S3E11 Rewiring Your Mind: The Science of Neurofeedback with Angie Noack

Hi, I'm Mona and you are listening to "Monovated," a podcast where I skip the small talk and dive right into meaningful conversations about every aspect of wellness. We cover it all, mind, body, and soul. Prepare to leave each episode feeling inspired to live your best life. Let's get into this week's episode. Hey everyone, welcome back to "Monovated." In today's episode, we are diving into something I find so fascinating and that's neurofeedback. So, neurofeedback, if you're not familiar, is a science-backed way of training the brain. And it uses real-time feedback to help us shift into healthier, more balanced states. It's something I've been doing for over a year and seen truly incredible results on. I've shared a little bit of it on social, but I really wanted to get into a more detailed conversation because I love going into all the details and I really think you'll find this fascinating. So, I have one of the leads of brain code centers, Angie Noah here, and we're going to explore everything. Like, what happens inside the brain during neurofeedback? How it can help anything from anxiety to focus, to ADHD, to depression, to even specific fears like fear of flying. We get into that, so at the end she goes into how she helped one person with that specific fear and public speaking. It's really, really cool. I think it's an episode you're really going to enjoy. If you could explain neurofeedback in the most simple terms for someone who hasn't heard of it, doesn't know what we're talking about. How would you describe it? Absolutely. So, neurofeedback seems like a really complex situation, right? Like, oh my gosh, the brain training, what exactly is it? It boils down to operant conditioning. So, that is what we're doing. We're operantly conditioning the brain to work differently and to serve someone better. So, the way in which we get started is with a QEG. It's a quantitative electroencephalogram, which is similar to like a CT or a spect image, except that we're not only looking for structural damage. Right? We're looking at the electrical and the neurological wave activity happening in the brain. You're not looking for damage at all. You're only looking for the waves. Can you see both? Yes. I mean, it'll give us indicators. If somebody has had a school fracture or a brain injury, we're definitely going to see those indicators. But it's not going to be the same as an MRI, which is like, oh, look at this, you know, hematoma or a brain bleed or something like that. It's not going to show us exactly that. But I have XNFL players come in or current NFL players who are having tons of post-concussive syndrome and had a normal MRI. Right? It just means that they don't necessarily have something structurally wrong. But then we do a QEG and we see all of these things going on, of why they feel foggy and grumpy and can't sleep and have, you know, all of these issues going on, it's like, oh, that makes sense, they were just looking at the wrong thing. Right? So, that's really what we're looking at is the neurological and electrical wave activity happening in the brain. And yes, we treat, you know, brain injuries and, you know, things like that, anxiety, depression, trauma, PTSD, all of those things as well. So, start there and then the actual neurofeedback is that operant conditioning. It's reward training. Think about puppy with treat. Right? We tell puppy to sit, give it a treat, it repeats the behavior because it wants the reward. An operant conditioning is reward conditioning essentially? Yeah, that's right. So, the headset that you wear at home, right? You have a headset. The electrodes embedded into that headset are only picking up information. Right? They're not putting anything in, no stimulus going into the brain. And then the kind of feedback loop of neurofeedback is the headset's going to pick it up. It's going to go into an amplifier, into software, on your phone, on your app, and then be fed back to you through visual and auditory reward, watching listening. And things are very much working as a mirror for your brain, that your brain gets to experience in real time what it's doing and training itself. So, let's use anxiety, for example, just as, you know, we have a culture riddled with anxiety and stress, right? That when someone has anxiety and stress, a lot of times I see fast wave activity happening in the brain. Beta and high beta, which are the two fastest brain waves. So, in extremely layman's terms, kind of what I would do on the back end as a clinician would be to inhibit some of that fast wave activity and reward slower wave activity, as we need a little bit of each. Right? We sure don't need. Tons and tons of fast and nothing left over for slow. So, that's what we'll put in on the back. But basically what the person or the client experiences is maybe a show or a brain game or a podcast where their screen is going in and out of brightness. This is novelty reward for the brain, that their volume is going up and down. This is novelty reward for the brain. And we know that humans crave novelty. That's what social media is, that's what video games are, our only novelty reward for the brain. If we give the brain those hits of dopamine and that novelty, when it's producing only what we're asking it to, we do that enough times over time that we commit new patterns to permanency. So, if I'm understanding this correctly, I do neurofuebacat home. I love brain concentrators. So, I'm watching my podcast or cooking show or whatever. So, during that process, my brain is going through all different types of ways. When it hits the wave that you want more of, it gets rewarded. And when it hits the wave I don't want, like I say it's going too much beta, then it's going to dim the color or turn on the volume. So, I'm watching it and I'm like, I can't see anything. Is that what happens? You're exactly right. So, the brain, because our brain's crave novelty right, when they're not receiving that. So, when you're watching your show and your screen is really dark and the volume's low, your brain's probably getting frustrated. Like, why can't I get this? Why can't I receive this novelty stimulus? So, naturally, it's going to start to fire off different wave activity in order to seek that. So cool. Yeah, in order to make that happen. And you're exactly right that it's going to go through different waves. And the minute it produces even a little bit of what we're asking for, that's when the screen gets brighter, that's when the volume goes up. And it's flooded with that novelty stimulus. Basically telling it like, oh yeah, that was it. Keep going. So, the brain is just that little bit of reward and then it's like, it's learning. It's like, okay, let me do a little bit more of that because that's what you want me to do and then we're getting rewarded for it. That's exactly right. It's like learning a new skill. Yeah. So, for anyone who, I just even like really break it down because I've been doing this for over a year now with you guys. Yes. So, you put on this headset and you watch whatever you guys have tons of videos. What I also love is like, you're always adding new videos. Yeah. So, you can search categories. You're watching something and then essentially, you know, at some point the video will dim or it will, the volume will lower. And it's really frustrating because I'm actually trying to watch the podcast. Yeah. So, clearly my brain in the background is frustrated and doing its thing. It's like, okay, what can I do to get the reward that I want? And then it just goes back and forth and that's essentially how simple it is. That is literally how simple it is, right? Like we talked about, it feels really complex because it's the brain. But what it boils