Sam Once Feared Her Stutter. Now She’s a Talk Therapist Helping Others Unmask.

Me ollaan aivan varmasti eksytykertu. Kato Hannu? Tuollon ootomekki. Hannu ja kertoo. Tulkataan esieme! Mistoiset jätään meidän nimet? Tulkaa siemäher! Kuia kannu ja pertu! Ei kiitos. Meillä on oman evää. Uutta valjojukurtti luonnonmakeaa, jonka makeusan hedemien sokereista. Ei! Tillaan mukava valjojukurtti luonnonmakeaa, jonka makeusan hedemien sokereista! Niin, me syödään tätä. Arjen klassenko. Valjojukurtti. [Musiikkia] Ei, mei, Chupkov. Ei, mei, mei, meneen jälkeen. Katsomat, käy, meneen jälkeen. A show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. One conversation at a time. Welcome back to Proud Stutter. I'm your host, Maya Chupkov. Today we have a very special human who I recently met at a friend's conference here in the Bay Area. We have Sam, who's a talk therapist based in the Bay Area. She's also a person who stutter. Sam, welcome to the podcast. Hi. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm so excited to speak with you because I feel like the moment you picked me up to drive me to the friend's conference, I just loved your energy and it was really fascinating talking to you about your job being a talk therapist and how that can find its way, your perspective as a person who stutters into your practice. I always like to start from the beginning and talking about what was it like for you growing up. Did you always have a stutter like how was it for you in early childhood? So, okay, early childhood. I actually don't remember stuttering until I was about seven. And that, even then, it wasn't a really clear experience for me. I remember having to give speeches in school. Oh my god, what a nightmare. Giving speeches in front of the classes like an eight-year-old. But I didn't quite know what was going on. Like, what I mean, it was scary for everybody, but it was unsettling in a different way, I think, for me, because I just didn't know why I couldn't say certain things. But I knew that it was not received well. It was met with confusion and different looks and just different things that the feedback was not positive. So I quickly learned to really mask and hide it. And I would say that around 12, 13, 14 came close to recognizing that I had a stutter. I often say that I stutter. I don't even call it a stutter because it feels like an ongoing experience, not something that I possess. But yeah, that it was very confused for using and it was not until I went to an intensive treatment program for stuttering that I actually came to realize what it was. And I was 15 when I went. And after you came back from that intensive, what was that like? Did you feel like it helped? Did it change your relationship with your stutter? You know, that's a really good question because I think that a lot of the things that were taught in that program have stayed with me in a positive way. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking what to convey here. I was 15, I was so young and at the time my group was mostly teenagers, which was sort of an anomaly at the time. They only really did adult groups, I think. This was the first one that was mostly young people. And it helped and it was also like it couldn't help but not convey the message that fluency was better. There was just no way around it at the time. It was 2000, one. There was just, we didn't, I don't know, maybe I'm making excuses, but like everything was still so normative driven back then that message really still permeated things. So even though there was a lot of acceptance woven in to everything, it was still like the main message was fluency and that was really hard to recover from really to like unlearn my later 20s and so forth. So you're a talk therapist. I'm wondering like what made you want to get into that field? Were you ever considering like speech, like speech being a speech language pathologist? Like what was kind of that? Yeah, that that pull for you like. Yeah. Great question. And I'm glad that you differentiated, talked therapist, psychotherapist from speech language pathologist because definitely different in that I felt like if I had become a speech therapist, I would have had sort of this like maybe a cloak or some sort of like thing to lean on. Like well, this is what I do and I stutter and I treat stuttering like I and not to say that it's any easier, but I thought about it and I thought I think I'm just wanting to do that because it would be easier. And for me, I didn't I didn't want to do something just because it would be easier. So what let your question was what led me to want to do the work of psychotherapy? Well, I think because of the spaces I was in, I was being in recovery. I am in a lot of spaces where people talk about their problems and not many of them stutter. I mean, maybe one or two here or there, but that's not the majority. So I came to realize that people are struggling with a lot of different things and most of it stems from this inability to really be who we are. And this learned masking that takes place and I thought, wow, like that's so similar to the experience of stuttering. Maybe there's more, maybe I'm not alone in this, maybe there's more to it. Like I just became so interested in exploring that with people beyond my own experience, but with this thing that we could really, that we really shared in common, this desire for authenticity. And what's it like for you being a talk therapist? Do you find that having a stutter is really helped you connect more with your clients? Stuttering has been my greatest teacher in my life. It has helped me connect with people in general and it has helped, it has forced me to embody who