S3 Ep63: “Into the Mystery” - Initiation, Experience & Growth w Kevin Donascimento

[Music] Welcome to the Fighting Priests, a podcast exploring Orthodoxy and Jiu-Jitsu, two paths and one struggle. Father Ted Percevauculus and Father Thomas Sandberg are two Orthodox Christian priests who also happen to be practitioners of Jiu-Jitsu. Together they explore how these two unique worlds intersect and what it means for our spirituality. Here's Father Ted and Father Thomas. [Music] Welcome everybody back to the Fighting Priests. My name is Father Ted Percevauculus and I am not with my co-host Father Thomas Sandberg today. As we had said in our last episode, we are actually kind of coming closer to the beginning of Great Lent and with that comes of course much more, you know, many more services and much more work for the priests. And so today as we record, it is the first, what we call the Saturday of the Souls, Sikos Abel doing Greek, which is the, you know, the Saturdays that are dedicated to the commemoration of the dead. And we have three of those in the Orthodox tradition, two of them, the two weeks before Great Lent starts and the third one in the first Saturday of Great Lent. And so it's a really really busy service. A lot of people come to the church and it's super crazy. So I just, I just finished mine for the Thomas, as you all know, is in Calgary about two hours behind me. He's still in service so you can be here with us today. But we have a very, very special guest today, actually a guest who is connected with the last guest we had a couple of weeks ago for the James Gurgis, which we interviewed from North Carolina. And today we have somebody who he mentioned to us, I believe on the podcast as well. I can't comment of his, his name is Samuel Kevin, donas cemento, did I pronounce that properly? Kevin, you got it perfect. Is that an Italian background or is that a Spanish background? Portuguese Portuguese. Well, you know, come on, you're fighting priests, not. No, my dad was not into. I should have led with that first, right? The last event could be, could be either of those actually. Right. It sounds right. It sounds more Portuguese. It sounds more South American, but there you go. So, yeah, so Kevin is with us also from North Carolina. He is a blue belt in Jiu Jitsu under John Shell. And he lives in North Carolina. And as father, father James had mentioned, he is also a current catacumain in the Orthodox Church for our viewers, for our listeners, not viewers. Who may or may not know what a catacumain is, a catacumain is a person who is studying who is not an Orthodox Christian yet, but is studying can become a doctor. Right. So when we learn catacism, which is the Greek word for studying the faith, learning the faith, we are called catacumates. Kevin is in that kind of stage in his life. We'll get into it in the conversation. And he is also a Jiu Jitsu blue belt who's been actually training on and off for the good six to seven years. And we're really, really happy to have you on. We're always interested in having new people on both Orthodox and non-Orthodox or, you know, people who are preparing to be Orthodox. And also people who love Jiu Jitsu. So Kevin, welcome to the podcast. I'm glad to have you. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So how is, so you're you're down in North Carolina. And so I don't know, like I was wondering, okay, how do we, you know, what should I ask you first? I ask you about like, you know, Jiu Jitsu first. I should ask you about like, you know, Orthodoxy. But I figure the best thing to do is just just tell us a little bit about yourself first, you know, like as far as, you know, background, family, you know, where you grew up. Yeah, that's also a little bit about your body, self. Yeah, sure. So my parents came from South America. My mother's from Peru, my father's from Brazil. They met somewhere along the way. I think it was like Columbia or Venezuela. They're like kind of going up that route. Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of thing. And they got together. My mom was raised Catholic and my father was raised seventh day Adventist. Yeah, and visiting my my father's family later in life, they were not very big fans of Catholics. So that was an interesting thing. But the time that I, I went to Brazil, I was kind of away from the faith in some sense. And I would say probably the reason I was away from the faith was, you know, I got to a point where I called myself an atheist now, like how, you know, like was I actually an atheist. That's a different question, but go ahead. Question for you, were you baptized Catholic when you were a baby or your mom? No, no, nothing. I think she was part of the, the part of the Catholic church that was more about like age of reason doctrine sort of thing. I'm not sure, but because she was baptized, I think when she was like a middle school age during your high age, something like that. But yeah. And I guess the reason was is, you know, I didn't really, I don't, I didn't really understand Christianity. I think probably even after 30 years, I still don't in, in all honesty. I don't, I don't know if I ever will, to be honest, but, you know, I'll try my best, you know. It, you know, I get off on tangents a lot. So correct. Okay. Go ahead, stop me. But, you know, it feels like there are, there are so many more rabbit holes, the more I dig into orthodoxy and stuff like that. I mean, it's all, I guess the same, but, you know, there are so many fathers, church fathers, just the gospels. There's a lot of theology and philosophy on the subjects. And then you get into the, you know, from the middle ages on and then you get into the, some of the stuff in the, what is it? The Brana songs period and, and then the enlightenment and, you know, it, because it's, it's so, so vast knowledge. I mean, not all of its orthodox or anything like that, but, so, and I guess, you know, let's, I guess generally my background is, you know, I grew up in a very kind of all over the place, sort of, sort of way of, or all of the place, area of faiths or, or where there were so many different ways of worshiping and, and, and practicing that I just, I didn't understand it. And I was arrogant enough as a teenager as we often are, you know, that I was like, okay, this, I don't believe this, you know, or, and there was a part of me that wanted to be, I guess, a scientist, like I think I was the dream at the time when I was a teenager