down to is how humans learn anyways, which is through reward stimulus. Right. Right. If you have a baby and you're teaching it how to walk, right? It's walking towards you. It falls over. You don't go, oh, buddy, your proprioception was off. Right. No way. You're like, yeah, keep going. Good job. Right. And the brain starts to auto correct, right? Because it's receiving novelty stimulus. We're doing the same thing. We're just giving it all of this reward and it's starting to go, okay, wait, when I do this, I get this, I want more of that. Let's increase that pattern. So I also want to go back to how you got involved, your vice president of Brain Code Centers. Yes. And your best friend is the founder. That's right. Yeah, you guys are business partners, best friends. It's a really cool dynamic. Also, you guys are just so cool and relatable. When you first reached out to me and we started talking, I felt in instant connection with you. It was like we were friends. Yeah. So it was nice to work with someone like that who's relatable, fun, and doesn't make anything like this scary. I mean, Rachel's the absolute best, she's my best friend. And you know, I, we've heard from people, you know, is it so hard to work with your best friend? Probably yes. And definitely, you know, we have our battles, but probably our personality types work really well in that we are definitely able to separate business and personal. Right. We'll have girls weekend, fire it up. It's so fun. And then we have really hard business conversations and go ham and go at it. And you know, we're able to separate the two. That's great. Yeah. So how did you guys even first learn about neurofeedback? Oh my gosh. So we both kind of have an origin story of, you know, how we got into it. And I feel honestly, I've always said, I believe that neurofeedback found me. I did not really find it. You know, kind of your passion and your calling, like no matter where you are, it'll find you. So I grew up in Washington and you know, was honestly probably a little bit of an underachiever growing up that I was always, you know, smart, but lack of drive. Right. That I was much more interested in social and you know, kind of doing whatever I wanted. And honestly, it was like a Christmas miracle that I got into college. I don't even know how that happened. My grade point average and whatever was not not fantastic. But once I got to college, you know, I kind of was like, OK, I'm going to get it together like any underachiever. And I didn't because I had no nothing in place in order to make that happen. And then when I was 19, I was home visiting my family and went to donate blood because you know, I was underachiever, but like still pretty good person. And I ended up passing out and the way in which I fell, I suffered a school fracture, traumatic brain injury. And honestly, that's where my life began. And to this day, if I could go back and change it, I absolutely would not. Kind of, you know, being in a situation where it's like, am I going to get through this, right? Whether that's with life or I was in a walker for a while after I got taken out of the ICU. Wow. And you know, you kind of wheel and deal at that point that it's a little bit like, Lord, if you, if you let me have this right, if I can heal, like I'm coming after life hard. And you know, just never left my side. And that, you know, kind of instilled a fire and a passion in me to be successful and to you. utilized the organ that kind of came through for me, which was my brain. And then even 10 years down the road, I still had some, I would say deficits that were happening, including pretty severe anxiety and very bad insomnia, which wasn't there before. Which was not there before. That's right. So were you making the connection, some things off in my brain? Absolutely. Yeah. I was fortunate that because I had a skull fracture, it was very obvious that I had a brain injury, versus a lot of people suffer brain injuries that it's never diagnosed. And so they have all of these other issues going on. A brain injury is kind of like an invisible injury. So people suffer in silence because it's like, well, you're just grumpy or you're just whatever. Stop being that way. And the prefrontal cortex has damage. So it's like, oh my gosh, but I was fortunate that because of the severity, it was diagnosed really early on. So I got a lot of help. And really, the natural side of medicine is what healed me versus traditional side was this might be as good as it's going to get. But Carolyn Nook, my mom was crunchy before it was cool to be crunchy. Love that. Oh, and she was like, we do not accept that. That is not the answer that we take. Thank you for the mums. And she went and found me a lot of natural forms of medicine that really healed me. And later on-- What a blessing. Oh my gosh, that for all of you who have crunchy moms at home, thank them. The gang member being crunchy. Seriously. But yeah, even 10 years down the road, these little things, neurofeedback was almost like the last piece of that puzzle that came in and healed my brain on that deep neurological level. And I met Rachel professionally through a different connection. And I was still in my master's program. She had already started doing neuro. And we came together and it was like, so you had been doing it for your brain injury. She was in the same field. And then you guys just connected over neurofeedback. So actually, she found it through a personal experience. And then I was going through my master's kind of going, what am I going to do after this? Was introduced to neurofeedback. Then did my own neurofeedback. And was like, this is my life. Like this is why I went through what I went through. Because now I get to treat people with brain injuries. Right. And so many other things. But yeah, it was kind of very serendipitous. Very serendipitous. I mean, there's so many stories like that. And it just really makes you believe in the universe. Oh. Everything's a lesson. Everything is there to help you and guide you. And also, I find really helps that when I just reframe it, this is here for me. Just assume everything is happening for you and not to you. Well, first of all, actually, let's just go into the company. How does it work? Like how do people work with you? Like do you see clients? Is it all done? You know, virtually. Oh my gosh. So we do have multiple in-person locations. So we have three locations in Colorado, kind of in the surrounding areas of Denver. And then we have an office in Tulsa and an office in Dallas. So if you are in one of those physical locations and you prefer to come in office and be seen, oh my gosh, you absolutely can. We have beautiful centers. Really during COVID, there was this overwhelming need for some kind of remote system. So sometimes when people hear virtual, they're like, how do we do this virtually? I mean, you don't. Like you have equipment. Neurofeedback is very science-heavy, very equipment-heavy. So you have equipment at home, but you're able to do it from anywhere. So there was this need and this calling. So we went on a very deep dive into remote neurofeedback systems and helped design the one that we're utilizing now, which is honestly fabulous. My whole family's in Washington. I honestly probably made them pilot it a little bit. I was like, mom, use this every day. And it's incredible. So truly, you can be anywhere in the world. I have clients in Dubai, in Canada, in Australia, doing neurofeedback with us because they can do it from anywhere. And then we check in via Zoom. We have information on the back end that the headset sends us. So we're able to any place, anybody, anywhere can do neurofeedback with us. And is everyone getting the-- Is it the EEG? The EEG? Yes. Is everyone getting the EEG first? That's right. So