S3 | Session 14: The Burden of the Poker Face: How Hiding Stress Hurts Your Marriage

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Secure Love podcast. I'm your host Julie Manano. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I'm author of the book Secure Love, creative relationship that lasts a lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So if you've been following Mike's journey this season, you know his default setting is to handle his stress completely on his own. We saw the damage that caused when he hid things from Rachel earlier on. And today we get a really clear picture of why he isolated himself. He recently got some great news about a big work project, but instead of just celebrating, he admits to Rachel that he's quietly carrying a ton of pressure behind his professional poker face. So in this session, we trace this habit straight back to his childhood and we find out that when Mike struggled as a kid, his parents anxiety would spike and they would distance themselves. So without realizing it, Mike internalized a really heavy lesson. If you show your struggles, you lose your connection. And that's really sad. And so to keep the peace, he decided his job was to protect his parents from bad days and bad feelings. And he admits that he spent his time not wanting to stir those emotions within them. So as a child who should be able to rely on their parents for emotional support and their parents to be the strong ones to help them learn how to do their hard emotions because they can regulate their own, discuss shifted with him where he was a child who had to feel responsible for his parents' emotions at the expense of him learning how to do his own. So today is about helping Mike unlearned up. And it's a slow process, but he is starting to see that he just doesn't have to carry this heavy stuff by himself anymore. All right, well, let's listen in and catch up with Mike and Rachel. Let me just ask, how was your weekend? I think it was pretty good. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was Saturday. We had a Christmas party with the extended family. So on my mom's side. So that was, I think that went pretty well. It was actually the first time we'd all gotten together in like three years. So it was lots of people ahead and seen the long time. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, that was good. And then after our session, we had a really good talk though, going into that. Yeah, because he did, he did really good. And he let me know how he was feeling going into it. And he had a little bit of anxiousness and it led to a really good discussion. And it helped me know where he was at. And then I felt like I was better prepared to try and support him. So that was really nice. Yeah, no, for sure. Can we, can we walk through this? Maybe like. What were some of those feelings that he shared with you that allowed you to know how to support him? He mentioned that he was a little anxious going into it because in a gathering like that, obviously, you don't know who's going to come up to you and say what kind of things or what they've heard. We had mentioned, I think that project to you that we got some good news lately. And so he was, I think it was a little nervous about maybe people asking about that because at a really high level, yes, it looks like a slam dunk. But we have a lot of work behind the scenes to make it successful in the long run. And there's a lot of beginning. Yeah, there's a lot of pressure. And so that was something that he shared that I really appreciated. He let me know that, you know, yes, it's great that his, his mom talks about how good he's doing. But at the same time, it puts pressure on him. And that was the first time that he's shared kind of that hard piece of what that does to him. So I told him like, you're doing awesome. I love that you're sharing your heart with me. It's very easy to understand how that duality could sit on your shoulders. You have, I'm getting all this, you know, this good feeling stuff of people think I'm successful. But at the same time, they don't see the pressure that it adds. And then I think I even asked like if you could say what you wanted to say, what, you know, to your mom, what would that sound like? And he very quickly said what he would want to say to her. And I was just, I was very impressed. Very impressed and excited for that he's putting words to it. And so it's like that kind of me that's probably been rolling around inside of him, but he's never said to that. It's kind of like, yeah, I got a book deal. Yeah. What does this mean? Yeah. Right? I just find my life away. Yeah. Amazing. But then an intense amount of pressure. Exactly. It really helped me because as you can imagine, living with him the past several years. And trying to figure out who he really is, what's really going on behind his in his mind. He never gives the impression that he's worried or fearful or feeling a lot of pressure from anything. And so, you know, even with this big project over the past couple of years, he hasn't really talked about that side of things. It's always, he's always given me the impression that he is so solid. He is so confident. He is so sure this is a sure thing. It's made it easy for me to fall in that camp too when I do have a lot of fears. And then I just, yeah, why it? Because he seems so confident. So it was really helpful to know that he truly does have some reservations and fear around us. I do this. No. So what happens in the past when you didn't put words to those fears, where did they go? How did they get, you know, acted out or with me or with him? I think with him, let's start. I'll assume they came out in the relationship. And some way, you know, these things take, take hold on many different parts of life when we're not acknowledging them. Being with them and putting words to them and getting help with them. So good question. I would say, yeah, I probably just avoided a lot of it. I'm just stuffed it down and focused on what's good. That is something that I am kind of really good at. You know, it's something that's, yeah, I can, I can easily shut away the bad puttiffs and the positives. And then just take that nervous energy and put it towards work and make you heard that it is successful. If that makes sense. It does. It does. And, you know, I know sometimes people get scared that if they get rid of this stuff, they'll lose their edge. Does that come up? Like, oh no. If I start leaning into these fears, what's going to happen while I lose my motivation? It's kind of a combination of, and I actually mentioned this to Rachel. It's, it's kind of having like almost in a healthy way, living in a dual out of the, of having Rachel that's, you know, really close, really vulnerable with her and getting comfortable and, and sharing those true feelings and emotions. So she understands where I'm coming from, but then there's, then there's just the professional world where you got to live with your poker face on and don't ever, you know, essentially in the business world, you know, it's got to be a sure deal. And you have to be, when you're talking to investors and engineers and everybody, you got to, you got to talk with certainty, right? It's not a, oh, I don't know about this. This could be, you know, so that's where it's like it's an interesting spot for me to kind of to live. Because it's, you know, I think that's what's kind of really nice with Rachel, home life, just having those true feelings, true conversations, deep connection. But then I think she can help me, you know, help understand why I'm the way I'm professionally. And like I said, you can't, there can't be a sense of uncertainty. You know, it's just, it's a word, it's a word spot. Do you, do you think that maybe having an outlet for the fear under that poker face that you can't show at work can actually help you maintain the poker face more sustainably. Yeah, you need to do it work, right? You need to do that. It's like, you know, if you're a firefighter, you can't lean into your fears as you go into this fire. You have to put that away. Right. Yeah. And I honestly think that will help. And it's going to help Rachel to understand me better and