Sam Harris on The Democrats’ Far-Left Problem

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Each week on the show, I'll invite guests for a delicious drink and a conversation at my kitchen table in New York City, and you're invited. Subscribe to Happy Hour With Aina on YouTube or your favorite podcast app for new episodes every Wednesday, starting September 16th. Episode 408, Freud, is here at Code Serving Silicon Valley in 2008, Iron Man premiered. Why did Iron Man not get along with Aquaman? He had rust issues. Thanks for being here, it's pretty good. Go, go, go! Welcome to the 408th episode of The Prof G Pod, we gotta stop counting, I'm starting to feel really old. What's happening in today's episode, we're sharing our live conversation with Sam Harris, neuroscientist, philosopher, host of the Making Sense Podcast and five time New York Times bestselling author. If you don't want to miss our next live stream or other content, exclusive to Substac, you can subscribe at profgmedia.com, that's profgmedia.com. Also before we get into it, we're recording a special live episode of The Prof G Pod at the Odo Experience Conference in San Francisco on September 3rd. If you'd like to join us, you can register on the conference website, we'll drop a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there, now, on what to show. With that, we hope you enjoy our conversation with Sam Harris. Welcome to our profg+ live stream. Today, we're joined by Sam Harris, neuroscientist, philosopher, host of the Making Sense Podcast and five time New York Times bestselling author. Someone I described as a mentor, despite the fact that a role model, despite this younger than me, Sam, welcome to the live stream. Yeah, well, thanks, Scott, great to see you. So, I have a whole script here, but I thought of you over the weekend when I saw, and I don't know, well, I'm hoping you saw it or saw a clip of it, Dana Bash's interview of R.F.K. Junior, did you see this? I know. I just heard rumors of it. Unfortunately, I have not watched it, feel free to fill me in. I can imagine, well, imagine, he basically at one point said, "Dana, you've got to stop listening to it. You put air quotes up the experts." And I thought of you and I thought, "Okay, the notion of expertise in disavowing and believing that the term "expert" is somehow means what you're saying is less truthful. And our inability to establish any sort of, to coagulate or establish consensus around something resembling science and expertise or that there is a truth, and I thought of you. Any thoughts? Well, no one can actually disavow expertise. I mean, we all know that knowledge is a thing. I mean, the difference between knowledge and ignorance is real, and it often matters. It's just that many people in alternative media and mega culture and in various pockets of weirdness in our honor information landscape have found other experts, and they're people for whom Alex Jones is an expert, right? So it's not, it's not compatible with sanity to disavow any difference between knowing what's real and not, right? So, you know, and you can see this, and if you watch Joe Rogan's podcast, I mean, he will follow this RFK line of disavowing the so-called experts a lot. I mean, certainly if you get him talking on COVID or foreign affairs or many, many topics, but if you put someone in front of him who doesn't know anything about mixed martial arts and pretends to, you've never seen a conversation unravel faster, right? I mean, because Joe is an expert on MMA, and he's not going to suffer the, you know, fools gladly, you know, in front of his own audience. And yet he just, he doesn't seem to recognize that he's suffering fool after fool in front of that same audience on other topics, and so an RFK junior is certainly one of those fools. Unfortunately, we have a politics now where, you know, all you have to be is a charismatic fraud and being incapable of feeling shame, no matter how many times you're proving wrong, and you know, our politics will, will promote you to the, somewhere near the top of the heap. Now, what is the underpinnings of this, this loss of trust in our institutions? Is it social media that rewards novelty, which is Latin for bullshit and conspiracy theory? It's just more interesting to think of, of what has created this level of distrust and erosion in our institutions? I think it's that, that a lot, I mean, obviously conspiracy theories and an appetite for them predates social media and even predates the internet, but I think there's no question that the internet generally and social media specifically has, has supercharged all of that. I mean, you, you can, you can find yourself in a algorithmically defined echo chamber, and your, your cherished ideas are never disconfirmed now, and you don't have to meet the, the weirdos who are producing the best evidence for these fake claims out in the real world anymore. I mean, it used to be that you'd have, you'd have to go to a conference, you know, on, on the topic of, you know, government suppressed secrets about UFOs and then meet all the weirdos, all the, you know, the Roswell cultists and Area 51 maniacs who, and, and you'd see one, one, one presumes, I never want to any of these conferences, but one presumes a, a certain number of people would bounce off the whole project merely by meeting the people who have devoted their lives to these cockamamey ideas, but on the internet, all I get, all that gets scrubbed, and the first time I noticed this was, you might remember this, but immediately after 9/11, or some, you know, sometime thereafter, there was a, a very cheap, you know, fake documentary called Loose Change, it was made by, I think, an 18-year-old in his, like the quintessential 18-year-old in his mother's basement, that just was like the first viral product of that moment that, that, you know, engineered the so-called 9/11 truth conspiracy economy, and it was just, you know, it was just a viral video, you know, with one of the first, and it took in millions of people, and we got to the point where I think it was true to say, I think this poll was run somewhere around 2011, that 16% of Americans thought that 9/11 had been an inside job, right? So this is, we're living in that world now, and it's just, it's just worse. Yeah, I think of, I think of a, I call it the jet lag effect, and that is, I travel a lot, and as to get older, jet lag is a thing, and it's because, and I'm done some work on it, that jet chance transportation, you know, traveling across the surface of the atmosphere point eight times mock is something we've only been doing really, the majority of us, or the minority of us, have only been doing for a few decades. It's actually a fairly new phenomena, and our brain just hasn't caught up to the notion that you wake up one morning, and the sun isn't a different part of the sky, and it messes our brains just haven't caught up to it. And Derek Thompson said something, and he has his own sub-stack now, he had this really interesting take, and he said, maybe we're not meant for all of us to broadcast, and that is our species hasn't caught up to how to process information, and ultimately some semblance of a truth or consensus, when all of a sudden everyone can broadcast anything. Have you given any thought to the notion of what it means when all of a sudden the media ecosystem, and in some ways there's some wonderful stuff, a lot of great stuff, bubbles to the top without the gatekeepers of MSNOW or Fox, I think there's some very positives. But do you think we're, what are