S8 EP4: Cara Delevingne discusses getting sober, engagement rumours, and being Karl Largerfeld's muse

[Music] Hello and welcome back to the Louis Theroux podcast. [Music] Today I'm joined in the studio by Model, Actress and Musician, Cara DeLavine. After being scouted as a teenager, Cara quickly became one of the defining fashion models of the 2010s known for her irreverent personality, sparkling friendship group and distinctive eyebrows, which we talk about in the chat. Throughout this period she walked for virtually every major luxury brand and became the muse of Chanel's iconic designer, Carl Lagerfeld. I don't know that much about fashion, can you already tell? At the height of her modeling career, she transitioned into acting, appearing in films including paper towns and suicide squad. Over the years, Cara has struggled publicly with substance abuse issues. She became sober in 2022, the journey to which Cara speaks about in our chat. Since becoming sober, Cara has embarked on a music career recently releasing singles I forgot and out of my head from her debut album Not Normal, which will be released this summer, and which also deals with her recovery journey. That's sort of the inspiration for her creativity. On the project. I was curious to speak to Cara. Well, as I mentioned, I'm not a huge fashion buff. This surprises you. Nevertheless, it's the case. And I thought, among other things, it would be a chance to explore the world world of oat kouture. Catwalks. I've seen Zoolander one. So I did a bit of research, obviously I did more research than that. But all the questions around what sometimes characterized as both creative, avant-garde, but occasionally overly controlling and maybe even toxic. We get into. We recorded this conversation in June this year at Spotify HQ, the previous evening at Attended Cara's gig in London. So we kick off talking about that. I was right at the back in the VIP area. Maybe even the VVIP area. I was among such personages as Paul McCartney and Woody Harrelson. Even for me, that's Elite Company. I didn't talk to either of them in case you were wondering. Millie was with me and she seemed to want me to go over and maybe even Corollum as future podcast guests. And I was like, you know what? Millie, the cool thing is you've got to find your moment and play it very faunzy. Like you don't want to be going up panting like a fanboy. Anyway, the moment never came. I never found the inn. And at the end, do you remember they left through almost like a little secret hatch at the back, presumably to be bundled into choppers? If either of them wanted to come on the podcast, they. Oh, thank you. Millie said, if either of them want to come on the podcast, the door is open to a conversation. We can't guarantee anything, but your application will be taken seriously. We also ran into some technical issues in the first five minutes or so of the podcast. So apologies for that. There's no video to begin with. It's not my. I'm not taking them hip for that. That's all on Spotify. A quick warning. This conversation contains strong language and references to drugs. All that, as well as much else besides coming up. Did you have a late one? Yeah, I find it very hard to. Flying to the show last night. I enjoyed it very much. Good. Guess who I was standing next to? I don't know. Were you thinking of guessing? Or maybe? Were you standing there for Paul? Yeah. I was going to say Charles DeLavine. That's what I thought. That was my second choice. That's your dad. That is my dad. What was Paul doing there? Because I know Steader and I've worked with Steader for a long time. I'm a very close. I was thinking of a fashion designer. I think Paul and Nancy took a bit of a shine to me. Steader wasn't able to make it last night but they came and it was very sweet. By the way, I enjoyed the show. It must be pressure that when you think you knew you were performing in front of Paul McCartney, that's got to feel a bit like pressure. Yeah, I tried for the London shows to not know who was coming but then people text me so I know my band didn't know. And they found out afterwards and we got it. Not gutted. The show was good but there were issues. Playing under a train track is hard because the vibrations and there's so many wires and so many scents that wires wiggle out very easily. So a lot of the time there was nothing in my ears. I couldn't hear anything. But no one knows because no one knows what the music sounds like. So I could say anything or sing anything I want. No one would know. It's kind of fun. But viewers or listeners, we should make it clear that we were in a venue, I guess it's called Leak Street. Leak Street, yeah. And it was in a railway arch which gives it a kind of cool, industrial feel, almost like a cave. It's like a cave. Like the cavern of Liverpool legend where our friend Paul used to perform. There you go. But I didn't hear any train vibrations but that made me. You wouldn't be able to because it's so loud. But before I go on you can hear it and it's loud. You can feel it too almost. So apparently that's what happens. You accomplished now in many fields and it's also striking that you were twice named a model of the year in the British Fashion Awards 2012, 2014. You were one of the most recognizable figures in fashion if not the most with your signature eyebrows which I'm looking at now. Do you get tired of asking, being asked about those? Less now. It's been a while. It's nice hearing about them. They've missed the attention. Nice to have a signature. I'm always curious about, I'd love to talk about your music but I also want to talk about what kind of brought you to everyone's attention in the first place. You were signed, how were you when you were signed? As a model. 17. 17 is a model. Can you talk a little bit about how it all took off? What was the process? I had been scouted a few times, mostly out at raves which was kind of funny. The first time I was scouted I was 16 but I thought it was so funny that people thought I could be a model because I felt like a feral chocky doll to put it politely. But it happened a few times and then I was at school. I dropped out of school. I was very depressed. My parents said you need to have a job if you're going to leave and I said okay, my sister was at a model agency called Storm. That seemed like the best fit. So I went there and it was not something I had a huge interest in. I didn't have a huge interest in anything at that point apart from music really. But I worked hard. I worked really hard. I did everything I needed to do. I made some great friends along the way and then I got a job and I was like I've made it. This is everything. This is what I can do for my life. Because the idea of making money modeling felt really crazy because people really were not receptive to me. For a long time I was small, really small compared to people. How tall are you? 5, 7 and a half. They'd put on my card 5, 8 or 5, 9. For a model that would be considered small. What would be a typical size for a model? 