S4 Ep30: Turning Sustainability into a Positive Business Case with Jonatan Roose, Co-Founder at Healthy Workers

[MUSIC] Hello everyone, welcome to a new episode of Tech Can Save us podcast brought to you by the little humans. I'm joined today by Jonathan Ruse, the co-founder at Healthy Workers and we're going to talk about turning sustainability into a positive business case. Welcome to the pod. >> Thank you. Nice to be here. >> Yeah, good to have you on the pod. I'm going to jump into a long, well-deserved introduction right here. I'm excited because Jonathan is an incredible entrepreneur who's really revolutionizing the real estate industry. We're doing here at Healthy Workers and we're in Amsterdam by the way. You can see a windmill out the window here. They're making every building smart and I think that's really the key is sustainability and as your name suggests, Healthy Workers through innovative building automation and energy management solutions. So since they're founding, Healthy Workers has grown to manage over 3 million square meters across offices, logistics, light industrial and retail spaces. Jonathan brings a rich entrepreneurial background having previously co-founded crowd it. That start up building online communities for enterprises and has served as a product owner at Pleng Spa. The company now serves over 60 real estate investors including major players like Schroeder's Capital, EPF, Aviva Investors, and is it Dutch RE. All right, well, so we're doing the introductions. Welcome to the pod. Thank you for joining. Last time we met, it was Amsterdam Dance Event. Yes. You guys were organizing a party and I just stumbled in here and you're like, yeah, yeah, okay, we got a party. So get out of here. But now we're here to talk about the incredible innovation that Y'all have catalyzed that Healthy Workers. We like to kind of first set the scene. So help our listeners understand what's going on while you're doing it. Obviously, most are from there with climate change and the impact that buildings have. But smart building technology and building automation are not entirely new concepts. They're experiencing explosive growth as sustainability becomes critical. So from a market level perspective, can you tell us what's fundamentally broken about how commercial buildings are managed today? Yeah, definitely. I think what you mentioned is very interesting. Almost all the technology that we're using is maybe even 30 years old. Like it's all technology, old methods, old theories. But the thing is that the world is moving quite fast, but the real estate industry actually goes quite slow. And the last few years, they may be moved from analog to digital, but that's about it. And I think what we have noticed that in the real estate industry, most people are not the biggest contributors to sustainability and it's all about business case. Sure. And it's not that they're not willing to innovate, but it has to be a positive business case to put money in effort in there. And it's an enormous industry. Like so of our clients on 60 to 600 billions of years and assets. So the money is there, but it should be an interesting case to innovate. And I think that's what we did differently. We find a way to make this very technical problem where most of the users make us don't have any idea of or understanding of to make it understandable. And that's step one. And the second step is to explain them what they will achieve with it. So for example, higher rents, more habitant, but also make it so easy for them that it's a no-brainer to at least try it out. I will say, let's just try it out. Let's do it with one or two buildings. We will show what we can do. And then if you convince you continue, and otherwise we stop. Give us the background of like I know buildings have been historically treated as kind of like a set it and forget it asset. Right. So it's just sat there. Why is that the case when it comes to energy and climate management and what are the inefficiencies that you're seeing in real estate and the possibility of like automation to kind of addresses and efficiencies? Yeah, good question. I think it's difficult. It's a technical problem where a lot of different systems have to talk with each other. Back in the days, all those systems were really closed off. But we're like silos that couldn't talk with each other. Luckily nowadays, there's more and more regulations that are actually requiring these different vendors to talk with each other. Very good for us. Very good for us. And like normally I'm not about rules, but currently the EU is having very good rules for us. Everything else is a very good thing about it. So that's a good progress. Because then it becomes about compliance. Like they need to comply with regulation and enter healthy workers. You can help them do that. Exactly. And it is that little extra step that allows them to say, alright, let's give it a shot. And then once they try it out, they see, hey, it actually earns me a lot of money. But also it takes a lot of thoughts and issues of my plate. I think that makes a difference. Like at first, always a little bit hesitant, say alright. I kind of like you guys. So let's give this shot. But then the moment I can see that there are tens of my happy, there's less complaints. Let's go up. You see, of course, higher scoring in their sustainability certifications. And to come and back to your question, like in the beginning, the role silos, and now, for example, our platform, we bring all the data together. And therefore we can analyze it and do it on the biggest scale. But also make more time efficient. Like back in the day, that an instant company and they would go to a single building had to check all the different variables. It would have taken you more than a week to check everything. So nobody did it. So more than 70% of the buildings are actually not optimized for the users that are currently having. So maybe at a certain point in time, it was good. But the building is a living thing. There's new tenants coming in, new sustainability equipment that's being installed. So every time when something changes, you have to optimize the building again. And that's just really hard. We don't have the tooling and the information to do it correctly. And you're giving them kind of the foundation to start thinking about that, measuring that and to execute it, I guess? Yeah, we're like an extra tool in a toolbox. A lot of these big buildings, you can imagine you have a building of 100 million euros. And you asked them what's the temperature on the fourth floor. Nobody can tell you because either not monitored or not measured or not stored. But just starting off with a base data layer, giving them also the options to look back in time and see, hey, how is this building actually affected by the weather or affected by the usage? And then together with installation company, we can do great things. And I think that's also what I really believe in. It shouldn't be siloes, not in technology, but also not in collaboration. We always work together with the property manager with the installation company with the tenants to get the most out of the building. I think that's what makes it really different. Maybe you blew my mind when we spoke last time I was here, you talked about like every building had the computer. So simple. And I think most people intuitively maybe understand that, but they don't think about how it operates and what it can do and what data can give you and things like that. So I love that framing and the way you mentioned it. Yeah. And I think it's important to also bring it back to very simple concepts because at the end, the decision makers in real-sale companies, they're mostly bankers, you know, excel sheets and they know how to make more money for a good investment. But they're not the guys that are day-to-day busy with technology in the building. So by bringing it back to a computer with the system is on and off with which settings it also makes it more understandable and makes it more easy to make the right choices. I paint the picture of like the regulatory environment. I was just meeting with the folks at Sao Larax and they were talking about a regulation here in Amsterdam where like I think it's like 70% of the building's energy needs to be produced by the building or something like that. And I guess across Holland it's like 50%. So like, can you paint the regulatory picture for us to help us understand? Yeah, definitely. So I think there's a lot of abbreviations of regulatory laws. But I think there's a couple of months that are really important at the moment. Oh, first of all, you have the SFDR. It's a financial regulation. As I mentioned before, I clearly am mostly almost like bankers that have funds and those funds are actually helping to make the world more sustainable. And they have article 689 that allow you to explain to your investors how green your funds is. So this is a very important one that we use a lot. We have the CSRD, which is more for Foxonpodate tenant. If you have a corporate organization, then they of course have to comply with this regulation and report on how green their operations are, including their building. And lastly, we have the Bucks Regulators Building Automation and Convall System. This one requires for every large building to have a system that continuously monitors energy that actually sees when energy efficiency is possible. And automatically reports this to the building owner or the property manager and requires that all the systems are talking together. And so it couldn't be better for us because it's art. Perfect. You saw this, the BACS regulatory issue. Exactly. And we had a big subsidy about three years ago, which was exactly Foxonpodate, and the regulation came into place two years ago. So we're perfectly aligned. Subtaining for building owners or for us. So it was for us. We had a subsidy to implement artificial intelligence into our systems to achieve this new state, which they now call Pox Systems. So with AI, we are monitoring and making sure that everything is controlled, like it's our control system. And therefore we can manage so many more buildings that are continuously checked on every aspect instead of having to do everything manually. What's like an example of a kind of alert that would come up from the Bucks system and how it gets addressed? Like I think about this and I'm renting an Airbnb and I'm leaving the water on for a while. I've left the heat on and I think I did actually. So like sorry. So like, yeah, tell me like giving examples or audience understands. I think a very good example is in your building, you already have your building automation system and they have a lot of alerts for example when your system stays on or is broken. So we are looking in as a control system is the level on top of that. So imagine it's the summer period and you have a very cold summer night of maybe 15 degrees and then your boilers are going on. Well, the indoor climate is still 21 degrees or higher. So then you're heating your building because outside it's cold, but you're building inside it's still hot and all the current billion automation systems, they don't capture this moment. And that's the layer we add on top. Now we can make sure that this is corrected and it doesn't. go on or we can rewrite the logic behind the system that it doesn't look at just the outside temperature but also looks to the indoor temperature. Smarter buildings. We make it smarter. Interesting. So getting back to the money and energy questions, how much energy and money do you feel like building owners are sort of leaving on the table when they don't actively optimize their building systems? How do you calculate and share that potential ROI with them? So we always aim and deliver on 100% of investment within one year. 100%. 