Saints beat Exeter to the Prem title

Pibisi podcast on suurin suurin suurin suurin. Klas Uusonin asiakaskolotus. Moi ku, mä kuulutan tän. Tiesit, että Klas Uusonilta löytyy superpallion siistei säilytysyttui meikeille ja koruille. Ja just nyt niistä kaikista saa 30-trassaan alennusta. Sisi sairaan hyvää diili, jala ja vinkikans. Vaikka niinko mulle? Klas Tuson! 5-lifes rugby-unian wikli. Rug-unian wikli, Allian stadium, Twickenham, 8 minuuttu 6, satit eivänneet, premsiis- ja ovan, Northampton ja Champions, Northampton 26, Exeter 17, half the Twickenham turf, Stil Bay, the Glorious June Sunshine, our top team is here. Chris Ashtonematt, Dorson, Sira, Winners, the pair of them. First of all, as it always is, Dors, what a day, the prems final. It's one of the best isn't it? It's never done this when it's not been. It's always lovely. Glorious. It's just. You're looking forward to a reigning one, are you? Oh, Twinnie, that wasps. Covid-19, that's the two. Yeah, that is true. We paid our penance for that, and now we just get sunshine for that. Yeah, that brutal. But it's turned into that type of event where. Okay, predominantly, of course, it was Northampton, the next of fans, but so many rugby fans come to this game. It's a brilliant, brilliant showpiece for the season, for the club game. I think they've definitely stepped it up year to year, and they always want to do something different, and they'll get knocked for. I don't know, getting some announcer from. Well, I was upset, Afton. What, did you not like the halftime? There was nothing. We only had a break at half time. I was expecting motorbikes. Boxing promoter, the strongest brothers. I'm off the stand. That's what we're building. That's your challenge for next year. Prematch great, you want more at half time, do you? I want no Mac Carley, and I want big, pre-mort, pre-half time. Big half time. I think it's a destination for the domestic rugby season in England. If my kids are anything to go by, my son came last year, and my other son was devastated that he wasn't here and was begging me to come to today. Listen, that's how the game is going to grow, is getting the next generation and being more diverse and inclusive. It's happening. I know there weren't motorbikes at half time, but all in all, it's an amazing show. Oh, it's a card game. And here we had Sam Rider. Do we not have. I'm thinking of an England game, Rag and Bone, one half time. You weren't happy with Sam Rider and the anthem, and you were. Anyway, you've always got something. I have. But I think it helps having good competition at the top, isn't it? Thankfully, we had that in the league, because the bottom half really fell away. But having four. Well, we ended up with five teams, and we should have been Bristol really in the two. So we should have been six teams fighting to be here. So you've got to buy tickets, haven't you? You've got to anticipate your team as in with a chance of getting here, which just helps the whole event, and having the mixture of teams. How long will it be until we get the semi-finals here, the playoffs here? Hmm. They need your home. What you're working for. Watch this space. News on that front coming next week. Oh! Watch this space. What are we waiting for? OK, because they've got something on embargo. They're kind of, yeah. OK. But you're in the right ball. So anyway, Ashie, I think what they should do is. Like the. the semi. like the playoffs should be. Twickenham. Or if not. If not Twickenham and neutral venue destination kind of place. That time would be. They don't think they would feel they can sell out to 82,000s. Well, if the time enough works out the final out, they would sell to both of them. I was watching the top 14 semi-finals last night, and that was a full house. In Marseille. But they've had a lot of time to build that up, haven't they? Oh, it looked amazing. It looked like a final. Well, at 70 points. It looked like a ridiculous blowout as well. So much to talk about, as there always is in this game. It was tense. It was. It was nervy, and whether either team were out their best, it was on a knife edge. And it was one of those games where 60 minutes, you thought every decision could be decisive. But you mentioned the makeup of the crowd, Matt. Some Gloucester fans, some Harlequin fans, some Leicester fans, some neutrals, loads of chiefs, loads of Saints. And you got an idea of how many Saints. Was that? I think a lot of barf sent their tickets back. And what I hear, I certainly know, at least 10 barf fans, were like, there is no chance of going to Twickenham, given the heartbreak of the wreck last week. You got an idea about half an hour after the game, because if you're a neutral, you probably go to the bar and get some food. If you're an extra fan, you probably go to the bar. Northampton fans want to see their boys do a lap of one, lift the trophy and all the signings and chucking the boots into the crowd. So you got an idea of how many Saints fans were in, because the only fans remaining 30, 40 minutes after the game were Saints fans and 10,000. 