S3.Ep.17 Charged With Crimes They Did Not Commit

Sometimes you choose courage and at other times it's forced upon you. Courage and Ravald is a podcast series where you get to listen to insights, discussions, conversations and stories from people from all walks of life. You'll be served with the dollops of courage, resilience and strength here to come along and be educated and inspired. You just may find new ways to flex your own courage muscle. My name is Sauna Turnock and I'm your host. Today I interview B, who was born in Mississippi and now lives in the Silicon Valley in California. B is a product developer for Netflix and is described as a diamond speaker. They are talented communicator and expert in diversity issues pertaining to women and build successful product and engineering teams. They help people find their fit in IT and are passionate about LGBTQ+ issues. B's background is in product development and creating strong cultural work environments within tech companies. Today, B and I catch up. Not to talk about B's work or passions, although we do, but something deeply personal. B was charged with multiple crimes they did not commit and had to go to trial to fight for their freedom. Did they go to jail? Listen to this powerful story and find out for yourself. I caught up with B online. It's a real privilege to be able to share these inspiring podcasts of courage with you. The work undertaken takes many hours to put together and is self-funded. Become a courage and rabble patron on Patreon and not only will you be supporting the podcast, you will also be helping yourself by investing in your own courage. Get access to pre-release episodes and Patreon specials. It's easy being a patron and the first year is less than two coffees per month. Cultivate and flex your courage muscle by signing up for a one-to-one growing to my courage program and grab your very own journal. You grow your courage muscle by activating it. Listen to the podcasts. Grab yourself the courage journal. Sign up to the grow into my courage program and become a patron. After this episode, head over to courageonrable.com. It's all happening there. Go into your courage today. B, welcome to courageonrable. I'm so happy to be here. I'm glad you're here too. You've come on the program to share a story with the listeners about a challenging time in your life which began in March 2002. You were charged with multiple crimes which you didn't commit. What were those charges made against you? It was a couple of different conflite things. Actually, maybe if I just give you a little background of what happened and then kind of correlate that to the charges. So essentially, in 2002, I was 16. Yes, I was still 16. And I worked for my aunt's company which is this apartment community. On the weekends, I would go into the office and do paperwork for them. I would input the do some data entry, put those forms in. So the most part, this was just to help facilitate payments, various vendors for these apartment communities. One day in 2002, I'm in the office, the fire alarm started going off. And of course, I leave because I'm like, well, it's a fire alarm. This is a big deal. So I take the stairs down. A whole bunch of fire trucks come in. I get in my car, I go home. And in a couple days later, I get asked to come into the fire department to enter some questions. And to the end of that session, I was arrested. And so the arrest was for Arsene as well as attempted murder based on the fact that there were people in the building as well. And if I remember correctly, there were two or three counts of that because this was for each person who was actually in the building and then also a destruction of property. But all of these were felony charges. And there were all things where I could potentially be charged as an adult and not a juvenile. So it was a very terrifying experience. Absolutely, that's very serious. So there were other people in the building. So why kind of evidence do they have to or evidence that they thought they had that they could lay those charges on you? Yeah, it's really interesting. So how the building was worked out is that there are a lot of businesses in this building. I was on the fourth floor and I guess the fire broke out on the third floor. So they were like, you're the person closest to the floor. So that was like part of it. Then they were just like, well, you're a young person, you're black. At the time, I was a young person who had messed around a little bit. So there are some stuff that I had done a little bit of shoplifting and things like that. So they were just like, well, obviously you did it. And I was just like, whoa. So you think I went from shoplifting a pair of sneakers to trying to kill three people. That seems like a bit of a leap. Yeah. So it's quite circumstantial then. It really wasn't actually when we actually went through the trial. So first of all, I was so fortunate because my community really came together. So my dad is a minister. My mom was a social worker and also I worked for the city and the county for a lot of different roles. And so a lot of people really came together to kind of crowd fund money for my attorney. My attorney, she was a rock star. She knew she was just like, this is super circling and she'll and she remember the first thing she told me. I don't even worry about anything because the only thing we really have to worry about right now is making sure that they only charge you the juvenile because if you're in a juvenile court, any judge is going to listen to who you are and they're going to really believe you. And so that's the first thing she focused on. But when we were actually in the trial, the fire people who investigated came in and they were supposed to be showing proof that there was evidence that I did this crime. And one of the pictures they showed was actually just them doing like thumbs up and like, you know, around the scene. And I was just so embarrassed for them because I was just like, so it's like not only you charging me of something, I don't think that I did. But like legitimately, you have embarrassed yourself further because this is in your evidence to somehow convince me. That's rather mon-blowing. And what did the quotes say? What did the judge say? So it was really interesting because, well, and again, so the community came together. I mean, I had teachers, my softball coaches. I had folks coming out of the woodwork saying, you know, I will testify for you. I will make sure people know who you are in the quality of your character. And so at the end of the case, and it was really interesting because only reasons I wanted to talk about this is did. Technically, I was not found guilty or not guilty. And so in juvenile court, there's this notion, like it goes to this notion of like judges and the power judges have. And so the judge goes, you know, there's really not any evidence to prove that you did this, but you were there. And I remember this very clearly because he said, but you were there. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you probation for like 12 months or whatever. You have to check in with his officer and you have to do this number of community service hours. And if you do that, I will basically strike this from your record. So the official state of that is called under advisement. So basically, I was there. No one could prove or even had evidence that I did anything, but for that basically, for those next 12 months, I had to be perfect in order to make sure that, you know, the judge wouldn't decide to do something to me. That's really remarkable. But did they end up interviewing the other people that were in the building working at the time? Yes. And in fact, oh my gosh, this was one of the craziest people in the room. So there was like two guys and I think one woman and the woman, she was like hysterical on the stand. And she basically was just like, yes, I can't believe I'm almost died. And like whatever. And it was like really weird. But my, of course, they were asking her practical questions, which was, did you see anyone? Did you see anything suspicious? And as it turns out, she actually did see something suspicious. She's like, I noticed that one of the doors was pop open and I thought that was strange. And I was just like, okay, well, if you thought that was strange, the door was popped open, why didn't you close the door? Right? Why didn't you do something to make sure the door was no longer open or something like that? But basically, no one indicated that they saw anything, saw like a specific person or they understood how the fire started or anything like that. And the only thing that ever came up was this idea that the door was popped open at one point. And so that potentially was what, you know, like whoever the bad actor was, maybe they did that. Did that chick for fingerprints? You know, and even in the case, basically they just explained, well, you know, we know what kind of a seller was used. We know all these different things. And the case really was, you were in the building, other people who were in the building, you seen very, like the most likely person who would have done this was basically the entire case. Although one of the things that was very interesting to me is later on, so my aunt, of course, who worked there and she actually still works for the same company, right? Because, you know, my aunt's a rock star. She found all of these records of people who were disgruntled employees and one person had even specifically said, I'm going to burn down the building, right? And so they never even investigated that person to see if he actually did try to burn down the building. That's remarkable. So you were 16? How long did the trial last full? So the actual trial, so one, I was pending trial for about, for almost four months. And then the actual trial was only a few days. