S3 | Session 13: Always Second Place: Fighting to Be Your Partner's Priority

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host Julie Manano. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm also a licensed clinical professional counselor and I'm author of the book Secure Love, Creative Relationship That Last, A Lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So we spent a lot of time this season unpacking Rachel's anger, especially how it flares up when she feels like she isn't Mike's prior. You know, we saw it a few episodes ago when he withheld the truth from her, which was not okay. And today we see it again when his loyalty to his family makes her feel like she's just second class citizen here. But what's really interesting about this session is that we get a clear look at how Rachel usually tries to handle that pain. She still can find herself going back into logic. You know, when she feels unprotected, she tries to present the evidence, hoping Mike will just rationally agree with her and you know, just kind of realize that it doesn't make sense to make your wife fall behind your family. And even if there's truth to that, just going into that logic place is kind of overriding the emotional dance of the situation and it isn't in and of itself won't get anywhere. Logic really doesn't heal attachment wounds. It can be part of the picture, but attachment wounds are emotional and we have to address those emotions. We have to get a yes answer to the question that couples are always asking each other, are you going to be there for me when I really need you and when there are attachment wounds lingering, that is not a clear yes in the nervous system. So today I ask Rachel to put the evidence away and just talk about the hurt and it's a really tough pivot for her to make. But when she does, Mike doesn't get defensive. He, his empathy system opens up and he's able to just listen partly because he's done his own work, dealing with his own fear in these situations, regulating it so he can be open. And it really gives both of them some much needed relief here. So let's go into our session. All right, well, how are you guys doing? - Good to end. - Yeah, I think doing good. It was, yeah, we had some, a little bit of time to talk class night. Yeah, it was. - I'm pretty pumped, Julie. He's jumped into this and he's all excited and (laughs) having good revelations and. - Okay, great. Even wanting to share and now I'm like, wait a minute, slow down. (laughs) Like share with. - Wow. So that just, I got a little nervous, but. - I'm sure that feels so, so good and relieving. - Yeah, yeah, definitely. - Well, let's keep going then. I know we, we're talking, you know, the way I like to do this is just to find something to take us into these deepest places. And typically, you know, it's going to be the same place regardless of how we get there. And, you know, just to let you know, I was thinking about, I was thinking about this today. I do this process of getting down to these deeper feelings with people like probably every single day because if I'm not doing it with a client, I'm helping one of my kids do it or myself. And so what I, my philosophy is is look, anytime you have a trigger, right? There's a little bit of fear. We don't have triggers without some scary thing attached to these triggers. And at that point, we're either going to do, you know, one of two things. We're either going to process it and kind of sit with it and not overwrite it and figure out what's going on so we can make a move with it that is healthy or we're going to just react to it. And in a way that probably isn't so healthy if that's the habit, right? And as you begin to get healthier, it doesn't, it just doesn't take as long. It's more like, oh, there's that thing. Let me, you know, you catch it faster and you don't have to spend, you know, as much time trying to kind of go there and feel it and get to know it. It just happens more quickly. And then I think you start to make better choices in life and you, because of that, it doesn't get triggered as much to begin with, you know? Not that that, there's only so much you can control in life. So sometimes you can't control what's going to come out. You can trigger you, but you can build as healthy as a life as possible. But so that's kind of what this work is about, just to put it into a bigger context. Like why are we sitting here doing this? And so I think I've mentioned to you, you know, my kids are still growing and they're still learning how to do their feelings and they're in, you know, middle school and high school. So they've got a lot coming at them. And so my goal with them is just to help them. Like not, you know, when these feelings come up, just like let's figure it out. Let's figure out what the healthiest thing to do here. So that's why we're doing this because, you know, those of us who didn't grow up in homes with parents who knew how to help them with these feelings, just, and so it just takes, you know, we kind of have to go back and get the reps and practice of it that we would have gone in childhood. Had someone been there holding our hands through it. So that's what we're doing. And now I want to kind of continue going with you there. So we talked a little bit last night about how our time with you seems to have gone pretty quickly. And so like I think we're just feeling like it makes sense to what you're doing, but without people, it's I feel like I'm floundering even last night 'cause we were talking something and he was like, what do you fear right now? And I'm like, I don't know. You know, so like I hit that point where it's like, yes, that makes sense. You're asking the right question, but I don't know what's underneath it all. - Yeah, you just need more reps. Yeah. - Yeah, this is just so foreign and it is, it is, you know, the great news is it's a very organized process. And once you get the rhythm of it, it just gets easier and easier, but it does take a lot of reps to get to the point where you can do it outside of here. So I do have more work to do with you Rachel. I just need to finish up over here with Mike. However, if you would rather have a break Mike, I can do some work with you Rachel today. - Yeah, either way. - Yeah, it does okay. - Yeah, whichever way you do your best. Well, at this point in the work, when you guys are out of cycles, and for the most part, you know, not perfect necessarily, then I really do want to put the bulk of my energy into you Mike with this, what we call with our re-engagement, which is just really getting you re-engaged with your emotions. - Okay. - And Rachel, you're saying to me, look, I need to do that too. And so we will. All right, so let's jump in then. So where we were going is we're talking about this, what we're going to call move in your cycle mic, which is your safe move when you start to get the fear and anxiety welling up around disappointing people, which goes to, you know, the scary place, this catastrophized place, and your move is go with the flow. That's where you've learned, okay, just kind of, do what they want me to do, say what they want me to say, keep everyone okay, and if everyone's okay, then I'm going to be okay. And again, there's not, that's not a bad thing. It's just that when it becomes, you know, an actual threat to your authenticity or the system fails and doesn't work so well because you have to go with the flow into opposite areas and someone's going to be disappointed no matter what, that's when it doesn't work. So yesterday where we ended was just kind of putting words to how this go with the flow has been keeping you safe. - But it's just what you've done. - Yeah, it's how I've protected myself. I know that was so. - And you asked me, basically we're asking me to join in going with the flow to make you feel safe. Yes, that's what it was. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, okay. And is that clear? Like do you understand how this all plays out, kind of mathematically almost? - Yeah, thinking back and yeah, just replaying those thoughts feelings and emotions in those times doesn't make sense. Yeah. - Okay, and so what is, if we just want to kind of map it out, what is something that will trigger this fear of disappointing people that you care about? What is something that, you know, in the future, you could say, oh yeah, that, if that situation happens, you know, that can take me there pretty quickly. It would be, it's always gonna be a situation where, you know, maybe Rachel or the family want to do different things. It's, and it's even as simple as, it's almost like a simple as somebody that's, you know, counting on something from you that you're not gonna, not gonna be able to deliver or, you know, not be able to do or it's a relatively the most impactful scenarios are always in the immediate family because the circle is so small. I mean, really it is. I mean, it's, but there's what's interesting is there's like, that's the most impactful stuff, but the same habits also go into kind of extended relationships, whether it's with somebody I don't really know or it's a professional relation, whatever that is, it's still, it's still there. It's not, it's not as impactful like I don't have those, you know, like feelings within my body, but it's like still it, it still steers my behavior. Sure. Is it possible that you do have those fears in your body? They just maybe aren't as strong. I think so. Yeah. Because what happens if you disappoint someone in a, like, a work situation? Yeah, I don't like it. It's, you know, tough conversations or it's always tough to have. I don't, you know, home-tons, I usually will avoid them or try and justify all the situations not that bad. You know, whatever it is and I think a lot of that. Okay. So, so what is, so you said what, what you do when these feelings come up in work is similar to what you do at home, which is you justify or you just try to avoid it, right? So if we just go back and let's start at the beginning here because remember, we always are going to start in the body. That's good. We're what's going to take us. Can you tell me what might come up when you think of having a really hard conversation with someone at work or, you know, you said can't deliver. So not being able to deliver. What comes up in your body just thinking about that? It's, it's like, I mean, like one of the, you know, examples without giving, you know, a lot of details at all would be like, you know, essentially letting somebody go or firing them, which I've done. It's like going into that situation like, like my palms are sweaty, like my heart's in. It's like, you know, it is okay. So right there's hold with me there. Just want you to sit there for a minute and sit with, you know, if I don't know if your heart is pounding right now, but anything that you feel coming up, just putting some words here, you have to go in and fire someone. Someone who you probably had at least somewhat of a good relationship with who is depending on you, who has a family to take care of. What comes up just as I say those words? Yeah, it's just a huge amount of uncomfortableness. Where is the uncomfortable? Just in in my chest and I don't know if I'm warm right now or not, but my palms are sweaty. Yeah. So that that is your nervous system right now. You, you, the sweat is coming out of your hands, right? Right. We're not making that up. Right. The fear is very, very real. You can call it anxiety if we want, but anxiety is the same. It's low level fear. They're still a fear. And so what is the fear here? What is your body afraid of when you have to do this? It's in a sense. It's like it's letting that person down. Okay. So here we are back at the same place, right? Letting the person down, disappointing. And there's no way around it. I mean, you are letting someone down when you fire them. There's no escape from that. It's something we have to do, but the empathy system that you have a lot of, doesn't want to hurt someone. And there's, that's a big piece of this is we just don't want to PC people suffer and we certainly don't want to be the reason that they're suffering. Right. Right. But then that that's over here. We don't need to address that. That's just going to happen no matter what, but let's address this part that is about you, right? What's going to happen? What are they going to think of you or how's this going to reflect on you if you let them down? Are you going to be the bad guy or are you going to be? Yeah. I mean, that's that's always the you know, underline because ultimately it's like in that instant, it's like, you know, I'm the one that made the decision and it's there's no other fall guy in the in the picture, you know, it's it's clear it's been it's it's something that has to be done. It was a decision that was made and what if you are the bad guy there? The fall guy. What is what is so bad about that for you? Where does that go? Where is that there's that just it? You just simply don't want to be the bad guy. That's that is the bad thing that can happen. Yeah. I mean, that's that's really there's not a lot of depth in that, especially, you know, it's a particular instance where there's absolute and good reason for what's being done. It's like it you just feel you just feel you feel you you don't feel let me put it this way. It's like you don't feel bad for the person professionally. You feel bad for them personally because you know it's going to impact their family. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to feel responsible for hurting their whole family. Right. Yeah. And I know that there's probably not all of you that takes that on, but there's there's enough that it's really uncomfortable. Do you trust that people can handle their pain around these things? Even not just in work, but your parents and Rachel, I mean, do you trust that they can deal with their own feelings of disappointment and there's there's absolutely always a piece of me that thinks they can't. And that's that's fear, you know, like we have the blow up, the yelling and I don't know I'm very rarely have I ever been yelled at I'd say, but it's like it's like the fear I it's like if someone's you know screaming at you yelling at you or whatever, but you know it's it's it's an interesting weird place and even thinking back I just I say that best like I I don't know that I can't really put my finger on a you know a time where I'll yell that or something like a real explosion in a relationship is it's almost like an imagined fear or a fabricated in a sense. I don't know how how much of it would actually ever be real. It's just I think if we really distilled this it's not so much the consequences of well we'll talk more about that but it we just the starting point is that there is a belief for you and a fear for you that people can't really do their own feelings. Yeah. Because I know that is there because you really go you work over time to protect people from their own feelings. It's an interesting way of putting it but yeah. Yeah. And so there's consequences to people not being able to do their own feelings right there's one they're going to suffer and two those feelings then might get acted out on you in both are real. We love people and we don't want the people that we love to suffer and we don't want to be on the other side of their bad feelings if they don't know how to you know handle them whether you know you're saying look I don't really have a lot of reason to believe that I've been yelled at but there's still something around that or I'm going to get yelled at but but we do know that you don't want those texts that come through that say never mind will be fine that are that have that kind of passive aggressive tone to them right yeah because that is a direct result of someone not knowing how to do their own feelings in a healthy way what's a healthy way to deal we let's just say your parents you know if if they're disappointed that you can't come and they're kind of confused about why what's a healthy way for them to to approach you with that you might not know the answer but I'm going to ask it anyway I'll help walk you through it I don't know that I do know the answer okay well let's just say this they're dealing with their own fear of you not coming to the event something about that is threatening to them and so let's just kind of assume that you know one of the common things I might see with that is are we not important anyway more. Do we not have control here? If we don't have control over what you guys do, then is the world going to spin out into chaos? You know, these things go really deep, right? So clearly, it's about some sort of control for them. And so the healthy thing for them to do is to get clear about their own fears and be able to go, hmm, what is so, I mean, this, what is so triggering about my conracial not not wanting to come? Like, why is that causing me so distress? Let me do some exploration around that because I don't want to send them the messages that they don't have free will, you know? And then maybe they come to you and they say, hey, listen, you know, we do get, we do get a little anxious when you guys don't want to come and some of that's our stuff. And, you know, do you see how I'm just like opening up a conversation for, you know, really connecting and talking through these things, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so they don't do that because they really don't know how nobody ever taught them how. So what they do is they act out in these passive aggressive texts. That's their way of trying to get your attention. It's their way of trying to ask for help when they don't know how to ask for help. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, go ahead. Yeah. And that makes makes complete sense. It'd be like, yeah, just them in a way, sharing their attachment need and it not being met. Yes. Okay. Exactly. There's an unmet need for them in that interaction. They don't have words for it. They don't know what to do with it. Yeah. Okay. That makes, makes lost sense. Yeah. And all of these things are rooted in just, you know, lack of clarity around what's really going on and how can we, you know, once we know what's going on, it's it's much easier to manage it. These feelings and talk about them and, you know, if your parents came to both of you and said, we just really scared. We would change everything. Yeah. It would be super vulnerable. Yeah. It would be vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. And it would be awkward at first. But then you got it. It's so much better than these games. Right. That people are just trying to work around. And, you know, so anyway, the point is this is the assumption and the story I just told is that your parents don't know how to do their painful feelings. Yeah. What's it like to to recognize that you haven't your whole life been able to trust that they can do their own feelings? Yeah. In a sense, it's almost a good feeling to make sense of it. Yeah. I think it just really helps me to understand the dynamics so much better. Yeah. So how did you, since you have had to see your parents struggle in these certain areas with their emotions and not know how to help themselves? What have you learned to do to help them? Going with the flow. I'd be making sure they don't have to have those feelings. Exactly. It's not even a thing. Yeah. Somewhere along the way in life, you know, from a young age before you even had no idea this was happening. You learned that to help mom and dad to protect them from her, you just go with the flow. And a lot of times it works. Yeah. Until until it doesn't. Right. Right. Sometimes it's okay to go with the flow. It's not bad. It's just we need to be able to do it with intention when it works for us. And we need to be able to say, I can't go with the flow this time. And here's why when it doesn't work for us, you haven't had that freedom. And when you do do that, when you send those messages, then they get reactive. And then they you know, pass the ball back over with the with the text. What I want you to do is I want you to tell Rachel this right now, which is that, you know, I learned that early on that I had to, you know, help my my parents with their feelings by going with the flow. That's how I protected them from what they weren't able to do on their own. Yeah. Early on, they had to grow with the flow with my parents just make sure that those feelings weren't there for them and protect them. So how is it to put some words to it? It feels good. I mean, it's there's definite truth there. It's just, oh, it's played out, you know, a lot a lot of it, you know, probably unintentionally, but it's absolutely the way it has impacted me. Yeah, mostly unintentionally. Yeah. Like I said, these things happen so fast. We don't even have time to think we get in these patterns and they just become such a norm. And then, you know, Rachel comes along and it's stir it, it shakes up the system and it's scary. Yeah, the flow is, you know, and sometimes it's, when it was just me, it was very rare that the flow would be interrupted, right? It's easy. When you have somebody else in the picture, it's like, yeah, there's it's a different perspective. It's a new, it's a, it's the flow. My one, I'm the only one that did. Yeah. Yeah. How is it for you, Rachel, to hear and put some words to this? It's good that he's able to recognize it and see it's really hard to know that he's carried it. Yeah, for so long. And that's what was hard is again, it's like, I've had these observations and tried to talk about it, but he couldn't see it. Sometimes it's really hard to see it when we're in it. Yeah. And when there's so much fear around it and it's our safe, safe way to do things, you know. So is your, am I hearing that your empathy system is opening? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's hard to know and watch it play out to where he hasn't been given the freedom to be himself and do what he wants for a majority of his life because he's been concerned with everybody else and not himself. All right. Well, let's, let's just kind of organize this before we go back in. You know, we started with how this shows up at work, just not even in the family system. And then it occurred to me that you do somewhere in that conversation. It occurred to me that yeah, you don't, you don't have trust that people can handle their pain in a healthy way. And so you have developed disbelief that you are responsible for helping people not hurt. And you know, the way that you've managed that, people manage that feeling of being responsible for others, feelings in many different ways. Some people just run away from it all together and don't go into relationships because they don't want that pressure. But for you, your go-to has been, we'll just go with the flow and protect people from hurting. It's really simple and you're really good at that. Become really good at that. Yeah. And but sometimes these strategies don't work so well. And when they don't work so well is when they're taking a toll on us as an individual and our own ability to be authentic in the world. And then when they, we have competing attachments. What you're used to doing with that is we don't, you know, not putting words to it, not seeing it. I'm just creating a new pattern here, which is getting some awareness around it. So when this stuff does get triggered, you have access to sorting through it, seeing what's really happening and doing something new there, which is scary. I won't lie. I mean, it is scary to do new things with these feelings, but it gets easier with time. But so I just instead of, you know, the old cycle where we weren't talking about this and you just kept going with the flow, I had you do something new, which is talking to Rachel about it. And that instead of disconnecting the two of you, it actually helped you guys feel connected. You connected over it instead of disconnecting over it. Yeah. I really like the way that you've explained that whole dynamic with basically me, you know, feeling like I'm responsible for people's emotions because that really nails it. I mean, it's too short of a truth to that. Yeah, you didn't, you know, that's why kids really need to feel safe in the world. Parents who we're called wiser and stronger, because if kids don't perceive their parents as wiser and stronger, then they want to come in and fill in the gaps and try to, you know, try to protect their parents. And it's, you know, it's out of love, but it's also out of kids need to have safe. parents to feel safe themselves. So for all the parents out there, do you ever find yourself struggling to connect with your child during tough moments? I know that I used to. So we offer an intimate four week parenting group designed to help you break these reactive cycles and respond to tantrums and shutdowns in a way that can really foster connection. It's actually these moments, these tough moments that create the most growth opportunity for your child and your relationship with your child and you. So it's not just another generic class. It's a small group with personalized coaching and you can learn more in the podcast description or at thesecurerelationship.com. So it's out of love and survival. So my question for you is when do you remember this starting? Like when do you remember a time in life? And you might not. Some people don't have memories of these patterns getting going. But do you have any memories of feeling like, oh, I've got a, you know, dad, I know your dad was very avoidant. But maybe he showed some sign of distress or mom or some feeling that you have to jump in and take care. - A huge piece of that was, and I had mentioned it to you, Julia, this was when my grandpa passed away. That was, you know, it was at a young age and, you know, it was just a lot going on at that time. And that's probably when it really came in, I would say, and just, it probably was a little bit before that. But that's probably what really solidified it, I would say. - Okay, there's a few questions I have there to get a little more clear there. But let me ask you something that just kind of popped in my mind. If I remember correctly, you didn't really, your grandpa kind of had your back, right? He, you weren't so worried about taking care of him emotionally. - Yeah, no, there was no, there was no emotional, I don't wanna say connection, but just, maybe that is the right word. - Well, what I mean, what I mean more is like, you could be a little maybe more authentic with him. Like you didn't have to worry about hurting his feelings or you didn't have to worry about saying no to him about something, I'm fishing around. - Yeah, no, it would have been kind of the opposite. It was probably, I was probably one of the main figures in my life where it was constant drive for success to make him happy because it was high expectations, really, really, really high expectations for young kids. - Yeah, but a weird sense of connection in that because it's, when we did it, right, we got praise for it. It was like, yeah, so it's, - So when it worked, it felt really good, but did it come with some anxiety? - Yeah. - Okay. All right, I might wanna go back to that. Right now, I wanna stick, so we don't get off topic here. I wanna stick with, when any moment you remember like a pressure to keep your parents happy by doing something maybe you didn't wanna do or going with the flow. We know it, it happens now, but somewhere you learned it, somewhere you learned to do it, that you're still doing it now. - I think, you know, trying to think back three different times, it's, - I wonder if it didn't, it didn't become apparent to you until you met Rachel 'cause it didn't, it just didn't come up consciously. That was the first time it had ever really been challenged. - I think there was a really big piece of that, yeah. - Okay. - Okay, did you ever feel like you had to stifle yourself? Or say yes when you met No or No when you met Yes? - I mean, I know there was times for sure, but it really wasn't even really conscious 'cause I needed expectation, did that make sense? It's not anything that I would consciously challenge. It's just the expectation, and it kinda goes into what I had said, you know, previously it's like a lot of this whole concept of unspoken expectations, and I think I actually have higher expectations for myself than anybody else. And it's, you know, part of what's interesting about this behavior is that it is also what has, and still a lot of drive in me to succeed at things. Yeah, but it's, you know, it's also got these adverse effects. Or, you know, whatever you wanna call them. - Some strings attached. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Do you think that's what we do when I said that? - I think there was a lot of it, like, where I eat my emotions and things like that as a kid. - So here's where we're going to find the answers. You know, what you're telling me right now is that it wasn't safe to bring emotions to them, and either it wasn't safe because they wouldn't know it to do with it or it wouldn't matter, or you weren't taught how, but you told me that when you were getting bullied at school and you came and talked to them about those, in your way of talking about those feelings, their response was move you away from the hurt. - Yeah. - Right? Nobody was leaning into that hurt. And so in that, you have to get the message that they can't handle the hurt, because if they could handle the hurt, they would be with you in the hurt. It's not with words. This is very unconscious. It's subconscious, whatever the word is, but they weren't able to stay with you in the hurt, meaning they couldn't tolerate the hurt with you. - Yeah. Yeah, I think that's accurate, 'cause even from my dad, he had a very similar bullied upbringing as well. - Okay. - And yeah, not. - So is it safe to say that you learned to protect them from your bad feelings? - Yeah, it's like not wanting to stir those emotions within them. - Yes. Okay, so if you're projecting your parents from your bad feelings, you don't have a place to go with your bad feelings, 'cause it's just gonna trigger them and make them upset. You don't wanna do that. So then you're left with nobody to help you with your feelings, 'cause we rely on parents when we're young, that's our people, right? And so what did you have to do? You used food as a coping mechanism. So you had two coping mechanisms. One is just hold it all in, but if I hold it all in, I've gotta do something with it. So I'm gonna kinda help myself feel better with distraction, which for you is food and working and success. None of, you know, it's super obvious that food isn't a bad thing because we need meat, but it can be used as a coping mechanism, and it's nothing, same thing with work and success. It's a good thing, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just when we're using it as a coping mechanism and not dealing with our feelings in other ways that it can become a problem. Then another way is going with the flow. Just don't rock the boat. - Yeah, that's the one I probably latched onto the most. - So I want you to just, you know, just close your eyes right now and see if you can just imagine you're seeing a kid and coming home from school and having had bad experiences, enticed and mistreated and humiliated. What did you do? Can you imagine just like, what are you doing in this image, this story? Are you getting some cookies at your mom made? Do you mention cookies? Are you watching TV? Like what's going on? - It's coming home and my mom being a stay-at-home mom, she was always there for comfort, always in the kitchen. Wanted to learn about our day and have snacks, whatever, it was just, it was a very, very comfortable place. You escape just being in that environment, you escape all the hurts and incidents. So how nice is it that you had that safe haven to come home to? I mean, how sad would it be for a child to have to go through that and then not have that environment to go home to? That's heartbreaking. - That is, that is. - Yeah. So I just want you maybe right now, just as your adult self, to just go into that house and go to your mom and just say, thank you so much for providing this warmth for me to come home to. really, really important. She did that for you. So can you just close your eyes and just go tell her, thank you? Just she may have not realized even how much you needed it, you know. And just open your eyes and come back to me when you're ready. Yeah. How does it feel just to go say thank you mom? It sounds good. That's. Yeah. She deserves that. What's coming up for you right now just to do that? It's calming to even just think back to those times just because it was, it's hard wired in me. It was my comfortable place. I mean it was just really what can I kept it all together. Well it makes a lot of sense to me that you have this longing to be close to your family. You know that's like you said earlier it's where your body feels the safest on the calmness. And the other piece here is that you didn't learn how to do those feelings on your own. You had the co-regulation, it's beautiful but if we just wanted to add one more little piece to this puzzle it's going to help you also be able to do those feelings on your own. And I don't mean by you know numbing them and those things you know I mean by being able to tap in and go oh you know what's going on. What's this pain like and inviting someone in and having people go in and actually just enjoy you, I'm sorry just join you in the pain and get some of that grief out around those hurts. So if you if you do come home and you know you have this warm lovely comforting house to come home to, if you would have had space to more directly talk about your feelings what would that have sounded like? What would you have talked about after this bad day of school at school? It would have been me sharing what actually happened at school you know it would have been me actually sharing what happened you know how I was feeling all those things that I tried so hard to avoid talking about. And if you did do that, if you did sit with your mom and say hey this happened my feelings are really hurt it's embarrassing I'm in cried and what do you think the response would have been? Or what was the response let's put it that way? Yeah I think she always did the best to comfort me and other and it was always you know kind of like we've said what's what's the quickest way to make this go away and and you know it was it was it was always too you know my mom was very protective and she was you know she would let me know say you know do I need to go down to the school that you know who is this dead and you know all that? So before we get there to the problem-solving approach and the resilience building approach it's nice to just lean into those feelings and be with the grief in it you know as if someone died right? It's so obvious when there's a real death and a real loss of a human and it's so obvious that we don't try to talk someone out of hurting but it's not so obvious when it's these little things throughout you know the day what you were really needing what I'm getting to is you were really needing just first that part about just leaning in and hurting with you and since your mom couldn't do that because she didn't know how and she just went right into talking you out of hurting or what can I do to prevent this from happening again? What did you learn about her ability to hold your pain and just be with it with you? She couldn't know it. Yeah so what did you learn to do with your pain? Stuff it, avoid it. Yeah. Yeah so you not only learned that you have to do the same thing with your pain that your mom does with your pain which is move away from it let's you know go and figure out how to just prevent it from happening either by thinking different or problems all the mistrituation and then you also had to learn to protect her from hurting with you. So at some point you just not talking about it right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get into that kind of junior high high school kind of mindset you kind of a little bit pull away from your parents and then you sit with it you know at least I did I stuffed it you know that was and then it and then for me it just doing what I knew how to do was it was problem solving and that was lose a lot of weight it was be successful it looked all those things. What I've learned from having my own middle school high school kids is that they don't stop needing support they actually just give up asking for it if they stop asking for it. They give up