenes and relive those scenes and like sometimes just like cry or just like just like and I don't even read what's in there I just like relive that moment of like where clarity where I saw it and so sometimes in reflecting and going back I'm able to think like you know like that moment really struck like struck me and like stood out to me like how can we pull that through in the future and then like but then sometimes I'm thinking like books ahead like I'll write like one little line and be like like this will come back and like that and sometimes things line up too and like a really like cosmic psychic way where I mean I again I have like crystals all over my desk so like am I channeling like something that's happening in like the you know like another universe and I'm just like writing it down because it all lines up perfectly yeah like sometimes where I like there was something recently where like it lined up like I had not planned it but it was like my subconscious or like some like human wide psychic thing like I had tapped into it it was like you know slow pitch over the the plate for me just to like it was there it was there and I just and like I jumped out of my seat and like shut my computer and I was like no like we're done here we're done this is like too perfect like this is planned this like I was like some this came from not me and I don't know say that from like an ego to I just literally I'm like this work it was it worked out like almost to like a like super natural level this makes me so happy as a fan because I'm like I was wondering I'm like how does this all go down but now I want to talk about some of your female characters yeah because I genuinely believe in the past I do think that fantasy and I think everyone knows this like fantasy and that world was more dominated by male authors obviously and then you came into the game and I think people really gravitate towards your work because of these really strong independent complex women that you are creating in these worlds um one of your most beloved female characters in Throne of Glass is Alain what did you want to communicate through her evolution I don't Alain came out of me just and like there was no planned evolution Alain in some ways her journey mirrored so much of me growing up growing into like I poured a lot like she's not me in any way but like there was a journey like a mirror journey there um and a lot of my books are like and and what my characters go through is in some ways like a mirror into things I've been going through but like Alain from the start just came out of me fully formed kind of like Athena springing from Zeus's head like that and she just was there and like I almost just let her lead the way and like my life like paralleled it where I could understand this it sounds like I had no control over her but I really didn't and I let her lead me where she needed to go but also was able to like connect with her like I don't know like there were just like moments in my life where I can like look back at those scenes in front of glass and remember like what it was that inspired that scene and not not like played by play events but just like a feeling like in like the like the assassins blades like novellas like there's like one of the later ones like she's like out all night like partying and like just like watches the sunrise and it's like that was like me like in college like staying out with my friends like having an amazing time at a party and just like that feeling of like you're young and everything's beautiful and like you are immortal and like isn't it amazing to be alive and like here like that went into that and so like like those were the thing I mean I was able to connect with her in those moments like and so I don't know like and then like her rage and her like her anger I'm like I never got to see women being angry and bitchy the way I often felt like I always felt like everyone like had to be like sweet and nice and like I was not those things I was not any of those things like I was always kind when I tried to be to people but like I had like strong feelings about things like I had like I could fly off the handle on something and I wanted to write about a woman that like didn't have to be appealing to anyone and that like I did not give a shit if anyone reading it liked her like this was her sorry like that was who she was and like take it or leave it better and like I wanted to let her make bad choices and learn from those choices and grow in the same way that like I also wanted her to have like different romantic relationships like I don't know like any of my anyone that like has just been like I met this one guy and like we're in love and now we're getting married and that's it like no like I wanted her to grow with that and take things away from those relationships and I know she just like as I was learning all of that stuff growing up and like you know like she was too like so there was just a natural mirror she was one of the first characters you ever wrote so it's like to know that there was a mirror there it it makes sense and I think it's beautiful that you were like I literally don't care if anyone likes her doesn't like this is who she is take her leave her yeah I mean that was the same like Manon and Throneglass like that was like an even more extreme version of it I was like she's just gonna go like with our nails and just like we do her thing yeah yeah you said um you're drawn to writing women who can't kind of be placed in a definable category which I love as a woman yourself in this industry what box have you felt like people have tried to put you in oh you're like oh sweetie how am I doing have I feel like I should have a sedative before I like completely explode I just think in general when a lot of people here that I write romantic fantasy you know like as much as I love my like steamy sexy hot scenes like this dismissal now of like smut where I'm like yeah I write smut like I love it but like that's not what like my fans come up to me to talk about like like like when they want to come thank me like it's like yes we giggle and laugh about like the hot scenes whatever but like they tell me how they left like their abusive husband after they read a court of mist and fury and like we cry over that and so like the putting me into this box it like she just writes like really sexy stuff I'm like no I love writing that stuff I don't always be proud of it like I mean granted like I was like copy editing a scene in silver flames ones where it was like when the still blows Cassian at like the dinner table and my dad was visiting and I was like I had like the printed out pages and my dad was like what are you working on there and I was like oh my god I was like nothing we're done I'm not editing the scene anymore it was the worst fucking thing like dad please don't read this no and like he insists on it I'm like should I rip out pages for you but then like the sex but that's the thing where I'm like the sex sometimes is tied to the plot like silver flames for example like nesta and Cassian like they're having like hot sex and like bodily fluids are flying everywhere but it is like intensely tied to their own emotional journeys and their own journey as a couple and so like this dismissal of like it's just like smut like whatever I'm like it's fun I designed it to be entertaining but it's also moving and like I write like what I consider to be like cool shit that like means something to me I love that you just clarified that too because I do believe it is such a double standard obviously with women that like if you at all tap into sexuality or sex in any realm everything else that you also are contributing in that category is completely dismissed because people are like oh you're just writing like sex shit and you're like wait no that's like what and and so it's so frustrating but I do believe in a in a gorgeous way like if people took the time that's also just a testament to people sometimes don't give a shit and they want to misunderstand you yes if you take the time to understand these female characters that you're writing yes they have been so liberating for so many women they have helped so many people and it's been an escape for a lot of women which you've done an incredible job with oh yeah yeah and I just I mean I think of it as like when I when I want to reread books like I'm not going to like the depressing boring shit like I want to read books that make me happy that have a happy end and like if you want to read like those other types of books fine like good for you but for me like I want things where like I go on a journey like I like I and I like there's hot sex that I can like you know dog ear those pages and like read all of that however many times I want but then also like it brings me joy and I find that there is a tendency for people to roll their eyes at things that bring joy and bring women joy especially and it pisses me the fuck off constantly um and I get like like you were saying like anytime like a woman she writes something and there's like even a little pint of sex that's not like fade to black or like you know very like artistically mentioned it's like suddenly it devalues the work and it doesn't matter what else is in that book if there is some kind of like hot graphically and I'm like I don't understand though because you're writing a thing that is so accurate to life and sex is a part of life I was gonna say this is one of the this is the commonality that all of us share yes we all have sex we all deserve pleasure yeah and so if we continue to go down the path of women shouldn't write about these things or read about these things or talk about these things then it really is still just a man's game