we start with a quantitative electron cephalogram. And that can be-- That's a person. That has-- So they have to do something in person first. I'm so sorry. Nope, they don't. Oh, they don't. They don't. You can do it in person. And some people actually will travel to go do the brain map. And if that's your dreaders, you definitely can. There really isn't a need for that. That you can do it from anywhere. We ship you equipment to sets. Oh, cool. Obviously, I was going to be in New York. You guys did mine. Yeah, we-- I mean, we were doing a whole partnership, and I was learning about it. But that's cool to know that anyone can do it. OK, so you ship them the headset. Ship them the headset. We help them put it on. So this is not DIY at home that we get on a Zoom with them, help them collect that. I have people in their 70s call and they're like, well, I'm not very techy. I'm like, my mom is not techy. And she can do this. Like, I promise you, you can do this. So we get on, help you collect that data, go over it with you. I'm really big on education. And I very much believe in people having a strong understanding of why their brain is doing what it's doing. It's like a visual form of grace to truly understand yourself neurologically better. It's like when we go do blood work. And we realize, man, I've been sleeping like crap that I feel bad. And then we find out we have something going on with our hormones. It's so validating. Like, that's what's going on. The brain is so illuminating in all of those things. So we do that brain map, but yeah, we can do it remotely. We can do it in person. You know what I will say, though? I find that so many people, when they go get the standard blood work, everything's fine. And it's so frustrating because you know that everything's not. And then sometimes, you know, the people who can afford it will go to functional medicine doctors and spend thousands of dollars. And even then, I find you get this extensive testing. But it's also, we're not really there yet, where we really know what to do all the time. A lot of times, it's great. It's not always there. But this is such a cool tool. Oh, yeah. I mean, for me, I can speak to my personal experience. It's been such a game changer. I noticed my worry and go down, my anxiety go down. And just I was sleeping better. I don't even know. I think we wrote down all the things that improved from a rumination. Ruminate. Rumination was my thing. I love to ruminate. Well, I used to love. I don't love it too anymore. And I just think it's like another factor to check that made me-- and you don't need a doctor for it, which is also incredible. And you're 100% right that I do have people come to us going, I've been told, which is so undervalidating, everything's good. You're good. Or take a Xanax. Or you know, kind of you hear that, like, well, just stop. Thank you. Yes. So helpful. I'll just-- Just don't worry. Just get it. Just go for a walk. I've solved. All right. Thank you. And that's so frustrating, right? That-- Yeah. And it's interesting because psychiatry psychology is the only field of medicine that we don't measure the organ that we're going to treat. Right? We kind of treat it totally separately. And we throw spaghetti against a wall with medication, which there's no shame in the medication game. I believe that you do what you have to do. And it can be life-saving. It really should be a short-term fix while you find the long-term solution. Neurofeedback for a lot of people can be that long-term solution, where we're actually changing the brain on that neurological level versus masking symptoms and going, OK, well, eventually, what if I want to have a baby? What if I-- you know, any of these other things, what if I want to get off medication? What if medication doesn't sit well with me? What am I left with? Probably exactly what you started with. Yep. And another thing I think is really cool is, I don't know, people come in. It's not necessarily for a specific ailment. Do you have some people that are just coming in? Maybe they want to optimize? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. We call it peak performance. That I absolutely have people who are kind of, let's take professional athletes, right? That kind of already-- hey, I'm at the top. I'm in the top 1% that my brain is fully functioning. I feel great. But how do I get that 1% better? How do I just kind of push it a little bit over the edge that if you have two athletes that are equal in structure and what they're doing, they're talent, all these things. OK, who has the edge? Well, what if one person can have a little bit better recovery time? What if they can be sleeping a little bit deeper? What if their focus is a little bit better? What if their recovery time from a concussion is a little bit shorter? That's the better athlete. And you know what's even more interesting about this that I like? Because is this considered biohacking? I mean, I know biohacking now is become kind of funny term. I'm for sure. Do we want to associate it? Right. I remember five years ago when I was really into peptides and biohacking at that point wasn't so mainstream. So it was perceived as positive. And now I feel like it's being perceived as negative. But perception is very subjective anyway. But even if it is a part of biohacking, it's the most natural thing because you're not actually putting something exogenous in your body. There's nothing actually impacting you. It's just like rewiring your brain. Yeah. And so you're 100% right. That on the one hand people are like, is this biohacking? I'm like, I mean, I would say that anything self-improvement and natural is biohacking. Right. So like for sure. But almost more so neurohacking. For some reason, as a culture, we focus very heavily neck down as we should. For some reason, we forget about the brain. That our brain is 100% our best asset. And if it is not firing on all cylinders and fully functioning, we're going to be lacking. And it's also nice. It's almost like if you've ever been to a psychic, and they're like, or get like a, you read your astrology or someone, when someone tells you about yourself, it's really, there's something that's really enjoyable and like satisfying about it. Yes. And then also when someone tells you, it almost just lets you like breathe a sigh of relief because you're like, oh, like that's why I feel spacey sometimes during the day. I remember, so when I, I'll share a little bit about my experience with you guys. I remember my theta was really high, right? So explain the brain waves to people. Absolutely. So all humans are capable of producing the same brain waves. Delta are like your deep, slow, restorative relaxation sleep waves. So if or when you're in the best part of sleep, the brain produces these super slow moving delta waves. Theta is kind of-- kind of adrifting into sleep way over. You're not fully asleep, but you're not fully awake. It's a very creative calming wave. Alpha is a receptor, so it kind of helps push the brain up into the fast, moves it down into the slow, too much or too little alpha, and we tend to feel very stuck. Beta should be clean, focused, motivational energy, first cup of coffee in the morning. High beta is fighter flight, anxiety, irritability, defense mechanisms, hypervigilance. And within a certain kind of standard deviation, all of these waves are beautiful, and we need them. Theta, having extra theta makes us very creative, gives us a beautiful sense of calm. Having too much theta, we turn creativity into distractability and anxiety. Beta should be very focused and motivational and get it done too much, and we have anxiety, irritability, defense mechanisms. So it really, we want some of these things, like a little bit extra here, a little bit extra there, as those things