S5/Ep.02 - Boys and Books

Welcome to Exploring Boys Education, the International Boys Schools Coalition monthly podcast. I'm your host, Bruce Collins. Together with thought leaders and educators from around the world, we'll dive deep into the evolving landscape of boys' education, we'll discuss its challenges and highlight the innovations driving its future. So whether you're a school leader, teacher, parent, or just someone interested in the world of boys' education, this is the place to be. In this episode, we connect with experts, Pujama Thur and Gabrielle Mace about boys and books. Rudeen Sims Bishop, so eloquently opined, that books are sometimes windows, offering views of worlds that may be real or imagined, familiar or strange. These windows are also sliding glass doors, and readers have only to walk through an imagination to become part of whatever world has been created, or recreated by the author. When lighting conditions are just right, however, a window can also be a mirror. Literature transforms human experience and reflects it back to us, and in that reflection, we can see our own lives and experiences as part of a larger human experience. Reading then becomes a means of self-affirmation, and readers often seek their mirrors in books. For boys, Bishop's quote rings true, as they navigate the intricate journey of boyhood, books can serve as invaluable companions. Through stories, they can explore diverse identities, face challenges, celebrate triumphs, and confront vulnerabilities. Books offer boys a tapestry of experiences and emotions, guiding them towards understanding and empathy. When a boy sees himself in a character, it not only validates his feelings and experiences, but also empowers him to embrace his own unique journey. But before we turn that page to discover more, I'm joined by IBSC Executive Director Tom Batty for the IBSC NewsRale. Thank you Bruce, and welcome again to All Our Listeners. You'll tell by my voice that the weather has turned in the United Kingdom. Later in this episode, Bruce speaks with Gabrielle Mace and Pooja Martha about reasons contributing to many boys' reluctance to read, and strategies educators can employ to instill more positive reading habits in boys. Both Gabrielle and Pooja hail from Sydney, Australia. Gabrielle serves as the head of library as signal gusting's college above the manly waves in Brookvale or Brookie to the locals. While Pooja is teacher librarian within the rolling grounds of the King's School in Paramata. Once July 2024 is a good eight months away, more details for the 2024 IBSC Annual Conference at Harrow School in London in the United Kingdom will soon become your way. It promises to be a very special IBSC gathering, one not to be missed. Workshop sit at the heart of IBSC Annual Conferences and I encourage you to consider what you might offer by way of a Harrow workshop to share your knowledge of teaching and supporting boys with colleagues from around the world. Workshop topics must focus on the theme, tradition, leadership, innovation, and address at least one of the conference tracks. Effective teaching practices, school leadership, well-being and healthy communities, digital engagement and innovation, and social and environmental responsibility. The call for workshop proposals is open until the 15th of December and detailed information is available on the IBSC website. We hope you'll join us on the Hill at Harrow next year. Immerse yourself in the warm collegial environment of shared learning and enjoy all London has to offer in the early summer weeks. For now, it's back to you Bruce. We all know that reading is good for boys and I'm looking forward to hearing Pooja and Gabrielle share their insights and expertise on boys and reading. What a wonderful privilege to be with both Pooja and Mathur and Gabrielle Mace. I'm just so excited to be speaking to both of you. You were part of a recent IBSC Ideas Lab on boys and reading for librarians and particularly in that last session Gabrielle where you joined. I was just so blown away by what you and Pooja were able to share about boys and reading and I know in so many schools across the world educators of boys understand the necessity of boys and reading but are sometimes pulling their hair out. But before we dive into the questions, just a quick question for both of you on what you love most about your current library space. And so Pooja, by way of introduction, what excites you about the space that you work in? The most exciting part of my day is to get to the library and say hello to my coworkers because I do believe that a good team makes the whole experience interesting and fruitful and useful for everybody. So I'm very, very fortunate to work with an amazing library team and to top that is the beautiful library space that we have. So all together it's the people and the place that makes this a beautiful library and a wonderful place. I wake up every morning and I want to rush to work and that happens every single morning. I think what's really exciting for me is it is a library that sits in the middle of the school and it has teaching spaces actually inside the library across all three floors. So particularly when we're talking about really trying to bring boys back to the library, 50% of my job is done because they are inside the library and we've got them captive for a certain amount of time. And it's about keeping them there at the end of class and making sure that they grab a book or look at a display and strategically I think our circulation desk is right, you know, near that set of stairs. And like Pooja said, I've got a lovely team and a team that are passionate about library spaces who are passionate about getting the boys reading, who really appreciate. It is a different set of challenges with boys, but I always say if you are trying, you're not failing and you just have to find what's going to stick in that context that you're in. I love that you both spoke about the importance of the space and I think we can be so intentional about how we design that space to really draw boys in. I know this conversation is going to be largely positive, but I think it's important for us to address that elephant in the room about boys resistance or maybe their perceived resistance to reading. In your experience, Gabrielle, what