S5 Ep3 | CRAFT with Chris DiTullio

Hi, Jeff. Hi, Christine. In a moment, you'll hear from makers, and they are talking about their craft. And then you'll hear from a person who helped them make it happen. That thump that Kyla is describing is a bolt hitting the cutting table. Fay still makes as much as she ever did. She drives further now and pays more, and it's worth asking what she's driving toward. Because it wasn't only the materials that moved, the know how moved. Where do you learn how to set us leave or fix a bobbin or pick a yarn that won't buy us on you? For a long time, the answer was an employee in an aisle who had been there 20 years. Now it's a shop owner who dies her own, a guild of six people around the table on a Tuesday night. We had to find our own ways to do it. The store count says the same thing from the outside. There are more than 31,000 fabric and craft stores in this country, and that number went up 2% last year. More of them, smaller, but closer to home. Joanne sold materials at a scale nobody could match, and that was a real thing to give people. Mastery may not have been on the shelf. But Joanne or anywhere of its size, Mastery is what makers organize around now. And it's local, it's shared, it doesn't scale the way a plan of Ram does. So I grew up with a group of very crafty people that my parents had made friends with when they were in college at Michigan State. And the main hobby that they connected through was medieval reenactment, which meant that while you're hanging out with your friends and talking about how your day was and what your plans were for the weekend, you were doing it in medieval outfits. When I'm making medieval outfits and what we call garb, that's for some reason a much more authentic and it's a different vibe than making costumes. And I can't really explain it, but a big part of it is because garb is focused on trying to figure out how and why people were doing things in past ages by living it, by experiencing it. And the stuff that I've been made as a costume looked really good and looked very medieval and was completely non-functional. So it scratches two different itches. It scratches the itch of how can I make something as close of a facsimile representation of something else that I've seen. And then the other part is how can I account for the problems and experiences and needs that I'm going to have when I'm in this outfit and design a really clever outfit around it? Oh, that's wild. So how do you find and get stuff to do this? Great question. It used to be a lot easier, especially because our big event is in the summer. I had summers where my mom and I were going to Joanne Fabric's twice a day because we realized we need more buttons or we're out of bias tape or that thread doesn't match or I need more lining or interfacing. And it was actually a really cool experience. Like, oh, I deeply viscerally miss the thumpa, thumpa, thumpa, thumpa of them unrolling. It's deep in my soul and I haven't found another place to get that. And going to Joanne's meant you were surrounded by people who were probably in the middle of a project. They were doing the thing because it's just like going to a hardware store. Like you go there, you know, you go there the first time to get the materials for your project and you go there the next eight times because you forgot something or you learned something and then going to the store and seeing other people who are doing the same process of like, I'm trying a thing, I'm learning, I didn't do it right, I feel like cultural space that disappeared. I don't have a lot of spaces now where I can go and I know that most other people there are also probably like ripping out seams and swearing and thinking like, oh, I can't wait to make this and then halfway through like this is no longer made with love. And then the end is like, I was triumphant, but we don't go to Joanne's to be like, I was triumphant. You went to Joanne's to be like, I am starting or I am in the middle. There are a few independent businesses near where I live now that do like sewing classes and they do have some fabric, there's like quilting shops, it all became really focused. It all became really fractured of you can go to a place but it has to be for the specific way that you plan on crafting. The best thing I can think of doing is actually finding a hobby like the one I'm in because you can find like my group of people and they all do stitching bitches or craft nights or like there's a regular like come over to my house, we're all going to sew night. You kind of have to craft your own crafting fit but we took away the individual entry point pretty swiftly. They, we've had so many conversations about making that want to start with this renaissance fair thing. I've seen pictures of you and your fiance and your dog dressed for the fair. I remember being so upset that I was not getting a handmade princess dress for the rent fair and my dad came to the rescue, he actually made me something to wear. My father has been a really huge influence, am I sewing, am I making journey. When we talked recently, you mentioned to me that you were on the hunt for golden silver plethora. Oh gosh, yeah, while we were out talking about that, Joanne's had come up, you know, RIP. I'm worn Joanne's every day that it's gone. I did find gold and silver plethora, but I had to drive 45 minutes out into Amish country to find it at a big warehouse. So it's become a little bit more difficult to make the things that I want to make. But nevertheless, we persevere. My mom got me into everything growing up, she's always been a sewist. She made my clothing up until time I was like six. She constructed all of my skating costumes and she would spend hours on end dazzling them then, too. Lots of swearing was involved in that growing up, watching her mend my clothing, make clothing from absolutely nothing, like hand-tracing the patterns, taking my measurements, everything like that. But yeah, she got me into upcycling and she got me into the process of understanding that clothing is always going to be made by someone and that it needs to be nurtured. And it's our due diligence to keep extending the life of that article of clothing, making sure that it doesn't end up in a landfill. I've always been scrappy and into more kishy stuff, like found media. So when I went off onto my own and with the longer under my mom's wing, having her tell me what exact materials I needed, the nostalgia kind of wore off for Joanne's a little bit. So going forward and going to more of the small businesses in like Amish country, like you said, or on Redding, there's a giant fabric mark, too. Yeah, I went to a place called Zynx, I think it was out in Hummel's town, which it was incredible. I absolutely loved going there. I guess when I say I'm more in Joanne's, I'm more in the convenience of it all. It was so great to be able to go out there and just find what I needed super quick and get out of there so I can get back to the making instead of having to drive an hour one way to hope that they have something that I need. When I went to Zynx, I was talking to my fiance afterwards and I was like, that place is exactly what I thought it was going to be because I walked in and I was like, hey, I need this thing. And the old ladies, they were like, what do you need it for? So I showed them the project and they were like, you're asking for the wrong thing. The old ladies that sew things are an invaluable resource because they know everything. I can't wait to be one. Yeah. And we're seeing stuff now, especially in Lancaster where we all live. We have active maker markets. How did they fit into what used to be, you know, Joanne's never really occupied that space. They were never the outlet for goods. It's kind of bittersweet for me because like I said, the convenience is gone with Joanne's being gone, but on the flip side of that, I have found so many incredible small mom and pop shops or like locally owned indie owned companies to buy my things from it fosters such an incredible community to have these kinds of retailers that, you know, they're owned by someone I can run into at the grocery store. Lily, can you name drop some of the communities where you actually work? You had mentioned to me, you moved away from Etsy and I want to understand why you moved away from any of you. Etsy. But sort of who's filled in that gap? So, yeah, I mentioned to you that I moved away from Etsy and deep up to mostly because of drop shipping and how impersonal stuff had become and how kind of deluded the market had become for actual artisan pieces. It just doesn't foster a community for creativity, so when there's local, I live right downtown Lancaster and there's places like Curio and Snake and Skien that are both amazing and both hold community events. Curio is the reason that I have 13 new hobbies. It's amazing being in an area like this. For you, this whole notion of quote-unquote "retail" is not about buying. It's also very much about community and information exchange and this sense of being a part of something. I'm really excited to welcome Chris to Tulio to our conversation. I met Chris when he was the chief customer officer at Joanne and I led a consulting project focused on visual merchandising improvements. He went on to become the interim CEO of Joanne and as of now he's consulting focused on building, fixing and leading businesses. Chris, welcome to Retail Done Right. Thanks, Jeff. It's great to be here. When people tell the Joanne story, what do they get wrong? Yeah, I think the biggest misconception that was out there and is out there is that that Joanne had this aging customer base and that sowing was this dying craft. Whether I talk to banks or investors or even friends or professional acquaintances, that was always the comment. Oh, you know, Joanne must have gone away because people just aren't doing that anymore and that really, as you guys know, that couldn't be further from the truth. Unfortunately, Joanne went away because of some ugly realities of capital structures and debt loads and the relevance of the brand was there. We had millions of deeply, deeply loyal customers who loved the brand and stayed with us through the last day and even after. It was a healthy brand that had some unfortunate financial realities that cost it to exit. Who was the Joanne shopper really then and what do you know about her or him that outsiders never saw? Well, that's exactly actually what you just said there is one of those things. When I started walking our stores after I joined the company and the company at that time and this was in 2005, 2006 was only talking about her and certainly the female customer was the most important customer and the majority but what I learned in talking to our team members and walking our stores is good. A lot of men in our stores and the research ended up telling me about 30% of the Joanne shoppers were men and they were doing lots of different fiber crafts. They were doing lots of painting, woodworking, all of those things which we carried the supplies for and so when we went on a journey in the 2015, 2016 timeframe was really to better understand our customer and what we found was that switching to what motivates them, what motivates you as a person to do these things versus a demographic, your gender, your age, we learned a lot more about our customer. We learned that there's this community of people who love to quilt so net they teach they have small businesses so when you ask about who the Joanne shopper was, it was people that did all of these things. Making your first Halloween costume for your child was the entry point for many for sewing. That's what we heard from Kyla. The first thing she said was that of unrolling fabric and once you hear it you know exactly what she means. Yes and I think that fabric bar or the cut counter as you said was really the heart of the store. It was that really leaned into the heritage of Joanne or the history of Joanne. It's how you gather around a table. Exactly exactly very much. It is and all of our customers knew the names of the team members that worked in our cut counter. You know when you would be on our stores it was you know hi Pam hi Susan hi Joe and everyone knew each other and that was a really interesting part of the Joanne experience. And from my experience in your stores they had I think the most tenure and the most expertise resolved around that fabric. They knew where every bolt was but is there something Joanne did for makers that nothing has replaced yet? Jeff I think it's community is how I would answer that question. If a physical human present community Joanne wasn't just a store it was actually something they called their happy place. We did surveys and we did research and our customers would use that phrase over and over again. Why do you come to Joanne? It's my happy place and they didn't care about the shopping plaza. They didn't care about the age of the fixtures or the paint on the walls. They knew when they walked in they knew that they were part of a community of employees and fellow customers that all had something in common. There was you know to use the phrase there was a common thread there and you know I think when I look out and retail today there's a lot of companies that put fabric and yarn on shelves and they declared they're in the business but what I don't feel like people have figured out is that truly winning this customer requires more than just having the inventory in your store. It's hiring members of the community who were just as passionate about the making and the creating and the activity as the customers who were walking into buy. It takes intention takes effort to do a community of makers because the people that were helping you were makers themselves. It's exactly right. Here's the tension I keep running into. The makers tell us that they're making more than ever but they're also monetizing it and so while making is up the big box craft stores are down. How do you square that? Is this a category story? Is it a retail model story? Yeah Christine I agree and I think it's more of a retail model story not a category story and to your point making has never been more relevant whether it's the wellness movement the DIY economy. Gen Z wanting to make to personalize their look in their spaces and the craft big boxes aren't necessarily designed to facilitate or really engage that customer in the way that they're looking for but make no mistake the category is up Gen Z is making their crafting their knitting their sewing all at higher rates than any generation since the baby boomers. You know one of the things that we saw in the past was that there was a dip because the Gen X time frame schools stop teaching these skills. Oh you're right. There's no more home act. Well it's not only there's no more home act there's far fewer art classes too. Exactly exactly so the industry did have a dip because we kind of lost Gen X a little bit in a way but then the reason why Gen Z is come back so strong is that people are still motivated to create and make but now Gen Z has tools that the other generation didn't have. They've got TikTok they've got Instagram they've got YouTube they've got all of these places digitally that can help them with skill building and inspiration and now they're looking for retailers that can pay that off in a way that is differentiated. So I'm going to ask you the $64,000 question so if you were building fresh today with everything you know what would you build and what does a craft store have to do to still be standing 10 years 20 years down the line. Way to go Jeff asking six questions in one. Yeah I know I know I know it's like the kitchen scene question. And can you say that in 30 words or last please? I will do my best. So it would be something smaller than what I see out there today. The real big box is the skew warehouses if you will. They're not inspirational they're not motivating to this Gen Z shopper that's not what they're looking for. I mean they they want obviously accessibility to the supplies that they need but from an environment standpoint they're looking for something different. Space for not just education but space for collaboration and that's what we kept seeing in our research is that they didn't necessarily want to come take a class on knitting necessarily but they wanted a space of hey I'd like to bring my knitting guild in to your space and we want to be able to make and create here and engage with each other. And so I would have a space for that kind of engagement you know I'd be connecting with local colleges and local seamstresses and tailors and people like that so that they could bring their businesses sort of into the ecosystem. So really connecting locally having a space for creativity and then having a curated your disortment. That it was a lot more directed towards this type of customer. - Lily, one of the people I spoke with brought that up as well. The newer local entries are smaller, they are more niche and they build in not just the making, but also the selling and not just the buying experience. Do you think that's part of the format that survives? - I do, I do. I think that making to sell is a big component of this industry and certainly some of the online marketplaces saw that growth earlier this decade, but many of these people don't want the hassle of setting up an online shop and having to manage virtual inventories and everything that's associated with that. They want to just be able to put their goods out that they've made with love, usually, and be able to interact with people and sell. And so I think having a space that allows those types of activities is how we move forward in this industry. - And as you said, to have that community to say, I'm struggling with this, but not necessarily to have it from an employee, but to have it from another maker, to say, I can't get this to lay flat or a friend of mine actually quills that's the folded papery thing. - You know, one of the things that we found in our research was that customers, what they were looking for when they came in wasn't necessarily just an answer to a question, they can get that online. What they wanted was that human interaction because it helped give them confidence. The element that was missing, that's missing from a lot of the online tools, is the confidence that you get as a human interacting with another human who's trying to help you succeed. - It makes sense, someone like Joanne had the scale to support that in a much, much different way than the guilds and the clubs, but it is that connection to the community. - Yeah, I'm blessed I'm in a guild market, so the PA guild is here, but those classes are sold out three months in advance. I mean, seriously, it's wild. - So Chris, I'm gonna play up on my multi-question questions, and you can take this in which way you want. What do you mourn and/or, what do you glad you got to do at Joanne? - Sure, and the first question there, what do you mourn? That's a pretty easy answer. I mourn the customers, actually, because of what Joanne meant to them, and for many, it was like losing a family member, and you would see it in social media. You still do, as a matter of fact, I try and avoid it, my daughter will show me tick-tocks of people that are hosting in front of a closed door, maybe they're near a street sign that says Joanne, and they're recounting a memory. And so that's who I mourn. It was the millions of customers who really felt that Joanne was their happy place, and the fact that no one is really replicating what Joanne represented to them. I also mourned the employees, the 18,000 team members that Joanne had, who showed up every day because they believed in the brand, and they believed in what we stood for in the role that they played within their communities. And the quick story here is, it goes back to COVID, actually, in 2020. Cloth masks were a good alternative if you didn't have anything else. So while we at the corporate office were fighting for what was known at the time as essential retailer status to keep our doors open in our communities, our 18,000 team members mobilized to create free mask-making supplies for the community with cotton fabric, elastic, and a pattern, which we were able to provide them with. And we gave away millions of free kits in our communities. And if that wasn't cool enough, something else happened, because then our customers mobilized with our employees to start making those masks and giving them away to EMS workers, nurses, police, anyone in their community that was having to interact with the public, that defines who Joanne was from a customer standpoint, from an employee standpoint. And it's why I'll always be proud to have been part of that. That is truly the connection to the community right there. I think I got all of my masks either from makers. I never had the official masks. I had masks that matched everything I own. I still have a drawer full of them just in case. But when I get your insights on this multi-generational shopping and crafting thing, before we started recording, I told you about going fabric-shopping with my mom. All of the makers we spoke with talked about that same kind of a relationship. How do we, how does a store foster that support and encourage those kinds of things so that we don't lose the skills? We certainly saw what you described in our stores from our customer standpoint, right? Generational shopping, especially around holiday time frames. But the other thing that you've reminded me of is what our employee mix was basically retired makers, retired people who love to make. So folks that are, you know, between 60 and 75 say at ground numbers. And teenagers who are working college second jobs after school, high school, like teenagers and seniors. And they loved each other. It was amazing to see those two right, you know, separated generations connect. And they connected because the older generation has something to give. And they're willing to give it without it being like a class or a formal thing. And I remember we had a Cincinnati store where we had a young woman who was going to college and working at Joanne part-time. And at the same store, we had a woman who was at the time having her 100th birthday. My gosh. And the college age young woman ended up making the 100 year old woman a TikTok star at the time. And she would post TikToks of her asking the older woman questions about her experiences, her life, tips and tricks, like all of these things. It was amazing to see those generations, the younger people and the older people come together in our stores, was again part of why Joanne's community and atmosphere was so different. 'Cause you don't see that when you walk out of a retail. No, you don't. - Oh, I love that answer. - It was such a big part of my life. I was there for 19 years. You know, I started with the company when the founding family was still running the business and began friends with them to this day. The company started in 1943 by two families that were immigrants in Cleveland. And we're still running the business in 2005, 2006 when I joined the company. - One more, one more. Was there a Joanne? - Joanne was kind of a combination of two of the daughters names that were pulled together. The very quick story, and this may be sounds funny, but it's true, is the company was called Cleveland Fabrics. And that's 'cause that's where they were founded. - Really not as interesting as Joanne. - Not at all. And they were gonna go up and store in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And at the time, and still to the day, Cleveland and Pittsburgh were big rivals in football. And the mayor of Pittsburgh said, I don't know how Cleveland Fabric is gonna sell in Pittsburgh. That name's not gonna work here. Yes, and so it caused the family to think, you know what, maybe we should have changed, and so it became two of the daughters names that were merged together. And the rest of the story, fantastic. - Thank you so much, Chris, for joining us at Retail Done, right? We hope you'll come back and talk to us about not only where you go next, but your