kind of snowball, because of different reasons, right? Trauma, anxiety, stress of life, they tend to get out of our control. I was gonna say, is there any direct correlation of like, this causes theta to be higher, this causes, I mean obviously beta is anxiety, or alpha or anything. Yeah, so, you know, our brains are kind of a culmination, right? What we're born with, so biology, what our parents gave us, and then also things that happen along the way, right? If we smoke a lot of weed, you know, we have excess alpha wave activity in the prefrontal cortex. We do not want that, right? That, you know, so I hear a lot of times, like, well, marijuana's natural, it's not harmful at all. I'm like, it's still mind-altering. It's still mind-altering, and also it causes slow alpha in the front, we don't want that, right? You can talk to somebody who's been smoking weed for 50 years, they're probably gonna come across a little bit slower. Oh, look at that. They've damaged their processing speed. Theta, I mean, doing yoga, especially if somebody, you know, maybe has a lot of fast wave activity, doing yoga can increase momentarily theta in the brain. We also see different patterns for, like, early developmental trauma tends to show in one specific pattern. Early adult PTSD style trauma tends to show in, you know, a different pattern. So the brain doesn't necessarily tell us when I look at the brain map, like, hey, this is from this one thing specifically, but it gives us indicators so I can ask questions that, you know, I'll come in and actually love the person who's like, I'm not gonna fill out any paperwork. I just want to see what you have to see. I'm like, test me all day. That sounds great. They want to see if you're right. Yeah, they want to see if I'm right. I'm like, okay, you know, like fire it up. And I'll ask questions like, hey, I see this pattern. Do you mind telling me about your new clear family going up? What was your family life like? You know, that if we don't have a lot of alpha wave activity in the brain, alpha wave activity gives us safety and security. And if we didn't develop it early on, that probably tells me that whatever was happening in your family unit, this doesn't mean you were necessarily abused. It could just mean that there wasn't a lot of safety and security for you to develop. It's so, so interesting. And I remember when I had high-fated, there was other things as well. But I did feel like I was less motivated than I used to be. And I wasn't really sure what was going on. Almost like where I would, I think you asked once if I disassociate, this is associate. And I was like, no. But then I realized, wait, I actually do. When I have all these tasks to be done, I would just stop and start organizing the kitchen. And I was like, I think it was calming me down. - I'm sure. - And so when I saw all the waves that were out of balance, which I'm sure everyone's are to some degree. And then we started it. And then to actually see the results physically on the paper of like, okay, how much has balanced out and to feel it, was just so satisfying. - Oh my gosh, doing before and after brain maps, it's kind of one of those things where, it's like if we're trying to lose weight or get fit or whatever that is, we take pictures, right? Because we live in our bodies. So we could lose 10 pounds and be looking awesome. And it's like, I look exactly the same. I haven't lost any weight in this sucks. And then we look at before and after pictures and it's like, okay, girl, you let me see you. You looking good, that's a brain map, right? It's like proof of change. That yes, we feel it. But also maybe what used to be a 10 is now a five, but we live in our brain. So that five is now our new 10. So actually seeing that change and going, oh my gosh, you're right, I am ruminating less. I am sleeping more deeply. I'm not dissociating as much. Okay. And I used to have this one device that would cha, it was only for alpha. So it was my first introduction. Alpha stem, was it? I think so. It was called violet. Okay. And it was, I didn't know much about it at that point. Like a functional medicine practitioner had recommended it and I really liked it. But it's not always about alpha. You know, that's the difference. That was like turning on alpha versus yours is rewarding the balance. I get that question from a lot of people who come in, kind of asking you about different products, right? Well, I have an alpha stem and I'm like, alpha stem is great. If you don't have a lot of alpha, right? If you do have a lot of alpha, that's actually bad. Yeah, you're putting a ton more alpha in that you might not need, right? Now alpha in general can be very calming, kind of sensory motor rhythm. So I understand why a standalone seems like a good idea. That's also why we do a brain map. You know, that there are a lot of, you know, kind of general neurofeedback systems where they're really generalized protocols. And, you know, I'm not ever going to dog on, you know, a different product. But the reason why we do a brain map is so that there's no guesswork, you know, not just wondering if your pattern of anxiety is the one that I'm treating as anxiety can come from 50 different patterns in the brain. Yes. I would rather know exactly what's going on and treat it directly. That, you know, it's kind of like generalized supplements that these supplements are good for everybody. Are we just PNML? Like, am I just spending $50 a month for nothing? I'd rather do some blood work and go, okay, here's probably what my body actually needs right now so that I can be more targeted. Preaching to the choir. I never like promoting supplements. The only ones I've ever really, like, okay, magnesium can help everyone comment night. But I'm never going to be like, oh my god, this vitamin B gives me so much energy, like everyone should be taking it, you know? Like, it doesn't need that. Exactly. Is there any specific, what do you see the most improvement on for people? Like, who is the ideal client? Or is it like really anyone? Everybody is a great candidate to improve their brain health, right? And I believe that health is very much a series of puzzle pieces. We kind of want it to be a silver bullet. So sometimes people come to us and they're like, this is the one thing that is going to solve all the things. And then I look at the brain map and maybe they have a pattern for, you know, some hormonal issues going on. I'm like, hey, I really would recommend going and doing a hormone panel and some blood work with a functional med, right? Let's look at what's going on. Rather than, you know, let's just start neurofeedback and, you know, see, if we, if we have a really underactive thyroid, neurofeedback's not going to touch that, right? But for a lot of people, neurofeedback might be the last piece of that puzzle where it's like, hey, I have done all the things. And I'm still struggling with X, Y, Z. So I believe that everybody, you know, can improve their brain health and get that 1% better every day. There are definitely people who are probably a better candidate right now, right? If you are struggling with anxiety, depression, ADD, trauma, PTSD, a brain injury, insomnia, a stroke, all of those things very much fall into our wheelhouse. And I feel extremely confident about people having significant reduction in symptomology. So brain code centers, I'm not looking for a 10% change. I'm looking for life transformation change for people. That's so cool. And how fast do people tend to see changes? Everybody's different in that. I would say that sometimes if we have a ton of fast way of activity, beta, high beta on the singular, it is like a shaken can of soda. And if we just pop the top a little bit, it lets out a lot of steam. And I'll have people in four sessions