S3 Episode 3: Being a possibilist with Gitanjali Trevorrow-Seymour

And then when I realized how the mind works and how we actually create our reality and that feeling comes from thinking, I'm not only that, that feeling only glasses on was a thought. Hello and welcome to the Medical Women Podcast, the podcast through the Medical Women's Federation, the largest body of women doctors in the UK. I'm Dr. Nathan O'Brien, I'm the Vice President of MWF and I have the honour and joy of being your host. As each week we hear from wonderful guests to help you feel more empowered and confident on your medical career journey. Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Medical Women Podcast, 'Appe Valentine's Day'. So this season, as you know, is all about exploring possibilities and this week's guest is Gytangely Travorisima, who is a leadership and executive coach. And as you'll hear in the episode, Gytangely describes herself as a possibleist, so that makes her a perfect guest for for the series. During the episode, we speak about Gytangely's take on confidence and what she describes as the 'con of confidence' and we also touch on imposter syndrome, various other aspects of leadership and development. So I hope you really enjoy the episode and you find it really helpful. As always, it's always wonderful to hear your feedback and your reviews, so please do get in touch and let us know what your thoughts are on season 3, any guests that you would like to suggest or any topics that you think we should definitely cover. I also wanted to say it was really lovely to meet some of you in person and virtually at our MWF RSM evening last night, which was all on the topic of inequalities past, present and future. It was a really great event and I look forward to seeing you all at future events that we organized. I'll of course keep you posted on things that we've got coming up. But there being time, I hope you enjoy this episode and I will see you again next week. So it's lovely to have with me today, Gatangeli Trevoro Simo, hi Gatangeli, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thanks Nathan, I love you to be here with you. Oh, it's lovely to have you and could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Sure, well, I am a half Indian, half Australian living in London. I am a self-privileged, possiblist, not an optimist, not a pesimist, not a realist, and as I'm sure we'll talk about not any longer a perfectionist. I run a company called High Definition U and we get up to so much fun in the world. We get to work with individuals and leaders and organisations and teams who want things to be different in the way that they're experiencing life. A greater sense of ease and effortlessness around how they're bringing the best version of themselves and we get to unlock the possibilities and create lots of possiblists around us so that they can, you know, really enjoy what it is that they're doing and when they're not, so they can see the way that the human mind works so that when they're not, they know that they'll be okay. I love that. I love the idea of possiblists. What's the difference to be a possiblist in an optimist? So an optimist is always looking for the silver lining, right? Things are going to get better. Things are going to be fine. And for me, there's a delta, there's a like time gap between now and what an optimist is seeing is possible at the end of the tunnel, like there's a light, they see the light at the end of the tunnel and what a possiblist does is lights a match in the tunnel. Okay, fine. So they have the light now where they are now. Yeah, it's like there is something available to me now. It's not over there. And what I found is that there is this attachment to positivity that goes with optimism, which is not necessarily true. You know, I'm a there's plenty of optimists that maybe don't have that. But the danger for me with that is there's a toxicity to that positivity. So either we're saying it to ourselves, like pep talking ourselves up to something, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be fine tomorrow. So we're always kind of outside of this present moment and trying to be sr brains into believing that things are better than they are. Now, our brains are incredibly, incredibly sophisticated machines. You know, as we were talking about my thought, and you know, neuroscience is my field of study in terms of human behaviour, right? So trying to be assert, trying to trick it by pep talking it into positive thinking is not only an illusion, but also quite destructive as far as I can see, particularly when we then look at leaders and what they're doing and trying to get the, but innocently, as I say, innocently, you know, from a place of, I am always assuming, well intentioned behaviour to get the best out of their people. They're like, it's going to be okay. We're going to get through this. It's bound together. We're a team, you know, the sales are going to come. We're going to get through the pandemic. It just becomes rhetoric that can become quite toxic when we look at instead, how do we one remind ourselves of how the mind