5, 10. Right. For runway, for sure. So in a way you didn't fit the classical expectation of what you would look like. Yes. But nevertheless you were blowing up. I don't personally think there was anything without striking about me. I didn't know that my eyebrows were very different to anyone else's I guess. But at some point Burberry took notice and they hired me and I'm grateful to this day for that because they yeah, it catapulted something. Was that a big moment? My notes, it's a I was trying to find out what was the moment when you kind of took off like what you know that you actually sort of became we felt like oh this is the coming post like this is the new face that we're excited about. I don't know. I actually have no idea. I've learned it out of it. I think it's when people started comparing me to Kate Moss because I was small and we were at the same agency and they I remember there were articles being like the new Kate Moss which wasn't great because I think I would never could never live up to that to her. Obviously it's a compliment but I didn't they didn't believe it at the time and it was exciting. It was so exciting like I had I had a job and I was so confused and shocked and seeing a billboard of myself and meeting new people and it was incredible. But it definitely didn't feel real and it definitely felt like it was someone else's dream though. Really? A little bit. Why? I didn't want to be known for that. Not in a bad way. I just it wasn't my passion and now I have such an appreciation for fashion but I I really didn't care about that stuff at that point. Creatively it didn't fulfill me and it didn't let me Breathe in a way it felt like it was quite I had to like pause was a part of myself. Like, I was moving and working a lot, but a part of me was stagnant. From the outside world, obviously, to the non-expert, such as myself, the world of fashion, it looks glamorous, looks relatively. And I know it probably isn't, but it looks relatively undemanding. Like, you like. For sure. This is going to sound offensive. No, no. You'd like to just walk up and down. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. So, changing their outfits. And you're obviously in the chair getting made up, really boring. It'll probably early starts, a lot of, like, just boring. Boring. A lot of sitting around, a lot of waiting. People will let you're such a good model, and I was like, "What does that even mean? It's not a skill. It is. It's. There's a skill to it, for sure. I just. It's just going to talk about the skill. Well, knowing angles and lighting and cameras and how to move and how to pose, it's a weird skill. It's not really skill that is needed for anything else. Walking, you can be good and all bad at walking. But it is hard in the way that I also think you're constantly aware of what you look like before the age of social media, even though it was happening during the age and the beginning of social media. You become inherently insecure. You are constantly worried about how you look and what you look like, and that creates just a whole other level of. I've never met people who are more insecure either, not always, but it does breed that. So it's hard mentally. And yes, a lot of sitting around and waiting, and it's not as glamorous as people think. I think a lot of the time you see the pictures when really it's models sitting on the floor, waiting around, smoking, smoking so much. Yeah, Diet Coke's all round. You had a partnership, sort of, a professional relationship with Karl Lagerfeld, becoming his muse for designs for Chanel. Karl said of you. Have you heard what he said? Charlie Chaplin, or then I'm. I've got that one as well. She's not as. I won't do the German accent. Karl Lagerfeld, who kind of. French German, it always sounded like to me, it was a German accent. German? He looks like he's out of Zulander. 100%. He's got the full caricature. He's got, like, a candy floss, like white hair in a ponytail, a collar with three buttons on the front of the collar that looks like a Harry Hill comedy collar. Really long. And then he's got his jackets and then he's got pendants and necklaces round his jackets and dark glasses. And a fingerless gloves. Fingerless gloves and dark glasses. It's almost like, how can I look really sinister and intimidating? Yeah. You look at people in fashion like that and you're like, "Really? That's the guy deciding what looks good." Yeah. He said, "She's not a standout beauty." Yeah. "Vasit Bacon," who said, "There is not beauty without some strangeness in their proportions." Yeah. He was brutally honest, sometimes too much, probably. I think, yeah. But I agree with him. I think he meant it as a compliment. Yeah. But that's what I meant by the Kate Moss thing is that, like, I always said, if I'd been around in the '90s, I wouldn't have been a supermodel. It's because of the time and Instagram and everything else. Because I don't think I stood a chance if we're talking about really, like, superficially beautiful people. I don't think I compared. That's my own opinion. People can have different ones. He went on to say, "She's the Charlie Chaplin." Yeah. Which I love. "Of the fashion world." She's a kind of genius, like, a character out of a silent movie. I would see her better in a silent movie than a talkie because she over-accends the movement. I think at that point I was so expressive. That's what he's saying. I had a hapotox in it. Almost like a Louise Brooks, like, like, the, what's the word, "Damn's all in distress" or the woman in the silent movie who's having to do it all with her movement, have face the movement. Yeah, it was always about slapstick comedy and just movement. Yeah. Girls admire her like they used to do Kate Moss. They all want to be as free as her. Free. Yeah. We were aware of doing something differently. I was and I wasn't aware of this, but in the 90s and 80s and models and everyone was celebrated for their uniqueness. And I think when I started fashion