I am, whoever that is. It's evolving and changing every day, but embody who I am and share that with people. So in that regard, yes, I am not one of those therapist's where I'm like, to completely different people in my work and in my social life or personal life. I'm me. and people get to experience that I think because partly because of of stuttering. It's not something that I hide much of the time. I think for any covert stutterer that there is always the temptation to do that or to mitigate it, but for me, I don't really lean on that anymore because it was a prison that I don't ever want to go back to this fear of stuttering. Oh yeah, that really, yeah, that made me have goosebumps a little bit because yeah, I remember that feeling of fear ahead of every time. I stutter and I just feel like I am having that less and less ever since I started talking about it more. So, but yeah, I wish I was as open about other things in my life that stutterer. I could feel like stuttering was for so long such a deep-seated thing that I just constantly avoided and now I feel like it's totally shifted and now it's like something that is just there is kind of a more neutral thing for for for for for me. Although there are some moments when I hear about other people's stories and I kind of go back to that like feeling of like wow, like I that deep connection to like what they're saying. But yeah, I kind of wish I was more open about some of the other things and maybe stuttering that thing I went through with stuttering can help me in other parts of my life too. Yeah, I agree that it can really be a portal for I said authenticity already but I don't know if there's a better word for it. Your day to day, like what does your day to day look like? I know like for people who stutter and I talk like I talk to a lot of people who stutter and when they have jobs where they're like talking a lot, it can really make them tired at the end of the day just because sometimes for people getting through a lot of conversations can be like taxing on your body. So I'm just I'm wondering like how if like what that experience is for you having a job where you're like talking a lot. Yeah, yeah, well I where do I begin? So I firmly believe that we are all in recovery from something everybody and not everybody has community for that. But I to answer your question and it is and it is available to everybody and when I say recovery from something I mean even if it's shame over some part of our ourselves family trauma, whatever it is, some innate difference in us that makes us feel unaccepted, that's what I mean. And so for me stuttering took a huge toll on my nervous system for a very long time. I think that's a shared experience for people who stutter like physically it takes a toll even if I even when I didn't realize it, it did the fight the fight the fight or flight response is was pretty constant. And part of my recovery journey I would say is has been getting to a place of regulation where I feel either calm or I feel like calm is accessible all of the time even when I'm even when I'm activated I never feel out of control and that has been a gift of just the last 10 years of my my communities, my practices, I meditate, I run a lot, I'm a long distance runner, I have a spiritual life different from organized religion but if you're part of organized religion great also just wanted to make that delineation just to have this like understanding that I'm not I don't have to be in control of everything like some things have been taken care of by the flow of the the universe and so that's what what I mean personally as having a spiritual life and starting my day with journaling and meditating or if I don't feel like that's accessible because my thoughts are too scattered just sitting on the couch and taking a few deep deep breaths not just running out the door and starting my day that for me has really been a huge part of developing like a way of living that adds to this calm that has not been taught to me it it wasn't taught to me. I love that that I I feel like I need to do more of of that in my mornings because usually I'm just like I wake up and I start working and it's like not healthy although I do have a personal trainer now that like has changed my life like I feel so like physically strong and that's contributed to being mentally strong so I feel like the physical activity has really helped and I feel like there's just a few more improvements I have to make and I think starting off my day in such a way is is probably something I should I should tackle next so yeah I mean I'm glad we're we're talking about this because sometimes I'll talk about stuttering and like not even get close to talking about this and it really it it's all related like we as humans we need sunlight we need water we need movement and it's not it's it's not about fluency it's about a sense of calm in the body and a sense of like nervous system regulation and for me that had it eluded me for so long that to have that now is like actually can can I share an example or like a quick story yeah so you said day to day so literally this morning I went to get a coffee and had a feeling I had a feeling and the feeling was probably based in the fact that I knew I was going to try to avoid stuttering on this word I was or ordering a mocha and it's one of those words that like may never come out is how it feels it always does but sometimes it feels like it may never come out so instead of usually I'll go right into it but this time I didn't and I just sort of paused and sort of gathered up some momentum to say it and it came out and the person behind the counter said something to the effect of oh