S5E6 — Where Have All the Young Urban Foresters Gone? – And How To Get Them Back with Leslie Berckes of Society of Municipal Arborists

I am a big believer in the answers. No, if you don't ask. If you're younger in the field and you're looking to break in, you need to just ask. You will find in your career that people want to help you more than you realize. Hey everybody, welcome to the Internet of Nature podcast. A place to explore the emerging technologies and the practitioners that are building greener, healthier and smarter communities. I'm your host, Nadine Hulla. In this season of the Internet of Nature podcast, we explore the future of urban forestry. Together with Planet Geo, a pioneering urban forest software and consulting company. I partnered with Planet Geo because they are at the forefront of trees and technology, helping communities around the world map a greener future. Together, we've chosen nine key topics facing the future of urban forestry. In today's episode, episode six, we're diving into the elephant in the room, the skilled labor shortage in a barriculture and urban forestry. It seems like every city wants to plant trees and to conserve the urban forest. But where are we going to get the skilled professionals to plant, care for and maintain trees. To help me understand how we can address this growing need for professional training and retaining a sustainable workforce, I've invited Leslie Berkis on the show. After 10 years as the executive vice president and demoin program manager for trees forever, a Midwest based nonprofit. Since October 2022, Leslie is now the executive director of the Society of Municipal Arbrests. And the SMA, as you'll come to know it, has a huge vision about being able to really inspire and attract this new generation of urban foresters and arbrests. Leslie is also an ISA certified Arbrest herself and she holds a master's degree in public policy with an environmental policy emphasis from the University of Northern Iowa. Leslie and I get into some real practical tips that can hopefully not only inspire, but help people get involved in this field. Because we need everyone on deck and we need it to be a welcoming place and attractive place for many, many more people not only to work temporarily, but to build a sustainable career. So without further ado, Leslie and I will explore how we can reach and inspire the next generation of urban foresters. Enjoy. Hi Leslie, welcome to the Internet of Nature podcast. Hi, thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. So before we jump into today's topic, which is all about why we're seeing these skilled labor shortages and community and urban forestry, but also most importantly about how we can actually work together to get more people engaged and and involved in urban forestry before we get into all of that. How did you personally get your start in urban forestry? Yeah, well, I think I'm like a lot of urban foresters who come at it from a pretty nontraditional route. I don't have a forestry degree. I have a bachelor's undergrad in marketing because my mom told me I had to get a degree that I could get a job in and to me that meant a business degree. That was, that's how you get a job is going through business. And now that you're older, you know, that's not completely true, but at 18 I certainly thought that's what I needed to do. And so I, I just started doing other things went down a different path. I was working for a big insurance company sending out millions of pieces of direct mail. You probably know what is junk mail. And just feeling like that, that certainly wasn't me. I'd always love the environment in 10th grade. I was giving speeches on why we need to save the environment, like striking fear into all my classmates about environmental ruin. A very intense. Here comes Leslie again. Yes, she's going to make us all scared and sad. So that was always something that I really loved thinking about how we could care for the environment because I think I'm kind of person that really wants to speak for the voiceless. Big love of animals, big lover of nature. And so here I find myself with this marketing degree. I apply for a job at the nature conservancy and I didn't get it in, you know, in hindsight, that's a lot of people are applying for jobs. I didn't get based one decision off one job denial, but I did. I said, that's it. I'm going back to school. And I got my masters in public policy with an emphasis in environmental policy. And from there, I kind of found my way into a green building nonprofit after I graduated. And I, you know, that was fine, but I wasn't loving it and come to find this job for people for a group in Iowa called trees forever. And I thought, oh, that sounds cool. I like trees. I could do something like that. And it's the statewide nonprofit in Iowa and Illinois. Like many people who were familiar working with tree not focused nonprofits. I found my way there. And my time at trees forever. I worked with a lot of volunteer groups, small communities in Iowa, most of our towns are 2500 or fewer. So they're very small communities. So we're working with volunteers to plant trees. And then I started working with our local, my local city, the Des Moines, Iowa, which is the largest municipality in the state. And we started doing lots of things together. And that, and that was what really I think catapulted me into urban forestry was learning from them. And I think it's a, it's a, everyone has their own different origin story into urban forestry, like you said. But ultimately it's about finding this urban forestry people, I think to their core are people people. They want to be, they want to help people, they want to inspire people, they want to be around people and trees, especially offer this kind of beautiful catalyst to to allow that work to happen and the whole field of urban forestry really. I know at trees forever, one of the key demographics that you were working with was younger people and getting younger people engaged in urban forestry. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, from my very start at trees forever. And I was there for 11 years. There was always a big focus on involving youths. Even at that time. So that was like 2011 or if I got my math right there, I was really, we were focused on youth from the very beginning. How do we get more young people involved projects? Because I mean, that's the, we're always wondering how we get more young people involved with things. And so it started with just how can we get more people, young groups, service groups to apply for grants trees for everyday, granted a lot of funding to communities. Well, kind of fast forward towards the last maybe five years of my time at trees forever. I had gone to the partners in community forestry conference, which is my favorite thing to do. I feel so energized after going to that conference. And it was an Indianapolis and I came to find out this youth employment program they were doing. And I just thought it was the most wonderful thing I'd ever seen. And so here back in Des Moines, we are trying to plant more trees will rely on volunteers to do that work. And we're only getting certain number of trees planted that way because, you know, they're volunteers. They don't have all the time in the world. And we're for going locations in our city because we were relying on property owners to care for trees in the city of Des Moines. So if it's in front of their house, they're responsible for caring for it. And there's good as it can be because, you know, people up busy lives, if they have the priorities, if you're not watering your house plant, you're probably not out there watering your tree. And so all sorts of things led us to not getting our tree numbers we wanted. Back to Indianapolis, they have a program where they're employing teenagers to plant and care for trees around the city, paying them a competitive wage. And so for that, giving them workforce development training. So not only were they giving them all into jobs skills training of going out planting trees, which is a skill they're learning how to work on a team, another skill they're learning how to show up on time, how to communicate with your boss for, you know, lack of better term, but for their supervisor, how to communicate with one another. And also getting weekly job skills training like resume building where they might go job shadow and I just thought, well, this is great. When not only are we giving back to the young people in our community, we're getting more of our work done. And I was sold or just seeing that. And I said, I want to do that from top to bottom. And I want to replicate successes for many necklace and avoid pitfalls. They've been doing this for years. And I think it's a good model for us to try. And we did it. So we worked really closely with our city forster and Des Moines. And you know, when you say these things, it sounds like it happened really quick, but this took time. It took time to convince the city forster. You know, he just needed to hear it and understand it. Then it took time to convince the public works director and time to convince the city manager. And I have time for them to decide they're going to fund us, but it all came together. And in the end, we had by time I left and it's still going. We'd employed over 80 kids teens ages 14 to 18. They had job training skills. One of the young men that we were working with had gone from just liking trees, planting it as part of a Boy Scout project to all of a sudden having going to school for a forster degree. And so we had a lot of time for the internal with U. S. for service to fight fires and Idaho. So it's just this. That's like an encapsulation of this perfect story to see how we're engaging younger people and showing them a potential path career path. And even if they didn't, I mean, that's a young man as Wesley. That's kind of like the shiny and example, but I always thought, even if those younger people that we're working with don't go into forestry, I would love as they are all little tree huggers by the time they were done. But maybe they their architect or a nurse or I don't know, HVAC install our plumber, whatever they decide to do, they're carrying a little bit of nature with them now and they're carrying a little bit of love of trees or knowledge that they might incorporate into their nursing life and they understand that this connection to trees or or HVAC and saying you should really should really be shading your house in addition to installing a new heating and cooling system in your house. So that that's kind of the path that I saw and was so rewarding to work with those young people. Yeah, I bet and I love what you say there about, you know, great if somebody wants to pursue a degree in forestry and continue in this field as their career. Wonderful, but at the same time it's also about creating this next generation of tree stewards whether they, whether that's something they do professionally or whether that's something in their personal life. That's I think what it's really about at its core because we were we live in a society where we're having rapid, you know, this increasingly disconnected to to nature and that that's not just for adults, but that's for the younger populations as well. We we started this episode highlighting this topic and why this is so relevant now these kinds of programs because urban and community forestry much like many other sectors are undergoing a skilled labor shortage. And this is something that's been going on for years but has been exacerbated by by COVID and many other factors, can you describe even just anecdotally how you've seen the impact of the skilled labor shortage in urban forestry. Yeah, I think going back to trees forever time of trying to hire people for physicians and not getting as many candidates as maybe we once did pre COVID. And so we had someone hired they're not staying for as long and you're spending a lot of time trying to train them up, especially in a position like I just described. So we were hiring somebody to manage all these teens decide where trees were going to go in a city. This probably is going to start sounding very familiar to the urban foresters on the are listening because you're making a lot of decisions about trees in your city. Where do they go, where are they coming from, how we're going to get them into the ground, how are we going to care for them when they're done. Should we even go through with this because how do I ensure that all those things happen. And I was in that position and we're hiring people to make those decisions. And so once you get someone there, if you're lucky enough to get someone. We were we were hiring a lot of younger people, maybe it's a little well, I don't know that was attracted to a lot of younger people and I think that it takes a lot of energy. And I'm not trying to say anything about anyone that's maybe not younger, but it takes a lot of energy to get out there and do that work and it's a lot of time commitment, you're working Saturdays, a lot of goes into it. So it was not only a lot that need to do, but it was also a little bit of a high burnout rate as well. So we'd get younger people in, they'd work for a little while and then they might move on and it was just really hard because you're now you got to retrain someone and get going again. And I've kind of been seeing that universal across other people I'm talking with of not finding as many people and then I'm not staying as long once they're there. I don't know, it felt like maybe a generational shift of ideas of work. I'm certainly not an expert there, but I think we're seeing some of that. I