S6 E9: Canada 1995 - Alesi's only F1 win

The Athletic John Lacey claimed his first F1 victory at the 91st attempt in the 1995 Canadian Grand Prix and he did it on his birthday. At the time it seemed unthinkable to Lacey would never win again in F1, but the fact that his maiden victory ended up being his only one just made that day in Montreal even more memorable in F1 history helped by the fact he was driving a number 27 Ferrari at the circuit named after Gil Villeneuve. As well as a Lacey's win, we've got plenty of other 1995 F1 topics to get into here on Bring Back v10s and to help me Glen Freeman do just that. We have Sam Smith and a first appearance on the show for our very own podcast guru here at the race, Jonathan Reynolds. So Johnny, as it's your debut, you can take the opening question first when you think back to Canada 95, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Well, I think I need to put my cards on the table from the very off here and declare myself a massive John Lacey fan. So first thing that always springs to mind is that image of him sat on the back of Michael Schumacher's Beneton on the slowing down lap. I remember thinking at the time, oh my god, this is amazing, this is what a celebration, I'd never seen anything like it. I think again, the bias creeping out all these years later, I don't think I've seen post-race victory celebration quite as cool. I mean, the emotion, the passion, the fact that everybody seemed to be genuinely happy for him, you know, even Michael who lost the certain victory. So yeah, incredible scenes. Yeah, I trust that you won't let your fandom get in the way. You know that we don't appreciate that and bring back v10s, everyone has to be entirely neutral. No favorites allowed. Sound good to have you on the show again. What stands out for you about this weekend? I honestly can't get away from what Johnny's just described that scene of a Lacey. It's a strive, the Beneton as he came back to Pout Fermi was remarkable. I think it would be a steely heart that didn't feel delighted for a Lacey. And I suppose the other one is when he crossed the line and took the check of flag, you can see the entire pit wall cheering and gesticulating as he goes past. Personally, I remember that evening quite well too. I had some friends out and we went to celebrate because like Johnny, I was a Lacey fan somewhat and I remember drinking bloody marries which was the only red drink in town back then. So yeah, to say I recall every aspect of that evening, not so much, but I do remember we made a little number 27 stickers out of the beer mats and stuck them to the glasses and sort of toasted John's success. So that's funny how those little details sort of stick in your mind and all the more surprising that I can actually remember them after 27 years. Yeah, that's an incredible story. Let's hear some suggestions from our audience. I don't think anyone went into that level of detail, but thanks as always for the memories you send in. Danger Moose says how this was going to be the floodgates opening for Johnny Lacey, yet we are still waiting. The Stephen Camp was one of many to mention a Lacey getting that lift back to the pit on the back of Michael Schumacher's Beneton along with Tibo, Magal shots and Andy Campbell. I always thought it didn't look very comfortable sitting on the back of that kind of pointy angular air box and engine cover. Scott Cheg chose David Coolther, binning it under the bridge early on in the race as did Liam and Thomas Knight. And on a bad day for Williams, Matt Knop recalls Damon Hill raging when he got out of his car as it broke down next to the pit wall. Racing viewer Aida Millwood and Simon Gray chose the weird chicane that was on the back straight for the second year in a row. Thankfully that was gone for 1996. Indie kart and Chris Parrott say Jordan's double podium and Gareth Jenkins reminds us all that this was the last time a V12 engine won a grand prix. And we're very welcoming and accepting of other engine forms on this program. You don't just have to be a V10 to get out of. How can you not love a V12, particularly that screaming final version? We had in 95. This is your last chance to get your question submitted for our series finale. Where as I say, you can ask us anything about the V10 era. It doesn't have to be a V10 engine. By the time our final regular episode is released, we will have recorded our answers to your questions. So get them in now using the hashtag bring back V10s on Twitter or email bringbackv10s at the hyphen race.com. We'll do a few shout outs to those of you leaving us five star reviews on Apple podcast. Thank you to legend Pete 84 Alex 91 Hill, Alex Pluto, Stuart K. Hill and Webster Sham. And thank you to cows biggest fan for leaving us a second review to let us know you bought a bringback V10s t shirt. And if you're wondering how cows biggest fan manage that, you can check out our very own merchandise range over at shop dot the hyphen race.com. The famous color combinations of the era, if you check them out, I'm sure we'll be out to work out which cars we're remembering. You can probably tell already there will be a lot of John Lacey talk in this episode. Coming into the weekend, he was at the center of a public spack with Martin Brundel, which was carrying over from the previous race in Monaco. Lacey was livid that the lapt Brundel had crashed in front of him in Monaco, taking Lacey out as well. And Lacey claimed this was a regular trend for Brundel to cause him problems. Lacey said in his auto sport magazine column ahead of Canada, ever since I was racing in the Tyrell and he was in the Brabham, he has been a problem for me. And it's the same story every year. He might be a good driver, aggressive, reliable, but the way he tries to prove his potential shows a lack of understanding of racing. He seems to wait for the leaders to get close to lapping, to get into a fight which is not his, just to show his potential. Brundel stood up for himself when he was asked about this in Canada saying several drivers had spoken to him about Lacey's hypocrisy in complaining so much when they all had their own complaints about racing. Lacey. So Johnny Triter answered this in the most non biased way you can was was a Lacey being unfair here was Brundel really this much of a problem driver in F1. I'm smiling here because I think this is this is a slice of classic Lacey, isn't it? I think you'd be hard pushed to say Brundel was a problem driver in F1. I don't know if you find many people who say that. A firm driver, a difficult driver to get past sometimes but I think the incident you referred to in Monaco is probably reflective of this kind of build up of frustration over the years. A couple of races earlier in Spain, Lacey had accused Brundel of blocking him and I was remembering in spar the year before I don't know if you guys remember but in qualifying, John was furious with Brundel apparently blocking him on his final flying, lap in qualifying, marching down to the McLaren pits and demonstrating with him. I think it was various incidents with him over the years, wasn't there? I think there was another one in Brazil where the two of them collided in 92 and it wasn't just John complaining about Martin Martin had been furious about John that day. Clearly there was a bit of animosity between them. Actually, while researching this episode, I found a quote from Brundel a few years later where he referred to Lacey as a charming man who navigated his way into