Sam Harris | Club Random with Bill Maher

I don't know about you, but I'm a big fan of green in all its forms. Get it? And for fellow lovers of, well, green, the Club Random merch store has you covered. Grinders, papers, and zippo lighters all designed to support your relationship with green, wink, wink, whatever, and whatever philosophy comes with that for you, head to clubrandom.com and bring home some random. That's what we depend on you for Sam. Thank you. I'm so glad to bring you this info moral analysis. I never took it personally. I don't think that's quite true. I think you did take it personally. I said you were right to take it personally. Hey, pal. How are you? Good. I'm glad you could come by. Made myself a gin and tonic. Awesome for you. What bigger treat in my life? Yeah. Isn't this great? Yeah. It's what is the best thing about podcasting people. Would you and I, if it wasn't a podcast, be sitting here at five o'clock on Wednesday? In a perfect world, I hope so, but, you know, I see the months fly off. Do you? Do you? Who do you like just? Yeah. I mean, when we were 28, you know, like, what are you doing? Nothing. I'm a comedian. What do you mean I'm doing? It's day. Right. What do I do in the day? Nothing. Yeah. I'm a material. It's work. I hope you wrote that off. I don't know. It's always a treat. You're always the podcast I never miss. I have. Well, I've been caught some of these recently. There were some fun conversations, but conversations that kind of went sideways in ways that I was not expecting. What do you think? It seems like you and Neil deGrasse Tyson were kind of at a locker heads. I forgot the details. Oh, there's years ago. I mean, no, no, there was a recent one. Or did it just hit my algorithm? Yeah. Didn't you just say it was at least two years old? Oh, I saw that as a recent one. Okay, then. That's interesting. That's the thing about you. The good thing about, and the bad, yeah, I think mostly the good is that they never go away. Right. You know, they're always there. And if you want to see Neil. I mean, look, Neil got woke at the expense of science. Something I would think I could count on your support. I mean, I couldn't get this was on real time, but I don't know if it came up on the show. But I couldn't get him to condemn the Atlantic magazine. And I think it was scientific American. Both of whom said separating by sports does not, by sex. That was the thing. That was the thing. Now, that to me is the kind of thing that, you know, first attracted me to what you do. Like the common sense, like you've got to be kidding. And, you know, you and I pretty much lockstep on most things, including like we do not let the left off the hook when they go crazy. That's, I think, a lot of our credibility comes from that. And if you don't think it makes sense to separate sports by sex. And you're the preeminent science teacher in this country. That should have been some clue that that was not it. Not last month's podcast, because it seems an agronistic to be debated now. But why? I don't feel like those magazines have retracted it. Or that that, I don't think, well, retraction might be asking too much. But I haven't seen anyone defend it lovely. I feel like that specific trench is no longer occupied on the left. I mean, it could be wrong, I mean, you know, but like, where's Gavin Newsom on that? And I feel like everyone's pivoted among known Democrats. Every time I have the specific issue of trans girls or trans women in sports and women in sports. Okay, but this is, this is a somewhat, obviously related, but somewhat different issue. This is saying there's no point even having the NBA and the WNBA. Because the differences there are only because of cultural norms. That, please Sam, don't tell me I've lost you. If that's true, you should expect the women to eventually just start showing up in the NBA and crushing the guys. Or at least, at least hanging with the guys without any problem. It's not worth discussing. Although I tell you what, so I don't know if you follow MMA at all, but-- I know what it is. I mean, obviously, you know, men and women should be in separate brackets and they are. And so, you know, those different differences to apply. But the women have gotten so much better at fighting. Like, it used to be that even the best women sort of fought like girls. I mean, you could see like a talent difference. But to watch women's martial arts is just-- I mean, it's just astonishing. I mean, there's some of these women are superheroes. Against each other. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, but there you can notice like a skilled differential that had to be cultural. Right? Because they just absorb the skills that-- I would say even more so with the WNBA. I mean, they play an amazingly entertaining and highly skilled brand of basketball. That is in no way competitive with the men. That's not a misogynistic statement. Who's the first-- who's the canary in the call-mind on this point? Wasn't it John McEnroe who made some claim that if Serena Williams played the-- But you've read her-- Yeah, her quote backs him up. She agreed with him, yeah, yeah. But that was a long time ago. That was like, you know, 20 years ago or something? No. Wasn't it? Serena Williams, 20 years ago, when he made that quote-- No, not that long ago. And hers was much more recent. Oh. I mean, she said, you know-- I thought that preceded the-- What we have come to know is-- Wokeness. But-- In my answer, I follow sports closely. I mean, I think Wokeness-- I mean, I did a show called Politically Incorrect. There's the sign. I feel like Wokeness began before it was like-- It went into full overdrive. I mean, each succeeding generation, I think, you know, kind of goes more in that direction, more sensitive. You know, I remember when Gen Z was coming about and a lot of the talk was, oh, they're going to backlash the millennials. Well, they'd front lash them. Yeah. They went-- The millennials look like Marines. Yeah. Yeah, although I feel like-- I mean, this could be just wishful thinking. But I feel like the spell is breaking. I mean, we won't know until we hit this full presidential election cycle. In 2028, I think. I mean, when we feel the candidate and see what he or she cannot say. But yeah, I mean, I just-- I feel like it's just not as much of a thing. Again, I got a bracket that's with my sense that I might not be in touch with just what the far left activists are up to now and how-- Oh, you're used to me. Yeah. I mean, what I see in my news diet isn't revealing to me the same level of crazy. Well, I must tell you that a lot of the commentary about where the Democrats should be-- I'm talking about the mainstream politicians as they position themselves in the coming midterms and then 2028. On Israel and Jews, there's the same level of crazy. I mean, there's a new level of crazy. But on gender issues and racial issues, I feel like I'm not saying that. Well, again, a lot of the commentary from a lot of people who you respect, I think, and would know, like Andrew Sullivan, I think. People like that. No, he's not woke. No, no. Let me finish. Oh, sorry. I'm jumping all over you. Yeah. The commentary is that the Democratic politicians are not walking away from this issue. That they haven't done that. In fact, I'll give you an example. I remember citing it recently. Seth Molten. You're familiar. Yeah, but I haven't really followed what he's up to. But I mean-- Oh. Okay. I haven't. I can't bring to mind anything he said on these topics. I can't tell you. He said-- he was highly praised by me and others that I would assume you back in-- maybe it was-- It was the 24 campaign. And he said, "I don't want my daughter on the field hockey field being run over my 12-year-old daughter, being run over by a boy who was identifying as a girl. But he's going to run-- He's going to be casticated for this? He's chief of staff. I think it was chief of staff quit. Right. Like quit. Like this is just saying it. And not even that but discussion. Because we just get in the break room and, you know, plus he's right. And it's the position that most Americans who are not anti-drands, it's not bad. It's just, again, separating sports by sex makes sense. So people praise them, I did, for, you know, in what constitutes, even though it seems ridiculous to me, sticking your neck out on the issue in the Democratic Party, I guess it is. And then recently, he kind of recanted. Oh, that's how I didn't see that. Yeah. I was hoping that it would make more people come out of the woodwork and he crawled back into it. the woodwork. Right. So, I don't know. That's the most depressed. Yeah. Well, I guess honestly, I could be out of touch on this, but I don't think we're going to know until we, we, or have a proper presidential race happening and we know what people are doubling down on. Yeah. I mean, it's just, just, yeah, if it, it's obviously suicidal for the Democrats to die on this hill. I mean, this is the, that's what people are saying. Yeah. That's the phrase that comes up a lot. Why are you dying on this hill? Yeah. Especially since it's not even a noble hill. I don't know. I mean, I think it's a morally confused hill at best, and psychologically confused hill. And I'm not sure, I mean, it's a very complicated topic, but it's, it's clear that this, this, you know, specific activist orbit is politically just an absolute dead end. I mean, the, the, the topic is such a super stimulus for at least half the country that they will, I mean, they will, yeah, they will resist it without any other political concern. I think possibly on the scale. I mean, it's just like this is the thing that they will, they will never vote for somebody who is, who is not making sense on that topic. I don't blame them. I mean, Andrew talks about it a lot. I always think he's the best on this topic. Coming from a gay man's perspective, he doesn't like what's happened to the trans and gay lump together and how they kind of hijacked the whole game movement. And thinks a lot of the kids being trans, they're just gay kids if you would just let it take its course instead of rushing it. We don't do it like other countries. We are the furthest out there. As far as like letting kids self-diagnose, doing it earlier, you know, and now the pediatricians associate something. They have said, no, you're right. We shouldn't be doing this. So did the --In the UK, they did that. --No, here, two groups here. I associated something in plastic surgeons. I guess they're the ones who actually do the operations. They also say, no, no, no, we're throwing in the towel on this one. So it is changing. I mean, honestly, it's a genuinely confusing landscape. I mean, I think it's their clear cases where this is like a, you know, obviously not culturally communicated to the kid. I mean, you're talking about a kid at age four saying they're in the wrong body. And there's just no incentives that could explain this coming from the parents. And then there's just over here pure social contagion, which is probably burning off, you know, or you know, eventually will burn off. And then there's everything in between. And there's just, I mean, the stuff you referenced with Andrew talking about the zero sum conflict between trans rights and gay rights and over here, women's rights. And that algebra became, if we could just relax enough to be kind of compassionate and compassionate with all of this, it's just interesting to have to figure out how to navigate this because it's surprising that suddenly you discover attention between women's rights, trans rights, gay rights. And it's, if everyone wasn't in such a rush to burn it all down, we might actually be able to have my conversation about it. You want my analysis of what the overarching place this comes from? Yeah, yeah, sure. You know what I'm saying? I can't listen to this. It's 530. I came here for this purpose. You know, I'm seeing that excited about it. Brian Monten's in need of that. I think it mostly comes from, there is a faction of the left that their whole identity is really about being social justice warriors. I remember during COVID, David Lee and Hart in the New York Times, who really great reporter, and he did the story about the percentage of Republicans versus Democrats, what their assessment was, how many people with COVID were hospitalized? The Democrats were off like by 50%. Yeah, there was like half the population. And I forget what the line that he wrote was, but it was something like, on the left, like COVID safety is very core to their identity. And I'm just not talking about just COVID, but like, it's very core to their identity that we're the good people. We're the people who don't want anybody to die from COVID. Well, nobody really died. Nobody was. They were on a disagreement, but nobody really wanted people to die. People make trade-offs with death all the time. You know, we've turned that. We draw all drive cars, people die. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. So, but that was the overarching thing was like, we have to be the good people. On COVID, on, you know, people with the lawn signs. It's in this, in this house, we believe there are, you know, no illegals on stolen land and all of this, and you know, things I don't disagree with, of course. Well, I disagree with the stolen landing that silly either shut up or give it back. But, you know, just in general, they have this idea that they are only really fully alive if they are taking the cause of some marginalized group. So they keep finding, I mean, obesity was one for a while. I mean, again, that's completely or well-earned. Like, healthy at any weight, how dare anyone tell you that that is bad for you to be obese now that we have ozemic, that all went out the window. But that's, that's interesting. Yeah. Homeless. Same thing. Like, somehow that got completely inverted. We defend your right to live on the sidewalk, where it used to be the compassionate thing was to get you off the sidewalk, right? All these, you know, areas were disabled. It was like, how dare you say that that's, and then it's just different. It's not, it's not a handicap. You have to rethink what you think about disabled. It's just a different way of doing it. We're not worse because we can't hear. Yeah. If I couldn't hear, I think I was worse. I would like to get my hearing back. All these things, it just marginalized people. And I think this is, this is what you have with the trends. We found the civil rights issue of our generation, and we can go into battle. You know, they, to them, progress is a threat. Yeah. I mean, you never admit that it's been accomplished. And that's the thing. I mean, I, I think you could see that most clearly on race, right? It's like we, we made so much progress. And then we got to a point where we had to be told from the far left that no, this is just a sham form of progress. Actually, things have never been worse on some level. I mean, two two black president met nothing. That's basically tokenism. And we just have a, a five alarm fire right now in the year, you know, 2019 around race. And everything had to be subsumed by that. Yeah. That's another one of the examples. I mean, that, to me, obviously, there still is racism, you know, and there always will be just like, there will always be criminals. You know, it's just not something that unfortunately you can extirpate from the hearts of people, and you can't legislate that away. I mean, I think there's more racism now than there was. I mean, I think there's a bat certainly a backlash to black and brown identity politics, right? So we have white identity politics now on the right, which is not good. And whether you think about that is just unmasking the racism that was already there or producing new racists, I don't know how you figure that out. But it does seem like a less hopeful moment around race and America than it did. Yes, they, they went to a place as we've discussed, many people have discussed, oppressed, oppressor. Everything had to be one or the other. So the whole Middle East thing got subsumed to that. Yeah. Again, ridiculously. Ridiculously. The idea that, you know, they didn't really think of it any further than the Palestinians are browner and poorer. They must be the good guys. Hamas, the good guys. Bring on the Infatata. That's liberation and the white people. And of course, Jews. I think you said Infatata. That might be some, some dish that I haven't had, but it's a Intifada. What did I say? Infatata, which, we might, oh, you gotta think that's our Arcofethi now. Try it with rice. Intifada. Is that it? Intifada. Yeah. Well, you know, which you don't want to globalize kids out there. If you're, if you're in doubt about this, don't globalize the Intifada. That's not, not a good thing. No. But somehow we, somehow they worked their way back after 9/11 to this position. I'm talking again about the, the, the clueless woke of the far left, the emo children of Wokeville found their way to this place where somehow the good people were the ones who violate every liberal principle much more than anybody else. You know, I mean, Iran now. What's going on? I mean, before the war, before the war, like it's a civil war, I mean, it could be over in a week who knows. But before that, I mean, what they were going nuts over was first just killing people willy-nilly in the streets protesting. And before that, it was because a woman about two years ago, I forget the name, you might remember, would, would not wear the, or she was caught covering your hair. I mean, something like that, and they killed her in prison and then there was mass protests and they killed all the people protesting her getting killed. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, I mean, this is, if we should, we should plant a flag here at least, I mean, this is a scandal on, should be a scandal left of center that liberals in America or liberals in the West found so little common cause to make with the women of Iran over the last 20 years. And the whole Muslim world. Oh, yeah. I mean, not that it was so clear in Iran and it was so clear that the, I mean, it was so clear to, if you talk to anyone in the Iranian diaspora, I mean, it's just excruciating, right? It's like, these are the, these are the least confused people in the world, the Persians in America around this, and on the left, it's just, and women are treated shitty by many cultures. Not just. But not quite this shitty. Not, thank you, Sam, that's exactly what I was hoping you'd be on the street in America. Not quite this shitty. And not quite this pervasive. And not, you know, government sanctioned. Oh, yeah. I mean, mom Donnie is half Ugandan, born in Ugandan, yeah, and goes back there. Some are home. I don't know what. But, you know, there's no movement on the left to get him to renounce that a little. The government of Ugandan is like very officially, proudly on the page of, no, we got to kill the homosexuals. You know, well, you know, it's just like it's the brilliance of double standards. I mean, just you keep score differently when you want to and then you don't have to reconcile these ethical contradictions. I mean, they do it, obviously, on the right too. I mean, this whole country is sort of run by the principle of everything is terrible until we do it. Well, that was perfectly okay. Well, I was going to ask you what has surprised you most in the last year, but you just indicated one of the things that surprised me most, which was after the killing of Alex Prede, how the gun culture did not erupt in defense of the second amendment. I mean, because in the immediate aftermath of that killing, you had everyone from the president on down, speaking, I mean, this was the president. It was JD Vance. It was, it was Pam Bondi. It was Cache Patel, speaking as though the second amendment simply does not exist. They're basically excited. Listen, if you're armed near federal law enforcement, you might be killed. That's just the status quo in America, you know, except the people who you can find empty in pictures of on the internet, walking into Chipotle here with them saying, "Exactly, right." Where were those guys? Like they're in the Mate Kong Delta in 1967, they've got an assault rifle. Okay, it's not officially an assault rifle. I know gunnuts, they love to catch you on the, you know. And AR50, you would, if this had happened under Biden or Kamala Harris, you would see 500 guys with AR-15s at every centralized deployment. Can you imagine if January 6th was a mob of black people attacking the Capitol? Yeah. Yeah, cannot imagine that the point event just sang with the fact that I truly believe they would have called out jet fighters. I do. I would not be surprised if they would have bombed and strafed the crowd. It just, well, it is amazing that more people weren't killed. I mean, that seemed like a situation where they could have just opened fire on the crowd. And I mean, just, it was, I mean, I could have gone, I think we would have drawn a very different lesson, had that happened, you know, that it would have been impossible to say, it was a non-event. I mean, the fact that, you know, only one person was killed and you had that weird footage of, you know, cops basically declaring bankruptcy and just letting people in through other doors once they realized they could do nothing. That gets spun. And then you got half the country thinking, okay, this is just a completely fake event. Right. But I know you got to always love Trump with the inability to ever cover his tracks of selfishness. And he said, they're not here to hurt me. Right. Yeah. There's something, because he said something all the time, all the time, isn't it? It's the most brilliant strategy, nothing can really be a scandal, if everything is a scandal. I was watching Gavin Newsom go through hoops lately, because he said something, I'm sure you saw it. He was in Atlanta talking to the mayor and he said, you know, to an all black crowd or. Yeah. I got 940 on my SAT or I got 960 on my SAT, like just like you guys, I'm dumb like you. Yeah. And of course, I really feel for any politician, because they're on like the, I've been on book tours. You've been on book tours, they're grueling, similar to campaigning, I guess. You know, you do so many events a day. So many words are tumbling out of your mouth. And if you're a Democrat and any 12 of those words are it artfully chosen, you are toast or at least it's a scandal and you have to answer for it. And it was, I don't think he's saying what they're thinking, they're not. But you can make the case because we are a country of bad faith. So as long as you can hang it up there and go, look, come on, deny it. He said, okay, you got me. But Trump didn't have to, never has to answer for that. No. Because he would just double down and go, yeah. And? Well, even so we're all going to live in and die in by clips now and some of these clips are clearly meant to mislead, right? So people take clips of, they do it, they do it to us, they do it to get a news in presumably. I actually did, I think I only saw the clip, I didn't see the full context, but so the possibilities of distortion there are almost limitless. But the truth is even with Trump, he doesn't pay a price for it. I mean, he's been clipped out of context to his disadvantage, but again, he's got, he's working by different physics. There's just no, it just, it almost never matters. I mean, the one thing that is still dogging him, again, it doesn't matter, but if you ask most people left of center to bring to mind the scandal around Charlottesville and what Trump said in the aftermath and when he said they're good people on both sides and what he meant there, virtually everyone left of center thinks he was praising the neo-Nazis and, I mean, they could be working at the New York Times at the Atlantic and they still think he was praising the neo-Nazis and that was, that was clipped out of context, I mean. And see, that's where you and I, I think, are more similar than most