wow you were so you were so thoughtful there for for a moment like commenting on my pause and just like reflexively I said oh actually I stutter and that word is really hard for me to say so that's what was happening and he said oh and that was it and it made the rest of the interterraction a little bit easier but I feel really grateful that that is accessible to me now in fact I wish what I had done and I've done this before but I wish what I had done was to say before I even said it like hey I stutter it's going to take me a minute to say this word and then yeah however it comes out but like that's what's available to me now and that's what I want everyone who's who's thatters or even doesn't stutter but like has other things like this that that they feel like they can sort of recruit their fellow key humans to help them when they need it because that's what we get to learn when we talk to talk about these things and become vulnerable. It's such a simple, like it's simple but also like very hard and it's like you kind of have to learn those tools and I like how you framed it as like that's what was accessible to me because yeah I think a lot of a lot of these a lot of these tools are something that we we have to learn it's not like intuitive and and I feel like a lot of people may not know that that's something you can do you know right yeah just like people who don't stutter might not know that they can ask for help for anything and if one can't help ask ask someone else because someone will say yes how can I help but it takes practice we're definitely not taught this. No so you mentioned unmasking and so yeah I'd love if you can talk about the process you have of unmasking and yeah how that shows up like in your life and in your work. Yeah I think being a covert stutterer which for anyone who might not know is when people who stutter do different tricks and strategy strategies to hide the fact that they stutter and it can look all different ways can look like words what was switching it can look like silence it can look like acting like I'm thinking it can look all different ways so having been an expert at that and then over the years sort of letting that shed letting that go some some or organically and some through speech therapy tools like voluntary stuttering or prolongations things that were just like really ingrained into my mind when I was really young they they do help mitigate the severity of blocks for me so letting go covert stuttering has looked like stuttering more and in that process I'm unmasking I'm taking off this mask of I don't stutter the mask is I don't stutter the the mask is you can't really see me because if you see me you might think that I'm not smart can't read don't know what I want to say aren't sure of myself have low self-esteem which the irony of stuttering is that the sometimes the things that we fear come true as a result of hiding so we don't want to be perceived as anxious or having low self-esteem and then we end up anxious with low self-esteem so this process of unmasking also takes a lot of support and a lot of self-care and support from others when that self-care care is not yet accessible to us but both in practice both physical practices and and therapeutic practices of just giving ourselves that reinforcement of worthiness and love I mean I could talk about this forever all the ways that we do that but my point is we need to find ways to reiterate that we are loveable because we're becoming very vulnerable in this in this process we talked a little bit earlier about you having a birthday coming up yeah and how you're really you know and how that's birthday really ties into really being you know your authentic self so can you to talk about this this milestone and what it's taking you to get to the point where you're like you know what I don't care yeah definitely so I'm a Lee Bradham turning 40 in October and I figure it says good a milestone as any to really officially stop giving a fuck you might have to beat that out but it's okay yeah definitely have spent way too long organizing who I am around what other people think of me and I think I mean I think a lot of us do that and I don't want to do that anymore and there's a lot of mixed there's a lot of mixed messaging around this and this is not to say that you know I'm starting this now when I turn 40 I just it dawned on me that I'm I'm finally like fully embodying this or close to close to fully because I am human but close to fully embodying this way of being that was just not available to me for a long time and I guess it's sort of an age where for whatever reason it feels to me a little like now or never it's never too late but I'm also like now now is now is good like I've had enough time to consider basically what other people think of me I mean I keep coming back to that but I think it's such a permeating theme in our society for so many people like if I if I focus too much on myself I'll be seen as selfish or if I if I don't care what anyone thinks of me then I'll look a certain away which is like the same toxic cycle of caring what others think of me and it's it's not in like a it's not in like a negative way it's in like an empowering way that I've been feeling this and it's uncomfortable sometimes because like I said before we're really not taught this stuff we're really not taught this stuff so it's been an adventure and I'm still on it and what can you give an example of like what that looks like like I know you talked about it a little bit but I'm just I'm I'm curious because for me I like I'm I am like I'm I feel like I'm so hyper aware of like people's perceptions and like energy and stuff and I think it's