Sake 101 – What is Sake?

The people of Sakai actually brought me into Sakai. Back in 1989, this place was actually in Genza, on the main drag. The first day was kind of soy sauce, it was miso. To the point where it actually changed my life, New Year's Day 1989. Not just Sakai as a beverage, but all the cultural history. Welcome back and thank you for tuning into another episode of Sakai on Air. The world's first podcast dedicated to expanding the dialogue, surrounding Japan's iconic beverages. Sakai, Shochu and of course Avamori. My name is Cindy and today we're starting a new mini-series, our Sakai one-on-ones. And the first episode is dedicated to what is Sakai. And with me is Arlene Lyons to help discover and en route what Sakai is. Hello, Arlene. Hey Cindy, how are you? I'm very good, I'm glad we are starting with the very, very basics and I'm glad you're helping me because you're doing quite a bit of sessions in Switzerland about exactly this topic, right? Are you yes? So should we just jump in and I'll ask you a couple of questions. Let's start with the very basic. So what is Sakai? Apart from being part of the name of this podcast. Exactly. So you kind of mentioned it earlier. So it's one of Japan's traditional alcoholic drinks and the other two are Shochu and Avamori. And Sakai itself, the word Sakai is sometimes used also just to mean alcohol in general. And so you'll also hear what we're talking about today as Sakai called Nihonshu, where Nihon means Japan, or Seishu, which means a clear alcohol. And people use those words to distinguish Sakai from other types of alcoholic drinks. So for anybody who has never been to Japan, if you order Sakai in Japan, people will look at you and wait for more information. Because you want some alcohol. What kind of alcohol would you like? There's a story about the Irish rugby team when there was the rugby world cup in Japan and they kept going into bars and trying to order Sakai and being given beer or whiskey or-- I didn't know that. That's really interesting. It's all the same. Yeah, it's actually somebody figured it out. So if you're in Japan, you will have to refer to it a little bit more specifically as Nihonshu. So now that we have the very basic, there's obviously a lot of variety, right? There's a huge amount of variety. So even if you only stick to clear Sakai, you'll get a huge range of flavors and aromas. And there's also variations on that process. You can get Sakai that is cloudy. It has some of the rice solids left in it. And even depending on how much solids are in it, the flavor profile will be different. You can have sparkling Sakai's. You can have Sakai's that are aged. And you can have Sakai's that are, for example, not pasteurized. And that gives them that kind of a super fresh, zingy, almost bubbly flavor profile. And so you have all this variety, but it's all Sakai. And to be honest, I think this is exactly why so many of us are in love with this beverage, right? But moving from all the varieties, can you tell us what Sakai actually made of? - So Sakai is basically made from three ingredients, which is water, rice, and kouji. And so the word kouji might be new to some people. Kouji is a grain base, which has been treated with fermented by a fungus. And this is part of the UNESCO registration as an intentional cultural heritage. It is protecting traditional Sakai making using kouji. And so this is a really key part of the Sakai production process. But this list of ingredients is protected by law. And so you cannot call something Sakai if it has ingredients that are not permitted. And in the vast majority of cases, the ingredients will just be water, rice, kouji, and a very small amount of high-strength alcohol, which is used to extract aromas and also to help the Sakai remain stable. - Yeah, and I think it's also worth mentioning when we say we're adding alcohol to Sakai, it's not that we're trying to extend the yield. We're done putting in like 70% of alcohol and then the 30% of the Sakai ingredients. No, it's a legally defined amount of brewers alcohol that can be added to Sakai as early in our Reset and lock in the flavors. So now that we know what Sakai is made of, well, very basic, of course, there's always more to the rabbit hole. So what is Sakai not actually? 