truly know what's going on within me, regardless of what I'm saying. And she could, I think she could just show up for me better in a lot of ways. Like we're on the same page. We're connected. You know, she knows that the true feelings around the situation. We're on the same wavelength. I don't know how I'll say it besides, you know, it's, it's not like because yeah, historically I would. For all intents and purposes, kind of shield those negative emotions, use a public base towards Rachel just knowing that, you know, if I do let down those walls that she's probably going to have a, it's going to, it could trigger her. You know, that's always my fear, I guess, in that instance. All right, Julie here. So let's pause here quickly. This right here is the core, you know, of avoidant attachment. Again, Mike realized early on that his parents didn't really have the capacity to sit with his pain. This is happens out of conscious awareness. So to keep his home life comfortable and safe, he took on the job of regulating their emotions by burying his own. You learned how to be easy, successful and just low maintenance. He doesn't hold things in because he's just cold or randomly secretive. He does it because for his whole life, his emotional safety depended on making sure the people around him were never worried about him because that was his way of staying safe with them. And of course, we need to help him use this information and insight and emotional work around this to start not having to keep doing this. All right, so let's go back in here. That's what I was going to ask. Did you, you know, have you ever shared this with your mom before that you have these fears around performing with a shot or any job? Not really. It's been, there's, I think there's been some kind of a starting to do that, but historically now. Yeah. Well, what kept you from doing it historically because that's what's going to help me understand what's been getting in the way of you, you know, reaching to Rachel for support around these feelings? Because how you learned, you know, what you learned about the safety around sharing these things really stems from your, you know, how those were dealt with growing up, which we already know some about, but I don't know this particular flavor of it where if you went to your mom and you said, Hey, can we talk? You know, I'm just, I'm so happy I got this job. You know, it's amazing, but there is also this part of me that's like, can I live up to this expectation? Can I really pull this off? What if I can't, you know, what would that reaction have been like? I think she would have, she would understand, I don't know that she would be able to sit with me in that. She would probably say, you know, you're, you know, you're so smart or whatever, you're going to, you got this figured out, don't worry about it. Okay. So she'd pump you up. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. And, and in a lot of ways, I think we can agree that that has been useful for you to have a family that pumps you up, right? Right. Right. That's how you learned to deal with your own fears is pump yourself up. You said earlier, focus on what's good. Just again, you know, if, if we're pumping ourselves up to the degree that we're just, you know, using that pumping up to just stuff these feelings away, you said, what happens is that those feelings, those normal human feelings of, can I pull this off would be, you know, turn into this kind of anxious energy that you then would put into work more to regulate the energy, right? Right. Right. Okay. And then not only does that leave the fears unhelp and just alone with that pain, was there any downside to kind of overworking here? Do you feel like maybe you're working to the point of imbalance and other part of your lives? I don't know the answer. I'm just curious. Sometimes that's what happens is people are trying to regulate their fears with working in a way that kind of creates issues and relationships or other parts of self. I would say it's probably very close to that in a kind of straddling that over, you know, what's working too much in some, some instances and not, you know, basically having the full attention towards family life or Rachel or whatever that, you know, there's what gives takes, right? So if it's, if there's a lot of energy going towards that, that, you know, the relationships are struggling. Okay. So you're saying that's not, you know, that's not so much of a problem. So I think it was probably a couple of years ago. I think you got more awareness around it, but I don't know that just because you had more awareness around it and have shifted a bit, I assume the nervous energy is still there on the inside because it's not, it's not going anywhere. Okay. Here's what we're going to do with that nervous energy because you're already now starting to talk about it, which is going to help a lot, right? Because when you're talking about it, you're getting that out, you're getting support around it. And when we don't, when you don't have as much nervous energy, you don't need to work as much to regulate it, right? Right. You don't need to distract and find things to help you feel successful. But where I want to go with this is I want to dive more deeply into the actual fear of failure. What's this fear about? Okay. What happens if you, you know, what would it look like to not do this job well, just in kind of vague, vague terms, you know, right? Because I know you don't want to be too specific here, but letting a lot of people down. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a, there's not only a relational let down, there's a monetary let down, and there's a reputational ego let down. Sure. Which is related to the other two categories, right? Which if your reputation goes, what happens? Right. Yeah, it makes, it makes everything else going forward harder. And, you know, it's harder to get, you know, job that's harder to, you know, have various teams believe in, you know, your company, and, you know, the development, whatever it is, it's, it's a lot of, there's a lot there. Yeah. Then you lose money. Then you, you know, if we catastrophize this, how might Rachel view you if you lost your success? I understand this is just parts, but, you know, the fear, what does the fear part say about? What would she see in me if I failed everything? That's an interesting one, because Rachel's always shared with me that she's not, she's not in it for the money. Money is not everything here. So that's like, you know, we do have, I don't want to say that's my, you know, end all be all either, but it is, it's a big driver, right? I want to set the family up for success. Sure. Well, let's move it. Maybe we can just move it out of money and into how would, how would you feel about yourself? If you looked back on this situation and you had all this opportunity, you dropped it. It would be a lot of, I think a lot of regret in the sense of shame. Yeah, I'm guessing that it would really have some level of impact on your sense of worthiness as a person, as a worker, as a man, as a husband, as a father. Yeah, it's definitely one. I'd say it would. What comes up as I put some words to that here? It's interesting, you know, because my mind also in those instances, as a defense mechanism wants to go to a justification place and that it's, that's a place of, hey, if this doesn't work, it was a high risk development, it's all right. It's to be. Yeah, that's the pump yourself up, place. Yeah, that's, that's like what just happened in my mind, you know, because that's like, what if you couldn't do that, what would you have to feel? I mean, there's just a lot of discomfort there. Where is it sitting your body? Right now it's going to head interestingly. Okay. All right, so let's just hold there. Do you feel any, any fear, any sadness here, any, I don't understand if we can maybe put some words to what your body is experiencing, some feeling words? If you couldn't pump yourself up, if you just had to sit with the failure. Yeah, it's, I'd say it's fear, fear sadness just, yeah, it's an uncomfortable place. It's, I'm not sure about that else, but it works, dude. Okay, no, I think you did. It's just fear and sadness, loss, grief. Your body knows that would be really hard and painful to go there. So you try to keep yourself from going there by working hard to avoid it. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that sometimes we can't avoid it, right? So there's no talking ourselves out of the reality that bad things could happen. You can try it with the probably still there. We know at the end of the day that life is unpredictable. I think there's value in just sharing these things. And I think that you did that over the weekend. So this is not necessarily something that you're not able to do. You're really getting good at it. But just to get a little more practice, I just want you to share with Rachel right now. Yeah, there's, you know, that would be really devastating for me. There would be a lot of sadness and a lot of regret. If I didn't get this right. Yeah, it would be really hard and just detrimental to me and just kind of devastating in a lot of ways. If I don't get this right and they don't pull this off, it's just a lot of pressure. So how is it to put words to it and let her in? I feel again, it's, I want to say to Julie, it's like going through these exercises and telling these things or Rachel like that, feeling of relief is, it feels really good. And that's what kind of it's drawing me back to, to just know that it's so well received and it's a connecting thing and that's something that is just truly powerful. You're so lucky to have such a supportive woman over here. Totally agree. Yeah. I mean, really, it's pretty amazing. When you say there's so much relief, they're, help me understand what that relief is in your body. Like, is it a relaxation, a lowering of tension, like just help me understand the physical sensation around relief? It's just, it's like, yeah, it's a relief of just pressure and the tension and just kind of knowing, it's like letting Rachel in is just, it's, it's like I'm no longer carrying that by myself. I'm no longer carrying that tension that nobody knows about and that sharing that and having, you know, Rachel know that that's what's going on with inside me is it's like not carrying the weight alone, not that I wanted to shift it to Rachel Vanienmeen's with his, it's also helpful sharing. So, you know, we're connected and she understands truly that. Yeah, I think what you're learning is that she actually feels more safe when she can carry some of this with you. That's, that's where the connection is. That's what I've tried so long to prevent was to just protect her from all in an unrealistic way. And a quick note for the men listening who are looking for a dedicated space to connect and grow, we have a men support group with the guidance of our wonderful therapist, Josh, which is designed just for that for men. It's a supportive online community where men can explore emotional availability and the tools for building healthier, more fulfilling relationships. So, to join this community, check out the links in the podcast description or visit the securerelationship.com. Yeah, because you had to learn to protect when you, when you would come to your parents and with, with pain and their reaction was to move away from that and deal with kind of their own anxiety around it by getting you to feel better, which is empathy also, right? You had to learn, don't burden them. Not only is it going to put pressure on them, but it's also not going to really leave me feeling anywhere, any relief. And then on top of that, maybe even bad about yourself for creating a burden. Yeah. Okay. Tell me about that. You don't want her carrying it all, taking it all on, right? What would that be like for her? Do you think if she had to just carry it all and take it all on? Just a ton of worry and discomfort, sleepless nights, just, you know, and, you know, and I know Rachel, I mean, that's, that's, that's the things that I, that's what I, I don't want. It's the thing that I know will impact her, but I don't want that to happen. And you know, that's, it's it. It's a, I'm smirking because it's a delicate balance. She doesn't tell me and I still have discomfort, stress, sleepless nights. Yeah. That's, that's what these cycles do is they, they're, they become self-fulfilling prophecies. You're over here going, well, according to my, you know, relational template, we just move feelings away. We don't acknowledge them. We don't go there because they're too much and we don't burden other people with them because they're too much. But then Rachel's relational template is saying, I need connection to feel safe. I need to know I can reach you and you can reach me and I'll be invited in to feel safe. And so when she doesn't feel safe, that, that's what causes her to stay up at night. And of course, there's this other extreme which would be putting it all on her, you know, that could happen sometimes with people as they do kind of just constantly bring their anxiety to another person and a way that does actually put pressure on that person. That's the opposite extreme, right? I need you to fix this. I need you to fix this and in a way that they can't possibly fix. But that's not even close to being a risk for you, Mike, right? That's like the worst thing that you could think of doing is that to someone, expecting someone else to fix things for you. Because what kind of people do that? What kind of people just dump their stuff all over others? And I don't mean intentionally or I'm just trying to, you know, paint a dramatic picture here of that person out there that, you know, just dumps everything on another person. Yeah, I think it's one that just, I don't know, I don't know, I just can't deal themselves. I mean, they're incapable of whatever, for some reason, whether it's intellectually, emotionally, physically. There's a reason for it. Yeah, I could say not to bash that person because, but yeah, that's definitely what I don't want to be. No, exactly. Is that like just weakness at the end of the day? Could we just say there, there just, it's just a weakness. Like they're too weak to figure it out on their own. So they have to get it from others, get too much from others. Yeah, it's, yeah, for some reason or another, there's an inability there. And that's, yeah, it's weakness to me is a strong word. Okay. But at the end of the day, yeah, it's, it's likely a good descriptor of, is it more like it incompetent? It's, depending on what capacity we're talking about, that's, you know, yeah, I think it's just not, and there could just be an outright, yeah, incompetence or unknowingness or just yeah, somebody that doesn't know how to do it. Okay. And that could be, you know, if you, if you did, you know, let's say, fail this job, right? And I understand there's a part of you that would make sense of it as, you know, what, what you said earlier, I can't remember what it was. You said it was a justification like it, it was too big of a job or it wasn't really possible or something along those lines. Right. So there is a part of you that could walk away from that, you know, really, see, making sense of it in that way, but we all also kind of have a tendency to make sense of these things that don't go so well as well my bad. And what would your bad be that voice? What would that voice say about what you did wrong to get it, to cause it to not work out? There's a lot of layers there. There's lots of trying to think of how to summarize it. something in a kind of a condensed way. It's like, no, it's trying to stay out of the. There's lots of. What are you trying to. What are you trying to stick out of? Getting to. in an intellectual philosophy. There's that pull though. That pull is so strong, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, it's. There's just so many points of risk, right? And these big projects and it's. Whether it's timing, whether it's money, whether it's resources, whether it's. You know. So the bigger part of you can look at it, can say, hey, if it doesn't work, I can understand there's so many moving parts that it could not work for anyone. The most competent person out there could have this go-go south, right? Right. Right. But I just want to talk to that part and it might not be here. But if it is here, we need to talk about it. That part that might say, how come I didn't get it right when someone else could have? Is there. Is that part there that believes that. If you mess up, there is a possibility that someone else could have done it right. That's. Yeah, it's always a possibility. I mean, whether they have. More resources or more money or more experience or. Yeah, that's always. That's always a possibility. Okay. For sure. Okay, so it doesn't. It doesn't sound like this is. If this fails, which I highly doubt it will, but it doesn't sound like you're going to be yourself up too much over it. You'll be very disappointed. Right. But you're not going to walk away saying, well, it failed because maybe I'm incompetent or I'm not as good as the other guys out there or whatever. Yeah. I think there would be a lot of disappointment. And it's like. And the one thing too is. And just to let you know, Julie, it's kind of like one thing about this, the business where I am is. When you get a development to a certain point, it's always a marketable thing to sell. It's like. So it's like. There's always like an off-ramp. If you truly have a good project development, there's always an off-ramp. I see. Okay. You want to take it as far as you can to get the max value out of it, but it's. It's like. That's one of the things that I rationalize with myself is. Take it as far as we can until we can't. And that's just. It's not like. In a sense, it's not like. It's an absolute success or failure. There's like a middle. middle gray area. That's kind of. That I. I use for comfort. Okay. No, I mean, I. That makes sense. And I think, you know. So what I'm hearing is that there's not going to be like a ton of shame around this. If it doesn't go well, you know, the. Real hard part in it would be. Maybe the financial loss or the reputational letdown. Letting people down. You mentioned that earlier. So where do I guess those things come into play here? It's. Yeah, that. The relationships are. Really big. And that's something I've talked to Rachel about, too, is it's. It's like. You know, there's like this almost perceived sense of. Kind of like all eyes on you, you know, are all eyes on me. And there's just a lot of. There's just. In this, you know, this particular instance, there's. What might those eyes see? What might those eyes see. If you don't get this right, all the eyes are on you. What are you afraid those eyes will see? We want those eyes to see you as competent and strong and successful. Yeah, it would be the opposite. So it would be. Okay. You know, there were. Whether we're incompetent or we. Don't know what we're doing or. We don't have the resources or. Okay. And so. You don't want to be viewed that way. Nobody wants to be viewed that way, right? Right. I'm not sure that there's a part of you that believes that's true, though. The. Which part? I'm not sure that there's a part of you that actually believes. Maybe we don't know what we're doing or incompetent. You just don't want to be viewed in that way. Right. Right. Okay. So here's where I would. What I'm trying to do is figure out where. You know, where some of your shame lies, so we can get some help for it. So what has kept you in the past from. This is just a fear. This is just a normal fear. If nobody wants to be viewed as incompetent. Whether they believe that they are or not, that there's. You know, as humans, we are wired to want to be viewed as competent. By our other, you know, fellow humans, right? Especially those that we rely on for needs, like emotional support or people in your career that you need for them to view you in a positive light. But where I want to do the work then is. We know one of the things that's kept you from talking about these fears to get, you know, some of that energy discharged around them with Rachel has been not really having the words for them to begin with. But what about that part that has said, "Well, I shouldn't share these things with her." And we're going back to the burden thing. I don't want to burden her. What would. How would you view yourself if you did, you know, burden her? That we know now we're learning that this isn't actually a burden for her. But what would you think about yourself if. Let's say it's somewhere in life you did actually burden her. I mean, it's a terrible feeling, right? It's like not being. It's like the opposite of me and it's supportive of husband as being husband that's burdened. Right? It's. Yeah, it's not. It's nowhere near where I want to be. It's. It's. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, again, we come to this place where, you know, sometimes we are a burden. Yeah. You know, it's easy to say, well, sharing your feelings isn't a burden. But I don't want to ignore the fact that part of being in relationships is that sometimes we do burden each other, right? How do you feel about that? It's a really good point because yeah, it's. Something that's very true is, you know, it's. It's. yeah, relationships are, you know, very much, you know, for some plastic, it's like some plastic is like a two-way street, right? It's not. You can't give everything and, you know, not getting back. So it's. Yeah, it's. I never thought about it that way though in terms of just. Sometimes I am a burden. Which is, you know, which is an interesting. Interesting but true way of putting it. Is that. is that heart. is there a part of you that that's kind of a hard pill to swallow? Like, wow. Being in a relationship does, you know, require me on some level to burden someone else. It's at the end of the day, it's all for a good cause. It's its connection, right? The connection involved sacrifice. Right. Yeah, no, that is. Putting her in a position to sacrifice something. What does she have to sacrifice to be with you? A lot. Like what? Basically, I had to uproot, you know, her life and family to come and be, you know, with me and. in the life that we're building together. And that's. Yeah, that's a. It's a burden. Do you see your family dynamic as. a burden to her? And I know this doesn't define the situation, but is there a part of you that sees your family? It's. yeah, it's. it's in a. in a sense, yeah. What sense? Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it's. it's multiple relationships that require something, you know, from. from Rachel, from me to maintain. And it's. it is a. you know, we can call it a burden to meet those needs and to. to try and meet those needs, it's put it that way. Yeah, and when I say burden, And I don't necessarily mean this big, bad, global thing. I just mean it does require some sacrifice, right? Mm-hmm. It requires some times when maybe she would rather just do things with the, you know, your little group that you guys have going instead of being with the big extended family, but she just, you know, does that anyway out of love? Or, you know? Yeah. But we're just, you know, so we're talking about the part of you right now. We're talking to the part of you right now that maybe I don't know fears that that might be too much to ask from her or because here's the thing, like you get all the good out of it, right? You get all the good out of the family support because this, you know, this is your comfort zone and this is, you know, it's been with you your whole life. It's a, it's a normessor of comfort, right? But then she gets some of the good, but she also gets this stuff that she has to sort of learn to deal with, right? Yeah. And so what is it like for you to kind of have to, have to ask that of her or, you know, do you worry like that's too much of an ask or, I don't know, I'm just trying to find. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, if it's, you know, if it's something that I know Rachel may not entirely agree with or she would rather do something else or whatever it is, it's very hard because yeah, that's, it's a burden to her to ask her to go against that grain and try and, you know, flex or, you know, just be, do, do, do, do what it takes to essentially, what, you know, in some way, whether it's being with the family or doing an activity or whatever it is. Okay, so it could be anything that causes her to kind of not do what she really wants to do, right? Make us sacrifice. Yeah. Right, right. Okay. And how are you feeling just kind of putting words to this that yeah, there is something here. There is some discomfort around, you know, having to be in a relationship where we have to accept that sometimes we need our partner or one, our partner to do something. Maybe they don't want to do right then and there. It's true. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of truth in it. And it's, for me, it's an uncomfortable thing to ask. And so, yeah, I want to know, you know, what might happen? Like what does the fear say might happen if you ask her to do something that she doesn't want to do? Not globally, but just in the moment, right? Like, I don't know that, you know, triggers the right word, but it would, it could put us on tilt, you know, it could take a good afternoon and turn it upside down. And so do you fear like maybe she would resent you or be upset with you or? Depending on what it is, yeah, it could be, yeah, she could resent the situation or feel like she's not being heard or seen. And I think that's kind of what circle is back to. Okay, so there is this fear that you carry just kind of speaking about this whole idea of, you know, by inviting her into your life, you have asked her to take on things that, you know, maybe she doesn't want to take on all the time. It doesn't end there. It goes to, and if she does have to take on these things in a moment like we're doing something she doesn't want to do, does that always kind of give you this sense of angst? Like if you know she doesn't really want to do something or. Yeah, it does. And I don't think that's necessarily abnormal. I think what it is is if we're not talking about it, then in checking it out with each other, right? And looking for some reassurance, which is, hey, I know you don't really want to be doing this, but can I just get some reassurance that you're not mad at me around this? Like you can have your disappointment and not be mad at me at the same time kind of a thing. Yeah. Because you guys haven't known how to do that. And, you know, there's work to do on both sides of the equation here. But so if you haven't known how to do that, how have you been managing this fear? Historically, just kind of, you know, avoiding it. I guess you might say just kind of like throwing it out there and then being like, you know, I know that's not going to be what she wants to hear, causing some sort of a trigger and then just kind of almost running away from it, which is not healthy, but it's kind of been, or trying to justify it and explain it. Okay. All right. So you've been trying to just kind of avoid that place and not either justify it and try to get her to be happy about it. Like here are the reasons why you should just be okay with this. I think you get it. You don't show it, but I think you get angry at me for not just falling in line and being okay with it. Yeah, there's absolutely some resentment that'll build. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, well, why can't you, if you would just be happy with it, then I wouldn't have to worry about you being mad at me. Right. Right. So I just want you right now just to say, yeah, there are, you know, there is some fear in me about moments when maybe, you know, I ask you to do something you don't necessarily want to do right then in there, or there is, there are some fears that I carry around, you know, the part of the relationship that could be kind of burdened sometimes. Yeah. There's just, there's oftentimes like just an uncomfortable in this discomfort, and almost like an anxious feeling that I get when I'm asking you to do things that I know that you may not want to do right then and there, or just be, you know, not really what you want to do. But that's something I struggle with. You know, and I want to just add one thing to that, which is, you know, sometimes I have that, those feelings just around, you know, bringing you here into my life to begin with. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard just knowing everything that you have given up to come out here and just something I carry and makes it hard. All right. So Rachel, I'm just going to ask you a little question here. Does this make sense to you? Absolutely. Okay. So that's all I want you to say right now is this makes so much sense to me. Thank you for sharing this. It makes so much sense to me. I appreciate you sharing it with me. Okay. And the reason that I want to just keep that small is because I want to go back in and I want to try to understand Mike, what this fear is needing to get help, because I don't want you to have to walk around with this fear all the time and have to deal. I mean, the fear is going to come up, right? That's what kind of life does to us is it we get triggers now and then, but I don't want you to have to with that fear, just try to either resent her that she's not feeling better about the situation. So you don't have to hurt or try to get her to see it differently or try to just kind of pretend that's not there. I don't want you to have to do that anymore. So what is it that just right here and now you know, she might be able to say to you to help you with this fear? What do you need to know from her? I think it's her sharing her heart with me, whether she, you know, truly is uncomfortable with the situation or if it's truly something that she doesn't want to do or just letting me know or in, I think you said it actually a little bit ago, but just even letting me know that hey, it's not her first choice, but she's happy and willing to do it, whatever it is. Or the opposite of it's like, hey, this is really something I don't want to do like sharing that too. Well, let's start. Let's start with the first thing that you said. It sounds like maybe you just need some reassurance right here and now that you know, she's still gonna love you even if sometimes you ask her to do things your way. Historically, like when I do bring those things out, it's usually met with silence. And I think Rachel takes a little bit of time to process things sometimes. It's, yeah. - What does that silence like for you? What does the silence like? What does your brain do to fill in the gaps there? - It's super hard. It sends me into that negative spiral of, you know, this triggered urge, she's not gonna be happy with this. You know, it's all those things. It goes to the kind of worst case scenario of this is gonna send us until then. We're gonna go into a cycle. - What would be the, you know, the opposite of that silence in the moment? moment, what would that sound like? - Okay, thank you for sharing what's going on and what you would like to do. And then her sharing her heart about it, whether it's something that's, you know, even I think just, I think one of the things I know about myself is in those times of discomfort, the silence is super hard for me, because it makes me go immediately into my mind. That's where I'm trying to learn too, that's like, let's sit with that for a minute and stay in the emotion, not escape to my mind, but historically I always go immediately to my mind and go to the worst place. God, that silence is just, yeah, it's. - So I think this is where things have gotten tricky, is that the silence is triggering for you because your brain starts to fill in the blanks, but it's also triggering for you if she were to say, no, this isn't really what I wanna do. - It's, yeah. - So we gotta figure out how we can get you at peace with no, this isn't really what I wanna do right now. What is threatening about that message? 'Cause that could be the authentic, you know, the authentic answer in a moment, right? - Right, it's a good question. 