Sabrina Visram - Taking Risks and Learning From Failures

And maybe this is a hot take, you can't afford to hire the best, right? And so you have to just hire someone that can get the job done at the price point that you're giving them and it may not be the best job. Welcome to the Tip the Skills podcast where we discuss running and growing your law firm. I'm your host, Brem and Roy, president and co-founder of LaRing. Today I am joined by Sabrina, this room. We talked about becoming a lawyer, where the future of personal injury is headed, the importance of having a great team. I hope that you guys enjoy this episode. Sabrina, this room. Hello. I can't believe you're doing this. I can't believe it either. I've been begging you forever. And I've been avoiding you for a long time. You're such a good friend. We don't know if this is going to get on air. It is absolutely going to. I'm not wasting my time. She'd be determined. No. It'll get on air. Just we'll see how much of it. Yes. Tell us all the things that you do. Oh boy. I'll give you the backstory. I joke that I'm not a real lawyer. I tell everyone that. I am. I did pass the bar. You know, I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit. So I do like doing other things. I like to keep it focused, but I like having my hand in a few different things. So I am a partner at a law firm with called VG Logger. We do personal injury and first party property. I own a plaintiff's funding company. And as of about a month ago, I am the Director of Strategic Partnerships at even up. So I'm tapped out. Yeah. It's these three things, but I'm enjoying it and having a blast doing it. You enjoy building businesses particularly. I do. I do. I enjoy the competition that it involves. It's not just competing with others, but it's a competition to yourself. Yeah. You know, I grew up playing tennis. I played collegiate tennis at a D1 school. I think it's always been in me to be competitive. You would really get a tennis? Yeah. It was actually really good. How good? Like, I had a lot of talent, but it was a bit lazy. You know, you don't strike me as someone that's lazy. No. Again, it's very much like, although I was very interested in tennis, but like our coach, we'd have conditioning. It was like three hours practice every day and an hour is conditioning. He'd make us run around this like neighborhood. And I would run and when I got around the corner, I'd walk, still hate running. But he would come with this car because he knew like some of us would be walking. It was like that, but I had a lot of talent. I was top 10 in Florida at one point. I was top 250 in the country. I had a lot of talent, but just didn't put in the effort. But you also, you do like your leisure. I love a great life. I do. And you're always out of town. I love traveling. You know, I love the autonomy of owning your own business. You know, I can't tell you. Sometimes I tell people, I'm like, I wish I could just turn off my phone for a day. Like, I've not turned off my phone for a day in ever. Yeah. It would make me like, hi. I think. Yeah. Which is a problem. Yeah. I leave the office at four and go do whatever and then check emails at night or I can be on vacation. You know, I work from vacation. Yeah. I was in Africa. Like, my parents are born in Africa, and East Africa. And I had just gone back. I think it was last year to like, check with the girls with my mom. And trust me, like, the time to change is a nightmare. But like, I was still like in the mornings and at nights working, but hey, I'm in Africa. You know, so I never turn off. You know, I think people sometimes believe that if you, you can turn off, I don't believe that you can turn off. Is it an employee you can? Yeah. As a business owner, there's no way in hell. I'm sorry. But I think you get other perks. There's pros and cons to both. Right. I'm way happier being in my shoes where I can do what I want when I want, but I can't turn off rather than being like, I'm going to take a week of PTO and go and to each of their own. But for me, I'm cool with this. I'm with you. Yeah. So I grew up in the junior tennis circuit, you know, going national tournaments, then played Division 1 tennis at the University of Pittsburgh. My mom always jokes that, okay, I come from an Indian background, so it's like, you have to be a doctor, you have to be a lawyer. And like, I wasn't smart enough to go to med school. I doubt that. I was not too. You just didn't want to. No, I'm definitely not. You know, I have a younger brother who's very, very smart. I'm not that. I'm gritty. I'm a hustler. But I'm not book smart. Okay. If I'm interested in something, I will figure it out and I will dive in. I'll be smart on that topic, but it has to interest me. So I, she jokes it when she was like, okay, are you playing for law school? I was like, yeah, I'll play to three, and if I don't get in, I don't get in, and I'll figure it out. I got denied it to, actually, I played to four. I think I got denied it to waitlisted one and then got into Nova, which is the one I ended up going to. That was my path. And then after law