became more like an army line up. Everyone looked the same and was so scared to speak up and like lack of food, lack of energy. Everyone's just very like, I don't know, doing their job, I guess. And I was also doing my job, but I did it in a different way. I was trying to have fun all the time. And again, that came from a lot of sitting around and waiting. I'm not good at that. You know, I meant to be this like very buttoned up beautiful person, but underneath I just want to make funny faces and I don't know. I know I knew it was different for people because people really didn't like it and then people also really liked it. It was confusing. I was, I was Marmite and I liked that. Well, I mean, look, I'm going to make this about me, which is, I've found that the things that have given me whatever success I've had, it's been that I can't do that the things you're supposed to do, like conventional broadcasting stuff. But you make whatever you're perceived, I know it's a cliche, disability is, you make it into your superpower, right? Isn't that the same thing? Yes, it is. That's what you're talking about. The exact same thing. Tramila Jamil said of Karl Lagerfeld, he was a ruthless fat phobic misogynist. I remember, we had a tweet battle about it. Did you? Kind of. It was just after he died. It was like the day after and I just landed in Milan. Okay. And I was so annoyed at her. I was like, just give it a second. Okay. He was a flawed human, like I get it, I understand, he said horrible things about women, but he was a really kind person underneath it. I mean, the fashion industry itself may be inherently misogynistic and fat phobic. But either way, I just think it was rude. We're fine now, obviously. It was a sore point to read that stuff that she read the day after he died. I think I, yeah, it came from a place of emotion and not rational thought. But I love that you had a tweet battle. We did. That feels like the. It went back and forth for a while. The equivalent of a duel, you know, with pistols. How did you take turns? Like, they treat the new treat the day to. No, I don't know. It was like a full rampage. Because we both were writing a lot. She's very sweet and I also think she, you know, someone needs to have an opinion on all these things. How do you decide when the tweet battles over? And who's won? I don't know. It's a really good question. I don't think people win. That's the point. You just have it out. You say, you're peace and I deleted that app. You know who wins? The people running the tech platforms. There you go. Right? Driving the content. Driving engagement. I should have a laugh, because I want to move on. I'm going to move on from Karl Larkfeld and then my eyes dropped on something else. Oh. But it does it. No, come on. OK, fine. 2019, he said, if you don't want your pants pulled about, don't become a model. Join the nunnery. There'll always be a place for you in the convent. Yeah, I miss that. Well, anyway, I've laughed and trivialized it. That's a rough one. If you don't want your pants pulled about, don't become a model. The kindest interpretation you could make is that you just mean that you're going to be fast with. Oh, that's not what you're talking about. I don't think he means-- Exactly, salty. Maybe. It does sound like he might-- Well, what's interesting at that point during fashion, the stuff that was going on in terms of sexual assault was so rampant. That's why it was like-- Really? Yeah, you're going to be fast about with, though. Again, you have to get so used to having so many hands on you that you have no idea who says what and what is where. So-- But did you just say that within the world of fashion sexual assault was rampant at that time? You're going-- Well, I just-- you know, I think I remember going to like test shoots which are photographers. Why would you become a photographer of models, a straight man, unless you have some want to sleep with models, right? I guess. It's a good way in there. OK. I don't know. Maybe they want to do it because they really like taking pictures of women, sure. But-- You can be a straight man and be a professional. And not-- You know what I mean? You can. You can find sleep with models. I would-- I didn't meet one. Really? Not at that point. And this-- I'm talking about young photographers. I'm not talking about older, more established people. Yeah, they would set-- so test shoots, are they send models to do a test shoot, which is just photos for your book. So-- but they would offer girls alcohol, way too young, start being sleazy. I think I was pretty hard headed at that point. So I was like, this isn't OK. I just remember being on a shoot with like two girls who are younger than me. It's 16, 15. And their moms were there. And they were like, OK, we want you to get naked and get in this bathtub together. And I was like, I'm not doing that. But their mom said yes. And I was like, I'm the only one who's over age. And this feels really weird. And I was still-- that photo is somewhere. And it's horrible. It looks like these are like young skinny girls and a bathtub naked being like-- it's just that obviously is not sexual assault. Yeah. There was a lot. It was the age of Terry Richardson. And that was it. Yeah. It was really weird. Terry Richardson was like the New York Times. photographer who loved getting his dick out. He's got his dick out on when he's doing his photoshoots. How quickly were you making a massive, because you'd gone from not having any money, left school 15, your parents are like, well, you can live here, but we're not going to give you a lot of money. You've got to sort yourself out financially. And then suddenly you're making millions a year. No, God no, that took a while, because high fashion doesn't pay a lot. Right. It's the catalog, it's the more commercial fast fashion, I guess you make more money from high fashion, you're lucky to do it. Unless you do perfume, that pays the most for some reason. You'd buy in the scenes, there was a substance, substance issues. Can we see? Yeah, yeah. The whole time. No, not the whole time I wasn't doing drugs all the time, but my relationship with them was the problem. Yeah, they were my best friend, they were my support. They were the thing that I could control my emotions with. I thought, you know, they kept me going, they soothed me when I was alone, I hated being alone. It was all of those things, my relationship with them was the problem. And it was like that thing of like I can work so hard. And then that's my like celebration, you know, instead of working for so long or doing a film for a period of time and having a week off, the week wouldn't be a holiday and rest, it would be benders caning it, which isn't nice for the body or mind, I suppose. Which can be fun, right? And then isn't sustainable indefinitely. Is part of it getting through fashion shows or could you do those so? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that wasn't the problem. I did the mostly sober. I remember I did, I think it was the biggest time and I was opening a bunch of shows, opening shows, like walking out first. Topshop was one of them. It was a bunch of different shows, Fabri, yeah, in London Fashion Week and I had not slept and I had to go and do like three shows that day. I remember opening topshop and I was walking like a snake almost like waving but people thought it was on purpose but it's because I couldn't walk properly. What were you, had you been taking? Probably ketamine, cocaine, alcohol, I imagine. I read that your alcohol's not really your, was never really your thing? No, it was always there. I just wasn't what I like. I wouldn't, I wouldn't drink and not do drugs. I would, I, for a long period of time, I only did drugs. I didn't drink at all. I don't know why. I just didn't like it. Ah, the hangovers. Because I'd never got, I think in my 20s, I didn't, I never came down. I always felt like, you know, I was just working and partying and it was fine. But alcohol, like the feeling of being hungover, absolutely not. This spinning, of that, couldn't handle that. It also felt too out of control feeling, even though ketamine is being an okay, or it was pretty out of control, I would say. Well, I've never taken ketamine. I don't know if I'm embarrassed to say that. No, what's it like? It's a horse tranquilizer. It's a tranquilizer in general because you can get, given ketamine in the hospital. Okay. Not just for horses. No, I remember being sold like rhino ketamine, but it wasn't really rhino ketamine. It's just how people sold it. But yeah, and when I first started doing it too, I would do like, if anyone who takes ketamine, has taken drugs, knows, you do a tiny bit of ketamine and that's enough, but I would be doing like really, really long big lines because I just wanted to disappear, not like have a little bit and feel weird. I wanted to just completely lose consciousness, tranquilize myself, I suppose. My tolerance was so high with that stuff. To the point where I would go to a party and I'd give some to like, you know, a six foot five man and he'd be flawed by doing a tiny amount compared to what I was doing, which is scary. Which is always the same man or it could be a different man. Any man. Like a big guy would be like, that's a lot, you know, I'll have that much and I was like, no way this will knock you out. And it was kind of that provado thing. He's like, if you can handle it, I can. I was like, you do some of that and you'll be on the floor and it was true every time. Which I was at that point, it was a bit like, oh, I'm so hardcore. It was probably very scary for people. Did you think this is what we do in our peer group? Like, this is just part, this is the scene. Were you escaping from something? Were you like, I'm having fun and I'm young and this is kind of the world you get. Like live while you're alive. All of it. All of that. I was escaping but I was also like, I work so hard. I get to have fun and I loved. I had so much fun. Like, I have incredible memories and I wouldn't change any of it. But there's also an element to escape, isn't that for sure? There always was, I think. You know, you mentioned earlier that when you were 15, you basically had some mental health issues. Was it, would you call it a breakdown? For sure. Because I lost touch with, not reality, but I was suicidal and hurting myself and wanting to, there was just the loudest voice in my head telling me I needed to disappear and all of it. It was just not nice. And I'd had that, I had that when I was pretty young when I was a kid. I just remember going into the sea and trying to swim and keep swimming until I drowned. Not that I thought, like, oh, but I was like, I'm just going to swim until I can't swim anymore. You know? Your mum has, has talking, has talking, is a language in my speaking. I've never heard you make a mistake. One is a my native German. Tolkien has talking about, your mum spoken about having mental health issues when you were growing up. Yeah. And I think that and substance abuse on and off in some form. But also mental health issues and also physical health issues caused by a multitude of things. She went to Thailand and drank some tea by a monk that was meant to heal her and that caused her, her bowels to explode. That's when she nearly died when I was young. And that was not her fault, you know? So that was really tough. You know, she was young and she had a clothe to me back and that was really, yeah, that was horrible. She's a medical marvel though. Doctors are like the fact that she's up and walking and talking and alive is, is a miracle. Well, I'm just wondering whether, because you've said in the past, oh, sometimes it felt like you had to be a mother to your mum a little bit. And that experience growing up of, you know, whatever the difficulties that she was going through, trickling down, was that part of what fed into what you were going through when you were 15, do you think? Yeah. How do you explain what was happening with you? Yeah, I think I spent most of my time concerned with my mother's well-being and health that mine didn't come into it. And I was so tired and amashed with her shops and downs and highs and lows that whenever she was low, I was low. And that's when my sleeping problem started because I couldn't sleep ever because I was so scared if I woke up she'd be dead or she wouldn't be there or, you know, I was always calling into her room and checking if she was breathing and stuff because I loved her so much and she had been sick. And a lot of that wasn't her fault and it isn't her fault. And there's a lot of peace I've made with it, especially because of understanding substance is a mental health now from my own perspective. I had so much anger, not at her, but at the world that I didn't release and I didn't let move through me so I just took it out on myself. And she has a similar thing where the pain that she'd caused made her guilty so she takes it out on herself. There's just a cycle. There's a