are some of the reasons boys might be resisting engaging with the texts that are in our library spaces or are the books at home or wherever? A lot of boys and I'm speaking not in absolutes here, but I'm generalising, they just don't see reading as the same priority, you know. They can't see the point. I think boys are very outcome driven and they very much about short goals and immediacy. That is there's something around educating boys that we actually know. So they can't see the point in picking up a book for enjoyment and I think the other thing that works against this is there is peer pressure around boys and if this is seen as any kind of a feminine interest or pastime, especially with teenage boys, they can rail very hard against that. I think we don't role model it to boys and we maybe don't role model it to boys with role models that they appreciate or value. The other thing too, I'll say Bruce is the more the boys aren't reading, the harder it can be to go back to. Now we all know if we go through a period of time when we're not reading and then suddenly I always find at Christmas time when I've got this long protracted break ahead of me and I get through my TBR palm, I have to be red pile. Those first few days where I really sink into that book goodness it's hard and I'm a great reader and I find it easy. But when vocab is hard and comprehension is hard and the concentration is hard and this is why I really believe in sustained reading programs to be embedded in the curriculum at school. If it's already hard and then they go back to doing it and it's hard, where's the intrinsic motivation to keep doing it? So much like you've got to exercise their reading muscle. Yes and it's that idea of a micro habit. Even if you can't get 20 minutes happening. It's time for 10 because there's some really exciting data on how many words they're going to be exposed to if they're doing 10 minutes a day. Definitely echo what Gabrielle was just saying. I believe there is a strifactor that a, the boys are at time poor. There's so much demand on their time. There's so much happening around them, especially in our busy boys school. before school, during school, after school, and everything else. The second thing is competing interests. So even when they have time, they are involved and interested in so many things that sometimes reading just misses out. And the third thing is the stereotype that reading is not manly, it's not a cool thing. It's not a cool thing to be seen sitting in a corner reading a book. These have indicated that parents tend to encourage girls more to read while they encourage boys to participate in physical activities, from very childhood when they're very little. So it's almost like those ingrained stereotypes cross over into the sort of reading space. Absolutely. It's just, it's reading is considered a feminine activity. It's not considered a masculine thing to do. The second thing is there is definitely a lack of male role models, as gapriels already touched upon. So but if you look at family perspective, I do believe and studies have again shown that it is the mothers at home who are talking about reading or who are found reading. So they are the role models at home for reading. Probably not that much of their their dads or grandfathers or uncles or older brothers. So the boys don't see other men or males at home as readers. Another thing is this misunderstanding talked about boys don't see that anything be reading beyond prescribed text as beneficial. It's also a myth when people say that boys prefer to read nonfiction over fiction. So all of these things together sort of keep boys away from reading. I wonder, I mean just something that came as you both were sharing. I wonder how much of the sort of shorter kind of texts that teenagers in particular engage with these days select social media and that kind of thing. I wonder how much of that in society has impacted how boys engage with novels and longer texts. I think it's huge. I think it's huge for us. I'm having conversations now with my English, the English faculty at school saying, okay, we all can you recommend a text for stage four. So you know, that's our 13, 14 year olds for our international audience. And they want to hit all these thematic kind of discussion. But then they'll say to me, it needs to be under 200 pages. And I think we've got to we've got to also look at the idea of this shallow reading versus deep reading. And you know, the final test in the Australian school system, you know, is the HSC or the IB. And big parts of that in the module B of the HSC, it has it's analytical discussion about text. And our module C, which is craft of writing, requires enormous reading across so many different genres to really extrapolate, you know, the craft that authors are writing now. If we then don't ask our students to really dive deep into that real deep reading where they really understand character and story and development. And then we're behind. It can be quite overwhelming hearing about all these challenges that are that boys are facing or the resistance that they display towards reading. But I don't want us to get overwhelmed today because I think the message that I've heard from both of you before is that reading is definitely good for boys. So definitely studies have highlighted that there are several cognitive as well as emotional benefits. So one of the co- some of the cognitive benefits are that increases intelligence, helps with memory, concentration, imagination, information processing, foresight, it boosts brain power, it fights diseases like Alzheimer's, it helps in relaxing and it also assists in sleeping as and once you finish reading, you fall asleep easier. As per emotional, there are immense emotional benefits. It boosts mental health and well-being and because for children, it actually helps them get the vocabulary or develop the vocabulary to share their feelings, their needs, to express what they're feeling, what they want, what their desires are. In Cambridge University, one of the studies that came into university, it was found that reading fiction provides training in developing and practicing empathy and theory of mind. So it is really, really important for everyone to read because fiction helps us understand how other people feel and think. Just simply reading a few pages, a few chapters before you fall asleep, it reduces stress. A UK organisation, the Reading Agency, actually commissioned a review of all the relevant literature to look at the impact of reading for pleasure and empowerment. And the review covered research findings from England, Canada, the United States, Holland, Germany, New Zealand and Australia. And the significant focus there was on children and young people. And it was found that there is a strong evidence that reading for pleasure can increase empathy, improve relationships with others, reduce symptoms of depression and the risk of dementia and improve well-being throughout life. What more do you want? It's like that pill, a magical pill, which is just beneficial in every way, shape and form. There are no side effects, no negative side effects. It's all positive. What I love about what you've shared there is a research assistant, David. I'm not sure if you've heard her TED Talk or read her book, but she talks about exactly what you're saying, this idea of emotional granularity. And the more words we have to express how we're really feeling. And I think that's particularly important for boys. When we want to acknowledge the inner life of boys, we want to acknowledge that they are emotional beings like all of us are. Boys might just say, well, I'm angry. But if you develop emotional granularity, they can say, I'm frustrated, which is far more nuanced than I'm angry. I love that you're highlighted that connection between giving boys the words to express. I'd never thought about reading in that context before. Absolutely. I think the time for this strong, silent type of man, I think we need to get away from all those traditional thinking stereotypes. And it is important that everybody has the power to share their thoughts and ideas. The positive outcomes of reading definitely includes enjoyment, knowledge of self and other people. Also a social interaction. They can learn about other cultures and imagination. It really boosts their imagination. And it helps them focus, obviously, relaxation and mood regulation as well. As well as involvement in communication, improvement in communication abilities and definite, long-term educational outcomes that we have touched upon several times. I wanted to just extend on all those fantastic points, Pujamaid, because I have developed a whole school reading program in my past school. So I used to have to take everything that Pujamaid said and all this that we'd love. And I had to bring it down to something that I was able to fire very quickly. And I bought it down to nine main points a sentence each and I just like to repeat these for your listeners. Increased independence through reading and constructing meaning for themselves. Increased opportunities to access complex language. Improved concentration because they've had to persevere through challenging materials. It builds core literacy skills through vocab, listening comprehension and writing. It builds empathy through connections to characters and stories. It allows boys to see themselves or their peers on pages of a book in our library, which is so important. It increases their general knowledge because they're having exposure to new ideas. It increases resilience and critical thinking skills. There's opportunities for analysis and evaluation because they're encountering new ideas and new perspectives and language and it enormously improves how they approach creative writing because they're being exposed to various forms of literature, writing styles and genres. And when you bring it down to those nine points, very hard for principles and those in power to argue with you because they cover everything. Literacy outcomes, well-being and that's our job and schools to turn out these well-rounded individuals. We have to teach boys how to build empathy. I think it's very important. When it's for facing a time in society right now where young men are sometimes being given a really hard time and I think coming back to works of fiction in particular and storytelling where they can build empathy or they can actually explore the world around them in a pretty safe way. The stories and narratives, they help boys understand the world around them and diversity and tolerance and inclusion. Now these are the words we need to be using with young men. tolerance and inclusion and if that can be captured in a story in a work of fiction would a safe way for that to happen. We know that the power of fiction when young men can see themselves on a page or see people that they're recognising their own lives on a page. And that is why fiction was such an important thing to have in our boys because it also gets into reader response theory, Biblio therapy. And it's why reader advisory has to be done by professionals. It's why teacher librarians and librarians are such pivotal people to have in a school to link a young man or a teen boy to the read that it's going to serve them. And then the reader response that they will have to them, you know, they bring their own baggage and they see the world through their own lens. I say grow your fiction collections, grow them widely and diversely. And that is where I'm putting my majority of my energy now in my old boys school. The power of story and narratives can't be underestimated. Reminds me of that. I know this is a well-known quote by Rudeen Som's Bishop, but the fact that text like that or books like that are like windows and mirrors that we see ourselves and we see others. These strategies that we're trying with boys and young men to grow their empathy, to encourage them to be kind. It's almost for me like the more they are reading, the easier those conversations become. Books become the teachers. Yeah, yeah. You said, Pooja, are there any negatives? There aren't. So, you know, reading is good for everyone. It's good for boys. So with that in mind in knowing their challenges, how do we go about strategising around getting boys to read? And maybe in your experience of kings, there are some tried and true strategies that educators can implement in terms of encouraging boys to read more. So one of the things which we do very well at kings is role modeling. And we've touched upon it several times. So there are all these boys who