Sandra Birchmore's alleged killer on trial. UNC student murder case. Plus, campus safety.

I'm going to be filming at Sentencing. It's the start of another workday for the Dateline team. And doing some door knocks. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news. It had to do with that guy we interviewed. At that moment, family knows something is seriously wrong. They've got all this evidence against him that looks pretty damning. Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's October 15th, and here's what's on our docket. In North Carolina, 14 years after a UNC student was found murdered at her off-campus apartment, her roommate faces tough questions in the witness box. Do you remember having a conversation with him about having blood on your hand? No. In Dateline Roundup, the man convicted of murdering rap superstar Tupac Shakur learns his fate. And we're inside the courtroom for the trial of a Virginia man accused of murdering his wife, even though her body has never been found. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's the American dream. It's what the defendant wanted, but ultimately ended as a nightmare. Plus, campus safety. What if students need to know if they experience sexual assault or another crime on campus? We'll be talking to two experts about where to turn for help. Students should know that they always have a choice in agency in this situation. But before all that, we're heading to Boston for the latest in the federal trial of a former police officer, accused of killing pregnant teacher's aide, Sandra Birchmore. And a warning for listeners, this story might be upsetting. It includes discussion of suicide and sexual abuse. 23-year-old Sandra Birchmore was found dead in her Canton, Massachusetts apartment on February 4th, 2021. Now, five and a half years later, Matthew Farwell, a former Stoughton police officer she first met when she was a teenager, is on trial for killing her. As opening statements got underway last week in a federal courthouse in Boston, the prosecution and defense presented very different versions of Sandra's final moments. The prosecution showed the jury security camera video of Farwell taking an elevator up to Sandra's apartment on the night of her death. They argued that Farwell was there to kill Sandra, who was pregnant, and silence her about their years-long sexual relationship that allegedly began when she was underage. Farwell admits he was in Sandra's apartment. But says he did not kill her. His defense team says she died by suicide after Farwell broke up with her that night. Here to help us get up to speed as Farwell's trial enters week two is Dateline producer Cassie Marshall. Welcome to the podcast, Cassie. Hey, Andrea. Glad to be here. So you and I have been covering this story together for a good while now. We did a Dateline episode called The Betrayal of Sandra Birchmore. It's almost hard to believe we are here finally at a trial. And as we mentioned, Cassie, it's taking place. It's in a federal courthouse. We're used to murder trials happening more at the state level. So this is a little different. It is. It is. Personally, for me, it's the first one I've covered in federal courthouse. I mean, the main difference is that cameras are not allowed in or any recording devices of any kind. The fact, Cassie, that this case is being tried by U.S. attorneys, it actually has deep meaning in this case, why this is in a federal courthouse. It has to do with how everything unfolded with the investigation. You're right. I mean, that was the focus. The focus of the hour that we did that aired last year, the local county and the local D.A. concluded that it was a suicide. And that, you know, was the sort of decision for four years. But, you know, as we reported, family, friends wouldn't let it go. And so in the end, the FBI stepped in and did their own investigation. And it wasn't until, what was it, August of 2024 that Matthew Farwell was arrested. So, Cassie, take us to the prosecution's opening statement. Assistant U.S. Attorney Tori Cummings, she didn't immediately jump into the theory of the crime. What I took note from the prosecution's opening statement was that they wanted to give the jury a sense of who Sandra was. They gave you the visual of this only child raised by a single mom, vulnerable. There wasn't a lot of money. Her mother was often sick. And so they put her in these programs to help give her positive role models. So that's how they introduced the Stoughton Police Department Explorer Program. Cassie, we should say. For anyone, you know, who doesn't know about these Explorer programs, they are for youth interested in learning about law enforcement. Yeah, this particular program was run a little bit like a mini boot camp. So they would get physical training. There was classroom training. There was exposure and speakers about different roles in law enforcement. Yeah, and the prosecutor put up a photo of Sandra and some other cadets from this Explorers program. Yes, I think there was maybe TID kids in the photo. But she's by far the smallest and super innocent looking. And they say that's where she met Matthew Farwell. And he started by sending her a Facebook friend request, which, you know, is outside the purview of the program. Then he started tutoring her at the library outside of the program. And then he started introducing sexual contact. And then that moved on to them having a sexual relationship at the age of 15. You know, this is all of their allegation. Which is underage. Which is underage. It's statutory rape. So they gave you the timeline of how he became an integral part of her life. And that relationship continued once he was married. Like, he got married a month after he first slept with Sandra. They