more lucrative contracts than his talent deserved. So I think clearly it's quite a music isn't it because today there's widely known as university love characters within the paddock, aren't they? The two of them. But I'm not sure the two of them were ever especially fond of each other, especially in their racing days. Yeah, that's incredible. Good research vibes there as well. If you're digging out random quotes that we've not heard before, maybe you can do that for the next series as well. I'm sure you've got lots of spare time to take on the epic job of bringing back V10's research. Lacey took some brief time out from Hammering Brundel to discuss his ongoing wait for a first F1 win because heading to Canada, he had 90 starts to his name, but no victory yet. He said, "I don't believe in bad luck. I believe in unhappy circumstances in lack of preparation in all those little things which sooner or later come to break your stride." Now Sam, we've talked in some of our episodes that focus on the earlier era, part of the V10 era about the rise and emergence of Lacey by 95. Had he shown enough in his F1 career that he deserved to be a race winner by this point? I think when you were praise Lacey as a driver, it's often tempting to just fire off the old cliches, isn't it? Mercurial, firebrand, petulant. Yes, he was all those things and they are to an extent adequate descriptions of him, but actually, after five full seasons and on balance, you'd have to say he probably deserved to have at least a win or two. I mean, that breakthrough 1990 season, his first full campaign in F1, you just marveled at him as he took that turtle to place is that the team could really only dream of back there. I've got to know Nigel Berrisford who is an engineer and I think we've had Nigel on a few podcasts. Sam, we're going to be back. over the years. And Nigel said that yes he was all those things that I mentioned at the top of the question. But he was much more than that. You know he had an innate talent to drive cars but he didn't necessarily know how he did it. The methodology that Senna and Schumacher and Prost had and Manson and PK before him just wasn't there. It was just pure raw talent that was never properly managed over his certainly his early career and probably throughout his career. You look at races like Spar in 91, Monza in 94 and there are a few more races that he could have won and some of them he should have won. Most of 91, all of 92, all of 93 were essentially write-offs. So with half his time in F1 by 95 decimated by bad cars and then there's the the bigger question isn't there as you know was he culpable in some of those bad cars. I mean in 92 he was the senior driver there and didn't leave the team. In fact probably led them down some wrong path. So there is that argument as well. But I think on the whole actually there is reasons to suggest that you probably deserve to have a couple of wins by the time Montreal came around. Let's go on to some real news next. McLaren would catch the eye in Canada as its car appeared without the mid-wing it had run in the first few races of the year. McLaren tried to explain that the plan had always been to remove the unsightly addition from its cars for lower downforce tracks and Martin Wittmarsch denied that it was a sign the team had lost faith in the concept. It had been so proud of when the car launched. We talked about that in our Manson 95 episode back in series one. Wittmarsch also said the wing had more advantages at the start of the year when the cars were still running with a hole in the back of the air box and when the teams were allowed to close those holes up the combination of that and the addition of other aerodynamic devices McLaren were developing meant they could acquire the downforce more efficiently somewhere else. Wittmarsch's words not mine. We didn't see much more of the mid-wing after that McLaren only raced with it again on the twisty hungari ring and IEDA tracks. Johnny Ron Dennis was very proud of this radical design at the start of the year but do we have to say that this wing was ultimately a failure and basically a waste of time? Well I mean first of all I hope I'm not speaking out turn here but the 95 McLaren surely one of the worst looking McLaren's of all time I don't know whether you guys absolutely you know something just very aesthetically unpleasant about the whole thing wasn't there with the with the needle nose and I don't know just the whole thing just you know I go back to that what's the saying a camel is a horse designed by committee and there's something about this this car where it felt like an F1 car designed by committee you know people sort of not working together on a cohesive vision I guess. So yeah I mean coming back to the mid-wing you know when it when it first came out I think most of us kind of looked at it and thought this is a bit strange and ultimately with hindsight you say yes it was was a failure but you know if you look where F1 aerodynamics kind of went in the years to come with with Ambrel wings in the 2010s and you know with the kind of different winglets coming out of their boxes in the 2000s you kind of think well maybe you know maybe they were under something here but ultimately yeah maybe maybe a bit ahead of its time in that sense. It's a good point that the whole car looked terrible and it still looked bad without the mid-wing I always felt the the 2017 T-wings were almost a tribute to that horrendous McLaren mid-wing yeah yeah. In other McLaren news the team was still coming to terms with its split with Nigel Mansl which we covered in depth in series one as I mentioned Mark Blunder was back on stand in duty but McLaren wouldn't confirm him for the rest of the season. Team Boss Ron Dennis said we said Mark would be in the car for two races to give both us and him breathing space to see how he copes. That led to speculation that McLaren were looking for alternatives and the team denied rumors in Canada that it was trying to take former Mercedes Protogee Hiteshald-Frensen from Salva however Mercedes Motorsport Boss Norbert Hald didn't exactly give Blunder a blunder. There you go I've made the classic mistake of votes of confidence when he said and lessened obvious established star became available. It would obviously make more sense to stay with Mark for the remainder of the season. Blunder wasn't happy about this on the F1 beyond the grid podcast he said it was his biggest bugbear in 1995 that Ron Dennis wouldn't commit to him. Blunder said he didn't get it I needed that security. Ron's outlook was the type of performed better under pressure. I argued that isn't how it works and that I would perform way better knowing the time here for the rest of the season. I found it detrimental because they were timed where I wondered if I could really get stuck in or if I make a mistake I won't be in the car for the next Grand Prix. Sam for that Madsville 95 episode you spoke to Mark and we used a few clips from that just about how you know he found out he was getting back in the car and that sort of thing. But specifically looking at his situation here should McLaren have given him the security he was asking for. Yes. Should we just leave it at that? I mean that's just the complete no brainer isn't it? I mean it wasn't as if Blunder could make a massive difference with that car anyway you know they knew from an early stage it was a bit of a pig. We've talked about Ron Dennis's limitations as a I suppose a man manager before I'm we and