S5EP20: RACHEL WILEY

(upbeat music) Welcome to the poetry questions, T.P.Q. 20. Will we sit down with your favorite authors to talk about passions, process, pitfalls, and poetry? My name is Chris Margolin. Let's expand the conversation. (upbeat music) - Well, I'm so glad that we could finally connect for a time to talk about it. - Oh my gosh. - I'm so sorry. - That's all right. You know, we both, I think we've both had a couple like missed dates at this point. So this is awesome. I'm glad to finally get to talk with you. - I think so. - Yeah, I absolutely appreciate your work and have always. So let's dive right in. We always like to start off T.P.Q. 20 by saying, we know who you are, but our audience may be new to you. So if you were to give the bio that, you know, we won't find on the back of a book or on your website, who would you say you are? - Oh man. You know, we'll start with a softball. - Easy questions only. - You know, just summarize yourself. That was a person. I am a fat femme living in the Midwest. I'm a scorpio, I'm vengeful. (laughing) And I think my work on terror flex. (laughing) - I think that's fantastic. - Yeah, that's all I got. - We can start there. I'm sure I'll dig more out of you later. So here we go. So the first video, at least I can find a view, is the 10 honest thoughts video. Who are you now from where you were then? As far as, are you the, more important, I guess the question will be, are you the poet you thought you would be? 10 years removed from that piece? - Absolutely not. (laughing) - Where did you expect it to go? In 2012, where did you expect poetry, what did you expect poetry to even be for you? I had no idea. I truly thought it would just be years and years of trying to get published. (laughing) I really, when I wrote that poem, I really never thought about it being seen by more than the slam community. - Right. - I never thought I would have ended up in half the places I have, the festivals, the colleges. Like, it's mind blowing. So that part alone, and then there's that aspect that, I don't even date men anymore. (laughing) I definitely-- - So all the boys listening to 10 honest thoughts. - Yeah. I mean, if you're a boy with an eye, D-O-I, we can talk, but, yeah, I don't date sisters. (laughing) - Yeah. - So really, it's not even who are you as a poet anymore. It's you are a different person. - Oh, yeah, I tried it. You had different person in 10 years. Jesus was the same. That would be the most important warning in the world. But yeah, the changes that have happened are like, yeah, I definitely didn't see that coming. - Ah. Well, so for you then, who was, who were those early catalyst poets for you? When you were a little kid, and you maybe first, I kind of thought that, maybe there was this thing where you could put words together and it kind of sounded cool. Were you someone who was being read certain pieces, were you finding books where you just thought these sound really cool together? Who were those early introductions for you when it came to poetry? - So I learned how to read on an old copy of a light in the attic, finally enough. - I love you. - I love you. - I was shell-slow-rusting. Was big in my house, and they were these, his books were some of the only hardcover books we had. - I feel like I've never seen them in paperback at this point. - Yeah, probably not. - 'Cause we all, I'm sure people, of our similar generation, like we all have copies of that tattered somewhere in our shones. - Yeah. - Yeah. So, and I liked to play school, and I liked to use the hardcover books, and then eventually I started learning to read on light in the attic. And like I just, you know, I don't think at that point, I was just like, oh, I'm gonna be a poet. I didn't think about being a poet until well into my 20s, but poetry had always sort of been around. So there was that book, there's a book of poetry by Eloise Greenfield, called Honey I Love. - Okay. - And that was one of my absolute favorite books. I would check it out all the time from the elementary school library. Yeah, I think I just liked the rhythm in it, but I didn't have the language for that yet. I was just like, I like this. This holds my attention. And I was like, you know, it's interesting. - And that's, that's, that's, I think at that age, that's the goal of the, how can we hold somebody's right to go if any age, I can we hold people's attention for more than, for more than a few words before they like squirrel and moving on to the next one. - I mean, I was a, I was a pretty voracious reader, but I was reading a lot of fiction. And there wasn't a lot of like, you know, rhythm and movement. - Right. - The way there is in poetry. 