yeah it's very like Victorian yes where I'm like okay like you're like getting into the nitty gritty of like you know what like you're like Midwestern alcohol alcoholic I'm like what about like the sex what's going on with that like that that is a key part of anyone's life I'm like you want to have a mirror like an accurate and you don't have to have sex but it's just this idea that like having it there again devalues the work it's I find it a little more than frustrating um but then it's also like anything related to women like I I got like watching like Lord of the Rings or like reading that like as a kid like all these fantasy books like with all these guys in them there's like no women well I would think like okay like if I was there like me and Legolas are running through the the Merquid together um because I totally marry Legolas in my mind obviously Sarah obviously I'll give you that one thank you thank you very much that's my number one fantasy um but like I'm going on an epic fantasy quest in my mind like I'm like in Mordor I get my fucking period what do I do and like I want to write about that shit I'm like that's like I mean it's not only like funny to me but it's also like this is a reality it's like our life like I'm like and so like in my books I'm like I want to write about things that like yeah the sex the like you know the real stuff like the real stuff where I'm like what if you got your period when you were climbing the slopes of Mount Doom what would you do like are you free bleeding like are you like do you have cramps Sarah J. Mass is getting the hard hitting fast I just want to know maybe some people don't want to know those things but I was like I get I do such a deep dive into the world into these characters that I'm thinking of like bathroom breaks when was their last period like all of that I think it's so obvious though that although there and we always hear the negatives there's such clearly an appetite for what you've done I also love how you talk about the real stuff because speaking of the real stuff um obviously yes your books are fiction but like you are hitting very real honest topics that you can kind of extract what you want to take from each and I think there was a lot of online discourse around favora's pregnancy in a court of silver flames because I think a lot of people were frustrated right that she didn't have control or understanding of what was happening to her body um and her partner did which we'll get to but can you talk a little bit about why you chose to write her story that way I love my children I am fucking obsessed with my kids I hated being pregnant I hated it it was traumatic for me every step of the way starting with like when I was first pregnant with my son and I was told by like this asshole of a nurse like okay this is your weight and you can only gain this much weight while you're pregnant and like as someone who's had like a history with like disordered eating and stuff like being told like you can you're only allowed to gain between this like here and here like this is all you can gain during pregnancy it took every bit of joy away or instead of focusing on this beautiful beautiful baby growing inside of me I was thinking about the food I was putting in my body and then the constant tests and appointments where you're being like literally like having like probes in you and like you know just like it felt very and like I I'm like the person where I like I have to make myself go to the gynecologist even though I love my gynecologist I'm like I like I hate doctors I hate waiting rooms I hate all of that I hate the interruption to my daily life and so pregnancy was not fun and then my son was born in an emergency c-section two weeks late the people that I knew back then who had had kids were like oh like you don't want to take any of the drugs like you will like really hurt like the baby and it's like the opposite like if you're a good mother like you won't like take the pain medication and so I was like I like I came up with a birth plan I had a do I had all this stuff planned out and if and if that works for you like that's fine but for me that was my way of trying to like control it and then that day I'm like I'm told no like I have to have every medical intervention possible I have to have an emergency c-section but like worse than that like I went into the hospital and I was told by the doctor who was going to like induce she was first going to induce me she's like go have a big meal because you're gonna be like you know pushing this baby out all night so I get to the hospital after having like a big dinner to repair myself for labor and then it turns out like I need to have an emergency c-section but the doctor who is there is a man and he starts yelling at me saying why would you eat anything you can't eat anything and I was like your colleague literally told me to go have a big dinner and come here I did not know I was having an emergency c-section I never had surgery of any sort in my life before this point so like for me even to be in like a hospital gown in a hospital like I'm terrified and then this male this man I've never met before and like is telling me like this is what we are doing and like you did everything wrong and he's scolding me so I'm already terrified it's my first kid I don't know what to expect and so then they're like okay we're taking you back and as I can my husband come back for like the epidural for all like I'd never seen the inside of an operating room and they were like no and I was like can he please come back I need someone there with me I've never done this before and they're like he's not allowed in there and so like they wouldn't let him back so I'm like in the like operating room like like sitting on the table waiting for this massive needle and I'm shaking so violently with terror that like and like all the doctors they're like ignored like they did not give a shit it was the intern like the med school intern that like saw me like panic like a girl and she came over and like held my hand through it and I was like whoever you are and like I hope like she she probably isn't no idea that she helped me like that meant so much to me that day that moment of kindness where I was like a fellow young woman like being like this woman is terrified and like no one is being nice to her and so then like the recovery from the C section was horrible the guy like sliced me way too high he was lazy I'm probably giving like way too many details no this is like this is the real shit he sliced me in a way that was convenient to him but essentially destroyed like the flow and look at my stomach or it never would heal right to the point where we moved to a new state eventually and I got pregnant with my daughter and like I took me a while to even want to have a second kid because what I went through and the recovery from the C section was so bad it was not fun for me and like I had to have this emergency C section one like because like my son was two weeks late but too he started going into distress but like he had not dropped and it was the kind of thing where I sometimes think about this like if I had been born like a hundred years before I would have died this and so like that really stuck with me this sense of like I should be dead and my son should be dead from this and I hope that he's listening to this like not freaking out right now but like I should be like not here and so like that kind of like has lingered around like without modern science and medicine like I wouldn't be here but then when I had my my daughter I had an amazing gynecologist here in LA actually and she in our first appointment we met each other she took one look at what this man had done to me and she had to walk out of the room and she she was like I never would have cut you like that and she was so she she was shake she was so she was like this was unnecessary like well why did he do it she's like because he was lazy and he was an asshole and so then she and then when it came time to deliver my daughter and she had to like she had to use the same line and she was so mad that she had to like do this and like so it just was like this very traumatic thing and my body never felt like with a kid in me like it never felt like my body anyway because I'm like there's an alien growing in me this is weird and like every time like they would move and I like see them like I was not like oh I was like get out like what is this and so then like to lose complete control like a lot like just I did not have like easy pregnancies and births and so like fairer and all of that like just was my own way of processing my shit and like I get like it's not like I didn't die wasn't like dead like fairer was but like like the fear like Reese's fear even that probably came from my fear and thinking about having another kid and like just like all of that that's what and that's the way where like the things I go through in life feed into my books where like it wasn't a play by play of my pregnancy and like obviously my kids don't have wings that are getting stuck in the birth canal but like the fear the trauma like all of that like the writing that book allowed me to get it out of my system in a way and process it thank you for sharing that because obviously I I've read the book and and this gives so much more color to like the why and and it just made me think too like we don't talk about how it is very risky yeah and there's like a constant like they're constantly doing tests like every ultrasound is terrifying because you want to make sure is everything okay is there a heartbeat even and you're like and so there's all there's joy in it but there's fear constantly but constantly built into the stages of pregnancy and like and maybe some women do just have pure joy but I found it to be very stressful very scary I just was constantly like worrying that something would go wrong I mean when I was pregnant with my daughter I actually like broke my ankle and fell down the stairs yeah I like took one step and like my ankle just like crunched and then I fell down the stairs because my ankle like gave way and I was like pretty heavily pregnant I'd be like rushed to the hospital and like they'd like check that the baby was okay that's like I was advertising yeah and it just was like a level of like freak out where everyone's like oh my god like the worst possible thing could happen and it's happened like it was intense it was were you nervous at all about the feedback of writing this into favors no I mean like the thing is this like again with like the sex and the periods I'm like motherhood is a thing that's so many women experience for bitter or worse and it was something that I wanted to write about where I didn't want like like the favors journey shouldn't just end where it's like she's happily ever after and she's punching out kids I'm like no like there's like a story to be told there there are things that like will play out from that and like motherhood doesn't need to be like glossed over it doesn't need to be something that's like seen as weak like someone being in a loving relationship with a person and choosing to bring a new life into this world and to share their world and open up their hearts to someone that's a beautiful thing like however you make a family like that is a beautiful wonderful thing and it is not a weakness and like I have become a stronger person because I'm a mother like I learned how to stand up for myself becoming a mom more than I ever did before I had kids and I realize like I who I am now not just being a mom but the things I have learned as a mom like I really like they're like the biggest bad asses in the world and like I have learned more from being a mom than I ever did and I think that's a strength and a wisdom that like should be shared it is and like beautiful that you did I also remember and I don't know if you can say if it was related to that but you've said before that you were going through some mental health struggles while writing a court of silver flames and in the book obviously we see Nesta working through some of her trauma and trying to overcome it like yeah in what ways did your life at the time mirror or influence each other in that writing process all of my books kind of have mirrored my own mental mental health journey even before I realized I had issues like a lot of what like Alain went through and like Aura fire all of that like that was like drawn from like very broken places in me mist and fury that came out of me and I didn't even realize like what that meant about me but silver flames was really the first time when I understood the connection and I around 2018 I mean it was the year my son was born I had three books published I was requested to come back from my maternity leave like a couple weeks later to do like copy edits like page like like I just like reviewing stuff and like so like I literally like the stuff I sent in was splattered with breast milk because I was like pumping and pumping like while I'm like editing pages it was a lot and like there was a lot and it was like like Kingdom of Ash was coming out that year and like I just kept like refining things and tweaking things and it's about to go to the printer and I'm told like it's too long the book is too long by a couple pages it has to go to print in like two days we need to find like five pages to cut and like not just like like see like like so I went through this book again pumping hormonal recovering from a c-section frantic to find like to move texture like literally not just like cutting words but like being like this line like you could like bump this word up here like all like one thousand pages in a frenzy I finish it and then I get an email oh yeah we found this space anyway it's okay and so like it was just like there was a lot going on and so like that was the year that I started to have these like panic attacks where I had this overwhelming sense that something awful was going to happen that it was all going to go away and implode and that like it and it got like I would I would I had a panic attack that lasted for like two three days out of I'd never had one before and then they just started happening like more and more frequently until like I got to like the fall of like 2019 and I reached like such a dark place that like I scared myself and I realized like I needed to talk to someone I needed therapy um like it was a very like I'm probably going to cry talking about it it was a very very low moment and going to therapy wound up being the thing that saved my life it saved my life and I went because I looked at my son sorry and I just was like I want to be here this is what I'm fighting for I don't want to feel this way the thing that I love the most writing has become terrifying to me like I need to not be sorry in this in this hole and so I it started going to therapy I got put on medication we figured it out it was rough but out of that as I was doing that that's when I started writing silver flames and so what nest of feels in that book I wrote that as I was going through therapy and so like I've never cried talking I feel very emotional talking about this but her I remember like the exact moment when I like came up with the idea for the scene where she and Cassie and her taking that hike and she just breaks down and like that was me in New Zealand with Josh at my lowest on a hike thinking the same thing and just like and as I was on this hike I started crying and then I saw nest that and I saw this scene and so like that came out I took notes I wrote down that scene like that all came out of me and so where she gets like at the end like she's not perfect she's not healed she's still a work in progress but like I she was in a hole I was in a hole and like we dug our way out of it together and like the friends that I like made during that like it's like the friendship she made we're like the love that you have with like your romantic partner is one thing but then like finding like girlfriends that like get you and like don't judge you like that is another thing and like that was a gift that I was given to that like and so you just I just basically wrote what needed to come out of me as I was going through all of it and so that book has a very very special place in my heart but now I'm able to look back at like Missed in Fury and like Aileen's journey in Thornaglas and realized like oh yes like I did actually suffer from a lot of these things for many many years and I had coping mechanisms in place that were very effective until they weren't anymore. Can you share a little bit with Missed in Fury like what you were going through? I mean favors sense of panic like those panic attacks that she has where she's describing walls coming in and like all of that came from feelings that I have right I didn't even know I was having panic attacks that raced the acid in the blood feeling reactions to things like just like these ups and down like all of that and like I drew on my own like emotional feelings but I had no idea until I was able to reflect in therapy like oh like so like high school like yeah like of course that's why I felt the way I did like my anxiety around like tests and all of that and like having to like perform like so many like I've uncovered so many things about myself but that now make like looking back on my books I'm like oh this is really interesting because like this was the shit that I was going through without even realizing I was going through that but Sarah like it's so real hearing you speak about this because you sharing your birth journey and as a woman sitting across from you I when you were like oh my god I hope this isn't too much detail I was like no no no keep going because I think all of us are sitting here being like yes we've experienced it we've all gone to whether it's a gynecologist and it's been uncomfortable or a doctor and these are real things that kind of are like hush hush and you don't talk about all the way from that traumatic experience and then having your child you having this moment where the thing that you loved the most of like wanting to have a child and also writing and all of it kind of closing in and not going the way you wanting it to and everyone's like yelling at you to get these things done what used to be such a fun time in your life to just write because it was in your brain now it's like it's a deadline let's go job yeah it's a job and so you started to put too much pressure on yourself because understandably this thing has gotten so massive yeah and unfortunately as humans sometimes we literally need the breaking point to slow us down to be like something has to change I can't live like this forever yeah yeah and just like realizing that like I do have a value as a person beyond my books and like my the love that like the people around me feel for me is not tied to my success and like and accepting that like whatever happens like that doesn't take away from me and like the blessings that I have in my life not in terms of like the material things but like my children my husband my friends like those are all the things that like nothing can take that away from me and that's what I like real like I learned to separate it in a very healthy way where now like it is like a job for me now but it's something that I can approach with joy and like confidence where I'm not operating from a place of fear which is what started to happen before I had these like massive