being like, oh my gosh, I've never felt more mental clarity. I feel so good. And then other people, you know, it might take a little bit longer, four to six weeks. It's not that change is not happening before that. It's kind of like going to the gym, right? That when people are like, can I just try it for a week? I'm like, well, I went to the gym yesterday and I'm not shredded, so the gym must not work. Right. No, the gym does work, right? It's just going to take a little bit longer for us to see the fruits of that labor. What's so funny is I'm maybe just a-- I've been in the health space for about two decades now, pharmacy school, and then just being in all of this work, four to six weeks, that would have been my short end. Right. That's so fast. I would have thought it might be three to six months as a long time. Four to six weeks is remarkable. What's the biggest transformation you've seen? Do you have any clients where you're just like, oh my gosh. So now I do all of our business development, our marketing, our sales, but for a long time, I treated clients myself. And I could give you thousands of stories. I mean, I had a woman come in to see me who had really severe travel anxiety. So a lot of times two people come in and it's, yes, generalized anxiety, it will be very specific like a phobia. And she could not drive, she could not fly. It was awful. It was very much inhibiting her life. And 40 sessions of neurofeedback, she did in person, and she flew to China. And literally texted me when she was there and was like, I feel like I've started a new life. Wow. So incredible. So we obviously celebrated over that. I treated for a long time every niche population of kids who had been adopted. And even when, yes, and that's so powerful, because you'll have these kids who maybe even were adopted from birth, right? That they got picked up from the hospital and I have parents going, they should have literally no problem. So I'm like, now we're talking about, you know, inter-yudorot trauma. There's a lot of things that happen, right? And so they're showing signs of reactive attachment disorder and even some learning issues. And having a kid going from being kind of the trouble kid, right? That they're a little bit labeled and difficult and all these things to being able to show love and affection and sit in class and kind of act in a way that feels very good for them and very regulated, like having their nervous system be regulated is incredible. That I would have teachers coming to parents going, "Did you start medicating so and so?" And they were like, "No, we're doing neurofeedback." And like how impactful for a teacher to hear that, that the answer is not always medication. Maybe sometimes it is, but especially for your little kid, putting something synthetic into their brain, let's try something natural. - Wow. That was gonna be my next question was kids. So how young can they start? And how many kids do you guys work with? - I would say probably 30, 40% of our practice is under the age of 18. - Okay. - Usually as young as five. And the reason why treating any younger than five, they have a hard time sitting still for the brain map, they have a hard time sitting still for sessions. If they're ripping electrodes off while they're training, so it's kind of a joke that it has to be like to the age of bribery, right? If I can't bribe them, they're like, "Screw you." I need it to be at least like, "I'll give you anything," right? "I'll give you anything to do it." But also it's really easy and it's really passive, right? They're watching a show. A little extra screen time rarely do kids give me pushback. I'm like, "Do you wanna watch a little YouTube?" - Exactly. - Like, "Yeah, I do, thanks." So I see kids, their brains are so amazingly neuroplastic and willing to change. You know, they have five years of ingrained patterns versus 40 years of ingrained patterns. Now that doesn't mean 40 is any harder to train. Sometimes kids catch on a little bit faster. It's so incredible to see that change. - That's really interesting. I feel like something that I hope more parents learn about because it's just an alternative. I mean, again, everyone's on their own journey with medication, but I'm sure there are so many parents who have not tried neurofeedback before giving ADHD medication. Is there actual statistically significant data or there are studies showing that it can be a treatment for ADHD or anxiety or any of these things? - Yes, actually ADHD, ADD is the most researched area of neurofeedback. - Wow. - Actually, there's a research page on our website, braincodecenters.com, that has a ton of peer-reviewed articles that people can go on and read. If you're a researcher like me, you're like, "Show me the data." Obviously, too, you know, the amount of before and after brain maps that we have, neurofeedback actually started in the 1940s, so I do get questions, you know, is this new? I've never heard of it. It is not new. This is a tried and true FDA-approved method. However, I would say in the last 30 to 40 years, the efficacy has gone up significantly because of the amount of research that we have now. And then, what about EMFs? Is there any other EMFs? Like, I mean, yes, in that you're wearing, you know, a Bluetooth device, right? It's so minimal that I always ask people 'cause I always get that question. I'm like, "Do you have a cell phone that you use on a regular basis?" Well, yeah, I'm like, far less than that. Let me look. - Yeah. - Far less. So it's so minimal, but absolutely. Yeah, that it's technology. It's a Bluetooth device. There is going to be a little bit. I would say in the span of what we utilize on a day-to-day basis with our headphones, it's very, very, very minimal. - This is my exact definition of balance because I always have this issue with balance when people say it was clean eating. Obviously, that's one of my biggest passions. - Yes. - And everyone's like, "Everything in balance, 80/20." And I'm like, "You should not be having red, dye, 40 or natural flavors in balance." Like, do you want a little poison in balance? Should you smoke a little cigarette in balance? But this is something where I mean, I really am pretty thoughtful about EMFs. I not used a Bluetooth headphone in like four or five years. I have EMF wire headphones. I usually talk on speakerphone. We shut off our Wi-Fi at night. - Absolutely. - But am I going to put on this headset for 20 minutes and do this? Yes, because you weigh the risk versus reward. - That's right. - That's right. That's actually in pharmacy school. That's a whole term. It's like, "Risk versus reward," when you're talking about medication. Could be because some of the side effects are so intense that sometimes it's like, "It might not be worth it," but sometimes it is. So for this, it's like, yes, that's going to be my EMF exposure because the reward is so good. - I completely agree with you. And it's not even 80/20, it's maybe like 95/5. - Yeah. - You know, the benefit outweighs that buy so much, but absolutely, I get it. And some people are honestly more sensitive than other people, right? I get very, very few people who are sensitive to our headset. If you are sensitive to our headset, I actually have another headset that they can try. That's a full cap. It works a little bit different. It plugs in. So there are so, yeah, alternative options. But I would say most people don't need it. They're not highly sensitive. And it's for such a short amount of time. And not even in a day, a short amount of time, but in the span of you're only doing it for six months, maybe nine months to a year, depending on the situation, that the benefit's going to outwraith the risk significantly. - Yeah, agree. I had to use Gary's headphones one day because I like, forgot mine. I never used