it's kind of ironic because in in that sense he was he was so often fetted by business magazines and various industry types at the time has been the best manager in the sport. The counter argument to that are episodes like this. I mean the signing of and subsequent pantomime with Mansl is case study number one isn't it? I mean an absolute debacle and it was probably the nadir of McLaren. I mean 95 generally was anyway but the whole Mansl situation was certainly a big spike in that. I reckon Blunder was exactly the right kind of driver at that time that they needed and Ron must have known that. He was known on since someone who was gifted technically from a test driver point of view he'd been with McLaren in 92 and developed a lot of their hardware for subsequent seasons. Just somebody who could deliver when the chips were down and you know I think I don't think even Mark would say that he was an absolute absolute out-and-out superstar but he was somebody dependable and somebody who would go that extra mile. I mean finishing the British Grand Prix on three Wales was a good example of that wasn't it a bit later in the season a few races after Montreal. That kind of weird psychology that that Ron often employed just to me smacked of a bit of I don't know what you'd call it just a bit of overthinking things if you're kind maybe if you weren't been so kind you could say it was a little bit of pomposity. Dangle in the car at in front of Blondelle was just not the way to go he wasn't that kind of driver so yes it was I think Mark had reason for several grievances that year. So as we've established McLaren wasn't having a great time in 1995 and that led to all kinds of speculation about the team making big changes behind the scenes. Ron Dennis was rumoured to have approached Adrian Neue, Gary Anderson, Alan Jenkins, Rory Bern and even former McLaren design icon John Barnard about coming into over all the technical side of the team. The Barnard rumours were first reported over the Canada weekend and by the following month a contract was drawn up. Barnard's only request was that he would report to Dennis directly rather than have to go via Martin Wittmarsh who Barnard described as a manager not a racer. Ron had agreed to this and put it in the contract. The wording which appears in Barnard's book The Perfect Car said the technical director shall be responsible only to the managing director. No appointment will be made which would or could have the effect of changing or prejudicing the direct line of authority. It also said Barnard would be consulted on matters regarding the overall conduct of the company including non-technical activities. Then when Barnard came into sign the contract he asked Ron if Wittmarsh had been told about the arrangement and he described Dennis as being evasive in his response. Barnard refused to sign the contract and stormed out and if you read his book you'll realise that's in classic fashion. He said in his book that was one of the biggest regrets of his career. He said I probably should have signed and I might still be earning big money. Johnny was this perhaps though a blessing in disguise for McLaren given two years later it signed Adrian Neue or could it have been Barnard that turned the team around in the same way Neue did in the late 90s? Again I think with the benefit of hindsight it's hard to see this as anything but a blessing in disguise for McLaren isn't it? Not only for the fact that Adrian Neue then turns up and we know about his record of you know turning up to a team and making them the team to beat but all the kind of red flags that you were pointing out with Barnard in those negotiations I think obviously would have been very tempting for all parties to kind of try to rekindle the old magic you know bring the band back together. mewn cael hyn anadau nem ar bac natethor segis y CAP-G birth peth mar Muydan o gyrnau feiddau rftenau ar yma. handle ewaith y bywious goalgau yn Y Llawyr i香. Mae lan Y Jane Gray yn a rhif nieangio er czy oyslaenau y bhwy魔edd bobl beitagir bod ddeelg gen ei conw ei gwloeg. Naidd Ja: Yn hyn� Ben Guardi i concealed eu m parliamentiai gyd mnydig. Haha, Wow Mae'n mynd neu dim ei dalogi. A yw'n ff Donep roe Teneptoriaeth yn nesb どel o'r gyfer ei gust Judy. Mae'n mynd neu'r gweithio ac mae'n mynd ei gweithio am yma o'r gyfer ei ffynio o'r gyfer ei ffynio. 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Ys lan, 8 fa, i疾 стрig ac yn smevaid dew y sem adw sefer o ddoedd yr jagetlon un20— ح Destun a Nydd y dyd weddi Zewr a tryws amroedd Dueys yn dewn darod be 페fic x 34% a'u y wntryc de going to gen am yw o lefnis ym unad ein ändra ff Yn fel'r 411 bod'in sut y有anedd amlor unrhyw ein cael ei'ršíi eithio'r llwy i'r immisdgolsa bus a'f bethan yn ff i'r juice yni ' 완 Ken yma fer Bishop y byd oes yn ymwch yn ymwch yn ymwch yn ei ddodryddio i'r cyfrifordio'r cyfrifordio i'r cyfrifordio, a'r cyfrifordio yn ymwch yn ymwch yn oes yn ymwch yn y'n ddodryddio i'r cyfrifordio i'r cyfrifordio. gy-lwy marki ryd Sept. bounds, iawn yn yw ceill a'n inductce ac yn y hullane sylf y pan, och wediadau nesbrânnydd, beth yn eu ar anŵwg ddap wedi Yschut? Teith am gyda ddyniag. Tau feleudwch Tian'i cre嗎 i'r Problem dobl mewng hwaf byddwch paratau conعدdid o'n tra髪ita â fbud llwy. Twnes hynnyddiol o daafl tutio hamnes o moed hangar yn ff güç o fegu gyd hipon, ob Oni Modig P yiseg fignorien dd Bangon i oeseg dubio mi.» Stati faid bet Secd ar un diodd yn bom ar eich cyfan Lyffegdu. Fr Lyffegdu yn gliddor wedyn o ligion a'r cyfer o c Reinbarc Buyn Santosh, un Rlydor gydayddarwch gyda'r robych Before on Dragon o Prafog, 还w palyn a unr43 llygu dewrian i Done SI earlyllig. Le�� i'n mald yn ffydraig ddiw 겦ig er yn am ableadų bethair y o bethwch awing gy ersal dweud i'n gael yn ymwch ddodd yn ffydraig ddiw i'n gael yn ffydraig ddiw i'n gael yn ffydraig ddiw i'n gael yn ffydraig. Fydraig ddiw i'n gael yn ffydraig ddiw i'n gael yn ffydraig ddiw i'n gael yn ffydraig. Fydraig ddiw i'n gael yn ffydraig. I think on the one hand you can say well these two people who've been there and done that, they know all about the trials and tribulations of running a team. On the other hand, having been there and done that, you think they might have a little more sympathy for Symtex plights. Yes, Symtex weren't operating in the same sort of stratosphere as McLaren, as bad as McLaren were at that point. So they were probably a bit of an irrelevance to Ron, and likewise to Bernie, in terms of the show, what are they contributing to the show, probably from his point of view very little. So if they go away then, so what, so be it. But it's always difficult to hear people being so dismissive of people who are ultimately trying to make a go of it. And Symtex, we rattled off that list of teams there, some evocative names, some famous names as well. Should F1 have been concerned about all the teams it was losing in the first half of the 90s? My personal opinion is no, not really, because I watched a lot of former 3000, I actually worked for a former 3000 team when I was a kid. And I can tell you in that paddock, there was probably two or three teams that were what you consider professional teams. And the rest were less than professional, let's say some of them were outright outrageous in terms of being there in the first place. Now I'm not saying 40 course and Pacific were those kind of teams, I mean Pacific had a very good pedigree. In particular, 40 course would one race in former 3000 and they had a cash injection from Pedro de Nés. But you know, these teams weren't Jordan and they weren't Salber. Yes, everyone's got to come from somewhere. But once you get there, you have to be professional and you have to be ambitious as well. You've got to match the initial ambition of getting into former one with actually producing something that makes people sit up and take notice. I think on one hand, give the team some credit for having a crack. But I suppose apart from giving weirdos like me and Ed Stroll so much pleasure, they really didn't have a place at the pinnacle of the sport did they. And when we talked about SymTech, at least they had proved albeit very, very in a handful of races that they could race in the midfield. Pacific and never got there in two seasons. 40 course were never going to get there themselves. They were so far off, I think in Pacific's case, there was a load of ambition and a decent pedigree as I said. But if you regularly seven to, I think to say that's in some cases, they were nine seconds off the pace. And allowing drivers such as Giovanni Lavagia and John Denny De La Tras to drive your car for cash, then it's probably time to go and do something else, isn't it? You know, I think in terms of F1 being concerned about losing these teams, on one hand, the chaff had to be separated from the weak somehow. And if you weren't strong enough to swim in those choppy waters of F1 and all those other cliches, then yeah, you weren't going to survive long. Just commercially, it was just impossible to have any sustainability for a proper stretch, which Jordan and South have done. Both of those teams now live on, albeit under different, different guys, isn't it? Let's get on to a brighter topic after all that and squeeze in a Jacques Villeneuve reference, even though he wasn't an F1 driver yet. Villeneuve was fresh off his famous Indy 500 win, where I'm obliged to say he came back from two laps down to win. And his manager, Craig Pollock, was in the F1 paddock in Canada, saying he was on a fact-finding mission. The Canadian media in particular couldn't resist the idea of Jill Villeneuve's son linking up with Ferrari, helped by Pollock admitting he'd had talks with them. Ferrari team boss John Todd played it down, saying a deal for 1996 was unlikely that he was open to the idea of Villeneuve testing for the team. At the end of the season, whether that was Todd being polite or not, we don't know, that test never happened as by August Villeneuve was signed up by Williams for 96. Sam, did Villeneuve's Indy car exploits by this stage warrant attention in the F1 paddock, or was he only on the radar really because of the name? Answer wisely. I was such an avid Indy car fan in the early to mid-90s and I didn't miss a race. Often frequenting dodgy pubs to get an equally dodgy satellite connection to watch races at bizarre times. On Sunday evenings, believe it or not Glenn, you weren't the only one rooting for JV to get into F1 back then. At that stage, I don't know, it just seemed a little bit fanciful. Yes, he'd won Indy. Yes, he was on the way to the title. He was obviously extremely good. But when you looked around F1 and you saw the big seats, there's just a presumption that Beneton Williams Ferrari McLaren, they'd be tied up or they'd be looking three or four years into the future and have their preferred driver choice is sorted. But actually, that wasn't the case, was it? There were seats up for grabs and there were a lot of those stars who weren't as solid as they thought. Of course, the Villeneuve name was still massively revered in F1 and always will be quite rightly. It still did pack up punch. I don't recall that Ferrari rumor, actually, at all. I'm not surprised because you can imagine you're at Maranello and in Gezzetto and Courier, Delas Sport, how much they'd be willing to have a second generation Villeneuve in a Ferrari. I mean, that would have just been all the Christmases come at once. But in regard to JV's performances, it was clear he was a really special talent. I mean, you don't beat Michael Andretti, Little Al, Paul Tracy, Bobby Rahol in your second season in Indicare without being supremely good. And the manner in which he did it was also really mature for his age. Don't forget, he was 24 when he won the title in decar title. And he's racing against these guys who've been doing it for decade or more, some of those. It just happened really quickly, didn't it? From that point in '95 when Pollock was in the pit lane and the Paddock at Montréal too, what was it Augusty was in the car at Silverstone? Wasn't he testing it just happened really quickly? So yeah, but on the whole, I think the Villeneuve story has a little bit of the name, but I think more clearly that what he was achieving in Indicare just thrust him into the F1 radar. Good answer. You can come back in the next series. Let's get on to the race then. The grid order was pretty standard for 95, Schumacher on Paul, ahead of the Williams' of Hill and Cool Thard, the Ferraris of Burger and Elacey were next up in Herbert, 6th in the second Beneton, and Hacken and 7th in the lead McLaren. The Jordans were going well with some updates on their cars with Irvine and Barrakello, 8th and 9th ahead of the second McLaren of Blondelle. Schumacher held on to the lead at the start, which the eagle-eyed among you will have noticed is still the image we use in the background of the Bringback V10's logo. Everyone made it through the first couple of corners, cleanly, not always a guarantee, in Canada, but there was Lap 1 drama later on when Hacken and Herbert collided at the hairpin. An extremely angry Herbert accused Hacken and was trying to overtake from a silly position, coming from too far back and trying to make the past too late. Johnny said, "Micka appeared from nowhere, the only way he was going to get around the corner was to hit me, and that's exactly what he did." Hacken and said he felt he'd break late but not too hard, and he blamed the contact on the track being damp in that area, so he couldn't avoid Herbert. To make matters worse, their cars then got stuck together, and it took the marshals a few laps to clear them both, where Hacken and Carl was stuck in gear and was left just off the racing line. At the hairpin, under yellow flags for a couple of laps, which even at the low speeds of that hairpin looks utterly terrifying if you watched this back today. But Johnny, let's focus on the incident. Was Herbert right? Did Hacken and come from too far back? Yeah, I think it was all a little bit half-hearted from Micka, wasn't it? Uncharacteristically so. I think Johnny certainly leaves the door open by taking such a wide line into the corner, but then I think he only does that because he's looked in his mirrors and seen how far back Micka is going to the corner. Then it's almost this apologetic slow-motion attempt from Hacken and Redie, isn't it? Before you end up in that comical two-car lock-sick lock, it always looks so awkward, doesn't it? We know from later on in his career that Micka wasn't immune from the Oblastake, brilliant driver, though he was, and I think this just has to go down as one of them, really, doesn't it? Yeah, there are some angles where you look at it and you think, because of what you've said there that Herbert did leave the door so open, you sort of think, "Ah, there is a gap, he's kind of there, but I think you're right, it's an apologetic attempt to move, maybe." If Hacken had been a bit more assertive, he'd have got further alongside, but yeah, a clumsy