'Cause yeah, it will definitely trigger me, I guess. Especially if it's something that I, if it's something I'm on the fence about, it won't be as triggering, but if it's truly something I would like to do, then yeah, it's, and I think some of the things I've said in the past is can we collaborate on this? Just try and fill around to see if there's some weight bridge the gap. - Yeah, and so what, I'm really kinda talking about the moments here when there isn't a collaboration, right? When there's not room for that, when we're gonna have to do it one way or the other way. And here's where I don't want you to have to just kinda, either give up on your way or just do it anyway and hope it all works out, but also do it your way, but the cost of your way is that you have these lingering fears of her resenting you. And so what it is is that you're needing some sort of reassurance in these moments when you guys do it your way. And she's disappointed. I do wanna see you guys getting to the point where you can be more collaborative with each other and meet each other more. And I think that's the ultimate goal, right? Because, and that's what this work does, is we get this emotional connection going and these things do start to become so much smoother and easier. As you notice this weekend with your family event, right? But to get there to that emotional safety, we do have to figure out a way to navigate times when it is, someone is disappointed because the alternative is then we carry around this fear and that fear is going to get acted out. It's gonna turn into anger or it's gonna turn into kinda shutting down and things are, there's going to be negativity in the air that we're not putting words to or it takes you guys off-tell. Wouldn't it be nice if it didn't have to take you off-tell? - Yeah. - Right. And so again, where I would like to go is somewhere along the line in your life, you picked up the message that it's not so safe for someone else to be disappointed. There's some lack of safety there. You know, where did you pick that up? - It's a good question. It's, my initial thought is just at a very young age, my parents being happy with my behavior was just super important. - So what would it like for you if they were disappointed in you? - I hated it. It's, yeah, it's, - So what was something that you could do to disappoint them? - Yeah, it could have been a bad grade or not. - So let's say you got a really bad grade, okay? What would be, what do you think that would bring up for them? We know they're gonna be disappointed, right? But disappointed in what? Your failure, your inability to perform, your, you know. - I think all those things and it's, you know, yeah, I mean, it's all those pieces that kind of wants to make, wants to make sure that I'm, you know, safe. - Yeah, safe, you know, meeting expectations, okay. And so we're gonna have to assume that they were carrying some fear around you not doing well in life. - Interesting, yeah. - Okay, and I mean, that's, they're not going to care about your grades if it doesn't have some sort of meaning to it. - Right. - And most people, most, you know, parents care about their kids grades because they want to know their kids are gonna be safe. - Okay, so we know, can we agree then that your bad grade was a threat to their sense of safety? - Makes sense. - Okay. - And so then how did they react to their own fear and to you? What did they do with their own fear? - I think oddly enough, there was probably just a, not a lot said, there was kind of a silence. So it was a disconnection. - Yeah. - Okay, so I don't really know exactly how that worked, you know, what was going on with them, but I do know this, their fear took them away from you. That sounds to me like it was the worst thing that could have, you could have felt growing up is a distance between the silence and the distance and that, the disconnection and that. - It was probably almost a mutual disconnection 'cause there was a lot of sadness and just within myself and me knowing that they were also disappointed and quiet on the subject. Yeah, it's like a double whammy, it's a double disconnection. - Exactly. So it started with them though, because they're the ones as the parents who set up the dynamic where if you did something that triggered their fear and their disappointment, they would distance and then you would start to feel really bad about yourself and then the shame would cause you to distance. And that was a really bad awful place for you. And that's probably what, when you say, we get what is the worst off-kilter, I can't remember the exact term you used, but when you and Rachel get off-kilter, it's probably very similar feelings, right? She's disappointed. - Yeah. - And there's a disconnection and then maybe you pull away from that space also. And so what I wanna know is how did you make sense of yourself when your parents were disappointed in you? How did you make sense of that bad grade? What was it about you that was disappointing them? It was getting the bad grade to begin with. Not trying hard enough, not smart enough. Lazy, I don't know, all kids are gonna make sense of this in all different ways. - Yeah, it was all those things. It was, yeah, what that wasn't being engaged enough, smart enough, not going and saying the tutor, not doing the things that kind of avoided it. - So kind of like not measuring, not doing the work, not putting the work in, not. - And what kind of people, what kind of people don't put the work in? - Lazy ones. - What are lazy people? Are they unworthy or are they? - They're not gonna be successful. - Okay. And what's so bad about unsuccessful people just in this part of your mind, are they unworthy? Are they going to be accepted? Are they? - Yeah, it doesn't meet standards. And I mean, they're, they're gonna be a burden to somebody. - Okay. They're burdens, yeah. There we go. They're not gonna be able to take care of themselves and they're gonna have to have other people take care of them and their weak. And so do you see that as a child, just in this one little thing of getting a bad grade, it would take you here to, it's not just a bad grade, it's a bad grade that's going to trigger my parents and it's going to trigger them because the reason I'm getting this bad grade is because I'm not. working hard enough and the reason I'm not working hard enough is because maybe I'm just lazy and lazy people aren't going to be successful in the world. Right. Yeah. And they're actually after that they're going to actually be a burden. And then your little kid mind, you put this on your parents, you put this on them. Yeah. And one other just on this topic to you, one of the other things I've really played into that was my brother was that this everything just came easy for him. He was a straight eight- when I was a student and I couldn't even wouldn't even have to show up to school. Like everything was just so easy for him and it was like everything was so hard for me academically. That's where it was just like I felt like if I if I couldn't hit the bar something wrong with me. Yeah. Right. What does he have that I don't have? Right. Right. So it was. And it whatever the answer to that question was created, it's all going to circle back to this theme of incompetence of not working hard enough of however we have to get there unsuccessful. And it makes so much sense to me because your parents had a lot of fear about you being unsuccessful. Otherwise the grade wouldn't have mattered. Right. And there's not necessarily anything wrong with that fear. I mean, we all need to as parents hope and you know have some level of fear about our kids being successful in the world because that's part of parenting is to help them become successful. Right. It's what they were doing with that fear that wasn't so healthy. What they did with that fear is I think they you know somehow it turned into distancing from you. And it's interesting to think back on that and see how much they distance versus I distance from them in those in those dark places that I would take myself. Okay. So let's say you were distancing from them that we still have to assume you're distancing from a bad feeling. Right. And bad feeling is letting them down. Yeah. And I don't know how they communicated that to you. But somehow they did because you wouldn't have had to distance from that if it wasn't there. So maybe it was just not maybe it was just in what they weren't saying. Which would have been what? What would have helped you not have to feel all these bad things about yourself around that one grade? Basically what I've been you know them saying that it's okay. You know just understanding what's going on. I mean it's hard to think