your thoughts on maybe our species isn't quite ready, or hasn't processed or adapted to the notion that we're all broadcasting information now? Yeah, I think there's something to that. It's a little bit like what the close-up in cinema, the introduction of that first did to us. That was such a novel stimulus to be sitting in a room with a face that's 25 feet tall or whatever it is, and we are living with. A similar medium manipulation of our minds just in how we're consuming everything in short clips that are algorithmically boosting, you know, for the most part, telegenic people who are really, in many cases, are not qualified for anything other than gaming our attention and precisely that way. And we have political candidates who are thriving in that atmosphere and who many people still can't see the downside too. I mean, look at one of the cities you live in and it's been run by Mamdani, a DSA product. You were just on Bill Mars show on Friday and build that fantastic essay taken down the DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America. We should be really worried about this organization. And what's amazing is that they're making no effort to conceal how crazy their platform actually is. And yet we are electing people who represent that platform. Again, there's no, there's no SutterFuse here. I mean, Mamdani claims to be a DSA candidate. The real issue is that he's very telegenic. He's very good on camera. He's got a kind of permanent smile plaster to his face. But if you double click on anything he really cares about and believes or pretends to believe, it's just a raft of sinister bullshit. I mean, it's pure communism on the DSA side. They not only want to get rid of the presidency in the Senate and capitalism and debt. But private property itself, right? I mean, there's just no, there's no hedging at all in the DSA platform. And they have married themselves to Islamism worldwide. And it's become an explicitly anti-Semitic platform. And Mamdani and his, the other candidates, he's signal boosted are riding a top of all of this with these, you know, wink wink, knowing smiles, which are captivating to people. I mean, it's just people are, and especially the young who aren't, you know, for all their benefits of energy are not really taking much time to discriminate what any of these ideas actually mean and what their consequences would be. So it really is, it is a, you know, obviously, an analogous thing happened with Trump and Maga on the right. But we're seeing frauds and grifters and moral lunatics win because of the media environment we've created for them. Yeah, one of the reasons you're a role model for me is you, you just are sort of unafraid to like call a spade a spade or say, you know, no, there's no both siding here. And I find that around Mamdani, I find myself saying, well, you know, a lot of creativity and dynamism in the in the Democratic Party is coming from the DSA. They're very charismatic. They're bringing energy. I think a lot of this is the bed we've made, my generation, has convinced young people to capitalism is cronyism. And we haven't done a good job of explaining to them the capitalism when a redistributing can be the middle class and when it has a strong social safety net actually works better than any other system. So I feel like we've stuck our chin out. And but and I try to find like reasons to to acknowledge why so many people in New York. I mean, Mamdani, quite frankly, is popular amongst a lot of Jews in New York. Yeah, 30% I mean, 30% voter form. And then I just can't help but look at, okay, he makes a point. There have been, I think 10 or 11 people convicted by the International Criminal Court. And the only one that makes a point of arresting is the Jew. There are four Christians. There are three Muslims. And there's one Jew. And he's decided to say that's the guy I'm going to arrest. And then when, you know, white Christian nationalist commits an act of terror, he goes right to the ideology and that this is, you know, Islamophobia. And then when a Jewish person is stabbed by someone screaming Allah Akbar, it's, oh, it's mental illness. It's not, it's not the ideologies fault. It does feel. And then the litmus test around if I'm going to endorse you is, well, how I do think there's real legitimacy to the notion of being not anti-Semitic, maybe even feeling Israel has a right to exist, but being anti Netanyahu. I would put myself in that camp, but it always seems it breaches into, okay, the litmus test is how anti-Israel can you be before? Are you willing to call it a genocide, which means you failed vocabulary in your English? However you want to call it, this does feel like it's, it's spilling into just straight out anti-Semitism. Your thoughts? Oh, yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's, we're in the end zone of anti-Semitism. And there's no question on the left, also on the right. I mean, you, I'm happy to both sides this, but to both sides this, accurately, you have to invoke some fairly ghoulish characters on the right. But when you look at characters like a son-piker and I would say Mamdani, and certainly El Sayed, who's, you know, been, been signal boosted by both and may well become a senator, certainly seems likely at this point. On the right, you have to look at people like Nick Fuentes to, you know, or, or, you know, weirdos like, you know, now Tucker Carlson or Candace Owens and people who are, who are just, you know, lying as freely as they breathe and are explicitly demagogues and anti-Semites and committed to projects that we know are socially toxic. In some, I mean, in some sense, in some very perverse way, you know, horseshoe theory is real on this one topic of, of the Jews, right? I mean, this, you know, horseshoe theory, I think, can be exaggerated. I mean, this is claim that the far, if you go far enough left and far enough right, you start to meet people whose political convictions become more or less indistinguishable. On the Jews, that is certainly true, right? You know, the Jews run the world secretly in, you know, they're, they're wielding unearned power to the disadvantage of everyone we care about and all the wars, you know, we're created by them and you've got Tucker Carlson and, you know, even Joe Rogan promoting Holocaust revisionists who say that, you know, Winston Churchill was the bad guy in World War II and he was misled by Jewish financiers and the Holocaust didn't quite happen. All of that is getting mainstreamed now and if you go far enough left and far enough right, it's, it's, you're just meeting fabulous and conspiracists and weirdos. But the problem for Democrats, especially at this moment, you know, you and I can talk for three hours about what's wrong with MAGA and what's wrong with Trump and why we want to course correct in 2028. The problem with Democrats is they, they seem to be getting ready to commit suicide by not clearly drawing the line as our friend Bill Martin in that last essay on Friday night where you're pointing to maybe leave the anti-Semitism aside, leave the marriage to Islamist, you know, theocratic fanaticism aside. It's all too real and awful but this is a communist organization, right? It's preaching the downfall of basically everything that has produced wealth and social order in our society for, you know, centuries at this point and communism has failed everywhere. It's been tried and failed in the most ghastly possible way and these people are running as communists and they're not even hiding it and the, and the Democrats, mainstream Democrats, I mean, people who are, you know, the, the, the, the short list of people we could name to whom, who might be plausible in 2028 have not figured out how to sister soldier this moment. I guess with the, the exception of Rama manual, however plausible or implausible you find his candidacy. He's the one guy who said, all right, this is, this is clearly bullshit. Yeah, it's, I love the horseshoe. I think it's worth pointing out that whenever the far left and the far right meet on anything, you know, it's a really bad fucking idea. Anti-Semitism, anti-vaccination, socialism, isolationism, and they actually do come together on a variety of things. People forget that the anti-vaccination conspiracy theory was started in the far left. Don't put corporate, don't put corporate chemicals into your body. Yeah, there were, there were private schools on the west side of Los Angeles that had lower vaccination rates than than any country in Sub-Saharan Africa. I, I am sympathetic, however, to the argument that first up, I never underestimate the Democrats' ability to snatch a few from the jaws of victory. I was feeling so good about these elections and I thought, oh, shit. Then I saw Chevalier and Mike, she is about to become the poster child for Republicans. And when Mamdani, I don't know if you heard this, he released a list of 950,000 names or addresses that were subject to attacks. I want to be clear, that was public information. But when you put it out and imply these people have done something wrong and you already have their tax, you know, you already have their tax filings and you can just tax them, I'm in, I'm actually in favor of the pediatric tax. An absentee wealthy owner, in my view, should be subsidizing the, the, the, the property taxes of a nurse working in NYU Langone that has to to spend 40% of her income on rent. I was a-- I'm in favor of the tax. It's gonna cost me a lot of money. I get it. But to release addresses, it feels like in some implying you've done something wrong, good. Oh, I'm going to docs that they have done something wrong and I want everyone to know who they are. This feels like just straight up doxing to me. Do I have this wrong? - Oh no, it's dangerous. I mean, you're having CEOs assassinated a dawn on the streets of Manhattan, right? That's the context. It's just deeply unethical. But again, these people are fanatics and they're not hiding their fanaticism. I mean, I'm Donnie's smile is doing 90% of the work. He is a fanatic. He's an ideologue. The DSA platform is insane. Wealth is evil, right? The accumulation of wealth is evil. Private property is evil, right? So I forget about a Piotr attack. Private property is something they want abolished. It's just not, you know, you can get stone to not even understand how anyone could entertain these ideas in college. I mean, it's just this is absolute madness. And again, not concealed. Everyone should go to, you know, you should drop the DSA website into the show notes, right? So people can just read the platform for themselves. You know, this is analogous to, I mean, it's understandable that some people don't immediately see what's dangerous about doxing, or you and I are semi-public figures who occasionally receive death threats. And so either doxing is a real issue. And when Mom Donnie stands in front of Ken Griffin's building and points it out as the signature example of everything is wrong in our society at this moment, that a man could own a, I think, a $238 million apartment. Whatever you think about wealth and equality, that is dangerous. And, you know, the stuff that was happening is this goes back all the way to when, if you got the name of the group, but when people were, you probably remember this, there was a group that was hitting some prominent people in the face with pies, right? They would have a pie of whipped cream and they did it to Bill Gates, I think. And they did it to a few other people. And this gets a loss of laughs for people who are not thinking about it. But what that does is show how easy it is for anyone to kill someone in public, no matter how much security they have, right? So it's a mock assassination, right? It's like, I could touch you, watch this. And it is from the mayor of New York to be doing this, to the richest people in New York. I mean, that is, it's, forget about the morality of it. I mean, just if you just want to safeguard the economic future of the city, why would you do that? - Yeah, I think he's turned actually what I think is, is good tax policy into a wanted poster in what it's so self-defeating, because I'm a believer that you can't continue to have $7 trillion in expenditures on five trillion in receipts. In doing you to raise taxes or cut spending, the answer is yes. But when Mamdani has done, it's just made it more difficult to have more progressive tax policies locally and nationally because the Republicans will frame this as, see, they're not trying to be responsible. They see taxation as persecution. And he's just feeding into their talking points. And what I find generally speaking, and I see this a lot in England, is that people would rather tickle the censors of upper middle class educated voters and reduce the tax base such that they can, in fact, afford the policies that they advocate for. They had, okay, one of the distinguishing features that I think is a real positive between America and Europe. I think Europe has basically decided with some of their economic policies that we'd rather be worse off as a whole, but feel more equal. And the US as I was said, we're comfortable with a certain level of inequality as long as we're better off as a whole. Now having said that, I think that's no longer the truth. I think that truth, that compact has been broken that the massive income inequality is now beginning to come at the cost of the entire economy and the lower middle class households. But this feels oddly, I don't know, oddly like short term, like let's get a sugar high and then reduce the economic growth such that we can't afford to pay for snap and the things that we're advocates for. Do you worry though, I am sympathetic to the argument that progressives that we're spending too much time fighting each other and it's taking away our ammunition and our firepower from the corruption, the weirdness, the anti-science of the left, that as Democrats were very good, and you said this, I paraded this from you, that okay, you're my ally, we're in the trenches together, you're holding the gun run, so I'm gonna execute you a dawn. Do you worry that we're gonna spend so much time doing the Republican's work, being critical of one another that we're kind of playing into their hands? - Well, I worry that framing it that way will cause people to hesitate to disavow the lunatics on the far left. I mean, it should be, we should be able to make very short work of the DSA, right, just that there's no reason to talk to them. They should not be in the conversation, right? I mean, if we can't figure that out, it's just there's no way we're going to win in 2028 and we could be against JD Vance, it could be against Rubio, that would even be harder, it could be against Don Jr. And there's no way this country is going to elect communists, or communists adjacent people at the national level. And unfortunately, there are points of contact between the radicalism of the DSA and far more mainstream figures, or seemingly mainstream figures, people like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. I mean, they have both said that it's in so many words, it's