accident, however you want to look at it. There was more drama on lap 2 when David Kulfard spun at the end of the back straight when he lost control over a bump on the brakes under the bridge, that's kind of in the braking zone, just for the turning point to that flick right and left. Kulfard had the battling for Ari's just behind him, and he said he was trying to break on the limit to keep them at bay. said the track might have been slightly damp under the bridge, but he said he'd been struggling with that. corner all weekend anyway. So he did take responsibility. Sam, one thing I noticed in a lot of the responses we had from our audience to the opening question was people talking about CoolFard or A Williams constantly throwing it off the road in 95. Do you think just focusing on DC? Do you think he made too many mistakes in 95? Well, you can't get away from the fact that he did make a lot of mistakes, but I reckon there are some cases for the defence for DC on this one. The first is that it's easy to forget how quickly he was thrown into arguably one of the most difficult situations ever seen in F1, effectively replacing at the centre in such dreadful circumstances the year before. He was only 23 years old then, don't forget. He'd only had I think seven races in 94 with a car that was still being understood when he first got in it. For 95 people, also forget that he actually outqualified Damon Hill in three of the first four races including a pretty brilliant poll at Argentina. His brace of DNFs at that stage was I think mostly well was completely technical issues on the FW17. The second point is just to make that he did have a bout of tonsilitis which I don't know if it was reported at the time where it came out subsequently in books or whatever you. But at the start of the season, he wasn't firing on all cylinders. He actually had an operation just after the Canadian race to have his tonsils removed. So that's not a bona fide or excuse, but it is a medical fact and certainly didn't help things at that stage. Then I suppose as a broader point, his mistakes were so stark, so embarrassing and in public, you know Montreal going off at Monza on the formation lap, the pit lane infamous pit lane shunter Adelaide, they seem to almost count double because they were so vivid in everyone's mind unfortunately for David. You know, don't forget that across the garage actually Damon was making just as many well probably just as many clumsy mistakes that season, particularly Silverstone and the Monza shunts with Schumacher going off on his own at Nurburgring as well. But yes, he was criticised for it. But I just thought the balance of criticism for DC in the context of what I just mentioned was maybe a little bit too much. He didn't make mistakes, but I just think overall where you look at where he was in his life and his career, I think he could have been cut a little bit more slack. Yeah, as you say, he was only a year into his F1 career by this point and he'd had to sit out a bunch of those races in '94 for Nigel Mancell. Things didn't really pick up in this race for Williams from there. Hill was struggling in the other car and he spent the next phase of the race being hounded by Alacy and Berger in the Ferraris. Alacy eventually pounced on Hill at the hairpin when Damon got held up by back markers and then nine laps later Berger was through as well, pouncing on a scrappy exit from turn two by Damon and Gerhard put a forceful move on him at turn three. So the Ferraris were up to second and third behind Runaway leader Schumacher. Johnny, we know Hill wasn't happy with his car as we'll come to next, but just looking at the racing, the wheel to wheel racing with the Ferraris, should Damon have done a better job at fending them off? Well, he didn't fight them very hard, did he? Clearly Damon wasn't very happy with the balance of his car and in fact he was something he struggled with all year, wasn't it? Watching it back, it almost looks like another era of more gentlemanly racing, doesn't it? Giving you a moment of space and so on, the way kind of, certainly with the Gerhard move, I think he was very kind there. The Alacy move obviously with my bias, I'm going to say it was a brilliant opportunistic move and throwing it up the inside, executing it very well, making it look easy actually where obviously Mika hadn't before. But yes, Damon being extremely polite, I'd say something which I'm sure the Ferrari pit will be very happy about, but perhaps Frank and Patrick maybe not so much. Hill would move back up to a distant third when Berger ran out of fuel and had to coast into the pits for his scheduled stop, but a miserable day for Williams was complete when Hill's car broke down in front of the pits after 50 laps with a hydraulic problem and he stormed into the pit lane clearly showing his displeasure. Hill called his car dreadful to drive, while Kulfard said the Williams was undrivable all weekend. Damon said Williams had a lot of work to do if he wanted to fight for the championship and he said the handling was so bad that Williams needed to go testing to see what could be done about it. Frank Williams tried to play down Hill's displeasure in public. Frank said, "We win together and we lose together, it's a team effort and when he was asked about any tension with Hill," he said, "Daman may have a problem but we do not." Sam, do you think Frank was trying to remind Hill who was boss here? Yes, subtly, quite subtly, but it was classic Frank in a way, wasn't it? The meaning behind what at first looked like fairly mild words, whether he deliberately did it or not, I don't know, I think it was just intrinsic to the way that Frank operated at that time in particular. But, you know, Damon had emerged with clear leadership tendencies in 1994 and was kind of forced into them in only his second season, of course, after Senna's death. The problem was that by '95, those were kind of unraveling and whether that was a consequence of the difficulty he was having like Montreal and just the difficulty of getting on top of that FW17 and some of the reliability issues, that probably was all part of it. The problem was that the unraveling of some of those leadership skills were clearly playing, I think, on Frank's mind. The way he vacated his FW17 on the pit straight as Euseglen was quite sort of theatrical. He wasn't a happy man. It does over displays of emotion. It's kind of a little bit contrary. Frank loved the, you know, some of the drama of Senna and some of the drama of the types that he had in the '80s like Ross Berg and obviously Mansell was a whole new experience of drama in many series, but in many seasons. So, but then some characters, he didn't like to see it. You know, I think he thought Damon as a sort of the stoical Damon and the kind of, you know, the stiff upper lip of his father kind of, it was almost like Frank had portrayed Damon as a sort of straight linear line from his father, but of course, he was a very different character to his old man. And I just think those reliability issues, it wasn't in their reaction, but I think Williams could have handled them better. And I think Damon probably could have handled that disappointment a bit better to say that Damon Hill had tantrums. I don't know if that doesn't sound right, does it because of who he was, but it looked like a small thing going on there. Driver disappointed by a reliability issue in a retirement and losing a bit of momentum in the championship. It didn't seem like a big