works, which, you know, we can happily talk about today. And then two, within that, what does that mean about the possibilities that I can unlock now? Possibilities neutral, not a kind of, um, or I don't want it to be that way. I'd love it to be that way in terms of, you know, the brains either going towards pleasure or away from pain, but actually within this space, there's so much from a calm, settled mind that is available to us in terms of possibilities that we just can't see if we're trying to bullshit ourselves into being positive or trying to avoid coming across either to ourselves as others as negative. So that makes sense to you. How would you summarize that? I'm always interested in how would you summarize that? What a possibility is. So it sounds like a possible list is somebody who's looking at okay, what can I do about this situation that I'm in right now? Not like, oh, it's okay, it's going to be okay at some point in the future, but and not like push it because I think a lot of the time, we spend so much time like pushing down emotions that we don't want to feel with the whole toxic positivity of I have to be positive all the time. And it's great to be positive, but sometimes it's it's not if something sad's happened, then it's totally it's totally okay to sit with those emotions. And we spend so much of our time pushing those away that actually it's just with a possibility. It sounds like well, my interpretation of it is that you're accepting the situation as it is and then seeing okay, well, what can I do from here? And I like that you said it was neutral because it's what are the different options? Some of them might be options that I don't like, but it's still an option. I just don't like that option and I don't want to choose it, but it is still an option. So yeah, I love that. I'm a possibilities which I don't want to know. I also love that the word bliss is in there in a way. You know, as possibilities plus bliss because that is central to the theme of how I see things and thereby, you know, what it means for how we work with clients is that there is a sense of bliss. Again, not a sort of, oh my gosh, everything's fabulous, but bliss in the true sense of, as you might know, serotonin, right, which is, activates the bliss center of the brain in terms of that sense of contentment with being here now. So it's not dopamine, it's not moving forward, it's not motivation, it's not drive, it's not seeking something. It's this sense of, and we say like, oh god, I'm so blissed out and we go like this, I'm so blissed out and we drop into the physicality even of that moment, right, of that sense of bliss is available to us. And then exactly as you said, Nuthana is, and I find myself saying this all the time, not only to myself or to clients, but also to my children is feel all the feelings. Feel the feelings, right? Our consciousness comes through the feedback of our feelings, right? We couldn't understand our experience without feeling, right? And for me, that link is super clear, it only ever comes that feeling from one place and that is our thinking. So when I allow myself, as you said, to feel those feelings, I'm not trying to trick myself out of anything, I'm not trying to trick my thinking into being something else, but this is, oh my gosh, I wish, you know, really cheesy way that I had known this when I was younger that someone had told me this is that feelings only last as long as the thought. Yes, right? Like as far as I knew, once I felt like upset, sad, disappointed, angry, afraid, then I was into that feeling and there was no concept one that it was coming from my thinking. It was almost definitively coming from something outside of myself. And I mean, either my dress size, you know, when I was an actress, like the numbers on a scale or feedback from a manager when I was in my corporate career as a leader in banking. or from, you know, whether my children were saying, "Please, and thank you." You know, it's like it's all, it was, I thought it was always coming from the outside and that's what gave me that feeling of, you know, fear, anxiety, worry, disappointment, guilt, etc. And then when I realized, and this was four years ago, how the mind works and how we actually create our reality and that feeling comes from thinking, and not only that, that feeling only glasses on was a thought. Like, we can't feel something if we're not thinking something, and I challenge anyone that's listening to that to challenge that, which I did. And I was like, "That can't be true. The challenger for yourself, see it for yourself." And then the other thing that went along with that, that's very deeply grounded in being a possibleist and thereby in our work. And this was a game changer. Like, "Oh my God, nobody told me that secret! I don't have to believe my thinking." Hmm, yes. I'm like, "Oh, oh, okay." Don't, right? So this sense of, you said, you know, acceptance, and the piece that goes with that is letting go, doesn't become a thing I have to do. And I had this conversation with the leadership team just this week, actually, in our leadership lab. I'm like, "How do I let