impossible to become a billionaire ethically, right? All billionaires have, in some sense, committed a crime, right, they're guilty of fraud, they're guilty of treating people terribly, they try to run that analysis on Taylor Swift, right? I mean, how does that work? Yeah, so it's just not the wrong center of gravity for a truly ethical and accurate concern around wealth inequality. I mean, I think you and I are both as concerned about wealth inequality as almost anyone, but I think it's a real issue. I think it is the potentially society shattering issue once AI gets fully rolled out in all the ways that it seems destined to be. We have to get our arms around wealth inequality, but to demonize wealth, right, and wealth creation. And to not see that if you're adding enough value to people's lives at scale, it is possible in the current economy to get fabulously wealthy, right, in ways that are not unethical, right? You've just people are just telling you that they love what, they love your work and they're gonna give you another $5, and all of a sudden you're a billionaire, that person should not be burned as a witch, and if you go far enough left, and you don't have to go too far left, the people can't figure that out. I just, I can't help. I feel as if we've made our bed here, though, Sam, I feel as if the people of my generation have been practicing not capitalism but cronism, and young people see all of this prosperity, which was supposedly capitalism that they were supposed to participate in, and we privatize the gains on the way up, which socializes the losses on the way down to bailouts. We've spent an incremental $700 billion a year on seniors, an incremental $20 billion on children. Young families are struggling, and yet every day they get vomited on their phone, 110 reminders that they're numetically not shaping up or relatively speaking to the other people, and what do you know? Young people are conflating capitalism with cronism. It feels like we had this coming, in that I'm sympathetic to the fact that this notion of capitalism that people of our generation massively benefited from, they did not, and we have an outline to true vision, and the Democrats, too, the Democrats have been overrun. You know, taxes went down during Biden. The last 40 years on precedent and prosperity, but the average 30 or old is 24% less wealthy, the average 70 or older 70. I mean, I feel as if we've had this coming, and quite frankly, a lot of this is our own fault, because we're clinging to something that just didn't work for them. And now we're trying to dig our way out of a hole that we dug. I share your concern, but I feel like quite frankly, you know, the chickens have come home to roost. We liked capitalism as long as we-- - Let's be honest about where the biggest chickens are. I mean, now we just learned that you can pay, you know, you or anyone like you could pay $100,000 a month to Trump to get early access to his truth social posts to frontrun the market, right? I mean, if that isn't inside a trend date, I don't know what is, but apparently it's legal or it's legal enough for. Trump to put a cash register on it, at least for this week. I mean, so the level of corruption in Trumpistan is something we have never seen in American history. I mean, you and I can spend the rest of this hour just listing the things he's done to enrich himself by trading away the policies and institutions and reputation of our country on the world stage. I mean, just the terror policy that made everything and he's made, you know, he and his family have made now billions of dollars in the last 12 months doing that. It's, yes, yes, there's a both sides to this story too. I mean, you know, I think Nancy Pelosi is one of the great stock traders of all time. Right. So that's that by 600 percent versus Buffett at 300 percent or has to be a 200 percent. So the scale, but the scale matters, right? And we have a, we have to keep that in perspective. And we also have to recognize that we there's for all the people, for all the wealthy people being asked to pay more taxes, there's a understandable cynicism you meet first, which is what, what is the government going to do with the show, show me the success story where giving the government more money has really worked in the way that you're hoping. And if you look at some of the wealthy, I mean, if you look at California, and you look at the level of mismanagement here, it is easy to be cynical about the, the simply dumping more money into the machine of, of governance because the government, the governance has been so bad. We, so we need, you know, of course, you know, in our brains, that's not an argument against taxation. That's an argument for good governance, right? We need competent people and good policies, and we need to find bad incentives wherever they exist and root them out. And yeah, so if the teachers union is stifling our ability to ever fire a teacher, so as to improve the quality of the schools, well, then that's up in the has to be dealt with, right? And you need Democrats who are willing to go against the teachers union in that case. So we've got this, this system of incentives, and in particular on, on the democratic side, we have a, this co-alitional structure to all our politics that is, is a real albatross. I mean, it's just not, it makes it very hard to be honest about what's going to work and to cut dead weight. So we have to, you know, we have a lot to sort out, but we are up against the most corrupt and self-dealing bunch of people we have ever seen. And it's, you know, that's, that is worth demonizing and responding to. And we just can't, you know, but it's, it's simply crazy to be demonizing wealth itself, wealth itself, or financial success itself, and principle as somehow, and make that a kind of load-bearing plank of, of democratic policy. We'll be right back after a quick break. Support for the show comes from better help. You've heard me say before how useful talk therapy can be when working through a hard problem, and the better help has been a great option for a lot of people. But at the end of the day, the best way to know if better help is a good fit for you is to check it out yourself. More than six million people have used better help globally. The consistent feedback from real users makes it easy to see why many people continue to choose the platform. Better help reports on average live therapy sessions rating of 4.9 out of five based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. Better help therapists have at least three years and a thousand hours of hands-on experience. 