think it's filtering up into older generations as well with a changing idea of work. I mean, heck, we're talking about four day work weeks now. And I think we'll get there by the time I retire, I think we'll see that in the workplace, but it's certainly we're in the shifting phase and it feels uncomfortable while you're there because what you knew or thought you knew of how to manage people, how to get them in the door is definitely changing. And we don't know what the answer is yet of how to keep them engaged and keep them working or what what we want as older generation as well, because we're asking the same types of questions of what we want and how we do it. So when you say this changing definition of work, do you mean specifically this almost increasing a version to hard physical labor. Not necessarily that, but this idea of how much time do I want to spend my my life working. I hate using the term work life balance, because I think it gets a little overused personally, but how much of my time should I just be spending working as opposed to living and how do I combine those two things. On the other hand, and as I was talking about those younger people that were part of trees, rivers, teen employment program, I think we're seeing younger generation who they're we're all living in a climate crisis and they are going to be faced with this climate crisis more than any of us. And they know that we know the answer about a fix it, we lack political will across multiple glow across the globe to fix it. And now our younger people know they really know how to fix it. And they feel I hope feel motivated to once they get into positions of power, decision making places that they can actually make the changes that need to happen. And I think that a lot of younger people want to have that connection to meaningful work. So maybe that could be some of what I'm we're seeing of people rotating out of the job market, not quite finding the meaningful work that they really want to do keeps them engaged. Lucky for us as urban foresters, I think we have some of the most meaningful work ever to really get environmental improvement done in our cities, not just for people. I mean, certainly obviously when we talk about urban forestry, it's very people focused, but we're thinking about how it connects to water or wildlife. And those are avenues that might bring people in who think about it a different way, maybe they don't come from it from the people angle first, but they love wildlife, they love insects. And this is a way for them to be engaged with real meaningful change. And I think that's one of the most, one of the critical kind of attraction points to urban forestry is the fact that it is it can be very meaningful and it can be very much this legacy work that you get to contribute to a larger small part of and it really means something at the end of the day you're responsible for shaping with the future of a human habitat or ecosystems look like that's a pretty incredible thing to be a part of. And so on the other hand, I mean, if we talk about switching gears a little bit to what are some of the things about urban forestry that can make it a very appealing sector to work in. I think that that's in this era that we live in of eco anxiety as you, as you mentioned and people feeling very much at a loss of of what to do and you know the climbing the corporate ladder just doesn't scratch the edge in the way that it maybe did a few decades ago. And so it's a way to feel like you are using the time that you are spending working in a way that you might want to do if you were spending that time living there's an again that work life balance I agree with you it's an overused term but I think ultimately meaningful work is finding something that that you love that pays you and that society needs that idea of the Japanese idea of Ike guy I don't know if you've ever come across before. So it's this it's this is been diagram essentially and if i'm describing it correctly it's this Japanese concept called Ike guy there's a book by the same name and it's this idea of you know finding your purpose finding your why is all about finding the thing that the world needs that society needs it in some way that society will also pay you for that work Ike it's valued by our current economic system. And that it's something that you enjoy doing and what is the third one or the fourth one. There's another fourth one that i'm forgetting but essentially in the middle of that Venn diagram is your Ike guy and it seems like urban forestry offers a lot of those things, especially as we have this increasing investment in urban forestry. What are what are some other key components, if you will, of urban forestry that that that can make it a very appealing sector to work in. I think there's a lot of different aspects to urban forestry, I think, can appeal we talked about some of the tough physical labor that appeals to people some people just want to be out working with their hands. But that often with the teen employees that we were working with and thinking that some of the teenagers we are attracting probably maybe aren't the types of kids that thrive in a school setting. The idea of sitting being lectured to all day is not something that's really appealing to them isn't working for them but being out working with their hands tinkering you'd see them come alive. And you all of a sudden these teenagers would be like directing traffic not not literally but I mean like directing where people should go to get their tree planted or like organizing the trailer and making sure it was more efficient and you could see their minds coming alive and that was the type of thing that really appeal to them. On the other hand you probably have people who are more planners that would love to just sit at a desk, dream up what something should be move the pieces around and there's a lot of planning to urban forestry so that is a definitely appealing project. I think One thing at SMA that I would love to explore a little bit more and help our urban foresters is the political side, the political savvy you need to have to be an urban forster because you're probably not the key decision maker in your city. You're having to influence a lot of people to make decisions. You get asked last on the development project about what should happen or the neighborhood, new neighborhood development project where trees go. You might be maybe a little bit better than last there, but you're still not top of the list unless your city has some really strong tree or environmental priorities. So while I think that's something we could really help our urban foresters think through, that's appealing to some people that influencing and winning the hearts and minds and making sure things happen. So there's a lot of different places to play, a lot of different