'Cause a lot of people get confused with what Sakai is and what it's not. - I think the key point here, and this is something I hear from people who are promoting Sakai overseas a lot, is that people think that Sakai is distilled. They think it's a spirit. And that is the one thing that it is definitely not. And again, the legal definition of Sakai states that it cannot be distilled. And if you distill a Sakai, you end up with a short show, I'm sorry. - And with that, obviously, also the alcohol content is a much lower, right? - It is, it is. And so 14 to 16% is, would be an average value. - Maybe we can do a little comparison. How does Sakai compare to beer and wine? - It's a very interesting comparison. And so you'll see that Sakai is often called rice wine in an attempt to explain it. And promoted alongside wine. It the bottles look like wine bottles. It can be served very successfully in wine glasses. Some Sakai's do much, much better in wine glasses in traditional Sakai serving vessels. And this does help to make it more approachable if you think it's going to be like a wine, but it's really not like a wine. The ingredients obviously are different. The production process is different. And the aromas and the flavors of other Sakai will be very, very different from a wine. - Is there anything that you think Sakai and wine have in common? - And it's a good question. - Try to, it doesn't mean anyways, ask me this real quick. They are similar to a certain extent in the production process. And they can have an overlap in their flavor profiles. So if you get a kind of a quite high acidity Sakai, they can be very, very similar to a white wine. And I think if you're looking for the boldness of a red wine, that can be quite tricky because wine has acids and tannins from the grapes. And because the ingredients to different Sakai just doesn't have that. So I think you will get some Sakai's that are quite similar to white wines, but not to red wines. And then if you compare it to beer, beer contains hops. And they contribute this note of bitterness to the beer that can make it super refreshing. And Sakai also lacks that. And then I think one of the issues you run into, if you have somebody who's very used to wine your beer and they try Sakai, is that there isn't this powerful flavor profile from the acidity, from the tannins, or from the hops. And so they're just like, okay, it doesn't taste like much. It's very mild, they're very muted. And so you have this difficulty in crossing over to Sakai. - So now we're talking about taste and flavor. For someone that never had Sakai before, like how would you describe the taste or flavor of Sakai? - So the big difference in the flavor profile of Sakai compared to wine or compared to beer is umami. And so this is this wonderful sixth taste, which is kind of pure savouriness, which is really dominant in Japanese cooking. And so all three wine-bearing Sakai will have some element of sweetness, so I'll have some element of acidity. But the balance between them is very, very different. Some Sakai's will feel quite low in umami. It will be there, but for example, they could be more sweet. But particularly if you get a Sakai that is made with more of the rice grain. So one where if you look at the polishing number on the bottle that's a larger number, these will be really, really rich in umami. - So you're mentioning polishing ratio, and I think for someone that doesn't know very much about Sakai, they might not realize how Sakai is actually made, and we are going to dedicate. A whole Sakai one or one episode to exactly that topic, but I think at this point it might be helpful to quickly explain that we do have premium Sakai, and we do have table Sakai, and for the premium Sakai actually the polishing rate or how much is removed of the outer layers of the rice, is quite important, and it does influence the style of the Sakai. - No, I highlight this all the time, because if you have a premium Sakai, for these types of Sakai, the polishing percentage must be stated on the label. So again, that's illegal requirements. And it's a number. You can find it on the label. So normally there'll be two numbers, one of them is the alcohol contents, and again, that's probably going to be around 14 to 16%. And this other number will kind of be somewhere between normally 40 and 70. And that tells you how much you need. much of the rice grain was used to make thisake and the reason why that influences the flavor profile is that the proteins which are broken down to become the umami flavor are found on the outside of the rice grain. And so if you have a larger number like 70 or even 60 to some extent definitely 80 like if you get an 80 you will have lots of protein in their full umami. And then if you go down to the smaller numbers so kind of say 50 40 under 40 you'll be left with just the center of the rice grain which contains starches carbohydrates that are broken down into sugars and then the the super sweet ones will be the ones with the smaller polishing number which when you use the center of the rice grain and the ones with the umami profile will be the larger numbers where they've included more of the outside of the rice grain with its protein. So if you also do look at the bottle and you're seeing a percentage number or a number with the percentage sign after it this will reflect to the polishing rate of the rice not to the alcohol content. As we quite often refer to right I never seen a percentage sign with a number on any other beverage that wasn't relating to ABV or alcohol. Absolutely yeah I do think this is a quite confusing part of sake when you suddenly see like oh wow there's a 50 on this this is really high in