back you know that far but it's it's like having that reassurance that hey you may have missed the mark on this one but it's sure it's okay. This failure doesn't define you. Yeah. Yes we want to figure out and problem solve and figure out what caused this bad grade and what we need to do to help you in life. But this doesn't define you. Yeah. This doesn't make you you know a loser or unsuccessful or lazy or even if there's truth and needing to put more effort into that class or whatever it was there could be truth to all of that but the difference is it doesn't define you as a person. Yeah. Did you need to hear this doesn't define you you're still acceptable. You're still wonderful even when you get a bad grade. We still view you as successful. Yeah. I think there's also something here that that feels even bigger to me which is I think you needed to know that that bad grade didn't cause them to feel emotional pain. Yeah. What's interesting too is it's actually hard for me to even think back on instances where I may have disappointed them because it's like I naturally try and block that out in a weird way. Yeah you loved them so much that I don't I think it was just really really hard on you and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think it was just really really hard on you to think that you could do something to cause them to be scared or hurt or feel anything uncomfortable. Yeah. I think part of your motivation in life was to help keep them regulated because you just didn't want to hurt them. Yep. And I think really truly what you needed to hear was we can handle our fears we can handle our disappointment. You're a kid you don't have the power to ruin our day. Yeah. We care about you we want you to do well but it's not the end of the world for us. What would have been different if you would have heard that? When you got a bad grader you don't show up to the family party. I think there would have been you know a huge sense of just relief and calmness. It would let me know that you know the world's still okay it's not it's not shaken. No you don't have this enormous level of power over your parents emotions like you were given the message that you did. And so I want you right now I just want you you know to imagine this little boy you know in this place of distance in this place of shame alone in your room dealing with all of this on your own. And I want you just right now to go go back as your adult self and tell that little boy what he needed to hear. Which is you don't have the power over your parents emotions to the degree that you think you don't have to protect them they're strong they can handle their feelings. You're not going to make or break them. Is that what it would sound like? I would yeah I think that really okay that would have been a powerful message at that time yeah. Okay so I want you to tell I want you to put that into your words right now what that little boy you needed to hear that you would tell your little boy when your little boy fails. You know it would go back to just you saying that you know it's it's okay to not always get everything right it's okay to struggle you know a mirror to you know support you and you know it's it's this this doesn't define you this is a small piece and there's so many things about you that you are succeeding at and it's not basically don't you know yeah don't let this let it define you I mean it's no would you would you also maybe say I'm not going to fall apart if you don't do well yeah my my peace and joy in the world doesn't wholly depend on you performing at some level I can handle my own feelings with that of help too yeah so put that in your words so we can get really clear because this is going to all circle back to what you're needing from Rachel in these moments when it's triggered in the relationship I can handle my you know own emotions and just the discomfort and you know in these instances and it's you know you don't need to you don't need to protect me from the disappointment it's not disappointment yeah and even if there is some disappointment there I can handle that yeah I can be disappointed that's part of life right I'm not going to resent you because you know I can't get it my way all the time so I want you to just close your eyes and imagine that you go to this little boy and you're the parent and you say this you give a new message and just come back to me when you're ready and we'll see a bolder take that in yeah and how does it feel in your body right now to give yourself these new messages that even one other people are disappointed it's not going to destroy them yeah I mean it just feels good it's it's just having that sensory assurance it's it's powerful so now we need to just kind of bring this back into the relationship you know now now I need to know what you need to hear from Rachel just right here and now around those times. when she's disappointed because you guys want to do differently or whatever. What can she say right here and now that will help you? With the fear that her disappointment is going to take her so far away from you and she won't be able to deal with it. Yeah, I think it would be. I'd like to do something else and but I want you to know that we can. It's okay that I'm disappointed. I can handle that. And I just. I would want her to share where she's at but I just knowing that in her telling me that she can carry that disappointment and that it's okay. I think that would go a long ways. Okay, so I want you to ask her for that reassurance right now. Say, you know, what I really need right here and now to help me with this fear is I need some reassurance and then you put that into your words. Yeah, it would really help me with this fear. It's just reassurance that even though we may not disagree or whatever it is that causes disappointment that you can handle that and carry it not pull away from me and still maintain a connection. That we both are after. All right, Julie jumping back in this is a really great practical shift for them because Mike has spent his life trying to manage everyone else's feelings. He's terrified of Rachel being disappointed in him. It makes him like we talked last week. I want to go with the flow and abandon his own needs but here he's doing something different. This is the work. He's asking Rachel to reassure him that she can handle her own disappointment. He's finally putting down the impossible burden of trying to constantly manage her emotional state. All right, let's hop back and Rachel, you can go ahead and respond to that. Thank you for sharing that with me and I'm happy to work on that and provide the support that you need. Super helpful. It sounds like to me, Rachel, that what you're saying is, and I know it's tricky here because you have your own need on the other side of the equation. But I think that he's always worried about disappointing you. He's always worried about any moment that you would be disappointed. We need to get the relationship to a point where you aren't disappointed as often and not disappointed around these big fundamental issues. This isn't about, we need to help Rachel tolerate chronically being disappointed. That's not what this is about. But it is about recognizing that when two people come together, there are going to be situations in life where one of this is disappointed. It just is and he needs to know that you can handle your disappointed feelings and can you? Yeah, it's something I'm working on and probably a little bit better job at. Okay. I think the dynamic just makes it really difficult because it's hard to pick apart right now. Yeah. The bubble is so small. It's constantly an opportunity for this to happen. Sure. Right now, you're being overwhelmed with disappointment. Yeah, I mean because typically, you know, there have been very few times where we don't go with the flow. Very few times where me sharing. I'm going to pause you here. I don't want to go too deeply into that because there's a lot of stuff to be said here. What I just want to highlight right here now is that nobody is going to be able to survive an environment where they're just chronically being disappointed over and over and over again. The disappointment just keeps coming at them 90 miles an hour. That's what you guys have been doing in this cycle. By getting this cycle stabilized, we're going to dramatically decrease the times when you're, you know, disappoint right now. It's kind of like this whole dynamic is disappointing. But part of that work is getting Mike comfortable with disappointing people. Right? Yeah. Okay. And because the reason for that is because he received so many messages in life that we can't really handle our disappointment. You have as a child, you have a little too much power over our emotional well-being. Would I, I can't go to his mom and say, hey, listen, I need for you to start sending Mike some messages that you can deal with the disappointment if we don't show up to the party, right? But I can help you give him those messages. And I understand that we have to counterbalance that with creating an environment that's not so disappointing to begin with. But this is part of doing that. And so it's easier for me to have less disappointment around this stuff when he shares his heart. And I'm not wondering because then I feel like I don't have enough information. And that's disappointing. So like when he comes to me and can share openly, it already like lessons, you know, probably things I'm coming from with disappointment. If that means. Yeah. And that's part of, yeah, absolutely. That's part of the truth that emotional connection is really the healing here. Part of that connection is how are we going to navigate disappointment when it happens? And you're saying, look, what feels really good for me is when he comes to me and he talks to me about that. That helps me feel less disappointed. And we're getting there. And then on top of that, we need for him to know that you're ultimately a strong adult and you can handle these times when, you know, no matter how much work we've done, he wants to go to the party and you don't and you go. And it's hard to say that right now because you have so much pain around this. Exactly. But I think that there is a part of you also that recognizes we can work through. Yes, I've got some blocks. Yes, I do because this situation has been so incredibly painful. But you also recognize, I'm very open to us working through this. Absolutely. Because we both want to be. Yes. And so you are also on board with both of you being able to deal with disappointment. It's not just you. It's both of you. Right. We just happen to be talking about some of his fears around it right now. Right. And you need to know the same, you need to have the same reassurances. And when we do some deeper work with you, we'll get there. But what I think he needs to know right now is that, yes, I do have some blocks because of the cycle that we've been in. But I'm so open to making sure that you get messages in this relationship and the bigger picture that you're not wholly responsible for my feelings. I think that's really what this boils down to. Yeah. And so can you can you tell him that? Can you help me with those words again? Because my brain has itself. I know a lot. That's why we have to really slow this down and do repeated reps of it. But it's that yes, I have some blocks. But at the end of the day, you're not wholly responsible for my feelings. Yeah. Yeah. I've got some blocks to work through. But at the end of the day, you're not responsible for my feelings. And I will manage. And not not go away. It feels good to hear that. Thank you for sharing. All right. So it's not fully fleshed out and fully clear at this point. But let me just kind of bring this into a moment where it might show up in a cycle. Right? Let's say you guys are really stable and you know, you're feeling a lot safer with each other and Rachel, you generally know he's got my back, you know. If I really didn't want to go to this thing, then We, he can honor that or, but you have also done your part to let him know that you're going to meet him to in this place, right? And then on top of that, the family events feel safer to begin with because you guys have a tighter emotional connection. You're not so feeling so left alone in that environment. That's a big piece of it. But we still come upon one of those times when he's over here going, you know, this is so important to me and you're over here going, I really don't want to do this right now, but I'll do it. So I don't want him distancing from you in that place because he's so worried about letting you down. And so I need for him to be able to come to you and say, hey, listen, this is one of those moments. You know me, I start to feel like, you know, if I, if I disappoint you and we do this my way, then you're going to resent me and, you know, there's going to create all this distance for between us and take us off of kilter. Can I just get some reassurance that right now, you know, even though you're disappointed, you can do this and you know, we're not going to go to that distance place. And you're able to say, yes, absolutely, you know, I can be disappointed and I can handle that. It's not going to make me mad at you. And that will take the situation in a very different direction. And it doesn't even have to be around the family stuff. It can be around anything. And you may, Rachel, have already been capable of doing that and probably already have done a lot of that. But you've had to do more of it than than what is healthy to ask of you. And so again, a lot of the work over here is with Mike getting him at peace with letting people down. And again, in the cycle where that conversation doesn't happen, it will go into a bad place. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. Does this make sense to you, Mike? Yeah. No, it does. Okay. Yeah, I'd say it's the, yeah, the start of a lot of cycles historically. Yeah, we need, we need for you guys to have between the two of you a corrective emotional experience. Where there's more safety around other people's feelings. And really, when we, when we talk about, you know, this word, in measurement with your family, which is what we kind of started with. Is the enmeshment is feeling overly responsible for each other's feelings? It's a good way of putting it. Yeah. And I don't want to give you the message, Mike, that you're holy the problem here. It's just we are working on your side of the street right now on your emotional engagement work. Yeah, there's a lot of truth to it for sure. I recognize it. Our next step is Rachel to get into your stuff from, you know, the past that might be showing up in the relationship in ways that aren't so effective. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll go ahead and stop there. Okay. This is where we'll wrap up for today. You know, there's a lot of relief in the room when a couple finally gets on the same page for a long time. Mike thought he was just doing Rachel a favor by hiding his stress. He thought his poker face was protecting her. But as Rachel pointed out today, being shut out is actually much harder for her to deal with. She told him it's easier for me to have less disappointment around this stuff when he shares his heart. And I'm not wondering. You know, Mike is starting to see that Rachel doesn't need him to be perfectly stress free. She just needs him to be honest about where he is. So next week we'll continue working through these older childhood narratives to see how they're still shaping the marriage today. So this week's reflection, do you constantly hide your stress or do you go with the flow because you are afraid of burdening your partner? You know, this week try try sharing one small worry with them if you're used to just holding it all in, you know, something that you would normally handle alone and give them the chance to show up for you. That's a part of secure attachment is not just knowing your partner will be there for you, but knowing that they will invite you in. That is where connection lies. And as always, if you're enjoying this podcast, please leave us a five star rating on Spotify or Apple. A big thank you to Mike and Rachel. Thank you so much for sharing your truth and helping couples out there. And thank you to our audience for listening. So until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.