'Cause my stepfather was a librarian, so there were just, - Oh cool. - Ridiculous books, just different amounts of books all over. - I love that. My dad's always been a book collector, but, but of Sherlock Holmes. - Okay. - I had one type of book there, but yeah, I mean, I jumped into books pretty early on, but yeah, I don't, I didn't, it took a long time. I've been like a light in the attic and some of the early nursery rhyme type things took a long time for me to, to find my way to, to what I think, you know, was more poetry, what I understood was poetry. - Yeah. Yeah. And then, I mean, in elementary school, they introduced us to my angelou. - You got a fantastic elementary school teacher. - I mean, I went to an incredible elementary school, full of brilliant. - As a middle school teacher, I can say. - One of us can know, yeah. - That's amazing. I teach middle school. I don't know many middle school teachers who are, you know, we're starting kids off with, you know, with large voices that, - Yeah. - That's awesome. - Yeah, I was, I was very fortunate. I went to an elementary school that was, primarily staffed and run by just these incredibly dynamic black women. And so they just, they set us all up really well. (laughing) - That's awesome. - Yeah. - They brought in a lot of really cool stuff. Art wise. Like I knew who Bosky I was. I knew all sorts of stuff, but I was just like, wait, people don't know this. Black History Month was a time at my school. - She's awesome. - It was great. - So do you, when do you finally, when do you finally put pen to paper? And is it fiction or is it poetry first for you? - It's poetry first. I mean, I was just angsty in high school. I had been reading a lot of Sylvia Platt. - You were angsty in high school. - I was so angsty. (laughing) I was the angstyest. - Yeah, and I was writing like, you know, secret angsty teenager poems, but I never crossed my mind that I would write as part of my living. - Yeah, it is, it's crazy to think like, I talked to a lot of poets on here about those, those early like, you know, I talked to a lot of the 20 to 30 year old poets, you know, it's the Tumblr poets. - Mm-hmm. - And before that, it's poetry.com before they, you know, poetry daily took over. And, you know, so were you somebody who was hopping on a website or were you strictly journals? - Oh, strictly journals. - Do you have them still? - No. (laughing) No, I got rid of those little ones. (laughing) I figured if I left them at home, my mom might blackmail me with them. - Oh. - And I didn't want to schlep them, so I got rid of them. (laughing) It wasn't anything good. (laughing) - So when it comes to timelines, 'cause timelines are always fun, because some people take six months to write a book. You know, the pandemic was such a huge writing period for so many people, 'cause we had literally nothing else going on. So, you know, but for you, like when we look at revenge body, - Yeah. - When was poem one written versus one was your final edit sentence? When did you feel that the, when did you feel that you were, that that book had been completed? - I mean poem one was written before nothing is okay, came out. - Oh wow. - So like I finished one collection, and then the next set of poems is usually feeling out what the next collection will feel like. - Oh. - I like that way of putting it. You're feeling out what the next collection is gonna be like. That's, I think that's a good way to look at that. And I mean it also changed. it evolves like revenge body was supposed to end a lot softer than it did. But some shit happened. I was like just let it rage let it. Let's just let the book be angry. It's fine. Soft landing are only necessary once a while. Loudly. Yeah, when I started it, I was in a very different place. And then when I finished it, I turned in my final edits. Trying to think about time. Time is so screwy for me. Um, I'd square for everybody. I think it was like June. June of 2021. So really just a handful of months before before finished eight. Yeah. Nice. Well, that's, and given that that's a fairly long span. Do you feel that you were, you know, from poem one was by the time you were kind of done with things and had had the manuscript kind of ready. Do you feel that your voice had shifted at all or did it kind of all stay true to the same, you know, to that same person or poet you were, was the, you know, that narrator you are. Do you feel that it that it held up the entire time? I do. I think I later added some newer poems that sort of rounded it out a little more. Um, because I started taking a workshop with John Sands and was writing again after sort of, I mean, I didn't spend much of those quarantine and whatnot writing. I was in a rough place. I was, um, getting out of an abusive relationship. Um, so there wasn't a lot of writing going on initially. Um, and then after about life does happen. They're like, you're quarantined. You can't leave this. I was living in a studio apartment in a basement. I couldn't leave. I couldn't go anywhere. Uh, so, you know, yeah, I just, I wasn't in a good space. Uh, and while some people write the most in those spaces, I just can't. Um, and especially in that instance, I was just sorting out so much. Right. Um, but then about seven months in a friend, uh, Sabrina Benham told me about this workshop. John Sands was doing. Um, I got into it and I was just like, Oh, wait, I like writing. But this is, um, John's really great at like encouraging, um, play in writing. And I forgotten, you know, that that was an aspect of it because I mean, I came in through slam. Right. Um, and for me, you know, uh, I was always trying to have a new piece for slam at least one or two. Um, and I was working 40 hours a week and I was just like, it was just a grind. And the writing during the quarantine, like after I got over that initial seven months, um, yeah, it was just like, I really needed to be reminded that it didn't have to be a grind. Yeah. That this