just because since I was little my parents have like always put me in like you know workshops and things where you're talking about like your feelings and like they just like I just built up this hyper awareness since I was like really young and so I've just always been really aware of people's energy and body language and how people are feeling are you sure that's not because you're person that's thatters because I know it could be yeah no I definitely feel like it's it's fueled that more but but like it also can be frustrating because I feel like I'm always like constantly aware of like yeah what like other people's reaction to me and like things like that and sometimes it gets in the way of me you know put it being my authentic self and I'm just like but it's like I can read the room you know like if I'm if there's like a sad room and I want to want to celebrate a big milestone. You know, things that's like, maybe not the best example, but yeah, I just feel like I'm constantly having to like assess the energy of wherever I'm at and just adapt. Mm. Yeah. Well, I can think of a few examples of a personal example would be like if I'm feeling socially drained. And I don't have the bandwidth to talk to someone or make plans with someone, or even in more real time, like literally like making small talk or having a conversation with someone. I don't feel bad about not engaging in that sort of thing and anymore. And there are polite, tactical ways to do this. Not that that even has to be the case. But what I mean is that we can honor our own needs, even if other people don't like it, or it disappoints other people in the way that I have come to accept and be in that feeling more because again, we're not taught to disappoint others. Like we're just not. We're taught to avoid it at all costs. So the way that I have gotten good at disappointing people, if I need to honor myself, is that time with myself in medititation or just in quiet time or running or going for walks? Like it's the same way that you would like get to know someone that you wanted to be in a closer relationship with whether a friend or even like a small child. Like however you would let them know that they're safe and show up in that way is the way that I've learned to regard myself. And then that translates in those moments, even if I do feel a little bit like, ooh, this is awkward, ooh, like I'm not supposed to do this, I can, like it doesn't last long, that that feeling is fleeting. - Man, that just, yeah, you just really made me think of, yeah, I had never really thought of, of it that way before, of like you kind of have to work on the relationship with yourself as much as with others. So yeah, that's, that's, that's amazing. - And it translates to the bigger things too, like it's not professional to stutter and those toxic memes that kick around in my head sometimes, especially as I started a business speaking for a living. I grappled with that, what will clients think? What they'll think is that stuttering makes me who I am. It's an asset. I want, I want to work with people who are drawn to me. It's not like they're working with me despite stuttering, they're working with me, but, but, but, but cause of stuttering. They may not know it, but they are, 'cause it makes me me. - Yeah, if, if, if everyone who stutters could, could approach like a job interview in that way, that like showing that your stutter actually makes you, you know, is an asset, like I feel like that would, that would be such a powerful, like, shift in like, 'cause I know like interviews are some of the most common, like stress points for people who stutter and I think reframing it in that way can be really powerful. - Yeah. - So that's what made me think of that. But, but yeah, I, I was wondering if you had anything else you wanted to share before we, before we ended the interview. - I actually do. I have one metaphor that just came to mind. And this makes sense because I'm big into the ocean and constantly coming up with like metaphors that have to do with the ocean. But I just thought of this and it's that, have you ever gone into really cold water in the ocean and just like done it really, really slowly and not had a good time? Because it's so cold and it just, it just hurts and feels bad and you're just like drawing it out. For me, openly stuttering is like diving into that cold water. It's still a shock, it's still like, oh my God, but it doesn't last long. And it's the mindset that it takes to decide I'm diving in now. It's not even the diving in. It's the, I'm going to dive in now and it's gonna be okay. Okay. And then we dive in and the experience becomes easier. The more you dive into the cold water, the more it becomes easier to do it because you know that it's gonna be okay. Okay. And that has, that's been what, what it's been like. The more I open myself up and can be vulnerable with people, I have a different experience of stuttering. I don't struggle as much when I speak. I still stutter, but it's not, it's not a struggle like it was. It's not scary. It's just me. I think that's, that's lovely and that's such a great way to end. So Sam, thank you so much. This was a wonderful conversation. It was so nice to have you on Proud Stutter. Thank you. And that's it for this episode of Proud Stutter. This episode of Proud Stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by Agosto Denise and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www.ProudStutter.com. And if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for the number to call in. More importantly, tell your friends to listen to. Until we meet again, thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.