S3 | Session 9: Resetting the TEMPO & Two Big Lies

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love podcast. I'm your host, Julie Manano. I'm a license marriage and family therapist and author of the book Secure Love, Creative Relationship, that lasts a lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So think of a time that you caught your partner with holding the truth. Just raise your hand if you've ever felt that awful, just twisted feeling in your gut, knowing something is wrong, pressing for the truth, and just getting the response that you're overreacting, and then finally, just finally find the evidence that you were right the whole time. So if you've been there, you know that the actual lie is only half the bat. The other half is the agonizing feeling of thinking that you're just going crazy. So today, that's exactly where we find Rachel and Mike. We're going to tackle one of the most difficult hurdles in any relationship, which is broken trust. So recently, Rachel's intuition flared up over a situation at work, and she pressed Mike for the truth, and he withheld that from her. So for Rachel, this wasn't just a miscommunication. It was a quote-unquote paper cut on top of a massive, unhealed wound from a year ago, when Mike hid a really big financial decision from her. So in this episode, you're going to hear my specific clinical techniques for mapping out this unsafe negative cycle. And we'll go back to this tempo method that we learned earlier in this season, and I'm going to just guide them step-by-step through the exact anatomy of this lie. We're going to discover that Mike isn't just this malicious random deceiver. He was in this moment a terrified, on an emotional level, scared of the repercussions of losing her. And so he uses omission as the ultimate escape hatch when his fears of failing her become too unbearable. And he's stuck in a conflict that he has never learned how to resolve emotionally within himself, lying for many people when they don't know how to do their emotions, can seem like a safe response in the moment. Of course, it doesn't ever usually work out so well. So as Mike says in this session, "If I can't avoid the discomfort, then lying can be my last resort." But the most powerful moment today comes when Mike finally takes accountability. Then Rachel is hit with a flood of anger. And on top of that relief, as she realizes, "I wasn't crazy, and I shouldn't have doubted myself." But before we jump into today's session, let's start with a question from one of our listeners. So Laura says, "Hi, Julie. Thank you so much for your work on the podcast. I really find it helpful to see the dynamics of attachment, play out in real couples instead of just learning about it on an abstract level." After listening to the episode so far, I'm curious about something that I've noticed in my own relationship. I've had a hard time pinning down the attachment styles for myself and my husband. Normally, the anxious, avoidant dynamic seems to be described as somewhat clear cut. But I can't help but see elements of both in each of us. For example, when I'm triggered, I have definitely responded in an anxious way, like Rachel, that I can also see myself in Mike with intellectualizing and downplaying when it's my husband who is upset. Same seems to be true for him. He's very much defensive and avoidant when it's me who has the problem, but he can become the pursuer when he's triggered. Is this expected to some degree in that there's nuance of gender, context, history, but that we still mostly lean to one type or another? Or is it more of an indicator of a different attachment style altogether like disorganized? Thanks for all you do, Laura. Well, thank you, Laura, that's a wonderful question. You're correct, not everybody fits perfectly into a box. I would say the vast majority of the couples that I work with do have pretty clear cut patterns, but it sounds like you have a situation where the context can cause you guys to shift into different roles. That's not uncommon. It's especially common when we compare a couple's emotional cycle, how do they reach each other for emotional care and comfort and support versus their sexual cycle, which is how they try to reach each other sexually. And a lot of times the sexual pursuer in the relationship will be the emotional withdrawal and vice versa. So it sounds like in your relationship something similar to that is happening when concerns are brought up. Again, it's not uncommon. What I tell people is don't get hung up on the labels. The labels are great if they help you get clarity and organize yourself and organize your relationship in a way that makes sense and helps you grow. But to use attachment theory, we don't have to have it. We don't have to have the labels of styles. We're just looking at how people are responding to their own emotional pain in moments of disconnection when their attachment system gets activated. What you're telling me from your question is that the symptoms in your relationship are intellectualizing, downplaying. You sometimes respond in an anxious way. So what I do is I just work with the symptoms as they show up in front of me. I know that someone with an avoidant attachment style is far more likely to be doing intellectualization in a relationship, but I still work with the intellectualization no matter who's showing it. I'm going to work with it in the same way, which is what happens that your body, instead of going in and tapping into your own emotions and trying to do the situation with your partner from a place of more depth and vulnerability, what happens that your body is so pulled into intellectualizing as a way to stay safe. And how can we unwind that and learn new responses to that attachment distress? So I hope that was a helpful answer. Thank you for your question. All right, well, let's dive into the session. You're doing pretty good. So what is pretty good? Let's hear the success. So I think-- I mean, yesterday was a good day for both of us professionally. So we got a big project approved. What do we have been working on for a very long time? It was a couple of years in the making. Wow. Well, I bet that feels really good. It does. It does. So it does. But yeah, with that comes with-- there's still a lot of challenges ahead. Others that just kind of that piece of it. And I think there's-- I kind of-- and Julie, I don't know if you have a particular-- anything in mind for this session, but there is something that are a topic that I would like to go through with you. Sure. Yeah. I will follow your lead on that. I do want to do something before we get there, if that's OK. OK. So you're OK pausing that. OK. And before I jump in, Rachel, do you have anything that you would like to say? I don't think so. I mean, I think when we get to this other topic, it'll-- that's probably where we'll get into some stuff for me. But I mean, I think after our last session, things felt pretty good. We had a discussion about this other topic last night, and we both utilized new skills that felt different. And-- great. So-- but I'm noticing the goodness that we felt really good until-- pacing another challenging topic. And so just navigating that, not that it's an emotional roller coaster, but you definitely go from hope to, oh dang, how much hope do I hold on to? So I'm just kind of wrestling with some of that this morning, I think. So it went well, at least at first. And then you bumped up against your limitations and went into that place where I'm playing around with renaming. And you guys can give me some feedback on that. Negative cycle to unsafe cycle. I think it's more descriptive, because the emotions that we're dealing with in these cycles are negative. They're pain. And so it's just how we're doing. Are we doing that pain? Are we doing that quote unquote negativity safely or not safely? So it sounds like you found yourselves going back into that unsafe territory and didn't know how to reestablish the safety. I think I don't know that it-- I didn't-- messes-- Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm kind of all over the place. Because it was different last night when we faced the topic, right? And so there's almost a discomfort around it being different, even though the different is improvement. And I would say-- yeah, I would even say that the different is-- For me at least it's more the conversation is more comfortable. Right. It was. Even though it is an uncomfortable conversation, it's more comfortable. Okay. Let's pause that so we give it the time it deserves. Yeah. And before we go there, let me, I just want to check out how this is kind of an assessment of how well you guys know your cycle. So I'm going to ask you some questions and there's no right or wrong. It's just me trying to figure out where we are so I can make sure that we do the work that we need to do. So I'll start with you Rachel. You know, since you know this tempo scaffolding, then I'm going to use that. So I want to know if you understand what in, I know the answer is going to be yes, at least on this one, what triggers you? Like what might Mike say or do that is going to take your nervous system to unsafe. And in this can be just, you know, a theme or just one time. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I can nail it down exactly. It's typically around family dynamics with holding impromptu. Okay. So let's say he says something that about the family that you just don't, doesn't hit you right. You just don't like. Okay. And so then we're going, the reason that you don't like it, the reason that it doesn't feel good for you is because there will be an unmet attachment need in that, right? And that's kind of the meaning that your nervous system makes in this moment. So can you put words to what unmet attachment needs can happen in these messages that you don't like? Is this like the fear and abandonment and rejection? No, I appreciate what are the names of a ban or met needs that you're like, what are the options? I guess. Yeah. So it would be like, you know, anything that you need to feel safe and close in the relationship, it's going to be the opposite of that. So it would be like, I don't feel understood. I don't feel shown up for. I don't feel cared for. I don't feel heard. I don't feel understood. I don't feel valuable. I don't feel like I'm being successful in your eyes. I feel like you're seeing me as a, you know, I don't, well, the opposite of that would be I feel you're seeing me as a failure. So, you know, that's kind of the most common list. So that, notice how that isn't a feeling, that is a message and we'll get to the feeling in a minute. But I need to know if you can help me understand, you know, put words to it. And again, you're not supposed to know how, that's how I'm going to know where to go with this. Okay. Yeah. I mean, all of those seen, heard, valued, respected, honored. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to just stick with unheard, unseen and uncare, did you just out, not, not valued. It was a big one to not feeling considered. Okay. So if I'm going to just condense this, it, the broad categories are, I feel unseen, I feel unheard, I feel, and devalued, or unvalued, I wouldn't say devalued, don't feel valuable. And I don't feel shown up for. And I think that's the biggest one is I just don't feel shown up for and the way that I'm needing. Right. Okay. And again, these are attachment needs because they are what people need to feel safe and close. And this isn't just true for romantic relationships. This is true for all relationships. I mean, even if you're in a work relationship, in your communicating with someone, trying to figure out a problem with them, if you're not feeling understood, if you're not feeling kind of validated for at least, you know, where you're coming from or seen or valuable to them, you're not going to feel the safe with them. Period. Right. Now, you might not need to feel close with that person. It is different in our love relationships. We have more needs. The stakes are higher if those needs don't get met. We don't really need to be so emotionally validated by our coworker, maybe in some situations, but we need that from our partner. So the needs are more and they're higher, but still we're talking about, this isn't a self need. Okay. There are self needs. But when we're talking about attachment needs, we're again, I know I keep saying the same thing over and over, but I really want to drive this message home. We're talking about what we need to feel safe and or close to someone else. Yeah. I know. I know we need both. Okay. So now, you're talking about a topic and you know, you could be talking about any topic, but the reason this topic is going to go into the cycle is because there's an unmet need in it, an unmet attachment need. And in that unmet attachment need, I don't feel seen. I don't feel hurt. I don't feel valued. And now, what comes up in your body, in that it's an unmet need. Fear. And where does that fear sit? It's the anxiety and just discomfort in my chest. Okay. And sometimes it is a tightness in my head. Okay. Okay. So when this need goes unmet, you know, your body responds to that without even thinking, it's all not conscious. It's all unconscious. What happened? You're not sitting there going, oh, I'm getting this message from him. That's creating this unmet need. That's what I need for your mind to be able to do, but it's not there yet. And then the fear comes up and we know that underneath that fear is is other stuff, right? And what's underneath that fear? What is the fear? Fear. That's where we're going to get into the vulnerability. That it's so bad that for whatever reason, either he's going to go away or we're not going to figure this out and be able to. So that's the, that's the consequence of the fear and how are you going to feel if that comes true? Either of those. It's awful. Like the worst pain that you can think of. And when you say pain, you mean sad alone, you know, that's kind of always the bottom of the barrel. Grief. Right. Another wound to deal with in life. Yes. Another one to pile up on the others. Yeah. Yeah. That's horrible. So I don't mean to rush over this, but again, this is just me assessing where we are and your awareness of the cycle. And then so again, you get the message and the message is the unmet need. The unmet need goes to fear and the fear goes just to pain. And then what do you do in the cycle to protect yourself and maybe historically and even today and in the present, the relationship and its presence? Again, I think it's, it's morphed over time. I'd say in the most recent past, it's been shut down and silence and withdrawing. Uh-huh. Interesting. Interesting. And what is the, um, what is the function of that shut down? Why does your body do it? What is your body trying to do in that shut down? Just not engage with anything that. Pause more pain. So it's trying to escape the pain and there's no hope in helping me. So I just need to go do this on my own. Yeah. Okay. And in that, you know, now you're, you're going into helping yourself, but in the past, you would have protested. Yeah. And the protest is to beg him to help you. That's probably what the ultimate goal was. I always thought it was begging and pleading for him to see me and see what I was dealing with. Right. Begging him to see. And if he could see, then you would be helped emotionally. Right. You're looking for co-regulation. And, you know, that, that protest is trying to bring attention to the problem. So he'll come to you. And then if he comes to you, now you don't have to feel the fear and you don't have to feel the pain. That was the hope. Absolutely. That's what I'm trying to highlight here is the protest had a function. It was trying to do something important. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't working. So then your body did started to go to this other strategy, which is, well, he's not there to co-regulate or somehow that's not landing. And so now I need to just go help myself. And then so the O in tempo is organized. But before I organize this, I need to go over here to U Mike and understand, see what you know about this cycle. And this is really helpful to me because what happens for me is I know these cycles so well with couples. I mean, this is what I do. Because this is what I do. I mean, I don't know how to do your job, right? So put me in your job and I'm going to fail miserably. But for me, it's so easy for me to see it. Sometimes I forget what other people see and can see. And so what I'm learning here is that we still need to get some clarity around what goes on in this situation and slow it down because this is what I need you to have clarity around outside of here. And so Mike, let's just start with her, you know, going into protest or going into shutdown because both of those are going to send you the message she's upset. And that's your trigger, right? Yeah. Okay. And so what either you can start with either what happens in your body right there or the meaning of her being upset that's such a threat. And that's the unmet need. So you can either way and I can help you if you don't know where to start. Yeah, I think, I mean, there's all kinds of thoughts, you know, depending on what it is, you know, it's, it's, you know, I've, I've let her down again, you know, I've held again or sometimes. Okay. So we're going to, we're going to slow there since this is just an assessment and we're just going to stick there, which is, I failed. And I failed is I'm not being seen as a successful partner, which is something that I need to feel safe and close. Right. Can we agree on that? Okay. So the unmet need is I'm not being seen as successful in her eyes. I'm seeing being seen as a failure. And that is something that you need to feel safe and close. So that's your out, right? And then what happens in your body right in that moment when you get this message, uh, oh, I'm failing again. It's like a tightness in my chest and just like an anxious feeling. Okay. Okay. And then what do you do in the cycle to protect yourself? Oh, I'm sorry, I missed a piece. It is under that. What's the pain under the fear? Because the anxious is the fear, right? What happens if you, if this is true, if you are not successful for her, where's this going to go? I mean, no, we're good. It's kind of like you kind of go into the, yeah, it's, it's, she's going to get fed up with it. You know, she's going to leave. She's, yeah. You know, all right. Where this goes for you is lost pain. She's gone. Sadness alone regret. That's the vulnerability. Right. Yeah. Okay. That's what's on the line. That's what's on the line here. Okay. And then now your body is going to say, protect. Don't go there. Protect that pain. I've been there. I know it. It's unbearable. And so then what do you do right there or say to her to try to get this situation resolved so you don't have to go into the pain? I'll try and, you know, explain or justify. Um, it'll actually one of the, this is where I was actually going with the other topic, but in really, we're going to go there. I promise. But right now we're going to stick to simple, which is you try to explain and justify. And what is the explaining and justifying hoping for? What if you could get her to understand and see what you're trying to explain? It's like you hope for a de-escalation of a situation and it's like she, she understands and she comes back. Okay. And so this is, this is it, right? Your body goes into explain and justify. It tells you to do that. That yucky feeling tells you to do that. And if you, the hope in that is if she can hear me, she won't be mad and she won't go away. She won't just build up all this resentment that will end up with me being in, in big pain. Yeah. That's how your body tries to protect. And I think in some, or just real quick, I think in some instances, my protection is just an outright shut down as well. When, when she pulls away, I pull away. We've been in that plenty of times. Yeah. And that's usually what happens with the avoidant partner is they start with trying to de-escalate, explain, justify a piece. And then when that doesn't work, they, they just cut it out. They cut it, they cut it off. They try to just escape the pain. Okay, Julie jumping in here. So I want to highlight the exact progression of Mike, the avoidant partner, his defense mechanism. So when Mike senses that Rachel is upset, his body, his nervous system, before he even has time to think, interprets this based on a lot of past information that gets, you know, wired into him, he interprets it as I'm a failure. And then his first line of defense is just to throw out words, explaining, justifying, to try and just quickly put the fire out so she won't leave him or reject him. But when she doesn't instantly calm down, then his nervous system gets so overwhelmed by this mounting failure and that he pulls the rip cord. He just shuts down or worse. He bends the truth to kind of force the conflict to end in the moment. And we'll just kind of deal with it later, is obviously without thinking about it. So the goal isn't to hurt her. The goal is simply, don't hurt. Get away from the pain. And that's what happens when people grow up in homes where they don't ever learn how to deal with the pain, is they have to learn all of these ways to not have to feel it. All right, well, let's dive back in and see how this plays out. Because what's happening in the just if I explain a piece is it's failing. So now, not only are you failing the original situation, now you're failing, trying to keep her, get her to be happy. And it's just too much. And that's what you're shutting down, right? And I know this is me moving fast. Again, I'm trying to figure out where we are. And the hope in that is so you don't have to hurt. Period. The end game is don't hurt. Okay, so now I'm going to do this. Oh, and organize it all. So usually these triggers are going to start with the anxious partner because they're not necessarily start there, but they're going to be the ones that bring it up. That's the difference there. The lawyers aren't bringing up problems because they don't want to go into the conflict. And they're good at just shutting it all out. So you, Rachel, you're not good at shutting it out because anxious partners get overwhelmed by this stuff and they can't make it go away. And so you get a message that unmeats your need and that unmet need is I don't feel seen. I don't feel like I'm being shown up for in the way that I need to feel safe and close. Your body goes into fear. Your chest gets that tightness and the pressure in your head. That's the fear. And it's not just fear. It's the consequence of the fear, which is this isn't going to work. This is, you know, either it doesn't work or we stay stuck in this miserable place where this stuff just keeps getting triggered. And definitely then we have pain on top of pain. Your body knows that and it's sad and it's alone and there's grief there. And it's so much. And so what your body used to do is with all this pain, it used to just go into protest, which is the function of the protest is I've got to get to pull him into me to help me. If I can just get him to see the problem, he'll change and he'll do the right thing and then I won't have to hurt. And now your body does something new. You've given up on that strategy. So you just go into pull away, don't bother reaching and helping yourself. I'm just going to go try to help myself. But that is, you know, also a lonely place to be. And so then now she's upset, Mike. You either get there by her shutting down or her protesting. It doesn't matter. Your body knows she's upset. And then now your nervous system, the unmet need and that is I'm a failure to her. And that is when the tightness in your chest comes up. and your nervous system says, "Oh no, alarm bell, this is scary, it's fear," because where this goes, and again, this isn't conscious, where this goes is to loss, and grief, and alone, and regret. And so what your body tells you to do, what you've learned to do with your pain, is what people with avoid an attachment have learned to do. They've learned to explain, justify, appease, just get her to be okay, get her to be okay, because if I can just get her to hear the right words or see it in the right way, then she'll see me as good, and we won't, and we'll get out of this mess, but that doesn't work, and then you just try to shut it out to get out of the pain, and you probably go distract with other activities that do help you feel successful. Right. And you go try to offset the failure with things that help you feel successful, and then now we're in it, and then in the past, Rachel, that would trigger you more, and that's the cycle. So that's the organization of the pattern. So what I'm seeing right now is you guys have an idea of how this works, but you're still not super clear about all the, you know, the moving parts, and I want to get you, before we're done with this work, I want to get you more clear with all these moving parts. So I'm going to be having you put more words to it, and I'm going to be more clear, and we're going to use this example that you're about to share with me as a way to get a little more clear with what's going on, because the clearer you are, the clearer you'll be able to communicate about what you're needing from each other. Nailed it. Okay. So let's go to, I just need to know, you know, the birds eye view of the situation. Okay. Yes, I, there's, and there's been multiple instances, instances where this has happened, and it's in kind of where you're walking me into, and that last exercise was, you know, the, my tendencies are, you know, the avoidance tendencies to justify and explain a situation, you know, that's uncomfortable to, you basically de-escalate the pressure, I get out of the uncompropleness. What I've noticed, and it's probably, I would assume, fairly common, but there's times where I will either stretch the truth, basically, admit information or sometimes even lie to try and make myself comfortable. And that's something that is, has been a big problem for Rachel and I, because it's, you know, it's, that's a, it's a huge breach of the trust and safety that Rachel needs. And I recognize