things, brain power to use within urban forestry. That's probably what draws me to it because I love doing that gamut of things. I'm probably not the person that's like first in line to grab the shovel and go out and plan a whole bunch of trees, but once I'm in it, I'm in it and I love it. I love being physical out there and moving slinging trees around to getting them where they need to go, but also just as at home behind the desk making the plan for where they go or who we're going to talk to. So if anyone's a little bit like me, that's probably why it's appealing to them to be within this field as well. And you mentioned a little bit there, Leslie, your role at SMA. So as of October 2022, you join SMA as its new executive director. Yeah, congrats. First of all, thank you. And secondly, you mentioned a little bit about what what division is behind SMA. So maybe for the for people that are familiar, what is SMA, Society of Municipal Arbors, and what are some of the things that SMA wants to do to engage that new demographic, that new generation of urban foresters? Yeah. Well, thanks. And it was September. So I'm going to claim one more month of being on the job. So that's very good. It's that much more tenure. But SMA is the membership organization for people who work with trees, all professionals who work and manage trees within an urban area. I'm saying it that way because our name municipal Arbors might kind of stop people at the door. Historically, we actually had urban forestry within our name and we're having discussions of what that what our name and what should look like going forward and make sure people feel welcomed. But at the end of the day, if you manage trees in a city, nonprofit, a city employee, private business, whatever it might be, that was what our organization is therefore is to build that networking, build camaraderie, build your competence so that you feel more capable of making all those decisions. Just what we were talking about, the gamut that runs a tree work within a city, a quick side story, one of the young women that I had hired at trees forever. I just really remember her saying one time, I had no idea how much work it took to get one tree in the ground. You're driving down the street and pops up and you think, "Awesome tree." Then you get into it and you think, "Lot of work." That is what SMA wants to help with, help you understand all those pieces and make sure you feel more confident to get more trees in the ground and more trees cared for. The other day, that's what matters to me and I know that's what matters to our urban foresters. Now we have the backup from there and that's what I want SMA to do and what our board wants SMA to do. If I want more trees in the ground, what do I need to do? I need more managers of trees and then that means I need more educated managers. Either they're going through a two-year, four-year apprenticeship program, something that gets them ready to get hired to make tree planting decisions. I want them to feel more empowered while they're there. I need to start SMA. We need to start advocating for them at a higher level to public works, to parks, national parks and rec association, to city managers associations. Those are the people, their bosses that will say, "Yes, we can hire an additional forester or additional staff for you. Yes, we can fund an urban forest master plan. We'll make it work in the budget." But it's easier for that forester to make those arguments if an organization like ours is somewhere else talking up the promise of urban and community forestry for them. That's where I start seeing this kind of web. It's all again, the center of it is more trees in the ground and cared for what does it take to get out from there to make it happen. SMA has been around since 1964 in a very steady presence since that time, but with new leadership, like you didn't have to be me, but I'm happy to be here, but anytime you have some new leadership, it gives some new energy and ideas for how things happen. We're in a historic time for trees. It's never been a better time to be in the tree business than now with more money coming at least in the United States. I think globally, we're seeing more push towards green infrastructure and trees with trillion tree campaigns and million tree campaigns. You name the number. Someone said a goal to plant that in their city or their country. And this just raises the profile and gets more attention toward the work we're doing. And I really hope our foresters are ready to seize that. It's tough. You've been working in a reactive environment for so long, just responding to things people are telling you now you get a chance to be proactive. That's challenging. That's why I want SMA to be ready and helping those people think, how do I change the lens? How do I be more proactive with the work we're doing? Because I have the money, at least in the US, money now to do it, or I have more attention on it from different global initiatives to get more work done. Hey everybody, thanks again to this season sponsor, Planet Geo. Planet Geo has a suite of software and services all designed to shift the urban forestry conversation from hypothetical to reality. See the link in the show notes to learn more. And now back to the show. On that note, actually, later this season, I'm talking to Chad Daly of American Forest, specifically about this $1.5 billion federal investment that's going into community and urban forestry, which is a massive amount of funding compared to what the average was previously. We were looking at, I think it was an average of like 30 million per year that was going and not even a million dollars per state. And we're seeing massive growth in federal investment in urban forestry. That's ultimately going to trickle down to the municipal level. One of the big things that I know Chad is really passionate about is specifically how can we use that funding to really drive this next generation of urban forestry and have massive job creation in the sector. How do you see SMA playing a role in this era of a $1.5 billion investment? Yeah. Well, truth be told, we're trying to figure it out as well and talking to a lot of partners of how it should happen. We are probably just as guilty as other groups. And guilty's maybe not the right word, but being in a reactive mode for so long. And now you get this chance to play in a big space in the place where you get to make big decisions. So for SMA, it's some basic level or maybe you should use that word, but just as a start, we're talking with partners. If maybe we should just be a regranter so that we take in some of that funding, take away some of the federal burden from the people who are actually going to do the work. So they can just get out there and get the work done because there's a lot of eyes to dot teased across when you