pattern there which is just I feel so bad for what I've done so I'm not going to let myself move on from it which is, you know, something I work with and work on a lot. What do you think your anger was coming from? Was it part of that? Was it resentment at the position you felt you'd been put in or something else? I angry that I couldn't save her. I angry I couldn't fix the problem because I really thought I could. I think that's the root of where it came from. An angry that the drugs and the mental health and all of it like took my mother away a little bit sometimes. But again that anger is something I use. It's something I create with. It's something that like if I'm not angry it's almost I find it hard to like perform. Are you angry in relationships? So I used to not be and I used to be very I enabled angry people. I used to just swallow everything and take anger from others. Because I felt like I could handle it and then I could hurt myself later with my own stuff or with it. And now I get angry. And I'm trying to learn how to release it in a healthy way. My poor partner has to be the brunt. Has to bear the brunt of that. I try and explain to her that I was never like this. I've never been in a relationship where I like to get angry at someone and scream and fucking. And I don't like, I never call her names. I don't say like, "You whatever, I just get angry because I can't. I feel misunderstood or I can't explain myself properly. Not in a way that I ever am just trying to hurt her. It has to come out otherwise. I want to hurt myself. It's just really rough that. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just break, punch, scratch, cut, itch, whatever, maybe I just need to feel pain. And I wouldn't sometimes be able to control that when I felt angry and have to. It's usually a wall. I would just find a wall and try and slam my head into it. Whereas now I freeze because I have to stop myself from moving. But then the voice, the hatred for myself becomes really loud. It's really. That's a lot. It is a lot. Are you okay talking about this? 100%. I like. Not I like talking about it. I think it's important to talk about it because I don't feel like I'm alone in it. And if people feel less alone because of it, I'm also unmedicated, which some people might find crazy. Because these are all things that I'm sure medication could probably help. But as time has gone on, I've really learned my own remedies for it. And I like the way I am. And if it ever gets to a point where obviously it's like dangerous for anyone else or myself, that gets, of course, I will dig myself off and figure it out. But what would be something that might make you want to bang your head? Because you know, make you that angry. Can you give an example of something? Oh yeah, I have a big abandonment thing. So if I want to be feel closeness with someone, if I actually feel really vulnerable, I won't ask for that. I won't go, "Hey, I need help or a hug or to be heard, I'll almost poke someone, push them, and almost want them, like, I'll test them because in my head, I start thinking that the person I love is going to leave, no matter what I do. So I start pushing them to see if they'll leave. And if they leave, then I've proved my point that everyone will leave me, that no one could actually truly love me because I'm a monster. That's like the root of it. And then once I manage to make the person pull back, everything is confirmed and I am an unlovable monster. I don't know. But if anyone really knew the real me that they would leave always. Are you jealous? Are you a jealous person? Are you insecure in that way? No, not that. It's not that. It's more. This is not a reflection of my mother at all. But it's that if she really loved me, she would have been able to be better. And if your own mother can't love you, then that must make me the most unlovable person in the world. And that is not a reflection of her because I don't believe that she could have changed or she. But there's like a deep thing that I can say out loud and I know it's not true, but there's like a. That's the words I'm putting to the feeling. If that makes sense. It's not a jealousy thing. It's not actually a physical thing of someone leaving. It's an emotional leaving. I think love should be really free and I think if someone. Like me and my partner find it really important to talk about like people are attractive and this is that. And it's really. It's nothing about possessiveness or jealousy. Are you poly? No. Could you be? No. Why not? I've always thought in my head I was like, I feel like I could do that. I just don't. This is why in the relationship I'm in now, it feels like the first time I've ever really been in love. Because when you've taken substances out of it and everything else. I feel like I would always sabotage the relationships I was in with substances and substances were always work. It was always at the front part, whereas now my relationship is the most important thing. Like if that's not okay, I'm not okay. And that's probably unhealthy and that might be codependency and everything else. But. Polly, no, I can't do it. Would you imagine. Do you see yourself getting married at some point or making a lifelong commitment to someone? Yeah, I do. I really do. And I. Yeah, I want a family, really badly. Do you? I definitely don't want to have kids to fix anything, but I think it will really heal parts of myself that have a tough time having sympathy for the kid I was. Because I've done a lot of work with that and like. Yeah, imagining a little kid go through the things I saw or went through, I couldn't imagine that. What do you mean? What did you see in. I don't want to go into it because I do feel like that is a bound thing. She's not fancy or. Yeah. Family? Yeah. And I think. You just saw things you feel like you didn't perhaps need to see. For sure. Right? Yeah, which. Which happens, you know? Yeah, I don't think that's that unusual. No, it's not. It's not. But I would love more than anything to have kids, yeah. Are you engaged? No. I have been engaged. Have you? Is that known? Oh, I don't know. We've got a news line. Who are you engaged to? I'm telling you now. Oh, I shouldn't have said that. Why are you just pricked up? Oh my god, I don't even know. Was that not known? I don't even know. I don't know who you were engaged to. Doesn't matter now. A long one. Sucks for them. I've been proposed to. I've also proposed to someone. I have you. Who did you propose to? I'm not telling