Talking history with Patrick Gagan. This is News Talk. A special fight on the beaches, a special fight in the Gildo. A special never surrender. An out of the silent scheme. Thousands of voices. A strategy of the wake me has always been designed and accomplished. And once all they have prepared are to die a place for their time. I'll look to your own. I'll guess. I'll call you there. Good evening and welcome. We're Talking History on News Talk 106208 with me, Patrick Gagan. In tonight's show, we're exploring one of the most iconic and mythologized forces in world history, the Samurai. And we'll be debating whether they were really disciplines warriors bound by an ancient code, or whether this was a modern invention. You can send us your thoughts and comments to
[email protected] and we'd love to hear from you. For centuries, they've captured the imagination of the world. Warriors, clad and armor, wielding curved swords, guided by honor, loyalty and a mysterious code. But how much of what we think we know about the Samurai is actually true? The Samurai were more than warriors. They were administrators, artists, poets and political actors who shaped Japanese society for nearly a thousand years. In tonight's show, we'll explore the real history of the Samurai, how they emerged in medieval Japan, how they rose to political power, how they transformed during centuries of peace and how their image was reinvented in the modern world, from nationalist propaganda to Hollywood films and video games. And so to help me do this, I'm delighted to welcome our panel of experts. Dr. Rizina Buchland is creator of Japanese collections in the Department of Asia at the British Museum, and lead creator of their major new exhibition, Samurai, and she's also the co-author of the exhibition catalog Samurai. Jo Nichols is project curator for the British Museum Samurai exhibition, and is an artist's story in his work to explore as Japanese visual culture, and how the Samurai image evolved in modern media. Professor Alek Benesh is professor of modern history and head of the Department of History at the University of York, and is one of the leading historians of modern Japan. His work focuses on nationalism, identity and the invention of traditions, including the global myth of Bushido, and his books include Inventing the Way of the Samurai, Nationalism, Internationalism, and Bushido in modern Japan. Well, you're all very welcome, and Alek, I might begin with you, and a question based around your book Inventing the Way of the Samurai. How much of what we know and what we think we know about the Samurai is an invented tradition? That's a really good question. I mean, I think in that book, specifically I focus on this idea of Bushido or the Way of the Warrior, which is something that I think we can more specifically trace to a kind of specific period of invention in the late 19th century, where we have kind of a break the Samurai class, who have kind of been ruling Japan for, you know, 600, 700 years by that point, are abolished in the wake of the Pagy Restoration in 1868. So by the 1870s, you know, they're seen as these kind of feudal relics, and there's a couple of rebellions, and then the Samurai effectively know more. And so what we see then around kind of 1890s or so is kind of a renewed interest in the samurai, which is inspired also by Japanese travelers, and people who are engaging with the West, and they're seeing how the medieval past is being celebrated in Europe and the Americas. And they kind of come back and in Japan's search for a national identity at that time, as Japan is emerging as a modern nation state. Many people start kind of being drawn to this idea of the samurai as kind of this, this martial figure, this kind of symbol of the nation, and it kind of gets reinvented at that time. And so at that time from the 1890s, onward, we really see kind of these things being appropriated, reinvented. But these are also then drawing increasingly on earlier things, so they're drawing on earlier stories, they're drawing on an earlier imagery. And so it's not that kind of the samurai or much of the images completely being invented at that time. It's kind of just being repurposed and recast to kind of fit what I would almost call kind of a modern mold in kind of nationalism, which is spreading around the world at that time. And so really kind of picking these things apart is quite difficult. And you know, that's what we're trying to do now with the exhibition and some of the other work we're doing. And even the way of the samurai, Boshido, it was described as the soul of Japan. I think the book published in the 19th century had this subtitle, The Soul of Japan, and Theodore Roosevelt, the American president, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for helping to broker that peace between Russian Japan. I think it was so enamored of the book he gave it to many of his friends and it's interesting the way it got very much tied into the politics of that period and what was happening in terms of Japan at that time. Oh, yes, very much so. And I mean, as I said, the book is essentially written in 1899 that the first editions start coming out in 1900. So right at the turn of the century, Nito Bayna, those rights that I mean, he's a Japanese, either Quaker, and he's largely educated in English language. He writes the book while he's in the United States, actually. It's written in English and kind of does become this this global bestseller around the time of the rest of Japanese wars in 1904, 1904, 1905, as you know, Japan shocks the world by defeating this great Western empire and people are looking for a reason for this and that Japan is able to overcome this much larger empire in Russia. And people in the start focusing on on Bushido on this way of the samurai. And the word Bushido is really not widely used before the 1890s. I mean, we do find it in the handful of kind of pre-modern texts. I mean, it's an easy word to construct way of the warrior, but there isn't really a widely accepted kind of samurai ethic or way of the samurai or anything like that really before the 1890s. It's constructed and it really becomes like a global phenomenon at that time. I think probably everywhere