get into federal money or any money for that matter. So could we help with that take off that burden and then just let them go do their work. We're also thinking about how we can tell stories more. And I keep coming to this idea where we talk about doing case studies to share examples of what people do across the country and world. I know our urban forces want that our members want it. They tell me they want to network with one another and learn from other groups because they want to be the premier program. Every city wants to be the premier program. And I love it so much. How do they learn from others to do that? So that often comes to a case study. But those can be kind of flat too. Like, this is an awesome thing. You should do it too. And then you're left saying, yeah, I do think that's awesome, but I don't really know what the next thing I should do. So I want us to explore that more and think about what's the step after a case study. How do we really help you implement it? Maybe it's pulling together a bank of coaches that could help coach you through the next step. And they're retired foresters or they're they're just really savvy in their work now. And they could coach you through a few of the steps. I talked about the political savvy. I want I think SMA should be thinking of how they help urban foresters be more politically savvy or how they help influence more. Some of that comes from our municipal forestry institute, which is our training program, leadership training program for urban foresters that teaches them how to have a leadership mindset when they're in their role and you're influencing from the bottom mostly or trying to lead from behind, I guess I should say. So that's some of the route that we're thinking we're partnering with a lot of organizations. We're talking with individual states about how we might be able to pilot work in their their state and take it nationally. So that's just some of the work. And one thing we haven't really discussed above all, everything we've done, we've done a lot of things. doing we're having put a very strong diversity equity and inclusion lens on everything we do. We want it baked into the work at SMA. We want it to make sure the people who run and work with SMA are reflective of the future of now and the future workforce of urban forestry. And I think that's going to be one of our key things that changes our industry. It's seen more women, more people of color within the work and starting to reflect that. So we have a changing demographic coming up through across the globe, especially in the United States, what people look like and act like it's changing. And we're going to have very diverse workforce. So we want to make sure we're representing that. And people feel comfortable once they start coming into this work that they feel represented that they feel heard. And they can make the change that they need within their communities or within their communities, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And we've talked so far a lot about what SMA and other associations like it, what this federal investment means. We've been talking very much about how all of these different efforts can trickle down to hopefully then engage this new workforce. But maybe let's switch gears a little bit and let's speak to perhaps it's the younger listener. Perhaps the listener that is looking to make a career switch. Perhaps it's the listener that has been involved in one area of urban forestry and is looking to make a switch to a different area of urban forestry. Let's speak to them now for a minute and talk a little bit about what are some practical tips that you have for them in terms of getting hired in this new field. And yes, you know, there's a there is a labor shortage. But that doesn't mean that it's necessarily easier to get hired. Do you have any practical tips for them? Yeah. Some of this might just be some anecdotal from things that I've experienced over the years. And then just thinking more broadly about what we're seeing in the field. And so, if you're younger in the field and you're looking to break in, you need to just ask. I you will find in your career that people want to help you more than you realize. People love to help and they don't do it because no one asked them to or no one reached out to them. So looking through your LinkedIn file or connections or just starting to think more broadly, spending 15 minutes thinking about the connections that you have and asking, could I talk to you for 15 minutes and being specific with your ask or you certainly type for some general discussion for having something that you want from somebody and just do it. People want to help you. So reach out to them. Think about who's within the field now. Reach out to me. Reach out a bit to some of your listeners or people you'll have on the podcast and they will want to help you and help you connect because we all want more people within this field. I think there's certainly going to be no substitute for having some experience. So while you might not have a forestry degree or maybe a strong science background or the thoughts we have as traditional background, but again, back to the beginning, I have a marketing degree. So I certainly didn't have that background. I just kept pushing and saying, I'll come volunteer for you. I'll come, I'll do whatever you need. I'll do the marketing or I'll come plant trees. I'll be there. And that just kept building my credibility and showing that I was serious about the work and that helped get me into the industry as a whole. I guess that's some of the thing that my mind, is there what ideas come in your mind? Is he think about getting more younger people excited? Yeah. Would you have any, do you have any practical tips in terms of resumes? So I know that we've, when we've connected in the past, we've talked about that organizations should be a little bit more realistic perhaps on what they have on a job description and changing around, you know, for example, this this demand for a four year degree. Maybe that's not something that fits the, you know, the the profile of an average person looking to get into urban forestry. Can you can you speak a little bit more on that? Yeah. At trees forever, we had changed our resume requirements to say, I think that had the language exactly correct was a four year degree preferred but not required. We might have been said like a two year degree preferred but not required because we wanted to think more about how someone might have come into the industry thinking about trying to get more diverse applicants into our position. Sometimes just have requiring a four year degree is a barrier to getting in the door. And so that that was one thing we had changed. Personally, I had applied for a city government job as a city forester and it required a four year