may not have had a positive role model from the sense, from perspective of being a male in their family who reads. So what we do here at kings a lot is have male teachers and all teachers who read to showcase that they are readers. So we've got a PowerPoint which we developed a few months ago where we had all the student leaders as well as many of the staff, male and female. Taking a photo with their books, with the books they are reading. So and that PowerPoint that slide keeps going on almost every digital display around the school, the entire school. So boys come in and they look at that and then they say what book was that? What, you know, a service reading, that teacher was reading. And so that definitely is role is is positive role modeling. We called it real leaders read. So we had all these student leaders and school leaders reading. Another thing is to have we have displays around the library sometimes and we put in a little, you know, something on the books to say this is the favorite book of this teacher. And so the boys are very interested again, they walk around, they read, they look at whose favorite book is which one. And then most of the times those books get borrowed because they feel that they want to read what their favorite teachers read or has identified as their favorite teacher. And sharing book recommendations, going to the local library, video on children as educators, that's very important. So to be seen as a reader by everybody, that role modeling I think is one of the most important thing. I was in a boys school the other day, I'm here in South Africa, Pooja, where every classroom I walked past, there was a A3 laminated poster, which said, "Ask me about what I'm reading." And then as teachers, we're reading different things, they could then with a whiteboard marker, put the title of the new book up there that they were reading and then we give boys the opportunity to ask them. Gabrielle, something you said earlier that connects to this for me, it really seems important. And that is that, and I love what Pooja shared about highlighting ways to encourage boys to read. But I think for boys schools, isn't there also an opportunity we have to embed reading into boys daily lives. They're with us for how many hours a day. And I think, based on your experience in your previous school and what you're wanting to do, it's an Augustants to develop a program where reading becomes part of boys daily lives, a matter of fact. I feel that if we are going to be successful in establishing reading cultures in schools, then we must find time on the school day. And it is not an impossible task. I've done it. So when you sit down and timetables, you know, a complex beast, but they can be changed, and they often are changed to allow for rugby or for instrumental or for specialist lessons. And I think it's about having someone at that table who represents not just library, but literacy and well-being in your school environment. And then once you have a protected period of time, and this is the thing, Bruce, when I introduced this in my previous school, not one parent was against it. And how many school initiatives could you say that every parent supported? And the reason they supported is because parents at core know that reading is a wonderful pursuit. They want their children reading. They may not be modeling at home as they should be, or they may have their child full of extracurricular activities. So I feel like if schools say we can kind of build this into the school day, and then, you know, it's still that triangular approach between the school, the family, and the child. But if the school can do that, and you've got a fantastic library, then doing all the other things that Pooja was just talking about, the role modeling is crucial. Parents have to have some time where they get their kids off a device. We all know we shouldn't be looking at blue light before bed. 10 minutes before bed would be, you know, a fantastic thing. And the other thing that Pooja covered so much of it, but one thing I will say to parents and I've said this for 15 years, never take a book off a child, never take a book off a child. It doesn't matter if that child is rereading something for the seventh or eighth time, because if you take a book from a child and say, this is too easy for you, you need to read something harder. They will teach you a lesson and they'll stop reading. And when they do that, you've lost them and to try and get them back as hard, the key is to find out where they are then, and then to find them an entry point into a wider variety of texts. Now we know the three biggest series that really captivated teens was the Hunger Games, Twilight, and Harry Potter. Kids just devoured that. And really good librarians would look at that and say, look, you loved the Hunger Games. You read the whole series and they were quite challenging books, but you loved it. That says to me you loved dystopian and I can give you four other great authors who do that. That's what Pooja and I are talking about when you say great reader advisory. So never, ever take a book from a child and the whole idea of something being self-selected, let them find their entry point because we could be dealing with boys who've got quite low entry points and teach librarians always saying, well, what if they just keep reading 13 story tree house or they just keep reading over with the kid? I promise you they won't because one other thing about boys is they don't like being bored. And if this is something that's going to be in their life regularly, they won't accept being bored and when they don't have to read a set amount or they don't have to report on something and reading just becomes for the joy of reading, I think boys will extend themselves to what they feel they can do. I love what you're sharing there about self-selection and I wonder just for both of you, how can we help boys find or dive into books that resonates with their interests, with their life experience that will capture them in that moment? I think that really is a reader advisory. Now if a young boy came into the library the other day and I'm new at St Augustine's and there's 1600 and something boys and so I don't know all of them yet by a long way, but he said I need a book for the holidays and the way