in the world people will know what what Bushido is and they'll recognize it in the wake of the Russo-Japanese war. And so it's the first time actually, I think that the samurai really become a truly global icon, which is similar to the status they actually have again today in the early 21st century. And let's talk about that global phenomenon before we go back in time at thousand years and trace the evolution of the samurai. They are so iconic in terms of movies and video games and the iconography that we can all picture a samurai in our heads. And you have great movies like the Seven Samurai, but you also have them influencing other movies, including films like Star Wars. There's so much of our popular culture that is influenced and shaped and it really is a global phenomenon. Oh, very definitely. And as you say, you know, some of us, our akkiteras films especially are influencing westerns and Star Wars, but you know, he himself, when he's creating many of his most famous samurai films in the 1950s, he's drawing on the cowboy westerns that he was watching in the 1930s, especially films by people like John Ford. So these things are kind of influencing one another. The samurai, and we like to kind of say that the samurai are uniquely Japanese in this symbol that is in the way it's constructed, but it's not purely Japanese by any means. That's one of the big threads we have kind of running to the exhibition and project is these global interactions from from the very beginning and I think one thing that we really see now in the early 21st century. And then I think I'm kind of a key moment in this is probably the last samurai with with Tom Cruise, you know, which I think appears in 2003. But then more recently, you know, we have games like Ghost of Tushima, we have Disassist Cree, Chadows, Game, we have the Shogun series that recently came out. And I think what's interesting about all of these things is that they are not produced in Japan, you know, they're being produced by usually European or American studios for a global audience. So the samurai have become this kind of this global kind of vehicle for content almost that you know, you can, you know, regardless of where you're based, you can create a samurai game, you can create a samurai film. And you know, it's this and it's going to succeed most likely. You know, it could be a blockbuster around the world. Regardless of whether it was actually produced in Japan or how it even is received in Japan. There's the great line in the John Ford film, the man who shot Liberty Valence about when the legends becomes fact print the legend. And I wonder when you see how powerful the legend is in the 21st century and how dominant the iconography is. I wonder how possible it is to challenge or to add nuance to it, to correct some of the elements that are not right or maybe provide context to the parts that are. And I wonder how frustrating is it to maybe try to take on the legends when it is so powerful and pervasive? Yeah, I mean, that's that's a really good really good question and I mean, I think that's that's kind of where I started when I start working on on.
this topic session around Bushido about 25 years ago now is kind of encountering these legends and trying to actually get to the bottom of them. And you know, starting in the medieval period and working my way forward to try to find where when this idea actually was kind of created and became a big thing. And a big part of that was to try and counter some of these things. But it is incredibly difficult and you know, an act in a big monograph is that's usually not that inexpensively priced is probably not going to be the main way to do it. But I do think we we are seeing a bigger shift now in attitudes towards the samurai in probably the last 15 years or so where you know, if we look at online for and various other things people are discussing it with more nuance. And I think all of these things also being produced in other countries but in Japan they do reflect more of this diversity of the samurai that we really you know that we we try to bring forward out in the exhibition as well. I mean it is often very contentious. I mean one example of this was around the Assassin's Creed shadows game when that came out last year. You know the playable characters and that made ones it's you know the black samurai and they were meningya and there was a lot of debate around that and you know whether that was something that should be done you know is you know historically maybe questionable but you know how much license can you take with this. But I think just the fact that there were these debates being had both in Japan and other countries really reflective people can do different things with it now and people are seeing that oh yeah there was a lot more there's a lot more to this and we also see it in many the headlines that we've we've kind of met that have met the exhibition with headlines the title such as you know new exhibition finds that half of samurai are women and you know that's just the fact that you know members of the warrior class could be women at any point in time I think would maybe surprise quite a lot of people you know we aren't saying that you know half the the people in the battlefield where women are even a substantial part but I think just that that little bit that you know when the when the samurai become a defined social class and like all social classes pretty much around the world half of them are going to be women and I think just that simple idea already represents kind of a bit of a shift that people are engaging with that and are thinking about and asking more about it so a lot of people are kind of going beyond the headlines to actually see what's going on and so I think I think that's that's kind of I think there are shifts especially in the last you know 10-15 years and you know if we're able to contribute to that a little bit you know then I think that would be fantastic but I can't help thinking that if we were to make a television series about that middle period of the samurai when they did become a social class and you did have women's samurai and you did have you know there was a more of an emphasis on on governing and leadership