degree and you're certified arborist with before you started. So I had to go rush out and get my certified arborist to even apply for it. It was $200 on my pocket plus all the time it took to study to get that. So that would have been a major barrier to someone who can't afford that or the time it took to get there but you might have been able to get it on the job. Yeah. And so I didn't get an interview for that position because I didn't meet the qualifications and I think I could have been okay. City forester, I could have learned on the job but again, I didn't get an interview for it. And so if employers, cities want to be thinking about how to get more people with a new story, they're really going to have to be critical and thoughtful with what requirements to even get resumes in. And I bet people are thinking about that now as they're seeing lower resumes coming in or just not seen as much as they'd like. So I think that would create a lot more opportunity for non-traditional people to come in, people in diverse backgrounds to try and open up the doors more. We want you want we want you here. We've got to make it easier. How I have a question and I'd like you to ask answer it from both sides. So how on the if you're looking to get into this field, you don't have the degree but you have a big passion, you've done some volunteer experience or what have you, how what is the best way to show that on a resume or to show that in an interview and vice versa as the interviewer for the person that doesn't have the degree and the qualifications and the certifications per se on paper, how can you still find out if this person might have interesting skill sets or passion or expertise that he or she has gained in a different way that can still be very relevant for the job. How can you extract those non-academic skill sets out of someone? Yeah. Well, I think for the person who doesn't have the traditional four-year degree but has been volunteering or doing the work, it probably is something that is as simple as making sure it's on your resume. Maybe it's sharing some additional photo or some story wrote since we're seeing so many people on creating content in so many different ways. Maybe there's a way to add that to your resume to show the work you've done. I was always a big believer and maybe you're not the person out there who wants to dig a hole and plan a tree but you're a good great writer or great photographer or some other aspect and how you could tell the story of planting trees and that might be really beneficial in a position. And so while you might be willing to dig the hole or do the work, you might get in the door first because you were a great writer, whatever it might be and you could show people your passion in that way. So I'd encourage people to do that and also not being afraid to reach out. We're still going to be in the area of it's who you know a lot of times. So being willing to make those connections and talk with people to either reach out and ask questions that you are more informed during an interview or maybe they'll help you make a connection with the higher person hiring. And if I was just going to add, if it's a non-profit that you're looking to get the job out of that non-profit is organizing volunteer tree planting days, go to all of them. You're right. Be there. Be active. Introduce yourself. Talk to people. Chat with people. Be helpful. Be resourceful. I mean that I think that's like a job interview. Yes, I'm 100,000 right because there you are. You're more or less like in a similar role that you might have. You're just not getting paid yet. Right. Right. On the hiring side, I was a big fan of asking situational back base questions and saying, giving an example. The mayor of Xtown hates trees and doesn't want them to plant it because they drop too many seeds and someone rolled their ankle and now they're cutting down their trees or they won't they're not allowing tree planting in the right of way. What would you do in that situation? And several times people had zero idea, but just hearing them process that question. And again, I'm coming at this from the interviewer's side. So I'm thinking about an organization hearing how they process a question is painful because the poor person's like, oh my god, why do they ask me this question? I have no idea. But they're probably giving you some clues talking about how they would handle it. And now you see if they have the background or the emotional intelligence, which is so key in this position of how they're going to handle that position, that situation. And that that told me a lot. If they didn't have a four-story degree, that told me how they might handle it. And now I know I could train them or work with them on the next steps. That's such a good tip. I like that. I think I mean, I think that's something a lot of interviewers could probably use. I was thinking to back to the back to the interviewee side of things. This is something I heard was a very different sector. This was specifically in graphic design. But a friend of mine really wanted to get a job as a graphic designer at the specific agency. And she took a very, very forward approach that at the time I was like, yikes, I don't know if that's going to work. Basically, what she did is she took the entire, you know, house style, the logo, the branding of the agency itself. And she went back to the drawing board and basically redid it and explained in a letter why this new and improved style does a much better job and why the previous one didn't, you know, didn't check all the boxes that it should have. Now, that's a that's a very forward approach. I mean, you could, I mean, you can send that up and, you know, just get, you know, the door slammed in your face. But in her case, it worked. It really it showed it showed her personality. It showed that she was, she was not afraid to stand up for her design choices and to stand up what she thought, what she thought was was right in this particular, in this particular case. And and she ended up getting the job. So they changed their design that I don't know that I don't know. It's a good question. I'm then I'm trying to think here how we could make how how that could be a metaphor for something in urban forestry. You know, I'm not saying you don't you don't want to go in and tell people they're doing stuff wrong. And this is how you would do it differently. I mean, that's a little, that's a little testy. But maybe there's a little lesson to learn from that. You know, it's a really great, for example, what could work is let's say, again, it's a nonprofit. And you see that they have different, you know, social media accounts where they're communicating about the work. And you feel like with your writing or your photography or your storytelling skills, you know, you could share those stories in a