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I want to talk a little bit about attention because I think if someone who focuses a lot on it, where we spend our attention and how it impacts our well-being and our sense of peace, and I take August off, and one of the things I try to do is I try to staff the social media, and I try to, I don't know, I call it almost like a 30-day, really bad version of meditation. When I'm terrible at meditation, I've never given it much thought, you're obviously a real thought leader around meditation and have a successful app helping people embrace it and use it, incorporate it in a healthy way in their lives. When I think of meditation, I think of okay, how do I be attentive to as little as possible as a means of almost like a disposal or a reset? I might be thinking about it incorrectly, but how do you think about attention, the importance of a rinse cycle, and what's happening now with our attention? I'm addicted to my phone, and I constantly want to pick it up and check my stocks or tweets or not tweets, threads or see the latest news or news alerts or who's texted me a story or whatever it is, talk a little bit about the attention economy, what you see as are the threats to our attention, and what meditation, where meditation and an attention reset kind of where the vent overlap is there. Well, so the first thing to acknowledge is that all we really have is our attention, that the quality of our life really is a story of what we're paying attention to and what we can notice, the quality of our attention and where it is aimed. I mean, that's even true more than of time. Most people think the time is the one non-renewable resource and that's true, you just can't get this hour back, but the quality of the hour is dictated by what you're paying attention to. You know what it's like to safeguard our time and then to somehow squander it, right? You set aside an hour to just have something, quote, "quality time" with your kids, but then you've fucked it up by being on your phone or saying something petty or something went off-kilter and it wasn't what you hoped it would be, and yet you still spent the time to have that mediocre experience. Action really is the whole story and you are paying attention to something every moment of the day, right? The moment you wake up, your attention is seized by something and you go from moment to moment throughout your life until you struggle to fall asleep again each night. And our attention is being, you know, this is an ancient problem, and so when you talk about meditation, you know, some of the best instruction in meditation came 2,500 years ago from the Buddha in India, 500 BC, and that was obviously a world in which there were We're no devices, you know, vying for our, you know, for-- competition with our natural ability to be distracted by the things we want and the things we don't want and the things we're afraid of and the things we regret. And so we're living in a much more highly weaponized environment where the smartphone in our pocket has canceled the very possibility of boredom, right? It used to be that you could get bored and you could become interested in that fact, right? You're sitting in a waiting room, you know, the doctor's taking an hour to see you and there's no magazines worth reading and you're just left with your thoughts and you might have noticed in that situation that your mind is not at rest, it's not at ease, you're just you're actually not comfortable in your own skin, you're looking, you're you're casting about trying to find something worth paying attention to and you're uncomfortable. Very few of us have that experience anymore because we can always relieve boredom by watching something or reading something or listening to something and, you know, in some ways, that's a good thing. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not really just I'm not advocating boredom in principle as a as a good experience, but what it what it used to allow many of us to discover is that there's something on the other side of boredom, right? And and boredom really is an illusion. It's a I mean boredom really is just lack of attention. I mean, when you go on a meditation retreat and do nothing but meditate, you're in silence and you're doing nothing but pay attention to your moment of moment experience, you're not reading, you're not writing, you're not watching anything obviously, you're not having conversations with people. You just are noticing sights and sounds and sensations moment by moment and then and the arising of each subsequent thought. When you just become the witness of your experience in that way, that is meditation and the moment you can actually do it, the moment you actually build a little bit of concentration in that direction, you discover that boredom is a total illusion. There's it was just boredom is just an inability to pay attention and if the breath can become, you know, just the feeling of breathing can can become absolutely captivating, which it can get you know, given sufficient concentration, then nothing in principle is boring, right? So but very few of us are ever moved to discover that now and especially with you know, short form video, you can just endlessly scroll your life away and get this dopaminergic relief from your your general incapacity to just be comfortable in the privacy of your own mind. And meditation really is the antidote to that, you know, and it's I mean, the place to see it really is like when you wake up in the middle of the night, you know, it's three in the morning and you're you're now waiting to go back to sleep. I mean, just just you know, who is it who wakes up there, right? How racked are you by by unpleasant life thoughts and and and how how do you deal with those thoughts? I mean, a thought of, you know, concern about whether you're a good enough spouse or parent or like just what sort of rabbit holes can you get into at three or four in the morning? And just how how fully have you made your own mind, your friend in those moments? Because I mean, it's really and or how how fully have you failed to do that? I mean, most people's minds are sufficiently out of control that it's really analogous to having some lunatic kick down the front door of your house and you know, every morning with the moment you wake up and just follow you from room to room, talking to you and you can never get away from this person, right? You're just thinking thinking thinking every moment of the day and telling yourself the same stories over and over again. And for some reason, you never get bored. I mean, you can perseverate on the same set of thoughts a hundred times. If you told your best friend those thoughts three times in a row, they would they would suggest you consult a neurologist because you know, you're repeating yourself, but you'll repeat yourself to yourself endlessly in the in the in the privacy of your mind. And people think this is normal, but it's I mean, it's all too normal in the sense that virtually everyone does it, but it's not normal in the sense of being good or compatible with real happiness. And so meditation is just the simplest way to think about it. It is the ability to notice and each moment what you're actually noticing without being distracted by thought. I mean, you're just actually making clear contact with your life, including thoughts. It's not a matter of getting rid of thoughts, but it's a matter of noticing thoughts once they've arisen in your mind. And that's that's a very rare situation. Well, for what happens for most people is a thought arises and it sneaks up on us and it just feels like what you are. You know, it's like if the voice in your head feels like yourself, whereas in reality, there's a tremendous amount of space around it. It's just a piece of language. It's just a bit of imagery. It's a little bit like a dream. It's like a waking day dream. And it's not it's not yourself, right? It's part of the contents of consciousness and you can keep dropping back and just noticing that. And that's where the real relief that is often promised in meditation is to be found. Something you said that was actually very soothing for me was you say, think about when you wake up from a nightmare. You're convinced that actually happened, right? That you showed up, you showed up naked, you're cost-accounting midterm and business school, which is something I have over and over and over. There's someone chasing you or someone you love as in trouble