#sambalpodcasts: Rape Culture in Schools-How it Affects Girls? (ft Aissa, Founder of Seek to Speak)

I am Aisa from Seek To Speak and you are listening to Sambal Podcast by the Sambal Pod. Woohoo! I mean, I hope that's okay. I would like to warn our listeners that this episode speaks about real culture and sexual harassment. Plastic may trigger unpleasant memories and trauma to some of us. Remember, it is totally fine to hit the pause button when it gets too uncomfortable for you. Because even for me as the editor of this episode, I definitely struggled with editing some of this audios. Fun fact, it actually took me four days to edit this which is the longest I've spent for any podcast episode. So it's totally fine to hit pause when you're not ready for these conversations. But remember to also seek help if you need it because all help lines and links are in our episode description. Now better episode, this is A.G. and you're listening into #SambalPodcast by the Sambal Pod. This is a platform where we invite local youths and youth initiatives to discuss their views and impacts of their work in the local landscape. Tune in to this episode as we speak to Aya and Aisa, the founder of Seek To Speak, a local youth initiative that aims to empower expression through its events. Welcome to Aya Nusniza's case. We have been more aware than ever about how unsafe our Malaysian schools are. We have seen the hashtag #MalaysiaSchoolsBetterPlace have movements like Save To School Malaysia. So how is the situation today? Last year about what Aya and Aisa has to say on the matter. Yeah, we have two Ayaans here. One Aya Nusniza from her from a very famous case last year and our guest Aya and Aisa on to the show today. So yes, we have two Ayaans being betters families. So we also spoke about how the government denied this method first and how we actually see changes and impacts today. Within the conscious of people, it's like, oh I didn't know that was a bad thing but now people are having conversations about it. People are being more and more aware that some things are inappropriate that teachers, educators should act in a certain way, especially because of the level of trust that we have towards them and not just in terms of awareness of things that are right and wrong but I think in terms of systems as well, the impact that it has had because a lot of people are saying, you know, things are not being done, laws are not changed but since the movement last year, we have seen the government for example saying that period spot checks is now illegal to be done in schools. Whether or not it is followed, is another issue but the fact that there is a top-down policy that is telling public schools, public universities that this is now not allowed to be done by teachers, I think it's a big deal and I think it was only or could have only been done because of the traction that the Make School of Safer Place campaign had done because if you look at the government's reaction when it just first started out, the first thing that they said was show me the numbers. Does this really happen? The woman's ministry said, oh it doesn't happen in school. I never, she said herself, I think it was Rina who said that, oh I was in a boarding school, it never happened to me. Yeah, so first what they did was deny it. The director general of NUTP which is National Union of the Teaching Professions says it doesn't exist. In fact, he says there is no rape culture because he seems to think that rape culture just means people raping each other. So we saw from the get go, the women's ministry, the education ministry, the teaching profession saying that this is not a problem and one year on, period sport checks is banned and one year on, a government is saying that they're actually going to set up a special committee to check on whether or not harassment really happens and if it does happen. When we talk about gender issues, right, like sexual harassment, rape, it is always a very emotional topic because I think a lot of us at either witness cases like this or became survivors ourselves. Some of us I believe would just decide to hate the world in silence without realising how common this is and that you're not truly alone. I am not sharing my personal story today but as a student about to enter the working world, I realised that the torment does not end and it's more of an issue of me thinking that it is my fault in some way. How long is this torture? Yes, I use the word torture. It's going to haunt more girls and women like me. Things is not clear for so many people and which is a shame because it's easily explained through comprehensive sexual education or through conversations but because it's not something that we talk about because it's so embarrassing to so many people, teachers are not properly trained to talk about it, parents don't like to talk about it, it is a taboo topic, it just never gets addressed so nobody really understands what it really means for a victim when they get raped. It is terrible and it can come in many forms and that doesn't mean their hurt or trauma is any less terrible just because it wasn't done by a stranger violently. Several months before the Iron Housniza's case last year, the whole Malaysia had soon became familiar with the term period sports checks. As a former boarding school student myself, this is not an uncommon culture to me where female students were asked to show their pets or underwear as proof of demonstration, slash periods. This had become some sort of practice in ashrama schools relating to religion as religious educators also known as ustazas to some of us would command this practice to ensure that these students do not skip their prayers. I remember calling this practice crazy the first time I've witnessed it and heard of it but later on I just became a blended background not having the courage to report this out of fear and only last year I realised how this barbaric practice I became became a tradition for so many decades in many boarding schools so many places for us where these schools were actually second homes for so many of us. Even outside of boarding schools, it can't really happen to anyone and I think that's what everybody has to understand that it doesn't just happen to girls who don't do a certain thing or bad girls it can happen to anyone and the second thing is everybody needs to understand is if something is uncomfortable and something is awkward