you. Who were you proposed to by? I'm not telling you. I'm striking on all of the mysteries here. I love it. Okay. Just knocking on the door. No, but I also. It was something about actual marriage that I really didn't believe in. But it was engagement that made me feel like they might not leave me. So it was like, oh, if we're engaged, that means there's an extra line they have to go to to leave. But I actually never wanted to get married. That really scared me because I'm such a. I really believe in freedom and not in the sense of doing whatever I want. But I think whenever I feel tied down to something, it makes me go wait a minute. Wait a minute. That feels funny. And also in the sense that marriage in terms of the patriarchal society and the heteronormative version of that and for religion and all of that is not something I'm down with. But I do believe in a spiritual union and a commitment. And I think there is a beauty in that. But it's taken me a minute to really understand that. And also to have the same rights in terms of being in hospital and kids and adoption and all of it. It makes sense. You grew up. You came out, you know, you basically. I think you identify as being lesbian and for a while you identify as pansexual I think. And maybe bisexual for a while. Yeah, because I think men are attractive. I think if you're a lesbian you can find men attractive. But I've never been in love with a man. So I think that classifies me as a lesbian. Did it take a while to figure it out? Yes. Why? Because it's hard being gay. I think basic human instinct is to go for an easier path, which is I hope I'm not. Is it can't fight against you? Well, I mean, just. In my little bubble, it's 2026. And many of those old taboos or prejudices about what it means to be gay have been exploded and dispelled. Right? We've openly gay people in almost all walks of life with a few exceptions. Obviously men's football is a big one. Women's football, not so much. Gays everywhere. Gays everywhere. Find a straight female footballer. There'll be. That's a joke, obviously. But in most other areas with politics, business, culture. I mean, I think in religious communities, Christian and in black communities, it's tricky. I think in America, it feels like things are going backwards a bit in terms of. But are you if you consider your experience? For me. Yes, your experience. I think there was always an element of people poking fun at it, which was fine, because I did it too. But people close to me. Because also, I guess I didn't feel very seen for it. But I also know that my own personality is I would take the piss of myself, brush it under the rug. And not want to talk about it. But there's a part deep down that you always want to feel understood a bit more. By who? By straight. - Great people in your life who love you, who don't understand that experience. - Exactly. - Sure, but broader than that, family is in my friends who are family and stuff like that. Yeah, like by anyone. - You felt like there was a default. Of course, we assume Kara's straight, never crossed our minds that she might not be there for. There was a direction, a momentum, where it would have felt that you were fighting the flow a bit. - As an actor and like Harvey Weinstein called me up and said, "Are you gay?" And I was like, "What do you mean?" And he was like, "You should never be in a relationship with a woman." I was definitely. - 'Cause he'd seen you out with it. - Just paparazzi, so just me with women. I'm just saying you'll never make it in the industry if people think you're gay. And I really believed him and I really took that to heart. - Although that's slightly different, 'cause that's being out to the public. But behind the scenes figuring out what your identity was, was also thinking about admitting to yourself, like I'm gay, whether that was a process or something that was pretty evident quite early. - Well now I look back on it. It was super evident really young. I knew at like 11 years old, I had this one friend that I was like, "Oh, I think I care about him more than she likes me." And I don't know how, but I do. It was obvious now, but then it really wasn't. And I'm very proud of it now. And I think when I started talking about it and being open about it, I felt like there was a lot to fight for still at that point in terms of shows about gay people and people to look up to for younger kids. I thought it was super important, but maybe I hadn't also accepted it fully in myself. I wanted to be that role model that I didn't have, I suppose. (upbeat music) - Okay, you ready? Are we gonna mention the Johnny Depp thing? - Sure, what part of it? - He was driven crazy by the idea that Amber might be sleeping with you. - A moment to comment. Yeah, it's because we did a movie together and it was called "Lunner Fields." He was also doing the movie. I think he was pretty driven crazy by jealousy, I suppose. Nothing was happening at that point. Later after they divorced it, I suppose. - You suppose? - No, I don't suppose, I do. No, yeah. An entanglement, what is the word? - You tell me. - Yeah, I don't know what that means either. - Well, I know what an entanglement is. - What does it mean, is it bad? - I think it means a relatively short-lived series. - Sure, yeah. - Liaison or series of-- - Well, close for a long time, and then when they were going through the divorce, yeah, we were entangled, I suppose. But she was also entangled with other people. - Well, we'll eat, Lon. - There you go. - Luckily, London Fields turned out to be-- - Terrible, what? - Well, it's in a very select group of one of the films it's got, zero percent fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes. - Yeah. - That's quite elite, come up with it. - It's like, I've won a razzie, basically, is what you're saying. I love it. - Is it what kind of-- - Obviously, I'm a fan of the book it was based on-- - Oh, the book is incredible. - Martin Amos. - Martin Amos, genius. - The cast is amazing. - The cast is great. - Good self, Amber Herd, Johnny Depp, in an uncredited cameo. Jason Isis, Theo James, Billy Bob Thornton. Could you tell it was gonna be quite as bad? - You never know. - Do you not? - It seemed like it was gonna be kind of major, to be honest. - Did it? - Kind of. - Well, with the cast. - The script was so good. - Was it? - Yeah. - The New York Times called it, quote, "herendous, a trashy tortured misfire from beginning to end." - Yeah. - Andrew Barker of Variety said, "Sometimes you have to try to