I'm the founder of the McLare Capital Companies, Victor McLare, guiding people to and through retirement
for almost 40 years has taught me one valuable lesson. When it comes to retirement, cash flow is
king. If you have plenty of cash flow and retirement, you're happy. If you don't, you're not.
It doesn't matter how much money you've saved. In other words, if your bills are 10,000 a month and
you got 15,000 a month coming in every month like clockwork, you're happy. Hopefully you've made
more than you spend in your working years. You're able to pay the bills, get the kids to college,
go on vacations, save for retirement. If you get similar cash flow and retirement that's when
you're working, wouldn't that be great? In other words, the day you retire, you get the same income,
but you don't have to leave the house. That's called a perfect retirement. Since right now, you can get
10 to 15% guaranteed income, depending on age and how long you defer the income, that allows you
to potentially secure the perfect retirement. Call us at 972-960-8700 or go to ilabmyretirement.com.
We're on the number 40 to see if you can achieve the perfect retirement. 972-960-8700 or ilabmyretirement.com.
Ready to level up your day? Then join me and my friends at loonstarkacino.com. That's L-O-N-E-S-T-A-R
casino, where you can experience the thrill of Las Vegas. No matter where you are, loonstarkacino.com
is an absolutely free-to-play social casino with thousands of games, daily bonuses, free spins,
and jackpots that pop like fireworks. Hit pause on life, and hit play on loonstarkacino.com.
Loonstarkacino is a free-to-play social casino. Voidware prohibited. Visit loonstarkacino.com for more
details. Sign up today for an incredible welcome bonus. Play bold, win big. Your task will not be
an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle hard. There is not a liberal America
and a conservative America. There is the United States of America. Hey everybody, it's Rick
Wilson. Welcome back to the Lincoln Project Podcast. Great to have you with us as always.
Hey, before we start, let's worship the algorithm for a second. Do me a favor wherever you're
watching. This click like, subscribe, follow whatever the button the bell, whatever it is.
It helps the podcast get up to more people and we love growing our audience. So thank you so much.
I am really happy to be joined today by Molly Taft, who is a senior writer at Wired, who specializes
these days in data centers and climate change stories. And Molly, great to have you on today because
you know, folks are so locked down on the data center issue right now because it is this gigantic
confluence of money and power and influence and impact and we're just going to start to see the
impact. So my first question to you is if you were going to build a system that was going to accelerate
climate change dramatically in the world, what would it be? That's such a good question, Rick.
I do want to start off by saying that it wouldn't necessarily be like the pure distillation of a
data center, right? Because the data center, the tactical definition is just it's a building with
racks, servers inside that powers a variety of different things, right? I think like part of the
problem is like a data center kit like can rain from very, very small like a server room to
office park somewhere. Exactly. Which is traditionally what we've had to the hyperscalers that are
being built across the country and like these just jaw dropping sizes. So we're working with like a
range of different definitions. You know, but but your question gets to the point of like what I think
is one of the really real and damaging and concerning aspects of this build out is you know in a
perfect world, if we wanted to build a lot of data centers, we would be figuring out how to use
them to power a renewable energy revolution, right? These are energy hungry facilities. And what if
like thinking, you know, what if we are crazy? Yeah, call me crazy. Like what if we took this
opportunity to fix our electric grid and and really figure out a way to use all of this increased
demand to power all of this electricity with clean energy. And I think that there are still some
people, you know, policy wonks and renewable spokes who are really pushing for that. And there
are some examples of this happening, but by and large, the American data center build out is being
powered by specifically natural gas and is also extending a lifeline to our dirtier sources of
energy. And that I think for a lot of journalists who cover, you know, people have a lot of
environmental questions about data centers. And there's all sorts of, you know, complexities and
conversations we can have about different aspects of this. But to me, one of the really jaw-dropping
and like concerning aspects is just how much we are going to be relying on natural gas to build
some of these out, right? And at a moment in time when we need to be moving away from that as far as
possible. So that's, yeah, it's a it's a it watching the size of some of the power plants that are
being proposed and started to be constructed. And those power plants are being built exclusively
at the moment to many of them just to run data centers. They're not being currently connected.