story at the time, but I think this is one of those classic occasions where actually it affected the future for Damon to some degree. Yeah, there's maybe a window into something we weren't quite aware of at the time. And I think the word tantrum was probably fair in this case. It was very undamined Hill, the kind of histrionics as he got out the car and walked across, walked across the pit lane. It wasn't a lazy, monza 94 spec, was it? I mean, that was a whole different cyclone of tantrum. But it was, yeah, for Damon, it was, yeah, thanks for that, Glenn, thanks for stamping that with tantrum. That's fine. Am I right in thinking he didn't actually looking back at the highlights? We didn't actually hear from Damon. We heard Tony Jardine on the BBC, this is, we heard Tony Jardine interpreting Damon's words. So I always took that as whether to be the expletives in the interview for the BBC to broadcast it, you know, again, very undamined like. Yeah, there were reports at the time that he'd kind of, he stomped through the garage and shouted some things at Frank and that that was maybe what motivated Frank's comments just to try and calm everything down. But yeah, we didn't hear much from from Damon, but they appeared to be a lot more to this. And yeah, not something you saw very often from Damon Hill, but eight laps after Hill's retirement, the decisive moment of the race happened when Schumacher's car suffered an electrical problem. Schumacher got stuck in third gear and he described the car as chugging along and you can clearly see if you watch it back. You can see in the footage and hear that the car wasn't running cleanly. So I think chugging was a good description. So Michael chugged back to the pits where he changed steering wheels and was able to rejoin the race in seventh eventually finishing fifth. This was the moment that handed the race to a lacy in the closing stages. A lacy had been 30 seconds back and watching his fuel consumption very closely as he'd already decided Schumacher was out of reach. Schumacher said it was well deserved for a lacy to become a race winner. And as it was on a lacy's birthday too, Michael joked that he couldn't have given him a better present. A lacy said he became oval. world with emotion in the car once he knew he was in the lead. He said he started to cry, and every time he hit the brakes his tears were hitting the visor. That might be a bit romantic, we'll let him have it this time. Speaking about this win in 2019 on the F1 Beyond the Grid podcast, Alacy described those final laps as the worst of my life because he was so stressed about something going wrong and costing him another win. He also said after suffering so much bad luck when running well in previous races in his career. He didn't care that he'd lucked into this one, and he even told Schumacher he was happy it was the Benaton that had the problem this time. So, Johnny, you can bask in the joy of being an Alacy fan now. Was he entitled to a bit of good fortune by now? Well, the bias Claxon needs to go off again now, doesn't it? So I'll prepare that in the edit. But yeah, I was going to say you can add. But of course he was. I think Sam's already alluded to, I think there's a few people in the paddock, Bob perhaps may be Martin Brondle, who would say his talent wasn't worthy of at least one Grand Prix win by this point, and Sam alluded to some of the heartbreaking misses earlier on. I mean, personally, it's been mentioned already, but Monson 94, I always go back to that race, you know, brilliant in qualifying, great position, leading the race so comfortably, goes into the pits, and as his tires changed and can't get back out on track, and you know, as a fan at the time, that really crushed me, and I know, I know obviously it crushed John, and you know, the famous temper tantrum, I think that was when he got in his car and drove straight back to Avin Yon, still in his race suit. I remember thinking at the time, it's just not going to happen, is it? He's just not going to win a race, certainly not while he's with Ferrari. But I think one thing you always generally got from Jean-Farrellis for all the inconsistencies is that he did generally give it maximum attack, and I think you can kind of see that in this race, you know, those early laps when the circuit is still damp, especially offline, you know, cold tires and so on and so forth. He's definitely seen for the fidget, he's definitely hanging it all out there, and you know, we mentioned the pass on hill, and cool-todd spinning off, and as cool-todd spinning off, you see John, you know, really putting that move on Gerhard Berger, brave move up the inside into the chicane. And actually, when you look back in sort of reading around it, Ferrari strategy for the race was that they were going to give the first pit stop to the person who was ahead in the race. And obviously seeing Gerhard then run out of fuel, you know, you think, well, if John didn't make that move early on in the race, would it have been him that was running out of fuel? I know there was issues with some of the instrumentation on Berger's car. But I think the general point is that yes, he was in title to a good fortune, but he still kind of made things happen for himself in this race, so that, you know, when there was a chance to kind of profit from someone else's misfortune, he was it in the right position to inherit that good fortune for once. Yeah, and I think because this was a Lacey's only win, we have to look at his, let's look at his Ferrari journey, as he talked about extensively in his regular auto sport column the week after the race. He said, winning a race at last represents the end of a tunnel in which I was fighting during the tough years at Ferrari he had after joining in 91 just as a team hit a bar and run of form. He added, "My frustration lasted for 90 grand prix. Very often I got fed up with a team which lacked competitiveness or organization with a car that was so unreliable. I got fed up with having to sell a message of hope before each race which I found difficult to believe in. Many people have criticised me for listening blindly to Ferrari for staying with them against all logic, for wasting my youth and my image, but I knew one day I would get there, signing with Ferrari in 1991 was not a mad thing to do. Since I arrived at Ferrari, I have never changed my way of driving, my way of working, I had to wait for all the elements to be in place. Sometimes I was tired, worn out, demoralised, doubting everything, but I always I was always pushed by a furious rage to come out of this state. Brilliant words there." He also praised team boss John Tott, crediting him with reviving Ferrari and enabling John to flourish. Sam, we've talked about the, you've mentioned the Tyrell years already, just looking at Alessie's Ferrari stint, those five years. He used the word "waste" at one point. Did he waste the best years of his career there? "Well, I think we have to go back to 1990, haven't we, the summer of 1990, that old argument, the age old argument of what Alessie might have achieved at Williams, if he'd have gone with his head rather than his heart. Let's say Mansell had not been tempted back and went off to play golf on the Isle of Manor, Jersey or wherever in 90. And Alessie had signed for Williams. What might he have achieved? Would he have proved the theory that anyone could have won in the FW 14 or 14 B and subsequently the 15? Or would he have not been able to harness the best from the team and