Safety & Mitigating Risk for Manufacturers: Across the Yard with Alex Hawkins, Federated Insurance S04EP5

Have you ever had that moment, a customer in front of you looking for answers, and you just want to be sure you're giving them your best? It's not just about making a sale. It's about offering something you trust, something you'd proudly recommend again and again. That's why more dealers are choosing Durabilt windows and doors. They're made in Canada, built for our climate and backed by over 35 years of experience. And when you need support, their team is there every step of the way. Because when reputation is everything, it helps to have a name like Durabilt behind you. Take the next step to grow your business at DurabiltWindows.com. Welcome back to a Crafts the Art. Today's guest is Alex Hawkins from Federated Insurance. And our main topic today is to talk about safety and mitigating risk for manufacturers, which is something that should be part of strategy and business planning. I'm really excited to have you here, Alex, to talk to us today. Fantastic. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here looking forward to discussing what we can do to help the supply build Canada members mitigate risk and help manage their business. So to tell you a little bit about who Federated Insurance is, Federated Insurance is 100% Canadian owned commercial insurance specialist. For manufacturers specifically, they offer customized insurance solutions designed for manufacturers, dedicated advisors who work with you directly, expanded coverage options, flexible payment and deductible options, quick hassle free renewals. They also offer an array of value added services such as dedicated advisors, loss prevention expertise, safety programs and more. So Alex, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? For sure. So my name is Alex. I'm based in Calgary, Alberta, and I work as the underwriting director for Federated Insurance Company of Canada. I have a fellowship chartered insurance professional designation, and I also hold a Canadian risk management designation. I work with Federated Commercial Insurance Specialists who are agents out in the field to help design programs that protect our customers and help them build a more resilient business. Prior to entering insurance, I actually was in education. I really love working in insurance. It's a real privilege to be able to work with business owners, learn about what they do, what's changing in their world, and just bringing my education background into things and helping people understand risk and what they can do to protect themselves from the downside of risk and take advantage of the opportunities that risk also presents. I love it. And you use the word resilience. What are my favorite words? Resilience and business is so big. Oh, it's huge for us. The one question I would like to dive into is how you got involved in the insurance industry? Yeah, absolutely. So I actually come from a education background and one of the, you know, one of my passions is teaching and helping people learn. And one of the great things about the insurance space and especially commercial insurance is that there is so much education that needs to happen. It is, it's a really complex topic. It's not something that, you know, people necessarily like dealing with. And a lot of people don't think about insurance until they need it. But what we always find is that, you know, by the time you need insurance, it might be too late. So I really, really enjoy the aspect of insurance where I get to teach people and help people learn about risk and why it's important to them in their real life. You know, I actually, I love that. I used to work in the insurance industry and not a lot of people find it interesting. But once you actually work in the industry, you start to realize why it's so important and why people actually need it. So a quick question on that because a lot of folks don't realize they need it until something bad happens. And oftentimes it's too late at that point. How do we start shifting that mindset? So that people really are considering or businesses are really considering this as part of their annual strategy planning as well as their risk management piece? For sure. I really think it's important that business owners look at insurance as a partnership and not not just a burden. It's not just a line item cost. It's something that, you know, truly, if you can find an agent that you can collaborate with, find an insurance company that you can collaborate with, you can, you can build a partnership which will help you over the long run, mitigate your total cost of risk. So what are some of the unique risks that manufacturers face in their day to day operations and how can insurance address some of those risks? Yeah. So, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this. And one of them, I think the most unique risks that we see with, you know, manufacturers, wholesalers is just how tough it is to actually get back in business after you have a serious loss. So if you think about it, there's a lot of types of businesses where the business owner can kind of pick up after a big loss, rent another facility, and then continue on. So I imagine like an RV dealership. Like we see those getting sold in parking lots during RV wars, right? Or an accountant, you know, they can move from one office space to another, or even like a drywall contractor. If they're, if the building that their shop is in burns down, they can usually just rent a temporary space in another shop pretty easily. But with manufacturers with the wholesalers, we're finding that this, this really is not true. And there, I think there's kind of two main reasons why it's much harder for, for manufacturers, wholesalers to get back in business quickly after they have a large loss. And I think the first, it's around municipal zoning restrictions. So even if, even if there is temporary space where you could work out of, you might not be able to get an occupancy permit just because some of these businesses tend to have a more like industrial impact. And so the