in in the arts and you had a samurai who were poets and painters and so on I just think if there was that television show showing the samurai is as poets and painters and that there were women samurai I think there would be such a backlash from certain sections who would say this program has gone all woke you know they've destroyed our image of the samurai how dare they and some people would get very angry because we weren't conforming to the images they have in their head yeah no I think that's that's certainly a part of it and it's it's an interesting one because I think within within Japan I think there's there's obviously much more knowledge about the samurai and I don't think people in Japan would generally be surprised at the kind of Edo period this kind of middle period the early modern that we're talking about where they are a social class at the period of peace and I think you know a lot of samurai content so to speak films and other things in Japan do deal with that that period and and are often very kind of realistic and whereas I think oftentimes especially maybe in other countries that we really just have this idea of the samurai has kind of the adult male warrior in armor and we don't have this kind of image of the samurai during peace time and and partly that has to do with with the word samurai itself which is something we engage with in the exhibition as well is is the word samurai as samurai in Japanese is not really used in Japanese is like a catch all term for warriors and and so in Japanese that term samurai is really specific to certain groups at certain times the word bushi or warriors much more kind of all encompassing and so I think when people in in Japan would hear that like oh yeah half of samurai women then they think oh but that's the very specific group that is the male warriors at this time or these other things so I think but if you then say oh but if it's these other the more social class side of things then oh yeah that makes complete sense so a lot of this is around terminology and that's an interesting one that in English or in other European languages you know we have this word samurai that we seem to think you know kind of is this all encompassing term that would be used in Japanese as well when the usage is a really quite quite different well let's go back in time at thousand years then to the origins of the samurai and it is fascinating to see how a group that really begins as as as mercenary warriors who would be hired by the aristocrats and provincial governors how they over time built military power how they became a dominant political class and I suppose how they were able to take advantage of chaos caused by the imperial succession and various political disputes to to really become a dominant political and military force yeah so I think it's interesting it I mean they originally arise there as kind of you have the court which is very closely modeled on Chinese modeled in kind of the capitals which you know a thousand years ago would be in the city hey on or at what's now Kyoto and and now the in order for them to then kind of keep control over their lands most of the courtiers are staying in the court and they're kind of hiring these mercenaries out to the countryside to look after their their lands and these you know warriors then out the countryside start becoming more and more powerful in their own right and kind of taking some of the control and so then we have certain conflict in the eleventh and twelfth centuries between these different groups of warriors as they are growing more and more powerful and start competing over kind of land between one another and also with the court and then the end of the twelfth century we have these kind of two very large warrior families which essentially end up having a there's a conflict in the eleventh and eighties and the gameplay war which by the end of that the victorious Minamoto family end up setting up with the first chogun at the first warrior government and they set it up in in what is at that time the far east of Japan in Kamakura which is just south of where Yokohama is today or close to Tokyo and that's the first time we actually have you know kind of this warrior government that's opposed to the imperial court I mean it's not for the warriors are necessarily in control at that time but we start seeing this kind of this alternate power base kind of forming at that point and over the course of especially kind of the thirteenth century and then by the early thirteenth century you know the warriors are very much in charge and the imperial court has lost most of its authority aside from kind of a brief resurgence attempt at resurgence in the thirteenth thirteenth joh it's a fascinating exhibition and it's even fascinating when we when we look at the the iconography of the samurai the the curve swords and and then see that this wassen's always even the the main weapon and that the bow was hugely important the early samurai were mounted archers and and use the bow quite considerably and it really changes how we even how we imagine this the samurai in our heads the popular perception of the samurai as these sword wielding armoured warrior's with not their their only facet as as you say they emerge as mounted arches but if you look at the types of paintings that they present of themselves it's quite often as courtiers as oleg said it was in parallel with the imperial court and it's really the imperial court that gives legitimacy to these warriors and so you see them presented in these other ways and I think when you come to the exhibition you're met by a clip from shogun which shows the important power plays that developed amongst these these warriors and they're often taking place in social settings where they're not in armour and they are demonstrating their courtly conduct their connoisseurship of culture and that's just as important as being successful on the battlefield and show the armor that again we associate with the samurai it's fascinating to see how much of that was was shaped in influence by interactions with the rest of the world and with europe and as as guns were developed then there was changes made to try and and combat that in terms of the helmets to make the commanders more identifiable and and and this changes because of the way the samurai are interacting and engaging with the world yes they evolve when you come to the exhibition you see a a footage of armour called an oyeroi which is that early type of armour that's designed for mounted archery is quite boxy you've got these really large shoulder guards that are designed to be shielded
