S5 Ep. 38 - Dr. Arthur Lupia, Vice President of Research and Innovation, University of Michigan

Welcome to the Michigan Opportunity, an economic development discussion series featuring candid conversations with business leaders and innovators across Michigan. You'll hear firsthand accounts on how the state is driving job growth in business investment, supporting a thriving entrepreneurial ecosystem, building vibrant communities, and helping to attract and retain one of the most diverse and talented workforces in the nation. And now your host Ed Clemente. Hello and welcome to the show. We're fortunate and very excited about today's guest. Dr. Arthur Lupia, he's the vice president for research and innovation at the University of Michigan. Welcome to the show, Dr. Lupia. No, thanks for having me Ed. I know we've talked ahead of time, but you go by skip and I should probably ask right away what you call your skip. Yeah, so I'm a junior. So we needed a different name. My dad was playing Club hockey in Western New York and Southern Ontario and the goalie on his team was this guy six foot six three hundred pounds could cover most of the net without moving. His name was Orrick Manson, but his nickname was skip. So after they unsuccessfully tried art or art or arti or Billy or all these nicknames, they landed on skip about seven days in and I've been stuck with it ever since. It's good name. Well, it's good. You know, and in fact, the best nicknames are ones that aren't really derived or contrived. You know, they're always somehow by a certain dipty. They just kind of come above. Yeah, and I knew big skip passed. So big skip stayed six foot six. I'm like five 11. So it's funny. So even when I was like 50 years old, I would I would still go visit big skip and I was little skip because he stayed six foot six until he passed. So he was friends of your dad and friends of your family. Yeah, he was he was best man. My dad's wedding and live next door to my grandparents. Ah, yeah, and you're from Buffalo, right? I am. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if there's any accident, it's Buffalo accident, it's Buffalo. Let's get to the more serious stuff. Why don't we? What? You know, I mean, it sounds like itself explanatory, but it's not, but innovation and research. Why don't you sort of give us sort of a layman's term of what that means to like the general public? Yeah. So the University of Michigan is in this extraordinary position. We bring people in from all over the state, all over the country, all over the world, to challenge and inspire each other and to work on this incredible range of things. And through the research that we do and through the services that we provide through the healthcare and education, like we literally save people's lives. And we create economic opportunities and jobs, strengthen communities, and we really improve quality of life for people like all over the state, across the nation and some ways all over the world. And it's it's an extraordinary enterprise. You know, the magic of a university is really in bringing people together. But the value of a university is what happens when those people lead each other to think in different ways. And when they do that, they create new technologies. They have new ways of understanding. And, you know, universities like Michigan have been so successful in bringing people together in ways that really change the world. And so it's a it's a special thing. Yeah. You know, I've used this book as a reference. But you ever heard read the book called the Geography of Genius? No, I haven't read that. Yeah. It's actually a guy that writes for the New York Times. But he talks about how why there's been certain epics and history of why genius was created, like whether it's the Greeks or the Renaissance or the Scottish Enlightenment, whatever. But the thing that's sort of itching, he also says, and I think this is what universities do is what you just said is that he used to say like, excuse my French a little bit here, but like it's where ideas go to have sex or what cities are. And universities are kind of the same thing, right? Because they're procreating and meeting new people that you hadn't had in high school or whatever. Absolutely. We have by some measures, we have over a hundred top 10 academic departments here. And that's interesting. But what I think is more interesting is when the world changes and there's new opportunities or new challenges, well, we can do it at university is take somebody from engineering and somebody from medicine and somebody from history and they get in a room together and they help each other rethink what's possible. And that's amazing. All right. That's all of a sudden when you know, you see a problem and the three of those people together can see a technological solution that none of them would have been able to see on their own. That's the amazing thing that happens at universities. Yeah. And in fact, I know we don't want to date the podcast, but you're actually university really a good example that is some of the tech transfer stuff where you've got private sector government and university higher education and maybe sometimes even down profits and foundations who I'll play a mix and you guys are, you have been pretty successful at doing this, isn't it? You've been very successful at this are, you know, we're home to one of the most active university research commercialization offices, it's innovation partnerships and they work with everybody, right? And they both sort of help the U of M faculty who have these ideas, understand what's possible when you work with others, but they also really network with state government startups, established industry communities to just try and you know, how do you bring people together in a room to figure out what's possible, how do you scale it and how do you have it to make an impact? And so, you know, while we talk about the University of Michigan, bringing people together on campus, another thing that a university does is bring people from a region together, kind of gives them a reason to gather and then gives them the capacity to actually turn interesting ideas into real outcomes. Yeah. And I also think another element to that somewhat too is international students too, or even, you know, people from across the country, I mean, it's easy for the Midwest or even Michigan to stay in a bubble and by bringing people from different disciplines as well as different regions who have different experiences, that must also sort of be a real addition to what you're trying to do too. It's incredible. I mean, as a state, Michigan just has just extraordinary people and extraordinary history, great infrastructure, great culture, but research universities like University of Michigan, Michigan State, Michigan Tech Wayne State, and then a lot of the teaching colleges, they bring people in from like every state and from all over the world, the perspectives that they bring, the experiences that they have really changes a lot of conversation. And it puts Michigan on the map. I mean, these universities are not, you know, just famous in the US, they're known all over the world. And so, we are able to get some of the best young minds from, you know, countries on every continent to come here to this region. And it changes their lives, but it also changes what we can do. Right. And some of them stay in the state, they'd like say doctors or whatever, or engineers, and some go back, but then they often sort of repay that sort of experience through like either alumni associations, through like donations or actual work, like, you know, a lot of businesses I know they reinvest in the university, but they still live down in Florida or something, right? Yeah, it's before I became Vice President Research, I was a System Director of the National Science Foundation in Washington, and my part of the agency collected data on all the PhDs in this country, all the people who come from other countries. And so it turns out like the folks who come from South Korea, India and China, those are the three places where the most students come from, 85% of them stay here, the ones who get science PhDs, and they build companies, or they contribute to the big companies they have, and they contribute to our economy and create tons of jobs. And they stay here, I mean, it's really this extraordinary thing where they come here to learn, but then you know, if you look at who the top CEOs are, it's a mix of folks who are born here, and folks who are born in different places, you know, it's been that way in a sense for a hundred years, but now just the range of places people come from is great, and America being the magnet for innovation, the magnet for, you know, where people know you can rethink things, it's a great thing, it's a great home field advantage to have. Yeah, I mean, even if you look at like sort of the magnificent seven in technology that I think half more than half now are not from America originally. Yeah, yeah, and I mean, it's just fascinating that they see the value better than the American see it sometimes. Yeah, no, it's, you know, what people can see from abroad that we sometimes take for granted is how much we are willing to reinvent what we have. I mean, this extraordinary moment when Steve Jobs introduces the iPhone, and if you remember the first press conference, he didn't talk about the iPhone, he said, we're going to talk about three fascinating products, a world-class phone, a great music machine, and a new internet device, and he kept talking about the three and about 15 minutes in, everybody in the crowd realized he's talking about one thing, but the more extraordinary thing is when he introduced the iPhone, he destroyed the iPod, which was their best-selling product, right? They'd sold millions of it, and just in a heartbeat, he turned it into an app on a new untested product. I mean, that's vintage America. Like that's vintage, you know, look at the future, like put things together and create a new way to create value and improve quality of life. There's a lot of places where the battles you would have had to fight to keep the iPod instead of having the iPhone, which is more useful, you know, in this country, we're allowed to have those conversations. And I think in our prep call, I mentioned to you, I finished a book recently, it's a little older, but it was Walter Isaacson's book on innovation. Yes. And he talks about that sort of, and not only into just creative destruction, but it's also like no one really has original ideas, kind of. It's like you're, it's like that thesis, like you're building on someone else's research, and then making it better through innovation, through scale, through volume, whatever, and designing it differently or whatever at that point. Yeah, I can't remember who said it was an Einstein, like the best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas. And, you know, one way to have a great idea is to combine ideas you already have and make the combination something that the, you know, a magic that comes from the combination that wasn't there in any of the individual parts alone. Yeah, and one thing too, and I think this is what universities have sort of maybe replicated or work on, is sort of like the old bell labs or What was the other big one, Xerox? I think it was Xerox or IBM, I don't remember. One of them had another big lab, but I think universities now have stepped in more rather than private sector and they work in conjunction with private sector to get those creative ideas out there and in the patents and whatever. Yeah, that's very true. The private sector in this country does amazing things. At the same time because of their reliance on capital and capital markets, you have to show results pretty quickly. At a university, you can take on a different risk profile and a different time horizon. You can work on a large set of problems and let's just say only one of 20 of them works out, but that one changes the world. A university can have people working on that for 5, 10, 20 years in a way that a company that has to make quarterly reports would have it very hard to justify. So when universities who can take these early stage risks meet with companies and startups who can create later stage outcomes. The combination is really extraordinary. So I think when universities are at their best, they're really feeding that cycle. Yeah, and I think somewhat the sort of limiting of how many companies I like in technology now somewhat has almost removed some risk factors where it's harder for them to take a risk because they're corporations and they're beholden to shareholders. And so I don't think you see that sort of Steve Jobs mentality like you did at one time as much as we used to. It's really hard. I see a lot of the entrepreneurial spirit at the startup stage, but they have to get through the value of death. Right. They have an idea comes up prototype proof of concept and then can they scale it? And that's where a lot of people struggle. But then yeah, when you get pretty bit, there are some companies that I think, I mean, we talk about Apple and you might like their strategy and AI or not, but the number of times they've reinvented themselves is extraordinary. And so to see, and I think forward actually, if you look at the Ford Motor Company and they're moving to electric, they've really, I think, made a great job at reinventing themselves GM some of the stuff they're doing. So we are seeing some agility in the traditional companies as well. I think some of that comes more from like macro competition necessarily, like with China and India and other countries who are really pushing the envelope and we need to figure out how to push the envelope more, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, the competition, it can be, it hurts in the short run, but in the long run, it can be very inspiring and leads to all kinds of efficiencies and like new creations, right? You know, the mother of invention, if you will. You're listening to the Michigan opportunity featuring candid conversations with Michigan business leaders and innovators on what makes Michigan a leading state to live, work and play. Listen to more episodes at Michiganbusiness.org/podcast or download the Michigan opportunity through your preferred podcast platform. Once again, our guest is Dr. Arthur LaPia, vice president for research and innovation at the University of Michigan. So you also not only work for the Ann Arbor, you also have two other campuses you work with too. Yes. Yeah. Why do I mention that, Matt? Sure. We have three amazing campuses. So Ann Arbor is the one people know because this is where the football stadium is. But we have this incredible campus in Dearborn, which focuses a lot on business and engineering. One thing about Dearborn, I go to their graduations. I love Dearborn. 94% of U of M Dearborn graduates stay in the state, are still in state five years up. So it's this amazing kind of, it's a community, it's fabulous. And then we have U of M Flint, which is right in downtown Flint. They have a mix of a business emphasis, some traditional college and they're really being very innovative in trying to mix kind of early stage business perspectives into lots of fields of study there. So they have, they have an extraordinary leadership and new folks have been brought in that I love Flint. Most of the people who go to U of M Flint are from that immediate area, but the spirit of kind of innovation there, the desire to improve the region and change people's lives is extraordinary. So like, I feel like the story of the University of Michigan is best told when we're telling the story of all three places because they're like different products in a way. They like do different things. But when you put them all together, the set of services provided to the state is extraordinary. Yeah, I've interviewed quite a few different groups and things from Flint and, you know, they really fit that old sort of Chinese proverb from crisis, you know, becomes opportunity. Oh, yeah. And I think because they've had such tough times, they've actually are more willing to take more risk than maybe other universities might, you know, just their location, their underserved populations, all that. They really do well in those areas. Yeah. And at a time where a lot of universities are having enrollment issues, they have enrollment growth. They've really turned it around. I think I don't know if they're the fastest growing university in the state in terms of enrollment, but they're right up there. They're really great. They have amazing leadership. Yeah. And it was also going to ask you a little bit about a bigger project. But why don't we talk a little bit about the data center in Los Alamos? If you could give us, first of all, just give us sort of a brief sentence of what it is. And then sort of explain how it germinated if you can. Sure. So the University of Michigan has a relationship with Los Alamos. We've actually worked with them for a long time, but where we're going to build a comprehensive computational research center. So I can talk through what that is, but so Los Alamos, so I'll address the elephant in the room. Everyone has seen their promotional video also known as the movie Oppenheimer, which won all the Academy Awards. So you know, Los Alamos has a storied history in Manhattan Project and helping the country prevail in the Second World War. And so nuclear energy is one thing they study. But like all the national labs in this country, they're funded not by the Department of Fence. Many people think it's not DOD. It's Department of Energy. And so there's all the things this country relies on energy in terms of our day-to-day lives and our houses and our cars and how we move. And you know, energy is one of these things where you can't really create more of it. Like, that's just the physics of how energy works. But you can change how easily it moves around and where it's applied. So the Department of Energy through the national lab studies all these things. But the thing about the national lab is they just focus on energy. A university focuses on all kinds of things like medicine and ethics and philosophy and, you know, and then building things and so forth. So the partnership between a national lab and our university is really great for both sides because Los Alamos has these special types of expertise in these clusters of areas and experts in energy areas where we have experts all over the place. And so when Los Alamos researchers come here, they feel like they're in Disneyland, right? Because they're just all these minds that they can sort of play with. And we just love having them here because they're curious about a wide range of things. So we've been working with them for a long time and about a year ago we expanded our research relationship with them. So now I think we are the university they work with most just because of the match. Now the other part of it that you asked about is research in pretty much every area now depends on computation. So everybody knows about AI. And so to do some really complex calculations to figure out how hard problems and organized these data better, it helps to have really, really big computers, which physically are just stacks and stacks of smaller computers using special chips and special wires that help the small computers work together to be one really big fast computer. So you know, the state of Michigan for all kinds of economic reasons, it'd be great to have a really fast computer here where we can work on all sorts of problems. So in our partnership with Los Alamos, we're going to build two facilities. One facility will be for the University of Michigan as a really fast computer and it will help our researchers do all kinds of stuff. And it's going to be next to another bigger computer, one of the fastest computers in the world that will help Los Alamos do the whole set of things that it studies. And they do like tons of stuff like in terms of its sustainability and like anything you can think of with energy, they do that and it will help them do that. So that's the nature of the relationship. The big computers a couple years off, there's a lot of conversations with communities that have to happen, they're happening now and people have a lot of different points of view. You know, very large computers can organize information and help us realize things in ways that my tiny little person brain can't do that well. And you know, if we have things like that in Michigan, the types of companies that draws here, the types of capacity it gives us, it's a little bit of a game changer. And states across the country are competing to try and have this capacity. And the fact that Los Alamos wants to help put some of that here is pretty cool. Yeah, I heard a podcast recently where I was interviewed with Ed of Anthropic. Yes. And, but he talked about how this is almost like a new space race, some of the AI. And you know, the big differential and I'm not like a China basher, but China's like competition. But do we want the AI platform that might be the new internet or whatever designed by an authoritarian government or by a democracy? And that was his biggest point. He says you'd rather have it much more like the way the internet was controlled versus controlled by someone that's going to control the data, you know, the way they do now. That's 100% true. It's almost like, you know, we're going to create a new, more precise language for business and commerce and research. That's like what a computer is going to do. And the question is, is it going to be our native language? So all the operations or is it going to be somebody else's language? You know, the other thing I'll say, the big one of the big reasons to have a research facility here is the big computers need computational power and energy usage is a big thing. But the other thing it needs is I'm going to use a technical term like a model. So a computer doesn't know how to organize the information that it has. But if you have smart people who understand a problem and they can write some code to say, okay, information like this goes into the in one place information like goes like other place, it becomes like human memory. It stores things and allows you to access it more. And when you have a big computer working on a great model, it uses less energy. to get the same outcome. And that's what the Chinese company that, remember, two or three months ago, there's a Chinese company that did an AI thing with a lot less energy. They used a model. And so, you know, we not only have to lead on computing power in this country, we have to lead on modeling. And one great thing about the University of Michigan is we have the leading university in the country in developing a lot of those models, which again is a reason why Los Alamos wants to work with us. - Yeah, and I've had other guests and I talk about data centers, but is there an advantage in light and sea or is that a reason why you want it kind of close to because, or is it just more about the sharing of the humans interacting with each other more? - It's not so much about latency, but proximity to power lines doesn't matter, right? So, you know, we can, if you have a large computer and it makes an inference through all kinds of means we can transmit it now anywhere in the world without a lot of delay. So that's the latency isn't really a factor there, but when you are basically turning the machine on and keeping it going, the physical distance between a power center and the machine itself matters. And so, you know, the locations are, if it's like invisible to us, but underneath the ground are these main power lines? Like we sort of know where the sewers are, but we don't know where the power lines run. So we have big power lines that run between cities and towns and things of that nature and having a data center near one of those makes it more efficient. - Ah, okay. And we should have done this, but you sort of plug this indirectly earlier, but Brittany Affalter, Kane, who works for the, give me the right name name. Are you a research university for Michigan? - Yes. And you mentioned the floor, but like that collaboration is very important for you as well, isn't it? - It