10,000, as you would expect from such a well-supported club. And I suspect there'll be 10,000 back at Franklin's Gardens later. I mean, I think the normal form would be to get on a bus and go back to the Gardens and celebrate at home. So there'll be. You can just imagine getting up the M1 and. That's a cute great golden blackout that flags out the cars and rendezvous instant james. I mean, it could be an amazing evening, yeah. You have to keep updating the big pitch on the side of the stand, don't they? Keep winning it like this. It got to fortune. We're placing that big. Sticker. The 20-14. Yeah, 24. No, it's going to have to be. No, it's the 20-26. But could they be on the way to. The team is the right age profile, isn't it, for the next few years of continuing like this. They've been so good this year. I was going to ask that question to you guys later, but let's do it now because you've teased it, actually. What do you need for a legacy, Dorf? What do you need for a dynasty? How many pots? Is that the same thing? Legacy and dynasty. Yeah, definitely, two on a row. Definitely two on the phones. You've got them on the back to right. Okay, back to back. Was one three in a row, didn't they? Some of it was not. Oh, it was only with one semi-finals in the top team qualified for the final automatics. It's a slightly different system, but was one three in a row? Less than one back to back. Europe's. The bar team of the 90s. That's a good one. That is epoch defining. Sarasons, that's 16, 17, 18, 19 team. So what is that difference? What do you think? Legacy and dynasty? Back to back, I think. I think we can put them together, but I'm sure that someone will be able to give some nuance. Three and four. That's Saris. What's that? It's a minimum. As what? What do you mean? But dynasty. Legacy or dynasty? And they're not the same thing. Well, I've just asked that. No. Dynasty, I don't. Why does that go. Has dynasty got longevity at time? Yes. And legacy has memory. Yeah, I think so. I think this Northampton team. You weigh over. I had the pervert. No, no, I think you're into something. I think this century may already have a legacy. Can we use simpler words? That's the greatest Northampton team of all time. You've anointed them on air five live earlier. I think so. Dynasty is a bit more. Four, five, six, straight. It all be. I think Saris vintage. Three Europe's. Three brems actually. That's dynasty. And then not only six brems in all. Yeah, that's dynasty. And then, you know, caveat here and there, whatever. But that's dynasty S. Yeah. So they're not dynasty, but they're kind of. You want it so you're sat here. In 15 years going. Do you remember that team. That won consistently? Bath in the 90s. Yeah. Dynasty. Dynasty. Done. And they've got a consensus. Through the 2010s legacy. Correct. Yeah, okay. We've got a couple of brems. Two brems, two brems, European cup. Six brems in a row. And a European cup. Six final. See, that's legacy. Yeah. So for these saints, definitely. I think they're already at legacy for the two wins. European finals. European finals. European finals. You know, they are. That last five or so years has been pretty darn good. And within the. That sort of the Northampton history. No one's got close to that. I wouldn't even. When I said that on air, I wasn't even thinking, "Oh, yeah, that's a big shot." Someone give me another era of Northampton rugby. Yeah, the European Champions won one of the games. Yeah, but okay. I mean, that's the only thing that we won of that era. Do we win anything? Yeah. And we've got to a couple of cup finals. Didn't win the league. One Europe. I mean, that's not even close to these guys. Not close. We're going to have to keep these lads together. Right. Which is going to be the problem, isn't it? Because every contract. Tommy Freeman needs a bit more. Henry Pollett needs a bit more. Finnsmith needs a bit more. It's not even those. I think they know above that. It's more archie with parlor needs more. Let's feel more. Henry Pollett needs more. Henry needs more. It's those little ones who go, "Wow, we just can't keep it together." But with the academy they have, they have this constant fan belt of new guys coming in. It isn't so much a problem for them, is it? They've got this. If they keep developing at the rate they are developing, it's not a worry. Which you would think for other teams. -Tämä on tullut. -Kiitoksia. they could be on the cut of the the like bath you might go. They need to win it now or they might not win it for another five six years because what happened been thin leaves for example. Exactly where they haven't got that. They haven't just got the rugby the desperate rugby players in Northampton. Like they've turned Northampton School for boys in basically to the road Academy. Yeah. Whoever if you're half good at rugby in Northampton you go to that skate school and that's going to be competing with the team. Yeah. The Mike public schools. Millfield. Yeah. There's a lot. Yeah. So much together we're going to hear from Henry Pollock who was man of the match. Another big sort of career defining day for Pollock. We're going to hear from Phil Dawson. And we're going to hear from Daffer Jenkins who like so many extra players and it's taking us a fair bit of this podcast probably to mark the heroism of the chiefs who for another week. I mean I've been to the last few games. You think they can't go down that way. It's not a big deal. There they go deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper. Perhaps ran out of steam with 15 to go on that note, the tale of the tape. Freeman and Northampton fly out of the blocks. They're 7-0. Have a kick for 10-0. They turn it down. You guys. Grizzly old pros that you are like hold on 10-0. Get the chiefs looking at the scoreboard. Still that's the you know they had scored to go 14. It's vindicated. But it was just that balance of them doing it the same way and it being final as rugby. And extra to then. With that yourself a scott try to go back to the lead. And then went into the lead when Jenkins scored and you were thinking hold on the chiefs have all the momentum. A couple of big yellow cards in that second. Our first company then. Daff Jenkins huge moment Jenkins yellow because chiefs just turned them over on the floor. Mitchlem is the try. Go back yellow card. Hendy two sucker punches. Vince with lays on a plate for the second one. That's the prem title. So there was a lot of. As great as they a lot of content in that match. Wasn't there hard to know