can be a thing you do because you enjoy it because I had fully lost sight of that. Um, and this was also revenge body was also the first book I wrote that didn't involve slam. Right. Oh, you know, the other two collections were essentially my, you know, my, my, slam arsenals with other little poems sprinkled in. I've not slammed any of the poems in her revenge body. So that, so that brings up a question that I ask a lot of, a lot of, you know, performance and slam poets, uh, who also are page poets. Um, how is your writing different when it's a piece you know you're going to be performing versus then revenge body where it became just for, you know, so far just for the page. Is there a different mindset you have to have when you're looking at, you know, you know, where your pauses are and your presentation versus, uh, versus, you know, on the page piece. Not necessarily. Um, because I mean, I am, I'm a performer. It's, you know, I went to school for theater. That was my first love. So even if I haven't performed a poem out in public, reading it out loud, hearing myself, hearing how it, you know, how it sounds out loud is a big part of my editing process. Um, so like, go ahead. Go ahead. There's still, you know, um, the out those elements, like I still read it like I would perform it, but I just don't memorize. I can't, you know, I get, I get that I've been, I've been playing music for 25 years and I at this point, I, anything new, I just, my iPad is my best friend. Right. I just can't memorize this anymore. I'm memorizing is yeah. Um, I'd be hard pressed. Do you find this, um, so, uh, uh, Joelle Leon last year, I said when I talked with him about kind of page versus stage, you know, he talked a lot about, you know, what you can, what he can and can't change inside of home during a performance. But I talked to some poets who are, who are really, you know, really out there with changing lines, depending on audience. Okay. I was going to say so how, when it comes to, when it comes to a performance of a piece, how honest, uh, do you stay to the piece itself? I mean, I stay pretty true to it, but ultimately for me, the poem as it appears on the book isn't a finished poem. It's a poem that I'm ready to share in that form. Okay. Um, so I can change them in performance whenever I want because to me, that's a different medium. Um, I love that. I love the fact that it's, that it's, and not that it's a living document inside the book, but that that, that's, that's the version that, that's the version that's in the book. Right. It's essentially a photo of where I felt good about that poem and knew I would read it to people. That's, that's a great, I mean, it really is a great way to think about it, because we, I talked to that, I did, I talked to a lot of translators lately. And we, we talk about how, excuse me, how the translations of their piece, that they write are essentially like cover songs. And how they kind of, you know, they're figuring out how do they stay true to both the piece, but also make it their own. Um, and what, you know, what direction they, they can take it depends on does the word and, you know, this language feel the same in this language. And I think it's, it's, sounds kind of like the same thing, the performance. Yeah, it's sort of emotionally where am I, um, I mean, because you write these things at earlier dates. And then maybe you have new information the next time you read it. And then you're like, Oh, damn. So that's going to affect the way you read or perform it out loud. Um, it'd be really interesting to go back and track some of the earliest pieces you had and watch them over the years to see what lines you added or deleted, depending on how you were feeling that night. I mean, definitely, I've looked over older poems, um, in my other books, and I've been like, I've never said that line on stage. Like either the rhythm just didn't, you know, or I memorized it without that line or something, but yeah, they're different. Um, one, so I've always been a fan of your work, um, as, as have Courtney, uh, so, you know, the poetry question has always, has always loved your work. Um, the last couple of years, though, uh, has found our kid, uh, carrying around a copy of nothing is okay as kind of their, like, when they need to feel, you know, when they need something that feels like them, sounds like them. Oh, my god. It's become, you know, one of their, when I told them just before I was walking in this room that, that you were, that you were the person today, they, they just lit up. I mean, it really, it really is a, as a book that has brought them a lot of, a lot of, uh, you know, happiness when, when they needed it the most. Um, yeah, well, and I think that's one of the, one of the things that I think, you know, people connect with your work because it is honest and you're not, you know, you're not shielding your feelings, um, you know, be, be them, you know, factor fiction, you're not shielding the feelings and emotions on the page. And I think people connect with that both on the stage, you know, especially on the stage where we can watch you perform. There's, there's such a, such an incredible, you know, conversation that's happening between, between reader or walk, you know, or spectator and you. And I think that's something that, you know, comes