that, but it's also, you know, I've, I've, I've become aware of it, but it's also something that I know myself well enough, I res, it's my last resort. If I can't avoid, if I can't avoid the discomfort, then I can't just push it away. And I, in my justification, explanation isn't working. Then it's, you know, then that's like a, it's something that I have resorted to that's been, you know, kind of, in a sense, kind of cracked our foundation. And I know that's something that Rachel and I talked about last night. Because yeah, and I, you know, there's a lot of, and, you know, and then you also kind of nailed it to in that last cycle because once that happens, then there's a ton of regret around it, right? Once the truth comes out, then there's, it's just all downhill from there. So that's in a nutshell, what I wanted to say. But we can take it, you know, and what it's, you know, there's been, yeah, it's, I don't know if we need to hone in on a particular instance or something like that, but it's, that's kind of, I think it's, it's good to hone in on a particular instance because it helps us get to the emotions because these, you know, when we're not looking at something specific, we're just kind of talking globally and it's hard to get you into, wow, what happened for you right in that moment. So I would like to know where the last time this happened was. I don't. Referring back to the change in my protection behavior, I think it's somewhat tied to the last really big time this happened because there was an instance like over a year ago that happened which really broke my trust. Okay. So since we don't want to talk too much in detail about the content here, we're just going to call it two big lies. Okay. So you're, you're carrying these two big lies around in your body and in your mind, right? And I'm guessing that you've tried to get over it and tried to move past it, but you can't. It's unhilled and we can't talk ourselves into healing and unhilled women's, right? And part of what makes it hard is just even a few months ago when talking about some of this, you know, he said, you should trust me. You should. Okay. So then that's where I want to go next is when you try to talk about it, then you go into another cycle. And now it's not a paper cut on top of the wound. Now it's like, you know, niphing the wound. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. It reopens it. Yes. So we just again, so we have the wound and then we have these little things and now we're trying to work through that and we have these paper cuts on the wound. And so then you're trying to address the wound and probably the paper cut at the same time. And then that goes into another cycle, which is now like this sound so violent, but niphing the wound. Yeah. Okay. And it's unbearable and overwhelming and it's too much and you guys haven't figured out how to do all of it at once. So we need to get in there and heal this wound. Before we can go there, I've got to get you guys really clear about how this happens and how this comes up. So again, you're carrying this around and what is this? And I little things lead to big feelings. So I don't really want to call it little things. But what is this thing yesterday that brought all of this up? It's in our professional world, but it was a situation that came about quickly. He had given me updates along the way. Some of the things weren't totally aligning and making sense to me. So I explicitly asked like, this is my understanding. Is this accurate? And he and I did that twice and he did not correct me. Until late yesterday, there was like more information that came out. I put it together and I was like, this does not make sense to me because. What you just told me does not align with what I said my understanding was and you never corrected me. So you're getting the message that he's been here we are again, we're lying. Yep. With holding information, whatever it is. Yeah, I mean, we can call it lying. It is lying, right? With holding whatever. And I understand Mike, it's probably not a straightforward for you. Although it sounds like you do have some ownership over this and we're going to unpack that. So we can get you to a place where you're not having to do this to, you know, stay safe. And listen, you know, I don't advocate lying. I don't condone lying. It will destroy our harm relationships. But this is very, very common for people who are in a position of struggling. There's almost always going to be some lying take it place and a struggling relationship. So just to kind of normalize that. This doesn't mean you're some kind of like monster or just inherently dishonest person. So what is the end that need in the lie? Again, we want to get into that. What do you need to know to feel safe and close to him? That you're not knowing in this moment. But I can trust when he tells me. I need my partner to be truthful. And in that trust is I need to know you're going to show up for me. You're going to protect me from feeling dropped and all the bad things that come along with being lied to. Right. Right. And that's what trust is about showing up when you don't know that and what's coming up right now just as you, you know, as we say, I need to know I can trust and I need to know he's going to be there and show up and protect me from this pain. What's the pain? I can see it on your face, you're tearing up. It's lonely, it's scary. You know, just because you're in a relationship, in a partnership, you could feel really alone in that relationship. And nothing is going to take you to alone more than an unmet attachment need. And this is the big one. Well, they're all big, but there's just such a history of not feeling protected. And the truth is that even if you didn't have all those experiences in your past, it would still hurt. But it doesn't just, when this happens and the present, it taps into all of it and all the grief just hits you. I want you, since we're, you know, just trying to slow down and get more clear about these words. It's, I want you to tell Mike when I don't know that you're going to be there for me and protect me from this pain. I feel so alone and so sad in that. And I don't know that you can be there and show up for me and leaves me feeling really alone and really sad and scared. So does that help you be more clear about the link between the unmet need and the pain? That this isn't just about lying. Yeah. Okay. So again, if I say to you, what's the unmet attachment need in this place? What is it? Him showing up for me and protecting me. That's the heart of it. And it's in because it feels selfish to say that. Well, that's his job. One of his jobs is to do his part to protect you from pain. He can't do all of it because some of the pain has nothing to do with him. But we're working on the pain that he does have a role in. And it is his job to protect you from that as a partner, as someone who, you know, you've committed your life to him, right? He deserves the same from you. That's what we're here doing is helping you guys protect each other from hurting in the ways that you can and the ways that are appropriate. And there's nothing selfish about this ask. That we will talk about the fact that you go so quickly to its selfish and we'll talk about that later. Because I need to do some self work with you around that. And so Mike, I just want to know, is this making sense to you or is actually before I ask that question, what is happening in your heart right now? Are you open to hearing more about this? Yeah, I mean, definitely. It's such a, it's hard to hear. And so, you know, it makes complete sense just knowing that, you know, the, my role that it plays in, you know, kind of the breach of hitting her, you know, with that, it's like, it's weird because it's like the opposite in my mind, you know, is it's like when, well, sometimes, you know, if I'm lying about something, it's oftentimes I've told myself I'm trying to protect her, but in that very instance, I'm doing the extreme opposite and actually really not protecting her because she's, that she needs the information to fill safe and close and connected. And that's, that's what's just, it's, it's, yeah, it's like extreme opposite in my mind that's completely wrong. Like the whole script is wrong, that, you know, that leads us in this, in this place. Okay, so let me, before we go forward, I want to know for you, Rachel, how your nervous system is reacting as he speaks just right here and now. Is it calming or is it escalating? It's a little bit escalated, which is kind of surprising because I appreciate how he's willing to come face this and it's new behavior for him, but I am feeling like escalated right now. Okay, I really, that's so important now and that's why I checked it out. So I want to figure out what that is because Mike, you know, you're not doing anything wrong, but my job is to help you show up right now in the most co-regulating way possible because that's what's going to heal us. And then we, you have some really important stuff to say and we're going to get to that later, but I want to go back over here and, you know, Rachel, what you're saying is there's a lot of me that can take this in because it is new and it feels so much better than whatever was happening in the past. But I just, can we just talk to that part that is getting a little escalated right now? You can try, I don't know what's going on. Well, that's why we're here is to put words to it and organize it all. So it makes sense so we can do new things. There's wisdom in this, in this part that is saying, well, something's not, something's off. Could be your stuff, it could be his stuff, but what is the message that you're getting from him? What is it, but let me ask you this, where at the point where he was talking, did it start to your nervous system start to go up instead of down? What did he say? I don't know. My mind feels jumbled right now. Okay, so let's just slow down. I'm going too fast. And does the jumbled need right now? Oh, no, I think it might almost be like, there were so many times throughout the relationship that I would just have this gut feel that something wasn't right and that I knew that it wasn't the truth and I would just be like dismissed or I ultimately ended up feeling crazy. And so it's like now that he's admitting it, it's almost like just this flood of affirmation or cooperation or whatever you want to call it that I was right all along. There was no reason for me to feel crazy. Okay, Julie here. So don't miss this really validating moment for Rachel. And an anxious partner when any partner really, when their reality is constantly denied by their partner who's over there scrambling around trying to cover their tracks, it causes profound emotional distress. It's really painful, really confusing, really disorienting. There's nothing to grab onto. And so the partner eventually can really stop trusting their own intuition. So notice what happens when Mike finally owns his behavior. Rachel gets angry, but that anger isn't a bad thing. It's the healthy, righteous anger of a woman whose nervous system is finally allowed to say, I deserve the truth. My job here with Rachel isn't to quiet her anger. It's to make sure that Mike can hold space for it because that's what it needs to heal. So all right, let's jump back into the session and see where we land here. Is there some anger there? Yeah, it was just going to say there's anger. All right, let's, I mean, anger hurts, but let's dive into that. It has something important to say. What happens if we don't talk about the anger right now? I probably stayed jumbled. And then we'll come out outside of here. Yeah. So I want to just really understand this anger. What you're saying to me is that it's good to hear this. It gives me some hope, but at the same time for so long, I felt crazy. And I was right all along and I wasn't crazy. I wasn't crazy and I shouldn't have doubted myself because I got to a point where I didn't even trust myself for my own thoughts. So we need to figure out, you know, what this anger is needing to heal. Are you okay with the anger? What do you mean okay with it? Can you feel about the fact that you're angry? Do you feel like, is there a part of you that says I shouldn't be angry or I don't know? I think it's accurate. It's It's spot on. So are you able to validate your anger and say, "Hey, I can make space for you." Yeah. You have something important to say. Yeah. Okay. All right. So we don't need to do that work to get you to validate it because you already do. So now, what is the anger saying? What is the anger saying? You're not okay with it. I'm not okay with being dismissed and disrespected and not valued in a way that I get the truth. This anger has been with you. It was with you from the first time and then every time it happened, the anger probably got bigger and bigger. And I had voiced after the first big one, like, I deserve to be told the truth. And what was the response? I don't remember. It was usually, you know, yes, you do. Again, being told all the right things. Okay. So it wasn't necessarily the response. It was the fact that the anger keeps being retriggered because the same thing keeps happening that retrigger said. Right. The same unmet needs. Yeah. And I think it's gone from anger to just not anger anymore because it's more disappointment. Well, we know it's there because it just got triggered. Right. True. So my guess is that anger has turned into despair and depression. Some level of depression. That's what anger does. If it doesn't have a healthy outlet, it will somehow start eating you away on the inside. So I'm really glad that we're putting some words to it. All right. Well, we're going to press pause right there for today. So what a heavy conversation, you know, we completely deconstructed the anatomy of this lie and we saw how Mike's paralyzing fear of disappointing Rachel actually drove him to do the one thing that hurts her the most with holding the truth. We witnessed Rachel's profound relief and her understandable anger in finally having her reality validated. She wasn't crazy. Her gut was right. But as we sit in this anger, we're really standing on a knife's edge here. So next week, we're going to explore what happens when we get stuck in anger, when it's not clearing out, it's not getting relieved. My job in that situation isn't to say to someone, we'll stop being angry or just tell the other person, stop doing the thing that's making them angry. I got to figure out what's blocking the anger from being healed because anger, when it is healed, we don't need to stay stuck in it. So we're going to dig into Rachel's deep seated belief that her needs are simply too much to ask of anyone. About all of her beliefs that, but she got enough of those messages wired into her in childhood that that little voice is still there. It's too much. It's too much. It's too much to ask of anyone. And we're going to trace that fear again all the way back to childhood. So I want you to think about the paper cuts in your relationship. When you get into a silly argument about the dishes or scheduling, what is the more ancient wound underneath that? Are you actually fighting about the dishes or are you fighting because you feel unseen, unvalued, unprotected? So this week, just try to name the deep wound that's hiding beneath the surface of the argument. So send us an email, the voice note or email to [email protected] with your thoughts. And always thank you to everyone for listening and coming along this journey with us. And last but certainly not least, a big thank you to Mike and Rachel for sharing their story with us. Thank you guys so much. And until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships. And I'll see you next week.