people. Yeah. I mean, if you and I have beef, the world isn't a big, isn't a bad place because it would be like the old fourth century Christians when they were like, you know, there was like those, you know, the Aryans and the Chelsea deans, and they were just arguing over like, no, Jesus's force can went to heaven with him and the other, Blasphemer, you know, like, we're very close on these things. And that was something I've also also said, like, you, he did, Trump say it in artfully yes, but, you know, you went to the true part as I tried to do all the time, true. Not just say, oh, it was Trump so we can jump on that. That's bad faith. But Joe Biden launched his campaign on that when it went on his website when he describes why he launched his campaign, the, he's got, it's got like four sentences and the four sentences refer to that moment where they will never move away from it because it's something you got it. You got him. Yeah. And we don't play that game. It's like, no, you, there's so much you can get him on. You don't need to get him on that. And it's, you know, I, I know how he thinks. So when he said, good people on both sides, he meant, you know, there are people who like me in that crowd. Those are good people. That's just the way he's right, the whatever is going on in that way. And we're still, he said, you know, 15 seconds before the offending sentences, he said, I'm not talking about the white supremacists. They should be condemned utterly. Right. So he clearly bracketed it with some sane statement about, you know, who he was not present. It's a little muddy because the white supremacists also do like him. Right. And he cannot, he can generally, cannot dislike someone who likes him. Even David Duke and Putin, if somebody says, I'm brilliant, well, they're brilliant. We know that. We got to work backwards from that. They think I'm brilliant. They're a great guy. And so, you know, so should we talk about, should we do a postman? A postman. Right. I mean, so much has happened since we, yeah, because I want to ask you about what's happened since. Well, it's bad timing a little bit because it's Wednesday before Friday, I'm going to answer on my show Friday, but this is probably airing the Monday after. So it will event between, he wrote on Valentine's Day or he, you know, went off on me, which I always knew would happen. I mean, I have gotten texts from him that were similar. Well, you know, you're still part of the radical lunatic left and, you know, I see you forgot about the dead area, but, well, okay. The deal never was that I would hold my fire and I didn't, you know. know, I mean, this is the little argument we had and I, uh, and so I always knew this would happen, but I do want to prove to him because it, you know, the whole thing was Trump derangement syndrome that I don't have a Trump derangement syndrome, which this is very apropos example of. If you can look at that, find people on both sides, statement, and look at the truth of it and say, as we are saying about him, you can't get him on that. Yeah. Then that, then you don't have Trump derangement syndrome. But if you can't, as you said, Biden, and I'm sure lots of people who just, then that is a bit of TDS, you know, well, the truth is I think most people who are making that mistake don't even know they're making the mistake. They just saw the clip and I think the clip was an honest representation of what he said. And, but I mean, what, what amazes me is that even our best journalists are in that bucket. I mean, I've seen this air get made, you know, at least a hundred times, and again, it's in the Atlantic and the New York Times, it's everywhere. Well, it's interesting. The second day of the war was yesterday, as we're talking about the Iran war. And the New York Times headline was, you know, US troops die. That was like what they led with. No, that is a big part of the story that troops have died. I mean, it's kind of a bigger story than that. Okay. But then in a country where I've read 80 to 90% of the people are thrilled that the Iatola is gone. What picture did they put? Picture of people mourning the Iatola, which exists. But I can't believe that somebody at the desk didn't get, I've got a great picture of people dancing in the streets. Yeah, we're going to go with the people who, we're going to go with the 10% who were sorry the Iatola is dead, because that's going to funnel the thought of our readers toward, oh, this is a bad war to get into. Yeah. Now, we can talk about whether it is or it isn't. But that to me is the difference in what the media does now and what they didn't use to do. Like, you're funneling me toward an opinion, whereas I would love it if you just told me what happened. Yeah, I mean, the boundary between activism and journalism has really broken down. That's that's I mean, we, you know, I think we'll get to a place where we rebuild trust and at least some of these institutions, but we're not there yet. And where are you with this new war? Well, I think you, you just have to hold two thoughts in your head simultaneously. The first is that it was an evil regime that we should have crushed and could have, you know, ethically crushed at any point since 1979. So it seems to me to be an intrinsic good to have done that. And I think, you know, we should have come to the aid of the Iranian people earlier than we did. I think I think the foreign policy of Obama and Biden on this front was a scandal. Yeah. I mean, I just think, I mean, we were bizarrely deterred by Iran through both of those presidencies. Like, we were scared, clearly scared of Iran. We would put up with any offense from them to us. I mean, you know, to say nothing of them, you know, killing our soldiers in Iraq and, and we just, we put up with everything. We put up with the Salman, I think that was crazy. Yeah, crazy. I thought the Obama plan, which was to bring them into the family of nations and the deal was they would not get a nuclear weapon for 15 years. That never made sense to me. Okay. Yeah, I just thought you thought it was worth a try. But that moment has passed, whether it was or not, and maybe I was wrong, maybe it never was. And maybe they were always cheating. And also there was a big flaw in it from the beginning, which was the deal was you give up your nukes. But we're not pestering you about being terrorists. Right. You keep doing that. But I mean, terrorists is one word for it. I mean, the core concept for me is they were, they were always jihadists. This was a jihadist regime. And their, you know, death to America, death to Israel, spiel, was sincere. Yes. You know, they're clearly had genocidal aspirations with respect to Israel. And we couldn't count, the accountants them getting a bomb. And I don't think we could have ever have really negotiated with them. They were always going to, I don't think the Middle East puzzle, which has been a thorn in our side, the whole world side for so long, would ever get fixed before Iran got fixed. It's just too vital to the region. All right. So that's the first thought you have to hold in your head. But the second thought is it is absolutely valid to be worried about this war. And even opposed to it, given these further facts, which is we have the most corrupt, most incompetent administration we've ever had. And is every reason to worry that this is being done for the wrong reasons. It'll be done badly. Trump may just pivot, you know, a week from now saying, well, I'm done with this. We won. I mean, these people lie about everything. I don't know about that. I mean, I feel like domestically, yes, I would go with that. Somehow overseas, I mean, he, like it was late in the day, but it was better than anybody else did getting the hostages back. Oh, yeah. That was great. Okay. And then there was, no, but I've actually said he deserves the Nobel Prize for that. Yeah, right. I did too. And, and also the, you know, just a basic framework going back to the first administration with the Abraham Accords. I mean, he has approached the Middle East differently. And with better results, I'm sorry. I mean, somehow, you know, he's the best friend Israel ever had as far as like just backing them. And being unabashed by saying, we believe in Western values and democracy. And there's one place in the Middle East that mirrors those values. And that's Israel. I mean, Obama and those people, that's what I liked least about their committees policy. We always had to pretend. Everything was 50, 50. Well, it's not 50, 50. I mean, you talk about this more eloquently than anybody. The moral confusion of people who don't get this, this ridiculous idea that we have to pretend that the most people who put the women in the beekeeper suits and use children as suicide bombers and civilians as two sides to this dilemma. You know, people said that out Charlie Edbo. On the other hand, drawing cartoons. Those were vicious cartoons. Sure. A room full of dead cartoonists, machine gun in the middle of the day. Yes. But, you know, cartoons. But what did they draw? Punching down, Sam. Yeah. Punching down is the worst thing you could ever do is punching that. I don't have to tell you. Well, so I certainly hope that I'm wrong, but I'm just saying that that the people who are worried that Trump did not build any consensus among Americans for this war. They didn't consult Congress that we've got people like Pete Higgseth running the show. All of this is, you know, suspicious. And we have no allies other than Israel. But did it turn out that bad with the Venezuelan one. You know, I don't think we know yet. I mean, we'll just, but just as well as like in a year. Just the mission itself. I mean, just, yeah, no, but that was a very surgical, you know, I mean, just take just special ops. That's the best we got. Just say, just say, we don't know who did it. It just happened. We don't know who the administration, those people were experts. Yeah. If you just heard what happened, what they did. Amazing. That's a bond film. Yeah. It's amazing. They were, and I've heard the details since, not just from the right, you know, they were able to like get this guy. By the way, I got to say the world's bad guys are fucking idiots, but people that mull us in Iran are all men in one place. That's all gather. Senator, what's about Zoom? Yeah. I think it might be a good time to just zoom in. No, no, we're all gonna gather in one place. Make sure you tell the CIA where it is. I mean, they're just stupid, Madero. Just an idiot. He thought, oh, then I want to come here. And they're all paper tigers also. You know, there's something about this that I like about calling the bluff of countries that for years, you, I know you're not going to do anything because they'll say it's colonialist or racist or something that scares the shit out of you. And you know, if you do, we'll bite back. Yeah, okay. I bet you ran, I bet you ran in a week, has no missiles left. And they have no way of fighting. They're, they're no air force. They're, they're just completely helpless to, we might see some terrorism. I think that's something to be worried about. Yeah. But I mean, if Venezuela is, to me, that's the only thing we have to go by as a guide. Well, I think it's, I think it is a fundamentally different situation. I just, this is very, very different. It's different in ways. I don't know. So, so, so Venezuela, you're looking at what we're very, very good at and is, is kind of immune to whatever, I mean, it's like whatever motives we had for doing it, if you just tell Delta Force, go get that guy. But that's not just all we did. There's a new idea. No, I'm not saying it's going to work yet, but it's definitely different than nation building, which is what we tried to do in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that is this idea of kill the guy in charge who's really bad. The next guy up put the gun to his head and said, You see what happened in that last guy? How do you like to work with us? Because we're not going to take over your country. Yeah, see, we're not going to take-- I think Iran is fundamentally different from Venezuela. That could be the case. Or the next guy is also religious fanatic and the guy behind him is a fanatic. Yeah, but the truth is, not a bunch of religious-- No, no. But if you're going to maintain the Islamic regime or the IRGC, if you're going to-- Yeah, I don't think the other thing to worry about, again, second idea, in addition to it being good to dethrone jihadis, the second problem with Trump is that the communication about this has been so terrible. They've given every possible motive and none for doing this. That'll be forgotten in a month. Well, if it works out well. I mean, so did George Bush with the Iraq War. Remember, it was the first it was about jobs. Right, but like jobs. By one of the things he said is-- one thing Trump has said is he's imagined-- he's just spitballing here-- but he's imagining that the IRGC is just kind of rejoin the population. IRGC being the-- The Republican Guard, you know. OK. These are the people who just killed however many thousands of protesters. But I'm going to put my marker down here. It's March 4th, the only dead it gives in order. Think about it, kids. March 4th, 2026, I think that this is the moment where it finally does happen. I think I've seen it before with Communists regimes when they fell after the Berlin Wall went down. I mean, Chauchesco in Romania, just to give one example, was in his palace with the 2,500 rooms where everyone was lit. Well, the people had no electricity and had 60 watt light bulbs. And right up into the end, he did-- Have you seen the footage where he actually lost power? There's-- you can actually see the footage. I mean, you can just find this on YouTube power. Not. No, not like where he was standing in front of a very large crowd saying something. And there was this moment-- I remember almost none of these details, but I just know this video is findable on YouTube. There's a moment where he worries about his own security in front of a crowd. And they just kind of disappear because it was just clearly not safe for him to be in front of a crowd. And what's amazing is all of these totalitarian regimes, however powerful they become, you're almost never in a situation where if the crowd wanted to take back power, they really couldn't do it. I mean, like even if you got 100 guys with guns, if you got 15,000 people in a crowd, they can kill all those guys with guns. It's just no one-- this is a coordination problem. No one wants to be the first person shot. And-- I mean, the Iranians have already lost probably what, 20,000 people who were looking to get shot. But it's still-- I mean, again, that is just the nature. No one-- those are peaceful protests where the guns are being turned on. But they do. But people-- I'm just saying, if you could solve the coordination problem, where a crowd decides, OK, we're just going to kill these guys, right? Like, as a very hard to make that decision to all together. You know, what happens is that the Praetorian Guard changes. They say, you know what? I see this is going the other way. I just can't fight the whole country. I don't want to. And they join the other side. I mean, we've seen many revolutions. If there-- Always has to be accepted by the other thing. If you're the guy who just killed my family, because you were on the other side of the politics, am I just going to welcome you back once you decide to put your OK47-- Yeah, these are-- These are much more difficult choices than we have here in America. But there is-- it's a tipping point thing. There does become a tipping point. And I think the message of, this is your moment. We're helping, like, in a big way. And it is real right now. What they're doing now. We're not helping-- again, this is-- I'm all for this except there's so many mistakes we've already made. Like, if our goal was-- first of all, we should have a coherent goal that we can articulate to our own population and to our Congress. We haven't had that. If the goal is, listen, it's finally time to unseat this regime and free the Iranian people. Right, there's-- there's a-- Whatever it is, 80% of people want to live in something like a secular democracy. We're going to help them do it. If we were really aligned with that, there are things we would do differently. I mean, we've just-- we disbanded voice of America, or like, put it in the hands of Kerry Lake, who disbanded it. And like, so we have no messaging into-- OK, you know what? Far from voice of America is a Tomahawk missile. Well, that's what the voice of America is. Maybe just to help them, they have a coordination problem to solve. There are ways that-- it is totally rational to have absolutely no confidence that Trump and Pete Hegseth are really thinking in humanitarian terms about how to help the Iranian people. They're just trying to win this in whatever what everyone means in their brains. OK. And-- and I just-- my fear is that Trump, unlike every other president we could name in our lifetime, Trump is actually capable of breaking everything and then just turning on his heels and saying, we won-- it's the greatest day for America. Now, have you seen these curtains? These are-- these curtains are amazing. Yeah, but that's pretty much what the plan is. We don't want to go back to nation building. We don't-- I'm not saying we do. But I was disappointed the other day when he said, we might put boots on the ground. Yeah. Because that's what I don't want to do. And I thought-- Like, if he can make Venezuela a functioning country-- and by the way, the connector to there is Cuba, because they also get the oil from Venezuela. And they're right on the brink. And they're having negotiations, apparently, with Marco Rubio. Well, that is a situation where I'm actually-- I mean, I know almost nothing about this, but I can well imagine Cuba is totally doable. Unlike Venezuela, unlike Iran, I bet we could roll into Cuba and say, listen, guys, this is all going to change. Is either-- is either going to be a resort community and you're all going to be rich or because communism is over. And there's a new sheriff in town. Well, you're just pulling that out of your ass because-- I know, but the Cuban Communist Party is as entrenched in Cuba as much more so than it is, I think, in Venezuela. They're socialist, they're not-- I don't know if they know what they are. I mean, they've been all around. It's Cuba's been-- No, but I mean, it's in 1959. But in the aftermath, you know, I'm-- But again, getting the topspin from what we've done in Venezuela and what is happening in Iran. What the basic plan is, as opposed to what we tried in the past, which was nation-building. The plan is, you cut the head off the snake. You say to the vice snake, you want to get on board because this hasn't been working anyway. We both know it. We both know that these are horrible failed societies. I mean, like, something like a quarter of the Venezuelan people have left. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's an incredible statement. A quarter of the people. It's like in this country of-- But again, in Venezuela, we seem to have absolutely no connection to a real humanitarian purpose. We're not trying to-- We were just-- Humanitarian purpose is to get rid of the government. That was a-- No, but we didn't do that. We just got rid of the top guy and his wife. And then we're taking it out to the oil. But now we're talking. We're talking to them and saying, do you want to live? If you want to live, we would like-- It was the oil. We're not-- If the oil is part of it. Yeah, I mean, it was explicitly part of it in a way. Oh, of course. I'm not going to get me to defend Trump on corruption. I've done 20 editorials about how corrupt he is. And there's always a side deal for the family. That's one reason why he's always mad at me, still, of course. But OK, put that aside for a second. You said two thoughts are important, right? The other thought is, in the long run, if we could get Venezuela to not be this basket case in the southern hemisphere, wouldn't that be worth it? And the idea, if you're not going to do nation building, if you're not going to topple like we did Saddam Hussein, and then install somebody that have the population resents and thinks is put there by Uncle Sam, if you're going to let it happen a little more organically and just threaten the next person to say, OK, just pivot. Pivot to this way of doing things. I think it's worth a try. We've tried everything else. And if that can work in Venezuela, and I don't know why it couldn't-- I mean, there are a million reasons why it couldn't-- There's lots of criminal gangs. I mean, there's a lot going on in Venezuela. But it's just the wrong analogy where we're wrong. I mean, you don't have in Venezuela is the religious fanaticism and the history of theocracy. If you left the theocrats in charge and just got kind of younger, more-- We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. We're going to kill the next wave. I know, but there's 10,000 of those guys. Yeah, but there's also a large population of people who want the opposite. Absolutely. But the irony here is that in this cuts against your bias, which I share, no more nation building, no more boots on the ground. Iran was always the best case for nation building. I mean, there's a much more sophisticated culture. But it has to happen organically or internally. Right. But again, this is. This is a situation where we could have been greeted with flowers, unlike in Afghanistan. I mean, Afghanistan was just that possibility was unthinkable. In Iraq, I understand how people were confused. In Iran, you really, given the nature of the culture outside of Iran, the diaspora, and given just the subterranean level of secularism and sophistication, in Iran, and just how tired they are with theocracy. I mean, I once got on a Zoom call with, I was like, a hundred Persians to just talk about, I was, you know, Islam and, you know, jihadism. And it could have just gone to dinner in West Korea. But, I mean, to a man and woman, they just, they wanted us to invade their country. It was like, I mean, this was just a very different attitude. They're tired of, you know, they're tired of theocracy. Again, that's probably 20% of the population is ready to double down on theocracy and jihadism. Oh, I think maybe even more. I mean, you see the people in Iran, that's the capital, that's where the sophisticated people are. Trust me, when you get out to West Virginia, Iran, there's a lot of people. Yeah, there's a whole, yeah. Yeah, I mean, but, you know, I think it's a, it's an ancient culture, a sophisticated culture. They're not from the Middle Ages. They, that's why I was always thought, thinking that, you know, the Obama plan might work because they do kind of want to belong to the family of nations, a lot of them there. Okay, it didn't, now we're in this place. This is what has to happen. And it's unfortunate that people die in wars. I saw, you know, one of our bombs apparently hit a girl school, which is horrible. But how many millions of women in Iran could be leading better lives and have their lives spared? I haven't heard enough of this work. What happened there. What I did here is that that school used to be part of like a military base or something. Like we, it seemed like an instance of bad intelligence. Like the buildings had been part of a military base. Or there's, oh, I mean, we killed Pat Tillman in Afghanistan. We, they, Kuwaiti dude, shot down three of our friendly, you know, they thought they were shooting. The difference, I mean, to remind people, the difference here is that not even our enemies sincerely believe that we intended to bomb a girl school. Exactly. We're fighting people who will intend to bomb a girl school. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. And that's all the difference. That's everything. That's everything. That's what we depend on you for. Sam. Thank you. Oh, I'm still glad to bring this. I need more more analysis. You know, I don't worry about you. But I, you know, I mean, the Trump thing, we're free to have that differentiation of opinion. So we didn't do the post-mortem on that. Do you want to do it? Are you sure? I mean, like, I don't, I never took it personally. Well, no, I don't think that's quite true. I did. And you were right to take it. But the thing you took personally, you were right to take it personally. Oh, okay. So, no, I took on it because email personally. Because it was condescending. I know. I was not in the loop for that. I'm telling you. Yeah. It was very condescending. Okay. But that's okay. We can make up there too. Unfortunately, I don't get editorial privileges on how I know. I'm sure you don't. But my thing always was with you. It was like, I look up to you. There's so few people I look up to. As, you know, the person who, like, doesn't make judgment based on emotions. And I can't find the logical argument for not having dinner with Trump. It's either that we have to isolate him, which is insane because he's the president of the United States. You know, scorched earth policy. Nobody talked to him. Of course, maybe. Everyone has to talk to him. And half the country would love to talk to him. So that, we can't isolate him. The other argument would be, well, you're elevating him. Elevating him. Like he's going to be the president. This is insane also. Yeah. And the other argument was, you know, he would seduce me, which plainly that didn't happen. Because he's mad at me again. So to me, it's just the emotion of. I hate, like, there's nothing you, I hear you, I never miss a podcast. And when you go off on Trump, you do it in a more eloquent way as you do about everything. And like there's no place where I'm not shaking my head in agreement. You know, it's not bad. I get all the critiques and I, by the way, made a lot of them before anybody. I mean, I'm a little bored with the subject. I've done it. I did Trump, you know, mob boss in 2016, okay? So like, you know, I did, I showed the tape of him jerking off to God. It's like 42. It was okay. I wanted to go to this other level where we have this communication. And there was an article in the New York Times two days ago about the Prime Minister of Finland. His name is Alexander. I'm not sure how you pronounce this stube. Not stub. I'm not going to get any help from me. Yeah. I never heard of him. Anyway, he was a golfer. So he golves, I mean, the New York Times, this is not a quote from it. This is the time saying, they don't always agree, but Trump listens. That's what I found. And like I got so much shit for it. No, the answer is not less people like me talking to him. It's more people like me. That part, so I'm genuinely uncertain about this. So a couple of things are clear to me. And some things are just not at all clear to me. But first, I think, I think your audience might be confused about what we're talking about in terms of how you and I got sideways here. So you had your dinner with Trump. You got an immense amount of shit for it. You gave your your postmortem on your show. You got an immense amount of shit for that. And from a certain. I seem to be echoing a lot of that pain you were getting in. And so what happened on my podcast, I was reacting to many things at once. I was reacting to a lot of the podcast bros who had had Trump on their podcast. And Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughan and Andrew Schultz and the rest. And I thought performed really irresponsible interviews where they just kind of midwifeed his, his lunacy and made an election denialism seem all too plausible, etc. And I think probably got him elected in the end or were among the things that got him elected. But so I was reacting to that. And then you had, and I was reacting to you. And my reaction to you, I think, got a little topspin from my prior paragraphs reacting to others. And so the thing you, I think, were rightly pissed off about was that because, I mean, as a friend, you could expect me to give the clearest and most charitable, possible framing of the thing you did. And not make obvious errors and leave shit out to your disadvantage. No, I wrote you and I should just, can you at least wait till to see how I behave now after the interview? Yeah, but I wasn't criticized. I never thought you were going to soft pedal him going forward. So then what is the argument? So here's the argument. I just thought, I think it's a truly a no-win situation you walked into. Now, I completely understand why it seemed like the right thing to do. And I'd be interested to know that if in retrospect, you think it seems like the right thing to do. It's only a no-win with the people who hated me already. The blue sky crowd. But look at him. Look at the document with him. Yeah, I know. And that's okay. We wear that as a badger of honor. Here's the clearest case for me. So look at the people who have been serving in the first term served in the administration. Like the serious people who were not from Trumpistan, who served-- Like last year? Yeah, McMaster, Milley, McRaven, all the M's. Well, crystal. Yeah. These were serious people with serious reputations to protect. And it was easy to see how they thought they were going to be the adults in the room and prevent bad things from happening and change the man. It changed the presidency in some way. I'm not a candidate, ma'am. No, no, no. I'm a comical and dinner with my-- No, no, no, no. They got me to change the spot. But this is the most extreme case of what you did, which is the argument is it's better to talk to the guy. I mean, if I'm not talking to the guy, you've got some lunatic like Pam Bondi talking to the guy. I said things to him. Trust me. It's Stephen Miller never says. Exactly. So that's the same temptation you felt. I think it's the same temptation of McMaster saying, if I'm not going to do it, you're going to get some true believing lunatic. Get some grifting podcast host who just came in here, you know, whose-- whose Billy is brand in Trumpistan. Right. I'm glad he's talking to the president. Yeah, Finland, who sounds like a very reasonable guy. But I'm glad he had money to the Oval Office. And suddenly the, like, maybe we should deport this guy tomorrow became-- he's an interesting-- I mean, look at it though. I'm not saying you can take the crazy out of the equation. I'm just saying, he's there. He's not going anywhere. You can't isolate him. You can't elevate him. You have to deal with the person who is there who is, you know, the people that you're humanizing him. He's a human. Could I just be up front about that? He is a human with great flaws, which we've all recognized. But it is a human, you have to deal with. And it's better to deal with. There is no there, there, to the other side. The other side is just, no, we go sit at the lunch table and we don't invite him over. It's just silly. OK, so there was one thing that was genuinely confusing about your summary of the dinner, right? Which I could see how-- I can see how-- why you got the backlash. And because there was a very bright, shiny object in what you said that you didn't seem to see, you didn't anticipate it was going to have the effect it had. Which is, when you said, listen, I've met the man behind closed doors. He is not crazy. He's not crazy the way you think. He's not who you think he is, right? I can give you the exact quote, because I wrote it. Yeah, go for it. A crazy person doesn't live in the White House. Right. A person who plays a crazy person on TV lives in the White House. OK, right. And I'm not the only one to have said that. Exactly, but-- so you-- and it's not clear whether they-- the subtext of what you were saying was this is less scary, but the-- to me it is. Right. But the way it landed with your audience or much of your audience is, I'm not sure that's not more scary or more evil. But again, I can read you the exact words. I can't-- it's not my responsibility if I say words and it doesn't register. That's what I'm saying. Because people are too emotional about it, so it doesn't land in. I said a number-- because I just reread it, because you were kind of here. I said a number of times, I'm just reporting this. I get-- and I didn't let him off the hook, even then, with the things I don't like that he does. But I just said, I'm just reporting this. You make of this what you will. What I'm not going to do is lie and say, I met TREC at the White House. I didn't. And I'm fully aware that one of these is an act, if not both. I don't know what goes on in his mind. I mean, plainly, I've said it a million times. I think he has a case of malignant narcissism. If I was doing a Shakespearean drama about this, I would wear a tragedy, always includes the idea that the main character has a tragic flaw. Hamlet couldn't make up his mind. Trump's tragic flaw is he cannot take criticism, which is a terrible flaw in politics. So anytime you hear something that's anything less than flattery, it's going to be a problem. And yet, on this night in private, that was not the case. Now, you know, we can do this. Should I go to the White House? One-- who wouldn't take that offer up, please? It's the way-- it's a private dinner with the president. Just stop it. Secondly, when I come back, should I lie about it? I didn't. As many times as I wouldn't take that. I could not have taken that invitation. Yeah, that's true. So yeah, so that's the thing. It's not-- I completely understand why you went. I mean, it's totally convincing. But I honestly feel like your position is not someone who wants to actually make the country better. Like, someone who just wants to wallow in Trump hate. Well, no, no, no. You know I want to make the country better, and I'm not wallowing in anything. I just-- what I'm seeing is the possibility of that errand backfiring. Right. Well, the way it backfired in your case. I mean, it backfired. Well, talk about the aftermath. I mean, he's now attacking you for having come. Moving my point. Did I never-- never pulled a punch. Never stopped doing my job. There was never a deal on the table that I had. But what was accomplished? Was it anything accomplished? It just seems like a lot of pain. It was-- look, I don't read my social media. So I mean, I know you gave up that, which is-- That's good. --a big part of your life. I was never there. So pain, you know, all I hear is when I go out in public, I walk into a restaurant, and 20 people come up to me and say, thank God for you. And for keeping it down the middle. And for being honest to both sides. No, I know there are people probably sitting in that restaurant thinking, oh, there's the asshole who had dinner with Trump. And I know, in this town, the super-woke show business community, like most of them don't like me for that. Because-- but I don't feel like that is a sophisticated position that I have to respect. Well, that's-- Well, that's not sophisticated. But I mean, I agree. There's no one who should be angry at you for doing that. The fact that you did it is totally understandable. I'm just saying that it was like-- I mean, honestly, this is like a jump ball situation. It's not clear to me what should-- Shoulder could happen here. But my intuition is there's no-- just for me personally, it's completely foreseeable that that would be a failed project. And I would come back-- my accounting of it would be, of course, I was charmed by the guy. He's normal behind closed doors. He's a great host. His vibes were surprisingly good. And communicating all of that, the reason why none of that lands the way you might think is-- Didn't land with you. Land was a lot of other people. Well, I'm going to talk to him about the blowback. Didn't land with the Hollywood community. That's a very small sliver. I promise you. I walk with this face in public. I hear what people say. It landed with a lot of people, even in this woke town. So, you know, and again, it wasn't about the fact that he's charming. It's about the fact that I was able to have a human conversation with them, without the bluster, without the-- how dare you or what we're back to. OK, but how do you think you had a human conversation with them give up the way he's spun the conversation since? No, but he-- first of all, again, we have been in communication. Since then, this is a year later. So, for a year, instead of just trading insults publicly, you know, that thing I have up there with all the insults that he signed of my prize possession. Instead of that, there was a dialogue. Dialogue has always been. And, you know, as long as there's a spark of a chance that you can reach the part of him that's least listening or reasonable or-- I mean, people have done it. He was going to send troops to San Francisco and the mayor talked to him and said, "I'm just holding up a sign." It said, "Fuck Trump." Like, that's doing anything. To me, it's just childish. If you think that is what is the-- Well, I'm not saying you were the good person to-- but Katie Porter held up a sign, "Fuck Trump and people to share." And, you know, and you saw Jasmine Crockett just lost the primary in a Texas. That tells me people are not on that page. They threw her out for a Democrat who's on the page. If let's just work together, do what we can. Do our best with a guy who's not easy to talk to, but not impossible, not impossible, and talking is better. Let's take a-- The other side has absolutely no-- No, no. Okay, but let's take this off your case. And it's a similar case. I mean, there's a slightly different, but this makes the same point for me. When I look at how the business community, like the elite business leaders, like the heads of the most valuable company-- Different case, they were ask users. Yeah, okay, so-- But in their minds, they are telling themselves a story of he's the president of the United States. Of course, I have to go to the White House. Of course, I have to do business with him. I've got a fiduciary duty to my shareholders. I'm going to-- This is an opportunity. If I can sway him even slightly, I should. They have a similar story in their-- No, they don't, because they lied. And they kissed his ass. And I contradicted him when he came up. Okay, but that's the most important part of this. Yes. And that is-- And you should get full credit for speaking truth the power. I've totally conceded at that point. But I'm saying that there's a similar-- this is part of a larger picture of, quote, normalizing a guy who's not normal. He's president, but he is not normal. But he's there. We have to work with the normal-- Exactly. But now you sound like Jeff Bezos, right? Within that purview, right? I'm not to-- Flattery aside. We have no work with the president we've got. Jeff Bezos gave him a documentary. I didn't give him anything. I didn't give him anything except shit. When he said, you know, I'm upset that you made fun of my father and said, my fucking orangutan. And I was like, yeah, I don't apologize for that. That's because that was sat-- That was sat-tire in response to you saying that Obama-- I'm saying when you came back-- Beres is different. --was racist. And when you came back on your show and said, this is not as scary as you thought. He's a different guy than you thought. That's who I opinion. Okay. It's understandable to me that you got pain for that. Again, there's an unfair pain. But is it impossible for the moral confusion about what should be ahead and navigate this moment? That's not my job. And that's-- I made very clear. I was not saying that was my job. I'd say, I'm just-- it was called a book report. I'm just reporting to you what happened. You make of it. And people did not have the agency to do that for themselves. Because it's just too tempting to just hate. I get it. And that's fine. But if you keep raising this point about pain, - I didn't feel allowable. a lot of pain. The people who don't understand this, I don't respect any way. And so they also left the building a long time ago. Those are not the, this is, you know, there's two wings of the Democratic Party, which this race in Texas the other day was absolutely all about. You have the Jasmine Crockett wing, you have the wing that says, "Go, no contact. Go, no contact." This is the beef I had with Jimmy Kimmel. You know, I mean, I didn't follow it. I was very respectful, but I just quoted his wife who went public, saying, you know, she wrote her relatives a letter saying, "Why, you should never vote for Trump and some of them did not." And so, you know, thanksgiving, I'm sorry, we just can't do it. And got very mad at me. She broke up with half her family. Something like that. I mean, this is, again, by her words. I'm not on that page. I'm not in that wing of the Democratic Party that you go, no contact, that you break off contact. It just does not work. It doesn't make sense. It's just pointed. So is there anyone you've talked to on this show or on real time where you regret the contact, where you think that that conversation probably shouldn't have happened? Which contact? Which conversation? I mean, you know, I'm asking, is there anyone who you've brought on, you know, Matt Gates or whoever you've had here? Oh, I see. And what do you think? Yeah, that's probably that serve that guy's purpose in a way that was detrimental and it's not good for you. If I could do it again, I wouldn't do it. Lance Armstrong was pretty boring. But, boy, so boredom is the sin. Okay, I'm talking about that. You know, okay, that's worse. Boredom is worse. I'll grant you, but I'm talking about the fall of the United States. So, you know, no, I mean, I had Lyra Trump here, Laura Trump. I had Charlie Kirk here. I mean, you've talked to some of these people. I talked to Matt Gates. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And you wouldn't? Well, I've talked to some, who have I talked to? So you, back in the day, I met him. You didn't think Charlie Kirk was worth talking to him? No, I would have, no, I wouldn't say that. I'm just, I was just wondering if there's anyone you, if you ever, if this has ever been falsified, this notion that conversations always good. I've, because I've had a few podcasts where people who I wouldn't have conversations with. Yeah. You know, I, I had to the clan. Right. I mean, there's no middle ground there. There's no explaining. Except when somebody gets bad enough, then it suddenly becomes, for Wendy, safe. You wouldn't talk to me. I would not. Right. Okay. No. Yeah. And I did Kanye and wouldn't. Would you, would you, would you, would you speak to Tucker? I, I would have to, because he's too influential. And I, I'm too curious as to my ability to possibly expose what this game is with him, because it can't be that he really thinks this. Did you, did you, what is your assessment of that? I'm, I'm talking about the Jew hate. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. Is it, is it just that everybody has this, not everybody, but so many of the people we just never thought of it, Candace Owens and Kanye and Megan Kelly and lots of these, is it that the Jew hating who is always living right below the service. It's a little like the herpes virus. You know, you get it as a kid, you get chicken box. It lives in your body. It doesn't come out. It cannot come out till you get shingles later in life. And then the Jew hating, just like this. It's the same virus. Is that what it is? Because like the permission that people have in the world today to hate Jews openly is so different than even a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, it just, it's literally like I hated Jews before it was cool. Yeah, in some quarters, you know, Tucker is very, he's a very interesting case because he's, I mean, if you watched, if you watched all these interviews, if you watched, the Nick plan is an interview and I've never seen anything. Did you, did you just read, I just read the, did you watch him with Huckabee? He didn't watch that now. Okay, I read about it. So the Huckabee, so I can read the quote, I have to see him. Yeah. So I, so I don't know if this was brought out in any of the coverage. But the most fascinating thing about that interview from my point of view is that Tucker found in his, in his just die hard commitment to attacking Israel, he found a kind of theology, which it may be well subscribed that I'm just not aware of that puts significant daylight between him and evangelical Christianity or what is generally considered in a fundamental as Christianity in America. He, he attacked Huckabee for defending the Old Testament in any way. So it's like, so in the Old Testament, they can genesis 15, it says that, you know, the Jews should get the land between the Euphrates and the Nile, which is like everything in the Middle East, right? And, and so Tucker said to Huckabee, you mean to tell me you'd be okay with, with Israel conquering Lebanon and Syria and Iraq and, and part of Egypt. Yeah. And, and Huckabee is like, well, they're not intending to do that now. And he said, yeah, but if they did it, would it be okay? And Huckabee said, well, you know, yeah, I mean, it's in the Bible. And so just hung himself on the Bible, but Tucker knew he was, knew he had to do that. He knew he couldn't say, oh, yeah, the Old Testament's bullshit, right? But Tucker was really saying, the Old Testament's bullshit, I'm a believing Christian. I'm a Bible, I'm just as much of a Bible thumpers you, but my theology is different. My theology is pure New Testament. The Old Testament is got genocide in it. It's just insanity. Kill the Amalekites. That's barbarism. This is just, and, but it's from that frame that he can say, I got, I got nothing in common with the Jews. The Jews just killed Christ. I mean, to leave aside the fact that Jesus was Jewish and the diversion Mary was Jewish, all the apostles Jewish, leave that aside. The Jews are just, you know, homicidying Christ killers. And maybe they killed Charlie Kirk. And, and, you know, but it was amazing. It was, I mean, it was either amazingly cynical or, or, you know, I don't know if it was heartfelt. But what was fascinating to me is that he knows his, he's got an audience that is ready to say, fuck the Old Testament, right? And fuck you, Mike Huckabee, and fuck all you evangelicals who care about the Old Testament and Israel. We don't like any of this. It's all Christ's king, and that's all we need to say. And it's America first. I mean, how do you deal? I mean, you're the, you're the mind guy. How do you deal with this sort of cognitive dissonance where, I mean, if you get into the stuff we read about and hear about and podcast and this, it does seem like the world is completely insane and spinning out of control. But in your actual life, I imagine it's quite good. Yeah, that's a very weird, I mean, you didn't, you almost split screens. You almost got burned out of the fire. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Close. Yeah. Close. Like everybody beside you died. Not, not quite died, but you know, many houses close to us burned. Yeah. Right. On three sides of us. Yeah. Wow. Have any been rebuilt? No, no, no, I think they're, I mean, one hasn't even cleaned up. That's another story. But we've since moved. I mean, it was, you know, we're not back there. But that does say something about bureaucracy, democratic government, California. Yeah. Don't you think a year later is a fair amount of dysfunction there? Something should have been, I mean, do you think a functioning society would, but to your original question, I mean, you and I share this. I mean, we spent a lot of time. Yes. Meditate and how fucked up the world is and how this risk mounting. Yes. You know, to terrifying degrees in various ways. And yet our lives are amazingly good. And so there's a very high level of well-being and a very high level of concern for everything. I mean, this is, I always say that people have come up to me at restaurants, Bill, what are we going to do? Yeah. And I'm like, go back and you can have your 800 dollars. I was literally at a party where they were having something. I think it was chicken sticks that were glazed with caviar. And someone said, what are we going to do? I'm like, have another thing glazed the caviar. That's what you do. But what is, as the mind, man, what is your, what should I say to the people who say, what are we going to do instead of being so smart? I mean, we're doing what we can do. I mean, I think there's a connection which should be a connection between personal well-being and public responsibility. I think you and I have a responsibility to try to use our platforms and our connections in whatever good ways we can to make the world a better place. And I think to be purely selfish and to be in a bunker or just eating yet more caviar, that would seem like a moral failure. Is it harder to meditate when there's a lot of shit going on in the world? Is it like, is it harder to clear? No matter what's going on, it's the same level of ease to clear your mind. For me, it's, I mean, honestly, suffering is kind of like a meditation alarm. So when I get anxious or worried whether it's a personal situation or a public one, it's kind of like a mindfulness alarm that goes off. So the place where I can be be more reliably asleep is when everything's fine and I'm just figuring out what I want to eat in this restaurant that I want to feed, so it is easier when shit isn't hitting the fact. No, no, it's easier to be, so when things start to get uncomfortable, then I recognize, okay, it's time to wake up and pay attention. So I mean, again, I'm not the one to talk about meditation, I certainly have tried it, certainly. Listen to you. I mean, after we admit, some people it's harder to have a hard time, so people go easy with it. I've heard it said that the people who can't be hypnotized are the same people who have trouble meditating and I could not be hypnotized and I wanted to be doing a bit for religious, but it didn't happen. Okay, so when you clear your mind, like if there's nothing really troubling in my life, I feel like it's easier and when there's been something very troubling, like I don't even try because I figure, oh my God, I can't, but you know, I got a great idea for you by the way. I thought of this, that I knew you were coming, you know, they have micro-dosing, micro-meditating. Yeah, well, that's a thing. It is a thing, like, yeah, just short, very short moments, I mean, we actually, in my app, well, not moments, my idea is that in meditating, you try to clear your mind of all thoughts, here just like, six items are less, it's like just, you know, a few thoughts can get in, but not most. Well, so, first of all, in some styles of meditation, you're trying to get rid of thoughts, but in what I consider the most important styles, you're actually not, you're just trying to recognize thoughts as they arise, just as like, there's a wider context in which thought is appearing. I've heard you say it a million times. So, so, so, so, thought is not, it seems like the enemy in the beginning, but ultimately, it's not the enemy, and you know, you're not trying to, you know, you wouldn't want to mind without thoughts. You know, you should, you know, you should, you know, you should, you do it, should I do it, should I do it, should I do it, sover? You can do it anyway, anyway, you'll do it. Is this how it's helping her? I, it's, I, it's, I, it's, I, it's, I, it's, we'll know in a minute. Yeah. It's, no, I've heard that, you know, I mean, so, so, real meditation isn't really something you're doing. I mean, like in the beginning, you have to learn, you're, you're, you're, you want to do it, you, you realize this is a thing you, you're not doing, and you're being, now you need to get some instruction, but the instruction really is teaching you how to do less. Of what you're doing in each moment, rather than more, you're not actually adding anything. You're just, you're, so in every moment, you're experiencing something, you're, you're seeing, you're hearing, you're smelling, you're tasting, you're touching, and you're thinking, you're feeling emotions, everything is appearing all by itself. I mean, you're not producing any of this. Your visual field is appearing, you know, your eyes are open, it just appears. You're, you're, you're, you're hearing my voice, you're not, you're not doing anything to hear it. You're, you're, you feel the sensations in your body, and the next thought is just going to appear all on its own. You don't author it before it appears, it just appears. So the, the movie of your life is already playing, right? And when you're meditating, all you're recognizing is this, clearly what's appearing in each moment as it appears without being distracted. So it is, it's simply just non-distraction, and our, our usual state is to be distracted by thought in every moment. Thoughts sort of sneaks up on us, we're identified whether there's kind of a voice in our head, like the voice might, the voice could be saying, what the hell is he talking about? That feels like me, it feels like self, and you didn't see it as a thought, and it just felt like you, but in, in the state of meditation, you have, you've paid close enough attention so that when thoughts appear, they just, you recognize that you're simply the context in which they're appearing, and that is a, I mean, it turns out that's a very, you know, even drug-like, wonderful, peaceful place to be, and, and it is, it's like you're suddenly, you're the screen on which the movie of your life is being played in that moment. No, I mean, I've heard you say that a million times, and, and I feel like it's a little like taking an acid trip, you know, you could describe it a million times, and until you get there, it's, that, that's when you, oh, okay, that's what they meant by that. But you've had, I think, I think people are getting there is, in many moments in their lives, that they're not recognizing, it doesn't become salient for them, it's like, you're constantly losing your sense of self by paying attention to something. Something gets your attention, you're fully locked onto it, and it's only sort of in retrospect that you, you sort of come back to this feeling of self, I mean, you're, like, you're, the, the feeling of self is being interrupted all the time. Meditation is simply the practice of, of being, being able to interrupt it on demand. I mean, you actually can just notice that it's, it's not there. What I'm trying to floor asleep, not meditating, just sleeping. The main thing I go to to remind myself is whatever thoughts are bombarding my head, I just go, well, you know you're not going to care about that in a week, or a month, or a year. Like, it's very, very rare that a thought that's like bombarding my brain is going to be relevant to me in such a short time later. So why, so what the fuck, then why do you, why do you even think about it? No, and that's a very skillful use of thought. I mean, there, there's thoughts that can sort of reframe, it's called cognitive reframing. You just, you think a thought which just sort of unlocks your current emotional reaction. I mean, your, your reacting is though this thing really matters, then you just have this overarching thought of you, you've been in the situation a thousand times, you know that this never matters, two days from now, so now just price that in and, and relax. That's actually, I mean like, like stoic philosophy is a very good source of those kinds of reflections where, I mean, one very useful technique is called a negative visualization where it's like, well, you're suffering some problem, you know, something bad has happened and you're, you're really pissed off or, or sad or, or disappointed, or whatever. And then you think, okay, um, think of all the truly terrible things that haven't happened, that are happening to someone somewhere right now, they haven't happened to me. Think of how much you would pay to get back to right, right where you are now with this measly little thing that you're, you're suffering over, I mean, you, you'd pay everything, like if, like, you, you haven't been diagnosed with cancer today, you haven't, your, your child did not get run over by a car, but like all these things have not happened to you. You're just pissed off about this thing, you would pay everything to get back here to just have this little thing to be pissed off about. If you, if any of those things had happened, um, and so that's just a, that reframing is, can completely unlock your reaction. There's nothing more obnoxious than people who have 99% of everything you could ever want in the world and are obsessed. Cavie are on their chicken thing, which, yeah, that's where you, that's where you jump the shark into something truly awful deep. I mean, that's slightly different, although a cousin of what you're talking about, but people who are just like, I always think of the lean character and succession that you watch that show. Yeah, it's great. You know, Logan Roy, just like he's, he's up there. How long are we going to be circling? You know, they're in their private plane circling. Huh. I mean, it's, I know, but I, that guy is not uncommon in the upper echelons of business. I mean, maybe it's what gets people there. You know, I mean, your ex-boyfriend Elon Musk. I don't know what his situation is and I don't know what your situation is with him. You're, you're, there's no situation, but he's, uh, apparently still attacks me on, I'm not, I feel like he's, you know what I'm saying? I'm not an ex-trump. Yeah. Well, he's very Trump like him. He's, he's, he's, he's very, yeah, very, very, very Trump like him. Right. And again, like someone who is never going to be normal and not a little crazy or a lot crazy, but you kind of have to deal with. Not just because he's the richest man in the world, but, you know, he's got the Tesla thing, he's got the X thing, he, we, we, we got the spacious, he's got the telep, he's, the Tesla fingers and a lot. Yeah. He's got the thing that makes people who can't move, they pick things up. You know, I mean, he's got his fingers and a lot of pies. Let's, I don't think this is a guy we can just cut off. No, but you can give him the critical feedback that, I mean, if, if everyone in his life gave him the critical feedback he deserves, that would be a good thing. I love that you do. Yeah. Do you think he hears it? He hears it, but he's not getting enough of it from, I mean, he's, he's, he's, you know, he's in, he's in. Okay. There's a bubble, you know, but a great question. I've stumbled upon. Yeah. And it's like a capacity of being a totally stone host who never thinks about what I'm going to say. Right. What a great question. If you could have dinner with Elon Musk now, would you do it? I don't think it would go well. No. Come on. No, not me. I mean, it's in a better to be in there and be in the arena. No, no, no, because it's, it's, uh, you have a relationship. Again, this is a, this is a bit of a toss up, but I just think he has behaved like such a sociopath with respect to my relationship with him that it's just, I mean, I've tried, I've had private communication with him. Has not gone well. Just like Trump. Right. But like, you know, the thing about Trump. He said it once. He said, "We don't get about me as I have no permanent enemies." And it's kind of true. Yeah. Well, he's interesting. When you think about it, if you bend the knee, he will accept it. Or just, he just forgets. Or some, you know, I mean, I don't know of Corey Lewin-Dowski. Maybe he did. Maybe they all did. They probably did, in some way. I'm not going to. Well, Elon called him, basically said he was implicated in Epstein's pedophile sex ring. And I was going to bring it in the presidency. And then he still came back and he had dinner with him. Okay. So that's it. You know, like, he just. But I don't think this is. I think this is. That's like the sociopathy land. I mean, these guys are not normal ethical actors. Okay. Because these are. No, they're not. No, they're not. And that's the reality of what we have to work with. Right. So, as a member of the human race, who would like to see it succeed? Uh, if I got a vote, I would say, yes, get Sam in there with Elon Musk. That is somebody. Elon Musk, he may hate you, he may have said horrible things. He still respects you. You know, the history of him. I mean, oh, I don't know. I don't think he's. I don't think he's reachable. I just don't think. I mean, something would have to change in him for him to be reachable by me now. How would you know if you didn't try? Another guy's calling me pure evil on X. I've been off X for three years. And I have 56 pure evil. One's right up on the wall. I can read you where. I mean, that's what they do. They're on the spectrum or whatever they are. They just lash out. And then, that's just it. You're paying too much attention to that. Well, I'm not. I just occasionally hear that this has happened. I mean, it's amazing how much. If once you're off social media, it's amazing how much it is not a thing. But he's. Well, first of all. First of all, he is. Social media. Just bad medium, as we both have. Yeah. I think come to the same conclusion. But meeting in person, having dinner. One of my arguments with the Trump dinner crowd was. You know what the. Maga people hate the most about the left? That they don't respect them. They see them as flyover people. And they're just deplorables. And they're not worth even breaking bread with. We wouldn't have dinner with you. We don't breed the same air as you. That fucking shitty attitude that they have. That really bugs them. I don't blame them. But here's the other side of this. Here's the other side of this. Make you cry your liberal tears. Okay, but here's the other side of this. There is no other side of this. I feel like some of my. Socializing with people who. Either were odious or later turned out to be odious. Corrupted my. Being able to respond in real time to. What they were doing to our culture. I mean, so. As a fan, I didn't see that. Well, so I mean, I've gotten a lot of shit for. Not recognizing. I mean, there's a fairly long list, but. What? Someone like Dave Rubin. For years, I was getting Dave Rubin's hate mail. And I was not. And he was a friend. But he became a fairly unprincipled, you know, full Maga guy who was cutting lots of corners journalistically and just not being an ethical guy. Friend of mine. And I was very slow to. Maybe breaking his tequila. Yeah. I was slow to see it. Gotcha. And I was slow to see it because we had a friendship. Similarly with Joe Rogan. I mean, I think Joe Rogan was a friend. He was somebody who I made many efforts to maintain as a friend. I think he's done a tremendous amount of harm, which I didn't comment on for a long time because he was a friend. And I didn't want. I couldn't figure out how to touch it until I thought, okay, I just have to talk about this. And I, you know, honestly, I don't think he's a friend anymore because I've tried to. To privately engage him and it hasn't worked out. Well, that's on him. Yeah, but I feel like there's something. I mean, you and I have. I mean, we have friends, but we also have a job to do, right? And it's hard to do it if you're just schmoozing with cutoffie, right? Like, I mean, like. There's got to be some limit to who you're going to have dinner with and have that affect your. But it can't be the president of the United States. Well, I think it's Tucker Carlson. I think it's Candace Owens. Okay, but he's in a different category, the president of the United States, the most powerful man in the world. The man who doesn't seem to have any really fixed ideas except tariffs and seems to very often, you know, go by whatever the last person he talked to said. Yeah, that's a person I do want to talk to. In an alternate reality, he was basically like the white OJ. Like, he should have just disappeared, you know, into Florida. It just become totally irrelevant. And we should have all just withdrawn our attention. In this world, perversely, I think you can say of him, he's getting. He's getting more of what he wants than anyone in human history. And it's also possible in 20 years historians will be writing. Nobody else had the balls to knock over Iran and Trump did. And now the Middle East is a much more unstable. I sincerely hope that's the case. I am rooting for him. But I admit that is a possibility. I will. I mean, I can't say I'm optimistic, but I am hoping that that is the case. I'm tipping my mitt or repeating my mitt, depending on when you see this versus the show. But one thing I want to talk about with Iran is Iraq. Nobody talks about the fact that 20 years later, it is a better country. They actually have a parliament. It's actually functioning democracy. No, was it worth all that? I don't know. But you could at least make the case. And I see nobody really wants to touch that subject. No. And if in 20 years or 10 years, maybe I think it would be faster because it's a different population as you pointed out. If Iran was like what Iraq is now. You know, a Muslim country, but not causing problems and have actual elections and so forth. Would that be okay? Would that have been worth it? Well, and then there's Afghanistan where I think the Taliban just brought back slavery. They did. I read that headline too and I laughed out loud. I brought back as if women there haven't been enslaved. I mean, if you are a social justice warrior, and there is any issue on your agenda other than, or at least I should say, above a gender apartheid in the Muslim world, you're just a joke. You're a joke. You cannot be taken seriously. We don't have to show a picture, but picture a woman in a full head-to-toe beekeeper suit, Berka. And then tell me, the people who hate oppression, is there anything about this? Anything, anything at all, that you think might be oppressive. Because I remember hearing that woman on your show. I think she was, yes, mean Mohammed. Maybe it was her name, she was from Toronto, and she described. And she had to wear a naqab. She gave a description of it. That was literally brought it here to my eye. Like how you are erased as a person in every possible way. You can't be heard. You can't really see out of it. You just don't exist. And you're also, people are terrified. I mean, you see people's reaction. I mean, if you're living in the West, in a Berka or a naqab, you see that you're leaving a wake of distress as you walk down the street because people rightly or wrongly associate all kinds of awful things with your situation. And they're just alarmed not to be able to see your face. It's just, if not all cultures are equal. I mean, we have to admit to ourselves that some cultures are better than others. And the fact that the people who consider themselves the most liberal just can look at this and not see it. I mean, what is the mind man's explanation for the human ability to do that? Well, there's kind of a master algorithm, which you actually named earlier, which is a sort of oppressor, oppressed framing of everything, which, if, as long as, that's at the foundation of your morality and your politics. So, so, colonialism, racism, those are the deepest sins that we can admit. Islamophobia. Islamophobia leverages both of those notions. Like, your any, any, I mean, Islamophobia is such a damaging meme because it makes, voicing any concern about human rights or the rights of women and girls in the face of Islamic theocracy seem like bigotry and it gays. And it genuinely seems like to the left, it seems like bigotry. Like, if you're worried, you're worrying about girls who are being, women and girls who are not being educated, being forced to live in, in bags, and they're being beaten or killed when they try to get out of those bags. And your, your response is, this is, it's racist as though that made any sense. It's racist to express that concern. But that is, I mean, it is, I mean, I've had too many of these encounters to, Imagine that this is even a rare software flaw. It's just it's omnipresent on the left and it's it's not going to age well. Well, you know, and if we succeed in Iran, again, I can't say I'm hopeful, but I would love it, even when you picture that aftermath, I mean, just a picture of a kind of a secular sane renaissance, you know, the, you know, with women celebrating in the streets, he'll be very interesting to see the reaction of all the people who oppose this war on moral grounds. I mean, this is just more colonialist awfulness, you know, imperialism. And to be clear, I'm not saying under what long term, whether this will be a success and I'm just saying, I think the revolution will happen from this. I do. I think what Israel is doing right now is taking, trying to, now that there's basically no defense that Iran has, they're trying to take out the kind of thugs that are the ones who shoot the people in the street, they're going after those kind of barriers and those kind. Now, can you do that from the air? I don't know. Right. I just think that people get it that this is the moment and they've had it, mentioned having it your whole life or two generations, I mean, it's been since 1979. Yeah. I mean, I think they've just had it. It's the moment. I think they, I think they will seize it. And I just don't know if there will be a, I do think there will be a revolution and the country will not be in the hands of the people it's been in the hands of the crazy religious fanatics, the unholy marriage that we also suffer a long time in Saudi Arabia between the religious fanatics and the, you know, let's be honest, the fascistic police, the you call it, the revolutionary, whatever you want to call it, those people make common cause. The religious fanatics need the police to keep the people in line. And I think that will fall in Iran, but I don't know. I mean, look, I got off the road last year, I'm really glad I did because of issues just like this that I, I mean, I think, I mean, you're, you're like on the road. You're like, you're in the other road, you're, you went out there, I mean, aren't you a little nervous? It's just like, they can get you from either side is what I thought. I mean, I, they've been very well-behaved audiences and I, you know, obviously I take security seriously. Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I was, I had, I started my tour the day Charlie Kirk was assassinated. I was, that was my first event and, you know, a live nation called us and said, "Hey, if you want to cancel this event, you know, by all means, it's understandable that people are worried." But, no, I mean, it's, you put people through metal detectors, you, you do what you can that's sane and, and, I mean, that's, so he, he, he had security, but he didn't have metal detectors, right? So, like, I was, it was an open-air situation that, you know, I wouldn't put myself in for security reasons. Right. That's, you know. Yeah. A lot of it can be handled by just doing it in a smart way. Yeah. That's true. But, you know, you're one of the few people, I mean, that is an ultimate compliment that if you do get shot, I would not know from which side. Right. That's right. That's true. Right. So, yeah. But, you're enjoying that. Not sure which side I would prefer, but, but, I think the, I think the marksmen are probably better on the right. So, I, I don't know. I'll go with the left on this one. So, you're, but you're enjoying that being on the road? Yeah. I mean, I've done it in a very, actually, you, you may have spent some time this way. I've done it, like, two dates a month. That's exactly. So, I'm just out of town for four days and then, so it's, it's really a nice way to do it. I, four days, are you kidding? Yeah. But, on, side of the, right, morning, back in the night, it depends where it is. Right. Yeah. You know, it depends where it is. And it's like, when you're not really, you're only playing, like where are you playing? I, I see, I hear you. I go to the beacon in New York. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not playing in that situation. You're not playing in that situation.