he said that meant my mother has told me to come in and get a book for the holidays. So I'm really paused and I said well we've got some great new books now, I want to know a little bit more about you and you know we know when we educate boys it's relational. If they have a relationship with you they will open up so much more there, they're a little bit different girls in that way and I said what's the last movie you really loved? What's the last TV show you loved? Do you play an instrument? What sport do you do? And really those are the five key questions to me and tell me a book you loved and I don't care how long ago you read it but just tell me a call memory you might have around a book and when you ask those five questions you honestly as a good teller you can paint a picture of a book or two that they're going to love and you come up with three of those books and you have to be I always say to boys will I'll suggest five and you have to take one of them. If you're being intentional as a librarian about engaging with boys like Gabrielle has shared, you know, the next time they come, they will feel way more welcome in your space. They will know that you're a person to come to. I mean, I think back to my librarian when I was at school and it was almost like the library was a space where you went in, you kept quiet, you kind of, you know, you didn't want to ask the librarian because it was a man at that point. He would bark your head off because you're disturbing whatever he's doing, you know. But I think libraries have become much more friendly and engaging spaces and I can only think that's the relational collection like Gabrielle said will be good for that over time. Absolutely, absolutely. The right book at the right time in the right hand, that is what all teacher librarians and librarians, that's our mantra. And asking those pertinent questions about their interest and what they like and so on, that is the key to get them to open up and share what they like and definitely Bruce, a school library collection that has been curated by qualified library staff, that will definitely have titles to interest and represent every single student in that school and staff because that's what we do. And every single person would find something on the shelves whether they are physical or digital, whether they are e-books or audiobooks, manga or graphic novels, biographies or theories or whatever genre of books they like. They will be something there for everyone and that is where we have used the word read is advisory several times and that is where that comes in because as qualified library staff, we know our collection, we know our clientele that is our student and staff population and we are very, very mindful and when we do our, when we order our books and we buy or arrange for our programs and we are planning, we keep all of that in mind. It takes a little bit of getting to know your clientele but we are very good at that. So definitely the atmosphere of a library and the way the library staff relates to and welcomes the people coming into the library makes a world of difference. So most of our school library these days, they are welcoming spaces, they are safe spaces and the boys know that. They are comfortable, they are dynamic, they are comfortable seating, there's nice light, it's all very intentional. So libraries are for everybody. School libraries are placed, it's a well-being hub. Correct me if I'm wrong but this, it seems to me that there was a period of time, probably five to seven years ago when everyone was talking about how the digital world was evolving, where there was a sense that libraries would become places that disappear and yet it seems to me that like we've spoken about, even in the strategies you should, but we've spoken about how good reading is for everybody but for boys and particularly in terms of their growth and their development and their academic benefits. It seems to me that more than ever the boys schools who are going to be on the front of what you are speaking about are the ones that are investing not only resources but space and they are being intentional about hiring the right people to be in that space who not only understand books and libraries but understand how to engage with boys. I think certainly what happened around 10 years ago Bruce, there seemed to be a wave of schools decommissioning their school library spaces and almost without exception, you know, results suffered. I think the well-being of students in those schools suffered, they weren't fully qualified and highly qualified and knowledgeable teacher librarians and librarians and in those schools those libraries are starting to be put back into place and it'll be rare to find a school that don't name the library in some way in their strategic plan because they know it's so heavily linked to literacy outcomes. Can I just say that speaking to the two of you I think has just been really, really inspiring in the sense that it's given me so much hope and I think so often we can default to saying boys don't read and that's that's probably lazy I think if we if we like all the things you both have shared if we're intentional if we create the space if we build a relationship if we're excited we're role modeling and we see this as a priority I think it is a challenge that can be easily overcome and in fact we will we will bust that myth that boys that boys don't read I do also want to say that I wish when I was at school that I had had librarians like you in our library space because I think it would have been a much more friendly and engaging space and both your schools are so privileged to have you in those roles and thank you for just so passionately sharing your love for reading and your connection with boys I'm inspired and I know focus they listen are going to be inspired too so thank you so much thank you Bruce thank you Pooja it's the best Thursday evening you can spend to talk to to other equally inspirational people about books and reading and IBSC thank you Bruce thank you Gabrielle it's been my pleasure as we head towards the end of 2023 and the invariable busyness that comes with that please let IBSC know how we can support you and your work with boys as always thanks for listening and keep on championing boys education [BLANK_AUDIO]