panic attacks that is so relatable and I have also experienced that in my life so I'm like very in simpatico with you right now because I think a lot of people can relate to that of having a feeling in your life where you get something you've always wanted but then the fear of losing it it starts to take over your entire body it's away and you feel like as big as it keeps getting you almost you don't have time to stop and process it and enjoy it and it's like all of a sudden your greatest like happiness that was this passion thing becomes this nightmare exactly that only you can kind of re-regulate and be like if all this goes away tomorrow I'm still me I have my husband I have my family and it doesn't have to go away tomorrow but I have to believe that if I need to know I would be okay if it didn't so my therapist made me go through a scenario she's like okay it's all done what are you doing and like she made me walk through it she's like what do you do she's like what's your priority I'm like well I need to make sure that my kids have how like we went through every worst case scenario and she had me figure my way out through it until I realized like I am I am okay I will survive I am like strong I am like able to adapt and pivot if I need to and like so like knowing that that gave me a freedom to be like yeah okay I'll do the thing that I want to do like worst case scenario I'll be like a florist slash like DJ slash like amateur marine biologist like I wanted to be like as a kid uh what did you want to okay when I was in the middle DJ marine behind me okay like when I was in middle school I was in middle school I had this like I loved shark I still love sharks okay I wanted to be a marine biologist as well as a writer okay but like I had this dream of like living like on the beach and like the Caribbean like sleeping in a hammock at night and then like going out in the morning with like my spear fishing gun and catching my like lobster for breakfast and then I go out and study sharks all day and like that was the life I was gonna lead so you're like I could tap back in that guy's I'm going back to I nearly flunked every science in math course which is why I did not become a marine biologist freshman bio I was like just on the verge of an after the entire year it's good to know though like if all this goes away we know where to look for you yeah find me on the open seas I love that we also just hit on like if the whole system of like oh my god she's just talking about sex and we just went through all this really intense fucking shit yeah and now we can talk about the sex in a fun way because that is not just what it is but it's a huge major point oh my parents I'm not even telling them about this interview okay don't even tell them yeah don't tell mom and dad don't tell mom dad they're never gonna watch this they don't even know they didn't know how to use an iPad my dad's reading the paper newspaper sell this not being the newspaper no hopefully god I feel really good okay I was thinking about you talked about how like you love to write about the push and pull in relationships romantically which like obviously we all love it but what first you specifically really makes you tick about that type of dynamic I just like if I'm like does that kind of turn me on yeah okay then I'm gonna fucking write it and like that dynamic like the characters have to like have that spark initially it's almost beyond me we're like if they don't like and sometimes like two characters will like get together and there's like something there that I didn't even like plan I'm like okay like we're gonna go with that and I like the way like that makes me feel like there's something there that I can't put my finger on but there is like a chemistry give me an example I mean when I was first writing a guitar a million bajillion years ago those initial few weeks I was just going by like like headlight style like I would only write as far as I could just like see like you know like down the road and so fair I just was writing as it came to me like I did not plan that book it just poured out of me so like I didn't know what was gonna happen I didn't plan it out beforehand so faira like there's a beast that I'm like oh this guy's like hot and like she gets to his like house I'm like oh he's sexy and then like we get to like the kids in the night when Reese shows up and then I'm like oh no oh no like it's not this guy it's this guy and then like and so like that was like so like that initial seed like I was like this is a sweet little romance with like beauty in the beast with like faira and tamin and then like page whatever it's like Reese walks on and like I did not plan him he walked into that scene ahead of time I was like I get like writing this in real time not planning it I had nothing to do I didn't have a job at that time so I just was like writing I hope whatever came out of me that day and so like I one of the most epic scenes you're like it just happened in my brain it literally I was just writing this scene where like I had planned for there to be like you know like sexy like bonfires all of that and then like through the smoke all the sudden here he comes this guy comes and I'm like I who the fuck is this and then like he's there and I'm like oh no like this is what we're doing so it's like that kind of thing we're amazing like and that's just like I saw it and felt it all like but then like of court like it was so funny when like the first act of tar came out and people were like I love tamin so much I got a tattoo of him and like knowing what like was going to happen like like I was like I'm so happy like I'm so happy for you also I'm so sorry I will give you I will pay for the tattoo laser removal all year um well no it was such a mind fuck because I also was falling in love with tamin and then I was like no what is happening but I wanted it to be like like you know like what you fall in love with a guy and then you realize like he's not the one for you and like he's got a lot of fucking issues yeah across your books if you had to say right now today which couple is your current favorite oh my god I don't know what that's really really hard and depends on my mood I don't know okay that's the impolite I don't like that I can't I can't I love them all again like I have to feel it and like feel that like sexiness and like I don't like and I have to be like obsessed with them okay fuck Mary kill resand hunt Rowan okay okay okay okay okay I'm like trying to think of like the realities of my own marriage and like what has worked and what doesn't work okay I'm like which one of them farts the least that's the one I want to marry perfect because I live with that reality well you know you know you wrote these people I don't know this is hard I mean like I kind of like want to fuck all of them okay to be quite honest and Mary all I don't want to kill on you of them I you'll fuck them all yeah I'll just honestly you make the rules today Sarah okay you want to fuck them all yeah I'm fine my parents aren't listening to this yeah let's all I have no idea my son is listening you're son and your husband are in the other room but that's fine yeah no no I hope they know it is years yeah isn't it true that you like part of your process is you sit and ponder how sexy the character's potential name is before officially giving it to them oh yeah again like I am like I will always be like a like a list fan girl part of that's like his name and like like what if he's name like I mean no offense to anyone but like Frank right you're like Frank right like I'm not getting off to Frank the elf warrior prince we are there any names that almost made the cut in your series but didn't that you could share I mean nothing like yet nothing I don't think I like named like every like I've used up like all my hot but like usually like if like someone's attractive I'm like okay let's find the hottest name and then I'll like go through like baby name websites and I'm like sexy Celtic warrior god with abs of steel what name is that I wish I could see your Google search it was it would be all sad it would be like what time the next la bubu drop and then like show me abs um and what are good names and what are hot baby names sexy sexy baby names which I'm sure is a very strange thing to I was so messed up from it because when I was reading it at first I was in my own world and I really thought his name was Rye sand and then I thought you're like oh you idiot and then I'm like Sarah no like oh I allow any and all pronunciations you do it's a safe space I I am not gonna judge I I am a reader first and foremost okay so I understand well because when you shorten it to rise it looks like rise instead of Reese and then I remember going on TikTok and I was like oh my god I'm an idiot and so then I had to like reach my brain which is fine and favor I forget I think it was not a natural Reese is an actual like name in this world wouldn't it be REE well it can be spelled like that but there's isn't there like a fillies player you're right I got Reese Reese yeah yeah yeah whatever I don't know his it's not like favora is a made up name that one how do you come up with that I don't know you use it's like I was like I was like what sounds cool favora done done put her down we're done um okay we need to quickly talk about the Tamlin and re-sand thing because it is a big conversation that I think people are gonna kill me if I don't ask about okay obviously throughout the AkaTar books we saw Tamlin like trying to justify his controlling tendencies by saying things like oh my gosh I'm just doing it to protect favora um then he locks her in the manner which was infuriating and wild what were you hoping for readers to understand about their relationship as that slowly started to progress because you're right you made us all fall in love with him and get tattoos about him and then and then yeah and I you know what I think like people change in relationships and what favora and to be fair Tamlin went through under the mountain fucked them both up majorly and Tamlin is someone that you know we have adelved too deeply into this but it's been put in the books like he had a fucked up family he did not have any systems in place to cope with that but he also is a guy who's been like in charge and powerful for a long time and then like someone's like stand like he doesn't know he doesn't have the emotional toolkit to handle this and he implodes and he drags her down with him um and that was just like it just felt natural to me like it just felt like a natural thing where like I knew who Tamlin was as a person knew like that this is how he would react and this like shows who he is and this like Reese responds to the trauma in a different way in the way that phara needs and connects with Tamlin can't handle that trauma and it's you know he made his own choices but he's also the result of his upbringing so there's an element that's like me that I pity him you know in the same way I pity like anyone who's like endured like an abusive family trauma all of that like he like he's been through it and he doesn't know how to cope with it and like he does shitty things because of it and I'm not like excusing those shitty things because like that is why phara moved on um but I wanted phara to like realize like there are different ways to face the shit that you go through and that's what defines you the wedding scene okay I loved it so much because I thought it was actually such again such an accurate representation of a woman before those doors open yeah and you see so many women who talk about I kind of knew before I went down the aisle so why did I do it yeah and you slowed it down so perfectly yeah that it was this like horrifying amazing moment that it was just it was amazing um do you think Tamlin will ever have a full redemption arc I don't know it's tricky because I've had so many women especially including some like very dear friends of mine have like come up and told me about like how they saw their own abusive relationship mirrored in Tamlin and so if I were to ever write like more about Tamlin it would be done in a way where like it doesn't erase what he has done it and it doesn't like invalidate the feelings of like my readers who have connected to that like I would like it would have to be done in a way that was genuine to him and to reality but also like well aware of like what he means for like different types of people and different experiences and to honor and respect them for that and like I don't usually like let those things dictate what I write but it's something like one of my very best friends is like a survivor of domestic abuse and like you know she often refers to her ex as Tamlin and like I've actually talked to her about like how would you feel like you know like like if just like me is the create like separating us as friends like would that feel like a betrayal to you um and so like we've had like interesting conversations about but it's something I'd really want to think about and I've given myself like several options um because it's something that's probably like the hardest thing for me to figure like to be quite honest like that's tricky for me it's tricky for me also just emotionally because like part of me wants to be like that fucker can burn in hell forever but like as a writer I'm like but like what is the story that I what what is like and like not to excuse him for any of it but it's so lorit I love hearing your thought process though because again it's like this world and then pulling out of it like they are such like real themes and then also hearing the dynamic like I'm curious how did you obviously Reese is the highest pay in existence and so how high is your hottest both both both Sarah how did you decide like how favor was going to maintain her autonomy in that type of relationship I mean that should be just like a given thing in any relationship regardless of like who has power and what and like I don't know I'm not attracted to fucking assholes like my husband and I have been together actually since I was 18 for all my like crapping on like you know like people should have multiple romantic partners my husband was like my first and only boyfriend um yeah but like heat we are equals we are partners in this and like I don't like I think I just demand that like the females in my books like have those relationships of like respect and like partnership just like because that's what I demand like of myself and what I expect of myself and like that's what I had that's the gift that I've been given is someone that like respects me and like honors me and like loves me and like the power dynamic say I'm like you know like I don't know it's kind of like I think it's like really kind of hot that like the super powerful dude like wants to get on his knees in front of this late like like she is in control of him 100% but even if she doesn't want control over him she wants a partner like she doesn't want like you know like they do have like a push pull of like sexy like who's in charge or what but like they they ultimately like they want a lover who is also like a best friend that like they can be equal and speak to on an honest level I think the fans perception of resand was really tested when he didn't clearly communicate the risks of what could happen in this pregnancy to her what is your take on that I mean Reese is entitled to like go through his own shit and make his own mistakes and should he have told Farah yes but he was absolutely terrified like faced with like like I don't know like I just tried to just like Reese in that joy like he made a bad choice I think like it was not that like Farah was obviously upset like Nesta thought I was fucked up and like he I love Reese's smoking hot like I love who he is beyond that but like I think it's much more interesting for me as a writer to have him make perhaps a bad call and do it from a place of love and then like be able to reflect later being like maybe I did like the thing here that like the xboy friend like also kind of did and like that's not okay and like what do I learn from it like yeah he's like 500 years old he's still learning yeah like he's never like been like he's never been a mate husband he's never had a pregnant mate he's frantic like he finds out she's been given a death sentence which he's full of joy about it and how do you be that person that takes the joy away like how like and Farah would have wanted to know but I can understand why Reese didn't want to tell her because there was just like he was so desperate to find us like why stress her out until like like he was desperate for a solution and like no and you're right it's so much more interesting to read from that perspective instead of like oh then I tell her and everything like yeah no like they need to have like issue like they're it's true love their mates but like they will like they do have issues that they need to sort out they have they've come from very different backgrounds they're still figuring out the dynamic they're both navigating a whole new scenario and like they can make mistakes both of them can make mistakes what do you think was the most romantic moment you wrote between Reese and Farah? Starfall I think when like she gets like like splattered with like the glitter or whatever like I don't know there's something about that that scene always stands out for me I love like I still hear like like that scene was very much inspired by Florence and the machines Cosmic Love and it's like every time I like hear that song I'm like taken back to like being at the house of wind like seeing how is it so crazy the way that chapter 55 has like everyone's like chapter 55 chapter 55 you're like oh Mike did you know like where what was your headspace when you were writing that I just was like finally they're finally fucking like good like I can't wait for this thing that's why I just like and but like it was like such an emotional release because it was like the build up of the entire backstory that I as the writer had been waiting and waiting waiting to finally like reveal and like I got to get that out of my system and lay it all out there and then like the consummation of that and I just was like this is everything and just was so satisfying so I was like crying but then also just like yeah this is hot it just was but like I and so for it to become like a thing like that actually means a lot to me because that was a scene that I had looked forward to writing for so so long that when I finally came out of me like it's almost exactly like verbatim like the way it poured out of me like not much change between like the initial version of that scene and the published ones like it just means a lot that it connected like it's become a thing oh girl it hit um you mentioned mates and to just quickly go through that because I'm I don't know if we still have people that are listening that aren't familiar with the books I would be shocked you should be going you should be going we're a little two in the weeds but can you just quickly explain like what that means in the world's mates I know it's kind of like your destined true love in a way but it's complicated because there's a biological component to it where like you can be made it to someone that is like not actually your true love like there's like true true mates and then there's kind of like nature made a mistake may like Reese's parents did not love each other