put that in the opening statement. And so they give you this timeline all the way up to the months before her death when she becomes pregnant. And then they say that that's when things really took a turn because they said that he was not happy about the pregnancy. He also learned. He learned that she was starting to share information that he had told her not to share. There's a call to his police department saying they're sleeping together. And that, in the prosecution's opinion, is the straw that broke the camel's back. That's what sets him on this plan of like, okay, there's no way to control her now. I have to get rid of the problem. And the way to get rid of the problem is to end her life. And less than two weeks later, she was gone. I mean, the one thing that's wild about this case that I tell people is. Is that when prosecutors say he killed her, it was something like, they say, 12 hours later that his wife gave birth to their third child. Yes, his wife. He dropped his wife at the hospital. She had a scheduled C-section. He goes from there to Sandra's apartment. And then a few days later is when her body's found. The defense, Cassie, wants the jury to believe that Sandra was suicidal. Yeah, the defense opening statement was very different. A very different story of what happened to Sandra. That she, you know, had. A history of mental health struggles. And that the night Matthew Farwell went to her apartment, she had been texting him all night long. Saying that she was stressed. And she wanted to see him and come over. It was a litany of text messages. And that finally he responded. And that's why he was there. And that once he was there, he broke up with her. And she took her life. You know, the defense introduced in their opening statement. And it's clear from the exhibit list that it's going to be part of their defense. That Sandra kept. And that apparently there's things in the journal that they feel show that she was suicidal at certain points. It sounds like the prosecution might say that maybe that was in the past. Nowhere near the time of her death. But that's something for us to look at is what those journal entries say. Yeah, I'm interested in seeing those. Cassie, prosecutors pointed out that Sandra did not leave a suicide note. That she'd sent some 600 messages that day about her life. And you and I learned that she was an oversharer. About everything. So they pointed to that to say, like, it doesn't add up. Right, right. And according to the opening statements, Sandra was on the phone with her best friend that night. So it brings the question, wouldn't she just hop back on the phone or text somebody to say, oh, my God, I can't believe what happened. But the defense said there's no signs of struggle in the house. There's no drag marks in terms of the carpet. Like, if he took her life, they don't see any signs of it. But the one thing I found really interesting that the prosecution said is that, Matthew Farwell had introduced, and this is graphic, choking into their sexual relationship from a very early age. So they said the idea that Matthew Farwell would put his hands around Sandra's neck would not come as a surprise to her. And that she necessarily wouldn't fight back. Suggesting that, you know, by the time she realized it, it would be too late. I thought that was very key that they did that. How is the defense handling this relationship between Matthew Farwell, Farwell and Sandra? Because it can certainly make the jury not like Matthew Farwell when they hear about this alleged grooming. No, it was interesting because they did not address it at all. You know, usually when I've seen defense attorneys go up and they talk about how their client did not commit murder, you know, it's very strong. It's very emphatic. It's very forceful. This was the opposite approach. The defense attorney was very gentle. She had her hand on his back. Then she went up into the jury. And she was very soft-spoken. And it was almost like she was trying to impart that she really cared and there was another side of him. And she just sort of said that this was a man that had an affair. You know, he made a mistake. And they completely did not mention everything the prosecution had said about the fact that he started sleeping with her at 15. And they had text messages to prove it. They did not address that in the opening arguments at all. This case really does come down to which investigators you believe because the Norfolk County D.A. and local investigators, said Sandra died by suicide, and then the federal investigation Investigators are saying that she was killed by far. Well, so it's it's not a comfortable place for prosecutors to be. And it certainly could leave room for reasonable doubt for a jury. No, it's true. And I think a lot of people are waiting for the M.E. that did the initial autopsy to testify, because the interesting thing about her is that, like we said, it was ruled a suicide until this year. It was changed to undetermined. The suicide ruling was a strong boost for the defense. The fact that it's been changed to undetermined could be a blow to their case. So a note, just Cassie, a note for our listeners. It was determined in the end. That Matthew Farwell was not the father of Sandra's baby. However, the prosecution argues that he believed he was the father. Right, right. We know that from previous ruling that DNA testing ruled Matthew Farwell out as the father. Authorities, federal prosecutors do know who is the father and he is on the witness list. So it remains to be seen whether he'll testify or not and what he'll say. One thing we do know, Cassie, is how deeply. This is for Sandra's family, who we got to know during our coverage for Dateline. Have they been in court? Have you talked to them in the hallways at all? Yes. The four cousins that we interviewed for our report, they have been here. And, you know, I have seen them. And, you know, they're hanging in there. They're strong women. They showed that to us. But, you know, obviously it was difficult for them to hear the opening arguments by the defense. And it's hard to see Matthew Farwell in there. But, yeah, they're showing up and they plan to be here as much as they can. Cassie, thank you so much for coming on from Boston. You're very welcome. My pleasure. Coming up, 14 years after UNC student Faith Hedgepeth was murdered, a key witness takes the stand in the trial of her accused killer. 14 years ago, 19-year-old UNC student Faith Hedgepeth was found bruised. She was brutally murdered inside the apartment she shared with her roommate in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. For nearly nine years, no one was charged with her murder. Then, in 2021, investigators arrested Miguel Salguero-Oliveres. He was also 19 at the time of the murder and living in Chapel Hill. He had no known connection to Faith, but prosecutors say DNA evidence tied him to the crime. He has pleaded not guilty. The second week of his murder trial is underway. And prosecutors. Prosecutors have called a key witness, Faith's friend and roommate, Karina Rosario, one of the last people known to have seen her alive. I just saw, like, a couple spots of blood, and I pulled the comforter down, and I saw that she had a black eye. I've been following the trial alongside Dateline producer Mike Nardi. Hey, Mike. Hey, Andrea. How are you? Good. So, I know you have been in the courthouse in Durham, North Carolina. I was there last week for the beginning. This has been very emotional for Faith's family and friends. There has been a big showing for Faith, her parents, her nieces, friends from college. I saw a lot of hugs and a lot of tears. Right. I think her family especially have waited a really, really long time for this moment. Yeah. You can just feel the weight, the heaviness in that courtroom. Mike, once the jury was finally seated, we heard opening statements. Prosecutors laid out their theory of what happened to Faith. And sitting there listening to how the state alleges the tragic night unfolded, it was quite chilling. Right. Right. So, they told the jury that Miguel Salguero Olivares entered Faith's apartment in the middle of the night after her roommate had left with a friend. Prosecutors said he attacked her with a Bacardi rum bottle and sexually assaulted her. And they allege he left behind a handwritten message on a white paper takeout bag that was found on Faith's bed. And it read, I'm not stupid, bitch, jealous. It was very hard to hear. There was a moment when the prosecution told the jurors to tune out speculation that had surrounded the case for years. The evidence in this case is louder than the noise around it. Listen to the evidence. Right. Right. And you said that word speculation, which is exactly right, because there has been so much of that with this case over the years. So many people with so many ideas about what happened to Faith and who might be responsible. The defense presented its opening statements, and Miguel's attorneys actually picked up on that word noise and turned it around. Ask yourself, is this noise? Is it just DNA and the rest is noise? Or are there things in this case that don't add up? Right. The defense pointed out that no witnesses ever saw Salguero Olivares enter Faith's apartment. His attorneys also raised questions about how the evidence was collected and handled and whether the DNA evidence proved. What prosecutors allege it does. They argued that those questions couldn't simply be dismissed as noise. Prosecutors began calling witnesses immediately after openings finished, and they put a number of photos of Faith up on the screen, the large screen in the courtroom. And one of the photos that they showed the court was of Faith. She was in Myrtle Beach by the water. She looked so happy. And she was with her friend, Karina Rosario. Prosecutors called her very quickly as their second witness. I have to say, she looked very sad on the stand, kind of almost broken. Yeah. And, you know, Karina has been a central figure in this case from the very beginning. As we know, she was one of the last people to see Faith alive. And she was the person who found her body. She found her friend in their bed. And it was emotional at times. One day, just like a normal college student, and the next, it felt like my whole life was with this thing now. Her voice shook as she talked. She talked about how close she and Faith were. She told jurors that they really became close at UNC. And by the summer of 2012, they were living together in a one-bedroom apartment. They even shared a mattress. And I think the way Karina described their friendship was really touching. It kind of felt like a never-ending sleepover. Like we would stay up late, watch Disney movies. She would cook for me because I was just like, it was not a good time. Karina also walked the jury through the last night she spent with Faith, which is critical to this, those final hours of Faith's life. Right, right. Karina said they were studying together at the library, and then they decided to go out to a bar, a nightclub called The Thrill. Karina said she drank quite a bit that night, and eventually they went home. But a few hours later, Karina decided to leave. She told jurors she'd been texting a friend named. And around four in the morning, she asked him to pick her up. Mike, according to her testimony, that meant Faith was left alone in the apartment. That's right. And the next morning, Karina said she tried calling Faith repeatedly, but couldn't get