and you just can't seem to figure out a way to help them. And you wake up and you know it was a dream, but you're just still sweating. Your mind plays tricks on you. And that was very helpful for me to realize that when I'm really anxious, okay, maybe there's cause for me to be anxious, but also maybe there's, again, as you said, that person is just haunt to me. I'm running around and convincing him me of things that aren't as bad as they they're telling me they are. I want to outline a scenario and get your advice on how to be everyone. I think the word presence is overuse, like be more present. Yeah, I get it. I'd like to be more present. I'm walking with my son to dinner last night. And I'm super excited this summer taking a ton of time just to hand with my boys. And he's like, who are you talking to? And I've now become my father where I start making actions and vocalizing your thoughts. Yeah, I'm role-playing out loud. I'm in a conversation with someone who work usually. And I'm actually using hand motions and talking. And you know, which I think if I were a female in Salem, I probably would in and I had enemies. They would have said I was a witch, but my 15-year-old son goes, who are you talking to? What are you saying? And I get angry myself that I'm not in the moment. I don't have presence. And other than just saying be in the moment and be more present, are there hacks or practices that can help someone a dad in moments where he has the opportunity to like, and I treasure those moments. I look forward to just hanging out. I, you know, we went to this, you know, this place called Jing last night. My son is the greatest dinner date in the world. He's curious. He likes food. And I get so angry that any portion of that, I just start to go to a weird place or I'm not in the moment. Are there hacks or exercises to get better at presence? Yeah. Well, meditation, specifically mindfulness is that hack, right? And again, it's just it's noticing thought as thought. It's noticing that you're you're talking to yourself. You're talking to someone who isn't there, right? I mean, if you're the one thinking that thought and you're the one hearing the thought, why do you have to say it in the first place? I mean, it's a very strange structure to this where you're the eye is talking to the me. And it is psychotic, you know, in a way, I mean, to verbalize it, if you were verbalizing it all the time, you know, if the thoughts you were thinking were always coming out your mouth and you're having a conversation with someone who isn't there, you know, that's that's the litmus test for for being crazy, right? I mean, the difference between crazy people and sane people, at least, at least one, you know, one difference is we sane people at least most of the time know enough to keep our mouth shut, right? But we're still having the conversation and not knowing it. And it's the conversation is dictating how we feel. It's like you're a thought about your mother is not your mother. And yet you're you're you're acting in that moment as though you don't know the difference. And again, it is very much analogous to being asleep and dreaming without knowing that you're dreaming. Mary, we all know our minds have this capacity to go, you close your eyes, you fall asleep, by whatever method you found that works. And the next thing that happens or the next part of the movie of your next scene that dawns in your conscious life has nothing to do with you being in bed, right? You're you know, you're on a beach somewhere or you're having a fight in a parking lot or you're you know, your wife just broke up with you or and your brain is is is so unable to do the tiny bit of the tiniest bit of reality testing that would be required to notice this lack of, you know, psychological continuity, right? The impossible has just happened. You got you got into bed and you wound up in another country, right? The laws of physics have been suspended for your benefit. And you don't and so the most surprising things about dreams is that we're not is our lack of surprise when they arise again, again, there's an exception with lucid dreams where you actually know your dreaming and that's all of that's very interesting. But for the most part, most you know, most people's dreams are not lucid. Well thinking without knowing your thinking in the waking state, right? Having an argument with someone who isn't there, you know, it just rehearsing the argument you had yesterday with a colleague or, you know, an enemy or anticipating this thing that you're anxious about a week from now and but you're now getting anxious now because you're thinking about it without knowing that you're thinking about it. This very much, I mean, this is also neurologically true to say it has has a lot in common with dreaming in the sleeping state and not knowing that you're dreaming, right? There's a kind of, you know, phantasmagoria that comes over you, you're in this sort of visionary state and you're not and you're sort of decoupled from your immediate environment and you could be so decoupled that you might even, you know, as in the case you just described, start talking to someone who isn't there, even in the presence of somebody who is there, you're in this case your son, right? So yes, I mean, it's a very simple, it's not easy, but it's a very simple remedy for this, which is to pay closer attention and the training by which you would get better at paying closer attention is mindfulness training, right? And it's just very systematically noticing, I mean, people, you tend to start with the breath in a sitting meditation just because the breath is always there and it's very easy to notice. But very quickly, you open your awareness to everything, it doesn't exclude anything, even thoughts and you just systematically notice what's appearing in each moment and every time you get lost and thought you bring your attention back to what is sound sensations or even thoughts themselves. But the crucial thing to notice is that, you know, recrimination and, you know, hating yourself and disappointment and all of that's just more thinking. You know, you're, again, you're, you're, you're just launched back into a conversation with yourself. You know, so here's what that conversation sounds like, God, I just fucked it up again. I can't believe it. We were going to dinner and, you know, I took the time and, but like, who are you talking to? You're, you're, you're, you're, you're now, you're, you're, you can hear the emotional valence of those kinds of thoughts. You're, you know, now you're, you know, what's the path to self-hatred was to be thinking, self-hating thoughts, you know, castigate in yourself to yourself without noticing it. It's a, it's the waking dream of that conversation. Again, to break that spell, it just requires more precise attention and, and, and it is quite remarkable that the spell can be broken every bit as decisively as waking up from a dream. And then the dream logic no longer applies. I mean, if you're having a fight in a parking lot with some psychopath and then you wake up and you find yourself in bed, you know, there's no parking lot. There's no psychopath. The, there's nothing that, that transition is, is total, right? And no part of it entails you having to figure out how to, you know, punch the guy in the face better, right, or, you know, you know, you get better at jujitsu, you know, by the, by the dream logic, you know, you're, you know, all of that has evaporated and it's true to in waking life. I mean, you can be, I'm not saying