they realize there's no other what's the point they learn other ways to deal with it does that make sense? It really does yeah. So what we're learning is you you did still need it and you would have asked you would have continued to ask for it and talk about your and asking isn't so much saying I need help it's just a felt sense of knowing I can go talk about these feelings and someone will be there to sit with me and walk through them with me and just be there. Yeah, you did still need it I guess what it is is that kids in middle school and as they get into high school they get more capable of finding other ways to get help. Some kids you know lean into achieving some lean into substances some lean into just you know like you said problem solving approaches figure out how to lose the way you know because you can now because you're older and can seek out information and and those are all strengths and resilience as but they're missing that piece of being with the emotions. Yeah. I think the the word the phrase that's coming into my mind over and over right now is just this global way of learning to do feelings for you has been protecting from instead of leaning in and you've learned to do it with you and you've learned to do it with other people protect people from hurting. Yeah it's it's absolutely the constant theme. And the way that it shows up in this cycle is that how you've learned to keep the peace with your family to keep your parents okay and to keep your you know your comfort zone okay right. If your parents aren't okay you don't have that comfortable home to go to. Right. The wonder that's such a big threat is really hitting me right now. You know some people can just say well I can't keep my parents happy but I'll survive but when you have this actually like wonderful beautiful comfort comforting place to go home to you lose that if your parents aren't okay with you. Yeah. That's hard. Yeah it's not I mean they have a lot to offer right. They have a lot to offer you what happens to you when I say that they have a lot to offer. It's not easy to walk away from. Just clear to me how much I relied on that for so many years. And just that space. Do you've really you know you're protecting a lot here but one of the things you're protecting is that space that's safe space and the problem with that is you don't have the safe space in your own body just yet. That has been your co-regulated and then life is that safe space. So I want you to share that with Rachel which is that has been that that comforting environment that my parents have created their whole lives has been my co-regulation. That safe space my parents have created for so many years has been my place for co-regulation and just it's giving me the ability to deal what I couldn't do it myself. So do you see how that shows up in the cycle between the two of you? Yeah. I think it explains things, why the, you know, with me not knowing how to process the emotions, that place has been, it's why they're such a strong pool there. Yeah. Yeah. And won't it be nice when you still get to have that as a comfortable place, but you don't have to rely on it to do your feelings for you? Yeah. It's like the, you know, the difference between using food as a way to be healthy and enjoy life as opposed to a way to just use it to escape our feelings, right? It's not one or the other. I mean, I'm sorry, it's not either you have food or you don't have food. You don't have your parents as a safe haven in that home as a safe haven, that family connection as a safe haven, or you, you know, have to lean into it so heavily that if anything comes along in threatens that it puts your nervous system into a state of fear because you don't, you've been wired to have that as your safety mechanism, right? But then the problem is is that interferes with your safety with your wife and then that causes you another problem. Right. Right. Rachel has this all hitting you. It's understandable for sure. What's coming up emotionally? I think I've had a variety of emotions as I've listened to him work through it. Okay. Just sadness and heaviness for everything he's done to insulate himself and others and how lonely and hard it must have been to deal with such heavy things and just like stuff that. I mean, there's a lot of energy and in bearing all that stuff. It's scary and hard to admit that I have a lot of anger for how it's impacted us. I kind of expected that. Yeah. And the control that it's. It's just like a, to me, it's felt like a cloud hanging the entire marriage and it's hard as a wife to not be the safe space. Right. Right. And like not even have a chance to be. So this is a point where we need to go and help that anger right now. Instead of judging it and, you know, I'm trying to push it away. It has something incredibly important to say. So Mike, are you okay with me kind of pausing your work and going over here and figuring out how to integrate all of this experience in? So this anger doesn't have to show up in cycles in ways that disconnect the two of you. Yeah. No, definitely. Okay. All right. So let me just start here with you Rachel. How do you feel about this anger that you're carrying right now? Is there some shame around the anger like you shouldn't be feeling it this or shouldn't be making it about me or something like that? Yeah, that's that's a seem route the relationship as I've always just felt a lot of shame around it. Okay. I do feel a little bit justified because I've seen the dynamics, but it was again, I like we've talked about before. It's like I get to this point where I just feel crazy because I feel like the only one who sees it differently. And we feel justified for our anger, but we don't express it in a healthy way because we also feel like we shouldn't have it. It will come out sideways and big later. That's accurate. The justification part will find a voice, but the doubt prevents us from using that voice in a healthy way. Does that make sense? Yeah. That's accurate. I'm sure. How has this anger been coming out? In the cycle. And to early on, it was big and loud protests for sure. So we're going to have to figure out a way to get this anger into health. I don't know if that's healthy assertion or where we'll go with it, but we first need to understand where you got this message that anger is necessarily a threat. It has to be a threat, right? That's a good question. I don't know. I don't know where that comes from. Okay. Well, let's do something different than let's start smaller here. As you're hearing him talk, what is the information, the piece of information that comes out of his mouth that you can really say, wow, that's when my nervous system kind of went into that angry place, which part of what he was saying was really triggering, I guess, for lack of better work. Good question, because it was earlier on in the discussion with him, but I think it was probably around his, it's kind of hard to explain because he's explaining it as like his whole life. It's felt like this and I see it as like an adult doing it. And so I get angry that today he's still doing all this work to protect his mom from her feelings and leaves me. Okay. All right. So then this is a really important here. We're going to start with the trigger, right? He's still protecting his mom. It's not just right here and now