an answer. So she asked their other friend, Marisol, to drive her back to the apartment. When they got there, Faith's car was still outside. Karina said the door was unlocked. She went inside, walked toward the bedroom, and found Faith. Karina called 911 and jurors. Got to hear that recording in court. How does she feel? Does she feel warm? No, she's so cold. She feels cold? Okay. Yes. Okay, all right. Don't touch anything else, okay? Mike, there is a twist with this witness. Before the trial even started, the defense raised questions about whether Karina herself could have been involved in Faith's murder. So when she was cross-examined on the stand, the defense pressed her about what happened that night. In a different way. They did, and one thing they focused on was the last time Karina saw Faith. In her original statement to police in 2012, Karina said that as she was leaving the apartment, she told Faith that Jordan was picking her up. But in a meeting with prosecutors earlier this year, she said she couldn't remember saying that. You don't remember saying, Faith, I'm leaving? No, I don't, but it's also been 14 years. Yes. I've. I haven't looked at my statements. I hadn't looked at interviews. I hadn't looked at anything. You're asking me to, like, dredge up memories from that long ago. The defense also questioned Karina about something the friend who picked her up that morning had told police, something he noticed on Karina. Yes. Jordan McCrary told investigators back in 2012 that as they were leaving the apartment complex, Yes. they saw what looked like a small smudge of blood on her finger, and the defense asked Karina about it. No. Think of any reason for him to make that up? I trust him. I don't. see him to be a liar. And I told the investigators the same, that I, if that is the conversation we had, that's the conversation we had. Do I believe it was blood? No. Karina acknowledges that she had been drinking heavily that night at the club when she went out with Faith. Right, right. She said she'd been drinking like a red slushy type drink and had too much of it and ended up getting sick and vomiting that night back at the apartment. So she believed that might explain the red mark on her finger. The defense is not directly pointing the finger at Karina, but they're coming pretty close, Mike. Yes, yes. And, you know, they can't come right out and say it because the judge previously ruled that they weren't allowed to do that. But it's the implication they seem to be making and trying to impress upon the jury. To be clear, it was never established that the mark Jordan saw. On Karina was actually blood. Correct. And Karina, of course, has denied having any involvement in Faith's murder. Yes. Mike, one of the lead investigators on the case also took the stand and described arriving at Faith's apartment. Yes. And she walked jurors through the crime scene and how investigators began trying to piece together what happened. But on cross-examination, the defense pressed her about some evidence that was never tested. For example, investigators photographed Faith's car with its gas cap open. The gas cap was open. Do you know if that got swabbed for DNA? It did not. Why? I don't know the answer to that. It's hard to think through what our thought process was 14 years ago. And so I do not know why that was not swabbed at the time. And as far as you recall, the doorknobs, I guess the front doorknob had been swabbed, correct? Yes. Why was the decision not to send that to the to be tested? I don't. I do not. I do not have an answer for that. Mike, I also want to talk about the defendant. I noticed he was taking a lot of notes. He seemed to me to be very engaged and closely paying attention. You know, he watches the witnesses. He's engaging, interacting with his attorneys. He had some strong facial reactions to some of the photos of the crime scene. So he's certainly not just sitting there stone-faced at the defense table. Okay. Thank you, Mike. We will continue to follow this trial. Thanks, Andrew. Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We'll take you inside the courtroom for the sentencing of the man who masterminded the murder of Tupac Shakur. And we'll share new details in the case of the Houston man who fled to Italy on the eve of his murder trial. Plus, resources for students who experienced sexual assault and other crimes on campus. We'll talk to an advocate and a former detective about what students need to know. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's Roundup is Dateline supervising digital producer Veronica Mazzica. Hey, Veronica. Hey. So first up, we have some new details in a case we've been following out of Houston. Back in October 2024, Lee Gilley was placed on house arrest with an ankle monitor after he was charged with the murder of his pregnant wife, Krista. He pleaded guilty to the death penalty and authorities say on the eve of his trial, Gilley cut off his ankle monitor and fled to Italy. We had few details until this week about how exactly he got to Italy. According to exclusive reporting by our local affiliate, KPRC2, we finally have some answers, Veronica. Fill us in. We knew thanks to court documents that Gilley's ankle monitor generated a tamper alert around 9 p.m. on May 1st. Our affiliate says that, sometime after his ankle monitor alarm went off, Gilley hopped on a bicycle. He somehow made it all the way to Memphis, Tennessee before boarding a private jet to Canada. And there, he used forged documents to board a plane to Italy. So investigators still do not know how Gilley got from Houston to Memphis, as that's a distance of over 500 miles. Incredible allegations. Veronica, Gilley has been fighting extradition since being arrested in May. He has