and there are these special bits of armour that are on the chest that when you draw your arrows it's lost into place to protect your underarms and these eventually disappear after the shogunet, that first shogunet that Oleg was talking about, there's a resurgence of fighting and this fighting is much more about infantry, combat and there needs to be lighter, more mobile armour and so there's a development in its its parent but then as you say there's also this need to be seen on the battlefield, identifiable for your troops and so there's a huge influx of individuated helmets and the presentation of the individual but even in these early armour you had different ways of identifying who you were battling, in one of Tom Conlon's article he writes about how the different threads that are woven into the armour that actually were colour coded for different families and different ranks and so from the very beginning samurai had a way of being identifiable on the battlefield and then as you say with the arrival of firearms you have the development of bulletproof armour and so it really shows how the samurai are, they are uniquely Japanese, they are always responding to different encounters either encounters with themselves and the different type of combat that they are utilising or with an international framework with weapons but even beneath that they would often use exotic foreign textile to embellish their armour so there's a real awareness of trade and international connectivity. Rosina it's a fascinating exhibition and it's fascinating to see how the samurai became a social class and a powerful class and that you had to then be born into it and it became such a crucial part of deciding where the power lay in the country at the time. Yes, well the samurai had rested power from the imperial court right back in the 1180s and there was this parallel situation, the parallel imperial court and shogunal court, one of them is in Kyoto, one of them is in Kamakura in the east and the samurai class are not so established in those earlier centuries there's an elite that is in control of the political situation they are running the country but as Jo explained there are these periods of intermittent warfare, clan rivalries, it is unstable, there is the social fluidity and then finally around 1600 through to 1615 there's this crystallisation of power in Tokugawa, EASU, he's the third of the three unifiers it takes decades to achieve this stability but I think there must have been a sense of relief that the battles were over now, peace and prosperity had been achieved and ultimately it was 250 years of peace and as you said the samurai are established as a social class, Tokugawa EASU's predecessor had tried to lock down the social classes, he'd begun that process and EASU consolidates that and there were four classes within society which based on a Chinese principle the structure is taken from Chinese culture the samurai are at the top, they are the ones who assert that they are worthy to rule, they are the educated elite and then you have agricultural labourers beneath them, artisans and merchants and the samurai have the power but they don't always have the money because it's a complex situation where they collect the taxes, all of the classes of samurai are given stipends by the government so they have a secure income but they have to change that into cash, they are given the stipend in rice, they have to change it into cash and as we know currency rates, exchange rates fluctuate so there are from it a disadvantage financially even if they hold the power. Well tonight we are talking about the samurai we're going to take a quick break now when we come back we'll find out about the role of women in samurai culture and whether peace eventually led to the downfall of the samurai so stay with us here on News Talk. Welcome back we're talking history and tonight we are talking about the samurai I'm rejoined by my brilliant panel of experts Dr. Rizina Buchland, creator of Japanese collections in the Department of Asia at the British Museum and lead creator of the major exhibition Samurai and that's running until the 4th of May and she's also the co-author of the exhibition catalog Samurai. Joe Nichols is project curator for the British Museum Samurai exhibition and is an artist story in his work explores Japanese visual culture and how the samurai image evolved. Professor Alek Benesch is professor of modern history and head of the Department of History at the University of York and is one of the leading historians of modern Japan and his books include Inventing the Way of the Samurai, Nationalism, Internationalism and Boshido in modern Japan and also co-authored that brilliant museum catalog book and on Thursday the 23rd of April from 530 to 630 pm listeners can join a free zoom online lecture with elegant colleagues on samurai the making of a global icon and Rizina I wanted to ask you about women who were fighters because there are some examples of women who took to the field but also the way women integrated into this culture and that sometimes you see the the major women figures involved in the defense of a castle and you see them really playing very significant roles as well as their other significant tasks that they were involved with. Yes it's important to remember initially samurai doesn't mean warrior so we're talking about them as a class of people samurai means subordinate and there are other words in Japanese so in the exhibition we talk about them as this class that's gradually emerging through the Middle Ages and the women are playing roles that women played in medieval or early modern cultures across the world they're very often in the domestic sphere and there's a very very small number of combatants female combatants who are recorded in the chronicles and as you said sometimes