and it makes you feel embarrassed, ashamed then there's something wrong there and if you have to ask your students to carry out something you don't want to do or if you have to turn against other students because of some perceived sense of justice because you hate what is being done for you so you want to take down other people with you then there's something wrong there as well and if you can't voice out your discomfort and you are not taken seriously when you voice out your discomfort when logic goes out the window because honestly there was no rationale for them to check you absolutely not but if you can't question it if logic is not taken seriously then I understand how helpless students may feel how they feel like it's pointless to say anything how it's just better to just blend in and I think that is the saddest thing to have happened in our education systems where you not only don't feel safe where as you said is your second home where you're supposed to be concentrating on learning where you can turn on your friends where your prefects or people whom you think you should look up to become agents of harassment and when you fear your warden so much that you can't even tell them that this just does not make sense that is just really sad for me and it really pains me to say it and it um and I think even now for example even if period sport checks is illegal a harassment can come in many forms and if there isn't an avenue for girls to speak up and to make complaints on certain teachers I think then the system is far from fixed and I think we're definitely not there yet um so unfortunate or I I have not experienced this myself but when I hear about this yeah it is terrible back to Ainut Nisa's case again how did this case impact Malaysia in terms of courage amongst survivors this feeling that women are secondary is something that exists in every part of not just our education system it's in our working force it's in our ministry it's in the government sentiments so it's kind of hard to feel empowered and I think that's why Ainut Nisa's case feels so different or feels so empowering because wow and I honestly feel like Ainut Nisa is um an amazing example of an accidental activist where something bad happened to you you decided to tell a friend or in this case you decided to post a take talk about it and then um without realizing it so many people feel the same even the people coming out going behind Ainut Nisa taking part in activism and more importantly telling their story I think that's the great impact that this movement has created um can we do more definitely are we doing enough nowhere near enough but I think if we keep moving if we keep having conversations like this agey I think we are going to get to the place where maybe we'll do justice to our girls survival backlash hmm incidents where survivors of any harassment or rape cases where they face negative backlash as they try to go public with their most intimate trauma and stories you might think that it's weird to see the public so divided on this matter but I am personally not surprised thinking about it because obviously we are talking about one of the most taboo unspoken topics in our conservative rooted in tradition Asian society survival backlash sadly just portrays the the reality of the ignorance of people around us the ignorance of our dear right yet about this issue as a whole even the reported cases that we have it is severely under reported because the system doesn't make it easy for victims or survivors to come out and tell their story for example if you made a report a lot of officers don't take it seriously even if you were a domestic violence victim if you go to the officers they'll likely say this is a masala rumatanga let alone harassment where you can't it's a he said she said situation where you don't have bruises on your body and then you have to go through the court process and it's difficult you know it's really difficult because you need to tell your story over and over again you need to make sure that after you make a report people actually believe you that investigations take place that you are you will be protected against the person you are making a report against it's very traumatizing so when you don't decide to go through the legal process when you don't decide to make a police report and instead find closure in your friends your family or tell the public about this harass so that other women don't actually are protected from this person then you get survivor backlash then people tell you oh why didn't you report even though the system is already against them so it's and then these people and when they do tell their stories they get slapped with defamation suits and that fear so you you have and other than okay so there are several ways that you can tell your story you can seek justice by going through the legal process of making a police report if it's a crime that's another thing if it's a crime huh because the sexual harassment bill was just table so stalking is still not a crime and it's just really said that we're at that point where the system has failed us and what people don't see is that there's actually a third option that is not really exercised is when there are systems in place in education institutions or companies where you can make a complaint so it'll be like a civil suit or like a civil proceeding so for example uh in a a lot of MNCs or public companies have a way of making a complaint so if you've been harassed by a colleague you can make a anonymous complaint an investigation is done and then after that that person who did the harassment can either be suspended aka punished or things like that so there is some kind of complaint process but that process is non-existent in education system and it's definitely non-existent in many other companies but that is that third option and I think that third option can be done if in schools and in fact especially in places like private universities or private schools because there's actually political will in these institutions so I think that's an option that we can actually explore but we're not exploring and therefore it's it's because it's not hard it isn't it isn't hard to have a complaint system in place as we are halfway throughout the episode I can imagine some guys some male some of our fellow boys being very defensive about what we are conversing as now it always is that we speak about cases like this on social media which is very odd to me we are talking about the pain of fellow survivors but oddly in similar stories like this some men just find it necessary to prove or justify that this is only the work of some man and that cases like this do not represent the whole male sex like am I the only one confused on why you need to justify that in a place where fellow women and know your female friends are talking about their most inner pain anyway we do sadly have male survivors so does that make sexual harassment or rape not a gender issue firstly I really do think it's a gender issue because first of all I do understand that there are male victims and survivors out there but I do believe that girls are disproportionately affected by harassment and abuse cases in schools in other schools simply because women are seen to be better praised or more likely to accept the abuse because of sentiments like that that if somebody in power is above me and is asking me to do something that feels uncomfortable I have to say yes if my husband wants to have sex with me I can't say no because it's not deemed as rape if somebody stalks me on the street I can't do anything because it's not considered a crime if my boss is something inappropriate in the workforce it's very hard for me to say something about it because he has power over me so yes I do believe there are male victims but if you look at the cases women are disproportionately affected simply because people think that either they want it as in like girls are asking for it because of the way they dress because no actually means yes but also because they have little regard for women in the law for example a lot of our girls or girls in general are still seen as property you know and like for example when we have marriage the the age of consent for guys are 18 but you can go as low as 16 for girls yeah so you have this kind of laws that still exist that shows that or shows how women should be treated or viewed but second of all I also think that it's a gender issue because if you look at the survey done by Awam as in conjunction with Save the Schools done by if you look at the cases that were done on men they are a lot more violent and there are a lot more humiliating which is a really sad case and the reason why this is so is because I honestly think it's because of toxic masculinity this idea that men should act a certain way okay so the idea that women should act a certain way also means the opposite is true for men that men should act a certain way they should be tough they should be aggressive so if men don't conform to these ideals they get bullied we have had so many bullying cases that involve either those individuals who they think are trans or who exhibited soft quote unquote characteristics you know we had that I forgot his name that sadly that high school student who was basically beaten to death and then a lot of it is not just because the victim does not conform to the standard of what is male enough but also because the perpetrators feel like they need to be tough you know they need to be they need to exert authority they need to have control over someone that comes in the form of that are those are examples of toxic masculinity and those those sentiments exist because we gender traits women are supposed to be soft-spoken are supposed to be caregivers are supposed to be pretty but not too forward yeah like all of those things so men are expected to be the same way and sometimes when people fall short they get they become victims of abuse or because they want to exhibit masculine traits they become the abuses themselves so I do think it's a gender issue I do think obviously that anybody can be a victim of abuse but I do think that women are disproportionately abused and the same reason why women are disproportionately abused is the same reason why male victims also exist probably one of the most controversial questions in this episode are harassment and rape the fault of survivors who are commonly girls/women whose fault is it actually or because she walked out late at night because she wore sexy things because to their minds if I don't do those things then I will yeah I'll be safe and therefore they have to rationalize this but in the process of rationalizing this they take away or they put the blame on the victims rather than the perpetrators actually if you think about it even the way we report things it's like women get raped after going back home late why is that the case why is it reported that way when it should be man rapes women that's it why does it have to be why when you say things like women got raped women got harassed then you put it you put a duty on the woman or the victim to be responsible for their safety when the perpetrators are the ones at fault we should tell our boys not to rape we should tell our men not to harass not tell our girls to wear better clothes quote unquote or to not go out late at night because it can happen to anyone I'm telling you it can happen to you even if you're fully clothed it's the light of day there's so many instances where it's happened victims are random and it happens because there are bad people out there and not because the victims are bad and they were asking for it I have to stress this enough it isn't the victim's fault and when we created a for sick to speak when we created a program in order to empower girls and we did focus groups with a lot of NGOs when we asked them why do people not care about women's rights when they're in schools like why did it have to be like something happening something viral happened in order for us to get out of this funk of consciousness that this is actually wrong is because people think that bad things won't happen to them people think that they will be protected from discrimination or gender bias and only later in the workforce do they realize that this is this is an issue and unfortunate enough that a lot of girls actually already face gender discrimination harassment abuse in schools but a lot of other girls face it in university so we have to universities they face it in work life so we have to understand that it can happen to anyone if it doesn't happen to us it can happen to our daughter it can happen to our mom it can happen to our friends and the more we realize that this is a problem even if it doesn't affect us the more we can mobilize for change let's dive on about rape jokes free training one was a very odd year