Sarah Bjorknas on the Vancouver Catholic Worker Community

What's the use of two strong legs to be only run away? And what you say is the finest voice when you've got anything good to say What good is strength and muscle? Give the only push and shove And what's the use of two good ears when you can't hear those you love? It's not just what you're born with, it's what you choose to bear And it's not how bigger share is But how much you can share And it's not the fight you dreamed of But those you're really fun It's not what you've been given, it's what you do and what you've got Yeah, it's not just what you're born with, it's what you choose to bear And it's not how bigger share is But how much you can share And it's not the fight you dreamed of But those you're really fun It's not what you've been given, it's what you do and what you've got Hello everyone And welcome back to Seeds of Revolution We have a very special episode for you today My name is Luke And I'm Karina Karina is a special return guest Sitting on the other side of the table from microphone We are here in so-called Vancouver Musqueam Squamish and Slowtooth Territory To talk to the Catholic worker And to Sarah and to learn more about the Catholic worker movement And the Samaritan House here Do you want to introduce yourself? I'm Sarah Bjarpis I co-founded the Vancouver Catholic worker with Victoria Marie in 1998 And I've lived here ever since with many humans And many critters So what is the Catholic worker movement It's a Christian anarchist movement That was started in New York in the 1930s With Dorothy Day and Peter Morin Dorothy Day was journalist And writer, seeker, socialist And she was very interested in what People's struggles were And then, and had a very interesting and full life Encounter Catholicism and recognized in it How the church was more than just worshipping philosophy But it was a source of community and support for Particularly immigrant communities Obviously all settlers And recognized the work that they did in trying to level The world for those who were not the money class So she tried to find an intersection between her politics And that worship she I think she was raised in Anglican So there was some connection there And someone put her in touch with Peter Morin Who was this older fellow interesting French guy Who was all about the philosophy of Anarchism and Socialism And the connection with the ancient church And so he took it about himself to teach her To the history and the social justice part of the Catholic faith And came up with this sort of plan for How people should live There should be a house of hospitality And every parish There should be a roundtable discussion for the clarification of thought And there should be what ended up being called Agronomic Universities which was where Scholars would work alongside workers to produce food But then but there would be learning So learning and working together on the land So that was the grand plan They started with a newspaper called the Catholic worker And they wrote about these things And it was the 30s And people were hungry and struggling So folks got together and were feeding people Dorsey was living with her daughter With her brother and his family in an apartment And they started feeding people out of there And then people started showing up and saying Is this the Catholic worker house of hospitality that's been written about And they're like Okay And that's essentially how it started And those are the sort of the things So the newspaper represents the roundtable idea But there was also like they would also organize meetings and gatherings And many communities do that on a regular semi-regular basis Just gather people to discuss and study and etc The houses of hospitality obviously that probably the most visible part of the movement Where people live in community together Sort of pledge, voluntary poverty And do various kinds of service Whatever makes sense, whatever is needed, whatever their skill is there And there's a few Catholic worker farms Over time there's still a sum that exists But that has turned out to always been like a harder community to build and maintain So yeah, that's the essence of the movement And it's a movement Not a like anyone can say they're a Catholic worker And they're just like, oh, I want to you know, I want to gather some people to discuss these ideas I want to live in community with some people and share what we have And try to serve our neighbors And nobody will say you can't And communities pop up and go away As they have the ability to say, sustain themselves Do you have to be Catholic to be a Catholic worker? You do not And it came out of people whose, that's whose their faith Once in I think a lot of them still are But not everyone in a community like has to be Catholic And not every community even starts that way I mentioned to you earlier there's a 30 years ago When we were sort of exploring this There was a community in Seattle And I think initially it was a Catholic family who started that But by that point all of the people who were involved were either Buddhist or non-inservant to anything And there was a community It's I think no longer in want to say Atlanta I think And we jokingly refer to them as the Protestant worker They were, they were a beat-back test They essentially were doing all the same thing with the same philosophy They did prison outreach and abolition work and all that kind of stuff With this, you know, the same approach and they had a newspaper And so yeah, people called them the Protestant worker Can you tell me more about the tenants or the principles of the Catholic worker? I'm curious when you say people don't have to be Catholic to join What is the binding force behind? The baseline scriptural is the works of mercy So the corporal and spiritual works of mercy Which don't ask me to list them out I'm going to rip it down Okay, I guess I know I have them on our website probably somewhere But yeah, so there's those basic physical Feed the hungry, clovey naked, visit the imprisoned Okay, I have them here Okay, corporal works Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, give alms to the poor Shelter them homeless, care for the sick Visit the imprisoned and bury the dead And then the other side is the spiritual works Which involves council the doubtful Instruct the ignorant, admonish the sinner, comfort the sorrowful Forgive injuries, bear wrongs patiently And pray for the living and the dead Yeah, so like take them and run with them basically That's the core of the people get together And they want to do those things and they figure out how to do them Yeah Where does the name worker come from in Catholic workers? Is that an illusion to the Catholic laborer or is it more of a like a proletarian working class thing or where does it work? I think the second I think for sure And there was some I can't recall notes I haven't really thought about it in a long time But there was some sort of debate About what to call the paper and the movement It ended up being called that But I think at one point it was the There was an S like the Catholic workers And so yeah, so it was sort of a practical and philosophical Like this is like the workers are the majority And these are the people who are all on the same level But they're getting shit on all the time And so there's yeah, so there's philosophy behind that But then there's those core core works of mercy Like let's look after each other Yeah How long have you been involved with the Catholic worker movement and when did you decide to transform your home into a hospitality house? I learned about Catholic worker from Vicki Well, sometimes Sometimes in the mid 90s There was a woman Lisa Wagner He used to do a one woman play about Dirty Day And she came to town And so I That was I didn't know anything about it before that Vicki knew because she grew up in Brooklyn And so then I started reading Red Dirty's biography And along loneliness Like red whatever I can get my hands on Which was not a lie not a lot. It's really not a concept that's known much out here in the last course. are in Canada. So yeah, so it sort of sparked my imagination. Obviously it was something that interested Vicki because she was part of an organization that sponsored the play and she had some knowledge. Not really like she wasn't really aware of it as a kid of Dorothy and the thing that did stick out to her is in the 50s in New York that so the original Catholic worker houses were in New York and they're still there. But they in the 50s it was mandatory for people to do civil defense because they were all worried about nuclear war and so they would have these like drills where people had to go into like the subways or whatever because you know get under the desks or whatever. So Vicki remembers those drills and remembers that the Catholic worker and Dorothy would protest them by going to the park and having a picnic and said go in whatever says ago. So that's what she remembered about about a Catholic worker. So like everything I heard and read sort of sparked more interested imagination. We Vicki and I went to Milwaukee to a conference celebrating the centenary of Dorothy's birth where scholars and Catholic workers got together and put on workshops and gave presentations and there's a we have the book now with the essays from it. So then like learned lots from that and I was reading the long loneliness like during that time and a vivid vivid memory was flying back from there with Vicki reading the book. I wasn't finished yet and I looked over at Vicki and I said we could do this. I