Bluetooth and I needed it for something. And I got so dizzy and like a little nauseous. And then I hadn't even heard that was a thing. And then I just like ended up looking it up because it was like, that's the only thing I did differently. So brain code center does not make me have any symptoms like that, definitely not. - I have this kind of mentality that everybody has like a toxic load cup in their body. This is not scientific. This is just like Angie's thought. And it's like, if we clean out our cups so well that when we put something in, right, when you have a detoxed body and then you add something, I'll go sleep in a hotel and they're not using natural detergent. And I'll have a rash on my body and I'm like, what's going on? - That's yes. - But it's because I've used natural products for so long that now my body wears. Before, I probably wouldn't have had an issue, but I think honestly because my body was kind of sick all the time. So it was like, well. - And all your reaction mechanisms are off. Your sensors, you're not actually having the, I'm the same way. Bragrances never used to bother me, whereas now they do. That's right. But also, I do appreciate that my body is able to give me those signals now that it actually knows when something does not sit right versus when you kind of feel bad all the time, you don't realize 'cause that's your baseline. - Exactly. And you just said something about people using it six months and nine months. So what about those of us who want this as maintenance? So are there people who say, is it good to use it ongoing? 'Cause I actually took like a three month break because I had a really busy summer and I wasn't traveling and whatever. And now I'm like, okay, I want to get back into it. But yeah, what are your thoughts on maintenance? - 100%. So I think that everyone's different in kind of their goals, right? I believe that my brain is a high powered vehicle, right? And I drive it hard and I drive it fast and I ask a lot of it. And also I know because of that, it requires more maintenance, right? That if I'm puttering along and I only take my car out of the garage like once a week, it probably doesn't need as much maintenance. That's not how I roll. So I prefer to do neurofeedback relatively regularly because I believe in long term brain health and that plasticity. Now however, I'm not doing neurofeedback for kind of the goals of what it used to be, right? Where like insomnia and anxiety, those things are solved. Like those things are committed to permanency in my brain and we're good. I'm more just doing it as general brain health. That all of these degenerative issues, Alzheimer's dementia, I believe that a component of that is that we stop increasing plasticity as we get older. We stop learning things. We stop doing anything novelty. You know, I read all the time. Well, you know how to read. Are you learning to read in Spanish and you don't speak Spanish? Otherwise, no, you're not actually increasing plasticity. So we're just learning. Like if you're constantly learning. I feel like I'm constantly learning and I actually never realize what a hobby it is to me. Yes. What do I like researching? Like anything wellness or holistic food. So I think like yes, if your brain is learning and this could be a form of that. This is absolutely a form of that. And it's so targeted and condensed and easy that a lot of people are like, I just want to do, I want to do neurofeedback regularly. That could mean once a week. That could mean twice a month. That could mean once a month. Yep. That we do offer those long term maintenance programs. And some people go, I did it for six months. My anxiety is gone. I'm sleeping amazing. I feel the relief of depression. I don't necessarily need to keep doing it. Great. You all know that. Keep it on hand. If at some point something comes up, neurofeedback doesn't make us bullet proof. That life's going to happen. Right. If we need to bring it back out, we can. That's cool. Actually didn't know that. I was thinking it was one of those things. You have to go to the gym all the time to keep the results. And it's not like that. Wow. OK. I use a lot of gym analogies because I'm a gym person. Yes. But no, it's not. I know. If you're not watching this, you're super fit. It's-- I was running the park this morning. And also-- Nice. Let me tell you something though. I was getting smoked by every single person in New York City. Yeah. You were running. The real man smoking me on this running path. I was like, pick up your pace, Angie. No, it's a beautiful city. The park is beautiful. I loved running it because it kind of brings people together in that fitness way. Like we're all here camaraderie. Yeah. Except for everyone was smoking me. So there's that. But absolutely. Yeah. It's not necessarily if you don't do it always, it will not serve you. It's not medication. It doesn't have a shelf life in the brain or in the body. It's teaching the brain to do it on its own. Right. It's almost like for anyone listening, it was like, just if there's something feeling off and you've exhausted other things, or you're just curious, I think it's cool. Again, the only negative being some EMF exposure, but I'm pretty sure 99.99% of everyone listening has way more EMF exposure everywhere else. Everywhere else. Yes. Like truly, ever late. Did you just call me on your iPhone that you have hooked up to your Bluetooth headphones? Is your laptop on your lap? That's my biggest thing. Don't put your laptop on your lap. Is your laptop sitting on your lap around all of your organs? Yes. Exactly. But now, obviously, to each person, their comfort level, what that looks like. Also, if you're near a center, those, everything of interactual centers is hooked up. So it depends on what feels best for you, but 99.999. 99% of people are totally fine. - Yes. - Yeah. It's really cool. - Yeah. - What do you see, like, what's the new research coming? Or, what do you got? Is there anything new happening that you're learning about it? Or, like, advances? - Oh my gosh, even in, you know, the 15 years that I've been in neurofeedback, there are always different advances. And different, you know, kind of cool new technology coming out. I'm probably a little bit old school, right? Like, I like some old school equipment. Now, our remote program is so cutting edge and so incredible. But the protocols, you know, on the back end, that there's always new, Loretta protocols that we can run and Z score and region of interest. - What does it mean? What is Loretta and Z score? - Yeah, so it's basically a type of, like, region training in the brain. So making different regions of the brain work together, I could get very nerdy on the back end. It's different protocols. - So different protocol. - The back end protocol. - Back end protocols. - Okay. - Everything that we're doing is 100% tailored and individualized to that person. So there are no one-size-fit-all plug and play protocols when it comes to brain code centers. That definitely does exist in neurofeedback. That is not how we do neurofeedback. And I believe that, you know, I mean, incredible, right, that we have all of these different ways of training now. I also believe that, you know, somebody could come in and I could run the oldest protocols of all time specific to their brain and I will change their life. Like, I very much believe that. So, you know, it's kind of like new shiny technology isn't always better. Sometimes it is. - Right, yeah. - That's like, I mean, it's like in anything. In surgeries and medicine, like, you know, there's some people who prefer really old school. Some people who like the new age technology. - Yeah, honestly, a lot of the referrals we get, right? We get referrals from primary care physicians, from neurologists. And then