himself because of lack of maturity or the inevitable mistakes and so forth? I think the reality is that it would have been somewhere possibly in the middle of those two hypothesis. He would have won race isn't possibly a title. I think that is highly likely because the package was just so good around that time at Williams. It and it rewarded bravery as Mansell proved and Alessie had that in abundance of course. Plus Patraezy was past his best and at that stage hill was still developing so the conditions could have been very favorable for John. Yet at the same time Alessie did always find ways to drop the ball and throw results away, didn't he? So he may not have achieved the level of success that Mansell and prost did and he would have done it in his own way but I'm sure he would have had success there. The bigger point I think was how patient Frank and Patrick and Adrian Newey might have been with a character like John. That's the that's the unknown question isn't it but I tend to think that it may have worn thin sooner rather than later. Also when you look at 92 and 93 at Ferrari he was clearly unable to lead a proper development program with those cars and Berger was also guilty of that in 93 of course. So back to reality now at Ferrari it's absolutely clear that his best years were were wasted once yes but the reasons for that Alessie is not completely innocent. One final point which is I don't think has ever really been sort of dug down into was Alessie's management or rather lack of management in his early career. First phase in F1 was handled by his brother Jose Alessie. Had he been guided by someone like Julian Jacobi or Ville Vabeur for as an example I'm sure his best years or his more youthful years would not have been squandered as much as they were. Yeah I mean when he had the Williams scenario he's even asking Nelson P.K. for advice as well but let's move on to Alessie's old pal Martin Brundel because he was in the wars with a Ferrari again late in this race. Well this time it was the number 28 car of Gail Hodger. They were battling over fifth place in the closing stages when Berger tried a bizarre move on the brakes in turn one where he ended up skating onto the grass on the inside of the corner and just wiping Brundel out. Brundel said he didn't understand what happened. He said he had clearly covered the inside down the street and didn't leave a gap and then Berger disappeared out of his mirrors with what Martin generously called an ambitious attempt to pass him. Berger sort of took responsibility for the clash saying he braked too late and got two wheels on the grass. I don't give it my it had been four and that it ended a bad day for him given he'd run out of fuel earlier in the race as we mentioned. Johnny do you think even your man or lady would have to accept that Brundel wasn't at fault for this one. Oh it was a tough one. No I think even John Mike and seed his teammate was at fault this time. I mean frankly it was a pretty dreadful race for Gail Hodger all round wasn't it with everything that happened to him. I mean this just as he said just smacked of desperation. Turn one in Canada it's one of those where it's not a corner to make a late lunge is it. You're kind of if you're going to make it stick you need to be completely alongside going in there. Even then there's a chance that you might not make the move stick because of the switchback into turn two. So I'm not entirely sure what Gail Hodger was doing. Yeah I'm not sure Gail Hodger even knew himself as we get afterwards but yeah so no not Brundel's fault although I'm sure on John's day of days he probably had a right smile about it afterwards. That's a very good point yeah. Maybe he'd have found a way you know maybe he would say that it was Martin's fault for having the nerve to block the Ferrari pick a fight he shouldn't have been fighting. The race of attrition meant Elaci was joined on the podium by the unlikely duo of Jordan teammates Rubens Barrakello and Eddie Irvine. Jordan had made itself more competitive with suspension changes that made the car behave better over the bumps which is of course crucial in Canada and the team had moved Barrakello's pedals over to the right slightly so he could go back to right foot braking as it had been discovered he was riding the brake on the straights with his left foot. left foot whenever he tried left foot breaking. This double podium was a first for Jordan, and Eddie Jordan wrote in his book that once his cars were up to third and fourth, so even before Schumacher dropped back, each lap seemed to take forever. Both cars were desperately trying to save enough fuel to make the finish, and Eddie said it was more like Le Mans than a grand prix. Irvine made a similar comparison at the time, saying the fuel economy run, which in his case was not helped by ten laps he spent with his fuel turned towards rich instead of lean. Eddie said it felt like a Japanese sports car race. So how agonising was it then to be on the Jordan pit wall and how close were they really on fuel? Let's hear from the man who in Eddie Jordan's words was working like mad on the calculator. Is the memories of the race's very own Gary Anderson? Canada, the car was pretty efficient. The engine did give decent power when it was working well, but it drank fuel that you couldn't believe. So the race was always a challenge for you as far as fuel consumption was concerned. You know, both drivers had to drive in a fuel economy mood to try to make a checker flag with our strategy. But it was good, it was competitive, a few people filled by the wayside, but we had fallen by the wayside before that. So I wouldn't really think it was wrong that we got second and third. Come away from there very happy. It's not often you finish a grown prix and score ten points, which is what happened to us. The biggest thing was that there are PRMA and ProJS PRMA and after this came up and give me a big kiss right on the lips. The happiest day of their life. I mean, this was the result that they've been looking for. Great stuff as always from Gary there and his own wonderful insight. Johnny, how big a result was this for Jordan? Is it just a lucky one or did they show enough speed that weekend to perhaps earn that luck? I mean, it was a huge result for Jordan, wasn't it? I think as he said, it was the time first double podium for them. Obviously it wasn't a lucky one in that, on pure speed alone, they perhaps wouldn't have been up there. If you look at the qualifying pace, but it certainly felt like a big result had been coming that season. They'd actually been qualifying pretty well. Irvine especially, I think you've fought on the grid in Argentina, sixth in Spain. Barrakello wasn't too far off. Irvine, I think, was actually probably looking the quicker the two, certainly in qualifying at that point. Clearly there was performance in the car, even if it only equated to, I think, two points on the board heading into that weekend. It wasn't an entirely straightforward weekend for them. Barrakello had quite a big smash on Saturday morning, which necessitated a fairly big rebuild of the car. So ending up sort of eighth and ninth on the grid was a pretty good result for them. And then of course, despite all the economy running they had to do, they were then in the perfect position to, like Alacia, I guess, kind of, they earned their luck. They put themselves in the position to earn that luck. So yeah, definitely a bit of a lucky one, but a result, as I say, that was