didn't really know what that meant but it was like we could do we could do something like this. So when we got back we started organizing just like calling to people that we knew and said hey Zane we want to get together and talk about the idea of a Catholic worker and so we did that for a while. Vicki was working at one of the local churches at the time and so had access to the sort of the church communication network like my facts. That's how old we are. That would have been in the 90s like probably 97. And so we did up a one one-pager double-sided newsletter and said you know okay we want to do a Catholic worker like is anybody know of a house to rent or rent or I didn't even know that concept of rent owned but Vicki had a real understanding of the precariousness of renting and then to rent and like invite strangers into your house would be like you know you'd be under extra scrutiny and so you don't want it that precarity. So whatever anyways it was sort of like a hey how you know who wants to talk about this who has some connections who you know and weirdly the only person who ever contacted us about that was a Catholic woman who it turned out I knew her daughter from university like a little bit. She's a real estate agent and so she phoned Vicki I guess and and then Vicki told me and I'm like why are we talking to a real I don't understand like I'm gonna buy a house my mom my mom's will real estate at the time like farms and like not high-powered stuff and she can never respond to me like why would you want to buy anything in your 20s like anyways so we set up this meeting and I was like why are we talking to a real estate person like I don't get it anyways so she put us in touch with this other Catholic guy who is a mortgage broker and you know because the I work in the public library so I have like a public sector halfway do some paying job Vicki had a half-a-thesed paying job we ended up buying a house like that wasn't the plan necessarily but that's what I did that happening so that was the only thing that happened out of that sort of newsletter original newsletter and then we figured we met with people and tried to figure out like who would live in the house originally Vicki wasn't gonna live here she felt she was too old to set in her ways didn't want to live with a bunch of people but she did so yeah so the house this house was never anything other than a Catholic worker house for the last 28 years can you explain what a hospitality house is for the folks who don't know oh well I mean it is basically just being open to offering shelter to someone in like not in any kind of institutional way not for any kind of fees some people in the movement you know refer to having a a Christ room like a way to do to offer hospitality if you maybe not in community but you have a spare room is to be like just be open when you aware that somebody needs a home we willing to like let them live in your home with you and that's basically what we try to create is just a family home where people live now when you invite strangers and and you may or may not know anything about them like you encounter everything like all kinds of physical and mental health challenges or like personalities and all that stuff it happens but but just the openness to be willing and to do it in a non institutional way this is essentially it and the way I explain it to like people at work who I'm not going to go into the whole like this with Catholic work areas it's like it's just like trying to be family to people who don't have family around or don't have their family anymore either literally or metaphorically you know like when shit goes down people often turn to or are offered help by various members of their family because that's what you do but not everybody has that because they're literally across the world or across the country or like there's a divide and it's not an option or they're not around anymore so just like being that landing spot so that's what it means for us anyways I mean there's other other communities that are like larger and maybe a little more not institutional but a little more maybe regimented and have more structure to how they do what they do but because we were always small it was always like me and Vicki and maybe one other person who was like potentially living in community and then everybody else is like I guess until they stick around long enough and then their community member can you tell us more about Vicki? Ah yeah sure Vicki was born in Brooklyn in 1945 she was African-American with a little bit of she think she found out later like a little bit of Cherokee and her parents weren't married her mom's family was Catholic so she went to Catholic school but because her parents weren't married and she was black it was not the best experience for her but she went to 12 years Catholic school he said I remember you say she was the only black kid in the school I think yeah most of the time she was the only black kid in school and she wanted to be a nun but there was only one order in the US who would expect except black women but she was illegitimate so that was out of the out of the so she used to joke about she she did spend some time in what she called the wayward girl school so she was not always well behaved she was never well behaved with me so and she migrated fairly young up to Canada to Montreal and then Ottawa and then came out to Vancouver in like the 70s she struggled with alcoholism until she was in her 40s and she got sober and she got sober she found some cool women in the church here the Franciscan sisters of the Atonement connected with them so connected back with the church and then went to university because that's what she always wanted to do so she was basically a perpetual student from that point on data bachelor's and masters and sociology and psychology did a master's or whatever it is in pastoral studies or to be a spiritual you know a company person then went and did a doctorate in educational studies and her her thesis the thing that she published was about the role of spirituality and addiction because of her personal experience but also living and working in the downtown east side and connecting with people and their stories and then she became she came a Franciscan and a very unique order that I think I think doesn't exist now but they were the Franciscans sisters of joy so they were two Franciscans they didn't own any property all so they had to look after their own needs and they didn't live in community they lived wherever they were but they came together a couple times a year and and lived a Franciscan Charism as they call it but then she found the Roman Catholic women priest movement and realized she had a calling to be a priest and she had basically all the education she had to do a little bit of extra stuff to like get her level up or whatever but she the end the way the Roman Catholic women priest work is you There has to be a community, like a parish that calls you to be a priest, and then you ask the bishop toward ordain the priest. So some of, well, actually, yes. Core members of this community, like not people who had always looked here at me and a couple of other people who were always supporters and comrades, got together and wrote the letter to the bishop and said, we have a church we're calling it, our lady of Guadalupe Tonensin, and we want the key to be our priest, so ordainer. And so that happened. So the church was part of our community, but also separate, like they were coexisting things, and lots of crossover between the communities, and it was a church for people who didn't have church, and people who were excluded who were queer or divorce and remarried, or all those things that are excluded from the Catholic church. So the worship style was in the Catholic liturgy style, but small in the round and using inclusive language. So the language was rewritten to be feminized or inclusive. And yeah, so you did that for how long? 10, 14 years-ish maybe? Till her health was not good, and she retired, we retired the church. Yeah. Can you paint a little bit bigger of a landscape for me of the downtown east side, and you talked a little bit about before the interview with Mary's place, and just some of the going ons before the Catholic workers started, like what was that seed where you all made those relationships for this to happen? Yeah, a lot of that was down to Vicki because of the work where she worked and what she did, because I worked at the library for like 30 years, so, and but like came to the community as a someone who's drawn to the community and the people in the community. So Vicki worked in the Catholic churches. There's a couple of Catholic churches that are the downtown east side parishes that have that have been like usually each church has a priest and and the bishop directs that that priest, but some churches have priests that are from orders. So like Franciscans or oblates or like so they have they sort of have this other relationship where they have their own community and the church poobos say out you can look after these churches. There still are churches, but you can be the ones working in them. So the so St. Paul's on Cordova Street and Sacred Heart on Kiefer were those two churches that are connected and served by the same priest, and so there were some there over the years have been some very cool oblate priests there. The oblates are not there anymore. And they had direct connection like literally the building St. Paul's, ob St. Paul's on Cordova was connected to the the sisters of the Atonement and the sisters did food service and at one