is. This state is extraordinary and it's also kind of big, like spatially and spread out either the UP and, so anytime we can have visibility and work together, it really matters, right? So things like the MEDC, things like the RU for M give us visibility. They build trust, which really matters because when you wanna take high speed, when you wanna sort of think about the future and you need to have risky thinking and put all the ideas out there, if you can be in a room of people who you know are kind of similarly focused on the future and you can throw ideas out there and what if we had a relationship like this and what if we change something like that? Having that focal point really matters. The research university is from Michigan, which if you're keeping score at home was known as the University Research Corridor until recently, change names 'cause there's four of us now, Michigan's have joined. But this is so important to the state. I mean, we have these great minds, they should know each other's phone number so that when a new opportunity arises, you just get on the phone and say, "Hey, you guys wanna innovate together?" - Yeah, and I've had the other universe, in fact, I had the president Kubiak over at Michigan Tech just recently. - Yeah, very great. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was nice to talk to. - Yeah, that's one advantage of this podcast is it's my mind kind of picking guess and I don't always know when they're gonna intertwine but they do sometimes. - Yeah, Michigan Tech's a great addition. - Yeah, also your path has been somewhat different. Why don't you walk us a little bit 'cause you mentioned the NSF, but you also work for two different presidential administrations. How was your path 'cause you went to California and I forgot your other undergrad? - Yeah, so the brief story is, my parents got divorced and I was very young. Winters and Buffalo, summers in Opasso, Texas. Winters on a farm in summers, I worked at places like a steel mill so I had that kind of upbringing, but I was good at math. So I got a scholarship to go to University of Rochester, New York and then I got a PhD at Caltech, which is where all the nerds go. My first paying academic job was at the Jet Propulsion Lab for NASA. I'll tell you about that. And then I started doing work on how people make decisions and complex environments and how companies can gain capacity through credibility, start working with a lot of different organizations to kind of help them, just be more effective at things like innovation. My country called in 2018, I was asked to become Assistant Director of the National Science Foundation, so I did that. It was an amazing job to be able to serve the country in that way. About six months in, the White House asked me to co-lead their open science subcommittee. It's basically how the agencies share scientific data. So every month I would, in the building next to the White House, inside White House security, I would convene leaders from about 30 different federal agencies. And we would talk about exciting things like metadata. And metadata, again, is really important because metadata are these little tags that help people know what properties a dataset has. And because all the government agencies collect data differently, being able to basically have a translation mechanism is important. So we did that. I did that under the first Trump administration and we got a lot of really good things down there. And then I stayed under in the Biden administration for a year and helped them do that as well. 'Cause a lot of data and science stuff isn't partisan. And so many people, they really care about making life better for the country. So I was happy to sort of came back here. They brought me to the research office and one day they named me, "Buyce President." And here I am. Were you part of Warp Speed, even? Or no? No, no. That was where? Was that CDC? I forgot. Yeah, those are CDC. So the White House asked me to help them think about modeling. Remember there was all the models at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And as I've had better capacity there, so I work with folks from CDC in the Defense Department to think about how to make the models better and how to help the government kind of think about where a response would be needed. Yeah, yeah. No, I just remember that reading the way back, but I haven't heard much. It was incredible. Yeah, yeah. And then also just a few more questions for you. As you wish. But also, what other, I mean, you've mentioned quite a few future trends, but I know U of M is maybe doing a project like downtown Detroit, or they're doing some other things. Do you want to kind of highlight? Sure. I mean, there's a University of Michigan Center for Innovation being built in downtown Detroit over by DTE and the MGM Casino. And that's really going to be kind of more learning, experiential, but a high contact with the city of Detroit, both training and critical fields, but in ways that can turn into real outcomes maybe quicker than at a typical university. So that's a, they have great leadership. That's really coming online. I think like in the innovation space, again, our innovation partners does such a good job on a number of things. One of the things they're rolling out that people on the call, they may know about the Accelerate Blue Fund, but it's basically our innovation partnerships unit overseas and it's focused on Michigan-based startups and giving them the advice and kind of early stage support that they need to really thrive. The MEDC has been a great partner in that, funds part of the operation through the Michigan Innovation Fund. And so that, like I love our innovation partnerships unit and they're kind of our innovation face. And they are doing such a great job of listening to what's going on, of building relationships with businesses of different sizes, to try and help the whole state kind of lift each other up so we can compete in a global environment where I think this state is extraordinarily well positioned to thrive. Yeah, and I hear that from, so I do a lot with international groups that come into the US Department of State and they are always impressed with what they see here because they're just hearing stuff from East Coast and West Coast, you know. And when they come to Midwest and they see people actually making things as well as manufacturing and that blend of sort of blue collar, know how with high level programming that you guys are doing in the big three or the automotive industries and mobility and defense contracting, everything going on in this area really surprises people. I think when they come here. It does when I was in Washington, you know I would meet people not only from, you know, the big cities but from all over the world, people would come in and folks would ask about Michigan 'cause they knew I had, I've been on the faculty since 2001, but you're right, when people actually lift up the hood and look at what's going on here and see the, how we've leveraged the history, how we've leveraged the great sort of human and physical infrastructure and are transforming, you know, not just transportation, which people know about, about healthcare and defense and so many other areas. Yeah, the surprise is, I mean, I wish it wasn't a surprise and I think we're doing a better job at that. But and it is the integrity. I mean, I think that, you know, what, you asked the question, what's abroad, what's the stereotype of America? And I think one of the big stereotypes is about entrepreneurialism and kind of, you know, this idea that people are willing to take risks and roll up their sleeves and get a job done and we might take that for granted because it's part of a culture and it's what we grew up with. But it's not present in the same way all over the world. And so I think when people see Michigan and they see that we have that and we're reinventing it and we're the ambition here. Yeah, I mean, I can't say I've ever had anyone that when I actually lifted up the hood and showed them what was going on here, they're like, oh, I thought it would be better. It's like, no, it's like, oh, that's amazing, right? Tell me more. Yeah, I actually have a space at new labs downtown to trade by the trade. Yeah. And I'm always impressed with the people I just bump into there as to what they're doing and the creativity. I mean, it's just surprising. So this question, I know it's probably hard for you to answer in a short time and well, we got a lot here. But is there any, like if you're talking to your 17 year old south from Buffalo before you invented the wings, maybe? (laughing) But what would you tell yourself to go into today? Or what would be a short bit of advice you'd give to the 17 year old skip back then? Yeah, for younger people, the world may look really uncertain, right? You look at AI and you can imagine like, a bunch of jobs that might disappear. But what has happened with every technological innovation at this stage is when you're right at the beginning where you're like, there are all these jobs that might go away. What you can't see at this moment are the tons of companies and industries and capacities that we never imagined were possible and now will exist. So if we go back to the day that the iPhone came out, I mean, could you imagine Uber? Like, you could imagine Uber, right, or DoorDash, right? Or things that we just take for granted, that imply employ millions of people that make a lot of things better. And I've named two of like 10,000 or a million things, right? And so for a young person, I grew up on a farm and I grew up in a religious culture. So it was always about service. And so understanding that, you know, if you are motivated by the desire to serve and you're willing to keep an open mind for innovation, there's so much you can do. There's so much that a young person, even in a small town can do to improve quality life for their neighbors, to improve quality life for their region. And so if they have, you know, sort of the time in a day to think creatively and work with others, the opportunities are tremendous. And so that's, you know, my 17 year old self didn't quite know that. And it's hard at 17 to know that anyway. I mean, but I love the way you put it that, you know, the answer I usually hear from something like that is usually like, well, there's going to be a lot of new jobs. But it's what you just said as a sort of a metaphor is like, who would have thought about DoorDash? Who would have thought about like dating apps? Who would have thought about a lot of things that never existed before? And it's hard to conceive the future until you're in it. And a lot of these jobs, I mean, my son, I have a son. And, you know, he had, I think he has the best job of anybody I know, and he works in a zoo, right? He works with animals. But technology kind of allows all this specialization where he could go to Michigan State, get a forestry degree, learn about nature. And then he like is viable at a zoo, which not only kind of helps take care of animals and the environment, but it gives people this experience. And so I just, you know, I feel like technology enables somebody to do that, which is kind of good for the world and in ways that, you know, maybe when we think about entrepreneurialism, doesn't look the same. But there are all these ways that people can create, all these ways that people can innovate, and all these ways that people can improve quality life for people around them. I feel like technology generally expands our capacity to do that. - Well, I can see why you got the job and congratulations. And I think you are, the open-mindedness that we need more of, period and like in times of uncertainty, as you said. And I really want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to do this again. I guess it was Dr. Arthur Skip LaPiais, the Vice President for Research and Innovation at the University of Michigan. Thanks again, Skip, for doing this. - Thanks for having me. The Michigan Opportunity is brought to you by the Michigan Economic Development Corporation. 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