as we had witnessed another viral case involving a local public figure some of you sure know what i'm talking about and who i'm talking about but let's recap it for the benefit of those who haven't in a local television show we had an actor who had responded to an interviewer's question exposing details of a deleted rape scene featuring a fellow actress who is now the mother of two kids the actor along with the host of the show could be seen laughing on the clip as they made very inappropriate remarks when they discussed the rape scene which is really frustrating i'm sorry it is really frustrating and what makes me so frustrated is how many people still find this kind of locker room conversations funny like where is the humor in conversations like this because i personally have witnessed and listened into these jokes when i've played male dominated computer games a few years back and i don't understand why us conversations like this why are rape jokes funny to boys and men to any boys or men listening into this episode can you tell me why is the human it because i don't really understand what i'm missing on when you joke about a victim's trauma or you joke about rape you even joke about how the victims at fault i think that is a rape joke and i think it shouldn't it definitely should not be done there's nothing funny about it and i just i'm just shocked that when i watched the clip about this actor explaining it that they all found it funny somehow um yeah and i think it's like they didn't get it the the rape scene was cut because the parents thought it was inappropriate it was uncomfortable to do and yet none of this like indicated to his mind that this is something that we should joke about you know what i mean like it's so obvious there were so many signs already so yeah um that is and okay so long story short what is an example of a rape joke is anything that trivializes rape or the crime anything that trivializes a victim or survivor's trauma anything that makes light out of the issue anything that even makes a joke out of blaming the victim or that the victim was at fault for doing it i think that is a rape joke and is inappropriate and it should not be done said or repeated what can we do in a rape joke i saw shares of simple pointers that we can do if you're able to master up the courage in situation sectors like one just don't laugh because if you don't laugh you don't react to it then it doesn't egg them on like what happened with the actor in the talk show in fact if you could go further just say it's not funny and it's not a laughing matter so that's first don't give them what they want which is amusement the second thing that i think would be useful is to just ask them why like why did you make that joke uh like and but i think i think when i say ask why don't say like like you're attacking or that you want to make a point but just genuinely ask because i honestly think it's important to find out or get curious like hey why did you make that joke uh like you don't have to say it like you are like a person in a court case and say like why do you think that's funny so just say hey um what do you think of that joke are you honestly think it's funny um and then if they get defensive just say no you're genuinely interested to know and most of the time this stops them in their tracks or if they actually feel like sharing you actually get their point of view and once you get their point of view oh i thought it's funny because um of the way she reacted let's say then you say why do you think her reaction is funny and then when you rationalize why they would say that and tell them that is actually wrong or me because most of the time a lot of these sentiments are a product of society something like like you said misogyny is deeply entrenched in not just like greek mythology in our culture in our religion and the way that we look so we are just a product of what was brought up or fed to us by the media by our parents by our friends by our leaders right so when you ask them why do you think it's funny a lot of the time these people will think it's funny because of something else that was fed to them and they may not even necessarily feel that way so once you find out why they think it's funny you understand that it's not just them but rather the kind of information that was fed to them you can rationalize or tell them that that's not the case the reason why you think it's funny is because you think that women are lesser or that women should act a certain way so when they don't and they get punished it's hilarious because they get what they deserve so tell them that this is why you think it's funny and then the third step is you educate them actually when you say things like that is really terrible you know because for example you have a daughter right it makes her feel like it's okay to be treated like this imagine talking about this or joking about this when your mom or your sister has been victimized what do you think would be the effect you trivialize the issue you make it harder for victims to come out so honestly tell them about the harms of this joke because it isn't just a joke if you say this joke enough time it becomes a culture and I think it's already a culture that's why people think it's funny people think there's nothing wrong within and the last thing that you need to do is you need to take action so let's say it's step two which is asking why or educating them did not go well because maybe you became it became a heated debate or the person didn't want to tell you the reasons then what you can do instead is either not to tell them to say it anymore or say man that's not funny can you not say that in front of me I feel very uncomfortable so the action would be if you can't tell them not to do it anymore tell them not to do it in front of you so then they know that this is something that makes people like you uncomfortable or in general can make people uncomfortable and I think I think honestly girls should get used to telling people not to do things because it makes them uncomfortable we are constantly told to we are honestly we are built to be to be people pleaser to make sure everyone is okay provided for to try and like you say blend in to not take up so much space but I think this time you really need to to protect your mental health to establish boundaries you need to tell people don't make that joke anymore especially in front of me if you