point in the past they had daycare. So over the years like they were very well known for being very open and compassionate in in the community. So that's you know Cordova and and Jackson. So it's goes Jackson Gore Main Street. So it made every no's main in Hastings and sort of the central. So that's I mean so the Catholic there's on Cordova. There's the Catholic Church of St. Paul's and it was the sisters of the Atonement. It's different different group now. And on the on the opposite corner is St. James which is an Anglican church and then two blocks over was first United Church which is like was it church that turned into a shelter and is there now building social housing on that site. And then there's a few other there's a few other church communities that are all connected. So the church the Christian churches and in the community had connections and communicate with each other and serve the population in a variety of ways. St. James Anglican has a street priest so Father Matthew goes out and like has relationships with people on Tocqueville and figure out what's going on and assist where they can and those kind of things. So that's the sort of the environment of these and some other church folks. So Vicki was doing some administrative work for the Catholic parish and so had access to and part of her work was working with these populations. For me what drew me down to the neighborhood which is how I met Vicki was the sisters of the Atonement and some of the service they did. So the church that I was attending there was a little tiny connection and I took it and ran with it and then encountered this very cool priest, Father Bob Douglas, who had started a Sunday night service that was like essentially for younger people but it wasn't all young people but it was in a very different style. It was like up on the altar and churches or just chairs around the altar and like more relaxing casual and a shared homily and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, "woo okay, maybe the church is okay." This is like this church is okay and Bob is very cool because he was someone who didn't like go from high school and disseminate and become a priest like he had a life and then decided to become a priest so he had some context of like living in the world and I think that made a makes a big difference when people kept some lived experience before they jumped into service. So yeah so that's sort of what drew me and then kept me connected and kept me moving in these circles that connected with those circles. So often the people that would come and stay here were referred by our various comrades in the neighborhood from the different churches and agencies that serve. Yeah. Okay. Can you reflect a little bit more on having some of that life experience maybe before you enter a professional role in faith like you talked to me a little bit about how you know I'm looking at Art of Dorothy Day and she's smoking and they talk about the history of her having an abortion and maybe like some of Peter is an influences that injected faith into her politics. Can you touch on that a little bit more just what ascended ties as someone to this kind of way? Well, I don't know if I can talk about it. It just makes sense to me that you know like any I would say anything but some things more than others like anything where people are going to be working and relating with people and that's the essence of what you do like like the the relationship you have with people will govern what work you do and what and the things that they need and how you can help. So that's so because I was going to say you know someone who maybe like goes through school and like straight into med school and becomes a doctor. I wouldn't argue that it would be important for them to have like life experience before they become a doctor to make them a better doctor might but like maybe less so for something like that but but when it's when it's religious social work like stuff where it's relational and in the world as opposed to sort of niche in a very particular service content in context is everything right so how you know how can and yeah like it's it's it's a piece of argument that some people make about the Catholic church and priests well a being only men and but be also not being married is like how can single men who have no experience of the world offer relevant advice to people who have five kids and can't pay the rent and you know like yeah and their relationship is breaking down like what maybe they can maybe they have lots of skills but I would say on the majority probably not right so having some experience of life and the struggles of life well at least give you hopefully some empathy or compassion for what others are going through so that you might have an answer and it's a really good answer for what's what someone might need but you might not deliver it in the same way just because oh I know I know that this will work for you as opposed to well here's what I've experienced and I think this will work for you kind of thing I don't know that's not the best example. It just it makes makes sense to me and I mean nothing is ever like a million hundred percent but if it's relational then I think some shared experience is a lot. Yeah you mentioned like how you know the the priest in the Catholic church are like always men and I think like traditional understandings of Catholicism are like a very heavily patriarchal but Catholicism also like seems to hold a particular place for like female figures like the reverence for for Mary and the Mary's. Can you speak a little bit to the Catholic worker movement and intersections with feminist movements and maybe how that's influenced by like the particular places that women hold in Catholic scripture as well. No no that's actually a really good question and I don't know if I can't recall if we ever sort of explored that in the context of the worker movement. - It feels like that would be a conversation I would love to have with Vicki and now we can't anymore. - We talked a little bit this morning about how you guys chose to name your chapter, our lady of Guadalda Bay, Thompson, maybe that ties in a little bit. - Yeah, I mean, for us specifically, there's a feminist interest and context for faith. - Yeah, so I can only speak for us. I can't really speak for other communities that are still around or ones that have been around for a long time. So the people who started them, I don't even know. - Right. - But we started in 1998. - So yeah, I was speaking about the experience that Vicki and I had with the Global Awareness Through Experience project in the Goddess Gate and we went to Mexico and we're exposed to all these images and history of the feminine divine and then did some contemplation of the intersection with Christian feminine theology. - I'm not with theologists. - Vicki, our structure was Vicki was very much the scholar, not just for me, but for me, I learned so much just from hanging out and chatting with her because of all of the interests and the education that she did. But also she was the scholar for the community and of course, as the priest, I said that she was a better writer than a speaker and she would agree with that, but she put a lot of thought and energy and preparation into her sermons to share all that knowledge that she had gleaned from things that she had studied. And so those elements of, yeah, finding all of the places where interpretation of scripture, like has maybe always been one way, but others are looking at it with a feminist lens. But even just pointing out the really obvious stuff that the Holy Spirit is always referred to as a feminine and we talk sometimes about, you know, there's the magic of the number three and the Trinity and all that kind of stuff, which is the mystery of the, you know, it's God, but there's three essences or three, whatever. But sometimes we talked about really it should have been a quad and Mary was the other one. And so, and then that would be a more balanced of the sort of masculine feminine energy. I mean, we didn't go too far down that road, but it was sort of always a thing that we just agreed on. No Jesus without Mary. 100%. That's right. How does the Catholic worker contend with colonialism and the residential school legacy of the Catholic church and churches in Canada? Well, for us as the awareness grew and our intentional self-education grew, it became a big thing for us. I mean, like I say, there may be other Catholic worker communities in Canada. I'm not aware that there have been over time some. So in the Canadian context, I'm not aware of any others, but yeah, for us, there's several reasons why the history of colonialism and our understanding of, you know, BC being mostly untreated territory, which is different than the rest of the country, really started to become part of like our understanding and identity. One of the things that Vicki did for work before she retired from work before being a priest was she did some, she did contract consulting work with community development and stuff. And then the company that she worked for also was contracted to do some of the, how do you even call it like the examining the documentation from the residential school. So the, so the project of looking at the documents for the purposes of like of doing reparations for like through the government. So she had to look at some awful, gross, evil stuff and, and a lot of it was redacted, but like it was still bad, right? So that was part of her work. So she was able to speak about that, like the, the truth. She was exposed to the truth in a way that a lot of people are not like the actual documentation of the schools. So, and, and the downtown east side has, you know, outsized proportion of indigenous people who are people who struggle economically and socially and health wise. So, so it's part of our, it's part of our reality that, and this is like ground zero for the missing and murdered women and girls and two spirited people. Because this is where Robert picked in like ran his operations. So it's very much part of everything, like all of, all even if there wasn't explicit discussion about me because it was all pre-true, some reconciliation commission. The churches had at least some sensitivity around that history, even if there was not any kind of acknowledgement, but it was like, but the people who do the work. Understand and develop ways to be more empathetic and try to provide culturally, culturally sensitive services, I guess. So for us, then some of the round table work that we did was studying books. Like, yeah, there's a few books that we went through that were around settler identity and just like trying to dig into that. And the last one that we did actually, we were doing just before COVID hit and so then, then I figured out a way that we could do it online was unsettling the word. I might have seen that book that we had. So it's reflections on scripture by mostly indigenous people and sort of unpacking it. And sometimes it's just poetry and sometimes it's prose and sometimes it's political. We would just like once a month, we're like, okay, we're going to do this one. And so, and we would do it online. And so even if people didn't have the book or hadn't read it, we would like read through it. And then Vicki and I would talk about it. So, yeah, we tried to try to center that a lot. Do you receive any kind of support from established Catholic church? Or does the diet these? How those finances, their attention with the larger church, do you want to speak on that? So, yeah, so to be very clear, Catholic worker is not part of any Catholic church. Never has never will be. I think some communities do have relationships with like parishes and stuff. And so we actually did have a relationship with the downtown East Side parishes because Vicki was working there and you know, and those were that was where we worshiped for a while anyways. But not financial. And in fact, when we started talking about doing this and the word kind of trickled up because Vicki, because Vicki was working at the downtown East Side parishes and father Bob said that he would sort of be our like spiritual director or whatever because he was totally into Catholic worker also. And so somehow that got up the chain and then there was a phone call to father Bob. It was like, what's going on? And then they can't call themselves Catholic worker. Like actually, we can. And I said, and we'll just spell it with a K and whatever. You know, like pay the long distance fee, call the diocese of New York. They'll explain you what Catholic worker is because it's been around a long time. So yeah, no, they would rather not acknowledge us. We had some relationship though, like with with people who do educate Catholic education through the parishes. And so there was a few years where the Catholic educators in Vancouver, they do a they do like a little conference every year. And so for a couple of years, we were invited to have a table in their sort of exhibit area so that people come and talk to us about it. And then they would have a mass at the end of their thing and the collection, like one time they donated the collection to us. So yeah, so not official, but you know, but like wherever there was like pre-sort church people who like understood it and appreciated it. Like there was that kind of connection. The last Pope Francis and the present Pope Leo seemed to have like changed or shifted the political organization or orientation. The Catholic church, do you think that might like influence how like mainstream Catholic institutions relate to Catholic worker movement? No. Not really. I mean, the Catholic church is a famous. I mean, I said for years it needs to implode and since it's the startover. But but Pope Francis and Pope Leo are definitely like hopeful. Like I never, you know, in the past. In the dark days of Pope Benedict, I never thought we'd have a Pope Francis in a Pope Leo. It's a bit of this saying the quiet part out loud. Finally somebody's saying it, but it's not, I mean, as you can see, the church in the US, like those bishops are not interested in. So whatever, it doesn't really matter because the anarchist piece of Catholic worker is like, we're just organizing from the ground and it really doesn't matter what they're doing up there. And the weird thing about philosophy and religious faith is like, you can stick an institution over a top of it if you want to, but that doesn't really mean anything in terms of people and their relationship to God, or work, creator, or whoever they call. So. And we don't really want official sanction. So, you know, I think it's great. I think, you know, if nothing else, it gives permission to people who like have those thoughts and think, oh, this is, you know, this is not an environment where I can even explore that. Well, maybe people will explore it because like, because people are modeling on some level. Like, oh, we should think about humans differently now. What a novel idea. Starting on your own activities within the Catholic worker movement here, I would like you to respond to a quote from Dorothy Day writing in the Catholic worker magazine in 1949. This is the quote. The word anarchist is deliberately and repeatedly used in order to awaken our readers to the necessity of combating the all encroaching state and to shock serious students into looking into the possibility of another society. In order made up of associations, guilds, unions, communes, voluntary associations of people on a regional, instead of national lines, where this is a possibility of liberty and responsibility for everyone. How does this anarchist mandate inspire your movement? Hmm. Well, it's liberating. I mean, for me, growing up Catholic, I mean, I'm technically not Catholic anymore because as soon as we touched the Roman Catholic women priest movement, we were all excited, especially for like holding churches in our house, whatever. So, yeah. So, that idea was liberating to me. It was like, oh, I can take these ideas of love and mutuality and enact them and I don't need anybody's permission to do it. And I don't need to be part of an official church, especially if that church doesn't behave the way I think it should. And like the other piece of my life that I haven't mentioned other than the fact that I work in public library is that from the beginning of that work, I became involved in my union at work. And that was partly because my dad was a union member and I understood, oh, well, if you're in the union, you go to meetings and when you go to meetings, well, then you get us to do stuff. So, I've been very involved in that all along. And those two things align completely. I mean, you said it in the quote, right? It talks about unions. It's people organizing in the place where they are from their liberation. Yes, unions get pretty bureaucratic, but at the base level, it's somebody got treated shitty and someone else is going to come up along beside you and try to make it right and try to support it, right? That's what we're doing. And that's what we're doing in the community, too. What do you say to those who say anarchism and religion or spirituality cannot coexist? They don't understand anarchism. Can you, are you willing to share a little bit more about your ex-communication from the church? Well, it's assumed because that's just like that's what happened. So if you have, I mean, I don't know if this is still true because it, and it's only because I really don't care. I don't value that. But what I learned in maybe in Catholic school or somewhere else that like, they used to tell us, well, people who had abortion would be excommunicated, right? And for various things. And it's not like they didn't actually send us a paper, kind of wished they had, but they didn't. So yeah, so because the Roman Catholic women priest movement is not, there's all this technical language that the people understood that I don't care about. But it's like not sanctioned. So back when it started, it was some priests who were behind me, Iron Curtain in Eastern Europe, and there was no church. And so male bishop ordained some women so that there would be priests for the people who had village community. And so then when the Iron Curtain came down, it was like, oh, oh, no, we didn't, we don't have those in one place. So that's where that started. So there is, you know, for the, for the technicality of the people who care about the technicality, they were legitimately ordained by a legitimate bishop. And so that's how it sort of has perpetuated, right? And so they, and they do follow some like rules. But because women are, you know, people who are, who they have not said are allowed to be ordained in this church are being ordained and practicing in this way that, and calling the Catholic, well, then they're excommunicated. So in fact, when we planned the ordination for Vicky, we did send out some invitations to people being careful because there's, there's Catholics who appreciate and want this movement, but are still attached to their Catholic faith. And like it, like depending on their role in the world, could put them like in some risk, like say a Catholic school teacher or, you know, somebody