cited concerns about facing the death penalty if he's sent back to the United States. There's an update on that, too. Yes. The Harris County District Attorney's Office has filed a formal waiver stating that they will not pursue the death penalty. Later this month, an Italian judge will decide what that means for Gilley's extradition. Okay, up next, we are checking in at a Virginia courthouse where it's week two in the murder trial of Naresh Bhat, who has been accused of killing his 28-year-old wife, Mamta. This is a case of a murder trial of Naresh Bhat, who has been accused of killing his 28-year-old wife, Mamta. This is a case we talked about last week, Veronica, and listeners might remember Mamta disappeared in July 2024. Her body has never been found, but prosecutors say there is enough circumstantial evidence to prove Naresh killed her. Opening statements got underway, and the prosecution focused on this idea of the American dream. Let's take a listen. Prosecution wanted the jury to get to know Naresh and Mamta a little bit. They were both immigrants from Nepal. Mamta was a pediatric nurse and a mom to their young daughter. Naresh was an IT consultant, and it was an American success story, which Naresh threw away, according to prosecutors, when he decided to kill Mamta. Veronica, what are they saying was his motive? The prosecutor said that Mamta had been making efforts to assert her independence, like get a bank account and a phone, and Naresh, didn't like that. And one of their first witnesses was a woman who said Mamta had confided in her that Naresh was having affairs and could be aggressive. She said he's been like hitting her so many times, he was cheating her. She found out like multiple chats and conversation with other girls. Since this is a no body case, how is the prosecution, Veronica, planning to overcome that? So the prosecution said that forensics from inside the home, plus security camera video of Naresh at the time Mamta disappeared, will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Naresh killed her. Naresh has pleaded not guilty. What has the defense had to say so far? The defense is focused, it's opening on the fact that there is not much hard evidence about what actually happened to Mamta. There is a sort of black hole at the time of Mamta Kafle's disappearance, and it's a hole where evidence should be. The hole that the government, will not be able to fill for you. They're going to try to fill the gap with ideas and speculations and guesses, but not with actual fact. And when they cross-examined Mamta's friend, she admitted that she had not seen Naresh hit Mamta with her own eyes and only heard about the alleged abuse from Mamta. Okay, finally, we are off to Las Vegas, Veronica, for the final chapter in a 30-year-old murder that went unsolved for decades. The shooting of hip-hop icon Tupac Shakur. On Tuesday afternoon, Dwayne Keith Davis, also known as Keefy D., a former gang leader, stood before a judge and was sentenced for masterminding Tupac's murder. He was convicted back in August after prosecutors presented evidence that Davis had planned the killing after Tupac beat up his nephew. Tupac's family was there for the sentencing. His sister, Setua Shakur, spoke, and she talked about what an icon her brother was and told the court what he would have been doing today had he been alive. The judge gave Davis an opportunity to speak. Did he say anything? Not much. He asked for his possessions back and said that he would appeal the case. Veronica, a focal point of the trial has been Davis's own words over the years. He had given interviews and even written in his memoir that he was involved in Tupac's murder. Before the judge handed down her sentence, she referred back to some of the things Davis said. I heard you say some variation of the same thing to law enforcement, to BET, in your book, and it's something like, yeah, I was involved in this, but I'm different. I've moved on. I got out of Compton. I'm a grandfather now. I'm here to tell you that's not how this works, okay? You don't get to take a man from his family. You don't get to take his very life, his whole future from him, and just walk away from it. What was Davis sentenced to ultimately? He was sentenced to 40 years to life for first-degree murder. Thank you for asking. Thank you for all of these updates, Veronica. Of course. Thanks for having me. For our final story this week, we're turning to campus safety. It's a topic that's come up a lot in our recent coverage, from the murder of UNC student Faith Hedgepeth to the sexual assault allegations at Cornell University. Just this week, Cornell outlined plans to expand support for students who are victims of sexual misconduct, including hiring more victim advocates and bringing in independent state police investigators. And that got us wondering, What resources are available to students if something happens to them? And what role does the college play when it comes to keeping students safe? Here to talk us through it is Simone Dixon, Assistant Director of Programs at the Cleary Center, a nonprofit dedicated to helping colleges and universities create safer campuses. And we also have retired detective and law enforcement expert Joseph Scaramucci, who has investigated several cases on college campuses. Simone and Joseph, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having us. Such an important topic. Before we get into the resources that are available, help us understand how common sexual assaults and other forms of violence are on college campuses. I mean, as of right now, I believe the statistics are still one in four college-age women, even though we know these crimes didn't happen to anyone. 