where to start. And even though Saints were not at their vintage best, they would be the first to admit that. They had enough to get the job done despite. Exiters just just they're all of that. Never say die attitude. I think. I was remarkable from extra today. I don't know as a group of individuals don't know where they're where they've gone to even find it. That is brutally tough to do. The three games that they had at the end of the season. And then to win that game. I think that's the first time I've been in the game. Against bath. That was always. For me, that was always going to be an issue. It was always going to be a problem. We've seen it time after time in these semifinal final scenarios, trying to back it up under that intense pressure because it's not. It's not just as easy to say. Oh, let's have a really soft week. Let's go really easy and rest because just mentally. You're tired. Every single day. Wherever you go in. Exeter or Devon, someone's talking about the final. They send in new messages. You're sort of in tickets. It's constant, constant, constant, constant, constant, constant. And then you get here and. You know, for them to put themselves in a position and they rattled Northampton. There's no question. They rattled them. They'd worked them out. They'd. They'd. Picked and targeted a few players. They. They got themselves out of that whole of going seven down. Got to seven five. So they're going to be in the position. They're going to be in the position down. Got to seven five. Started to question. Got into the lead. And all of a sudden you saw Northampton started to backpedal a little bit and they look ragged. So. Exeter. They had their moment. That yellow card for Jenkins is absolutely enormous. Inormous in the context of the game. Everything was. Everything was. I felt like everything was against next to them. Really. Not in the game, necessarily, but I mean the build up. The Sarasons game at home was massive for. There was like a really big moment. Sarasons coming back. Mark McCall finishing. There was a lot of emotional energy that went into the game. Just to get themselves secure in the top four. So that was one. Then they go to bath and do what you just mentioned. And then they're in the final and they really know and expect them to get to the final. And they're on a way yesterday. They're stuck in a bus on the M25 and then they're on the M25. And then they're on the M25. in a game that they didn't have to win. So only lost two on the line games, Bristol and Lester away. I wonder who wins. Sarasons kicking game plan of eight years ago. They have vintage, yeah. Against the Saints game plan. But they will depend on the laws you're playing there, doesn't it? What the break, saying the break down was, but the laws are going to be very different from that era. Like the chieven, the kick and chase, you know, the box kick and chase and guard again. Yeah, you've got the, yeah, the score, two, two, two. Yeah, it's, but I think that Saras team could also, I mean, you got, you guys executed unbelievably as well. When you, you were like pythons when you got in the 22. I think that's where this Saints crop us a step apart. Now everyone is trying to play a bit of rugby, but their connection, the ball players they've got, they're the way they're empowered by their coaches. Sam Vestey's technical coaching, which is next level. I've filled out some amazing head man. So I think they're just doing it a bit better, aren't they? They've got a few ingredients to make them the best at playing catch pass rugby. So to, and to that point, I think an any team, including England, can take a leaf out of that last 20 minutes, where someone, somewhere where it was in the playing squad or it was a message from the side, someone has said, can we just get back to do what Northampton do? Because we've, we've drifted away for however long for whatever reason, but for the next 20 minutes, are we going to lose this game by not playing the game that has got us to this position? This is nonsense. Keep on doing what you're doing. Cut out the 60-40 passes. Do you think there isn't the bank of stats and information? There's no history in this kicking change law. In, there's no, the contest is a 1v1 though. So there isn't that bank of knowledge to go off of if you, we don't have that in the, we're not in the game long enough to understand the impact that it's having on international rugby. And so this is the one that both we're always used to go back to exactly. It's not there. So it's not had the experience of, well, do we play like Saints are playing? Because of this, the kicking law has had such a drastic impact. And it worked so in 2025, it worked so well for England in the 6th Nation, 2026, it didn't, they couldn't win a tap back. Anyway, we're digressing to England, we're going to have loads of England chat through the nation's answer. Well, I'll see answer. Play like I say. I'm saying that England need to find a way because their 2025 style didn't work in 2026 so far. I would say to answer the question. I think because of the influence of Northampton in that in New South, you saw against France, that was a much more Northampton-esque performance and mindset to play than your traditional England that we've seen for however long. So I think all of a sudden it's not just about Northampton now though, is it you've got the extra players, you know, Foe Bozo is going to be going in and championing the cause and so on. I want a piece of that. That's always the England head coach's challenge. How would you tap into the best bits of the club game and bring? Well, look at Poland. Let's take Poland, for example, going to hear from him in a sec. That he's so different. It's Steve has got, he's just got to embrace it and let him do his, can't keep