who works in a church. So we were careful. We invited friends to come if they wanted to. But someone, somewhere forwarded the invite to the bishop. We had a suspicion about who it was. I can't recall now. Anyways. So Vicky got called in because she was, because she had a connection to the church as a, the Francis Susan sisters of joy were like, they, she was allowed to be a, and done here. Like, you know, everything has to go through the bureaucrat, bureaucracy, like to be official. So she had a connection to those, to all of the other nuns in Vancouver and like she would, they were not, Francis Susan sisters of joy were acknowledged. So they knew who she was. And so, so the, so the bishop called her in for a meeting. And there was one other priest, Roman Catholic woman priest here in BC. She lived over on Main Island. She was sort of Vicky's mentor. So she, so she came over. And the three of us went to the office together because I was like, we're not, she's not going by herself. We're home with our, we should go posse. And to me, like, March in there and we March red in his office with her and he's like, go, I want to talk to Vicky alone. Okay. So we just stood outside and I would like, I was at the time when Twitter wasn't evil. I was like, live tweeting. Oh, we're at the chance, we're the office. So anyways, so he at least knew she had some backup and basically he's, he was very nice to her. He wasn't nasty to her but said, you know, you know, that this is not cool. And I would ask that you not do this. And she's like, okay, you know, I hear you. And we went on and did it anyways. So I kind of anticipated that like she would at least get some like letter or something. But I don't think she did none of us did, but like it's understood that that those of us who organized the coordination and that for sure would be like out. But I was the only one who was sort of going to a Catholic church at that point anyways. So it was like, I don't really care. How does your, how does the concept of evangelization tie into your conception of anarchism? Or does it mean to evangelize, is it more about faith? How does your relationship to God motivate your political action? Well, I have a fiscal reaction to the word evangelism. Okay. And that's been the topic of discussion many times in this house. I see. But I do what you mean. Yeah, I guess it's, it's not, it's not about either. It's about how we should be in the world and how we should treat each other essentially. And it looks, and it will look different for everyone in their context of, you know, but if it's rooted in, you know, in the, you know, the two great commandments, love God and love everybody else. Could you say that 10 more times over? Yeah. Yeah. And not like one over the other, you know, just like together at the same time. That's, that's what matters. And so it's, it's, it's more about what you do than like what you talk about. And that's it. And that's a kind of a, a state Francis saying that I love of, you know, is preach always and sometimes use words. Like that's the abbreviated version of it. Right? Is preach always and sometimes use words. Yeah. preach their action. Yeah. Like, yeah, people will see what you're doing and, and they will ask, I mean, and if there's an opportunity, maybe you will tell, but like, let people ask, let people figure out, like, why, why do you do that? By creating a space for religious and spiritual anarchists, how do you, you know, Or would you respond to like the concern to women queer folks and others who have been victimized in the name of religion? Well, I mean at the heart of it that's That is the blame lies on institutional like practice of faith You know get two humans together and some shit's gonna go down You know get a couple billion and it was like oh look we have a system and and it must be a cookie cutter So for sure like I mean that's that's Definitely part of why the key became a priest and why we created this like 10 gentle community of like church community Alongside Catholic worker it was because she understood personally For herself and for people she loved that that exclusionary piece and the lack of Evangelizing about love full stop one word. That's it and To take take those take some of those oppressive structures away So that like those are not barriers to people loving or people being loved Can you touch more on the idea of spiritual sanctuary or or why Why a house why why a Christ room? Why why this idea of hosting? well, I guess because I mean I tend more on the introvert side and so so I also wasn't Wasn't sure about like moving into communal house But I'm going I've been happily in sconce to my basement suite by myself and I'm liking it and I think he was similar but clearly Humans are made to be social and so we can be Social and supportive or we can be social and oppressive So that's you know like we need we need support and so back to the idea of a family home like the idea of family May be triggering to people because their experience of family was not but the concept of family of a group of people who You know when you're vulnerable i.e. A child or an elder like needs and literal physical support, but in any case have understood and pathetic relationship that You know gives what it what you give what you can when you can and receive what you need also without like having to recreate new relationships all the time like Build those relationships and then create a space where people can easily come into relationship when they need it and Ask for what they need Yeah, that makes me think I mean, you know, there's a a shared history across many faith groups of like the concept of sanctuary and like thinking about the current political context in the United States and this history of the sanctuary movement and integration and like the 80s in particular like what kind of roles do you see Catholic workers taking on I mean, I guess particularly in the state since there's like lots of chapters in the states like what kind of what kind of roles do you see folks potentially taking on in terms of addressing what's going on right now with you know the rise of fascism and lots of violence towards immigrant communities Well, there's certainly a history of Catholic workers like where where it was I think where like a actual sanctuary movement was it was happening with a church like being involved in that and I mean I mean we see from Some of some of the news that we're hearing like people are Providing sanctuary to their neighbors anyways, right? They're letting them stay with them because they're afraid to go out or they're taking you know they're bringing them food You know and groceries and stuff because they're not leaving their homes and I mean that's it in essence what hospitality is I mean it's like with a political twist It's not just like I'm having issue the time and I need some help but like oh my god There's like serious oppression going on and we need to make sure that we're providing for people So like it's it it's a complete natural fit, but it will depend on what the you know what the community is like and what they have to offer I mean we personally had experience with that with the US soldiers resisting the war on Iraq So they were coming to Canada, you know, was it there was this movement the war resistor movement and we became involved in it early on like we became the Vancouver hub of what had started in Toronto and so sometimes it was Literal sanctuary there was a few people who were here who were like had not passed through the borders legally But also we were like we sort of focused our hospitality at that time like we only had a couple of rooms anyways And so it was sort of like you know for a couple of years We only had war resistors staying with us and Sometimes it was for a couple of nights and sometimes it was for a couple of weeks and sometimes it was for a year We had a family here like there was a birth here not literally in the house But there was a family who came with a toddler and then while they were here had another child that was wild And you know and interestingly like Politically they were not all aligned with you know, but there was still this essential like We don't agree with what's going on and I do not want to be killed for it I think and then we facilitated That sort of the last war resistor that we worked with we facilitated him Living literally in sanctuary at first United Church before the church was turned down and it was not it was not operating as a church anymore But the minister who was in charge of the shelter was a was a comrade and Someone got to the point in their immigration like processing where it was like oh shit. This is like You know, this is the this is the moment of truth and so we held a press conference and and he said Rodney's not here. He's in sanctuary at a church and he's gonna stay there and he ended up living in like seven years It's brutal people kind of forgot about him, but he was safe. It wasn't violated. They were watching but So so yeah, it's a natural role, but it but again because it's relational and it's radical meaning from the roots It's like whatever skills people have in relationships they have so it's important to make those relationships in the community to make the community broader so that like if those needs are the needs then then there's a way to meet them When when you say they were watching it can you say who they oh the cops and and CBSA Yeah, there was times where people knew that they were they I think they came in a couple times asking, but they were also Outside in the back alley After you know peak COVID