was I wanted to be an astrophysicist. And again, with that arrogance, you know, because astrophysics is very, very difficult, you know, I, I thought, well, I believe in the story of evolution, and it doesn't work with the story of Genesis. I have to pick one for some reason, or does it. Yeah, yeah, or what would you say, sir, or does it, does it work? Or does, yeah, yeah, yeah, it does work. And, and for, you know, and so I went with evolution in some sense. And yeah, that's kind of, and I guess, I mean, if you want me to get into why came back to earth at IC, that's a little bit more. Well, so, so basically like, so what I'm hearing is basically that you know, you had kind of, it was like a hodgepodge of different kind of religions, like, well, different, I guess you can say different expressions of preshabie, mostly, and assuming right. But not really growing up in one specific tradition, so I left you while okay, doesn't really mean magic, because there's all these different kind of groups and all the same different stuff. And then you, you mentioned that you went. So were you born in the state, were you born in South America? Oh, born in the States, born in the States. Yeah, yeah. So you were born in the States, and then you visited Brazil, you said you went back to Brazil. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I went to Brazil. We visited Brazil when I was in middle school junior high age, yeah, around that time. And that's about the time where it was, it was becoming a little bit. I didn't know what I, what I believed in some sense, I wouldn't quite say I was an atheist yet. Or called myself an atheist yet. What was happening was, I think we were getting to, it was a biology class that I was taking when I was in eighth grade, right. And there was, there were some classmates that were considered themselves young earth creationists and, and it was, it was difficult to, for me to, because they would, they would make comments about it after the lecture or, you know, in other points. I wanted to defend those ideas in some sense. And, and so, you know, like, and, and then, you know, and then there's also this kind of. of unconscious thing about like, well, you know, if I go with evolution or this materialism, I guess, is probably the better way to put it. You know, I don't have to buy all these, you know, tenants of Christianity where like, you know, about sin or, or, you know, or, you know, waking up on Sunday and going to church, you know, petty things like that, you know. So, you know, in some sense, it was probably unconscious expression of what I wanted. Or, or, you know, as opposed to an actual rational decision that I made kind of thing. So, yeah, I get, sorry, what was the question? Did I just, I'm just fascinated because so you're kind of going along that route. And so, when did you kind of pivot? Like what, what made you, I'm assuming, because a lot, you know, a lot of, a lot of young people and they don't have to be not like even orthodox, young people, just because somebody's baptized when they're maybe orthodox doesn't mean that they're orthodox. Like, they're maybe orthodox on paper or they may be baptized in an orthodox family, but a large number of people don't grow up actually going to church, culturally. I guess you could say orthodox, right? Right. But they don't know much about the faith either. And of course, um, like you, when you go to school and then they're exposed to many, many different ideas and different, not just forget about science, but like different philosophies, ideologies, that which is a good thing. It's not a bad thing at all. It's a good thing to like, be opposed to everything. But if you don't know your own tradition and you don't know your own faith, well, then yeah, it's so easy to be swayed or, you know, it's like when other people poke holes in, in our faith, then you wonder, well, instead of saying, well, maybe I need to go back and learn the, you know, the roots of it or like, you know, get the fundamentals down. Right. And most people just say, well, no, then it must be wrong. Let's just ditch it. You're very, very. Yeah. Which is, which is normal. It's not a, it's not too agitated. And so, yeah, what, what you experienced and what many people experience, especially at that age, you know, getting grade eight, grade nine, you start hitting 16, 17, you know, going to high school and then, and then the university, that's when most people leave the church or distance or kind of deviate away from the church. Okay. Okay. Even historically, even Orthodox Christians like 17, 18, stop going to church and then some people reconnect later, mostly in the 30s, even later and some people don't. So it's kind of things to be a trend everywhere. So that's, that's, that's, that's not surprising. What I am fascinated about is, well, what, okay, so what happened that made you kind of take a second look. And also not only take a second look, because you're not going back to Catholicism or suddenly the Adventism, you're coming back to faith, but then you're coming back to Orthodoxy, which is bizarre. Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay. That's a bit, I guess, a longer story and, go ahead, rain me in if you need to. I'll try, I'll try to keep you brief. So I guess the first thing was, when I was 19, I was staying with, staying with some friends at a rented property. We were renting altogether kind of thing. I was not up to good things at this point in my life. Neither one, my friends were probably much worse, hopefully. And they brought back a thing called LSD. And so I had a terrible experience on that. And I realized that materialism doesn't work. That kind of blows that kind of conception of reality out of the water. What you think you know about reality just kind of melts away if to borrow a phrase. And I wouldn't say that that made me switch over to Christianity, but it definitely opened my eyes that I don't have the world put in a neat little box. And so that kind of opened my mind up to things. But probably not for the worst because I also encountered two individuals to this day that I don't really know who they were or what they were. But you could probably, they were either conmen or probably evil gangsters. Who knows? I have no idea to this day. One stayed in a condo in downtown. And I was thinking maybe I could strike it rich if I did some things for them. Stuff that I'm not proud of. And one of them was kind of a