go of things?" It's like, "Oh, I don't have to learn to let go of things." The design of the system is such that another thought is going to come along, just like a bus. Another bus is going to come along. You know, and as long as I remind myself of that, when I'm in the like. [laughter] Yeah. It settles something in me to go, "Oh, yeah. Okay, something else will come along." And not necessarily an option. Not necessarily a solution, because, you know, I imagine, you know, a lot of your listeners, their training is incredible. I mean, so much respect for what you're doing in the world. In terms of that scientific analysis and solving a problem, and sometimes it's not about coming up with the options. It's not about solving the problem. Now, you know, and these are the times when I'm sure you've had it yourself, where you're in the shower and something just comes to you. Right? That's not coming from you thinking about the thing to try and work it out. No, you're right. It just comes. Yeah. I'm not knowing that that's how it works. Is that there is an innate wisdom and innate resilience, as I call it. Well, I call it your piccolo. That sweet little instrument that sounds in your being, but isn't the noise of the marching band. Knowing that that's there, and it's going to guide me, and it's going to arrive when it arrives in real time, in response to something that's in front of me. I mean, I wish someone had told me that too. I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't knowing. I haven't knowing, and I can trust it. And it's not gone anywhere, and I don't need to be well-behaved to get it back. And I don't need to be naughty or nice to avoid it. You know, and it's pretty cool, as I see it, right? It is really cool. And you know, this whole, like what you just said there, reminded me actually this series is actually called "Exploring Possibilities", and that idea came to me when I was in the shower and suddenly I thought, this season should be called "Exploring Possibilities". I see. You see that? You see there? It just occurred and look at the synergy that happens. Exactly. It's so weird. I can't think how wait is that? You know, we can't, we try to, and even Einstein said it, we cannot use the same thinking to solve our problems that we use to create them. You know, it's just not how it works. There is inspiration at play in the form of what I call "pickle" and the form of infinite wisdom that's arriving through us. And when you know that, there's something very for me. And as I see it with clients, is there's a liberation that comes from the overthinking and the need to get it right and the fear of getting it wrong and the worry about letting people down and the anxiety of what if and then and then or the regret and the disappointment. You know, and I'm doing this because there are two time zones in my mind. Right. And you know, you probably see it in your field as well. It's like, now it comes into anxiety disorder or now it comes into depression. You know, that time spent thinking backwards or that time future thinking. In neither of those time zones is your pickler available to you. Is your wisdom available to you? Is the answer available to you? But we're so not even trained, like just innocently, again, misunderstanding how the system works. You know, we think if we think it through and I'm much more of the overthinking forward of like, okay, if I do this and then I do, yeah, but what if they say that? What if that's not there and then, okay, and then nothing happens. So, you know, procrastination, perfectionism, fear of getting it wrong. I feel like you're in my head, Gita. I do get that a lot, but lean up and I'm like, so sorry that my weird Australian accent is like inside your neural pathways now, but secretly, I don't know. How do you know what's going on in my head? Yeah, it's bound to be true. It's like also that, and particularly with the female leaders that we work with, and I'm sure it's true of the men, I just think that they haven't had as much of a platform to talk about it as we have over the last kind of decade. There's a kind of, oh, I better not tell anybody about that. Like, oh god, you don't like keep it together. You know, you're, we start to use words like be professional or, you know, we put gravitas into the mix. So we're adding be more confident into our thinking, or we get told to be more confident, or we get physical looks when we do confess that we don't feel confident. It's like, "Really? God, you'd seen really confident." So now it's like this whirlwind of thinking. So it's just better that I keep my mouth shut and allow the like, you know, to happen in my own mind versus talking about it. And even just that understanding that it might be in someone else's mind is one thing that the bigger liberation for me was really, truly understanding that we're in eight billion separate realities. We just start like this conversation is divine and we're going to both take something away from it. And I'm don't even want to say that it's different. It's just not going to be exactly the same. All right. And when we can approach our relationships, whether they're professional or personal, from that as a given, then things like, you know, empathetic leadership, things like deep listening, things like stepping in other people's shoes, things like perspective, come from that place of innate resilience, infinite wisdom because I'm seeking to connect to the same thing in you. Yeah. That actually is the same rather than, and it's not even conscious sometimes, rather than trying to overcome the differences or avoid the difficult conversations because we don't agree, et cetera. It's just so much, there's so much more ease. It's not easy, you know, I often find myself talking about the difference between ease and easy, but there's so much more ease about it, right? As I see it. Yeah, absolutely. You touched on so much there, so there's so many different, like so many possibilities you've given. I can't tell. So many possibilities. Exactly. So let's, let's speak a little bit about confidence because I know I've heard that a little bit about your take on confidence. I think it is a bit different and it is helpful. And I think we could all do with a bit of confidence boost. So it'll be great to hear your take on confidence. Mm-hmm. So if you're going to get a boost of anything, what I really, really recommend is that it's curiosity and courage. And in fact, I am on a personal mission to ban the word confidence because I find it wildly unhelpful. And this is as I see it from my own experience as well as how I see it with clients, is because we do end up in this situation where one, and I call them confidence canundrums, you know, when I'm speaking to teams or doing talks, is one, I am waiting until I feel confident too. You know, apply for that job, say no to that person, you know, take on a new position, you know, whatever it is, is I'm waiting until I feel this thing called confidence before I do a thing. Or I'm doing a thing and I don't feel confident, but I don't want anyone to know because I'm told that I should be confident. Okay, so now I'm like, okay, or I'm given feedback by a well-intentioned leader that is, you know, just be more confident. And what does that mean when people say exactly how? Right? So there's so many canundrums that I talk through that just it became super clear to me that at the crux of it, it's a really wildly unhelpful word. And so then it begs the question, what is it actually? What is it that is beneath that, that then people read as confidence in you? And for me, I mean those seven seas because I love a literary, but two that are core, and this is the foundation of our methodology. It's a foundation of how you change your brain, is it starts with curiosity. So actually in, well, you give me an example of a type of something you'd like to be more confident in, Noothanur, and we'll do it that way. Okay. I'm going to say public speaking. Yeah, great. Absolutely. So when I'm more confident, as a public speaker, then I'll put myself forward for, you know, more panel interviews, more podcasts, more, or I'll start my podcast, might be some of the language, right? So you're, you're totally in my head again because I spent, I spent months before, you know, thinking about the podcast before I started, I was, you know, spent ages like planning and learning about podcasts, and you know, oh, well, when I feel confident, and then I thought, I'm only going to feel confident if I just start doing it. So that's where it's going to come from. So I'll just start. So yeah, I guess, I guess that's the same with this. I'm never suddenly going to feel confident about public speaking unless I actually go and do it. That's right. And that lightness, that kind of humor about it is what I encourage people to bring to it. It's like, oh my gosh, I see through the illusion. Like I see through the illusion. So then if it's helpful to, in that moment, the next time something like that comes up to actually activate your curiosity because that is innate curiosity and courage should I need to learn? You know, it's not like, oh, okay, I've got to figure out how to remember every bone in the human body. You know, I mean, there's stuff that you women do and man is like, well, no, I didn't learn it like literally, you know, anyone that's got children or anyone that's ever been a child, the curiosity is innate. So the question then becomes not even the question is the kind of cue is, ah, let me activate my curiosity here. And so then from there, what occurs to me, it might be another question, it might be, I wonder who I know who's already done a podcast or it might be, I don't know, I'm going to call it. Oh God, don't get it wrong. What's it going to be called? I don't the name's really important. And now I mean to like the thinking on the thinking on the thinking on the thinking and then I go, oh, that's right. That's not how I'm designed. And then something else occurs to me and it might be, it might be exploring possibly like something comes to me in the shower when I'm not thinking about it. Right? Because also the thing with curiosity is our brains. So I'm always at the apex of two things, modern neuroscience and ancient