like it was not a great relationship um but they were mates and it was like like there's a biological thing where they're like we want to be together but then it's like we're fucking miserable with each other especially his mom so it's like it's tricky but then when you find your perfect mate like Reese and Farah Cassian that's like that is like the like last little piece of your soul that was like kind of a little broken and is now like you you found your person but the rejecting of mates is Elaine rejecting the bond with Lucian I think Elaine's got like her own trauma and shit that she's going through right now I mean like imagine like being transformed into like a whole new body a whole new life that like you are gone from like I I don't know and like the human world there like what 60 years is a good life to suddenly like centuries like a millennium like the world looks very different and like surprise like you've been like forcibly like essentially married to like a stranger who also was like involved in bringing you into this world and like betraying you and like shoving you into the culture it's like a lot she's crossed she's got a lot of shit that she's processing and so like exploring like a concept of a free will like what does that look like with a mating bond what like what does that mean and like does nature like get it wrong sometimes does it get it right somehow like what and like that again like as a writer I have to be like very I'm like I like to like find things that like make me interested like no it's made it to someone and like you don't want to be mated I'm like look like what what do you do like you're stuck with this person like what like what do you do but like I mean the guys like hot but it's like what if it's not like you don't not like it's just it's something that like I really like find to be an interesting concept versus like pharah and nesto is so easy for them like nature picked right um but I was thinking also when we were talking about chapter 55 and all the things like I is it true that your grandmother reads these books oh my god yes um I don't know what's worse my grandma or my mother-in-law eating them um or your dad my dad well my dad at least has been like we don't speak of this okay um so he won't bring it up no but like but does he read it all he used to I feel like silver flames might have like broken him where he was like this isn't for me anymore uh back to the newspaper back to the New York Times um but yeah my my grandma reads them like everyone in her like I know she wouldn't like the term nursing home but like like old people's community reads them and so I'm like are you all getting like frisky like reading this it's like she's 95 years old she's amazing she she is like my number one like icon in my life oh my god um but like she's gotten like all the people reading it we did she ever give you feedback no but then like on the opposite end of that my mother-in-law has like grilled me and been like are like the sex scenes in this inspired by you and Josh and I'm like yeah when I'm like faking your son I am writing down notes would you like me to describe everything for you Linda she's like yes I'm like no no no I'm like we we don't talk about these things that is it's more fun what are grandma and mother-in-law's favorite series I think I don't know actually for grandma I don't know she's read like all of it but like on it I feel like my mother-in-law probably loves a guitar who's her does she love resand yes I think she like pretends that it's like Josh even though it's not he's not she's like oh Josh Josh like no mom it's not me no no it is not the number of times I've had to say like it is not he does not they have both have dark hair and that's it that's it that's the only similar I think that's so funny because like I have had that where people because I have talked about sex on my platform people feel comfortable to come up to me and talk about sex yeah have you had any like really wild interactions where people are whether they're asking details more about the character sex or they're asking you about sex um oh god I'm trying to think of what I mean like I had a mother come up to me like a like 50 something year old mother and be like I just want to say like my daughter loves your books and you've completely like revolutionized her sex life and I was like well I'm sure she appreciates you telling me that because you're like amazing I was like I love that your daughter but I also was like I kind of love that you guys have this dynamic we're like you know about this right I'm like I think that's really cool but also like I don't know what to say to you as the mother of this child who's maybe though it is so um there's a weird thing maybe because it is fantasy there is like it kind of is the it bridges the gap of just like episode three of color daddy me being like this is how you give head and then like meanwhile with like reset and favor and tamlin all these dynamics it's a little bit more like yeah like it's it can you can ease the blow when you find out that your mother or your sister or your friend is reading it yeah you know like I actually learn probably more about sex from like books and stuff because it just seemed a lot less scary to me and felt like very safe and like connected to like things like plot in the world and so like that was like how I like learned like I would not have like so I think you're I think you're absolutely right so you're in Los Angeles yes you're here for call her daddy yes but I need to ask you a pretty pointed question okay I feel like you've like asked me a lot of intense questions so I'm very eager to hear what you could be okay I think we need to address your Instagram post which one Alex well Sarah the one that quite literally lit the internet on fire where fans could not tell if it was an arrow or if it was a six to eight like everyone has been freaking out and so I have the pleasure of sitting across from you and so I have to ask okay Sarah what is going on okay well first of all I guess I have really shitty handwriting like really fucking shitty handwriting if my like arrows and like numbers look messed up like I'm ashamed of this like that was not intentional at all um but I will say that that was AkaTar 6 with the arrow pointing forward indicate like things going ahead of that um and it is for the next AkaTar book which is coming out on October 27th of this year um I've been working and working on that it's been a long time coming um it's something that I it took me a long time to write um just because there were enough things going on in my life that I had to like sort through and I had to like and I got like I will talk about that perhaps in more detail one I've already cried once today don't be able to get out I don't yeah I like my makeup state intact let's not push it um but that it's taken a while because it took me a while to find the right story and to be in the right headspace um and then like what poured out of me was this and it poured out like very quickly um I was in Montana the summer and like I don't know like I think there's like some kind of like energy vortex like around big sky because like I just got there and like it clicked it all came out of me so like talking about like deadline like that's what I was working on like I've been working on like this next project um not gonna tell you the title yet but like it's or like cover any of that no like I've seen I've seen some of it and I'm can you tell us length I mean it is I mean no I don't want to say I mean I feel like ever I mean like it's long it's long you can't tell us whose POV it's from um no and that was one of the like surprising things for me and like writing this and like what came out it like it's I you get a lot of like insight into like various things like it's okay hold on though because if I know anything about you you all there's always a plot twist okay you've always got something also that's like oh you thought this but also this so is there anything else you want to share here on call her daddy today okay well part of why I guess it's tricky to talk about the length of this book is because this book's coming out October 27th and then on January 12th like two months later I can't do math whatever that is the next act of tarot book will be coming out so there will be two books within like a very short span um and what that means in giving you like a glimpse into this project it's just the story that was finally ready to come out of me was big really really really big and as I started writing this in like this like Montana like energy vortex like it came out of me in a way that surprised me and by the time I reached like you know I like to do like parts in like part one part two but at the time I got to like the end of part one it was like 400 pages long and there is a certain reality to books like Kingdom of Ash like had to be like two pages that's because like the glue will not hold books together but like what I was writing felt right like that was what the story that needed to be told and so I decided I wasn't going to approach this project from a you know traditional format of a book and what if this story like what if this book was really fucking long like what if it took me more than a thousand pages to tell the story that needed to be told the arc that I wanted to create from start to finish what if that took a long time like what if that took beyond the constraints of a single volume and what does that look like how do I tell that story and so part one was this huge huge thing and then I realized it was going to be four parts a book told in four parts so then I wrote part three part two and part three and those were really fucking long and so like and