that's triggering when you get this message. It's every time it happens outside of here. Yeah. Okay. And you know it's going on. If it haven't had maybe the most perfect words or sometimes you have your body knows that that's what's going on is he's protecting his mom. And he actually is. That's not do something you're making up. There's really good reasons for it. He has found in at the end of the day he's protecting his own emotional safety and in that there is also protection for you in this twisted up way, right? But it doesn't matter because right now we're just dealing with the trigger. He's protecting his mom and what is the unmet attachment need there? Would you need to know to feel safe and close to him? They consider me and will protect me. That would be my ideal. Yeah. You want to know that you're the priority here. Yeah. To me it seems like that would be the kind of the natural order of things that our partner would become the priority. I don't know that there's any partner out there that wouldn't want to be the priority. And I don't mean like every single thing I have to do for my partner and I'm just going to neglect everything else in my life. You know I don't mean that, right? You want to know he's able to step back and say my mom can emotionally handle her own emotions and it's not my role as a son to emotionally support my mom in the same way it's my role as a husband emotionally support my wife. Am I getting that? Exactly. Okay. And I'm guessing Mike that you actually agree with that? Yeah, I do. Yeah. It's just your fears can kind of come and get in the way of that. And we haven't had a lot of clarity around what this is kind of at the root of it or having even, you know, up in the list one, I haven't even had the awareness on why I was doing what I was doing. Right. We haven't been able to name it as maybe you've been prioritizing your mom's feelings because you didn't even know you were doing that. And you're needing to be conflicting because you're over here going, okay, I've got to go at the flow to protect my mom's feelings so I can feel safe. But Rachel's not helping me do that. So now she's not showing up for my feelings. And then the process, you know, really kind of note, not either of you are getting your feelings tended to by each other because of the cycle. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not it, you know, it, both of you are feeling alone from each other. If you need more help. So I guess if I'm just going to get this more clear on your end, Mike, this is something that you cognitively agree with other than this, the fears that come in around this, you know, all this childhood stuff. But you really do want your wife to feel like the, your emotional priority here. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's the goal. All right. So I just want you just, well, actually, I'm not going to have you say that. I'm going to pause that and I'm going to go back over here, Rachel. So I just want to again, you know, just get really clear about this unmet attachment leads in. in this moment, in these moments when you get the message she's protecting as mom, is your body goes to unmet attachment need ban, I'm not the priority. And then what happens in your body there? - Again, it's kind of shifted over time, but it had been just the super anxious, tight chest, heart racing, desired a flee from the situation. And now there's a bit of a numbness that just shows up like here I am again. And if you weren't, yeah, if you weren't numb, what would you have to be feeling? If you didn't go numb, the pain of feeling alone and like I'm last on the list again. - Yeah, and the sadness in that. - And is that what those tears are saying right now? - Yeah. - So when this, in this cycle, you know, now we're in numb, we used to be more in that visceral feeling of tightness in the anxious place, but that's when the anger would come up, right? And it even came up here and now in this session. - Yeah. - And just to, you know, say again, anybody's gonna be angry when they don't have their needs met from their partner and they don't feel like, hey, I'm at the top of the list here. I've given you my life where we're walking through this all together, like I have to know I'm at the top of the list to feel safe and close. And anybody's gonna feel angry there. And what is that anger, you know, what's the hope in the anger there? Or let me ask that in a different way, what is the anger urging you to do when you feel it? What is it urge you to do? Because anger says take action. - Try to get him to see me. - And what are the words, what would those words sound like that you would use to try to just get him to see? - Explaining how, in whatever instance it was, how it was playing out to where his behaviors and choices were making them the priority. - Okay. - So describe the problem, show the evidence, kind of the thing. - Yeah, 'cause to me it's logical and like makes a lot of sense. It's pretty clear. - Right. That was your way of, you know, getting him to see the problem because if you can get him to see the problem and you know, buy into that logically, then what is he going to do differently? - Really is that it doesn't make sense to make your way fall behind your family. (laughs) - Right. All right, Julie jumping in here. So I wanna point this out because it's such a common trap for anxious partners. You know, we've seen Rachel protest before, but notice how she does it here. She feels a lot of emotional pain. But instead of sharing the pain, she shares a logical argument. She thinks if she can just build a strong enough case, Mike will just change his behavior and she'll finally feel safe. And the problem is arguing the facts, almost always triggers the avoidant partner's fear of failure. And when I say arguing the facts, I mean doing that prematurely before we get to a safe place to present those facts. So to actually shift this dynamic, we have to pause the facts and start talking about the fear. And often when we talk about the fear and we connect in that way, we don't even have to rely and lean in so heavily to the facts to begin with because those emotional issues are getting resolved and the facts aren't having to carry all of that weight. All right, well let's see how this plays out. And then he'll change and he'll go, oh, okay, you're right. And he will, you know, and listen, sometimes that approach might work sometimes, but it wasn't working here, right? But the goal was get him to see so he'll change and then how are you going to feel if he changes? Safe. Safe. Yes. Safe and close. So how often, so what I'm guessing here is that we've done two things with this anger as it wells up. Remember, the trigger is a message, you're not the priority. Then there's pain and then the pain turns into anger. That says do something, take action. And it sounds to me like you've been doing one of two things with the anger either just kind of trying to stuff it away and numb it out. That's your latest strategy or protest and try to get him to see it, try to put the facts out there. When do you ever say, it hurts too much to not feel like a priority and I just can't feel safe and close. If I don't know that I'm the priority here, I have voiced that within the past, I don't know, six months maybe. Sorry, I'm gonna go there. And he hasn't