school, this is also so me. I basically, you know, you have to look for summer internships, right? And I look for someone in internship that just paid the most money. That's how I ended up in PI, because the summer internship paid the most money. So I, and again, it's not, you know, I'm fortunate to come from a good background. It wasn't a need. It was just the desire to like, I do. I think I'm at the point where I enjoy building it more. The money is just an outcome, but I like the challenge. Yeah. I like the challenge. But at that point, yeah, I was always chasing the money. And then worked at a PI firm and then started my own PI firm six months at a law school. That's crazy. And I knew nothing. You know, I, I always joke that I had a role at exit people that I would call every day. And I would rotate so I didn't annoy the hell out of them. And just ask questions, and I made a lot of mistakes. But, you know, I could say I probably lost a lot of money, but I did, I did find. You know what I mean? In the first year, I think I brought in 100 and like it was just over 100 cases. And I would literally every morning, like go on the computer and find like routes of chiropractors and I bring donuts like six chiropractors every morning. That's how I built the cases. Did I know what I was doing on the legal side enough? But again, I had people to call and ask questions, so I figured it out with a lot of mistakes along the way, but I figured it out. So what have you, what have been like the biggest learning lessons? Like if somebody's listening to this and they just started a PI firm, what advice would you give them? Have your people and I won't say the word mentors, but have your people that you can just ask questions too and have enough that you don't annoy the hell out of one person. Don't be scared of asking questions. You don't know what you don't know and it just go. I mean, the best advice I can give people is I learned so much more from the failures. As, you know, everyone says that, but it's true. You know, I, I had a client, it was my biggest client at the time. Year one, the case was probably worth 200, 300 grand. And it's funny now because I own a funding company, but the client wanted funding. And I'm like, hell no, this is so bad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't realize it could be used as a tool and instead I just was like, no, this is so bad. And he left. And so I lost all of that. And that's bad. Like I was settling cases, 10,000 policies, 20,000 policies, but to lose a 200,000 dollar case, pretty shitty because then they fired me. So you learn a lot, so you went the other direction you're like, it's not, it's not bad. I'm just going to go start a funding company. So that was years, that was years later, but you learn so much from the failures, so much more from the things you do wrong and things you do right, because they sting a lot more. So I think if you just keep going, I think I've noticed with people that are super successful, they just keep going, right? Like you will run into things every day that could drown you. And as long as it's not a thing that completely destroys you, if you just keep going, you will figure it out and you will pivot. And then that builds the confidence, right? It builds the confidence that, okay, I can get through hard things, I can do hard things and you just keep moving, put your head down and keep moving. But I think the thing with successful people is not, it's like, they go towards the fear. Yes. Like the fear doesn't stop them. Yes, and I really think that there's like two kinds of people in this world, the people that fear will literally make them press the brakes and then the people that will literally press the pedal would. 100%. I think there's a middle ground of people that haven't had the opportunity to face the risk in the fear, and so they don't even know what they're capable of. I think I've become a lot more confident through building businesses for all these years. Well, yeah, two years ago, you wouldn't even come to the podcast. Yeah. To see. Exactly. Exactly. And when I first started, I'd call my dad every day and be like, you know, I had confidence in myself, but it's still. You don't know what you don't know. My dad would be like, just slow down, so we're going to focus on one thing, you know? So I think if people gave themselves a shot, now I know a lot of people may not have the background. It may not be able to take the risk. That's different. But if you can take the risk if you're young or, you know, if you have the opportunity, whatever it is, I think you should take the risk, because you will build resilience. I do believe that. I don't think it's as black and white as some people have it, some don't. There's definitely. There's definitely two camps, but I think there's a middle ground of people that just haven't given themselves their opportunity to get the confidence. Well, some people just don't need it though. Yeah. Like, some people maybe. But for everyone. But maybe that's a. But also, I think. Yeah, I think you're right. I think there is a camp of people that are probably very comfortable. Yeah. But are they comfortable because they're scared? But see, that would be my argument. Yeah. That they are pressing the brakes because they're scared. Yeah. So I don't even know that there is a middle ground to be honest with you. That's true. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know. I've just never been that way. I've been very. I bet on myself, again, I failed many times, but, you know, I think if you bet on yourself and you just keep pushing, most people give up way too early. They give up and that's why it fails. If you just keep pushing through, you'll figure it out. Totally. So how do you manage these three different roles or. I don't know if roles are the right one for you and what do you mean? So, in the law firm, I am fortunate to have a partner that handles all the litigation stuff and I have an amazing team. I am not so much in the day to day. I'm more on the management side, I'm more on, you know, the tech side in terms of like bringing in different softwares to help the processes, help get things moving, I'm more on the finance side, but I don't deal so much with the day to day. I have an amazing team. So that gives me time. On the funding company, if I'm being completely honest, I'm not like the huge boys, you know, it's not a conglomerate, it's big enough where it works for myself and my investors, but it's not this huge machine that takes up a lot of my time, it runs itself essentially. And then on the even up role, I'm still very much learning. I know you're good friends with Ray. Hello. You know, I'm learning from him on what he's built, the amazing thing that him and his team have built, it is a machine, it is a conglomerate and, you know, it's funny, I joked with him before I came on. I've never really worked for someone. I mean, I did out of law school for a few months, but I joked, I'm not a good employee, but I'm having a lot of fun learning and seeing how they do things and then, you know, hopefully be able to contribute a good way and a big way. So what's your role there? So I'm director of strategic partnerships. So basically any, you know, they've now folded the ambassador program under me. So basically, anyone that we think we can align with in a partnership deal or in an ambassador deal, right, that has influence in the space that believes in the product that now falls under my window. So it's really building that out because that hasn't been there before. So it's me, Ray and the entire team just trying to focus and build that out. Ray, just so you know, she hasn't reached out to me. So just letting you know. I was told not to. I was kidding. I really know. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Ray, now we got to go. I'm kidding. You're really good at building relationships in the space. Would you say that? That was a percent, yes. I think it's probably the most important part of my, I don't want to use the word success of what I've done. I would use the word success. I don't know about that. But you're successful. I think it's the most important part of it. You're so hard on yourself. Yeah, I'm not like that's why you're going to be like super duper successful. No, I just, I just believe in being humble and there's always room to grow. But I think you have tons of room to grow as a friend too harsh. I think people under estimate, under value, what relationships do for you in business. Like I said, I'm not the smartest person in the room, right? I think when I dive into something, I learn it. I obsess about it. I become very smart about it. But I think without the relationships that I've built, I'm nothing, right? Like I met you, you know, how many doors that opened up for me, just knowing you, huh? No, tons. Are you kidding? Every dinner you've invited me to, every outing, like I have met so many people through you, you know, the rays of the world, the gents of the world, the bobs of the world. I mean, there's so many people that just having a relationship where I can text them a question, they answer or you guys inviting me to dinners or the parties or whatever it is, I've met so many people and I think first you have to build a relationship. It depends on who you are and your personality and how you do that. I think men and women have to build relationships in a very different way. I'm very transparent and honest about that. I think as women, sometimes a little bit easier for us on the front end, but harder for us on the back end. Totally. I think for men, it's flipped, but I think it is the only reason why I get cases from people. It's the only reason why we're co-counsel in so many cases is the only reason. Because we have the relationships. Because I have the relationships and they trust me, you know? Not because you're a female. No. I think it got me in the door. I mean, if I'm being honest, but I think having the knowledge base, doing a good job, being friends with these people, showing them that we're competent, there's so many lawyers that are competent, right? There's so many law firms that are competent that can do a good job. Why do they choose you? They have to