probably coming at some point or other through the season. Yeah. And in an era of attrition, there was a lot to be said for getting two cars to the end as well. And if the big boys are going to fall over, you've got to be the best of the rest behind them. So I think a good job from Jordan. And as well as this being a great day for Eddie's team, this was also the best result Perso ever claimed in F1. In a future episode, we'll dive properly into how Jordan ended up getting the French engines when McLaren needed a way out of its Perso deal because that's a great story. But for now, let's just look at the effect the worked engine deal had on Jordan. Eddie said in his book, having Perso on board made a big difference psychologically, never mind technically. It mattered little to me that Perso were actually a McLaren cast off after just one season together. The important thing was that even though the engine might not be perfect, Perso would bring in other benefits to the table, such as an association with Total. That meant a proper involvement and a better class of fuel and oil because Total was spending money and making an effort to be as competitive as possible. Now we had a major manufacturer with technical and financial clout. The timing was perfect. Sam, how important was the Perso association for Jordan's rise up the pecking order in F1 during the 90s? It didn't feel that important at the time, but in the context of where Jordan went in the later part of the 90s, it was significant. I think it was certainly a big culture shock going from Brian Hart to a complicated manufacturer like Perso. I think it naturally took some time for Jordan to adapt as well as Perso from the Clarence to a very different set up team like Jordan. I think Gary Anderson has been quite vocal on aspects of that in various podcasts that he's done with us. Taking as a whole, I think ultimately it was very important for Jordan to show it could work well with a manufacturer and get results. I don't think anyone at Jordan wants to remember that 92 season particularly and certainly if they did it wouldn't be remembered fondly with Yamaha. They needed to recalibrate with working with manufacturers. That was clear. Interestingly, if you look at going back to Eddie's point with Total, if you look at the Jordan in the latter half of 95, it's festooned with partner stickers and sort of random Italian and multiple European bizarre sponsors. What does that tell you? It probably tells you that Persia weren't contributing as much as Eddie wanted them to financially with the deal. I think that was clear and probably classic Eddie in doing some of those deals and making his car or making his team seem as though perhaps they needed more money. That's the sort of thing that really worked for Jordan. I suppose the success that came with the podiums in Montreal and looking beyond that, it was a tough 96. They came to be a real force in 97 with Persia. That period was crucial in the team's history and it kind of laid the foundation for the latter success as I said in the latter part of the 90s. I think the Persia years were vital growing years for the team and I think without them, they probably wouldn't have had certainly the level of success they went on to have with moving on to later on. I think it's pretty obvious that the Jordan years were also Persia's best in F1. Any time in this series where we mentioned the late 90s, any episode we do, we seem to talk about Prost and Persia being slow and falling out with each other and we might do that again before the end of this series. Elacys win prompted huge emotion from the crowd with various links such as the French Canadian population and the Ferrari Gilbert of car 27 connections all making Elacys a very popular winner. After he crossed the line, a scary track invasion broke out almost immediately to the point that even as the Jordans were crossing the line in second and third, they were having to avoid people running towards them up the track. Go back and find this footage, it's pretty terrifying. Just outside of the point, Mica Silos stopped his car before getting to the finish line for safety reasons and he was unhappy that he'd lost a place because he pulled over while Luca Badova kept going in his minority to move up to seventh. You can see on the footage that when Silos sees Badova coming, he tries to get going again to cross the line before him amongst all the people, but Badova gets ahead. In auto sport, Nigel Robuck praised the drivers for behaving extremely responsibly in the circumstances, but he was highly critical of Badova and said the Italian deserved "sanction of the severest kind". Eventually the result was changed by declaring the order based on the positions at the end of the penultimate lap which dropped Badova back behind Salo. Johnny, once the positions were swapped back, should Badova have been punished for racing on to gain a place during that track invasion? Well, yes. As you say, you look back at the footage now and even all these years later, I've still got my heart in my mouth. As you see the fans cross the track, it's frankly terrifying and just incredible that no one got hurt. If you were to look at something similar happening today, I think you'd see the driver getting a considerable penalty, probably a multi-race ban or something similar. But then again, if it happened today, it would kind of play out in the court of public opinion, wouldn't it? It would be all over social media, people would be sharing the onboard camera footage, alongside increasingly angry comments, and I think that would then put the FIA and possibly his team under considerable pressure to act on it and do something about it. As it was, it seemed like they gave a bit of a wrap on the knuckles and moving back a bit of a position which ultimately probably was a bit insignificant anyway, given the points paying positions and kind of swept it under the rug. So, yeah, one of those where it seems remarkable when you look back on it today that there weren't wider implications really. Yeah, it's not pretty first-aid, it wasn't great from the fans. I suppose in the modern era, if that happened, there'd be an instant virtual safety car or something declared. as well so all the drivers just cruise back. But yeah, when you see how many people are on the track and I have to say when when I read the comments from Salo, I did think that Mika kind of portrayed himself as a saint but he did kind of make a racing getaway to try and pull back across in front of Badoa. So not entirely innocent on his part either. I imagine he probably got maybe a message on a radio or something, but I was coming, go go go. Yeah, not great. People just appear to be finding gaps in fences and that sort of thing and we have seen tragedy of course in post-race track invasions in Canada more recently. So let's leave it there and I imagine that's the first and surely the only time an episode of Bring Back B10s will finish with a question about Luca Badoa. Thanks to Johnny and Sam for joining us for this one. We've got one more regular episode to come in the series before we take your questions and then finish off with something a bit different for our final episode but before then we move on from one Ferrari driver ending a long wait for a first win to another. As next time we are revisiting the 2000 German Grand Prix, a race best remembered for a man walking down the side of the track and Rubens Barrakello finally claiming his first at one victory. The Athletic