alcohol. Another reason why people think it's distilled yeah exactly which brings us actually to learn another topic I want to talk to you about it and that it's the common misconceptions and this is and we just talked about one right we talked about the shot glass high volume spirits that we're drinking which is of course not sake. Exactly and so you have this kind of this kind of logic of with Western drinks it's just like this the lower ABV it is so say beer comes in a huge glass the medium ABV say wine comes in a medium glass and then if you were served something in a tiny glass it's going to be a spirit it's going to be high ABV and so you could absolutely understand where this comes from and then sake is this unknown mysterious clear liquid and people have no reference for kind of figuring out how strong it's going to be and to me in Japan like that they'd totally normal despair of sake in these these tiny cups and the purpose seems to be hospitality it's it's kind of you get the chance to refill somebody else's glass they get the chance to refill yours and it's a way to interact and be friendly with each other so it's got actually got nothing to do with the alcohol content. But I think for for me personally as well what I was really surprised when I got into sake is actually all the different flavors of sake although it's obviously only made from rice and we often get this crazy flavors right I had the sake that is very strong in melon or can be very banana-like I think that that to me is is is one of the most magical things about sake and when when I do like a beginner oriented tasting I try and give people an idea of how wide this this variety can be because it like you say really really is and especially when you consider the amount of ingredients you're just like something's going on here they must be adding something it's like no by law they can't be they can't be like putting melon juice in it or whatever and it's it just shows you how skillful the sake brewers are that they start off with this you think of like rice it doesn't have much of a taste of its own and somehow they they're able to coax out some really many different flavors like you're saying you've got you would have a super sweet sake which has notes of tropical fruit and melon and lychee and then on the other end of the spectrum you can have a sake which is has less aroma but much more powerful flavors it's it's tastes like mushrooms it's spicy it's witty there's a huge huge range and I know you'll probably talk about pairing in one of the other sessions but that also makes it fascinating to pair with so then we're talking about all these flavors which clearly cannot just come from a grain of rice where does all these flavors come from yes it's just this is quite mysterious doesn't it and a lot of them a lot of them will come from these actually and so there's a huge variety of yeast strains some of them are very old they were discovered back in the 1900s and some of them are very new so yeah there's certainly a lot more complexity and variety in sake then I think a lot of new sake drinkers or even sometimes seasoned sake drinkers actually expect depending on how the master brewer decides what he would like to make at the end right and we will get into how is sake made in a different episode I know you're back for that so we're gonna not bore everybody in this in this episode but I'm certainly interested to know that from a rice grain we can get all these fruity flavors now in wine often there is a certain kind of set of attributes that make a wine a good wine is there something similar with sake ask a question it's sake should be balanced and that's that's something that people wolf and point to or if you look at the scoring sheets for for sake competition they also they often talk about balance three of faults but like that's the same for wine and then some sake brewers will point out like the range of different components or elements that are in their sake so you you there's there's sweetness in it there is some bitterness in it there is acidity in it there is umami in it and there is obviously the alcohol in it's and it's how do they all come together to give you something that's just really pleasant to drink it's it's not super sweet it's not too acidic it's just has a lovely combination of flavors that's just keep you coming back to it and so I think that's that's particularly key but that seems to be quite personal there's not really a rule set that makes a sake good versus a bat-sack it in no it's it's totally personal and some people will be very heavily on this like sweet and aromatic side of the scale personally I'm not I tend to be more either in the middle or kind of down on the umami end of the scale these are the sake I really like and so it's it's it's just wonderful like I think you meet somebody who likes the same thing as you do and you can happily recommend sake to each other or you meet somebody who likes something totally different and like it's fine we're never going to be like fighting over sake we can just both go our own way and there's plenty for us to enjoy because I think you're 100% there it's really personal and I feel like sometimes I drink very different sake or I like very different sake right now that I might have liked two years ago so there's also a little bit of a roller coaster journey through oh I just discovered something new I'm really into this and then you change you know are you have different foods and again with different foods you might want to drink something differently um so I do think it's much less rule driven than the wine world yeah I don't know a lot about wines that that that that that's that's used to me as well I think also in sake people tend to mark certain sake as beginner friendly and they tend to be the sweet aromatic type maybe not super sweet and aromatic but certainly on that end and they for whatever reason they feel that that's more approachable for people but I think you could also say the same on the other end like say if you have somebody who's coming from beer and who's used to a more savory flavor profile they might be more attracted by a sake on the more savory ends so it's it's it's very much like you say it's it's personal all the way um so this was one definition of of good sake right but then there is actually another definition of good sake and that goes more into the direction of like can sake go off like can I buy a bottle of sake and then it will go bad at some point or how do you know a sake has gone bad it's it's pretty unusual most sake is pasteurized um to to stabilize it before it's it's released from the brewery um some sake is not pasteurized and you that should be handled much much more carefully and that again I think we'll talk about like where to buy your sake and if you have a reputable supplier then you should be able to buy any kind of sake from them with confidence but in terms of like is it is it still in good condition which I think is what we're talking about here um this is where it's really important that it's stored and handled properly um if sake is exposed to ultraviolet light or to heat then it can look quite go off in a in a food sense but it can it can deteriorate and this you can see this either if you look in the bottle you might be able to see some what looks like sediment in it and when you open the bottle you might get a sulfur like smell and those are both signs that the sake is is not in good condition and and has been spoiled at at some point usually when a sake is released from brewery you can expect it to be in its peak condition for about a year and normally there's a shipping date printed on the labels you can see when the sake left the brewery some sake will last for a very long time um years with no problems some of the more delicate the really aromatic ones and you will lose some of that aroma profile over time. And so those are the ones that I would prioritize drinking early, because that's when they're meant to be drunk. And some of the ones like, yeah, they'll just happily mature and like a wine, they will change over time, but it's all good. There's no loss of quality or no loss of kind of positive flavor profile with that. So that really is fantastic news, isn't it? I mean, I'm quite honest, like I often do have saki in my fridge and I do not drink it within the week or the month that I've been told. I do think they keep much longer, but yeah, of course, if you are looking for having it in that perfect condition that the saki bearer intended for you to drink it, then better finish that bottle a bit earlier than later. But with that, we are actually slowly coming to an end of this short saki 101. I know we might have been creating more questions than we answered, as always, but that's the beauty of the saki I call it rabbit hole. And we will have more episodes coming up that will address much more in detail of what we just talked about. So make sure you subscribe to our podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I'm gonna say thank you Arlene for joining me today. - Thank you, city. - We will have you back for our next episode, which will be how is saki mate? So a lot of the stuff we talked about today, where we kind of skipped over a couple of details will be enlightened in our next episode. Of course, as always, as well, if you have any questions and comments, feel free to send them to us at questions at saki on air or find us over at Instagram, Facebook and Twitter, which is now ex at saki on air. We will be back very shortly with more podcasting. Until then, I hope you find a saki that you like. Come fight. - This episode has been made possible with the generous support of the Japan Saki and Shochu Makers Association. Saki on air is produced by export Japan, and our team is Justin Potts, Mio Ota, Cindy Bissig, Sebastian Lwan, John Gottner, Chris Hughes, Rebecca Wilson Ly, Marie Nagata, Christopher Pellegrini, Arlene Lyons, Shusui Mata, and Frank Walter.