100%. Yes. So where the only sustainability action you can take that earns itself back within a year. It's ridiculous. Let's say if you look at, for example, solar panels it takes like about five to seven, maybe 10 years nowadays. So it's incredibly fast. But the thing is we looked at most buildings and we know that at least we can save, let's say 15%, it's almost like a certain. But we see most buildings go up to 20, 30% and some even to 50 to 60% within a year, within a year with just software improvements. That's just software. That's not even an implementation of what you find. Exactly. And that's also what we are different than most other sustainability things you can do is that we purely focus on what's already in that building. We don't have any extra system that you have to install. But also make sure that there's no extra emissions that are added because of course when you build a new, air handling unit, for example, it also takes a lot of emissions to install and have older. So nothing is coming into the building under it's all just optimization of the existing infrastructure. So to that point, like in this is sort of pulling us out of the diagnosis questions, do you think it's a technology problem, is it an awareness problem or is it something deeper than the real estate industry that's like kind of causing it to be a bit slower on this or not not optimized as quickly as they should? I think it's a combination of all of those. I think it starts off with an awareness. I think a lot of people will be willing to innovate, but they just simply don't know what is needed or how to do it. Also, I think the technology has grown a lot in the last couple of years. If you look at five years ago and now it's a totally different world. How can they keep up? Like it's kind of, yeah, like do you see that when you introduce the technology or you just like blowing their minds in terms of what the data says? Or what is their emotional reaction when they see the data? Yeah, we always tell that people that we're on board, it's like the first time we have a sales meeting, people would say, whoa, is this already possible? And that's the thing we want to keep up. As soon as people don't react like that anymore, we're doing a bad joke. So that's one thing. You want to maintain that one thing. Exactly. Okay, interesting. Let's move into talking about your products and your company. So a lot of our listeners are maybe new to healthy workers. Focus through the platform, how it works and what differentiates it from traditional building management systems. Yeah. So what we do is we have a three step approach. We first measure everything. So all the data points in your building are automatically get it into our system. So think of the inner climate sensors like temperature or CO2 for ventilation, but also your energy meters like your gas or electricity. But also the primary processes. Or all for what settings, same for your boilers, ventilation, etc. All this raw data goes into our platform and there will be monitoring and analyze it. So we have a sort of abstract layer. Okay. That means that in the industry, people always look at buildings and say every building is different. So it's very difficult. Yes, every building is different. It's not that different. So we met in between layer that allows us to even though every building is different, we can make algorithms that run on every building. And that makes us scalable. And then all this raw information is turned into insights. And those insights are then used for actual improvements. So that is the one hand we can make automated changes. We can work together with installation complete to make changes. We can work together with any other stakeholders in the building to maybe change their behavior. But either way, we also actually make that improvement. Okay. So the improvements are truly automated and how much are involving stakeholders. We have to do something with the existing infrastructure. Yes. So I think I would say all the analysis is automated. But the access are maybe 50/50. And there's also some times people say we can solve everything with AI. Not yet. I think we can solve a lot with AI and a lot with automation. But at the end, you also need the tenants to be in a certain way. Or maybe you are having renovations done. Then you also need to take that into account. Or maybe you have neighbors that have complaints about noise. And then you also have to adjust your systems that may be not optimal for sustainability, but you still need to do it. And I guess like how does the system decide when and how to optimize building performance? I guess like inside, like you have like really give us down to the, you know, the nitty-gritty. Like it seems this and then it changes this. Like, when I understand that. Yeah. So on a building level, we look at the different possible scenarios. And with the client, we decide what's the most important. So in some cases that is energy efficiency. Some case it's in the climate. Sometimes it's something different. And all those settings are set up in our into a platform. And we try to make use as much of standardized systems for this. So for example, if they care a lot about in the climate, we look at the well-building standard. If they care a lot about the energy efficiency, we look at the standards that they're using for the, the program of an ice is what we call the Netherlands. Like they're building requirements that says a light. For example, it's just always been 20, 24 degrees. And we'll just find the way to keep it that way in the most energy efficient way. But we also use for example machine learning AI to predict what the end of climate will be. So then we can adjust the systems. Like looking at the weather or like how are you predicting? Look at the weather. And one of my favorites is actually we look a lot at water