out, comes out a lot in performance poets, but comes out when, you know, button does a really good job. And I appreciate them as a press because they do a really good job of pulling the people who affect an audience. Yeah, absolutely. And they've, they've always done a great job of that from the beginning. You know, who were for you though, who are those couple of poets, maybe, you know, along the years that you turned to when you needed somebody to read and somebody to kind of hold on to. I mean, without hesitation, Rachel McKibbin. You know, she's also become my chosen big sister. The first time I ever saw her read. I think it was like 2009 or something. My head exploded. I was just like. She and her work granted me a lot of permission that I didn't know it was waiting for. And so like, yeah, she was. She was absolutely instrumental in that. And then also Kristen O'Keefe afterwards. Just because I mean, I'm a funny person and Chris. I know I'm staring at an entire shelf of their work right now. So yes, absolutely. So I was just enamored by her because there weren't a lot of. People who did majority funny like not women who did majority funny work. I've got a quick, I've got a quick funny story about her. So I, I, I've taught for a million years and about 10 years ago, I did a book, a poetry book buying spree for my classroom. But I happened to find a, like a signed copy of hot teen slut at. Wow. And it made its way onto that order. And the receipt with the names of the books had to go through my school district. So I had to, I had to justify, I had to figure out a way to say, no, this was an accidental buy, but they definitely did not understand that that was a poetry book. I mean, Kristen would find that hilarious. And if they ever talked to to Kristen, they would be like, wait, you wrote a book called hot teen slut. Like, um, she just gives like, you know, she gives classroom friendly, like in. Oh, yeah. I don't think anyone would see that coming. Amazing. So now that revenge body is out in the world. What is next for you? What, what is, what is coming up in the world of Rachel Wiley for, for all of us out there? Well, I'm working on two different manuscripts right now. All right. One is like, I don't know, a lot more fun. And I need it to sort of balance out the happiness of the other. It will be coming out on button. We've already discussed it. It's going to be a little different. It's going to be like a fat take on fashion and body. It's going to focus a lot on that. I think it's going to be a little different. Right before I turned 40 this year, and I read it like the day before my birthday, and I was just like. The way she talks about aging, and how it's beautiful and wonderful, and how it's beautiful and wonderful, and how it's beautiful and how it's just like, yes. Well, she talked on there, but they, yeah, the, well, she talked on there, but they, yeah, the, well, she talked on there, but they, yeah, the, the, the publisher turned down her original, the original cover was a nude. I did not. And the publisher said, no. Wow. And her, her, her, and her, her, hope was that this book, because before it was even, as soon as it was announced, it had been banned, I believe she said, in 19 countries already. Oh, and to have that effect on. Right. People would be less scared of you. I mean, you're doing something right. Unreal. I also picked up. Laura Lamb Brown, the way. As a book called Club Desire. And because it's Laura Lamb Brown, the way. You have to like find a book. And she just mails it to you from her farm. Like. We. Um, she's an incredible poet that used to slam. Was on team Providence. With that team was bonkers that year. It was, uh, Jamila Woods, Franny Choi. Phil K and Laura Lamb Brown, the way. She says. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. We went up against them. And finals. It was. I didn't care that we love. That we took four. I was like, these homes were ridiculous. Amazing. Amazing. Um, but her work. Like, I don't think I've ever read anyone who can stick a landing. With the precision. Like. And. Her poems are usually very like nature centered. And that isn't often my thing, but the way she writes about it. Um, it's relatable in a way. And I'm like, I barely keep my house playing to life. Like. Curl your, your giving. So, um, Yeah, that's why I've been reading recently. And, um, yeah, I definitely recommend them both highly. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for hanging out with me on TpG 20 today. This was an honor and pleasure to talk to you. I'm so glad. I'm so glad we finally got. Um, I mean, yeah. Well, I'm we. You're. I said hi. I absolutely will. And we, you know, look forward to the hopeful Northwest portion of the, you know, the, the tour. Absolutely. I would love to get out there. I've never actually been to Portland. It is. Awesome. Well, hopefully we can make that happen. For sure. Yeah. You know, anybody booking out there. I'll definitely be putting it on. Yeah, that's for sure. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And we look forward to coming to seeing whatever comes next for me. As always, uh, have a great rest of the night. Thanks you too. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to the poetry questions. TPQ20. Please like, rate, review, and subscribe. See you next week.