then part four is yet to be written because I'm right now I'm trying to just get part one which is out in October and then parts two and three which would be out in January is like one combined thing so it's basically going to be like three physical volumes but it's like one thing altogether that like no amount of glue in like any publishers like factory could ever like hold this so it's meant to be read ideally as like one massive massive story as opposed to like in like a trilogy it's not a trilogy like arcs aren't like wrapped up it's like in the way like you know you take my book it's like if you expand it all apart one all apart to all apart like all apart like it would be huge like that and so I just decided like I've never told a story that way this is how it wants to come out why do I have to be held back by the realities of like the glue that we need to hold like hold the pages in or just like placement on a shelf and like how do I get this story out to my readers who've been waiting like so patiently like as soon as I can like I could not live with the idea of like publishing part one and then being like you got to wait like a year for like then I was like no like I want that in everyone's hands and so that's why we're doing like this like back-to-back release so there's gonna be like a lot of Akatar in a very short time um and then eventually like the conclusion will be like written like once once like I want to get these like I don't want anyone to wait any longer um but it's like it's a different it's you know it's Akatar but just I'm telling it in a way that's exciting to me and like gives me like the space that the story demanded and the characters demanded um oh yeah I'm trying and I'm sure everyone's trying to do this right now I'm trying to rack my brain around like every Easter egg you just gave us of like who's what story needs to be told all of like the way that it's being formatted but like I cannot wait for October I am so excited that you because the last time you came out was 2021 with the last Akatar? Yeah yeah I think it's co-visit oh my god that was so long so I know it's been and that's and that's why I was like I'm not playing by anyone else's rules like this is like I want the most important thing for me is to write these stories the way they need to be told but to also like honor my fans who like make all this possible and like I'm not playing by like industry rules I'm not playing by like marketing what I'm doing like what feels organic and like good for me and like my my readership and like I want to do it in a way that's fun and like we can all like have a great time like where it's just like the story will unfold like in the way it's like and the fat in the way that I feel like would be the most fun to like for all of us like come together and be like oh like what's going on and I am like what the fuck are you doing over there like I don't see there's a lot of scheming happening and what was it like coming back to the Akatar series and like writing and getting your head in this it was obviously like hard and again there's like an element to it where I'm like okay like shit that was like tricky like unrelated to the books but related to the books that I had to like navigate and like figure out um and I wasn't ever going to force myself to write a book because like that doesn't make a good book um but I'm also someone who like I take no shit from myself or I'm like if I feel like I have writers walk I'm like like get your ass in the chair and work but this was different this was different this wasn't like me like just while like this was this was a level of like I needed to get something sorted out first and so this came out like when I was when it was ready to come out when I was right like when this right story hit me like it hit me hard and I had a vision from the start of like what it would be how I would deliver it to you guys and like that's what I want to do and like getting to be in the driver's seat and decide like this is how I want to tell stories and like if I want to adapt it for like every new book or like just like arc I can do that like I can I can do that and like why not like why can't we tell like why do we have to like stick to like these boxes of like this is how you tell a story from A to B I'm like no like what if we do something different like I am like what are you up to over there I can't oh my god the theories are gonna go crazy oh my god I'm like what what did you do well now I'm thinking that I'm just like I'm juggling editing yeah two books at once two massive massive books at once so I'm just like you're in that's that's why I'm like pounding like Diet Coke's and coffee okay we're almost done I we are gonna end with some rapid fire okay and I don't know if you'll answer any of these okay but I'm gonna try okay because I'm a fan okay and I've got to try for the girls okay okay okay okay so shut me down but shut me down easy okay we're gonna start from the beginning we're gonna start with the run of glass what did lorken do oh someone explain this to me like the like a couple months ago I don't know I didn't I didn't know how to feel about it then I don't know how I feel about it now I mean like maybe like bonus content and like surprise present Christmas present sometime for all y'all okay where is Vaughn you know that's actually a thing that I think about a lot a lot and that's all I'll say about that okay is the settling the same or similar as the drop I don't I don't you're asking okay let's skip just skip just skip just go go go you're like skip just say skip if you can't answer it why did alyn have to lose her powers I mean I do think that like I actually really grappled with that one or I was like I hate the idea of her having to give up something that she learned to love and embrace but at the same time like I do think that like they're needed there needs to be some level of sacrifice when it comes to making a decision like that big to give up something that you love for something else like that's powerful and I don't think it would the ending would have felt as deserved but then I also think it opens up again am I like endless thinking about things like just in me as her creator and writing this like what does it look like for her after that you know like you go from like all this power then you give it up and like how does that feel like I just I find that there was like even with that as an ending it felt like a different start of like a journey for me that just like was fascinating for me I feel like people online have expressed frustration that some of the female characters like her and Nesta have had to sacrifice their powers and strength well you know male characters have not what is your response to that like these books are about women coming into their power and but also like taking away the magic doesn't take away from their strength and I think like that's what like Nesta and Aileen realizes that like they're still fucking bad asses and I think that's why it's so easy for Nesta in the end because she's like I this wasn't that's didn't define her and she's still like she's still Nesta and so like losing that like doesn't make you any less of a hero doesn't make you any less strong love it yeah okay will we ever see our throne of glass characters again I mean obviously I've told I think about them all the time so who knows there's got it my children let me sleep in past five a.m. sure perfect kids come on Josh get it together um where is Monon now I mean is she working to rebuild the waste like what are we doing I mean she's honestly she should be in therapy okay that's where she is right now let's assume she's in therapy because she went through a lot a lot what happened to the world of throne of glass book will that ever be released that wound up being a project that I wanted I thought would be easy and then I realized like no like I need to actually like I this means a lot to me and I need to dedicate a lot of time but I don't have that time because I want to focus on getting these books the actual books out so maybe that's something that I like it's still something I want to do but maybe it comes at a different time all right Akatar why is there a pool of starlight in the spring court is it a portal who thinks of these things you I mean I do I do look at that read too close like I don't know I don't I'm not answering okay I'm not answering that okay how do they get into the house of wind because they don't have wings like do they climb the stairs this might be something that you find out okay what is resans last name I'm not telling anyone there's so much pressure now does it even matter no I mean like he's one of one okay right what is the king of hybrids actual name red frank rank actually yeah because actually that actually might be something that we can find out that is discussed okay what are more's powers like truth truth but you like have other powers beyond that but I don't I'm not gonna reveal anymore about there might be more about that I know I'm just trying to get things out of you know what everything is possible everything you're asking me right now could just be like yes yes the answer is yes you'll find out okay um can you tell us anything about the desk court and are you gonna explore any of it in your next book I can't be do you have to know like what do you want me to say Alex when you want me to say here I love you what do you want me to say okay okay we're moving on I just if anything I'm just getting pleasure out of asking you don't even need to answer okay um tell me if I'm pronouncing this right where did rye access go go that was good thank you um I mean where do you think she went what do you think she is up to I mean fear itself what is that like uh huh where does that go who is mama archeron is she a descendant of the iron teeth which is you're like you're putting me like an alcohol and drink here I mean like I need wine I need a spicy margarita okay we're going to crescent city okay we never saw the body so is korea make actually dead where did you find these all of me my friends putting this together be like this is the time of our life I can like see you with like like string and like putting the man like my husband was like what's this episode I'm like don't worry about it what isn't it exactly our Bryce and hunt endgame yes what I don't what where does that come out well there are a lot of theories that Bryce's true mate is as real is there any truth to that no I can I can tell you right I'm sorry to anyone that shipped that and has been like right or die with that but like no I'm right it's Bryce and hunts okay um how did the book of breathings and the walking dead end up in jesibas library I don't know you don't have to stay tuned okay answers there are a lot of theories that Reese and ruin are related can you confirm or deny you're like fuck off you can say fuck off I'm not saying that I like you I'm not gonna okay fair fair is made related to any of them I mean like what like I feel like I should just hand over my notebooks to you and you can like comb through them for like all the little notes that I've made yeah okay I have to ask why are there otters in crescent city why aren't there otters it's like what well their otters are one of my favorite animals like I lose my shit like river otters sea otters I don't know why I lose it and so I just was like what's the cutest thing that like an otter could do and it's like kind of like an aquatic like you know like city like what if otters were just like messengers but they're little paws handing letters I love that you're like I just put it in there because I like it I just sound cute to me okay I just sound cute um okay who or what is theory ax tar is that she the mercenary that favora met in the first act of tar okay these are like again these questions that are like you're asking me things that I'm not sure if I could should confirm or deny or just like let let people am I ruining people's dreams by answering these things I don't know um we've all seen the now deleted twilight of the gods Pinterest board really what's going on there that was just like a story that I like it was kind of like crescent city where like I always have like manuscripts and other stories in my head like I think I have probably like three or four like unpublished full books for like different series like on my computer that just like I don't know if they'll ever see the light of day but like sometimes I just get a story in my head and like I want to start writing it and like I like get like ideas for it and it comes out and sometimes I want to share that with the world and sometimes I don't okay who would win in a fight Bryce alyn phara or manan they wouldn't fight they would all be like this is dumb we should support each other and let's go get like in and out burger together okay you obviously are in a success and like a league of your own you've had just like such an incredible career already and I know we've talked about the pressures and also the beauty of it how do you define success at this point in your career I mean for me it's two things success is two things one it's getting to tell the stories that I want to tell how and when I want to tell them that's a gift that's a that's a wonderful blessing to have that's all I ever wanted from when I was a kid but it's also like am I happy am I happy in my life doing this am I like what is the balance and like have I like do I feel successful in that do I feel like I'm able to create from a place of joy and curiosity and excitement while also having a life that is like fulfilling and fun and like I get to be a mom to these two incredible kids and like a wife to like an awesome husband like and like what like that like having that and finding joy from that from things outside of my books that feels successful to me like I've built something beautiful completely unrelated to that but yeah it is so beautiful and also like what is so cool too is like you have completely changed the way that people think about Romantic books and you have given essentially legitimacy I feel like to an entire genre that was either dismissed or overlooked at one point how do you feel about your legacy in the literary world this is going to sound like silly and you probably like won't believe me but just like talking about things like legacy is like beyond for me when I started writing when I started trying to get published like I told myself like you know anytime I got a rejection you know I was rejected by every single agent except one every single publisher except one and those times I told myself it didn't matter if it took me until I was 90 years old to publish a book if it wasn't the book I was trying to get published I'd write the next one and the next one and the next one until it happened and so like I was willing to have a life where like just one book eventually made it and that's was like and that still was kind of like that was the dream and so everything else beyond then has been insane like insane to me because I'm still very much that like girl in middle school or high school like sneaking off to like watch anime or like drool over like a list and like getting to go like play in these worlds in my head and like do the thing that like makes me come alive every day is like that's incredible and so like talking about like these books going beyond that and meaning something and like playing whatever role they have and like letting other similar books like get out there and like be appreciated and those like authors be appreciated like that that's all like I just like I feel very very blessed very humbled like I I love that people are reading like people like I mean as a kid I just wanted someone to read my shit and be like it's good like that's all I wanted um I also think it's such a great inspiring story because someone like you again like a lot of times we get the success stories right you're sitting here and you're so well known and you've had such such success but a lot of people could be sitting right now watching this being like I've wanted to be a writer or I've wanted to be whatever it be and when you are told no so many times yeah that can be depleting and the fact that you are where you are today even though people looked at you being like you're insane yeah this isn't going to work you had people in jobs looking you enrolled their eyes about writing fantasy right and look at the empire that you've built like what an incredible testimony to women listening of like if anything I genuinely believe that when people are telling you that you're crazy for wanting to start something or do something and they're all looking at you kind of cross-eyed yeah that is like your first indicator that you're on to something incredible oh yeah oh yeah anytime someone told me I couldn't do something I would say watch me hmm just watch me you said you're like I'll send the book one day yeah yeah where are they now yeah where are they now and just like I don't know like I wrote the thing that I love like I wrote the stuff that I love that I've always loved and like I was always flabbergasted that anyone especially like older adults would tell like a young person like like it's not worth your time it will never happen I'm like why can't we all be support of our dreams and like but thankfully like I knew what I wanted like I knew this was what I wanted to do and so there was nothing that was gonna stop me from that um but I also was willing to like if it took me till I was 90 that was just what I want just one book that came out when I was 90 years old like that would have been wonderful and look how many you have and more to come and more to come I cannot thank you enough for sitting down with me I'm sure you can feel I could have kept going like I have so I could say I'm very comfortable right now like I have so many questions there's so many like world building questions and character arcs and I recognize I was trying to do a balance of getting to know you also getting into your psyche and I think we we found a good balance of the themes in your life that have inspired some of these incredible worlds and characters um but it was really fun to sit down with you because I've been a fan from afar and now getting to sit with you I feel even more invested weirdly and I'm like now I need to go back and read all these before October no pressure I'm very glad that I didn't like disappoint you and you were like she was the worst than like the most boring thing when we turn out the cameras make oh we in one more question another question another question going to Montana after you want to come to Montana let's go we're going on Montana let's go I'll show you the the vortex where everything where you wrote it all yes I'll show you the magic vortex Sarah thank you so much for coming on call it out he was an honor it was actually an honor for I mean like we talked about like me and like all like what you have done like again like my friends don't give a shit about me I mean like they do they're proud of me but like me coming on here like this was a big big deal for them and like thank you for making me feel cool but you are cool I don't know about I mean you are you are you are literally so cool and you are building worlds I don't that all of us are obsessed with I don't know what could be a cooler job like what you have in your brain has made all of us into this insane fandom like bow down to you great work great work