observations of categories as they're emerging. - Thank you so much, Chris. - Absolutely, the pleasure to be with you guys today. - And now I'd like to return to our makers for a moment. They're looking for community, but I think they're also looking for something more. Most retailers are trying to figure out how to get you through the checkout more quickly, or figuring out how to stock a shelf, you know? - It's very profound to understand that knowledge is the only thing you can give away and still keep for yourself. So being able to share what you know and how to make things with the community is the most valuable resource in this aspect of my life. I want to meet people, I want to learn things, and I don't want to learn the TikTok water down version of something. I don't want to pattern because it's easy. I want to pattern because it's beautiful. And even if it takes me two years to make it, I've made it. Money can't buy that. And that's also not a feeling that you can can and reproduce and sell. - No, but you can create spaces that allow that to happen. - I think this whole time, there's been two holes that needed filled. One was convenience and one was community. And now with Joanne's gone, I find that the community aspect that we have all been wanting has had more space to flourish and thrive, particularly in like, I think we're so lucky to be here in Lancaster for this change because Lancaster is already a community that so deeply cares about each other and the community and being with each other. I think that's a fascinating and wonderful place for us to end. It's crazy to me that my mother sewed my clothes too when I was a kid. I think this making community and I think the run fair and I think all of these things where people are just lifting up each other are the product of how hard fought these communities have been by our grandmothers and our mothers and our foremothers for generations. And it's not something that I am willing to ever let go of. There's a very distinct social contract in the makers community that you definitely must abide by or you can't be there. And most of it is make it your damn self. Don't use AI and be nice to each other. Okay. Well, thank you ladies. I appreciate you. There is a separation in making and makers still. Three institutions now do what one big box was never designed to do. There are guilds that teach skill and drive apprenticeship. There are jury shows that set the bar and there are conventions and fairs and other things that give us deadlines to work to. You're right. Of course. I actually submitted photographs to the San Diego County Fair and Del Mar California one year and won a couple of acknowledgements. Of course you did. I still have those photographs with the acknowledgements on the back. And I think you had a dried flowers business too. Didn't you? I did. Christine, we're a part of this. We are yet none of those kinds of entities I named sell. Whatever they sell in quite the same way. Consider all of the event supporting makers. Longs Park, Lancaster, running since 1979, 200 jury artists, 25 categories, 15 to 20,000 people over Labor Day weekend. That's my home field advantage. Philadelphia Museum of Art Contemporary Craft Show. 50th year, this November, 190 juried artists, 13 disciplines, more than $15 million contributed the museum and no sales commission taken. Let's go to the largest, which is the Ann Arbor Art Fair. Largest juried art fair in the country, nearly 1,000 artists, 30 city blocks, close to half a million people over three days. The modern quilt guild has more than 1,600 members worldwide organized into those local guilds. Christine, 16,000 members. Oh, jeez, Louise. That is crazy. And the deadlines dictate the production schedules. But, you know, going back to where we started, New York Comic Con, where Kyla and I know she's been and I know she's dressed up. I've seen the costumes. New York Comic Con drew 250,000 people last year. 250,000 people. In San Diego, where you've been, it's run since 1970. What matters is that a condate and a fair opening are a production schedule. And 250,000 people will see your seams. It's remarkable. Social media helps, the internet participates, but making is still one person and their hands doing something unique. Joanne was invited to many of their tables, participated and celebrated their achievements, but it didn't get them to the next step. As retailers reinvent themselves for the next chapter, it's worth considering where the people are moving to and how to be a part of that. Lily's comments have really stayed with me. Can a national retailer deliver the true community-centric point of view she talked about? She expressed community in a beautiful way. If there's one nugget to take away from this, it's how Lily speaks to community, to connection. I'm not sure I've heard it express in such an honest and real way before Christine. The conversations we've had have been exceptional. They remind me that making is a skill, but being a maker is a business. And the difference, especially in my conversations with Lily, have been around pricing and merchandising and curations. And Joanne never taught that. No big box does. It's not a failing of a company. Is this something that any big box format can hold? I'm not sure, because I think a lot of it is small and local. Even if that means that I don't see your photographs win or you don't see the wreath that I was asked to make for a local shop. Jeff, all of this has made me hungry. And there's a brand new and banana shop in town. Then let's go shopping. Let's go eating yum. This is retail done right. Thank you for joining the conversation. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite platform. And visit retaildoneright.net. And connect with Christine and me on LinkedIn. And follow retail done right on Instagram. We love hearing from you. Warm thanks to our editor, Michael Cook, and our theme music composer, JD Syrawad. There was so much great conversation among the makers today. And we hope you enjoyed it. (gentle music)