defensive roles they're left in charge of the the homestead the fortress while the lord is away and they might be commanding the troops they might be engaged in self-defense but then as the centuries pass their role is very much established in that domestic sphere they're running the households and in the centuries after 1615 when there is this long period of peace that's exclusively what they're doing they're running the households which can be quite a complex operation there could be tens of retainers and servants you have to keep an eye on all of those manage their work provision the household organize events your hosting guests there's a lot of protocol and etiquette involved in all of that paying visits to other households negotiating marriages for your children and before that overseeing the education of your children with different roles for boys or different expectations and roles for boys and for girls and the question about the peace you know we've talked about it from it's that period 1600 to 1615 when things change and then you have that long period of peace afterwards and while that was great for the samurai in terms of their class and it allowed them to develop in such ways taking a major role leading scholarship in the arts and you see them as painters and poets and it's very significant culturally for their development but I wonder was there a downside because you kind of lose part of your your your major you know selling point the fact that you also have this huge military power and strength and then when that's no longer needed or when that's no longer necessary perhaps that does as time go on make you less relevant and important well I think you're right that the risk is there and they were very conscious of that so the military identity the warrior identity remained very important throughout that long period of peace perhaps even more important because they're no longer engaging in that reality of fighting they have to maintain their image as warriors so the armor continues to be made it's handed down across generations a suit might have heirloom pieces aspects to it and in parts that and it then gets refurbished so to speak but you have to have that suit of armor you have to wear the two swords to show that you are a samurai to show that you are a warrior the imagery remains very important and they're engaging in military training in swordsmanship and in archery so they can maintain that identity and there's never a guarantee that peace will continue there's always an anxiety the the lords all the way up to the shogun are looking over their shoulder thinking somebody might stage a rebellion somebody might try to grab power to rest it away from me and that does ultimately happen in the 1850s so they never give up on that warrior identity they understand that it's very important to maintain it to justify their position at the top of society but it seems to me to be putting them in a weaker position when it is so stratified by class and that there are there is this hierarchy and that there is this division between the different groups in society whether you're a samurai or a farmer or whoever you are that you're not choosing it's not it's they're not selecting the best young people to to go forward to become samurai that it becomes like any any other kind of feudal system or
It has its weaknesses built into it. I think there's enough potential for recruitment within the samurai class itself. It's 10% of the population, but you're absolutely right that there's an acknowledgement of the need to recruit based on ability. And even though there are quite fixed ranks within the samurai class, they found ways to get around that. There's widespread adoption in Japan in the early modern period. It's a standard practice that you can basically be appointed as the heir. And you might be adopted, so to speak, as an adult. So you can be adopted into a different family of higher status. They would also provide supplement to your stipend so that you could qualify for a higher level job. So there's a lot of writing during the 18th and 19th centuries about the need to recruit based on talent. So Rosina, what went wrong then in the 19th century? Why did it all come to an end? Why did they come to be seen as relics or symbols of a bygone time? Well, there was some resentment to the samurai. There was class tension that they were felt to be living off the work, the efforts of other people because they are at the top of society gathering the taxes that from the crops and the products that other people have produced. But really, what pushes things to change is foreign pressure from the 1820s onwards. There had been US and Russian ships circling Japan shores. And that pressure increased through the 1830s and 40s. There were internal disruptions, bad weather crossed crop failures. There were rice riots about inflation that was occurring in the rice market. And finally in 1853, you get the American gunships coming in demanding that Japan open, that it engage in trade, that it open up for provisioning of ships for wailing operations. And Japan is basically forced to sign treaties with the US and then with other nations. And this destabilizes an already fragile political situation. And ultimately the shogunate collapses in 1867. There have been also its effectional struggles within Japan and internal battles leading up to that. And a new government has established the following year in 1868 by members of the samurai class, that large 10% and it tends to be the frustrated, lower-ranking samurai who are pushing for more participation, more representation in the government. They create a new regime, which we call the "Majorijim", the name of the era. And there's a realization that Japan needs to modernize to avoid being taken over by foreign powers. And again, it is that drive to recruit based on talent that a hereditary class system is felt to be no longer relevant to the modern age. They have to embark on a program of modernization, westernization, that's largely technological, but it's also social. All of society has reorganized. These classes based on a Chinese system are abolished and the majority of the population become commoners. And that brings us back to where we started talking at the very beginning of the show about how then you have this process of the construction and reinvention of an image of the samurai and how you have this new reconstruction of what the samurai is and how it becomes politically important but also culturally important. No, exactly. And how some of these things are then reinvention. And one thing I was maybe touched on briefly is you mentioned the samurai having a weaker position in the early modern period in this period of peace. And as Rosina mentioned, they're trying to demonstrate their usefulness. They're arguing for their usefulness as role model for society. But also, it's very visible in the fact that they're carrying two swords. And that then becomes the symbol essentially of the samurai. And so, I think these two swords in the early 17th century that then last all the way until 1876 when the carrying of swords is abolished. So, I mean, we're looking at exactly 150 years ago now. And a lot of people see that as the end of the samurai. But it's interesting, as Joe mentioned, you know, before that, you know, the samurai often mounted archers. They're using pike. They're using different things. Sores are not really a major battlefield weapon at any point. And during the early modern period, they really become so strongly associated with the samurai. And then in the late 19th century, almost after the samurai are abolished, you know, the sword is one of the things that really remains as a symbolic kind of object of what the samurai are. And now, you know, today, you know, you couldn't make a samurai video game or film or anything else without swords. And, you know, they are beautiful objects. You know, we have several amazing ones in the exhibition. They're also very durable. You know, we have swords that are hundreds and hundreds of years old, whereas, you know, bows and arrows and some other things, I think they'd have leather wood just don't last that long. But I think that then is part of this kind of construction of the image. Sores are also things that you can give as diplomatic gifts. So you can give them to the British royal family, for example. And you can then receive kind of Western weapons in exchange, like ceremonial swords or guns or other things. And I think this material culture is also a big part of this reinvention. And that extends to things like castles as well, which are reinvented and kind of repurposed as military bases. This is again something we also, you know, this being modeled on in many cases on kind of Victorian and kind of more European ideas towards kind of the medieval past and kind of the celebration of the neogorfic, the Tower of London and, you know, the Tower Bridge and things like that. And we see something similar going on in Japan and this kind of celebration of the medieval and the reconstruction of that in the service of nationalism. And so when we look at what is kind of symbolic of the samurai now, and we have to think about, you know, how much of that is actually kind of probably constructed after the 1870s, you know, after they are effectively abolished. And, you know, we're kind of, we're kind of looking then back to earlier centuries, often through kind of lenses that are almost kind of ground in the period around 1900, I would say. And so often kind of picking those things apart can be a bit difficult. Joe, how are people responding to the exhibition? Are you attracting people from all ages and walks of life? And are they intrigued and fascinated to see that the story is more complicated and more interesting than they would have thought? I believe so. When we go into the gallery spaces when the exhibition is open, I'm amazed by the diversity of the people who are attending, everybody from every age group is there. And I do really enjoy going over hearings and comments and conversations that are happening. I think it's very interesting to see what people are responding to. I think the artistry of the samurai, the fact that they came to Europe in the 1560s, has been very interesting for the audience. I think samurai women has been a very fascinating topic for people to encounter. And then also the objects in this modern and contemporary section of the exhibition, I think, have introduced new ideas to people about how are we continuing to create images based on the samurai. And also now that people know that the samurai themselves from the moment they really existed were also creating images of themselves. And it's continuing this legacy of image making. And that's a big part of the exhibition. And we've got three special commissions in the exhibition. One is addressed by L'Enfant, produced by the artistic director Peter Copping. He's reflecting on the dual history of the samurai as both warrior and peacetime bureaucrat. And so I think people are quite excited to see how samurai history is permeating into not just film and TV, but also fashion and contemporary art as well. And we have a sculpture and a painting by the Japanese artist Noguchi Teppia, which also speaks to this reflection of how does the historic samurai fit into the modern world. Well, we are talking history and tonight we are talking about the samurai. And when we take a quick break and return, we're going to find out more about how the samurai have evolved and how their image has become so powerful in the modern world. So stay with us here on NewsTook. Welcome back. We're talking history and tonight we are talking about the history of the samurai. I'm rejoined by my brilliant panel of experts, Dr. Rizina Buchland, the creator of Japanese collections at the British Museum and the lead creator of its brilliant new exhibition, Samurai. Joe Nichols, project creator for the British Museum Samurai exhibition, Professor Alec Benish, Professor of Modern History and Head of the Department of History at the University of York and the author of "Inventing the Way of the Samurai and Co-author of that paperback catalog on the samurai with Rizina." Now, Joe, let's continue this discussion about the image of the samurai and how it evolves, how it changes, how it gets reimagined and recast because it's extraordinary the way it's such a powerful image and the way it gets used in TV shows