data. Okay. Because occupations sensors are really expensive. Yeah. And there's a very good indicator of how many people are currently in the building. I use that. Just what I use is because if you're there, you wash your hands, you don't bother you, go to the toilet. So hopefully it's a very good indicator to see how much people are actually in the building. So we see very big differences. For example, on the holiday holidays, but also on the winds, there are fires when people work from home. And we use all this data because a smart one of me is maybe a couple hundred euros. But if you have occupancy sensors throughout your whole building, you're talking about tens of thousands of euros. So we like those data based. How do you put in safe cars? And this is a, I feel like the debate that don't compromise occupancy comfort for efficiency. And how do you like, okay, we want to keep it between 2024, but say grandma's cold and it's at 25 or something. You know what I mean? Like how do you address that and the human element, I guess. Yeah, we always start with setting the corn for boundaries. So we say what are the comfort boundaries that you want to set up and then from that point on, we're going to say all right, from now on, we're going to make it so as energy efficiency is possible. Okay. So the comfort is always number one and then energy efficiency is number two. Okay. That's the only way to do it because otherwise indeed you will get more complaints. And what we notice when you get complaints, people are going to go the other way around and it starts using a lot of energy just to get rid of those complaints and then you can start all over again. So comfort boundaries are step one always. Anything else you want to say about the product before we kind of move into gross strategy? Maybe one last thing, like I think what I really believe in is a collaboration. So we focus a lot on service. Sometimes we also say like we are 50% of other company, 50% of service companies. Maybe the typical enterprise size. But I see in this world a special real estate, we need to also help people out with understanding with doing the step with sometimes reminding them that service element I think is crucial to our success. Yeah, I think about the London real estate market and like the service is so bad, it's like in terms of estate agents, sorry to all the state agents out there. But like you know it's it's you know young people they don't give a damn and they're just kind of showing a million apartments a day and stuff like that. And I think real estate there's a real opportunity to kind of have like excellent service and to do it really well. Exactly. Yeah, that's great. So healthy workers you all sit at kind of the intersection of like prop tech, sustainability, institutional real estate. That's not easy. Like you're kind of at this interesting nexus. So help us understand like the biggest challenges in growing the company to manage over three million square meters of property like you know what would have been the hardest moments in terms of getting investors like comfortable with the new technology and you know building trust and in a you know a conservative market. I think it's a couple of things over the years of course, but I think the moment we when I took over how to work with with Gusebacovounder. I was really young and it's a relatively older community of entrepreneurs. And therefore something was difficult to get a lot of respect with the trust that you are doing the right thing. Luckily Gusebacovounder has a lot of experience in real estate as a little bit older still young, a little bit overhead. But sometimes it was difficult to get a trust at first. So we focused a lot on relations making sure that they first knew us and then gave us the shot to try it out. And then we knew we could do it. Like we just needed to get the ball rolling. How did you focus on those relations? Like what was the process? Like were you just taking them out to dinner? Were you grabbing beers? Were you showing up in their office? Like what were you? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a couple of things. I think first of all always physical meetings. Just have to shake hands. Yeah. I get to know each other. I think also it's showing that you know about the world and understand what their problems are. I think it helped with Gusebacovounder's previous companies, B.M. Cedem, B.I. ecosystem for starbs with a big co-working area. So he experienced first-hand those issues. So the combination of his personal experience, my technical knowledge, could help us to explain them what their problems are and how we've been. could solve it. And I think with the physical meetings, taking the F2 go there, taking the time to explain them through it. And also, I think, scene was a partner from the start. Like sometimes in real estate, people are really happy if they get a job and we just said, like, hey, we're either going to do it together or not going to do it, but we're equals. I think that's something that people value for us. In our company, also speak up is our most important culture value. Sometimes that's very direct. I think in this market, people appreciate that you're direct and speak honest, combination of those two helped us to always get the first deal rolling. And then we also said, like, don't give us your 100 buildings at once. This gives us one or two. We'll prove ourselves and then we keep on talking. It's interesting. And like we're this trip to Amsterdam putting together a bit of an insight support about all the different startups we're talking to. And I was trying to find the common thread. And I was just like, man, it's going to be really hard. They're all really different. It's all been physical. Like, especially in the era of the I'm, we're so digital and everything sort of, you know, LMS and machine learning. Every single person I talked to