that thought, there's never anything to worry about or never anything worth thinking about, but 99% of our worry is wasted, right? I mean, the initial signal of fear or anger or whatever the negatively valence emotion is grief, right? It's, that's information about your life or about your situation in the world. But in the next moment, those states of mind are almost never valuable, right? I mean, anger is almost never the state you want to be in to solve the problem that has made you angry. Right? So anger is, anger is useful for like five seconds. And then you want to be level headed and figure out what, what if anything is worth doing. And so it is with fear, you know, it's like you, you get some scary diagnosis. And now you're having this adventure of, you know, calling doctors and scheduling medical tests, how much fear do you have to feel to do all of those things over the course of the next 10 days, you know, for, you know, while waiting for results of an MRI, you got an MRI on Friday and for some reason we still live in a society where you can't get results until Monday because Saturday and Sunday are magic days where no one can do anything. You know, this will be one thing the robots hopefully will help, help us with. You have to wait 72 hours to find out what's, you know, in your brain or body, how anxious do you have to be over the course of those 72 hours? How many of those moments of adrenaline are wasted? All of them. Right? I mean, just like you, you just needed enough adrenaline to go get the scan in the first place. And then you, then you want to be as calm and, and honestly, it's filled with gratitude for the life you've already lived as you can be in the meantime. 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And I'm so excited to announce my new podcast, The Monday Music Club. I teamed up to make this podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network because ever since I was a kid, I loved hearing and reading stories about classic artists, recording sessions and music history. And I wanted to have a place to be able to take what I've learned and share some of those favorites with you. Every Monday, I'll be releasing a new episode and deep diving into a new story with experts and special guests, and it's going to be a blast. So if you're a music history geek like me or even just a casual music fan, jump in because I promise The Monday Music Club is going to be the podcast for you. We're back with more from Sam Harris. So just in our remaining nine minutes here, I want to go to a couple of the audience questions. So anonymous ass, Scott, you're a self-described AI, Optimus Sam seems more skeptical of the future. Sam, you've talked to both Optimus and Doomsayer, where do you land on AI? Well, I'm very worried that we're in precisely the circumstance that many of us forced on AI, and have been worrying about for more than a decade, wherein we can't, the incentives are such, we can't actually build it in a way that makes it likely we're going to not create a, some kind of Doomsday failure mode for ourselves. I mean, we're in an arms race condition, right? And an arms race, and it's an arms race in multiple directions. It's an arms race for all these companies against one another domestically. And it's an arms race among nations, right? So we're racing China, but obviously anthropic is racing open AI. And under those conditions, we can't take the care. I think we, we must take to be sure that we're not deploying something that is, that could get away from us, right? I mean, so this is, the issue, and this falls under the concern of the so-called alignment problem, right? Once we build super intelligent AI, you know, AI that is more, I mean, arguably in many ways we've already built it, I mean, the LLMs we have are superhuman in so many respects. Right. I mean, they they fail in certain ways that are that are not human and are subhuman. But for the most part, they're superhuman already. What they're not currently doing is improving themselves by themselves autonomously, you know, so-called recursive self improvement. Once we have AI that is building the next generation of AI, so as to be better and better and better and we have something like an intelligence explosion, then the question is, have we engineered that explosion in a way that can be durably aligned with our survival to say nothing of our best interests? And it's there's a real concern that that problem might not even be solvable, right? I mean, like, there are not many examples of something that Jeffrey Hinton, one of the patriarchs of this technology has been saying. It's not many examples of a less intelligent species living in proximity to a more intelligent species and managing to control it, right? And we are building something, we're building alien minds with which we will be in relationship, right? And if you're not envisioning that, if you think, oh, no, that's not really a relationship, we can just turn them off whenever we want. Well, then you're not really envisioning true general intelligence. And we're building things that are going to be more powerful than we are and we will have to be living with them. And it's, you know, it's a system. It's not, you know, it's not just, it would be very clear if we're just talking about humanoid robots. But it's more than that. It'll be integrated with everything. And yeah, if it's not aligned, it's not, I mean, the general heuristic here, which worries many of us is that there has to be more ways to build unaligned superhuman AI than aligned superhuman AI, right? In the space of all possible superintelligences, one would expect that more of them than not would be less than perfectly aligned with our well-being across an indefinite future, that we know how to build these machines in ways where they're, they're durably aligned with our interests, which is to say that, let's, let's say their reward function is that they, what they care about most is to better and better approximate what we want out of life, right? I mean, they're, they're perpetually uncertain as to how good life could be for us. And all they care about is making it better and better for us. And they're constantly open to dialogue about how to refine that project. As far as I know, no one knows how to do that. So just in the last couple of minutes here, I want to return to attention. So a late 20s Sam Harris, just have your PhD just starting out, trying to find, you know, navigate the world, you're placing it, find a way to be economically viable, find a mate, and think of attention as where you, a capital that you allocate. Now, think of the, the Gen X Sam who's got a, you know, a great partnership, great kids, some economic success relevance. How has your allocation of your attention capital shifted? Like, what do you more, what is the greatest difference in the way you allocate your attention capital now versus a young Sam Harris? Well, unfortunately, I'm not the greatest test case of this because I've, you know, in my 20s, I spent a lot of time focused on these, you know, deeper questions, however impractical I'm asked spent, you know, well over a year on silent meditation retreats in my 20s. And I mean, I got my training kind of early on there before I built any kind of business or became a public figure or, you know, wrote any of my books. And so my, you know, it's, it's, I'm not the typical case. But I mean, the, the difference for me that I think is generic is that, you know, the, the truth of impermanence needs to become more and more salient as you get