more engaging or attractive way. You know, right up some posts, give them some examples of how to do that. That might be a great way to also, you know, get your foot in the door in a very creative way. And even if they don't agree with you as long as you do it in a very open and fun and, you know, not too insulting way, it could be really useful. Well, yeah, I think showing people that you have initiative, some of the skills that we talk about having a forestry degree, or I guess that's more education, wonderful. But it's those skills that people are looking for. Initiative, hard work, willingness to speak up. You see so many young people, I was the same way, like nervous that people didn't want to hear my ideas. I also thought that I was like pretty hot. Like I was really, you know, like a lot of young people who think you're probably a lot better than you are at that point. So, you know that. I remember those days, no, over those days. What is that saying? The more you, the more you, the more you know, the less you realize you know, or something like that. That's definitely true. Oh yeah. Well, so I think I'm coming at that from two ways. So younger people feeling like they don't have a voice, like they can't speak up. Who am I to say something? Well, you have somebody who's like desperate for you just to speak up or get work off of their play. I know I felt like that. I was getting to a point where I just need someone to help take some work off my plate. And not once someone spoke up, but yes, love that idea. Let's do it. You run with it. I think that helps younger people who also want to have. You want to feel like you're getting work done. You want to feel like you're contributing, especially at a young age. And so, I think that goes to the younger person speaking up, getting things done, and then the person who's maybe more than that, I don't know, supervisory position being excited. But I kind of, not quite what you're saying there about speaking up about a social media account. I'm really intrigued and would love SMA to explore more of this reverse mentoring. Mentoring by nature makes you think that there's someone higher than you who has more experience, more power for lack of a better term right now. And they're they're going to guide you on your path. We'll sure that's there's always going to be a place for that. I love that. I love thinking that there's someone who's going to help me see what the path is going forward. But this idea of reverse mentoring helps us see what the next generation wants, especially beneficiaries, we think about trying to be more diverse in the workplace, learning from more diverse younger people than where I was working previously. And so trying to understand and learn from them, take what they're saying and being open to it. Because if you're not open to hearing what they have to say and doing your own self-work, to be ready for that, you're not going to it's going to make them feel stymied, you're not going to get the work done. So I'd love SMA to be thinking about this reverse mentoring. Our student membership is the largest growing membership piece at SMA. Every day we're getting tens of tens of students joining SMA. And so it's growing rapidly. Our organization's going to be thinking about how we engage young and emerging professionals and how we hear from them of what they need and how we make sure the industry meets their desires. Yeah, absolutely. And that's great to hear that it's growing, especially amongst the youth and younger demographics. It's fantastic. What something was, if I asked you, what's something that's still, when it comes to engaging this next generation dealing with the labor shortage, what's something that still keeps you up at night about this topic? I think it's the changing ideas of work, changing demographics, or not demographics, changing generation. People not staying in the workforce as long different ideas of work that really was weighing on me at trees forever, feeling like we're not on the same page with what work looks like anymore. I've seen that with a lot of trepidation because that every generation's done that, right? Like these kids who are these, I don't want to be that person at all, but I does really feel like we're in a time where things have shifted so much. And we don't know what the answer is yet. We're going to look back in a few years and it's going to be very clear to us what happened, but we don't know what's going on right now. And so trying to keep people employed, trying to keep them at your job long enough, so that you're able to get the big work done. That kept me up at night at trees forever for sure. And I hope I don't know what the answer is. So eager to hear from others what they're thinking as well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and with this, an invitation because that leads me actually perfectly into my next question, which is where can people connect with you and SMA online? Yeah. Well, certainly connect with us on LinkedIn. It's a great place to connect with different your professional peers on LinkedIn. And then our website is urban-forestry.com. We're doing monthly learning series. We have programs that allow for our Bristol Exchange or mentoring support. Our municipal forestry institute is doing training for the leaders, our next leader current and future leaders forestry. And overall, we're just taking a new strategic direction. You can find that on our website as well. It can connect with me personally on LinkedIn, Wesley Berkis. And we'd love to just talk with you more and see how SMA can support you, how we get that goal more trees in the ground and more trees planted. And we've talked a lot during this episode about ways to engage that newer generation of urban forest just coming into the field, how to make this field an attractive one to people that previously weren't in it. But I just want to give you a moment also to talk about some of the resources that SMA might offer or that you know about side of SMA that also work towards retaining a sustainable workforce, one of the things that you were mentioning before that such a challenge. Yeah. I think some great things we're seeing from our partners like Sustainable Forestry Initiative. They came out, I cannot think of the name, but it was seeing more black faces within nature and how we get more African-American black people working within our environmental community urban forestry. Was it outdoor afro by any chance? That's a nonprofit I know of. That's doing that work, but I cannot think of the name or this publication that they worked on. So I was a really great one to be connecting with recently US Forest Service reached down to me about trying to find someone from Latinx community to be talking about how you engage with Latino Latinas and working with them to get more more