has had a sort of physical element to their gross strategy. And that's a refreshing, you know. And so I'm excited to write about it and draw that through line of that physicality. And I think it's so important. I think we have the, we are lucky in the lens that everything is so close by. So I think as long as we can, we should take that advantage. But we also now make the first steps abroad from from Germany, UK, Luxembourg, Belgium. And even there, we want to keep up the same strategy because we just know this is what works. So why would you change the winning everything strategy? So digging more into that strategy, so like are there particular moments in the client journey that you're trying to reach where the, you know, the property owners, they really start to see and feel the value of healthy workers and the partnership that you have. And they want to, and they want to grow it. Like, what is that moment look like and feel like for you? Yeah, I think it's, it's to, to side it. Like, we always focus on implementing the energy monitoring at first. So then we have a very short time to value sometimes already in a couple of weeks. So we could show them what we are seeing. Like we make it visual, stating, hey, this is all the points where we think things go wrong. And then in the meantime, we implement the full solution. And then we can solve those issues for them. So I think within a couple of weeks, we showed them the problem in their own building. And then in a couple of months, we solved that problem. And that's the moment they are experiencing what we are trying to do. And from that point on, we also see it's a no brainer to continue throughout the whole portfolio. Yeah, that speed to like, you know, time kills deals, right? So like that speed to kind of like, here's the value that we bring. I think we see that a lot in our space. People take forever to do diagnosis and they don't show value. And people are like, what are we doing here? You know, so really appreciate that, that buyer's journey that you have getting more into your journey. I think you've got like a super interesting story that, that, that, you know, I will see how much of it you want to, you want to share. But yeah, about what happened with this company and how you sort of came in. I've not heard any story like that. And I know we talked about that last time. You've got computer science. You've got entrepreneurship, different successful ventures in your background. I want to hear how your personal journey kind of shaped both the idea for how the worker is like the pivot, I would say. And how you build the company since taking over. Yeah. Walk us through that. Yeah, maybe we could start off a little context about my personal journey. So I started off as entrepreneur when I was 15. It's a mid website and even my mom had to sign off all the contracts because lately I could not. Thanks mom. It helps out. And from there on, I started doing computer science. I met a couple of friends and my dream was always to have a company with friends. So at the certain point, I could join their company ID. So I stopped with school as a typical entrepreneur. And then we had crowded. I think it was really interesting. We were all quite young guys, but we were making software for the biggest banks in the world. Like we had this launch a customer, I and G. We went to, as with them with a second bay, we went to America with J. Morgan Chase. We were like 21. We were not allowed to fly together. Like there was all these kind of regulations, but it was really incredible to get this learning so early on. And as for the point, our paths split. And then I was looking, all right, how we're going to learn as an entrepreneur. Like the previous companies were always put strapped with Chrome with own funding, on growth. So I was thinking like, okay, how am I going to learn? I need to find an entrepreneur that's learning. So I can learn from their mistakes or problems. And it actually got me into contact with the current CEO of Healthy Workers, because it did already exist since 2016. And I thought I'm like, hey, I just want to be involved in the investment grounds. And in the meantime, I'll do any job you have for me. So I'd value it to the company, but I also can learn and involved how and investment rounds just like to sort of see them learn like, yeah, what was your, yeah, mostly, well, support him or any task that he could handle it to me. So he could focus on the conversations, like to do the Excel, she's in the presentations and the sort of lower work, but which actually gives you all the insights, right? You're really involved. And I think that helped me to better understand the market, better understand our investors, but healthy workers, one point always we call it, was focused on anything that had to do with healthy work environment. Also, why the name is a little bit distracting for what we're currently doing. And they had a lot of learnings and it did a lot of very cool projects, but during Corona, when all the offices were empty, I just didn't work out. So that was the point that the certain point was like the company was searching, CEO searching, like, what are we're going to do? Well, then the conclusion was, this is not going to work out. The current concept is not what is going to work. In the meantime, I was thinking about, hey, I think there are concepts that we can do, but there can be a really different from what we're doing. So then I got into the cruise. The cruise was one of the investors to BMs to them, and was involved in looking, hey, how can we fix this ship while we're being corona in the storm? Here's an active investor for healthy workers, one point now. Yes, exactly. How did you know to reach out to cruise? Well, he actually reached out to us. And there were discussions with the CEO, like, what's the path forward? And it didn't work out. So they were like, all right, now