zoning might not align. And then the second reason is really due to the more specialized nature of the equipment that you'll find in a manufacturer, right? So specialized equipment, it's obviously very expensive. And a lot of manufacturers won't have any duplicates. And it's often so specialized that there's nothing locally that could be rented either. So if you think about the example of like a woodworker who's building caponetry, just because they can find a new space to lease maybe in a couple weeks after they've had a fire, it doesn't mean they're back in business because the CNC machine that they need is going to take like seven months to ship from overseas. You know, as you started talking about the moving into a temporary space, I literally started picturing all the equipment that I've seen in manufacturing facilities and some of which are proprietary. They're designed specifically for that, that organization for that manufacturing plant. So how does, how does the insurance work on that in terms of how long does the replacement take? Like what does that process look like should a loss happen? Yeah, for sure. I mean, it starts immediately, right? Because we all know that part of mitigating the loss is helping you get back in business, you know, recovering as fast as you possibly can. And so, you know, as the insurer, we want to work with you to get back in business and get back to doing what you need to do. But from a, from a coverage standpoint, we really, really are advocating that customers look into purchasing a longer period of what's called business interruption. So that business interruption insurance kicks in to replace the profits that you lose because you're not operating. And it also gives you extra expense that you can use, you know, if you, you can find a secondary location to operate out of you can lease a space, but it's more expensive. Or you, you found a CNC at, you know, a competitor shop and they'll rent you some time over night, but it's going to be more expensive. So having a longer period of business interruption insurance is really, really important. And a couple examples, which maybe people have heard about in the news recently, Jasper from the wildfire, you know, this time last year coming up, you know, we're at the 12 month anniversary and there's still a lot of businesses, a lot of houses as well, waiting to be rebuilt. And if the insurance package only has a 12 month period of business interruption, that's really not going to be enough. And when you're dealing with specialized equipment that could take, you know, seven months, a month, even longer, we saw how long I got during COVID. 12 months will go by really, really quickly. So we always advocate to our customers, especially in the manufacturing and wholesale space to purchase a higher number of months of coverage. So these days, we actually offer as long as three years. Wow. That's a long time. But, you know, when you think about being offline and some of that specialized equipment, if you don't have that revenue coming in, so if you don't have that stop loss, then it easily could put you out of business, which nobody wants to see. And we've got enough headwinds facing our industry as it is without, you know, additional delays. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So let's, like, what other unique risks do manufacturers face other than the ones that we've just discussed? Yeah. So I think another one, all of the products that, you know, a manufacturer, a wholesaler in the building supply space, all of the products that they're making that they're selling, they generally form the component of a completed project. They're not like a completed thing in and of itself. Like, think about a manufacturer that's building something like take out boxes that restaurants use. If those boxes are faulty, I mean, the manufacturer just has to replace the boxes. It's not the same thing if you're making products that are going into houses, going into buildings. Let's just think about, you know, hypothetically, we have like a wholesaler and they accidentally sell a bad batch of something like a plumbing valve and it gets installed in a whole bunch of houses. And then a few months later, they start getting reports of leaks. Think about all the steps that have to happen to actually replace those faulty valves, right? You can't just pull out the valve. Now we're talking about taking people out of houses, removing drywall, removing painting, all of those things that it's gonna take to actually fix the problem and make it right. What if it's a roof trust? Like think about all of the things you'd have to undo in a building to fix a roof trust where it was found that the manufacturer didn't meet the specs. So I think it's really important for manufacturers, wholesalers to work with and ensure that understands this and can provide proper coverage for that, exposure through what's called a manufacturer's errors and emissions, which provides coverage to kind of rip out those defective goods and replace them with the correct ones. - You know, I know our listeners can't see my reaction as you were going through that, but I started to think if that actually happened with plumbing materials, the amount of work that would have to go into that. Is this something that we see frequently, or is this a more of a rare occasion, but still can be a costly claim? - Yeah, so fortunately, it's rare, but when it happens, it can be very severe and that's just because you're building or selling a component and that component can go into a lot of places before anyone realizes there's a problem. - That's crazy. Okay, we've talked a lot about equipment, but I think when we talk equipment, a lot of folks picture the machines that are actually doing the work, but there's also the computer component as well. Does federated cover both of those and how do you work with your clients on that? - Yeah, absolutely. So equipment breakdown, it's a huge exposure, obviously for any manufacturer, and some of it's obvious, right? Like you mentioned, you know, the real production machinery that you're using to build