adapt to seemingly unadaptable book, just to learn how truly unadaptable it is." - Yeah. That's really well said, to be quite honest. I have to be honest. That's really, well done. Just get back on track. We were talking about sexuality. - Yes. - Which brings us to, it doesn't really, but that's my segway. Your sobriety journey. - Yeah. - I mean, and that's gonna lead us up to your music and the album, but there was kind of a rock bottom point wasn't there, which passed me by, to be honest. Nevertheless, it was a big moment apparently in the culture. You were photographed at an airport looking disheveled. Is the best sense I can make of it? Disheveled, yeah, mentally unwell, for sure. Not lack of sleep. I just had a seizure. - Really? - I was not sober, for sure. - Coming back from Burning Man. - Burning Man. - And then, would you have been caning it at Burning Man? Quite hard. - Yeah, to be honest. - And then you just sort of hit the buffers. - Yeah, I was taking a lot of drugs and I, there was a certain amount of time we had to leave and I was carrying out, I'd always overpeck for Burning Man. I was just carrying loads of suitcases and my body just couldn't take it and I had a seizure. Which again, never seen myself have a seizure, but I've had a bunch. - In the past, your seizure has been just purely medical. - Drug-induced. - Drug-induced. - Yeah, yeah. Either lack of drugs or too many drugs, yeah. - And it was captured by paparazzi? - Not the seizure. - No, okay. - Oh god, no, sorry, yes. You don't, you don't understand. So no, no one's all that got home, desperately trying to find more drugs because, I don't know how to select. - I don't know how to select. - L-A. - Before I get on another flight, I hadn't slept. Maybe found some drugs at the house, did them went to the airport, got out without shoes, hair. I had had so much stuff in my hair, the hair, after Burning Man, I had a shower, probably so there's just like sand, hair looks crazy. - You can just see it in the eyes, I look absolutely wild and feral and not well. And I'm just like smoking a cigarette, wearing a free Britney T-shirt or something. - She was still in her conservatorship at that time. - I don't know, I'm not. - Britney is free now. - She's free, she is free. - So, and then how did that lead to you to the recovery journey? Like was that part of the whole, was that a catalytic event? - Yeah, for sure, because people saw it, it was everywhere. I lost jobs, that sucked. People weren't really worried, that sucked. I got so many messages, it was horrible. - You lost jobs because people said like this, what people think like this, this isn't a good look. You look out of control and weird. - Yeah, it's not a good look. As a model, you'll meant to keep the brands standards in some way, it's in contracts that you sign, you can't like. - Really? - Yeah, yeah. So, they didn't directly fire me because of it, but they didn't renew contracts. - It went a bit quiet. - It's super quiet, yeah. Everyone went very silent. And I knew I needed to get sober, so I medically was weaned off of GBL, which probably is the hardest one to come off. But I couldn't do it at home. I couldn't deal with the. Getting sober and realizing the more I was sober, the more I realized how badly I fucked up and that just was too much. So I couldn't stay sober and then I overdosed because I think there was opiates in the cocaine, I think I'd bought or something. So I was in Alcant was in a hospital and that's really when everything happened because when I woke up. - Where were you in Alcant? - At my house. - Who knock hand you? - The ambulance people. - For people who don't know, that's the, is the kind of quick fix, knocks the. - Fentanyl. - The fentanyl off your neuro receptors and you come out of it like that, you revived, almost in the middle of overdosing. - Yeah. - And now it's being held down by men, two of a thing and I didn't know what was happening. - How did they know you were there? - My girlfriend called the police. - Really? - To ambulance, police or whatever. Because she's like, "Oh, we're losing, so this is. " - Wow. - Yeah, horrible. - What's it like coming out of it? You just become aware. - I wanted to die. - Really? - Immediately. I was like, "I can't." - 'Cause you go straight into withdrawal. - Yeah, and you know what you've just put people you love through and you see the pain and the face, the shame. Oh, that makes me want to cry and it's horrible. It's hard to forgive yourself for that. That was one of the most painful things that's happened to me, so doing it that to someone else is really rough. - So then? - So then, I realized I really needed to go away, made the decision to do that, had some incredible sober. People that I look up to, I have one person say to me, if you say sober for you, year and I check in on you in a year and you've stayed sober. I'll buy you a kilo of cocaine and see if you want to do it again. And I didn't because that's how short someone is when you've reached that point that if you stay sober for a year you'll never want to go back and that's true for me personally and all everyone is so lucky. That was the last time for some reason something changed that time. It wasn't fun anymore, none of it was fun anymore and I was so desperate that I was praying every day for it to end that cycle and I wanted to create something good with it. So yeah, that's the kind of opening I guess to music because music was always there and I loved it so much but I didn't love myself enough to believe that I could do it until I got sober and until I really forgave myself for everything and until I really loved all of it, loved the dark, loved the light, loved everything in between and that's where an artist emerged because that's where the point of you came from. That's where I could find the polarities of being human and put them into an album and that's really putting to the test how much do you really believe in it, how much do you really want to do it and the answer is badly and yeah this is the beginning of something really special. I want to continue to make music. I think it's probably something that keeps me sane and sober, 100%. So you kind of a multi-hyphen at this point or do you have a main thing, like are you going to put everything into music? Is it going to be something that you mix with other stuff? For the meantime, I think I've never been a super focused person but actually I work really well with routine and focus so it is the priority. It is the thing