we have to complete the restructure. So that was the moment that Ruz and I came up with a new idea and thought, hey, we can actually fix this company and build something great. How did you land on building optimization? Yes. So in the first couple of years, there was a lot of research with employees and 85% of the complaints were always about the indoor climate. So they're doing all this broad work on different aspects of healthy work environments. And then you looked at the research and they're like, okay, most of the complaints are 80% or about the built environment. So exactly. You looked at the data, you're like, we're going to focus there. Yes. Okay. Because we did all those pilots, even from yoga sessions, we did plans in the office. Everything was done. And this was the core element that always came back and it's the biggest issue. And I was thinking, but this is something that should be able to be automated. I put my petrion's background, I was like, everything in the talk with each other, then you're down and foot up, you're peace. Of course, it wasn't that issue. It's not back then. But the idea was, I think we validated that concept with a couple of the investors and said, all right, if this is what you're going to build, and definitely we're going to commit to 100,000 square meters of buildings, that's going to be going. And then was the moment that Groose and I were convinced this is a good idea. So let's work it out and let's crumble. And then, conversation with the board, you were able to kind of move into the leadership role. Yes. We had a lot of flexibility there and we could re-structure the whole company. Wow. And that allowed me a Groose to take a different stake. But also allowed us to grow with the network of the investors. We have a lot of real estate parties that are invested in us. And it allows us for network, allows us for knowledge, and especially in the first year, a lot of learnings, because we could use their buildings to try out and test out and learn what we did not do right. So you could pilot it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So how many pilots did you run in the first year? I think we did about 15 buildings in the first year. So it was quite a good first year, and a lot of learnings. What would you say, like the gap is between what you were doing in that first year and what you're doing now in terms of quality and delivery and sophistication. It's made to different. I think 5X, 10X, are we talking here? Now, currently definitely 10X. 10X. Yeah. If you look at the first year, we're mostly focusing on just, we call it almost like an uptime monitor of your inner climate, just to start off to know, isn't it actually good or not? Yeah, sure. Because only if you know, then you know if you have to change anything. So that's what we focused on first. They were moved to when the Ukraine work came, of course, energy prices went up. So that was for us a very important moment to start with energy monitoring. But inner climate and energy are both a result of your settings, of course. Okay. So then we started including also the settings of the building and connecting to the computer of the building, the building management system. And from there on, we had very good results. And then our clients were also like, but we want to show it. Then we did the build of eSG reporting and then we started with AI and ultimately more and more. So I think, yeah, it's also a very natural approach of grown products, but now it's definitely 10X better than what we started with. And how much is like new technology like pushing into what you're doing to kind of even further help you optimize other examples of like, hey, this thing's been developed, we can now push this into our stack and improve what we do for building. Yeah, I think there's a couple of things, but I think the machine learning or the AI is the most interesting one. We have always had a problem with the manual check of gas data, for example, because when you heat a building, the one day you can have zero gas and the other day you can have 10,000 cubic gas. And it can be either a gas leak or it can be completely logical. So that's so difficult to make standard algorithm for it. But with machine learning we can do trend analysis and can understand if it's logical that the one day it's zero and the other day it's 10k. I think that helps us a lot to understand in the buildings without having to click through it manually on my one as they are currently doing still a lot in the market. That and also of course predicting towards the future with the weather, with the you search, with actually any kind of trend that can help us analyze it. It's amazing that you're doing all this even before anything new is being introduced to the building. Is that another horizon in terms of like bringing in sort of new infrastructure or tools and curious about that? Yes and no I think we have a very average group of buildings like we're currently about 500 buildings so we have a good average set. But the problem is like 95-98% of the buildings in the oil exist. A couple of them but the rest of the rest of the and they have a pro-of-the-lost statement for let's say 20-20 years. So most of the buildings don't have a budget to do very big renovations in the middle of it. So we focused on making software that is profitable or any type of building and of course new buildings we love them because things are live a lot easier. So you are working with new construction and plugging it in beforehand. Yes we do that as well and that is really easy for us. But we can also do with the older buildings. That is the big difference because with the newer buildings it's a lot easier to do it right from the start. But to do with an old building that's so much harder. Super interesting. I'm going to take us into the lightning round questions out. Yes. It's kind of like the fun getting to