things, but some of it is less obvious and can be just as expensive. So think about the electrical panels, the buildings, AC system, buildings, or you know, if you have specialty ventilation, all of those things, and then obviously, as well, all of the computer systems that you use. So those are all insurable. It's really, really important to make sure that you've discussed the values of what you have with your, with your insurance, and not just the value of what it's worth today, but the value of what it would actually cost you to replace it, you know, after a total loss. - Okay. - So I do think there's some steps that a business owner should take to kind of look at their equipment, break down exposure, and figure out, you know, how to mitigate it. And I really think the first one is like, it's important to have a plan in place before something goes wrong. Once something goes wrong, it's too late to plan. So think about it. Like if you're CNC machines down for an extended period of time, do you have a spare? Is there somebody nearby in town that would rent you time on their machine? If you have to replace it from scratch, do you know who to call it, the manufacturer? Like do you have a key contact there? Who could, you know, expedite a replacement or send you parts? If your plan does involve, you know, well, we have a second machine in the back, we can just bring that online and use it. Like have you actually tested it and make sure that it can really handle the work? We certainly have seen our share of claims over the years where the manufacturer was kind of confident that they had a backup machine, but when it came down to it, it didn't pass the test. It couldn't do what they needed it to do. Also, you know, surge protection is huge, especially with anything that's digital, any computers. So just having proper surge protection equipment in place and we actually also recommend bringing in an electrician, like do it annually and they can run a thermal scan of all your panels while they're under load. And this can really help you find problem spots at an early stage. It's like I've had the privilege of kind of walking through a few of our customers shops while they've been having the scan done. And it's quite a moment when you look at the thermal camera and you see, you know, as a single breaker glowing and you realize that, okay, this is about to start on fire. But fortunately, because we're doing this at this step, we can stop it, right? So that is also a value ad service that we do provide through our risk services department. So when, you know, our risk services department visits our policyholders, they'll be able to do a thermal scan of your electrical panels while they're under load from all of your production machinery running. - Oh man, that's like making me paranoid. I have to feel like I have to do that at my house now. (laughing) - For sure. It's, I mean, electrical fires are definitely a growing risk. We see more and more of them as, you know, more and more people rely on, you know, electric batteries. Think about how many batteries you have in your house on your vacuum cleaner or your portable tools, right? They're everywhere. So there's more and more electrical risk for businesses as well. - Well, for sure. And then of course, when you have older buildings that have been retrofitted or maybe not, that might also pose an additional risk. Not that I'm trying to create any paranoia here. It's just all of a sudden I'm starting to process the reality of some of the things that you're seeing. - For sure. - So you have a diverse customer base. You've got small shops, you've got large shops. How do you customize coverage based on the needs from the size of the business? - Yes, so I think one of the advantages we have at Federated because we're a direct writer insurance company. And so what that means is that the agents that represent Federated Insurance, they're directly writing for Federated Insurance. So there's a faster and closer line of communication between the agents in the field that are, you know, working with our business owners as well as the underwriting and claims departments behind the scenes. So this allows us, I think, to really listen to the needs of the customer and it lets the underwriters do a much better job of customizing the coverage so that it's really the right size for the business. One of the things I really, really don't like seeing is a partial claim that's only getting paid up to like a sub-limit, but isn't fully, you know, making the customer whole again. I never like to see that. So if someone has an exposure, we want to make sure that we're giving them the right limit to pay for all of that exposure. But then on the flip side of that, we really don't want to see people paying for limits that are too high and more than their business will ever need, right? So our policies are really modular in that way. So it's really easy to kind of plug in different lines of coverage is needed, right? Property, casualty, commercial auto. If you have it, environmental insurance, cyber insurance, and then even specialty products like bonding or directors and officers insurance. And so that close line of communication is important to customizing those coverages. And we really think too that the policy has a renewal date. It's a 12-1 policy. It has a renewal date. But we like to think of these as living documents and they can be changed as the business needs change. So we're happy to make adjustments like throughout that policy period. It's we totally understand that it's normal for your business to have a peak season, a slow season. So we always try and support our customers by modifying limits up and down throughout the year as needed to reflect the right size limit that's needed for the business. How often would you go through that check-in process to make sure things are correct? Does it once a year? Is it more regularly? Or does it really depend on the business? So I think annually is definitely a minimum. But anytime there's a meaningful business change or a new operation or a new big ticket item that you've purchased, it's