been able to really do anything with that because he don't really know what was going on, right? Right. Okay. But right here and now, the anger is in the room, it showed up. So we're gonna do that with it right now. We're gonna turn it into a healthy assertion because I think what would have happened had I not leaned into it, maybe, and I don't know because I know that you're really 100% invested in being authentic and sharing with me, all the triggers in here. But it could be that you would just kind of put that to the side and say, oh, he's doing all this good work. I shouldn't, I shouldn't bring that in, right? Yeah. Yeah. But then what would have happened with that anger? What happens when we turn off this session and go about your life, where is that anger gonna go? It stays there until the next time it gets hoped. Exactly. So this time we're gonna do something new and we're gonna say, look, this does not take away from anything that you're doing. There's so much safety in what you're doing right now, but yes, there still is some, you know, this need to let you know that I can't feel safe and close. I'll never feel safe and close. If I don't know that I'm the priority to you. And I haven't known that and it's been really hard. Can you just share that with him in your words? Definitely doesn't take away from the work you're doing. And at the same time, I am feeling the anger rise up, because historically I haven't known that I'm a priority and it's really painful and it's very hard to be open and connected and feel safe when I don't feel like a priority. Okay, and how is it to share that? Scary, like my heart's ringing. Okay, so let me go over here. Well, okay, let me ask you this. So I think probably the scary is, is this safe? Is this okay? How's this gonna land? Is this gonna cause him to not want to do any more work or put words to this? Okay, but then is there a part of you though that is there's something good coming from just speaking your truth or anything good that might be coming from this? Yeah, all of that just happened in that second. Okay, okay, so let me go over and check this out. Mike, are you able to hold this or is this feeling triggering for you? Does this make sense to you? Yeah, no, I can honestly say I think I can hold it. It feels really good to have her not stuff that anger and share it be vulnerable and open up to me and let, and just to let you know where she's at. Okay, Julie Hopping back in. So this is a really solid step forward for Mike. Usually when Rachel brings her frustration to him, his nervous system reads it as alarm bell failure and that takes over and he shuts down or just tries to justify his way out of it. That's what he's learned to do. Trying to unwire that. But because Rachel changed her delivery today, bringing her anger to him as vulnerability rather than a criticism, he doesn't freeze, he holds it. And it's a great example of how changing our delivery completely changes how our partner receives that message. And of course, they have their work to do to be responsive to that message. Okay, let's go back in. Okay, good. So I can, I don't dismiss all the emotions that we just talked about, but I also fully can, starting this with this way, starting to see how that's impacted Rachel and just, you know, what, how she's processing it is. Okay. Okay, beautiful. So I just want you to say, I see your anger. It makes sense. to me and I can handle it. Yeah, I see. Yeah, I see your anger and it makes complete sense, you know, just how everything's played out and I can handle it. And when she doesn't be able to bring that to me, I just be open. So what does that do, Rachel, to hear him lean into it and validate it? It feels good. And you know, that split second, and I want to be able to trust it. Okay. You want to be able to trust that what, that he's not going to use this against you or that we will get the change that we're needing or yeah, that will get the change that we're needing because I mean, he tells me pretty regularly like I want you to be able to share it with me. So you're saying, look, these words feel nice, the validation feels nice, but like we've been saying, you know, in our past sessions is that you're needing less right now the words and more the felt sense going forward of being in priority, right? That's what this anger is really needing to heal, right? Okay. Yeah. And so I just want you to share that. The words, the words are important. It's the combination, the words and that. So I want it, I want you to share that with him that it's like, look, what you, you were just doing it. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Well, I mean, it, it feels really good for you to validate and see that I think maybe you just see it with a different lens now and more of an open heart. That was really good. Yeah, I definitely do see it differently. I see it. You know, just understanding my own emotions better. Yeah, because you didn't, you didn't have this part here, Rachel, and you know, my nervous system to really heal this. I've got to have repeated experiences of something new going forward. I need you to say that, right? So yeah, and for my nervous system to calm down, then just have no experiences to give me the felt sense of safety and trust that we're doing it new and different. And Mike, does that make sense to you? Yeah. It does. Okay. All right. Well, we'll go ahead and and stop there. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of our hour here. So what I really appreciate about this session is how grounded it is. You know, healing a relationship isn't usually ever a single magical light bulb moment. It's a process and it is about putting in the reps, you know, taking a trigger and over and over and over again, processing these triggers and learning how to do them in new ways, to do these triggers and new ways that invites each other and and helps us be open to each other instead of just going into that, you know, stuck negative cycle. So when Mike validated Rachel's pain today, it was a great moment, but Rachel rightly pointed out that while those words are nice, what her nervous system is needing on top of that is to trust him. She's needing not just these moments in the sessions, but repeated experiences of something new going forward outside of here. It doesn't work if we're not translating that work or transferring that work outside of session. So that's the reality of couples therapy is you have the breakthroughs in the room. You get the skills, but the actual healing expands when you go home and choose to use this work to respond differently the next day and the next day after that. And when you fail each other like you and have evidently will, you're able to use the work to then catch ourselves and make repairs. So next week, think about how you handle conflict with your partner as your reflection this week. When you feel disconnected, do you build a logical argument to just prove why they're wrong or are you willing to drop the evidence and simply say, I'm hurting right now and I need to feel important to you. If you found value in today's session, please leave us a five star rating on Apple or Spotify. And again, I want to thank Mike and Rachel for their bravery and thank you, our audience for listening. So until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.