know you questions. I'm going to hold it to give me your like you know quick answer that came in your mind and maybe like a sentence or two just why. You're busy with healthy workers but you've clearly shown your entrepreneur who likes to move fast and fix things. So if you could start another tech startup what would it be in line? Good question. It's completely different. I would love to build this sort of like a cyberpunk club. As mentioned like with the Amsterdam's event party it's like bringing events bringing people together the communities from crowded. It is always something that I enjoyed and I was always combined with technology so indeed with I know all of them girls with a perfect light show, the best music. That's cool. Something like that and then bringing technology together with the communities I think that that would be epic. That's very cool. Very cool. Talk about tech inventions. One makes you the most excited or one makes you the most concerned right now. I think what's most exciting that currently with very little budget you can build very cool things. Yes. So far and hardware. So you can see so many people building crazy stuff or maybe back in days would be the Einstein's and are building a YouTube crazy inventions. I think that's really exciting. Anything the most worrying one is AI. I think a lot of people underestimate how quick it goes nowadays and people underestimate how few people understand the technology. How can you misuse as a result even? Some people intentionally but some people just will make mistakes and sort of. Yeah. Something that's something that definitely will make a bigger impact year over year but yeah sometimes it's a bit scary. We like to ask about that because obviously we're called tech and save us. We like to feature people who are using tech to kind of help the world but we have to address that kind of other side of it as well. So we appreciate your answer there. Talking about people who's a literal human that you want to shout out who has been integral to your career journey. I don't know if one idol but I think during the journey I've met a lot of amazing people that always teach me a little bit. And I think mostly learned me more about myself. So I think one of the people was an old boss Ralph. He always said like do the thing you think will work from the product perspective. So it gave me more trust in my ability to build good products. But in the other end also Gruj, my co-founder for example helped me lot by being more myself. I can remember that in the first year sometimes we go to client and it would be a nice closure head. Well are you worrying? Why are you worrying this? Why are you not a man? Like always that mask and it's like you're a founder be yourself. Like you have something to bring. You don't have to act. So I think that that helped me a lot with personal growth and therefore also with the entrepreneur. I think that's we're talking about 80-D80 HD and the club. There's a lot of masking effect though. And you realize I was doing this in the past because I was trying to you know. Yeah absolutely. How about any inspirational quotes or sayings that have followed you in your career and tech? Yeah maybe a bit strange when it's well. I always remember with with crowd with one client and it was not not the easiest client and sometimes you're the feeling you could never do anything right. And then at certain point I did do a major fuckup and then he actually told me you know a humorous are working ex-harmate. So he was really understanding. I had so not expected. I had expected like this discussion and everything but I know it fucked up and he was just so chill about it and it helped me realize this is actually true throughout my journey. It helped me with two things. First of all the also open for people that make mistakes. Then the other hand also focusing on automating because if you kind of avoid the mistakes it's even better. That's interesting. I mean that's part of the reason we named ourselves a little human because like it just reminds people like how are you gonna yell out little humans you know it's like well they have to say that you know like okay well I'm just yelling at people but also like you know we had a client last night who you know we messed up a design and they were like look we love you guys but like we need us to be better it was like okay and that show that we built up you know some social capital yeah and capital that and it was a good conversation we're gonna fix the designs fine so I appreciate you saying that yeah yeah definitely we also do we do weekly check out with the team and we ask everyone for their one fell forward from from the week so like how would have you done that you learn from that you know felt bad but you learned from it so lessons versus losses you know so very important thing yeah yeah well as I love this episode because I think the work that you're doing and healthy workers shows that you know you can drive real environmental impact but also you know provide tangible you know financial value for building owners and entrepreneurs and investors so big final what y'all are doing and I appreciate the the moat you've got and the you've got huge scale in front of you so really cool to talk to you about all your your growth strategies and your plans today so thanks for making the time yeah thanks a lot enjoyed the conversation again same as last time yeah I talked a lot enjoyed it so thank you so much um working folks find out more about healthy workers on the interwebs they can always find anything on healthy workers.com or reach out you can look at my LinkedIn and you can find my content details there nice nice or we'll put that in the episode description and yeah folks listening please give us a review and a five start rating so we can keep bringing a more great guest like Jonathan Roo's co-founder of Healthy Workers thanks y'all