older. I mean, it's not, it's, you know, it was salient for salient for me pretty early in life. But many of us, most, at least most of the time act like we have all the time in the world, right? It doesn't really matter how much time we waste. And there's just always another day on the calendar that we can, you try to make the most of and then squander a lot of it on our phones. I do think it's worth, you know, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and engaging, you know, a little more executive control over this whole project and ask yourself, kind of in the aggregate, how you really want to live, right? I mean, just what, what is, what, what matters to you and, and what is truly rewarding and what, what will allow you to get to the end of each day and each year and to the end of your life without regret. And for me, that, I mean, the, the, the real recipe is, you know, paradoxically, it's not worrying about the future, it's not worrying about the past, it's not, uh, being, uh, ambitious in all the usual ways and seeking happiness in all the usual ways, it's actually developing a capacity to be more and more present so that you, you kind of equalize your moments, whereas like even if you're just, you know, stuck in traffic, you can locate a, a depth of well-being that makes that not a problem, right? I mean, you're, you're, you're, the, the, the lesson of life as far as I can tell is that you can't become happy. You can only be happy. I mean, that's really, it's like that, that is the, the structure of our psychology that goes on acknowledged for most of our lives. We let, we live most of our lives thinking we, we can become happy. All we have, what we have to do is we have to get all the things and all the accolades and all the pieces in place such that we have a good enough story and good enough reasons to finally be happy. Uh, but, uh, for the most part, that's a mirage, right? And, and you need to only look at all the super successful people who are obviously unhappy to be convinced of that, right? I mean, they're, they're successful people who are, I don't mean just rich. I mean, you know, I don't mean just random billionaires who made their money in some terribly boring way or, you know, lottery winners. I mean, people who got, who were, who were incredibly creative and talented and had all their talents actualized and, and rewarded and I mean, says, think of someone like, you know, Prince or Picasso or, or Steve Jobs, right? These guys were, were effectively geniuses. Um, they got everything, you know, they could want, you know, they, they, they, they, they dug one, one well as deep as they could dig it. And the world loved them for it. And they were obviously unhappy people, right? I mean, they're, you know, to one or another degree, they were, they were schmucks. Um, and so there's something more, something more is required. And that more is finding a way to actually fall into the well of the present moment, more and more, such that you can actually just love people and love your life and, and recognize how beautiful life is even in its ordinary moments, right? And, and thought is not good enough for that project. You know, you're, you're, you're never going to have good enough thoughts about the past or the future to allow you to really live that way. And, um, so it is a, again, it does come back to this question of attention. Uh, but riding on top of that, you know, I think you want to live an ethical and gratitude filled life, right? You don't want to be, don't be Elon Musk, right? Don't be somebody who, you know, lies, you know, in, in Trumpian fashion about everything and demonizes everyone in sight and takes no responsibility for the harms he causes and, you know, worries about things like, you know, white genocide and then signal boosts Nazis on, on the social media platform that he owns. And I mean, like, the guy's a toe, he's a first trillionaire. Uh, and now first former trillionaire, but he's a total maniac, right? I mean, it's like that, that's what it looks like to have a mind that's out of control, right? That's, that's what's being showcased for the entire world. Um, that's, there's nothing to emulate there as much as you might admire the fact that he can land a rocket on a, on a barge. That's a wonderful thing. But at what point, where's it written that you have to be an unhappy asshole to land a rocket on a barge? I don't think that's the case. Um, and so we should be drawing the right lessons from all of this, which is, um, you know, we need successful people who recognize that in their success, they really want other people to succeed, too, right? And there's a social fabric that they're part of that they didn't make. And that's, that fabric can unravel. And, uh, when I look at the heights of our, certainly the, the world, which you spend a lot of time, you know, in and thinking about, you know, the heights of entrepreneurship and business, uh, I'm not seeing many examples of truly ethical people who are modeling, uh, you know, a real commitment to being a good citizen and a, and a good, uh, steward of, of, of the future or anything much else that's worth caring about. I mean, there's kind of a rare patience feeding of the trough now and a, uh, a shattering of our political lives. And, um, we have to pull back from this because it's getting weird out there. - Sam Harris is a neuroscientist in the host of the Making Sense podcast. I want to thank everyone for tuning in for joining us. Also, if you want to find more of Sam's work, just check out a sub-stack. And if you'd like to join Future livestream, subscribe to [email protected]. Sam anecdote, I had lunch with a guy named Jay Surus. - Yeah. - I believe his name is the vice chair of VTA and on the Board of Regents for UC. And your name came up and he's out. Went to high school with Sam. I'm like, I don't know what was Sam like in high school? And he's like, I only knew him by reputation, but everyone in our high school didn't agree on anything. I'll agree. He was the smartest person in our high school. - I don't know if that's true, but Jay was ahead of me. He was a year ahead of me. - Well, it's high praise that we said. The only thing we knew about Sam at that moment when he was like 16 was he was the smartest guy in our high school. Anyway, Sam, I always enjoy the conversation. Appreciate your wisdom and friendship and just, quite frankly, you have taken so much shit online. I know it's cost you a little bit economically. I know it's cost you some cloud. And I take inspiration from you 'cause honey badger don't give a shit. I really do think you have a moral compass and you're willing to take the bullets as long as you think you're, you know. - Well, again, getting off social media is the life hack that is I recommend there. - I'm sorry, brother. - You don't even see it, you know. I don't even know what shit you're talking about at this point. It's quite amazing. - Gary Spitzer sent me this thing saying, a guy who came in third place for the LA moral race is shit boasting me on Twitter and I'm like, I'll just take as a badge of honor. I don't even wanna go on. I don't even wanna see it. Anyways, have a great rest of the week, Sam. - Yeah, you too, man. - Great to see you guys. - Thanks everybody. Thanks for tuning in. - This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Lord Janere. Camille Rico is our social producer, Bianca Rosario and Mirras is our video editor, and Drew Burroughs is our technical director. Thank you for listening to The Property Pod from PropG Media.