meathead. I did not know about this story when I was spending time with them. But one of the friends that I was talking about that we weren't really up to any good things was hanging out with them one time. And this meathead came back up, upstairs and into the room. And his shirt was like covered in blood kind of thing. And he said he got into a fight. But you know what? That's a scary story. I did not know about it. I was I was spending I was hanging out with these these dudes for like nine months who knows. And there was a point where I was just like this you know I got to cut my losses. You like from the go. Yeah, time to get out. And I was I was so scared. Cutting out. You know, I thought I would you know there were nights that I thought I was going to die my sleep kind of thing. You know, maybe it was just the paranoid paranoid me because like their times that they were very very normal kind of thing. You know, like who knows. So I cut my losses and that this didn't bring me to Orthodox yet. But it is related because I got into Jiu Jitsu specifically because of this because I was afraid if I ever encountered these men on the streets or anything like that. I would probably need to defend myself. You know, something like that. And and there was you know, I didn't know about Jiu Jitsu at the time. You know, there's just an unconscious thing like I took up lifting. I was like looking at martial arts and trying to see like is there is there something that could you know help me you know. And so you know, I I found Jiu Jitsu. I looked up you I saw UFC one when I was on a fitness form like they were talking about you know, and like I was like, oh, maybe this is it. Maybe this is what I needed to learn. And found found John Shell in 2016, 2017 started training then. And now for Orthodoxy, how this happened. I got an injury in Jiu Jitsu. I got a what is it a toehold that we were white belts at the time. All about winning, right. And you know, I didn't want to tap. He wanted to go for a toehold. So he just cranked it. There was like a moment I should have tapped you know. But yeah, it pops and I was sidelined. You know, I couldn't lift. I couldn't couldn't do Jiu Jitsu. Couldn't you know, like where you're in guard. And you get on and you're on your your knees and your and your the toe and your toes kind of thing. That kind of position. You can't do that. I couldn't it was too painful to be in that position. And I was limping for a couple months. Thankfully, no surgery or anything like that. Just needed some time. The MCL was only partially torn or I if I remember correctly the orthopedics doctor said they heal on their own. So maybe it just something like that happened. But it was during this time I took up drawing. And specifically I listened to somebody that I realized you're familiar with Jordan Peterson because you had a talk with him in Jonathan Pago in 2017. I saw that one. Yeah, I was not supportive with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, my claim to fame. But yeah, and I started listening to him and he kind of brought me back to like religious thinking and Christian thinking specifically and recognizing that there was wisdom there and that it actually fit with Jiu Jitsu in some sense in that especially orthodoxy where it's like we're talking about you know, I guess sacrament is considered a mystery. Am I saying that? Yes, I'm describing that correctly. In fighting, you never know anything like everything. There's always you know a mystery to the fight in some sense. I'm not trying to say fighting is a sacrament or trying to equate it to that. But in some sense you go into it and you'll never know what's going to happen. The only things you know are like and when you get into a position that you're not comfortable in, you have to rely on the basics and your instincts and what you drilled as much as you can. You know, you have to fall back on the foundation. And so when the way Jordan Peterson was talking about Christianity and religion and these kinds of ideas really fit well with what I was already experiencing in Jiu Jitsu and competition and such. And so that and then I later picked a found Pago, Jonathan Pago and I was reading a little bit of Carl Jung. I didn't really like Jungians too much if you know if I may. It's all perfect. Yeah, not perfect but But when I, but I did get a, what is it? There was a warning that I heard paraphrase from young is if you want to, what he deemed as the self, if you want to integrate or approach the self in some sense, the archetype of the self, you should do that through the, through the religion of your culture because if you try to approach it as an individual, it will probably, it will probably lead you to madness or insanity in some sense, which he, he, he proposed or hypothesized happened to him and Friedrich Nietzsche. So you know, I took that advice found John Femagot and I was like, so what are the closest things to my culture, Catholicism? Yeah, that's, you know, but Orthodoxy is also cool, you know, I like, I like, I guess I can't, you know, like what is it they, I heard a quote is, go to church for the wrong reasons but stay for Jesus Christ, right? And so I went because, you know, I just, I looked at an Orthodox church inside or outside, it's just beautiful. Like, I fell in love with the iconography and stuff like that. So yeah, as long as story that is, that's, that's, that's where, where I'm at with it, you know. So, so the Jordan Peterson actually, he said the same thing. You know, yeah, well, Jonathan Pajillo, he's, he's an Orthodox Christian too, obviously and, and he's very, they're very close friends, personal friends. But, you know, Peter, since gone, he's gone to a lot of Orthodox services. Although, Peterson doesn't, doesn't really kind of commit to any particular tradition, but he seems to really like when he's been asked, you can find quite a bit that he talks about Orthodoxy online, but when he talks about it out of all the different kind of traditions, he really enjoys it. He seems to, he thinks that there's no pretentiousness about it. There's no kind of fakeness about it. He feels that it's very authentic and he really seems to like it. Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's fascinating. So, so basically kind of going through that whole rabbit hole of like looking into those guys, then you just showed up at an Orthodox church. You just take the, you just take the plunge, what'd you do? I get it. It was kind of that. Um, I guess, you know, um, I guess what really tipped me over was, um, my setfather, uh, suffered from, it was suffering from dementia. Uh, he, he was a much older man. Um, he passed away in, uh, he can his 90s, uh, early 90s. Uh, and, um, uh, I came back, I came back from university. I was at university at the time. Um, and I, uh, I dropped out to kind of help my mom. Uh, and there was a point where I was like, uh, you know what? Like, you know, I, I kind of, I, I've been wanting to. I've been kind of having this, you know, inclination to go to church and stuff like that. But there was one time where I was like, no, I'm just, I'm going to go do it. I got, I got time, I, you know, I'm in the area. There's, there's a, there's an orthodox church very close by to this, the house I'm staying at. So I'll just, I'll just go and I walked in, um, uh, tend to the service, uh, had no idea. Um, I think what to do. Uh, I bowed a bunch of times, never crossed my soul, because I didn't know what to do. How to do that. Um, I didn't know like when, uh, when, uh, you know, like a whole bunch of stuff. I still don't. No, I, I avoid, uh, I, I, I think I, uh, I tried to, what is it? I tried to, I crossed myself and just the icon at the entrance, but I don't, I'm still, I'm trying to, I'm scared of doing it wrong. So I don't go to the icon of Christ and the fair. Of course, yeah. Uh, cause I usually, I, I don't, I haven't, and recently, but I used to get there on orthodox time, you know, like 10, 15 minutes late. That's what, uh, father James calls it orthodox time, um, which is, uh, uh, as a Latin American, we're very, very familiar with that kind of schedule. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, um, and, um, but yeah, uh, and, you know, I just, I saw the iconography. I was, I was just blown away because, you know, I was, I took up drawing in 2017, you know, so I'm a fan of art. I'm not, I'm no good as an artist, um, or, you know, as every artist says, but I, I, I'm, I'm pretty honest about it. I'm like, if anything, I'm like a two-strike weight belt. Like, nothing to make money off of you. Like, nobody that, anybody that doesn't draw would be like, oh, that's kind of good. And then like, but an actual, you know, person, but you enjoy it though, but you enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So it's like, it's like stepping on the mats for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very much. Yeah, yeah. That's the only thing I can like in it, too, because I, like I've never been a catacumin because okay, I was born into a relaxed family, but I know what it's like stepping on the mats for the first time and, um, terrified. Like I was terrified. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And like, some of these people look scary. You go into a jujitsu show and some, uh, and you go, it's, uh, not, uh, not to borrow the phrase, but, um, what is it? Uh, there are some people in the North, I sure say I like tough, you know, like, you know, scary. Yes, I agree. You're in your pan, you know, like, you, they've entered it. Um, oh, yeah. So yeah. Um, okay. So, so how long have you been, um, so how long have you, I guess, so you went there, you visited and then like, I guess you met Father James, right? Mm-hmm. Talk to him. Yeah, I'm by his name. Yeah. I was disseminated with him, but like, uh, it's a small world, too. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. For sure. You know, just hadn't seen him in such a long time. And then the guy just finds me and says, hey, I'm doing jiu-jitsu. I'm like, are you serious? Um, just crazy. But, um, so how long do you take you to kind of, um, I guess, officially become a catacumain or kind of, uh, kind of start that process? Uh, so I, I guess I received my second blessing as a catacumain for, uh, I guess two weeks ago, three weeks ago, something like that. Yeah. Um, the, uh, the, what, you know, I guess it took me a couple months, but I was like, no, I really like this, like what Orthodoxy offers and the, and the ideas behind it and, and the, and, and the history and, and all of that. And especially, you know, again, stressing. I love the iconography. If I was going to go to something for two hours every Sunday, is there, there's no, I think there's no better place, you know, like if I, if I have to do that every two hours, I'd rather do it there because, um, and, uh, and I guess I received my first blessing last summer. So it's, I have like, I'm at two. I'm, I'm holding off, uh, being baptized or want to because there's, um, there's something that, you know, I, not that. I think there's anything wrong with doing this as a, you know, I, I've been told by people, uh, Father James as well. Like, I can, I can have an MMA fight and be an Orthodox Christian, but I want to do that before I'm baptized. Um, and, uh, generally, it's more of a, it's more of a, kind of don't know why I wouldn't say. I think you could probably like pull apart the logic of it to some extent, especially since I have nothing, I don't know any as much about theologies you do, but, um, there's just something about it sort of kind of the Socratic Damon idea where, you know, Socrates said he had a demon that told him to, and I guess that's probably not the best word, the best thing to call it, you know, um, but told him would always say, but always give him a lot of trouble if he didn't say what he thought to be true in some sense. Okay. And in some sense, I get that feeling from an MMA fight. Like, I want to participate that put my, you know, put, put my life on the line as close as I can, an approximate putting my life on the lines where I say, I mean, my, my body's not going to know the difference from what I ask other people that have done amateur MMA fights. The whole build up from when you sign the fight to right before the door closes and the ref goes go is just a slow and clean of terror. That's just like the most terrified you'll ever be in your life, right when the, right before the ref goes fight kind of thing. And then apparently that all just shuts off like, you know, it all goes away kind of, all that anxiety, all that terror goes away. And you know, I just, you know, I want to, I want to do that. I want to put myself in that position before I become baptized. And yeah, go ahead. Why do you feel that you need to do that before you're baptized? You find that it's incompatible with being Orthodox? No, I, I don't think it's incompatible. I think it's just a, a, it's more of a, I guess a test of the, quote, you know, I want to, I want to make sure to myself that I can, I will not deny Christ in some sense. I want to, you know, if I can, if I can put myself on one, then I could put other people on the line and it can also, you know, if some, like, if I'm in a situation like where somebody's telling me to step on an icon or something like that or renounce the faith, you know, I want to be able, I want to know that I can say no. I want, I want, I want at least a, some hints that there's something there that can do that can say no. And if you're that, you know, you feel like going through that experience of an MMA fight, the kind of very extreme, like taking you to the edge, like, testing of yourself is a way of kind of like seeing if you got the grit, I guess you could say it, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's a, it's a tough order to, you know, if you deny me before, man, I'll deny you before my father, that's a tough, tough, tough thing to live up to, but I would love to. I want to and, but I just, I, at the moment, I don't think I can, like, I'll, I'll be honest, like, and it, it, it, it shames me to say that, but like, I just don't think I can do that right now. As dark as it is, if somebody threatened my mom or threatened my friends or family, you know, and said step on this icon, like, there's a part of me that says, like, I would just repeatedly stop on that and tell them to drop the gun kind of thing, you know, like, it's, it's very shame. Like I'm not proud of thinking that or thinking I'd do that, but I, I just can't, say, wouldn't, you know, and, you know, I just want the, I want a little bit more proof before I go through with it in some sense. Yeah. Sure. And you know what? And that's, you know, that's what the catacook, that's what the catacuzum process is all about. Like, people think it's just like too many catacumans that kind of go, oh, you know, I'm just going there and read some books and I'm going to go to church and everything's nice and listen to the hymns and then they, they, they think the pungent, but they, you know, yeah, no, I think you need to kind of really think these things through. I think you're doing the right thing because you got to, you got to contemplate these big, ultimate questions, right? This is what it's supposed to be. I'm very much involved in adult religious education. It's kind of my background. So like my, my doctorate of ministry, which is not done yet, but that's, it's in that field, right? And, and very much training of catacumans and people coming to the faith. And one of the, one of the, my, one of the embassies that I have is the emphasis of death, but not death isn't like fascination with death, but rather the under, the orthodox understanding of that in order to become a real Christian, you have to accept death and understand its place, right? And you have to be ready for it. You can avoid it. But death nine culture is like the nail in the coffin for orthodox spirituality, right? That's why it's so hard in Western culture, right? Right? And so a lot of like catacisms and a lot of the way different priests approach catacism, I have found that I did actually surveys about this with for my, for my doctorate is that a lot of priests, they avoid the topic of death when they're catacombs and catacons. Okay, and that's interesting, right? It's like, oh, it's like, why, why did you avoid talking to people about that? And it's very much this kind of like, just logical things like, well, that's not a good sales pitch, right? But the faith is the cross. Right. Right. But in order to get to the right question, you have to go through the cross, right? Right. Right. I'll be your high company who wants to come into the orthodox faith, right? But in the, in the modern society that we live, that's not a great slogan for a post. It's a call to it's a call to martyrdom, right? And if you don't, if you're not honest with people, then you're really not really making, you're not really creating orthodox Christians, you're just creating, right? You know, secular people who decide to get baptized and continue to be secular, right? Right. Right. Well, I'm glad that you're thinking this way and I'm glad that you're using M.A. and like, digits in a way to kind of test yourself because they are, they are interconnected. Like, I love the analogy that you use. I never heard that. Like, we've been doing this podcast for three years now. And, and you know, we've never, I've never kind of come across that, that insight where you said, you know, that a fight is a mystery, but it is a mystery. Like we say, it's a chess game. We say, yeah, it's spontaneous. You know, you have to have inspiration. Like, there's stuff going on in real time in a fight in a match. I can't do digits. You know, you don't even understand because your brain is just like working on instinct, but it's also drawing on the fundamentals you have. And, but it is a mystery because not only do you not know what the other person is going to do next, it's just infinite. The combination happened and how the strong together. But you don't know how you're going to react to what you don't know. But it's an infinite, it's beautiful because every time you, you know, you slap in your bump hands, you know, you, you're entering into like a mystery and you don't know what the outcome is going to be until, until it happens. And then you know, but it's a little, you know, I see it as every time I roll with somebody. It's like, it's, it's a very specific and it's a very unique journey. And it's, yeah, and it's whether it's a five-minute-hour out. It's a journey. And you know, you never duplicate that because it's always different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always different. Even against the same person. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because the same person's evolving, right? Right. And even if they're not evolving, you're evolving, like it's just, it's always different. And that's why it's never boring. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? A game of chess has, I think, some like 10 to the 10, probably more variations. Yes. But the amount of movements and combinations are, there's only what, like, I think, 24 pieces. How many pieces do you need to do or a fight, you know, like it? There's more. Yeah. It's just, yeah, there's way more and way more positions. So it's like, multiply a chess game. So it's just, there's no way you're wrapping your head around that. All of that in some sense. Yes. I, yes. You just have to get in. You have to immerse yourself in it, right? Like you just have to do it. Yeah. You know, it's, and in the faith, it's the same thing. Like, you know, um, Patriarch Bartholomew, you know, who's a medical patriarch. So, you know, you're, you're attending an anti-Okey North of York church, right? It's under the anti-Okey Patriarchate, right? Right. We're the Greeks, the Greeks in Canada and the states are under the Echlemental Patriarchate, Kastanopoul, you know, in Orthodoxy for those who don't know, we're listening. There's different kind of jurisdictions. We're all the same faith, but it's kind of a decentralization of power. Patriarch Bartholomew, he wrote a really good book called Encounter in the Mystery. And it's all about this idea of like, you know, that the encounter with Orthodoxy, the encounter with the faith, it's a mystery. And because it's, and it's all immersive, right? So it's not just about learning five things or reading a book or attending just services or, you know, or just reading about it. It's like a number of things. And really, it's like swimming. Like, you can read all the books. You can about swimming, but until you're actually jumping the water and you experience it, you'll never know what it actually is. Absolutely. And it's just, it's hard to express, like, people ask me about Orthodoxy, people ask me about Jiu-Jitsu. And it's always the same kind of questions, right? It's like, what is Orthodoxy? Like, or what is it about? And the same thing, what is Jiu-Jitsu like? Right? It's really hard to explain both because you have to actually actively do it. You know, like, it's, yeah, I can give you a description, right? But it's like, unless you actually do it, you won't understand. And it's kind of, it's interesting that you were talking about this now, because like, I actually, I was, I was recently having a conversation with a friend of mine, who's Orthodox? You know, it's like kind of like getting back into the faith and starting to read scripture, but because they haven't been so involved in the church, right? Even though they, you know, they kind of grew up in it, because they haven't really, or maybe they didn't grow up in it. I don't know, like they, they weren't very, maybe cultural, you know, Orthodox, but not involved. So really, it's almost the same thing as somebody who, who is on the outside, I guess you could say, because they don't have a really kind of, they don't have that immersion. And so they're trying to go back to reading the Bible and they're having all these difficulties, because you know, they're watching these videos and they're all like Protestant videos and all these kind of like question videos about, and it's all the same classic, you know, accusations, it's like, oh, you know, call them and father and this and that. And I'm trying to explain, it's like about Holy tradition. And the person doesn't understand what I mean by Holy tradition. And I said, yeah, it's hard. I can't, it's hard to explain to you, even though we're both Orthodox, like in theory, it's hard to explain to you something like Holy tradition, because Holy tradition is like an all immersive, and even for you, as a person who's kind of kind of encountering it now, you can't know until you just, until you're in. Like, Holy tradition is everything. It's like scripture's just one little part of it. It's like, it's the hymns, it's the sacramental life, it's the fasting, it's the praying, it's, you know, feticism, it's the liturgical calendar, it's the history, it's the fathers, all it's everything. And it all kind of like works on you when somebody's in it. But when you're not in it or you're not immersed in it, it's really hard to understand it. So somebody hasn't done the Jitsu before or never even tried it or never even done those movements on the mats. Yeah, I can give them a book and say, hold it, or even here's a video. Get a George St. Pierre like Gordon Ryan to like do a lecture. It's like, I gotta do you any good, you know? And they're talking about side control, but you've never been underserved. Yeah, yeah, they're not like, if you're not in it, like they could describe it right on the board. Yeah. What's going on? But like that's not going to do anything, you know? Yeah, you won't know until you know, right? Like it's until you experience, right? Yeah. And that's what I love about both. Like it's just the faith, but also Jitsu is like, it's so immersive. And you really need to like, you really need to be in it to kind of understand, to feel it, right? I remember once we did a, we did an exercise where, you know, blindfold for Jitsu, right? Have you done that? Oh, no. No. Yeah, it's because like when you're rolling in theory, you should be able to do it with your eyes closed. Right, right. Not to say you have to. I'm just saying that. Right. Yeah. If you're a professional, a professional level, right? Like, you're a purple, brown belt, right? If you're a higher colored belt, you can see those guys. Like, yeah, they can close their eyes. They don't need to see what you're, like, you need to see if our standup game is it, right? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But if you're, if you're in down, like if you're on the ground, yeah, connected, these guys can feel everything. They know where your hands going. They don't need to see you. So you put a blindfold on and you can, you can see and you can do a lot in Jitsu, because they just know where the body's moving. But that's completely immersive. You don't need to actually see what your eyes. And that's another kind of thing that I try to, you can't explain that to people to say, oh, well, just just read this book or here's the approach way my vision college was where you'll know everything. They're good to go, right? It's, you can't do that with Christianity. And that's what I think makes people fascinated, but also turned off by it because for some people, you overwhelm me. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, like what I said at the start where it's like, I didn't understand Christianity, but I thought growing up that it was just a mental thing, right? You just sit in a, what is it, in the cues? For an hour or two hours, listening to somebody talk about morals and what this, what you should do. But that's, you know, and then now I'm like, no, actually, it's like you've made the mistake that your mind is separate from your body, you know, like those two, you know, in some sense are the same almost, you know. Or I guess, you know, maybe I'm entering in her, heretical territory, go ahead and throw me if I do. But what is it? It's sort of an analogy to the Trinity, right? There are three persons, but one essence in some sense, your mind, your body, and I guess your spirit or soul, maybe those are three different, three things, but in essence one thing, you know, if you take one away, then you fall apart. If you, if you, if you don't have all three, you're not who you are in some sense. - Yep. - You know, I know you are wrong. So yeah, and that I guess, you know, part of, you know, being, I guess, you did, you probably also mean there might be part of it that got me into orthodoxy because it was kind of an active thing. It's like I'm actually doing something with my body in some sense. And, you know, that probably led me there, but yeah. - Yeah, well, the embodiment is a big one, right? The same, what we say, incarnation, right? Like it's the theological term, right? But it's embodiment. - Right, right. - Yeah, it's, there is this, and you like, when we were kind of talking a little bit, leading up to today, to the interview, you know, you mentioned, you mentioned neo-platism, right? And that's exactly what it is. Like, plateenism is this kind of like idea in the ancient Greek world of us, there is a clear separation between the world of ideas, like the psychic world that we would say soul, but the Greeks would say like, you know, the mind, right? - Right. - And the body, right? What is physical? And then the body is seen in a negative sense, and the body is the tool of the soul, right? And neo-platism is just kind of like this resurgence of plateenism infecting, you know, kind of medieval Christian theology. And it's heretical because it directly attacks the incarnation. - The Trinity too, yeah. - Of course. - Because it's, of course. It all, it's hard to have a Trinity when you're like every, there's only one at the top kind of thing. It has the one idea, right? Or some such idea. - Yeah, but especially the incarnation of Christ, you know, coming to the world, because it's like, what is the point of the incarnation if not to sanctify and deify flesh? Like the, right. And the physical world, like the sanctification of time and space. So there's this kind of like, it's crazy that you have so many Christian groups, even to this day, that espouse neo-plotonic theologies. Like, you know, God is up there somewhere. And we're down here. And you know, this is, and depending on the, on the Christian tradition that you're from, you know, the two don't really touch. Like, or maybe you get messages once in a while, right? I mean, it's miracle. But really, you know, we're down here. We're like in the mud, we're in the crap. And you know, sometimes we get glimpses of the divine, but they're not really kind of connected. Whereas for your thought, it's like, no, it's like, you know, the physical and the spiritual are interwoven together. You're not, you're not a body and a soul. Or you're not like, you know, your body, your soul is not two things in one container, right? You are, you are a living soul. You are a living human being, like, right? And those two things were never supposed to separate. The fact that they do, because of death is, you know, is a consequence of the fall, but it's not, it's not supposed to be, right? And so there's a very orthodoxy has this, where it's like, there's a big emphasis on the physical, sanctification of things. That's why we bless our homes with holy water, right? Right, right, right. You know, that's why we have a sedicism. I ask you, why we involve our bodies in prayer, prostrations, right? Right. And you cross things like physical ways of praying, as opposed to like what you said before, like a lot of groups that were like, well, it's all up here, something you think. And for us, it's like, no, it's like something you live, you do, like, it's lived out through your body, right? Right. And Jiu Jitsu is very much the same thing. You can't get around it. You can't learn it. You can learn it. You can watch instructions. You can do that. But until you actually go, like, get onto the mats and work that stuff out physically, you won't really know it, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's why I find a lot of people like, well, this is why like a lot of people who do Jitsu, or tend to be religious because they're not. Like, there's different types of Jiu Jitsu. But I find that Christians who do Jitsu really love Jiu Jitsu. Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a really good accompaniment. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I have a, I have a medical Christian, not just one, but a Christian, but other Christians. I have a medical Christian though, who said, oh, man, I really find Jiu Jitsu at odds with my Christian thing. Yeah. Oh, you're the dog. Yeah, yeah. They might mention some with, what is it? Depending on the gender, like if it's a man though, they'd be to play the co-with it. But I think it might just be a cultural thing, because you know, it's mostly older people that I've heard, you know, like, maybe the girl should get away from it. I don't know. I don't know what your experience is. It could be a cultural thing. Sometimes, like, there could be concerns as far as males rolling with women. I don't know if you're going to be able to do it. But that's just, that's just a personal preference. I think, like, as far as like, is it a religious, you know, prohibition, at least from an Orthodox point of view, not to do that? I don't think so, because everything can be respectful, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's like, no sports, no anything, right? But we also respect if somebody doesn't, you know, like, you know, I as a priest usually don't roll with women, right? I have rolled with women, like I've rolled with like a few women, like I know really well, no like sisters, and like, there's like a family member's thing at that. But generally speaking, I don't, just because from a respectful point of view, like I'm a priest, you know, it's like just if you don't know somebody and because you get to, kind of, like, intimate thing, but because it's such of those quarters, right? And so it's good to know. And also because I'm a really big guy too. Yeah. Yeah. Like James said, you're like six four. Great. Yeah, I'm six four and a half. I'm like three or a pound. I'm like, I'm a big guy, right? I'm not rough at all. I'm quite gentle. But at the same time, it's like, okay, most girls are going to be like not even half my sides, right? So I don't know how beneficial would be for them to. Yeah. Yeah. But some do. And but that's a personal preference. That I really just require it. I don't think it's, you know, considered to be inappropriate for say, right? Like anything in life, like it depends on, you know, how you approach it, right? Nice. Well, yeah. So now you mentioned. that kind of like looks almost like an hour dude. Conversation. Yeah, absolutely. But so where do you see? So I guess kind of to wrap up or to kind of come closer to a close of our conversation. So you're still a catacumain. You mentioned that you would like to kind of work towards doing kind of a May fight, you said. And then so have you started the process of that already? Or is it something that's still far off in the future? If it's I guess it's still far off in the future, but I would say probably maximum year and a half. I have I have you know blue belts. I probably have as much experience wrestling. I have a little bit of a little shaky. It's because that probably gives more I have more space between mistriking and my Jiu-Jitsu. But I think you know I could get that where it needs to be in a couple months. Do a point kickboxing fight. See if I can just win with my hands or at least survive with my hands. And then I would prepare for an MMA fight. And you know I think I think it probably just take me a year to be ready for that. Yeah. My my you know my was it physical conditioning is is there for the most part. You know you never always has physically conditioned as you want to be. But I think I think it's there. I see you maintain it. Well that's not that far. And you know as far as catacuminate goes like that's not bad either. Like I got timeline like that because most people think well depending on the church you go to and you know different jurisdictions like that you know some people their catacumins for like a month and they're between Orthodox. But let's not forget that in the ancient world. In the business. Yeah. For years. Yeah. Long time it was three years. It fluctuated but generally speaking that was the rule. So you know even my catacumins usually are usually over a year which is a lot for modern orthodox churches right. Especially Greek ones. But you know you need time and there's nothing wrong with taking your time and to think your journey slowly and parallel to this kind of goal. Yeah and that's awesome. So let's say everything goes well. Last question I promise. Let's say everything goes well and you know you have your your fight. And I think I think from what I gather from what you told me regardless of the outcome of the fight like whether you want to lose it's the point to get into the ring and do that like to bring yourself to that point right. Absolutely yeah that's a good idea. You know like I would you know I'm going to ask my my parish. I'm going to ask some of the family members to pray for me and my opponent you know like of course. This isn't about this isn't about winning or even hurting the other person. It's just about you know the other self yeah. Yeah to see this self yeah nice. So assuming that you know you get that point do that then afterwards would you would you have you thought beyond that like would you are you planning on just doing it like once just for the experience. Well were you planning on to continuing that down the road. Yeah yeah just just once for the experience. You know yeah I don't think I kind of want to get away from striking generally and that's kind of why I'm off and on you know like it's it's not good for the head generally speaking you know I you know I try to offset it with a good diet and some eating plenty of fish but you know that's only going to do so much you know running and lifting weights might offset it to some extent but it's just you know it's like I might end up like my stepfather. Yeah yeah you want to be careful yeah and then that's okay so back to your tips after that. Yeah yeah no straight yeah yeah that's probably all I'm going to do after that and yeah nice well Kevin you know what it's been an awesome conversation with you. I think I think we'll kind of wrap it up there I think it's a good place to wrap it up because we can talk for hours. Yeah but I really enjoyed hearing your story and your journey I wish you I don't say luck because I don't believe in luck so I'm not going to wish you luck. That's grace right that's right that's right. That's right. That's what I was going to be with you and I know you will be and that you're going to continue on your journey. You're in good hands with Father James is a good guy very very nice man his wife Jennifer Korea and and he's like you know he's he's a good person and I think you you have a good guy there you know it's like anything just like in jiu jitsu it's good you have to have a good instructor right. He's a good person so I do pray that you're gonna that your journey's going to continue you know stay in touch like let me know how it goes. Absolutely. Let me know how the fight goes like when I will send you a video if you're interested. Yeah I know before it happens me like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but I will keep in touch and yeah like I wish you all the best for your journey now. Thank you thank you thank you Father Ted and thank you for having me. Yeah wonderful so and everybody else thank you for joining us thank you to Kevin thank you Father James for reducing us and we will see everybody in a couple of weeks entering into the great Lenton fast and so I'll say to everybody as well those were Orthodox you know have a blessed Lenton uh Lenton journey leading up to Pasquit Easter and even to to all the other Christians who are also gonna be preparing for Easter as well so don't miss everybody and we'll see everybody in a couple weeks take care everyone. You have been listening to the fighting priests feel free to download us on Spotify, Apple iTunes or anywhere else you get your content check us out on Instagram at the fighting priests and if you have any questions feel free to email us at the fighting priests at gmail.com until next time keep training the body and the soul.