important to do that quick pulse check. And we're happy to hear from our customers. And just a quick touch base to say, hey, this is what's changed. And then we can review and we can make changes as needed. I do think that in times of economic uncertainty, such as right now, it's more important than ever. Because if you set your policy limits based on the replacement cost of certain products 10 or 11 months ago, what are the costs if you had to replace those today? They're likely to be very different. So the more costs are changing, the more value I think there is in checking in on those limits and making sure that they're going to be enough. Get material handling equipment from Brent at the rates, time, and terms that work for you. Whatever you need to succeed, Brent delivers. Let us do the heavy lifting. Learn more at brand.ca. And now back to the episode. Thank you for that. So understanding the diversity of our industry, we've got a lot of different products that are manufactured. Obviously, there's wood, concrete steel, just as examples. Are there any unique coverage challenges that you faced because of these different niches within our marketplace? Definitely. So I think it's important for any business that's involved in handling wood products to be aware that wood burns. And it is a substantial fire risk. And every insurance company is aware of that. So businesses that do handle large amounts of wood products. So think lumber yards, general building material dealers, wood product manufacturers, woodworkers, they are going to tend to be a little bit more difficult to ensure that doesn't mean they're not insurable. They absolutely are. But you can expect probably some more questions that might be asked from your insurance company and compared to a business that has concrete products or steel products on hand, probably a bit of a difference in cost as well. We really do think that if you are in the business of handling wood products, the best step you can take is to just have a maculate housekeeping, like just a checklist-based system where your staff is going through regularly, you're doing your cleanup, you're doing your dust control, everything has a place, everything goes back to its place at the end of the day and just keeping the housekeeping really, really well organized. And then if it's possible, we realize it's not always possible, but if it's possible having an approved sprinkler system, like an engineered sprinkler system that's actually going to be able to put out a fire and maintaining it. It's not enough just to have it installed. It actually has to be regular maintenance. regularly checked. When it's needed, you have to make sure that it'll actually do what you need to do. Well, we learned the hard way that you need to check to make sure that your sprinkler systems are actually hooked up to water. So that was a really great important way to kind of resonates with us, to be honest with you. I do want to change gears a little bit. We talked during the pandemic that we talked a lot about crime. There was people who were stealing lumber. They were cutting down trees in the forest. What are some of the crime situations or instances that manufacturers face? Is it external? What are some of the crime areas that manufacturers need to bear aware of? And how do you help them mitigate that risk? There was a time when I think the main crime exposure was that someone would break in and steal the cash. Things have definitely changed since that time. These days, a lot of businesses will have very limited or no cash on hand. But we think that the kind of biggest exposure that is insurable through a crime package is what's called employee dishonesty. So employee dishonesty coverage, it secures the business owner against the risk that employees might steal from the business. And unfortunately, this does happen. It's not specific to manufacturing or wholesaling, but there's certainly not immune from it. So what we all also sometimes see is that it can be small theft over a very, very long period of time by a, unfortunately, by a trusted person. And this can add up to a huge financial loss over that time. So, you know, having proper audit controls, it's really, really important to preventing an employee dishonesty claim. But more recently, we're actually seeing that more and more of our customers, customers, are demanding to see what's called third party employee dishonesty. It's sometimes called a fidelity bond. And we're seeing this more and more with customers that might do work, that involves, you know, supplying shopping malls or office buildings. And what this third party employee dishonesty does is, it's securing the risk that the, you know, our customers employees might steal while they're on site delivering or doing work. And then, kind of the last piece of a crime program that's important, it should include coverage for what's called false pretence, as well as social engineering. So, social engineering would be, you know, someone comes into the shop or calls the shop, and they, you know, using pre-sophisticated techniques could socially engineer your manager, your employee into accepting something that doesn't have proper title, or releasing some product with fraudulent payment. So, and just keep in mind that when I say, you know, false pretence, social engineering, I'm talking about things that are happening in the real world, not necessarily in cyberspace. So, we can probably get into that in a second. Yeah. Yeah, with, within cyberspace, cyber crime is a really important coverage to, to guard against that as well. Well, that's a good segue, because I did want to talk about the cyberspace as well. Oh, great. You know, obviously, cyber risks are top of mind, but I'm not convinced that everyone has coverage for it. You have a better perspective. What are some things that need to be top of mind for manufacturers as we continually to digitally transform? Yeah. So, unfortunately, every single business has a cyber exposure. It doesn't matter what sector you're in, you have a cyber exposure. So, the threats are constantly evolving, and the bad