if you can't direct that person to not make that joke so I think those are four very simple steps that you can do don't give them what they want ask why would they make the joke why do they think it's funny educate them on the harms of the joke and lastly take action and if you do just any one of these steps it's really good enough honestly please don't beat yourself up if you didn't manage to tell them off or didn't manage to educate them just not laughing is already goes a long way in making sure that that joke is never repeated we are towards the end of another heavy episode and we have discussed about the sad reality of our rape culture and harassment cases in schools and also in the local Malaysian scene unfortunately as pathetic as it sounds I believe that our government and society had failed us the younger generations in so many ways but the emergence of any sort of effort to spread awareness show some slack hope to me to seek some sort of justice and safety for fellow girls and women as we bid farewell to Aisa on this episode let's hear what she has to say on the latest program through the seek to speak platform called Kita Untuk Semua after do is we're doing a bottoms up approach we are equipping our girls with the necessary tools in order to protect themselves stand out for themselves but also stand out for others so the program is very simple it is a capacity building program that ends with a campaigning process so what we are looking for is actually female students between the ages of 13 to 23 to join our program where they will be exposed to four capacity building workshops surrounding equal equality and dignity basically a know your rights workshop secondly a mental resilience workshop so everything that we've been talking about about victim blaming survivor backlash it gives girls the tools in order to be mentally resilient in difficult situations thirdly confident communication it allows them or give them the vocabulary as well as the confidence to speak up and establish those boundaries to tell their friends when they're uncomfortable to report to positions of authority about what's happening and lastly the last workshop is community advocacy so that it doesn't just stop at them meaning that we don't want it to be the case that girls should only protect themselves when something bad happens to them they should protect themselves when they see a gap in the system when they see that there are a lot of harassment cases in their schools to actually do something about it to campaign in their schools to have an impartial investigative system or reporting sorry complaint system uh the second thing that they should do is to be able to campaign and stand up for the girls that have been harassed or who will be harassed if nothing is done so that is the last workshop that we will be teaching our participants and then after these four workshops that are happening in august we will give our participants participants three weeks to do a campaign and campaign can be anything it can be it'll be it can be about sharing what they've learned during the program it's about spreading awareness and when i say it can be anything it can come in any form it could be writing an article to the newspaper it can be setting up an instagram account having a podcast like the sambal pod it can be about holding a class with your friends to teach them about what you've learned so anything basically and the reason for this is because we want to teach our girls that activism can come in any form and it can be an easy as as easy as writing on a blog post or as grand as holding a class with your peers and telling them about their rights and we're hoping that they keep passing it on so whoever reads that article whoever attends that class whoever listens to their podcast will keep passing on the message and how we incentivize our participants to do well in the campaign process is we're actually giving 2000 ringgit to five campaigns that we think had the most impact and had the most reach meaning was very innovative and affected maybe a lot more people than we thought they would so this top five campaigns will get 2000 ringgit and whoever applies for this program it is absolutely free there's nothing that you need to pay in order to be exposed to these workshops yeah and we're also trying to assign a buddy for each group of girls because when we conducted our focus group in order to tailor this program we found that a lot of students actually want a safe space to talk about these issues and I know a workshop may seem too formal so after every workshop there'll be a discussion with their buddies in order for them to actually talk about what was learned and we will also want to do an event called taboo talks where participants can participate and talk about things that happen to them talk about things that they discuss and we're also hoping to have a panel talk during the program girls in activism where we invite young activists in order to share their activism journey to inspire participants during the campaign process so yes in a nutshell coming into sumo hopes to empower Malaysian students to be advocates for equality through campaigning as well as capacity building and registration is still open I'll pass you the link ag you can sign up in the show notes we will be extending the application deadline so 15 July please apply by 15 July I'm hoping this episode gets out before then so so please do I look forward to having more conversations with our participants on this and I look forward to seeing more of you converse about issues like this yeah I'm sure this has been a very hard episode for some of us to listen in and to our fellow listeners I thank you for lending your years as difficult as it is please do not hesitate to seek some help if you are a fellow survivor and do join programs like Kita Untuk Semua which is free and only takes up two hours of your weekend the last day of registering is on 15 August sorry 15 July actually 15 July and you may access the links on our podcast description on any platform you are listening this to to my fellow girls and women this is this has been a very emotional episode I'm sure to many of us and all I can say is we are stronger than what society defines us so let's continue doing our part to make Mother Earth safer for all of us thank you so much for listening this is #SumberPodcast by The SumberPod and I'll see you in the next episode, goodbye!