hesitating. Is he a bench player? Is he going to be able to do what you spoke about before the game to be the test match? He's not had the ability to go and do it yet. I'll say and today again, it's been last two weeks, he's been eight, he's started eight. He's been the best player on the pitch two weeks in a row. I think he's going to give him a go at eight and let him do his thing. Well, it's here from Pollock, as you say, as he was mounted in the pre-final. Here he is from Sarah. Five lives, rugby union weekly. Henry Pollock, man of the match, your first pre-tidal. How does it feel? It's the real, yeah, some of you dream of the little kid. This is why you play the game, this is why you enjoy the sport. You're doing for these moments when everyone's eyes on you, the press on you. And yeah, I'm just lucky enough today that the team showed up in the solid eye. How hard was that in that heat? Yeah, it's so hard. We talked about it in the week about the heat being really hard, but we just, you know, we can play with 10, but we know we can pay a speed. And we just tried to push X to the end and they did really well to kind of hold us up. And I'm just happy that we kind of stuck in it for those boys aren't going to be here next year. For the last 18 months, the Northampton debut, the England debut, the British Nudge Lions debut, and now Prem Taita, where's this rate? It's right out there. You know, it's the little kid you dream of these moments. You dream to be a boy playing in a pre-minship final in front of a packed out, tweaking them. Yeah, I'm just delighted. I'm delighted with my performance and the team. And especially the boys that are leaving us, you know, we spoke all year about giving them a good send off, especially Furbank. Like he's been with us on day one through the Academy. And I'm just so proud of the way we showed off for him and also the boys that didn't pay today. And that's a squad effort. But he's lucky enough to put the jersey on and show ourselves. It's a whole squad. Before I let you go, what's the Henry Pollock party like? It's good. It's very good. So yeah, look out. Yeah, Pollock party tonight. He made sure he got the, he was carrying that trophy. Why not? His first Prem, he missed out two years ago. He was playing in the JWC with England. So another big moment in this guy's young career, which 21 has already got a load of big moments. Yeah, I don't know why, but whenever there's a celebration and they have all the, you know, the champion stage or the rest of it and you sort of, there's always a part of me that watches the dynamic of what people are like around the trophy. And and everyone was set and all the rest of it. And then right at the last second, Henry Pollock just ran through the middle and hopped over the front. So he was front and center like right next to the trophy. And then when it was then the, in the start, you know, they then take it to the side and he's underneath the trophy. You know, listen, he's so good for the game. I wasn't like that. I don't like the comparison between me and him. I wasn't like that. You were like that. No, no, no, no, no one is comparing you. No one's comparing you to me. We have. Who made it many times. Okay. Many times. So you did it before the game. So I know it's all you said that you had a personality with the ass glass and stuff. That's a fair enough comparison. No one's saying you are, but I was not bothered. Very different. I would never do that. I would never have gone. I wasn't really that bothered about the trophy. Well, I remember you're a three photo. The famous is in the middle of it. Tell me. No, no, no, I think thought is like in in a round. No, no, no, no, no. You're probably your father. No, it's fat. Yeah. But the two people you can barely make out are Johnny Wilkinson and Martin Johnson. Okay. Wilkinson is at the back like he's one of the support staff who would have no doubt that he would draw to play in the 2003 World Cup win, but he is conspicuous by being inconspicuous. Of that, what you've just said described is a very conscious decision to make. Of course it is. Well, I mean, it's every single time that Northam just got a try. The first person on their shoulders will be Pollock. Okay. You know, he, but it sort of feeds him a little bit. And it feeds his energy to be in the limelight, pumping the crowd out. You know, you know, I laugh and he ran on the pitch and ran out and did a big jump. Footage spring and it fell over. So I already can't do it if you're Steve Hawthor with Pollock this summer. He's a two big big games in knockouts. Danny said on the board a few months back, he might not even take him to South Africa. South Africa is going to be gunning for him. They don't, you know, the Pollock persona. We know as rubbed some Africans out the wrong way. I don't know what it's got to do with them, but they, of course, they can comment on it. What would you do? Bench again, starting flank, starting number eight out the 23. He's got either I think he's out some stage. He's got a play against South Africa. You got to find out because it's a box to tick where the Henry Pollock can start for England. All right. You know, this is the elephant in the room here in the, in the Pollock room. Started one against Ireland, didn't he? I know, I didn't perform. Yeah. Was as a long was non-existent. So there is a box to tick there. Now I'm not saying whether he can or he can't do, but he needs to prove himself. Otherwise, he will be a brilliant bench impact player when the game breaks up and you'll see as you commented there that, you know, getting the ball in the midfield, stepping across him is a bit more space and being really, you know, soon as players start to learn to run off him, that's going to be magic. Can you say that? It's not going to be