They're not for the grid. They're not for the grid necessarily. They, you know, they may backflow
to that right? Yeah, but also, you know, another thing about this is like a lot of industry people
are like, we don't know. Like this is such a new frontier. Yeah, like people we've never had like a
private power build out like this before. That's kind of just not how the system works. So, you know,
I consistently talked to experts and they're like, we don't know what's going to happen. Like these
could get connected to the grid. They could convert to a clear version of fuel. They could, you know,
many of them could not be built. But like right now, sure looks like a big demand pipeline for fossil
fuels. And that's, that's like the real story at the moment. Yeah, it sure does. And it's again,
and the hyperscalers as a friend of mine said to me today, we were talking about geoengineering.
And he says, hyperscalers are essentially geoengineering right now. They are the, they are enormous producers
of heat. They're enormous producers of, of, you know, all the buy, all the, all the turbines that are
running there are producing a whole bunch of climate changing blow by. You know, none of them are
powered yet by magical fusion reactors that don't exist. It would be, it would be great. It would
be really great. And, you know, I do know that there are some hyperscalers who are investing very
heavy and nuclear. Like there, there is a dream that this could ultimately enable, you know,
industries that are nascent and, and get funding for those industries. And that is happening. Like,
I don't want to discount that. But also, you know, my big question is, all right, if you're a
hyperscaler, you're investing all this money and you say, we'll get to nuclear when small modular
reactors come online. Well, the timeline for those nuclear is not a fast industry.
Even with oak low and, and new scale and others, that top line is still not five years away. It's
still right. 10, even with very shortened regulatory windows, it's still a long way away. And fusion
is, as we all know, five years away forever. I have a friend who works at Commonwealth and he said,
he's got a little sign on his desk and says, and it says, get fusion, save the world. He's right.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely right. But between here and there, it would be so cool. It would be really
cool. I would love to see it. Yeah. I would love it. I would be, it would be, it would be
transformative in a million different ways. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, so would a magical,
you know, so would a magic wand at this point. But so, you know, it does fascinating me that this is
that the construction of these hyperscaled data centers and you're, you're about to start a newsletter
on this for wire, correct? Yes. From now until the midterms, you know, I think a lot of my work
for a lot of us environmental journalists, this, this topic kind of was, was given to us a little
bit earlier than a lot of political reporters, because yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of the data center
pushback originated in environmental concerns and in local concerns about impacts on water and
electricity bills, especially in places like Virginia, where data center Allie, like they have,
they have been sort of on the front lines of some of the impacts of loud and county in particular.
Loud and county in particular. And also the front lines of receiving, you know, there is like
significant amount of money from some of these buildouts, right? But like they, they have been
also very concerned about things like noise, things like water use, there are electricity bills,
and there have been some scary statistics around Virginia, but that's a muddy issue. So, you know,
a lot of us came into this and I also think if you are a climate reporter, one thing that I have
noticed in many others, a lot of this aligned pretty closely sometimes with the pushback to
renewable energy. You know, there are parallels and narratives with some of the data center resistance
that made me sit up and think people are really mad about this. And I don't know if people in DC
are noticing how angry people are getting about this. So we were kind of covering it from a grassroots
environmental perspective. And you know, also on the other side too, like the pipeline protests,
like protests against built facilities in the environment. And people were really angry. And
along the way, as we're reporting this out, patterns start to emerge of like, okay, one of the
things that folks are angry about is not just the energy and water use, but all of these NDAs,
you know, like there's a pattern that emerged with these local projects where, you know,
I'm talking to folks on the ground and they're saying we have no idea who the tenant is going to be,
what the impacts on our electric bills are going to be, how much water they will use. A lot of that
is proprietary information. You know, our city council people are using and are being forced to
sign NDAs by these companies or choosing to sign NDAs to, you know, bring this project here.
And that was another facet of the backlash of like, no one knows what, you know, there's this impression.
And I think in a lot of places, very cracked that a lot of these projects were kept very under
the, you know, they were, they were sort of being brought in like, people wouldn't ask too many
questions. And I think that that makes people ask questions, even if it is, yeah, I've said this
before, I think the tech companies were working with a playbook that they wrote in 2012 when Google
coming to your town would be
a really cool thing that, you know, that you would be like, would people would be thrilled?
People would be thrilled. You know, and you think back to the experience of tech back then,
a lot of it still felt really new and fun and there wasn't ads on our social media. You know, like,
we, you know, Google was working, you know, yeah, no, don't be evil exactly. And I don't mean to
signal Google, but you know, there was a lot of excitement around what was happening in Silicon
Valley. We fast forward what 15 years later, we're at a completely different cultural moment
with how we look at these tech companies for many reasons that they have brought upon themselves,
right? And they are also now significantly in power. They are working directly with the White House
on this build out and on AI development. And I think people, I, I'm not sure why they didn't
clock that a lot of what they had done in the past with data centers wouldn't work.
You can see one of the reasons that they they have realized that they didn't clock it now because
they're hiring every PR and crisis management firm in DC in New York right now and paying them,
you know, $150,000 a week in some of these cases because they're, they know how deep the whole
that they put themselves in as a crisis PR guy. I was literally having a conversation with
this morning about this, not in his firm had gotten into a negotiation and just decided it's
not worth it. And he said, these guys don't understand if, if Mark Zuckerberg woke up one morning
to find out that the Atherton City Council where he lives in Silicon Valley had without letting
them know because of India's decided to put a 250,000 square foot data center in their neighborhood,
he would not be happy. And, and so he's shocked. And, you know, so as Sam and the rest of these
guys, they're shocked when ordinary people out in the country find out one day that the bulldozers
clearing out what used to be, you know, 2,000 acres of, of farmland is are going to build something
you can see from space and it's going to be, you can hear it from five miles away. They're,
they're, they're shocked by this. I mean, is some of this just the like the insularity of that
money class in Silicon Valley now, they just, they're, they're, they've gotten so wealthy beyond where
they were in 2012. Yeah. They don't see the rest of the country as, you know, I don't know,
fully human or something. I think it's the wealth. And I also, frankly, I also think a lot of,
you know, a lot of it comes back to Silicon Valley is so insular, geographically as well,
you know, like a lot of, and, and I think this dovetails with conversations we're having about AI
more in general, right, where we have a class of folks who have been kind of in their own bubble
with regards to this technology they are building. And the conversations they're having, the rest of us
are like several steps behind and kind of understanding what's going on. And, and yet we are getting
the physical manifestation of what they want to build in our backyards and our neighborhoods. And
yeah, to your point, it is, it's always bit, it's an interesting project to kind of watch folks
in tech realize in real time that people really don't want data centers. When I think, you know,
anyone is like, well, I could have told you that. Like it's, and, and you know, like even just the
kind of basic thing of like this doesn't even provide that many jobs. Like it's, it's, it's,
that's the great illusion of these things. It's sure on the front end are their jobs for electricians,
concrete guys, pipe fitters, welders, contractors, absolutely. Totally. Those run about 90 days to
120 days while they're building out these things. And after that, folks, there's 200,000 square foot
data centers. It's a couple guys with golf carts running around inside. Yeah. And it's not a big
economic boost to the community. Yeah. And you know, I think, I think in some places it can be an
economic boost, right? But like it's, that's not something that you as a normal person necessarily
see in front of you. Also, many of them have taken tax breaks in the past to come to the community.
But that's not, you know, when we're talking about voter sentiment and voter attitudes,
that's not like, you know, and for a normal person, that's not necessarily going to be a buy-in for
like a significant change to your community and worries about you're looking at your electric
bill. It's already sky high and you're wondering, is this going to raise rates in my community?
If they build a power plant, you know, I've always said like, I think Elon Musk building his
XAI power plant where he trucked in just a bunch of unpermitted gas turbines to build it as quickly
as possible in a historically black community that already suffers from some of the highest asthma
rates in the country was great for him to get that online very quickly. It was really bad for
the rest of the industry, even folks who are trying to be careful about community impacts, right?
That makes everyone, I think, correctly ask what will having mobile gas turbines to do in my
community. And so, yeah, I think it is, it, it, and you know, I've also heard kind of anecdotally,
you know, even from data center companies and tech companies that are trying to build responsibly
and giving these companies the benefit of the doubt, there is often a pretty big disconnect
between folks who are working on environmental policy, climate policy, community benefits,
and the people who are trying to get this down on the ground, because you need to remember
the industry incentive right now is like this, these need to go up yesterday.
Can we need to do that now? CapEx now. CapEx now.
Needs to happen now. And I think that even inside some of these companies, there is a really
big disconnect. And, and, you know, we, we see it sometimes also with, you know, like these,
the tech companies are building data systems themselves, but a lot of them are also outsourcing them
to two or three different, you know, layers of contractors who secure the land. And those
contractors might not really care as much. They don't have a national name to protect like these big,
you know, the big seven. So, there's all sorts of different dynamics at play as to like why they
didn't maybe pick up on this not being a good idea. It's kind of been like a little bit of a
perfect storm to watch develop. I think it's been a while since we've had a truly grassroots
movement. And I think that's another aspect of this is like no one saw it coming.
I'm the founder of the McClure Capital Companies, Victor McClure,
guiding people to and through retirement for almost 40 years has taught me one valuable lesson.
You're able to pay the bills, get the kids to college, go on vacation, save for retirement.
If you could get similar cash flow and retirement as when you were working, wouldn't that be great?
Call us at 972-960-8700 or go to alabmyrotirement.com. We'll run the numbers for
you to see if you can achieve the perfect retirement. 972-960-8700 or alabmyrotirement.com.
There's all sorts of different dynamics at play as to why they didn't maybe pick up on
this not being a good idea. It's kind of been like a little bit of a perfect storm to watch,
develop. I think it's been a while since we've had a truly grassroots movement and I think
that's another aspect of this is like no one's not coming. That's such a good point, Molly,
because when I started looking at the polling on data centers about 10 months ago,
was the first time I saw a poll on data centers and I thought to myself, that's weird.
Republicans and Democrats are within six points of each other on this and independence are right
in the middle. It wasn't so extraordinary that this was not a partisan issue eight, ten months ago
in the way that almost everything else in America becomes a partisan issue. Now, it's even less of a
partisan issue. In Florida, I just saw some data center polling in Florida and Republicans,
Democrats and Independents are all within two points of each other on their opposition to data centers,
which is why in the reddest parts of Florida, you're seeing this weird coalition of water quality
environmentalists, hunters and fishermen, farmers and ranchers and conservation folks all coming
together and they may have not, you're normally gotten along, but they're like absolutely not.
They're more tourists popping up all of the reddest counties and the bluest counties
with the same commonality of intensity against these things. Strangely with a greater knowledge
than I would have expected before, people have educated themselves on things like the gas turbines
and the north, which anecdotally people sort of think they know what it sounds like until you go
near one and you hear what it sounds like. I fly high performance airplanes. I know what an
APU sounds like on a jet all the time running. They can be loud. They're not running all the time
but they're really loud. When they're running, you will know it. You will know it.
And I'm fascinated that in Florida in particular, water has become like the key thing. Howard
Watnik yesterday, oh, data centers don't use water. Bad news for you Howard.
But here in Florida, our aquifer is so fragile and challenged both through over development
and climate that it's not being refilled and these things are like single machines for the state of
Florida. That's going to go well. But I wanted a question I had for you about like that disconnect.
A tech guy who is a friend of ours, a sponsor or donor of the Lincoln Project, a friend of ours,
he said to me recently, he goes, here's my question. He goes, you know, all of our shit is
obsolete in 36 months. He goes, what happens in 36 months when when in video or somebody else has
a big breakthrough and we get much more efficient approaches to training. We get much more efficient
approaches to model development, when the Chinese are producing with much less
and much less infrastructure.
It was what happens then to all these buildings.
I'm like, well, they get abandoned.
And that's, I mean, I don't think it's so weird.
It's part of it's just that that CapEx race
to keep their position in the markets, right?
Yeah.
Are they doing this in part just to keep their,
you know, just for shareholder value at the moment
rather than having a technical objective?
You know, I think that, first of all,
the incentive to keep building,
I think partially goes back to what I was just talking about
the disconnect between, like, you know, like,
I think that many industries have sort of heard
from the administration, especially,
which from day one has been extremely intense.
Oh.
American AI, building American AI specifically.
And, you know, that frankly was a,
it's a great incentive for construction businesses,
for oil and gas.
Like, it's, you know, you need to build a bunch of physical
infrastructure.
And this has been a great welcome mat for a bunch
of different industries.
And so there's a lot of, there's a height machine
behind building these things.
Right.
And, you know, a time will tell on,
I did see that, like, you know,
July was like one of, I think it's like the,
the most active data center construction months we've had.
So, like, you know, big questions on how moratoriums
are actually impacting this.
But I do want to come back to, like, that idea of,
you said, you know, folks are educating themselves.
I think in Silicon Valley, there is still this misunderstanding
that everyone opposed to a data center is like,
is, is stupid or misinformed.
Certainly there is bad information out there.
Backward, I believe is the president said.
Yeah.
There's certainly bad information out there.
Because some of these issues are also complicated.
Like water is a, we don't really have a good holistic way
of thinking about water use and water use is so local
that it is difficult to talk about nationally.
Water use in the East and West is a radically different conversation.
My fiance, she's from California and the conversation,
like, it's just two different modes of existence.
And I think one of the things is that a lot of policy makers
in DC have never had to think about water the way someone
in the West does.
I recall a conversation I had with the data center
protester who used cloud computing in his business.
He was like, I completely understand what a data center is.
I understand the need to build more for the IRAs.
He was like, totally in on that.
But then he was also like, you know, there was a project
being built in his community.
And he was like, I am worried about what happens
when they decide they don't want this facility anymore.
What happens to us, you know, the proposed project,
I believe, was going to be around 600 megawatts of power.
It was going to take it from the local power plant.
That power plant was currently at 700 megawatts
for the whole, you know, community.
And the utility was like, we're going to expand it.
I don't worry, but like these people were correctly
being like, who's paying for that?
And what happens if in two or three years
while the expansion is still underway,
this construction is still underway, the tenant backs out.
And we certainly have seen some very high profile shifts
in priorities from some of the big companies, you know,
the Stargate campus has been through a bunch of different
like hands changing around who gets to use that compute.
And that space and that power, you know,
a couple of different like, like,
it's not a sure thing that these things will get built
and then run for 30 years, right?
And I think people, people, you know, people
who are opposed to both specific projects
and generally questioning the data center build out,
I think, like, understand that, like,
that this is a very new sector of the economy
that is built on some assumptions
and folks are just leery of what it will end up being,
you know, and I think that's the valid question, right?
I think it's a very valid question.
I also think, I think data centers also
have become like a proxy for some of the anxiety
about what AI is going to do to white collar
and gray collar jobs because the idea that,
so the idea of people saying, well,
so I'm going to pay for this noisy, costly thing
in our neighborhood by higher electric bills
and lower quality of life and lower property values.
And then it's going to be used by these guys in Silicon Valley
to train AI to take my job as a CPA or an actuary
or a lawyer or whatever it is,
the place you'll move from protests
about data centers to the pitchforks and torches phase
is if they start connecting that what Sam and Dario
and Mark and the rest of them want to do
is transfer a huge amount of GDP
from human workers to their AI systems
in the next five years.
I feel like it's become a proxy for that.
I don't think people have a fully fleshed out sense of that yet,
but I feel like that's starting to creep around the edges
of what's out there.
- Yeah, this isn't evolving conversation.
And I want to just also point out that again,
this conversation is so new.
Like when I started covering data center protests
back in June of last year, again,
not that long ago, there was one organization
that was tracking opposition, right?
There is now a lot of movement
to understand what people are so upset about,
but we're not working with a bunch of historic research
like we are on other issues, right?
- Ready to level up your day?
And join me and my friends at loonstarkaceno.com.
That's L-O-N-E-S-T-A-R-Caceno,
where you can experience the thrill of Las Vegas.
No matter where you are,
loonstarkaceno.com is an absolutely free-to-play
social casino with thousands of games,
daily bonuses, free spins,
and jackpots that pop like fireworks.
Hit pause on life,
and hit play on loonstarkaceno.com.
- Loonstarkaceno is a free-to-play social casino,
voidware prohibited.
Visit loonstarkaceno.com for more details.
- Sign up today for an incredible welcome bonus.
Play bold, win big.
- Hey, it's Kelly Rowland.
You may not know this,
but I have eczema.
So I get how it can steal your time.
But why let eczema take over?
When you can talk to your doctor about Epglyce.
- Epglyce, Libertismab LBKZ,
a 250-milligram per 2-milliliter injection,
is a prescription medicine used to treat adults
and children 12 years of age and older,
who weigh at least 88 pounds,
or 40 kilograms, with moderate to severe eczema.
Also called a topic dermatitis
that is not well controlled
with prescription therapies used on the skin,
or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies.
Epglyce can be used
with or without topical corticosteroids.
Don't use if you are allergic to Epglyce.
A allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.
Eye problems can occur.
Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.
You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglyce.
Before starting Epglyce,
tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.
Pay partnership with Lily.
- Respect your time.
Ask your doctor about Epglyce and visit Epglyce.com.
Or call 1-800-LilyRx or 1-800-545-59.
- 599-799.
(phone ringing)
(upbeat music)
- Anyone who says that they understand why people are mad
about data centers for one good reason is like,
I think there's a billion different reasons
that people don't like what's going on.
Many of which we've just talked about.
You can absolutely find someone who's only worried about water.
You can absolutely find someone who's only worried
about their electric bills.
And people contain multitudes.
I've talked to many data center protesters who use chat UBT.
But I do think that.
And this is something that's difficult to capture in polling.
It's a complicated feeling that we're all having
of something is changing.
And the rug is being pulled out from under us.
And I think that even if you don't,
even if you are a user of chat GPT and you're worried
about your water bill,
I think people hear these tech companies
and they understand that something is shifting in the wind.
And, you know, I do think like you brought up Florida.
I mean, one of the things that I have been most fascinated
by is that Bernie Sanders and Ronda Santas
have been messaging wise to of the earliest.
And they wanted to Santas was so early connecting AI
with data center buildouts.
And he did it in a very Ronda Santas way.
But, you know, he has been on this from the start as has Bernie.
Bernie, you know, I remember, I was on a press call with Bernie,
you know, a few months ago.
And I asked, you know, he rolled out this data center
moratorium proposal in late March.
And, you know, politicians still at the time were really not
connecting the dots.
And I was like, why isn't anyone else talking about AI safety
and data center buildout the way you are?
And he was like, I really don't know.
Like it really does feel like something important to address.
I think we are going to see a little bit more of it.
But there's still a lot of debate over, like, how
this all gels together.
And I think, to your point about, like, the comms,
the crisis comms, I think if you're a crisis comms person,
you're just like, I don't know.
Right.
I mean, great time to be in crisis comms.
Absolutely.
Also, I don't know.
I don't know.
There's so many things that have gone into this particular
perfect storm about this one issue that I don't really even know
how to approach it.
You know, it's tough.
Yeah, it really is.
It really is.
And as for DeSantis, you, I'm a, you know, we're neighbors
practically, you know, those five minutes from here
of the governor's mansion.
I know this guy, and I know how he thinks.
And the, the, there is a, there is something in his brain
that connected this with a economic transition that will be
politically harmful to him and his colleagues in the future.
And I don't think all the Republicans have connected this
with in their heads yet.
They have not.
And in some ways, you know, I'm certainly not the first one
to say this, but in some ways, you know, our economic
transitions in the past, the post-industrial transition took
from the 1970s to the early 2000s to really sink through two
generations, almost three generations of American workers.
It didn't happen overnight.
It trickled out rather than flooding out.
I think Bernie and DeSantis and a few other political figures
have figured out that if we get to even something
remotely like AGI or even much more qualified.
agentic LLMs, it will transfer so much wealth and GDP away from individuals and towards
seven or eight companies in the valley that the political consequences of that are unspeakable
right now because we don't understand them all. You're absolutely right. We don't, we don't even
begin to understand how bad it could get. And to, and you know, to be like one one concept of
the the ag an economic like people are thinking about this like I think I do think there is some
signs that like even the White House Trump has mused about setting up you know a benefit sharing
program for you know like for Americans to get some cut of of AI profits which reportedly was
pitched to him by Sam Altman. I really do think that I completely agree with you that we are
the data centers backlash is not just about buildings getting built like in many ways and it is
kind of the first step of some monumental sea changes that we're going to see both in like
you know how people express their politics but also like American society and culture.
And like one other thing about DeSantis that I think is important to know that I've seen
some Republican start copycatting most notably Ken Paxton is that you know the old kind of
mega populist gripe with tech was you know the concept of protecting children that comes in many
different ways right like you know from from many of them are yes and you know hard like
restricting children's access to LGBTQ content online right like you know social media bands
that can that can manifest in different ways as as you know enhancing whatever issue the politician
who wants to propose them would like to further that day. I do think we're going to see data centers
become a proxy for many politicians personal kind of this is like one of the first times it would
have seen anything tech related get a really big movement for for legislation right like
Washington has historically been like excuse me arrange dog shit on regulating tech
and data centers are like the door is opening so you know last week Ken Paxton who's running
for Senate came out with his data centers proposal which was you know interesting after he had backed
Abbott's kind of data center build out real sea change there but. Abbott's running away from him
now too. Yeah everyone is everyone's turning away but you know Paxton included the provision that
at data center would be legally liable if a chatbot is shown to harm a child right so and that is
like practically not sure how that would happen but like that is a sign I do think of and you know
many I think we're going to see more politicians from both parties kind of wake up and understand
that people are linking data centers to AI in their minds and that this is a way for them
to start pushing some of their like their kind of like larger gripes about the tech industry or
concerns about where AI is going into data center moratoriums. Ready to level up your day then
join me and my friends at LoneStarCocino.com that's L-O-N-E-S-T-A-R casino where you can experience
the thrill of Las Vegas no matter where you are LoneStarCocino.com is an absolutely free-to-play
social casino with thousands of games daily bonuses free spins and jackpots that pop like fireworks
hit pause on life and hit play on LoneStarCocino.com. LoneStarCocino is a free-to-play social casino
avoid wear prohibited visit LoneStarCocino.com for more details. Sign up today for an incredible
welcome bonus play bold win big. Global superstar Ricky Martin
live in concerts. See Ricky Martin performing all the hits for one night only. Lucas oil live
at winstar friday october 23rd. Get tickets now at winstar.com and seep geek.
People are linking data centers to AI in their minds and that this is a way for them
to start pushing some of their larger gripes about the tech industry or concerns about
where AI is going into data center moratoriums. I just thought that was really interesting
and it's something DeSantis has been doing from day one. He has shocked me in the last few weeks
of being way off the MAGA access on data centers on AI and flock. Well actually I'll push back
on that you know I think that and this is what like I did a big feature that published Lathons
in wired on the kind of bipartisanness of some of this restriction you know a lot of the outrage
I think that a lot of the outrage we're seeing that is bipartisan many of these issues speak to
the populous base that got Donald Trump in office you know right I don't disagree with that at all
and I think also that there is a coming split between you know the right like just because tech
is aligned with Trump right now does not mean that the full MAGA coalition wants them there
and I think that there are very old gripes around you know folks remember um Facebook moderating
posts about vaccines and Twitter removing Trump like these are old old gripes with the coalition
and they're building on things like you know water protection and there's a lot of like very
conservative threads you can pull with some environmental conservation like folks think it's
mostly just yeah like there's you can get really you can get pretty conservative with it um
and that's kind of what I have been noticing and seeing and and flock cameras or another thing like
you know um surveillance and government overages like kind of they're bread and butter so it's
going to be I think it's going to be a really tough sell for I was told that the status of change
is mine by somebody close to him that he changed his mind when it was discovered that there are
flock cameras popping up at gun ranges all across Florida yeah if if you want to intersect the
libertarian gun right uh guys and the anti surveillance people um left right and center there's a
way to do it there it is yeah exactly yeah and same with you know like I think I just think we are
going to start to be having a lot of really interesting it's funny sometimes I still could speak to
people who think that like opposition to AI and data centers is an entirely left idea and it's like
no no you are really going to start seeing um very strange coalitions pop up uh there are some
there are some actual thoughtful people on the on the right really starting to ponder things like
AI personhood yeah yeah and you know that that is a real that it's it's not a question for this
year but it ain't too many years no and I I am um there's uh Ed Anguei so who is like a prominent
writer and he um you know uh is is really good on like tech on the left and stuff you know he wrote
this fabulous essay a few days ago where he kind of um posits that we've been thinking of
tech as either forward or back right it's it's either we're moving forward or moving backwards and
we really need to expand how we think about technological progress to not just like are we making
technological progress or are we trying to go to not make technological progress but we're making
technological progress who is it serving and if we are going backwards who is that serving right
like you need to start incorporating different modes of thinking about these issues because
you are going to start to see like I said you know Ken Paxton against data centers but like legally
liable for what does it mean if a chatbot harms a child does it mean that a chatbot told a child
that they could you know that from their gender right like what is that you know what are these
things actually mean that an Instagram post that led to some young girl self-harming I mean which
is a known effect the issue that would you know based on that incredible early going in this lawsuit
with social harm social media harms yeah it I think it will I think the legal aspects of
of the next wave of AI development are going to be things that we are we are ill equipped right now
to caution yeah it's a minefield it's a total minefield and I think I think data centers are
doing a service as helping some people rearrange how they think about these issues and coalitions
and like where kind of like what are we talking about when we talk about stuff like this it's I
don't know it's I'm honestly endlessly fascinating it's so there are a lot of fascinating rabbit holes
here I know like I'm in the in the course of writing my new book I've been deep in this rabbit hole
about hyper persuasion an AI and how it applies to politics and how what we've seen growing over time
in terms of the ability to persuade voters is that that ramp is very much up into the right right
now almost you know asymptotically vertical and it's like there are going to be questions about
human cognitive liberty that are going to be bound up in this expansion of the capacity of AI
and thus the data centers we know we know again I had trouble even finding enough people who were
who were truly knowledgeable about it at this phase of of the story yeah to write effectively
about the subject because it is it is a yeah that's one of those things like that's like fusion
if you get to this point where where everyone has a as a bespoke reality created by AI
that is there news and information bubble that's crafted just to them yeah do they still have
agency yeah yeah yeah and we're philosophical questions but here we are yeah and you know also like
I think when when complicating thing about these types of topics is like you know
So a lot of people who have been thinking deeply about them all know each other and they've
all been in--
Sure.
So look in Valley for years and sometimes their conversations are like kind of incomprehensible.
Even though they're, you know, they're talking about, it's like a very, it's kind of this
confusing new world that is breaking out for the rest of us and we sort of have to catch
up and, you know, at the same time we have like a famously not very technologically savvy
set of folks leading us in Washington who are, I just don't think very well prepare
to have these types of conversations, you know?
I mean, remember, it isn't long ago that we had a U.S. Center referring to the Internet
as a series of tubes, so--
Exactly.
Which it is.
That's what it is.
Well, Molly Taff, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Molly is a senior writer at Wired.
Um, so, but those are my two main forms of communication.
Okay.
Well, thank you again, Molly.
We'll talk to you soon.
Thank you so much.
Yay.
[MUSIC]
The Lincoln Project podcast is a Lincoln Project production, executive produced by Whitney
Hayes, then Howe, and Joy Wart are chaining edited by Riley Mane.
Hey folks, if you want to support the Lincoln Project's work against Donald Trump, Elon Musk
and this Maga craziness, go to action.lincolnproject.us/helpLP.
You'd like to get in touch or have suggestions for a guest or a show topic, or just want
to say hi.
The email is
[email protected]. For our Maga friends, please, no more news.
Thanks so much.
We'll talk to you again next time.
And good luck.
Then join me and my friends at loonstarkaceno.com.
No matter where you are, loonstarkaceno.com is an absolutely free-to-place social casino
with thousands of games, daily bonuses, free spins, and jackpots that pop like five
fireworks.
Hit Puzz on Life and hit play on loonstarkaceno.com
Loonstarkaceno is a free-to-place social casino.
Voidware prohibited.
Play bold, win big!
Smart Bunny!
Smart Bunny!
Planning your next adventure, whether you're heading to a sunny beach in another state
or exploring new cities in Europe, there's one thing you shouldn't leave behind.
Peace of mind.
The Smart Bunny Insurance app Travel Insurance is just a hop away.
In just 60 seconds, you can secure up to $1 million of coverage for medical emergencies
or get trip protection for delays or cancellations right from your phone.
No paperwork, no hassle, just simple, affordable travel insurance wherever you roam.
Download the free Smart Bunny app today on your phone and use it when you need it.
Whether you're a frequent flyer or a weekend roadtripper, Smart Bunny's got your back.
So before you pack your bags, pack your peace of mind.
Download the Smart Bunny Insurance app today and travel smarter.
Wherever you go, we go with you.
Smart Bunny Insurance, fast, easy, and always ready to hop into action.
Smart Bunny!
Smart Bunny!
Smart Bunny!
Insurance sold by Smart Bunny Insurance Services ain't kind of written by various insurers.
Coverage exclusions and limitations may apply.
No matter where you are, loonstarkaceno.com is an absolutely free-to-play social casino with thousands of games, daily bonuses, free spins and jackpots that pop like fireworks.
Hit pause on life and hit play on loonstarkaceno.com.
Loonstarkaceno is a free-to-play social casino, voidware prohibited.
Play bold, win big.
PodcastTranscript AI