like you and they have to trust you. And I think I try to do the right thing. I think I try to be honest with everyone. And I think and I hope that shows and that's why we've been able to kind of build what we built. Just trying to do the right thing, handle things the right way, admit when you're wrong and then be friends with people. And you tell me you're the master networker. I think that's what it comes down to. Yes and no though. Really? I know. Well, clearly everyone thinks I'm rude. No, but you were, you were, you know everyone. I know a lot of people, yes. You know everyone. And it's, I absolutely think that it is one of the most important components of running any business. Yeah. Like if I, like I could literally write a book on it. Yeah. Like I don't care what business you're in. If you can get networking down, it's going to, I don't think it's like necessarily like the end all be alike. I'm sure people can be successful without it, but I think it would speed things up. And you have to be authentic in your networking. That's the other thing. Do the things you say you're going to do, if someone attacks you just respond, you know, like just do the little things I think it matters. I mean, be yourself. Yeah. I think that's the thing, right? Like we joke a lot about being like rude or mean, but it's just like we're kidding. Like it's like, we are who we are and I think we're very comfortable. Yeah. Especially in a male dominated space. I think you just have to be really comfortable being the one you are. Women love it. Yeah. They all love it. You know, we are. Yeah. I agree. And that's why you and I get along because we don't put up any sort of facade. It's like, this is what you get. You like it. Good. You don't. Yeah. And we can admit when we're wrong, we can. Totally. You know. We'll be there for you. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. Starting a law firm or starting anything. Go to the networking events. Yeah. Show your face. Yeah. This subject actually comes up quite a bit on the podcast. You know, and I encourage people to go to conferences and the conference world, it's funny because I there are the conference attorneys, right? We see the same people at every conference with damn, they're tight knit. And I know so many attorneys that don't go to these conferences and I feel like not to say they're not successful. They've done great jobs, but I feel like they're out of the loop on so much. I learned so much going to conferences, talking to people, seeing the vendors. I mean, I know it's ridiculous, but like seeing the vendors has taught me so much, like seeing what's out there, talking to people. What are you doing? What are you doing over? You know, it's just like the amount I've learned from the conferences has propelled what our firm and the way I think is I was doing. You just made a great point that I had never thought about. Like if you're a lawyer and you're not part of the conference circuit and it's intimidating to just go to the exhibit hall, go to every single booth, yes, the vendors want to sell you shift. Of course. But I think a lot of vendors are so cool and they will invite you to things they will introduce you to people. And I think it's a really good, very safe, 100% starting part. And then you learn what's coming in our industry and what is there and what's coming that can help you, like, you know, not to bring up even up again, but they were one of the first AI, right? Yeah. Like AI comes and they were there and you learn about now you're seeing others. You learn so much about our space and the direction it's going in and what you should be doing if you're not already doing it just by being there. Yeah. I don't know. Everything I've talked about this before, but like when I first started at conferences and I knew nobody, I would literally every time everybody was in session, I would walk the exhibit hall and I would go talk to every, I don't do that now. Every vendor. Every vendor. That's because every vendor knows you now, but that's a great story. No, I actually don't think so. Really? Because it's been so long now and there are so many new vendors and I just don't have the time to do that. Yeah. So typically recording. Yeah. I haven't done it in a really, really long time, but I even tell my reps like when it's like when it's dead, go meet the other vendors. Vendors help vendors. I mean, actually, you have a lot of referrals from other vendors. Yeah, absolutely. Vendors are great. Just about being a lawyer, like if you want to build a different business outside of law, like there could be synergy there, you know, just relationships matter 100% yeah, 1,000 percent. I agree. Okay. Let's talk about building a team. Okay. When I give advice on building a team, what applies to me today will not apply to the person starting to build a firm today, right? You have. How big is your firm? Right now we're 14 people. Okay. And how big is your funding company? How many employees do you have? Only three. I keep it lean. It's very, you know, we're a lot more the funding people doing. No, it's just separate entities completely. And again, very important people's roles need to be defined. We're in a position now at the firm where we are scaling. So we're looking to hire a litigate, another litigation attorney. So I think by the end of the year will probably be at 16, 17 people, but when you first start, the most real advice I can give you is you can't afford the best. It's just the truth. You can't. I mean, unless you have a backstop or you made money in a different business, right? Unfortunately, we're in the business where it takes two years to make any money. You open up a firm today. Cases are not settling for a year and a half, two years, right? So either you have funds. I mean, it depends on the firm. Some firms are settling cases quicker. If you're a new firm starting today from case inception, yeah, maybe it's the low value stuff is settling, right? And you have to be able to pay yourself. Right. It depends. Now, if you're leaving a large firm and opening up your own and you have cases that you're bringing over, that's a different story. I'm talking about the people that are coming out of law school or, you know, leaving a firm and starting brand new, didn't bring any cases, maybe one or two lower value stuff. Okay. They're out there marketing, right? So they can't hire the best. So then. And maybe this is a hot take. You can't afford to hire the best, right? Okay. And that's what I dealt with for a long time. Right now. I started my firm in 2013. You hire people, they're at, okay, right? And then sometimes you hire people and you think, wow, they know what they're doing. I'll let you come find out that really you don't know what you're doing. So you don't know what that they don't know what they're doing and it's not good. And now I'm, you know, come to the point where you're able to pay people a little bit more and hire the best and I will tell you, there is a hire that we had that changed my entire perspective on hiring and what the bar should be. Now, I don't think you're going to have people in your office that are all like this person, right? This person is salary sure, but she, I'm getting emails from her eight o'clock at night. She's working on weekends. She does everything outside of her job description, right? I don't think a firm is going to have, if you're an employee basis 20 people, 20 of those people. I think the firm would work if you had 20 of those people, right? You also need the people that are willing to work, you know, the nine to five get in, do what they got to do. Get out, right? But what did you learn from listening to podcasts on building a team? What is the, you, you were going to say what you thought was the most important thing about? Well, what I learned from podcasts is an impossible fee. Everyone struggles with it. Everyone from, you know, smaller companies to billion dollar companies, it is a hard, hard thing to do. And I think it is trial and error. That's the, what everyone says, fire, fast, higher, slow, right? Type thing. But when you have that employee, you will know, and when you have that employee, you're going to want to do everything to help them grow and they help your firm grow. So when you get to the point where you can hire that employee, make sure they're happy, make sure you take care of them and they will make the rest of your staff move and drive. Like she is the reason why the rest of our staff work so hard because they want to do right by her. Just like me and my partner want to do right by her, you know what I mean? She controls the, the, the culture of the firm in a lot of ways in terms of like, look, we're fighting for clients, we're doing the right thing, we're on top of our stuff, we respond quickly, we, you know, we, we, we've tried to start to implement like an acknowledgement based system because most of our staff is remote. You know, we've offices in Florida and Texas and we have some staff in Florida, but Texas everyone's remote and so we rely a lot on, bring central on email and so if someone sends your ring or email or something, just acknowledge it, right, you have to be, you have to acknowledge it because we're all remote. And so she's implemented all that in our firm and goes above and beyond and I think we got lucky in hiring her and I don't know how you, how you can like, I think it takes a little bit of luck in a lot of trial and error to find the APUS people. And what I tell my team all the time is APUS employees don't want to work for BIRC leaders. So if you are going to be an A leader, if you're going to be a BIRC leader, you're never going to have the top talent. The only way you're going to have the top talent is if you're an A leader and you're working hard and they see that you care. And you said like it was important to keep her happy, how are you making sure that she is happy? Look, again, we are, she's here in Florida, so she, she comes and goes as she wishes, she's in office quite a bit, but you know she is kids, you need to go to the doctor's appointment, you need to go to the base, we'll just go, right, there's full autonomy with her because I'm getting emails from her at 9 p.m. There's