wisdom. Right? The ancient wisdom exploring possibilities. Right? That wasn't an analysis, a scientific result, an opinion poll or a forum that got you that. It was an ancient wisdom that came through you through inspiration. And then the modern neuroscience of it is that our brains are problem-solving machines. And so when we put something into them, the machine is working when we're not even conscious of it. Right? So it's trusting both of those things. And as I always say, if one had to fall away, it would be the science. Because actually the infinite wisdom is infinite. Right? And then we get to add in this beautiful built-in ability to act with courage. Right? And I talk about accelerating courage. I'd actually accelerate it because sometimes again, hello, overthinkers, I see you, I see you, it's me. No, not drowning. There's no breathing drowning. Is that sense of courage is actually, and I said this actually to my eight-year-old recently, they've just moved schools. And I said, where are you on the courage scale around that? And he's like, oh, two. And I said, oh, okay, yeah. And we had a conversation and I said, isn't it so great that courage is designed for when we're not ready for things? Right? If I'm at a hundred, I don't need courage. And it's just a thing on the to-do list or something that I'm doing. The idea is that courage is what's built into our system so that we do take risks. Right? And so when we add that into the conversation, and imagine that for yourself, let alone with your team, you know, with the people around you, where we move the conversation from this nebulous, as I see wildly unhelpful word confidence to curiosity and courage. And what happens as a result in terms of the richness of the monologue that goes on for ourselves, and what we see differently. But also what that means, then, you know, whether it's as a parent or whether it's as a doctor or whether it's as a partner or whether it's as a leader, it becomes a very different way of unlocking the possibilities in yourself and in the people around you. I love this take. Why? Yeah. Why didn't nobody tell me this before? This is, yeah, because we say that all the time, don't we? Like, oh, just be confident. And like, I've got an interview coming up in a couple of weeks. I've had it by the time this, this is. So I can keep you posted, but at the moment, like people are like, oh, you know, like, yeah, you need to speak a bit more confidently. And you just think, well, I don't really know what that means. But actually thinking about the curiosity in so many ways of like curiosity about how am I feeling about this or, you know, what do I think about this? And then, yeah, and then that courage that you're so right, we don't need it for things that we know how to do. I don't need courage to time I see lasers because I've been doing it for years, but I do need courage when I go and speak on a stage in front of lots of people because I'm not used to doing it. But the only way that I will then not need courage to do that is by going and doing it. And also the really a big caveat around this is, you know, and I'm going to take Nike on here and, you know, I'm waiting for them. I'm waiting to be important enough in the world that they come to get me for this. But the just do it tag is wildly unhelpful. They, oh, I'm going to get better at it if I just do it. So now when I don't just do it, I feel crap about myself. And then I have other people saying, just do it. You know how to do this. You're going to be great. So now I feel even more crap about myself because someone else see something in me that I don't see in me and I either want to make them right or I want to have their approval or I shrink back down. Right? So they just do it as I see it for the people that don't need it. They don't need to hear it. And for the people that do hearing it is rather unhelpful because they're, well, just do more public speaking and you'll get more confident. Now becomes the rhetoric potentially, right? Well, just do it in to you and you'll see. So okay, yeah, okay. Whereas actually the sense, and we talked about this at the beginning, the feeling, all the feelings of like, okay, yeah, wow, excitement, fear, worry, confusion, frustration, joy, but say, okay, I have access to this incredibly rich way of experiencing my consciousness. And thereby creating my reality is one, which is what we talked about. And then the courage piece of it isn't I kind of just do it because now we're almost a little bit into that toxicity of positivity, right? Like come on, just do it. Go for it. Go for it. You know, and sometimes that works, you know, when I'm getting in the cold shower every morning, I'm like, come on, go for it. You know, sometimes it works. But I want there to be something that people can see has a consistency about it that they can point themselves in the direction of, which is what we do, right? It's point them in the direction of this. And so the courage becomes again linked with curiosity, again linked with the understanding that feelings are linked to thinking, again linked with the understanding that the