representation from that community within tree planting within our work. So I think some of it's happening. We see I in a national society of our borr culture focusing on women in our borr culture, especially thinking about tree service and that kind of traditional mindset of you need to have it's physical labor and you're going to have to be really strong, you're climbing trees and this isn't a place for women to be and we know that's not the case, but we need to see more representation from females to be able to identify as female within urban our borr culture and tree work. So I'm seeing a lot of it. I think it's changing. I think it's shifting. I know it doesn't feel as fast as it should, but I will look back and we will see the shift and I think it's happening. So those are some resources. ISA, SFI, a sample forestry initiative. I know Arbor Day, SMA is thinking about how we engage more young people and people in diverse backgrounds. So I think it's happening if you don't feel like it is reach out and we'll work with you to make sure we're being more inclusive and thinking about how we engage the next generation. And I'm wondering too, one of the things that you mentioned about this, this changing definition of work, what can organize organizations like SMA take away from, and even municipal governments take away from that. Is it about working with employees, finding, you know, a better balance between offline and online work, a hybrid work setting, for the terms to hours, more flexible hours, differing, maternity leave. What is that? What might that work, so that the great people that are in this field already stay in this food? Yes, all of those things I think need to be part of it. It's tough when you're in a city environment and you're, what can you do when you've got, the rules are the rules, your city's got things set up a certain way, but it might be trying to out for more flex time as you can, maybe you're bending the rules. I don't know, not allowing that time for people. I think not only is it just that idea flex time and allowing your life and your work to be one or figure out what it looks like, it's allowing people to have that meaningful work, and if they have a project idea, work it through with them and let them do it. One thing I was seeing with some of the younger people we're working with was a lot of anxiety about taking on some of those projects, so I wasn't something that I had cracked yet of how to help them feel like they were empowered, but for me it was letting people take on a project. Perhaps fail at it and understanding that that was okay and we're walking alongside them so that when or when that happens, what's all happened to us, helping them navigate that and figure out how you might pivot for the next time? Absolutely. I think ultimately it's also just about listening. If an employee comes to you and says things on the home front are changing, so I'm in a different season of life now than I was five years ago when I started this job, things on the home front are changing in that regard, or I feel like I could take more initiative and this is a way that I want to do it. When an employee has really gathers up the courage to be able to say that to their employer, listen to them because that was not, that took a lot of probably practicing and standing in front of the mirror and practicing what they would say before they actually come up and say it to you. So listen to that and work with them to find a potential solution. That doesn't necessarily have to be the solution that the employee has come up with it. It could be something else entirely, but at least don't shrug it off because that's when people get in their head and that's when people come up with an exit plan and before you know it, they've handed in their letter of resignation. And then you're shrugging your shoulders like, how did that happen? I didn't see that coming. Yep. Yeah. And as the employee or employer, sometimes that's hard. Like you had an idea of what should be done or you're backs against the wall because you've got a boss and you've got things you're dealing with as well. So giving yourself some space to maybe not react right in the moment or listen and say, I'll get back to you. Make sure you get back to them then. And giving yourself some grace too because it can be hard when you've worked that hard to get things done and someone's telling you, it can come across that they don't like your idea or they think it needs to change, but you can take some courage to listen to that too, but giving yourself some space to do it would be really beneficial and you're all going to grow that way. Definitely. Definitely. Okay, Lizzie. I will leave you with the last question that I ask all of the guests who come on the show and that is what does the Internet of Nature mean to you? Yeah, I think because we're talking about urban forestry and I'm sure a lot of people say the same thing is that connection between people and trees and that innate connection. For me, I am such a lover of animals that I mean, it's all that web that we've together have seen a bird. I'm not I live in an urban area. It's not like we've got some exotic birds here, but you see that that makes my connection to trees. You see how excited somebody is when they see we're planting a tree and all of a sudden, like literally the volunteers are out there and bees are swarming that tree immediately and you start to see that connection of how we're all connected to nature. So I'm sure a lot of people give that answer. It kind of comes across that way, but it's that innate connection to trees, wildlife and people all connected together. I agree and it's this I think that human connection is really at the heart of today's episode as well. We've talked all the different practical tips and theories and labor shortages and hiring practices, all these different things that we've talked about really ultimately at the end of the day are about relationship building and building up that connection with people and finding the courage to listen to each other, even when it's difficult and hopefully using all of that to work towards a future where we have a lot more people engaged in this beautiful discipline. Yeah, I agree. It's been great. Thanks for having me on. Thanks, Leslie. Thank you for listening to the Internet of Nature podcast. Want to learn more about the Internet of Nature? Subscribe to my newsletter at nadinehalla.com. I'm looking forward to bringing you another great guest next week. As always, remember to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a review if you learned something new. The best way to support us is to share this episode with a friend or colleague. Season five of the Internet of Nature podcast on the future of Urban Forestry is brought to you by Planet Geo. See you next week. [BLANK_AUDIO]