and movies and all around us and how that image shapes then how we understand so much of this period of history. Absolutely, I think the film. of a kid of Kursawa that were released in the 1950s really kick-started a global interest in representations of the samurai. And as many people know, seven samurai was the inspiration for even cowboy films in America that they lived in seven. And so it really impacts a global shift on popular culture. And there are even video games that still exist today, such as "Nobanaga's Ambition", which is the longest-running samurai video game, which began in the 1980s. And so there's really a phenomenally long interest in samurai within popular culture. And today that has been used in very famous stories of revenge, stories of heroes, stories of historical occasions. But then also in fun and fantasy, we've got some clips from the popular anime series "Gin Tamma", which is a sci-fi reimagining of the late Edo period. So it's really fascinating to see just the diverse reinterpretations of the samurai. But I think for me one of the things I've enjoyed thinking about in relation to particularly to the video games is how that's an extension from the Kabuki plays, which were very important in creating and spreading the image of the samurai. I sort of see those plays as a way for people to physically embrace the long dead heroes of the Gempei Wars. And actually video games are a modern reinterpretation of that, where you can embody a samurai and play as them. So there's a really interesting continuation through play of this samurai image. And do you think the fact that the image of the samurai is so adaptable that that's been a great strength as well, because they can be everything from heroic warriors to complex anti-heroes to poets and artists and whatever else you want to present them as? Yes, I think even if you look at the Kabuki plays as a whole variety of tropes that the samurai could be on stage. And so I think even from their very early conception as characters, they've really endeared themselves to this kind of youth within media. And as Oleg said, from the 1900s, there's been a real romanticization of the samurai. So even within popular perception, they've become symbolic. They are a myth. They are to be played with and to be used. And that can be used for popular media. But then as Oleg has implied, it's also been used for nationalism and militarism and used during the very complicated period of the early 20th century. And this is very briefly on Joe's point. So as Joe just mentioned, you know, the samurai image is used in the service of nationalism in Japan and that's a big part of its reinvention. And I think one of the things I mentioned earlier, you know, we have this time around the Russo-Japanese War in 1904-05 where the samurai becomes this global icon and are celebrated everywhere. And we are kind of back there in the sense in the early 21st century. But there is a period in kind of the 20th century, especially in the 1930s and 1940s where this becomes much more controversial where, you know, this use of kind of nationalistic purposes in Japan. And the samurai become a symbol also of kind of militarism and imperialism within Japan. They're being used by the imperial army, by the state to support a lot of kind of indoctrination of troops to support the imperial army in places like China in the 1930s and then, you know, the Second World War in any stage of the Pacific War. But at the same time, the samurai are also being used by other countries to kind of essentially kind of symbolize Japan. So as we get into the 1930s in Germany and Italy, which are, you know, allies of Japan at that point and going to the Second World War, the samurai are seeing this field as very kind of positive heroic figure of this emblem of their ally, whereas in Britain and the United States, and especially in Britain, which had really set celebrated the samurai figure in the early 1900s through the First World War. When you get into the Second, into the 1930s, you know, the samurai become a really negative kind of image in symbol of Japan. And you know, they become emblematic of a lot of the kind of atrocities and kind of aggression and things that happen in the Second World War. And so it's interesting at that time, and I think actually the samurai has a symbol or maybe more important for countries outside of Japan during the Second World War than they are kind of within Japan, which is interesting. But that also feeds into, you know, Joe was talking earlier about kind of samurai films and the popularity of things in the 1950s. But there was a lot of work that these things had to do to kind of overcome the legacy of the Second World War and how the samurai was being used kind of by all sides during that time. And so that kind of recovery took a very, very long time. We still have some echoes of that today. I mean, there are still some responses to the exhibition, other things that are kind of still, you know, echoing some of the sentiments that we had from the 1930s and 1940s. And we do address this period in the exhibition and the various facets of it. And because it is something that, you know, you can't just kind of skip over, it's a really important period in the history of the symbol of the samurai. Rosina, how difficult was it to construct an exhibition and devise an exhibition that told the story of the samurai over effectively a thousand years in terms of their creation, their existence, how they remembered, and how the image is presented. And what story were you trying to tell or what were the key things you wanted people to take away from a visitor to the exhibition? It's a complicated process, certainly, and it's taken a few years. The majority of the objects in the exhibition are from the British Museum's collection, 75% of the exhibits. And then we've got 29 lenders who are very generously supplied a wonderful range of objects from here within Europe and from Japan, from America. The image has been an important part all the way through. We wanted to show that this has been produced, manipulated, used to determine the way that the samurai have been perceived, whilst they were in operation right from the the ten hundreds through to the 1800s. And after their abolition in the afterlife of the samurai, as we've already talked about with this, the use again, a manipulation of the image when it becomes pure fiction because there's no longer a class called samurai. And we wanted to make sure that there was a range of the military equipment, the armour, the weapons, that primacy of the archery, mounted archery, as we've already discussed. And to balance that out with culture, that it's very important to emphasise, culture is equally important to military prowess. You have to prove your worth and you have to balance brute force out with cultural accomplishments. And that's true from the Middle Ages through the early modern period. So they had to be the paintings, the ceramics, the metalwork, the lacquer, the wonderful robes, costumes of various sorts that the samurai wore so we could try to embody some of the figures. And then those representations in the early modern period, the prints and books. And coming into the modern era, it's actually, it's harder to find material from the late 19th century, early 20th century. The ideal is more abstract, there's less visual representation, but we've brought together a really interesting range there. But in the post-war period, we're almost spoiled for choice. There are so many video games, manga, anime, TV, programs, films, and Joe did a tremendous amount of work pulling all of those pieces of intellectual property together and staging our designers staged a wonderful presentation of all of that material in montages of the digital. And then we've got associated objects that complement that digital delivery. And Joe, why is it that we are still so interested in the samurai? Is it because, at the heart of it all, we are intrigued by a group that at least in terms of the popular image represent a code of honor? Is it that the imagery of the samurai is so iconic for us that we can't help but be interested in their story? Why is it that the idea of a show on the samurai or an exhibition on the samurai or a book or a program on the samurai captures the imagination of the wider public? Well, I think you've in that question answered so many of the qualities of this group of people, but also the word it's something that has global recognition. It has entered into almost every culture worldwide. And so there is this reach, there's this interest. I think it's a topic where people feel it's somewhat familiar, but they might not know the full depth of it. And so having an opportunity to go and experience it, I think is very important. But also I think as I alluded to earlier, we've got this sculpture by the Japanese artist Noguchi Tetsuya, who really thinks that the samurai I think
experience of universal he believes that the samurai encapsulates something that we all experience you know for all of the many heroes the famous samurai that we know there are countless nameless samurai who are lost to conflict on the battlefield or bureaucracy in the Tokugawa administration and it's very similar to what we all might feel today when we are inputting into our Excel spreadsheet something monotonous something which is forgettable so they are simultaneously iconic but at the same time their experiences may be familiar to us and so I think there's something which we can really project on and learn from the samurai. Do you think of a samurai from the 12th century or the 16th century or the 18th century came to the exhibition or even watched some of these movies about the samurai or some of the TV programs do you think they would recognize themselves in it or would they be astonished at how their story and their lives have been reinvented so significantly? Well I'd be very intrigued if one particular samurai came which was Ashikaga Yoshitaru who's a shogun from the medieval period and we have a painting of him in the exhibition and from the 1500s and at the end of the exhibition we actually have a small figurine from the franchise Torken Rando which is a trading card game that is anthropomorphic embodiment of famous swords and we have a figurine called Munichika who is the embodiment of his sword so I would be very intrigued to see if this samurai remembered or recognized his sword in human form I think the different centuries the samurai are very different and I would be very intrigued by the different reactions they might have but certainly if they were from the Edo period I think they would very much enjoy some of the films it was a period of entertainment there's lots of pleasure and leisure that happened in that time so I think that would be very interesting for them and we actually have one film that is called Akoroshi which is even though it's a film it's very much set and directed like a kabuki play of the very famous tales of the 47 Ronin from the 1700s so it'd be intriguing to see if they enjoy this digital reenactment of a kabuki play well I think they would be very impressed with that brilliant new exhibition at the British Museum on the Samurai it's running until the 4th of May my thanks to my panel of experts for talking us through the history of the samurai over a thousand years and such a global phenomenon of the samurai story so my thanks to Dr. Rizina Buchland the creator of Japanese collections at the British Museum and the lead creator of that exhibition and the co-author of the exhibition catalog Joe Nichols the project creator for the British Museum samurai exhibition and a wonderful art historian professor Oleg Benish professor modern history at the University of York whose books include Inventing the Way of the Samurai and he's the co-author of that British Museum catalog book Samurai with Rizina and that's available from the British Museum online shop or indeed elsewhere online and as I say there is a zoom talk that you can join on Thursday the 23rd of April from 5 30 pm and you can find the details about that from the British Museum website as well but that does bring us to the end of another edition of Talking History my thanks to my producer Marais O'Sullivan for bringing everything together we hope you can join us next week for more debate and discussion we've been talking history good night
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