pandemic and the rise of Christian nationalism in rural Canada in the US Do you find the tenor of Christianity kind of changing on like the secular coast? Do you is that something that you're noticing much? I'm not really plugged into the church, but I I mean No For mainline churches that like they're still doing the thing, you know It doesn't really crop up there. You know that's I would say you know just in urban Vancouver that's not my experience. I mean certainly we you know we see it online And there's people who think that way, but like I'm not aware of any But that's only because I don't that that is not my nil. Yeah, I don't like interact there. So I'm sure I'm sure they're always where well. I mean, you know here we have like what we call the Bible belt like the Fraser Valley, right But even even then like human during COVID like there was a couple of churches who were being resistant to like you know the public health measures But They were like seriously in the minority like even though The quote unquote Bible belt is known to be like conservative in their out, you know They're religious outlook. It was not not Christian naturalists like I'm not saying none of them are but that's like I've never sort of heard that that's like being an issue for people in the shane here or worry about it and going that way Yeah, not my experience I want to dial it back to earlier. I know that There are conversations right now within the the official Catholic church about canonizing Dorothy Day And it seems like this is a maybe a debate within the movement. What are your opinions on St. Hood for Dorothy Day? Do you care about an official stem? It seems like maybe not. I don't Yeah, no, it was interesting when that started to come up. There was the people who were you know, I mean then there's the famous Dorothy quote Which is don't make me don't make me a thing because I don't want to be dismissed basically, right? Like is that's what happens Like oh look it's st. Glob the black. There's their picture and that's all we know and care about them as opposed to what they did and like a boat what they were trying to get us to do, right? The behavior that they were trying to model. So yeah, don't really care. I mean, I don't hate the church has saints. Like I think we need models and things to aspire to and you never know what's gonna speak to a person at any given time. So that's fine, it's great. I wouldn't like oppose it, but I'm also not putting any energy into it. And then like there's been a few things that got sent around on the list about like, you know, sign this saying or help with this, blah blah. And I'm gonna delete it. - How do you kind of view her as a saint in your eyes already? Like how do you venerate? Maybe just by running the house or? - Yeah. I think I kind of got over that. I mean, when you know like the first blush of when you like discover a thing, you're like, oh, this is like it's so inspiring. And it's great, it was great. But then the more you like read about her in her life was like, oh yeah, well, like I think sometimes she was an asshole too. And living in community is not always easy. And she and and the idea of hierarchy also, that's like a bit of can be a bit of attention. I was like, how do you how do you have a community where you're trying to sustain for the long period? Like a household. Without someone in charge, I think anyone who's ever tried to do like a communal thing was. So it ends up that some people are in charge. Like, you know, in the dynamic of me and Vicki, Vicki was mom on death, right? And I'm the one who makes sure most things get done, right? And that's just, but some of that is like my personality and what I take them on for myself and trying to be aware of the like, you know, this is not necessarily hierarchical, but somebody like buck stops somewhere. I don't know, it wasn't quite like that with Dorsey because she was more like the spiritual leader and the writer. And I think she was, you know, and she was writing and traveling and connecting with communities. And I'm sure there was some resentment about like, oh yeah, we had to keep supporting all this while, you know, she's off-gallonenting and we're doing the hard work and fundraising and whatever. I'm sure. So, you know, like deeply appreciate the, like the convergence of events that brought her and Peter together and like manifested this thing and her, you know, her output as a writer and her ability to synthesize these thoughts, like they're great, they're invaluable, 100%. Do I care that she would be a saint? No, but like obviously she's an important, I know I know enough about her and would continue to be curious to read things about her to be like, yeah, extremely influential person in my life, 100%. And maybe for someone who never encountered Catholic worker, that the day, you know, the day that she becomes a saint and somebody was like, oh, saint Dorothy Day, who is that and starts to learn about it? Like they will think about her as saint Dorothy. I probably won't. But it doesn't really matter. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What sort of criteria do you use to decide what to take on as like an action? I mean, we've spoken kind of about like working with what you have and like, what you're from. What do you see as like building community power to change conditions in following like Dorothy and Pierce vision? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it definitely shifted over time, like started with, like I said, Vicki's, Vicki's and then my connections to the community and the community that served the down town east side. But also, I've always been interested in like, you know, political movements and anti-war. I mean, Catholic worker is pacifist. So I sort of contended with that concept over my life. And so when things happen, then it's like, oh, okay, where do we sit in relation to that? And so 2003, I spent time at the peace camp and I was part of organizing the stop war in Vancouver and we participated in some demos, but then we also, like, but then there was also like, Vicki was not so much the out on the streets person anymore and because I've heard personality and state of life. But we invite, we had a session, we had several sessions of, let's do some crafting and create some prayer beads and then when we're out in the rally, so I had signs that were like prayer beads for peace, ask me, they're free. And I would have a bag of like rosaries and others, like types of prayer beads and people ask for them because that's how they, so yeah, so it was sort of as each thing comes along, it's like, what's our role in that or how do I fit in that or how do I feel about that? So the war resistor thing was, it was someone actually emailed us because we were Catholic worker and we were in Canada saying, you know, I think we might need an underground railroad again because, you know, like from Vietnam, because it's Canada's history from Vietnam. And so that led to, I can't remember, somebody else picked it up, some independent journalists on the island in fact had a like a list serve and picked that up and then the connection was made with Catholic worker and then somebody who was, who was making a film about Vietnam vets who was from here connected with us. And then they connected us with the people who were like supporting the war resistors who had just arrived in Toronto, like, so like if you create the conditions and the connections and the relationships, like stuff, stuff will play out, right? So yeah, I don't know if that answers the question, but it sort of, yeah, it very much depends on who's, who's involved, how much they have the passion for or is, and it's like anything when you're working on an issue and you want the world to know and to understand and be outraged and change it. You often don't connect with people unless there's some personal piece, some little thing and we find the same thing in the union, right? We have, in my local, we have 3600 members and most of them, like a lot of them probably don't even realize they're part of the union, they don't check their pace stuff, it's either the dues are deducted, right? And they maybe don't support us if we're not doing like anything specifically for them. But when they get in trouble at work and someone comes and represents them and particularly if they get into a lot of trouble at work and someone represents them, they often become some of our best activists because ah, they've touched it, they see it, they understand it and now they value it and will perpetuate it, right? And same thing with like, yeah, any convincing anybody of like, you should care about this thing, like, well, sure, but until there's some little personal connection that's like, oh, okay, now I feel a little, I'm tied to it a little bit than that, then that will make them act. That's been my experience always. I mean, because I frequently get overwhelmed, but like, I care about all the things. Yeah. And I cannot do anything about most of the things. Yeah. Yeah. Do you work with non-non-capic anarchists? So are there other like, Protestants or Buddhists or atheists? Is there a lot of interlay? Or is it? I am unaware of, yeah, it's like that's not the primary connection. Yeah. Did you start as a Catholic for stories? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't not know about anarchism, but I didn't really, wasn't really interested or educated it until it came through like the reading and the stuff that came with Catholic word burn. And then I was like, oh, okay, that makes sense to me. Like, yeah, I like the big A anarchism I knew. And so it didn't sort of make a lot of sense, but the way that Dorsey and Peter talk about it makes sense. Do you think it's important for anarchists and anarchism to have, like, connection and communication with spirituality? What can that add to anarchism? Because I know, like, I think there's generally within anarchism, like, a lot of atheism or agnosticism. And that can be like quite like hard line and actually like kind of standoffish or even like volatile towards even, you know, any mentions of spirituality. I know like in my work in my anarchism, and I'm not like any denomination necessarily of like spirituality, although I did like grow up. Catholic, but just in terms of like doing the work, especially doing the work on soul and lands as a settler, like there is a really big spiritual element here me in that, you know, has really like kept me on track and like helped with burnout and helped with just like deciding like what are those things that I want to put my energy into and like, how do I use my gifts to the best of my ability to do that work? I guess? Because I came. to it through faith, which I got from my mom. Like it wasn't a choice, it was like an immersion, you know, kind of thing. And then, you know, I just took and picked and choose what made sense to me. I guess I don't understand the philosophy without the element of love, compassion and care. Like I don't understand what would motivate you to care, to try to work collectively and support each other without the need to love. And so that, for me, that is manifested through a faith practice. And, you know, ultimately, just a relationship with what I call God currently. But, you know, like that essence that created this world and that we live in. So I'd be curious to know what motivates someone who doesn't have it. Like, so yeah, I mean, to what you were talking about, like, where's the root, where's the core, what sustains, like, you on a very basic level. I don't know, look, if I didn't have, like, some understanding of, like, there's something outside of me and some greater thing. Don't know what it is. Don't know how it works. Then what is there? Like, that's, that seems like empty to me. I don't know. I don't, I don't understand the world without that. So kind of hard to, I'd be curious to hear what someone would say, like, what motivates that? Where does that come from and what sustains it for them? What if there's nothing like, like, there's a faith in something, obviously, right? But maybe it's not named or understood. I don't know. I find for me something that really, you know, caged me going and makes me feel connected to other people in the other movement is music. And to be more about, I guess, a fun question is, are there any particular hymns or songs from the Catholic worker or the wider radical Christian canon that you draw inspiration from or that you really like? Well, I mean, Catholic music is notoriously fast. Have that anecdote about the person who was a. Well, Vicki, yeah, Vicki's grandmother, who she raised her. So her grandmother was, so they were African-American. She was Baptist. And her second husband was a Muslim from Indonesia. So grandma Rose was a closet Catholic, Vicki said. So she prayed the Rosary, and she had this statue of Mary that's here in our room. But she couldn't become a Catholic, because the music was bad. Compared to the Baptist, I like and appreciate music, but yeah, no, there's not. I mean, I'm more the, you know, play me David Rovicks, who would Jesus bomb or I'm a better anarchist than you. That kind of thing. And so, yeah, no. And I don't know that the movement is not known to be particularly musical. There's definitely some arts movement in the Midwest. They will sometimes do a regional gathering and do an arts in crafts, a kind of weekend kind of stuff, like very back to the land, basic arts and crafts kind of stuff. But yeah, not known for being particularly interesting. Yeah, maybe that's more of an IWW. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, for sure. There's, yeah, some, there's, I mean, I would say that that music is religious, but it's not like from this movement. Is there anything that you really want people to know about the Vancouver Catholic worker that maybe there's something unknown or there's a myth or something you want to clarify or have known? Hmm. I don't know. I mean, we were in, I'm, we're, I am in this time of, don't know what's going to happen next. Vicki and I did this together for 26, 7 years and and really plan what would come next that, you know, the the house is communal, but ultimately it's mine and and and so I have mixed feelings about like what will happen next for my next phase of life. Do it. You know, do I want to keep building the community and invite some people in, but then will I feel trapped because I'd want to like, I'm done now. I want to go. But ultimately the community is not the house. The community is a philosophy. And like, if I were to like leave and move away, there could, there would still be a Vancouver Catholic worker. If there was people who want to like operate in that philosophy and whatever way works for them and whatever location works for them. So yeah, there's no, yeah, we don't have a copyright on Vancouver Catholic worker or Samaritan house. And by the way, the name Samaritan house came, we were trying to figure out like all the houses tend to have a name and we didn't want to call it after a saying and so it was like, oh, well, okay, there's two stories about Samaritans that we thought intersected, which is the Samaritan woman at the well. And the good Samaritan. So like, that's how we ended on Samaritan. Can you tell us more of those are? Oh, okay. Well, the good, the story of the good Samaritan is like this guy was walking and and he got beat up by robbers and various like at the time like Jewish church leaders like and they had different like rebates and whatever the names are anyways, they walked by and like noticed and they kept on walking and didn't do anything about it. And then a Samaritan who were like the enemies of the Jews for a cat remember the reasons because I'm not a scripture scholar, but like they then like each other and they didn't care about each other, but the Samaritan came by and saw that this guy who was a Jew was all beat up and left on the side of the road. And he took him to a place where they would be looked after and fed and closed and like wounds, you know, teen carav. That's the behavior that like that was a parable or Jesus talking about. This is this is how we should treat each other like doesn't matter that you're like quote unquote an enemy like we the human and we look after humans. And then Samaritan woman at the well again, Jesus stopped for water at a well in his time as a single Jewish man, he shouldn't have been talking to a woman by himself never mind as Samaritan woman never mind the fact that she had been married multiple times. So like she was like extra bad, but he was talking to her and and she was like genuinely curious about him and what he had to say. And he you know in the story he he knows about her life already and says you know well you've had this many husbands and whatever the conversation goes anyways he teaches her something that she appreciates. And she goes back and tells everybody about this guy Jesus and meanwhile his followers catch up with him they're like oh my god where are you talking to this woman at the well as this terrible Samaritan. So anyways, so there's the feminist piece and then there's the caring for humans piece. We put the two Samaritan stories together in Samaritan house. So anyways, so yeah whoever wants to be Catholic, where could they there could be more than one house like it does like we'd we there wasn't one we started one this is what we called it. I would hope that other people would learn the philosophy appreciate it. I mean it makes sense for Catholics to like it's an easier entrance to like oh these are people who practice the same as we do and so comes from that same philosophy but then like blows it out the sides of the church doors and you know goes farther that makes sense but it's also just a basic like philosophy of loving capacity and respect. You told me earlier, an anecdote about one of the houses in Washington I think that is mostly comprised of Buddhists. Can you explain that a little bit more? Yeah, I mean I believe that when it got that community started and I don't know if they still exist or not so not really connected but I think it was a family who started it and then like their kids got older and they got older and other people sort of came and sort of like took over the community and at that at the point where we met them none of them were Catholics and most of them were Buddhists. It's interesting. So at the point it doesn't really matter what your practice is or you know like what your personal faith practices or even what your community faith practice is it's these it's the corporal and spiritual works of mercy it's loving creation and loving each other and trying doing the best to look out for each other and like whatever capacity you have to do and collectively. So if someone wanted to start Catholic worker chapter say in Victoria what advice would you give or what would you recommend? Some of the same advice that we got we did so Vicki and I and another friend who was somebody who had a car did a weekend road trip. to Washington State, kind of like a trip to Vancouver. And we visited three different communities 'cause those are the ones that we knew about at the time, 'cause I'm a visual learner and I