a rugby doors. Can you run to the edge? You can't run that. You can later in the game. Sure. You're not going to do that in the first 10 minutes against South Africa. You're going to get pummeled. But I want to see him in that environment because I think it's going to be so good. Look how much he's learned in 18 months. That's mad. Where he's found himself in 18 months. So give him the opportunity. Go on, I say, right, this is, it's not going to get any tougher than that. It really isn't semi finals, World Cup finals. He's not going to be any tougher than playing in Joeburg against South Africa. It's just not. It's going to be interesting to see what he does because they've not been in camp, have they? They're only going to get the hungover Monday, maybe mid-morning Monday. Monday's the right off already. Lads have been into the weeks. They're going to fly. They're going to climb a tie. I just don't know if they're going to put them in. You'd be reluctant to play any Saints players? I wouldn't be reluctant. Absolutely. No way, but I'm just trying to put myself in Steve, Steve thinks and he'll want time for them to bed in. I mean, I could be completely wrong. You might just chuck him in, like you say, because that experience is invaluable, isn't it? Go away. I remember John O. I mean, I can't do nothing in the end, but we had the World Cup in New Zealand and he wanted us to go to Napier the year before just to have been a play against the Murray team. and being the thick of it and I can't kind of understand the reason behind it just to get a feel for the place because they are so different and they're New Zealanders different South Africa you haven't been like I this such a special place to go and play and you only get one or twice you only get one or two or goes at them so if you're a player I kind of want the experience I think no matter how it's gonna be hard though is it so many big decisions for both week names the squad Monday will reflect on that on Monday for Tuesday on the pod we record Monday will go at late Monday only Tuesday are you doing three weeks back to back every day you're gonna do it no no telling we've got got in the locker travel Tom English abandoned us for the world for for the Totten Army we'll see what we could do I think a few pods a week greatest out with us in Joe butch be brilliant you're a Liverpool I think that's a Liverpool with us actually is in Liverpool Argentina so sorry I was doing up the goal for this is one for for off the pod but big decisions for both week to make because his fringe players didn't pull up trees in that that game in van last night funny old game but he he's got a really wrestle up how he manages and he wants to continue as he from the six nations but it's been a big old break from the six nations so how much continuity do you have between March and late June so yeah lots for Steve both with the ponder over the coming days and Pollock mentioned it there we're gonna hear from Daff Jenkins Phil Dawson and then we'll call it loads more to come on Monday including reactions to the URC final Lentster winning at a canter in the end and and of course a game George Furbank singled out a few times by Henry Pollock as someone they really wanted to win for we heard from him on the pod the other day didn't we actually and that would you know actually was quite you said there wouldn't have been too much emotion they wouldn't have let it get into the camp too much but that's bound to be a factor when you've got a guy who's such good mate we speak a lot about the fun and the band of brothers to talk to about too much right but I watched Finn Smith he was on the let as he kicked the ball off he actually ran to the other side of the pitch to go on the third firm and yeah which says a lot says a lot doesn't it so I don't think it would have been mentioned in team meetings because it's probably not the place to do it with the guy that's going to be a different call but it's clearly motivation for the players I think you have to be careful in the build up where you focus your motivation so they would have been a judge can't get his head rolling that because because two years ago they actively embraced the last dance thing it became a theme so they made it a point that XYZ relieving particularly Courtney and so and they didn't play well and they didn't they still won yeah yeah yeah but they listen who knows whether it's a motivating factor but I can just tell you from experience when we want it here you know five I think it was was it John O back he those two and someone else from Leicester you know it was their swan song and last game in rugby and you use that as motivation 100% I remember Lawrence after speed all a hurdle week was Leicester Leicester Leicester and that starts to great of it yeah so you're and but but also it if it takes just 1% of your concentration away from your own team because you're it's not it's not necessarily helpful as a squad I think individually if you need it as inspiration then use it but from a squad tactic I don't and maybe Northampton got wrapped up in it a little bit and it was one of the factors of them's stuttering slightly but it would have been emotional because he's he's an influence he's a Northampton you know lad and me and and yeah I was I'm very very pleased for him because it's not it's not an easy thing to do and I'm saying specifically around Northampton and Northampton haven't got a terrific record of long-lasting players being exited well and I thought George handed himself brilliantly in the media individually how he's focused on his game not just a final but how he's focused on his game his teammates the relationships you have with his teammates the coaches the fans he's he's been absolutely magnificent so I'm very very very pleased for