no world in which I'm tracking anything she's doing, right? And there's a level of respect when she talks, we listen, like, and we will sometimes pivot our game plan based on what she says, you know what I mean? And again, that's not going to be everyone in your firm, everyone has a role. But if you can hire those types of people, damn, it makes your life a lot easier. Oh, I know. You have a bunch of those. And it's, it's, when you do, when you hire this first A player that takes ownership and you trust and goes above and beyond and legitimately cares and does things to move the business forward, it's, it's so eye opening because you're like, okay, how do I go and get 10 more of these? Yeah, and it's hard. It's very hard. It's very hard. They're special breed, yeah, and to put up with us, they're special breed, totally, especially, you know, because your partner is super nice. Yes, he is. Yeah. I am lucky in that way. I've got a great partner. I've got a great support to some of just, you know, I know this could be done without any of them. That is for sure. Because otherwise, I have to be in the day to day and it would be a nightmare. Where do you think the industry is going? So this is a fascinating question. Thank you. And I think a lot of us talk about it. And the next guest, the infamous John Eustol, and I became friends over this topic. That's right. Really, John? Yes. I was at a crisp event that you were at, and I was going to say hi to a friend that worked here at the time and John was sitting at the table and I did not know John at the time. I only knew his name, but did not know him. And so he's the table. So I was like, what the hell? I'm going to introduce myself. So I introduced myself to him. And I don't know how one topic got to the next, but we just started talking about where the space is going. And we both agreed that private equity is taken over. I hate to say that. No, I mean, look, they're in everything. Like, you get the dentist? Yes. You go to a hospital? Yes. They are taking over small businesses, whether it's your pest control companies, your pool companies, your dentist, they are coming and they are here already. I know some firms that already have private equity involved. I, you know, it's, if I'm going to be honest, you know, our firm is growing. We are not at the point from being honest and candid where a private equity company would look at us or even, I mean, they wouldn't even stand, we're too small, right? Where it is going. And if you're paying attention to the market is a lot of these law firms are now becoming national law firms, right? Whether it's your ABS's or other things, you are seeing national law firms pop up. And the reason is is because that is attracted to private equity, right? Private equity is a, the math has to pencil for them. And with high volume, the math pencils, right, a firm like ours that's Texas, Florida, the math doesn't pencil. They need to get their return. And so it is coming. How do you prepare for it? I know how you prepare for it. It's easier said than done because look, we haven't done it, right? We're growing. You have to either partner with a firm that is growing, right? Like we know some firms that have done recently and trying to build that national presence or you have to become the national presence. I don't know that you need to be a national firm to be acquired. I think you just have to have brand recognition in a sh*t ton of cases because they're looking at the case value. Yeah, I think what the number that they're looking at, if you're a $100 million firm, which is a big firm, right? Is that enough for them? You know, I mean, I mean, yeah, because private equity buys a small, very small, but they'll roll it up like they'll have like six or seven different firms. Yeah. So maybe that's a strategy that some of these private equities are, let's buy some large branded state firms, but in different states to limit exposure and limit, you know, risk. I mean, based on law changes and stuff, you know, because that's a whole nother thing. The laws are constantly changing in this space and it's getting, if I were a private equity company, I'd want to buy things in different states to diversify, right? You don't want to be all in one in one state, so- Right. Especially because of the law. Law changes. Exactly. What's super interesting to me about they're being outside money coming in and at the same time we're seeing this like crazy shift in technology, right? I think that law firms that don't know how to run a business are going to be the law firms that are no longer an existence five years from now, because it's going to be really hard to compete with the law firms that have a business mindset, right? And if private equity comes in and puts in a COO that can, you know, make things run way smoother, treats intake like a sales team, you know, tracks certain metrics that I mean, I'm shocked most firms don't track. I think that's going to be what's really, that's what's going to impact everything because all of a sudden, if you're more efficient, you're signing up more cases, you have more money