needed to understand. We just wanted to talk to them about their experience. And all three were very different, had different in how long they'd been around and their structure and who supported them. So that was education all it was like, oh, there's not one way and it doesn't need to be, it's not like read the Lovels and Missches and then reproduce this thing, then the way they did it in New York and the other days. - Right. - And then also at one of the houses, there was a young person who was visiting from New York who was part of a legacy Catholic worker family. Like their family had grown in a Catholic worker community and now they were a young adult and they were participating in Catholic worker communities around 'cause people often will travel from community and spend time in different ones. And they're advice for us 'cause we were thinking about doing this, I don't know. And they're like, you know, you could just start with a Christroom in your home, like whoever you are, wherever you live, you have a spare room, 'cause he was talking about, I think how his parents had maybe moved out of the community as they were older and other people were sort of taken by the community, but they still always had a spare room and it was always available for someone to stay. And like, and that's the essence of it is like the openness and the willingness to share your space, but also your life on whatever level. I mean, that's the thing when I was talking about this at work, when we started it and people were like, you're gonna have a stranger staying your house. I was like, yeah, that's the point. (laughing) Right, but I mean, that's a real concept, but if you think about it, like people will take in family, extended family members or friends of family sometimes, you know, like often stories that you hear are like a family and their kid knows another kid who's like, got a shitty situation or whatever. And it's like, oh yeah, we'll be about spare room, you come live with us, like that's essentially it, but they don't have to have that kind of connection. I mean, you do whatever is comfortable and you don't put yourself in like harm's way in at risk, but you also do take some risk about being open and willing to like offer some support if you can. I mean, ultimately it's on your own terms and yes, we have had to ask people to leave for you know, for various reasons, but yeah, so like just that you just need to have an openness and you can do it in a small group and then see what happens. I mean, there was small decisions made along the way when we were struggling with who, how do we do this and where do we do this and what do we do it with and as we started to be like, well, okay, well, you know, I think I told you at one point I said to Vicky, well, let's just get a place together 'cause we now are living not so far apart like and we spent all our time together or both being rent, like when we just get a place together like for now because we're doing all this stuff together anyways. We never ended up doing that. We ended up in the house, but it would, but I felt like that kind of opened the flood gates of like, oh, some other stuff started to happen because that particular obstacle had been like blown up in my mind, right? It was like, oh, well, let's just share space. Oh, okay, now we can share space with a whole bunch of people 'cause it all started to flow from there. Start small, start with what you have. Yeah. How can people in so-called Vancouver get involved where would they go? Oh, so we do have a Facebook page in a website so VancouverCatholicWorker.org. It's not very active. This is, you know, this last year's been a fellow kind of year for me with Vicky dying and my dad dying and not knowing what's gonna happen, but I'd love to site up. So, and we have an email address there and yeah, I thought about it. I was like, oh, maybe I should take all that down because I don't know if I want any, you know, I don't know if I want to keep doing this and I don't, you know, I mean, shouldn't like, be false advertising, but, you know, but it's really about the idea. And so if, like, if it's enough for people to read and think and dream and- No, we found it. Yeah. In order to do their own thing, then that's fine. Like, I got over it pretty quick in my head. You still collecting donations? Toilets? Some people, there are a few donations that trickle in and we're not really doing a hospitality now in the same way and so there's not as much need, but like if I was to sort of ramp up the community again and be wanting to offer our hospitality because we don't, we do it without charge to people. And, you know, our philosophy was always, 'cause people were like, well, how long can people stay? It's like, well, it's a however long they need. And for me, over the years, I've distilled it down to various forms of, as long as people are doing something for themselves that's improving their lives and so for some people, it's they just needed to rest or they just needed to heal. But then it's, oh, you know, maybe they wanna go back to school or, you know, so whatever it is, as long as they're moving forward in some way to like improve their lives the way they wanna see it, and then fine. If you get stuck, then, you know, like, well, somebody else might want that space. So, you know? So then people do sometimes get to a point where like, they're like, well, they got a job and they're gonna, they'll contribute at the, you know, voluntarily if they want to. So, at this point, we're not soliciting donations, but in future for sort of offering more active hospitality or doing any kind of like activity in the community we might, well, I'll advertise, I mean, we had to do it to, we renovated this house. It was really old and run down and eventually made that. So there was a big fundraising pitch was very uncomfortable. I still have a diet mortgage from it, but still, like we did, we fundraised and people were generous and it was great 'cause, you know, but it's all about connections, not about that. To know, hey, you should give us money. It's like, you know, come and hang with us and like help us if you can. - Yeah, just before we close, I'm just wondering if there's any like little funny stories or anecdotes from your time in the house that would just be nice to share. - The biggest thing that's ever happened. - Oh, oh, there's been some interesting things but a more fun story is that, so it's like the house you're seeing now is all like sort of nice proper walls and floors and all that kind of stuff, but it's very nice. - But prior to that, it was old and kind of grungy and the basement was unfinished. So there was no walls, it was just like exposed everything and we created rooms out of fabric with like stable guns and there was someone who lived here for a few years who like loved all creatures and had, so we had many, we've had many pets over the years. And in particular, he had like an iguana and a chameleon and then there was a bearded dragon and there was a hedgehog. So the chameleon ate crickets. I think it was no, the bearded dragon ate crickets. So sometimes the crickets would get loose, right? And so and there would be like, "Hey, there's a cricket somewhere in the house." But it also inspired others. So there was a young man, I can't even remember his name, but he was a lovely young guy. He lived with us for a couple of months and he got inspired to also get an illizard pet. I think it was a skink. But it disappeared one day. - Oh. - And I think maybe a year later we found the, you know, but it was somewhere like in the rafters. - Yeah. - So yeah. So there were times where when people asked me to describe the house, I wouldn't say that there were more animals than humans in the house. - Oh, yeah. - Because Dr. Jewelittle lived here. (laughing) - Well, we met beauty, the dog and she, by the cat and they were wonderful. - Yes. - Yeah. Well, if you want to know more about the Vancouver Catholic worker, we will have the link attached in the podcast wherever you're listening to it from. Sarah, thank you for your time. - Right, thank you. - Sarah. - If Jesus Christ came back today like you threatened, he will, which poor group of people did think that he would kill? And who would Jesus choose to starve? If you gave him the chance, and if there was a genocide, would he take a neutral stance? Who would Jesus bomb? Tell me who would Jesus bomb? Would it be kids in Palestine? Or how about the atom? Would Jesus bomb the atheist? The Muslims or the Jews? I want you to ask yourself, oh, what would Jesus do? What he say is complicated and there's sinners on both sides. ♪ And remember what he'd say that some people ♪ They just deserve to die ♪ If Jesus Christ rose from the dead and on a sidewalk slept, would you extend your hand to Him or just watch where you stepped? Who would Jesus bump, tell me who would Jesus bump? Would it be kids in Palestine or how about Vietnam? Would Jesus bump the atheists of Muslims or the Jews? I want you to ask yourself what would Jesus do? Would Jesus pay the gafo, the clear foe, or the trends? Would He suggest they hand their life, supporting to God's plans? Would Jesus tell a homeless man to get a fucking job? Or turn his back on the poor, would Jesus be a stop? Would Jesus build a border wall, would Jesus drive a tank? Would Jesus be a landlord, would Jesus run a bank? Would Jesus Christ feel safe in a skin, if He came to your town? And would you still believe in Him? If He found out He was brown? Yeah, who would Jesus bump, tell me who would Jesus bump? I want you to ask yourself what would Jesus do?