actors are growing more and more sophisticated all the time. We've seen that, you know, even with just a couple really short voice and video clips, these bad actors, they're able to use AI to make these really, really convincing deep fakes, and they can use them to socially engineer your employees or your managers into, you know, granting access or making payments that they shouldn't. It makes it easier than ever to manipulate things like digital invoices, banking information, and so we've definitely seen customers face serious losses due to cyber crime. So, one thing for business owners to be aware of is every insurance company has a different kind of cyber insurance product, and cyber crime is often an endorsement or an addition to that kind of product. So, it's not always included by default. So, it's really, really important to check and, you know, have that conversation. With your insurer, we have a lot of these conversations every single day. You know, trying to make sure that our customers understand that cyber crime is a real exposure, and the good news is it's a very insurable exposure. You can definitely insure it, and you just have to make sure that you're aware and that you've had, you know, that discussion with your insurer. And one thing that a lot of business owners might not be aware of is the privacy risks and the regulatory risks that come around, you know, a cyber breach. So, as a business owner, you hold customer information, and if this information gets breached, there's severe requirements under federal privacy laws. So, complying with these requirements, it's not optional, it's very expensive. And if you don't have cyber liability insurance, it's out of pocket. So, it's really, really important to review your cyber limits. There was a time, you know, five, six years ago where people used to carry $50,000 or $100,000 as a limit, and that's just not adequate. What we found recently these days, if you have a cyber breach, you have to notify all your customers, you have to pay for credit monitoring, there's steps you have to go through, and just those basic requirements could cost you, and this is probably on the low end right now, could cost you $75 per customer. So, think about every customer you have in your database and multiply that by $75, and that's just a starting point of what your cyber liability exposure might be. That is insane. And that number could very quickly add up. You had talked about AI, and even before you brought it up, my concern, as you were talking about the cyber piece, and how is that going to change this realm of cyber attacks? Can you predict it, or what's the concern that you as insurance companies are taking a look at? Yeah, I think the concern for us is that the barrier for entry for these bad actors is getting lower and lower, right? These AI tools become more sophisticated and easier to use. It takes less and less effort for these bad actors to actually use them, right? So, they can target a whole bunch of businesses with not that much effort. So, in the past, there was some real craft that went into constructing a social engineering scheme, but using the AI tools that exist, it's a lot easier to craft an attack that might be able to target pretty effectively. A whole bunch of businesses with just a few button clicks. Well, I have not been excited about AI for a lot of reasons, and it's likely because I know people are going to take advantage of it in a bad way. So, this just might have reinforced my slowness to adopt it, just to be very honest with you here. Yeah, it's important to be aware of what's out there, and that's what, as an insurance company, we're certainly dealing with as well. And we know that our customers have already kind of seen it as, you know, if you're, we've talked to customers that, you know, they open their email in the morning, and they could have dozens of obvious and not obvious social engineering attempts in their inbox. Wow, that's crazy. So, we're talking about cyber incidents, and obviously, environmentally things have been changing. So, we're in this ever evolving world of change. How do you expect the insurance industry to adapt over the next five to 10 years when you talk about the natural disasters like Jasper, and of course, what's going on in the cyber space? So, we're starting to see more lenders that are looking at the insurance protection that their clients have, and they're taking into account the quality and the depth of that protection when they're deciding how much to lend and what those terms are going to be. So, lenders want to have the confidence that their borrowers can actually survive a large loss. And so, more and more, we're seeing that lenders are making things like environmental impairment liability insurance. It's kind of a mouthful, but pollution insurance. They're making that into a core insurance requirement. A few years ago, that was maybe optional. It was limited to businesses that are obviously handling hazardous materials, but we're seeing more and more that a lender just wants to see, no, you need to have a full pollution package. It doesn't really matter what type of business you're in. We just want to make sure that you have a full pollution package just on the off chance that it comes up. And it really wouldn't surprise me to see cyber insurance going that same way in the next couple years. So, lenders really want to know that their customers have the resilience and they'll be able to survive a cyber event. And our perspective kind of working with our customers on this is, you know, we know that the government, lenders, landlords, they can set kind of the floor or the bottom of acceptable insurance coverage, but that doesn't mean it's always enough. So, we really feel strongly that the decision on what insurance to buy and how much it shouldn't be dictated by these people. They're interested in protecting their end of the deal. So, we always work with our customers to make sure that their policies are obviously compliant with those minimum requirements. But we want to make sure that we are always taking the extra step to go above and