18 to 24 will experience sexual violence in their lifetime. Yeah. And as a mom who has a daughter going off to college next year, one time. Is too many. I have college-age kids as well. And, you know, I think it's. I think statistics aside, it's a real-world issue that we have to worry about, right? Yeah. So, as a student who experiences sexual assault or another crime, what resources are available through the university? And what should students know before deciding where to turn first if something happens to them? I would say that above anything, students should know that they always have a choice. It's an agency in this situation. So, whether they choose to make a report and they only want to get accommodations or supportive measures, such as housing accommodations, changing in their academic or work schedule, but also assistance in filing a police report if they want to, getting a personal protection order, there's a slew of resources that the institution is obligated to provide under law. Simone, you work at the Clery Center, which takes its name from the Clery Act, a federal campus safety law that was named after. Jean Clery, who was raped and murdered in her dorm room in 1986. Tell us more about the Clery Act and what it requires campuses to do. Yeah. So, the Clery Act just holds colleges and universities accountable, making sure that their students, faculty, staff, potential students, and employees are safe and understand what does crime actually look like on their campus, but also what are the safety practices on their campus. Yeah. Just making it easy for someone. If they are a victim, to know where to go and what to do and who to talk to and making sure that they are armed with that information before something even happens. Yeah. I'm a strong advocate for any type of visual aid, whether that is just breaking down the reporting process, breaking down who to reach out to. Previously, when I did prevention work on a college campus, every year at orientation, I had the same shtick, if you will, where I was like, you see my face, I'm a person of support. My name is Ms. Dixon, Ms. D. You can call me that violence prevention lady. Just know if you need help, your friend needs help, you can come find me. And if I can't help you, I can at least connect you to someone who can. But absolutely having that information ahead of time and just like repeated doses. So, not just during orientation, not just during our awareness months, but on a regular basis. You can have them on the back of your bathroom doors. You can have them on stickers in the mirror. Just having this information presented in a way that, A, it's normalized, but also, B, that you are just aware of it. Joseph, what happens when a student does report a crime to the campus police? Do those officers have the same investigative authority as, say, a regular police department? Yeah. So, in my experience, law enforcement on college campuses have full authority, just like any other police officer in your state. They have the ability to investigate sexual assaults, really any crime that happens within campus or that they have jurisdiction on. And what kind of coordination? Do we usually see between campus police and, say, the town or the city police? Is it usually pretty good? Yeah, yeah. It's usually pretty good, depending on the style of campus in the state that you're in. Oftentimes, they're kind of cross-designated with each other anyway, especially if there is something that is kind of beyond the scope of what the campus law enforcement agency is proficient at. They will oftentimes pass that to agencies that do have very strong investigative units for, say, sexual assault or things of that nature. Right. Is there anything you two, any top piece of advice or tip for anyone listening with children who are in college or for a college student who might be listening? I always encourage people just to have trust in the system. There are a lot of very wonderful police officers, advocates, staff, and faculty at these colleges that genuinely care about what happens to you and what the outcome of this is. My one is continue to learn. So, every October. First, institutions are required to publish their annual security report. And that has all the information that will help you understand, like, what are the disciplinary proceedings? How do we end up getting to a place where these are the sanctioned folks have? How do I report? Where are the supportive networks on my campus or in my community? But then looking beyond that, keep having these conversations. Well, we're so grateful that you came on the podcast to talk about this so we can keep the conversation going. Simone and Joseph, thank you very much for all your insight and your advice for people on this very sensitive topic. Thank you. That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. And coming up this Friday, it's a case we've been covering from the beginning and one we've talked about right here on True Crime Weekly. You may remember the story of Kirby Carpenter, a Mississippi, businessman who was found murdered outside his own home. And you may remember the twists and turns in the investigation that eventually led police to someone close to him. This Friday, I'm bringing you the full story, including my interview with the man at the center of it all. Kirby's family says that you are a cold-blooded killer and you did this out of greed. That is absolutely not true. Watch The Betrayal of Kirby Carpenter this Friday at 9, 8 central on Dateline. on NBC. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, and Kiani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone-Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Veronica Mazzaca is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Thanks, everybody. Have a great day. ♪♪♪