him and he got his fairytale finish in a state show Ryan I'll produce a notice that Pollock came down with a George Furbank face mask so they've left to when they've got the trophy safely safely wrapped up right unfortunately for every winner there's got to be a losing team extra we're led manfully and inspiration by their captain Daffgenkins here as was our five lives Rodby Union weekly Daffy Jenkins extra captain huge commiserations how are you feeling right now yeah go ahead but yeah proud of the boys it's the biggest privilege I can have is being in this group and yeah I'm on it to play with unfortunately we're a bit short today but yeah that's the boys that semi-final you played last week was absolutely enormous do you feel that maybe this match today particularly with the heat was a game too far no because we played a lot of big games in a row and we kept doing that emotionally for each other we'll have to look at the game where we ran wrong and yeah come back next season stronger I know it wasn't the result you wanted today but when you consider what happened to ex the chiefs last season where you finish in the league how proud are you of your team yeah extremely proud like I said it's the biggest honour to be within this group and something I don't take for granted there's a special group of boys and hopefully there's more to come from this group commiserations thank you so much you can hear the desolation in his voice just on his yellow card and Kemeny got bin guys so it was a bit of well if that's a yellow that's yellow I'm not sure if there was clear head contact I'm a bit confused I know that that we want players bending at the hips I know we want to avoid head-on head I know head contact is a no no obviously but even if your technique is bad if you don't make head contact that tackle height is still the shoulders in the elite game it did but after the shoulder no Kemeny I think was that I don't know if Jenkins made any head contact it look bad because he's folded for bank and the optics aren't great but if you don't make head contact I don't know how you can be penalised just because you've got your technique a bit wrong ultimately this stuff is judged on outcome I just think Jenkins was quite hard done by it was a yeah a different surprise to come yeah that wasn't yellow for me that but we're not surprised to it it is a little bit of a shame isn't it we knew the game was going to be like that you know that proper being your bonnet I've struggled in yet points so slow that a lot of your excuse in the players for the heat and the conditions and the slippery humid and the slippery ball humid air is he also is that coming into his thinking can you speed the game up when players are weird I just knew the game is going to be like yeah before we sat down I said to us this game it's going to be about him and it was and it shouldn't be we've not mentioned it here which kind of calm down a little bit but I just wanted a bit more speed into it it's funny because the 2021 finally left and that was a 40 points to 38 thriller so I don't think it's the case that he doesn't preside over those kind of games maybe it was and in his defense it's given the alternative is that the players were making a lot of mistakes it was stopped start and loads of scrum was because everyone was looking on all the time but it's his job to get that going to get some pace into the scrum yeah get the same jobs go but there's no I mean what breaks the players to set up and everything stopping people doing tap then I'll do yeah well that was at the start I think it's if to ever and stop for an moment you were talking about wherever you set for Scott and CEO were walking early because they were so spent then it's only so much he could speed the game up if the players are I didn't say it once all right you wanted him just to give a bit more but what I'm been a loop piece are we are we saying that's a sort of you know is that now a player welfare issue that we're managing the tiredness of the players no no no I'm just right the referees managing the title yeah hydration breaks it part of I think I always think part of the beauty of the game is you know who can hang on who's got the bench who's got and fatigue in the game is it's good yeah I agree yeah yeah and it doesn't mean that yeah we want terrible tackles because people are tired and make a mistake they get punished I just think on that occasion Jenkins out of that for me was a rugby incident and it was happening so quickly but you could see how he was you know in that position to make a really good sort of chest hit and then because he got tap tackle from behind he's just he's just furback dropped in front of him and therefore the and that that's got nothing to do with Jenkins there's no one that he is upright which isn't the right way of doing a piece still not making headguards was a lot right Jenkins was quite no he was wanting to hit right I think he was set to make a good head he was okay he was set to make a good head I the way I think he's I think he's dead unlucky he's dead lucky look didn't look great I just don't think you can penalize some of something not looking great that you've got to go there is head contact therefore it's a penalty yellow 20 minute wear-away-wear-wear anyway they struck twice in all times and as I saw often do handy who had the Midas touched two years ago two tries in the two tries in the final but what do you think about wingers wing is with wingers you know you've been both side of the the fence here it's a little bit fashionable isn't it whether the coach likes the winger or not yeah the summer You know, do me the some you're all bit different, but sometimes these wingers have got the one that stands out to me is Dan Luger Who was you know when he played for quins, it was all right But then he just had something a little bit. I don't know just that little special source that when he played for England It was like oh my god. You get yourself in areas that ass unbelievable You never know we're ending. I mean he looks proper awkward. He pops up in some What you're doing there, you know, scoring, scoring down the right then all of a sudden he's down there, you know he's He's like, yeah, I like him. He's like, you've always liked to play a lot, haven't you? Yeah, he's just different and he's always involved in the game Where we don't really get that from money So get him to the game enough Maybe a bit of size money Big his knees, he's carrying a lot of muscle That can get tiring Test match level is hard to get you in the stuff in the game all the time because you are big and strong and physical But if that is your super strength the coaches got to use it in a different way Getting figure out a way to get him more on the ball We're just not seeing enough of him but henday just has a knack of Just got a good rugby brain So now sometimes you see watch a game and a player make a mistake And that can stick with the coach can't it? Right, can't do that and it'll stick with him And that'll be enough for him not to get me. I think does look a bit ungamely It's not a good thing to know But it makes really effective Really effective He's played in killer break, man of the man who two tries, wins it Final word for the Saints boss, here's Phil Dawson Huge congratulations, where are the emotions at half an hour after it? I am very, very joyous A little bit of relief I've got extra excellent The large parts of the game and we have to work incredibly hard I'm so proud of the group and put it all together A third premiership title for North Hampton What will this mean to the top? You can see by the amount of people who are ahead now No harm to must be emptying and the support we get throughout the year has been exceptional and I'm sure there will be a short future ahead tomorrow for hopefully a post parade How happy are you that Alex Mitchell's hamstring can go 70? Yeah, that wasn't ideal but I thought Mitch showed some plus In terms of how he played it obviously a bit rusty But to come back into that white hot intensity and play as well as he did our own press Delight that he got through and vindicated on that decision in terms of bringing him back in You've spoken a lot about this being the 50th week that you guys have been to work as a group Just give me a little bit of a taste of how proud you are You brought on this team, you brought them through the academy, how great are they? It's just a great group of humans and I'm clearly supporting staff and everybody involved It's been a lot of fun this year, I've said it a lot but I mean it in terms of laughter We've had committed and competitive the group by has been excellent So a man they've been brilliant Thank you for your time, thank you very much So Phil Dousen and Misara, we did the whole legacy of the dynasty where this states crop are going Phil Dousen He's also got to say the England job comes his way at some point Do these coaches then go because of what we talked about earlier in this part about the setup at Northampton and what they've got and potentially players like you could be around, you could be talked about as one of the best coaches in the league If you stay for the next 10 years, what's in front of them or would you jump at an England job because he has got to be the next person in line So why didn't Rob Baxter take it? Time in time, yeah It feels a little bit similar, isn't it? What are we? He's onto a great thing He's onto a great thing and Northampton But look at Mark McCall and Rob Baxter, the two preeminent club coaches of this era They stayed, they decided to go with the club game I don't know but I don't know there was ever a time when they would have got firming land offers because Eddie Jones did seven years when the plan was for him to do four I think if the referee have their time again they go ahead with that succession plan post-2019 That was bad time because Stuart was English and tried They thought they, I think at the time they went "got to go" They went "got to go" and they went "forren" Bought success, brought titles, got to a final in 2019 Then it, you know, a couple of tough years Then Steve Bought, we could just won the title with less That did fit the bill of a guy who had a load of international experience with Japan and England Then won a title, that for me at the time, fit the bill Steve Bought was the perfect choice at the time Steve Bought might do one more year, he might do 18 months, he might do two and a half We don't know, so. But all you hope is there is. all you hope for in the R-A-FU door, sorry, is that there is a plan For a Phil Delson, a San Vestian others, not to get to 55-60 What are they, 44-45 at the moment? Get to 16 everyone and go "oh, never quite worked out" But then we're. see. Potentially we have to look at it from. look it through a different lens We're looking it through the R-A-FU lens and the fans' lens and the England lens What do they want? What's motivating them? What's giving them security? What, you know, how do they coach, coach in a club side is a mile away from coach in England The time that you get the type of training, the camaraderie that you can build What spotlight is so much more. The risk, right, isn't it? The risk behind that, the risk. What did you not help at everybody? If. say a year ago or so, we went right. Phil Delson is coming in after the next World Cup, we'll give Steve this period That's the plan, nothing's going to change it Then Steve gives it his best, leaves it seem in a better place, he can plan to where he's going to go next So Steve's all right, England's in a good place because Northampton are getting a. They can put in place to their plan, they can plan for their next coach Phil Delson is comfortable because he does the best here and he's going to go to England Stop not putting everyone in a better spot Well, Dearyne. you know. Instead of this constant pressure pressure. And it's a weird situation that Steve Borthard doesn't have a deal past 27 at the moment He's either got to get a new deal or they've got to say he's not getting a new deal And then you get a weird situation like Ian Foster and the All Blacks Where he gets the World Cup final and is in effect sat When if Jordy Barrett kicks that goal he wins the World Cup and gets sat, which is mad Steve Borthard might want to do another four years If he can have a blinding World Cup in 27, why would you not keep Steve Borthard gone? That's weighing under a problem here, especially Andy Barrett being out the seat now Steve, where's the World Cup? It's amazing, thank you very much mate, you've done an amazing job for English rugby Enjoy your next role, Phil Delson comes in Yeah, why is that a problem? I think the problem is that for some reason that link between club rugby and international rugby Coaching wise has been lost, we talked about the part of the other day If this was the All Blacks, Phil Delson would be in the backroom team He'd been assistant coach You could then get international experience to then step up The problem is if Phil Delson suddenly got the England job he would have no international coaching experience And that would be seen as a risk given he'd be going up against Andy Fowl, Gregor Townsend Guys who were steeped in it Do you think Phil Delson wants to be England's top? And then that's that question is how there's a kind of situation where if you are the King of Northampton like Delson Is the King of Exeter like Baxter is or the King of Sarasas like McCool has been It's a nice life isn't it? It just shouldn't be It's not quite the coach development piece is not quite right in English rugby at the moment When you have pain in the coach's you might not end up coaching their country Whether this year and five years time Phil Delson should coaching them one day If you're winning credit card you're bringing through all these players You should coaching them one day if the system works That's the plan if you're the RFU to make sure that Phil Delson and Sanvesity and other high performing club coaches Do coaching them one day whether it's an assistant coach or as the main man Okay just to slightly change the wording The RFU should be creating an environment that those coaches want to coaching 100% Rather than the RFU saying Oh yeah you're going to be far we're fast tracking you To be in order to boss in an England assistant coach it should be like it is with the all blacks Somebody loves the club game I'm not saying necessarily that's the right or wrong thing I'm just saying coaching your country should be a really really attractive thing A total aspirational any New Zealand coach whether it's Gats Smithy Cot whoever it is Very Hanson Yeah they were all like oh my god this is my dream This is all I want to do whatever I do Remember Wayne Smith coming over to Northampton He came to Northampton because he wanted to be using coaching he wanted to broaden his skills And he wanted to learn about English rugby Handsome with Wales Henry with Wales Exactly there was at was the focus Ever on the once the likes the thought of it bought the go If you're a dot uh Delson where you go Why would a risk The potential of it being a does it me getting sacked in two years and I've got this at the same time Lost but but so that is my point I think the RFU are Look it looks to me that they're looking at it from a the wrong perspective They're not creating an aspirational environment for coaches to go all I want to do As soon as I get into coaching I want that England job Because it's so um but it's so So amazing and of course you get paid well but you get the access, you get the trust, you get the security, you get the confidence of the R, you get everything around you to go, wow this is awesome. Opposed to, I mean look at the last iteration, I'm sure if you're Dowson or you've had conversations with Backstreet over the years, there's got to be a massive reason why he didn't take it. I mean he had plenty of chances to take it. I don't have a lot of chances but if the pathways really worked he would have been involved at some point over the years, in some role. But then as you say choice and he loves his life, lives on the family farm, taking chiefs to seven finals, you know that's a lot to walk away from. It's a fascinating conversation because they're awesome. As we found out from our D.O.R. part and we found out every year when we speak to these guys there's a lot of experience in IP isn't there and a lot of very very bright rugby blokes and particularly in the Saints team we've got Radford going off to coach Scotland, Permanent Leibor, San Best in Field Dowson, two of the best around and they are champions again. Second time in three seasons, if it's not a dynasty they're certainly leaving a legacy. And on that note Dors, Ashley. I still don't understand. Another for coming up Monday loads more to wrap up including you're seeing including the England frauds, a game. We'll see you then. Thanks for downloading Rugby Union Weekly. For more info head to the BBC Sound app. There's this noise that you make. You don't decide to make it. It just comes out. I don't know why that's going either. That everyone makes it the same time. We're going to cheer in! And it makes you feel. I don't know how to say it. We know that feeling. The D.O.R. is being much more sure to become a new team. The FIFA World Cup 2026. On five live in BBC Sound.