beyond to protect to the actual amount that's really needed. Finally, kind of the last trend that we're tracking right now, and I sort of hinted at it at the top of our discussion, but it's a shift towards more of a partnership model between insurers and businesses. So, it's a partnership of loss prevention and loss reduction instead of just being reactive to losses. And in the long run, that partnership is what's truly going to reduce the cost of risk for everybody involved. And so, as an example, this might mean proactive cooperation between insurers and businesses. is to do things like hard-in properties against wildfires, or taking steps to provide business owners with early warning alerts about things like an incoming hail storm or high wind. So I think for right now, as a business owner, if you're considering expanding, renovating, moving into a new facility, anything like that, it's really worth checking in with us, checking it with the insurer about kind of new locations that you're looking at. And we're really really happy to have a conversation about, do we think there's flood risk there, do we think there's wildfire risk there? These are the kind of things that once you're moved in, you can't make changes, but until the lease assigned or until the building is purchased, that might affect your decision kind of based on the long-term insurability of that area. - You know, I'm really glad you mentioned the partnership piece because as you were talking and as I reflect back on my time in the insurance world, which was on the health and benefit side, so I feel like I literally just went back to insurance school. Thank you for spending my knowledge base. But I'm really happy to see that there's, there's starting to be that shift in mindset that insurers like working with an insurance company is actually a business partner. They're there to really help you succeed. And I'm really glad that you touched on that because I think that's in a really important element for members to remember that you are there to support them so that when things maybe do go south and you don't want that to happen, but now they have some peace of mind that they've got some coverage and some clear steps on how to move forward. - Yeah, absolutely. - So we've covered off kind of the questions that we wanted to touch based on today. Do you have any final words or anything that we didn't cover that you really just want to get across to our listenership? - Absolutely. So I think that automotive risk is just something that's, it's not often fully considered by people that are working in the manufacturing and wholesaling space. So I do think that intuitively a lot of business owners, they really do understand the obvious things like having a policy against employee cell phone usage or having rules around when employees can use company vehicles for personal use. And they probably have policies around regularly screening the driving record of their employees. But what we found is that a lot of business owners kind of get surprised to find out that some of the vehicles they buy, they'll fall into the definition of regulated commercial heavy autos. And again, you could buy an F-350 without realizing this. But this classification, it comes with an additional kind of regulatory burden and it gets way more complicated if you ever cross a provincial border. So a business, you might accidentally, without meaning it, without knowing it, you might become a federally regulated commercial heavy fleet operator by driving a heavy vehicle across the border. We actually recently had a customer based in Alberta and he drove his F-350 to pick up a small diesel generator from someone who was selling it privately in BC. These days, almost every trim of an F-350 or a 3,500 pickup is over the weight of being classified as a heavy commercial vehicle. And he was using it just the same way he'd used any other vehicle in his fleet, right? It's just another pickup I'm going to drive there and get the generator. He called us because he was pulled over on the roadside by the RCMP and he was getting fined because he's operating a commercial heavy vehicle between provinces and he didn't have the paperwork in place. At Federated, we have all the resources to provide to fleet operators, to help them with driver safety, driver training, but then also with things like regulatory compliance, we have a really, really good risk services department that really understands those kinds of auto regulatory issues involving heavier vehicles and just the rules are different when you're driving for business. So it's really important to just stay in close communication with your insurer, keep up on regulations and make sure you don't have a surprise at a roadside inspection station. - I'm really glad you covered that 'cause I was not aware of it. And we also have a lot of newer business owners who may or may know that that's actually something they need to be concerned about. So I'm glad you touched on that. And obviously encourage our members to reach out to you to connect to ask those questions and obviously go through the process with you 'cause it sounds like you really are there to support them. - For sure, and these are the conversations we'd love to have before something happens. - Of course. So again, the message to our listenership is please be sure to reach out to your insurer. And obviously if you wanna connect with Alex, we are going to post his contact information when we release this podcast. So feel free to reach out to him at Federated Insurance and see how they may be able to support you. Alex, you've been a great guest. I learned a lot from you today. I'm gonna have so many follow up questions. So I'm hoping we can maybe do this again sometime. Maybe in a year from now, just to see how the landscape has changed and see if any practices might need to change at that time. - Yeah, thanks very much. It's been really fun. It's really a privilege. And yeah, happy to come back next time. - Amazing. Thank you so much. - Yeah, thanks so much. - I hope you have an awesome day. - You too. - Okay, take care. (upbeat music)