to go market. The marketing then becomes more difficult for law firms and the cost for a case becomes higher and higher. And I'm sure you've seen you've been in this space for how long? I mean, the cost for MBA case today is how much more than five years ago. So much ridiculous. Every year it's higher than five years. And I think this is what law firms are not understanding. It's like if people can run better businesses, if then then they're willing to spend more to get a case. And what is private equity's model? It is come in, clean the fat, make it run more efficient. The law firms that do that will be more successful. Again, in software, well, I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about how a lot of a lot of VC firms are now looking at startup founders and who they invest in. Not if they have a large team, they're kind of like, what are you doing wrong? There's so many tools here where you don't have to have so much fat and AI. Your team should, it's how much are you doing with your team with less people utilizing the technology, right? The AI technology. Totally. It shouldn't take 20 people to do the job of five. And if you're a startup founder and you're taking 20 people to do the job of five, why the hell am I investing in you? Because you don't even know how to use tech to your benefit, right? Well, when you talk about A players, right, all in, it's so hard to go and find, if you have 100 employees to find 100 A players, right, 100% but now with AI, if all you need is 10 A players, and those 10 can do the work of 100, it just changes everything. Yes, sure. I actually don't even think about that. Yeah, efficiency is going to matter, margins matter, you know, so, okay, I don't claim to know everything, but I think the people in the space that know what's going on would also the same thing. It's here and it's continuing to come in our direction and it's just going to get bigger. Okay. So let's just back up for a second. In the past five years, and this is, I'm only talking about what I've seen. I have no facts to prove any of this. So many new law firms have come into the space. So many lawyers have started their own PI firm. And at the same time, we've added so many marketing channels, right? So when we look at social media, when we look at local service ads, when we look at OTT, right? So I feel like it's become so diluted like this idea of marketing because you have so many more competitors in this space, and then you have so many more marketing channels. 100% and, you know, I don't know. I will tell you, I learn, I started a firm face in PI that is the only law that I knew. Today, we are doing first party property, so like storm cases and we are looking at other avenues to diversify. Some people might say that's wrong, focus on what you know, push it, et cetera. But I tell you the reason why we diversified is because we see the competition that's happening in PI. It is next level, and I cannot compete with the big boys right now. I cannot. They're spending. You can tell me how much they're spending a month on marketing is ridiculous numbers. I cannot compete. And so for us, the strategy was diversify in other areas that makes sense. Have different states, right? We were only in Florida. Now we're in Texas. I'm looking at some other states. And that's what's working for us. But the competition, especially in PI, is a real thing. And we have felt it, and our strategy was diversify it. Some people might say that's a dumb move, but I don't know, but for us, it's work. I mean, I think any sort of, like, look, when you're in a business, you're investing in your business. You're investing in yourself, right? And I think any sort of investment, the key is to diversify. Right. Like if you go to the stock market, you're like, you're a diverse, I hope you're diversifying, right? You would hope. Right. And I think that's, I think that's a way to go. Yeah. And again, we try things and fail that it, right? We tried, what were those cases where people text you and you can sue them because they texted you incorrectly? TPC? Is it TPC cases? I don't know, but I have a case for you. You know, I don't do that. Clearly, we don't do that because it didn't work for us, but like we try, you know, and we fail that it. But the hurricane, the storm stuff is in our willhouse, and it is, probably by the end of the year, going to be larger than our PI docket. That's great. Yeah. And so again, like we had the conversations beginning, keep trying things, keep going, put your head down. You're going to fail. Keep going. You'll figure it out. You know, the hardest part is just to keep going and figure it out. Don't give up too early. Perfect. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. You did great. I'm so proud of you. Again, we'll see if it gets live. Yes, it will. Okay. We're good. Thank you so much to Sabrina for everything she shared with us today. If you found the story valuable, please share it with someone you want to see succeed. Subscribe so you never miss an episode and leave a five star review. It goes a long way to help others discover the show.