somebody will come in and be like, my doctor told me this isn't real, this is nothing. I'm like, I don't feel like it's my job to convince your doctor of what that is. Also, you know, how many, like medicines has your doctor recommended for you, you know, like an antibiotic when you had a viral infection. Like, let's also talk about the fact that medicine is a little bit more on the reactive side than the proactive side. I'm here for the proactive. - That really just frustrates me when any doctor does that. I think that everyone can have their own opinions, but be open-minded and do your research. And if you are a doctor talking to a patient, don't just say, no, that's like, that's nothing. That's not real science. - Yeah. - It's like, ego is getting in the way. If you really believe that, tell the patient the actual explanation to it. And then if you are the patient and you want to really discuss this with your doctor, bring in the research, right? - 100%. - Look at primary literature. Look at Chatchy BT, like semi-primary literature, for neurofeedback, and then you can bring in into your doctor and show them. - Absolutely. - You can't argue that. - It'd be hard to. - Yeah. - The body of research that we have, it would be hard to argue with, as well as, anybody can pop on our Instagram @RainCodeCenters, look at the before and after brain maps. You don't have to know anything about neurofeedback or brain waves or anything. If you look at the comparisons of before and after, the physiological change is absolutely undeniable. Now, as is the experience that people are having in their bodies, in their brains, in their regulation. But if you're just looking at straight before and after and I would go, "Which brain do you want?" Which one looks better? On fire or regulated, you'd be like, that one. - Right. - Like 10 out of 10 times, someone is gonna pick the more regulated brain. Even if you don't know anything, you can see the change that's happening. - Yeah, I think for me, I've always, I think since pharmacy school, I became more of, like let me see the research, kind of shaped me in that way. And I love both sides of it. I'm the most spiritual person, but I also love to see the data. And I think those two together, even, even if it makes you trust it more, it will work more. It's like the placebo, no-cebo effect. - 100%. - Yeah, so you can see it. - I have people ask me, is this kind of woohoo? - I'm not woohoo. I'm the least woohoo ever. So for sure, if for somebody who maybe has only ever heard of medication and very much is really black and white, it might feel a little woohoo. And then we start talking about operant conditioning. But that's literally the way that the human brain learns. - Yeah. - That is not woohoo. Also, it's very science, it's very technology-based. So I believe that when people kind of come into it, that's why we do free consultation. So it's never gonna cost someone anything to learn about what neurofibec is, to learn about what their options are. That's just kind of coming with a blank slate, open-minded, and let's explore. - So how does it all work? Someone goes on your website, signs up. Let's tell people how to actually experience this. - Absolutely, yep. So they can pop on the website. They can go to our Instagram, DMs, brain code centers. - Brain code centers, yeah. - Either braincodecentres.com or @braincodecentres. Rachel runs our Instagram because she's the best person ever. Like I could never, it would take me years to do a real, like, can't even, so show respond, and we'll get you set up with consultation, or if you pop on the website, you can just schedule it right there. - Okay. - It's gonna be 30 minutes. It's literally going to be with Rachel or myself. We do 100% of the consultations, not because we have the time to do that, but because it's educating is our passion, that's such a passion project for us. So we're gonna sit down and people come in with just the most incredible stories of brain injuries, of trauma, of heartbreak, of all these things, of why now their brain is working, the way that it's working, and being able to offer them something that feels very hopeful and very different, and very natural, is the most rewarding part of what I do. - That's really, really great. So then they do a consult, and then you set them up, like you'll send them the headset, they wanna do it at home, or they're near a location. - Yep, so we'll talk about kind of what the options are. Hey, I'm in New York City. I do not have the ability to come in office. No problem. I'm shipping you the brain mapping equipment. I'm shipping you your headset. Let's get on a Zoom and collect that data. Do the map review, and then they start sessions. And I would say with remote, most people do between like six and nine months. Usually we start with six, right? Everyone's different, you know? But it kind of gives us a little bit of a timeframe, like, "Hey, this is how much we're gonna do. I definitely have people ask me, "Well, can I just do it for three months?" Again, could you be feeling really great after three months? Absolutely. Have those patterns been committed to permanency? No. So if you stop after, you know, you feel really good, could you backslide? Yeah. And that to me does not feel like a story of redemption. So I really encourage people like, "Hey, this is why we do the type of programs that we do "because we want you to have the best long-term results "that you can get." - So the six and nine months is what your studies or your data shows really leaves that, it's the neuroplasticity or the, okay, the, the, the, the, literally committing things to permanency. Yeah, that's not a brain code thing. This is research-based. It's so cool. Okay, six and nine months. Yeah. Great. And then you guys, you have, who was on the back end or are you guys the ones on the back and adjusting based on like? We have a whole team. A whole, a whole protocol team, a treatment team. So we have a bunch of different clinicians. So you're gonna have an individualized clinician to you that you're gonna see, you know, once a week. So all of your sessions are totally at your leisure, right? You can do them at 11 o'clock at night. It's six in the morning. I do mine in the tub, which I'm not recommending because obviously you don't want it to get in the water, but it's my relaxation time. And then I put my phone on my stand and I watch my video. And it's truly enjoyable. I look, I'm here for habit stacking. Right. I think people who are like, I do my red light therapy and I have my headset on. By all means, I'm already gonna be, I'm a tub person. Like, I'm a tub person, magnesium solid, so I'm good to go. I'm good to go. I'm not bath people. I'm like, put me in a bath all day long. Are you a Pisces or no cancer? Oh, I'm like, I don't know if it's my water sign, but I'm a Pisces and I love baths. I absolutely am a bath person. I've never done it in the bath, but maybe now. Yeah. That's absolutely amazing. Nice. Yeah, you can do it from anywhere and then one time a week, you get on a call with your clinician 'cause we wanna give you the data on the back end. Here's what the numbers are showing. Here's what your brain's doing. And also we need your qualitative feedback. Yeah. Here's your own feeling. Here's everything that's going on in that way as well. Great. And then so you've got that every week you check in and then you adjust based on whatever, whatever's going on and how the results are doing. Yes. And then I think you should also explain the reward rate because I remember you guys telling me, I always thought it was low, but that's where it should be. Right? No, that's a great question. It's kind of thresholds, right? That it's not, you know, like, hey, the goal is to do 100 burpees. Let's do them today. Let's start with one. And when your brain has the capability of reaching that threshold, okay, let's set it a little bit higher or a little bit lower, depending on, you know, kind of what our goals are for your brain. So again, that's why everything is individualized, but that's what we're putting in on the back end. We're giving your brain different goals of which to be able to reach with producing that wave activity. And as your brain reaches those thresholds, okay, now we're increasing, now we're decreasing, giving your brain the ability to now reach more reward, to get more stimulus and increase that plasticity all the time. So truly is that kind of building of those pathways, building muscle, if you will. And what is it, 40 to 60%? What is it percentage usually that you want to be in? Generally, yep, 40 to 60. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, so I will, my mom will send me pictures and she's like, I can never get 100% of my mom. You're not supposed to. I'm like, mom, if you're getting 100% every time, like that's not really the goal. Right. So we're not growing here. But also, you know, kind of type A personalities are like, why can't I win? And I win neurofeedback. I'm like, you are winning neurofeedback. It's just the goal is not like perfect every time. Yeah, that in itself is a lesson too. That's just the life lesson, right? Exactly. Neurofeedback is a life lesson. It can't be perfect every time. That's not the goal. That's not how we learn. 100%. Yeah. So how does neurofeedback compare to something like TMS? Yes. I get this question all the time. TMS is transcranial magnetic stimulation. So it's actually putting STEM into the brain. Now, do I believe that TMS is an incredible form of treatment? Absolutely. Sometimes I'll get questions of, you know, does this treat everything that neurofeedback does? Is this, you know, the same? Absolutely not. We are not putting any stimulus into the brain. So neurofeedback is not shock anything. Nothing's going in. I have seen more research of TMS for something like medication resistant depression versus, you know, neurofeedback not putting any stem in to me feels a lot more natural and maybe a better start versus kind of going in really hard with stem into the brain. So obviously a gentler approach for sure. A gentler approach, a less invasive approach. But I have seen some really promising research for TMS. Okay. So you and Rachel, you guys, you're speaking, you're educating, what else do you guys do and where can people learn more about this? Absolutely. So yes, we run brain code centers. That is our baby. That is what we do 24/7. And also public speaking, I actually found out a couple of years ago when we started speaking that it is the number one fear in the world. People would, I was like in the world public speaking. Fortunately, so I actually grew up, I have a degree in music and sang classical opera. In a different life, that is not, I don't even know who that person was. But once you have sang in public speaking in public, somehow is, it's nothing. I'm like, what's the worst thing that happens? I pass out, I die. Like, nothing compared to what if you're pitchy, you know, when you're singing. So we love speaking. And really that is just a bigger platform for us to spread the word about brain health about mental wellness. So we love touring the country. We speak it a lot of women's events and sales conferences. We're talking about really neurological like tips and tricks of how to increase plasticity at home. So it is not like everybody should do neurofeedback. Everybody should do neurofeedback. But it's about how do I make my brain that 1% better every day through these kind of little changes and little hacks that really are going to have huge neurological impact and change? But the way that people can learn more about us pop on our website. Honestly, following us on Instagram is a great way. We give away a lot of kind of neurological information and a lot of tips and tricks of things that people can be doing. We talk a lot about, you know, the foods that you eat and how those have impact. You talked about red dye earlier. You're right. That is not something in moderation. Look at your labels because that has huge implications to your brain health. So all of those things are interconnected. The brain, the body, your gut and your brain are so interwoven that we love to meet with people and partner with people like you who have, you know, kind of that wellness side, we've got the neuroside. Right. And I was going to be my last question, but now another one sparked and I'm going to roll with it. So I think I know the answer to this. But is there one specific thing that you really see partnered with neurofeedback that really helps? I know I'm obviously just living a healthy life and dye is going to regulate your body in general. But is it like, oh, if you're really getting regular sleep hours or if you're exercising, anything like that? I mean, everything is important. Everything. Everything is important. Food is important. Sleep is probably my number one. Okay. Like my number one life hack in the world is sleep. Sleep is compounding interest, not one large deposit. So when I meet people who are like, don't worry, I catch up on the weekends. No, you don't. That your brain needs sleep every single night and good and consistent. And consistent. Okay. I used to think that too. Yeah. The consistency is actually what helps you. So now I mean, I really, it's like between 10 and 10. 45 and I'm usually up by 630 and it's consistent on the weekends and it's really, it really helps regulate. Oh my gosh. I'm an actual psychopath. All of my friends know that when I go to bed at 8 p.m. every night, like just 100 years old. 8 p.m. Oh, yeah. I wish I can't get tired till like 930. Oh, I'm like winded. I'm drinking my sleepy tea at 7 p.m. on an actual psychopath and you're actually sleeping at 8. I would say I'm falling asleep around 830, but I am still. I'm like, I'm not even a question. I'm like, let's meet for dinner at 7. I'm like, do you mean 230? Where you confused? Are you do you mean 4 at the latest? So I can be home by 6. No shot. Don't catch Angie out. Like tonight if you're like, where's Angie? She's in bed. That's where she is. But honestly, I believe that, especially because I had insomnia for a really long time. Sleep is, I will hold on to that tighter than anything. I will baby that. I will regulate that every single second. So for people who are not watching their sleep and don't understand circadian rhythm, get into that. That's going to be your biggest longevity hack. Yes. For anyone listening, just to wrap this up, you can never just do one thing. Like you're all, yes, one thing might drastically help. Eating clean is drastically going to improve your health. Not even question. It will never get to its full potential if you're not being all well rounded with everything. So sleep is the most important. Eating clean is the most important. And then all these other things will just work better. It's not even a question. That's what we talk about holistic health, right? Exactly. It can't be neck down. It can't be just neck up. We really do have to focus on all of these things. Now, can we do them all perfect? No. But we can get it within a certain realm that we're really firing very optimally. 90% of the time. Exactly. This has been so great. I could talk to you for every-- I'm sorry. This could be a series. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for coming on. Yes. That episode's a motivated every other Tuesday, and don't forget to follow the podcast so you don't miss any of the action. And I'd love to hear from you. So leave a rating and review, and follow along on social for all the behind the scenes and more wellness content at MonevainerChuck.