feeling's going to pass as as soon as the thinking does. And then courage becomes not even an action. It's a sense of, I almost want to say joy in taking the risk because it's paired with curiosity. And sometimes courage can be this, you know, a big thing of like, oh, I have to have more courage. I should be more courageous and should, by the way, oh, don't get me started on that word. Courage and Mandela says that so said it so eloquently, right? Like courage is not the absence of fear. It's the triumph over fear. So it's not about you not having, you know, potentially feelings of fear around the interview, but it's the triumph over those fear, over that fear or those fears. Now, very eloquently said, thank you Mandela, greatest of respects. Two things I always say to clients, never get a tattoo that says fearless. Unless you have had some sort of brain trauma, injury, you are designed to experience fear. It is a part, literally a part of our makeup in terms of our brains and our neuro pathways. So don't get that tattoo that says fearless. Two, how do you try out for fear? Then became the question for me. Is that okay? It's not the absence of fear. Fear exists on the modern neuroscience of things. And it's a part of the age-old wisdom of things. And, you know, and this is where we get the tales of overcoming, you know. So how do we how? How do we overcome fear? And what occurred to me is what the example that I found myself seeing really, really clearly is what where are the correct like we think about someone that runs into a burning building, not a firefighter, and saves like a child. You know, there's, oh my god, they were so courageous. Wow, you were so brave. Now, in that moment, they've done what we can all do. They've done it without consciousness, right? They just unconsciously did this thing. And that was they made a decision that the baby was more important than their fear of getting hurt or dying. And so then we can apply the same with consciousness until we don't need it, right? Of our ex, either something for yourself, preferably, because intrinsic motivation is more important than my fear. So for the interview, I don't know what might that be for you? The wanting to do well and wanting the job at the end of it is more important than the fear. And so why do you want the job? Because I, because I want to go and make my difference. It's like the same with the podcast. I didn't start it because I wasn't, like, there wasn't, there was definitely fear there. There wasn't an absence of fear, but, but my, because I really wanted to make something that was going to support and empower lots of medical women all over the world who wanted to listen. That is so much more important to me than the fear that I'm, that I'm able to do it even, even though I do get a bit nervous when I do the podcast. And that's exactly that's tapping in. So what you did then was curiosity, because I said, well, why? Why is that important to you to do that? I feel like, why? It's like, and you were so clear. When I was listening to you, I was so clear why? Because it ties into your overall way, right? This is why we talk about purpose. It's like, when that's super obvious to you, it's not, and it can be, it's extrinsic. It can be, it's money. It's like, I can buy a house. I'll be able to get a car. You know, my children can go to private school or, or, or, like, you can make extrinsic stuff. But actually, when it's intrinsic and it's linked to something that really matters to you, and the overcoming of the fear, as in the acceleration of the courage, it just has that, that sense of these, not without the fear, and not with suddenly I feel confident, but it links innately then to the curiosity of like, oh, okay, yeah. So what is, what is more important than that fear? Oh, it's that. Okay, why is that important to me? Ooh, I wonder how that will unfold. Like, I wonder what questions they'll ask me. I wonder what I haven't heard before from them. I wonder what will come out of my mouth. And you're into the wonderfulness, wonderful with the double L, and us of how we designed to create and experience our reality, whether it's an interview or podcaster, you know, new job, a global pandemic, a change in anything to do with our environment. And that's the modern neuroscience of things as well. That's very, very clear to us now, thankfully, is that neuroplasticity exists. You can teach an old dog new tricks. The brain is designed to change. That's what neuroplasticity is, as I'm sure you know, designed to change in response to its experience. I mean, I wish I knew that too earlier. I'm like, can I get in the delorean with Michael J. Fox and go back in time, please, and teach myself this. No, but what I can do, and I'm hopefully doing it. Thank you for having me on to talk about it, is talking about it now, so that whoever's hearing it, whenever they hear it, you know, it will spark something in them that creates a possibility in them that they didn't already know existed. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we all wish that we could go back. No, I'll be honest with Michael J. Fox. Yes, specific place. That's the request. At least we don't know, so we can do something about it now. Well, get into the, I've just got a few quick fire questions for you. That's okay. So the first one is a question that I should probably stop asking because I love books. I keep buying all the books that everybody recommends, but I will ask what book would you recommend that people read? It can be about anything. It doesn't have to be about. Oh, my God. Oh, no, no. No, no. There's so many. I mean, I love man search for meaning. Victor Frank. That really when I read it, very small book. So if you're like, not another book for them, you know, stack on the. Bedside table, very small book, but very big impact for me. Great. Have you read it? I, this is one of several books that I have. I'm like, I'm just read, but I haven't actually got to it yet. But anyone that's interested in, yeah, what it is to be human and how we create our reality and how we navigate whatever it is, whether as, you know, a concentration camp in his situation, or, you know, a really annoying boss. You know, there was a lot of richness in it for me. I will also say, I'm Jensen's arrow separately. You are a badass at the other end of like really funny and really digestible in terms of how do I see myself that one I have read and it is hilarious. Oh my god, she's fabulous. So yeah, maybe do the mean tandem is one slightly lighter than the other. Brilliant. Oh, well, we'll definitely put both of those in the show notes. Is there any advice that you've ever been given that's been really helpful that you would wish to pass on to others? Yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah, I mean, it's probably what I've talked about today because that, you know, has come in the form of, you know, being mentored by just this incredible Michael Neal is my mentor. And it's less advice actually because as I see it, it's meant to be quick fire. But advice is also can be unhelpful because if if I'm not in a place to move forward, then I also, I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, I should do that to answer the question. Advice that I've been given. I guess it's really that, well, the thing that comes to my mind without overthinking yet is two great questions to ask myself at any time where I'm feeling lost or overthinking or unsure is what do I know to do? And then what is the kindest thing I can do for myself right now? And that might not be easy if you're if you're someone who is a people pleaser and you don't want to be seen as selfish. But actually those two questions. Yeah, it's interesting to play with those brilliant questions. I need to put them on a post in our own stick them up so that I can ask myself those those questions, those brilliant. My last quick fire question is question that we spoke about children and curiosity and every group of children and young people who work with the world college of pediatrics and child health came up with this question and they very kind of let us borrow it for the podcast. So the question is if you were a type of biscuit, what type of biscuit would you be and why? Well, I'd be a tim tam one because they're Australian two because they're fast superior to penguins how dare you don't anybody anybody ever compare them to a penguin. What's a tim tam? A tim tam is similar actually to a penguin three because it's multi layered so there's this there is a biscuit but it's got this core running through it of like rich chocolate which is just delicious and on the outside it has like another thin layer of chocolate. So it's kind of on the same theme but there's different layers to it and the core of it is the most delicious. That sounds like a delicious biscuit. Do we get them here or do I have to go to Australia to go and have to go to a table, but they do sell them in some of those shops where they sell everything from like Hershey bars today, you know, they root, you know, all the American sweets and things like that and you'll get the Australian tim tam's in there. It's well worth finding out and paying an exorbitant amount for them. Oh, I could just go to Australia today. Well, if you also have a possibility, you know, it's all possible. Everything is possible. Absolutely. It is. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been so lovely speaking to you. Thank you for inviting me. I really love the conversation. Thanks, Nathaniel. Thank you so much for listening to the Medical Women podcast. Make sure to subscribe for free on whichever podcast platform you listen on so that you automatically get our episodes. The aim of this podcast is to support and empower as many medical women in their careers as we possibly can. So please share this episode with at least one other medical woman. If you're interested in joining the Medical Women's Federation, we would love to have you and all links to our website and social media are in the show notes. This podcast has been produced on behalf of the Medical Women's Federation by Dr. Nathaniel Bankrim and Miss Jenna McKenzie. Our music was composed and played by Dr. Keith Bankrim. Thank you so much for listening.