that I wake up thinking about after my girlfriend's music and I don't know that's like, I don't know, it's different for some reason. I was thinking about genre and you got two, two main tracks out at the moment, correct? Cold. I forgot an out of my head. It's some experimental melodic pop. Sure, it's kind of like the tunnel. It's quite industrial and process and also. There's industrial noises but there's plenty of melodies mixed in with challenging kind of blasts of distortion. It's kind of unpredictable and it takes you, you don't really know what's going to happen next. Co-produced with BJ Burton. Is he your creative partner? Do you write on your own? Do you write with someone? Do you write with BJ? I write on my own and then I have collaborations that I write within the studio. BJ, we co-produced together. Who's the architect of those experimental sounds? BJ, I mean both of us. He's the sound person. Because you could take that song and do a million things with it. You could play it on a guitar. That's how they started. I think he introduced me to a lot of it. But yeah, he was the architect behind the sounds, how they were arranged and I guess modifying them because I had to pull him back from how much distortion and stuff there was. I admired the level of, when you first start the song, okay, and then the big blast comes in and I was like, okay, I like that. Good. Yeah, it's good. You had a development deal with Simon Fuller, who used to manage the spice girls as well as other people back in the day. You eventually turned him down because he wanted to change your name. Is that true? Yeah, it was before modeling took off and I wrote a bunch of songs with producers he put me in the rooms with and he was like, these are good, but it's not what we're looking for. We want to cut your hair and dye it green and your name will be Spike or Spark. I can't remember. For real? He didn't mind whether it was Spike or Spark. No, I just don't know which one it was. It was one of them. They showed me some presentation. I've no idea. They are different, right? Because it's Spike because I remember Green Spikey hair or Spark because it looks like I've stopped my finger in a Spark plug. I've no idea. Were you tempted? No. No, because music is precious. I just knew I was going to do it one day, just not then and my own way. So you're in your mid-tour, you're going off to Paris? You got some dates in America? How's that all feel? It's getting better, but there's like. It's good. It's good, but I just know I can do more. But maybe not with this tour. There's just like already what I'm doing this and talking about these songs they feel old and I want to write new. I'm already back in the studio and next album and all of it. Even though I am very excited about this one. It's funny because when people hear things for the first time artists have been working on them for so long. Of course. You promote things that you made two years ago and you're like, I can't even remember making that. You get a bit disconnected from them. Is it still ups and downs like the normal things or you're not in this sort of sunlit uplands of post recovery? No, that's also just not possible. No, because also that ends quite quickly. The pink bubble, they call it. Do you still do meetings? No. Which is bad probably, but I. It's not my thing. Are you completely sober? Yes. I have control, but once something enters me, I lose control, right? That's the point. But I think there's medicinal hallucinogens which can be okay at some point. I just don't know if that's a thing for me, but we'll see. Apparently they're good for PTSD. Better than ketamine, I think, guys. Everyone. The hallucinogens. I wash it so. Apparently. I haven't got that yet. I haven't decided if that's for me. We'll see. Well listen, congratulations on getting this far and everything you've accomplished. Thank you. Thank you for coming by. Thank you. Music is my drug. It's funny. I did I did this X in the drugs and now the rock and roll. Yes. You know. Boge, boge, boge, boge, boge. That was the. You're the echoey bit in Boge by Manana. That's what I was doing there. Sache, Shantay. That's RuPaul. Milly's written Twitter Battle with Jamila Jamil. Have you ever been in an online fight? I mean, that's mainly what the online arena is for. I've been quite scrupulous about trying to avoid getting in fights. I honestly don't think I have a. I've obviously been attacked multiple times. People spoiling for fights. When I sent out my now legendary tweet, Mark Legendary off your bingo card, about Michael Jackson being a pedophile, there was quite a lot of comeback and I think one of those I came back to his comeback and he came back to that. That's not the right verb. He responded and then I left it there. As I said in the chat, "No one wins. I'm trying not to dilute or destroy my online persona as a nice person." Adam Bra, Brian Cox, the astronomer. Not for me to say who's the third one. London Fields, the film. I didn't watch it for the chat. There's only so many hours in the day. If you've seen it, let me know what you think in the comments. I checked. It does in fact have 0% on the Tomatometer. It's certified maximally not fresh. Other 0% fresh films you're wondering. I knew this one anyway. Pudsy The Dog, the movie. I used to live near the director and I'd see him out walking his dog and it's hard not to project because I don't think he directed any films after that and it was hard not to project a kind of sadness onto him. Which may have been completely inaccurate. He might have been loving life. But I was like, there he is with his dog walking off all the anguish he feels from having made one of the worst films of all time. But those numbers are bullshit. Mill, if you're on your game, you would have said, my Scientology movie gets such and such percent or the Manus Fifth film gets such and such percent. I think you looked it up and it wasn't low enough to be funny. Is that what happened? Yeah, it was. Is it? Unwinkly, yeah. So there you go. A little insight into the mind of Millichu. I wouldn't call it sadistic but just mischievous. There was no value to be extracted from a high score for my output. So it goes unremarked upon. That's it for this week. Apart from the credits, the producer was Millichu, the assistant producer was Man Aliazari, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, the music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira, the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify.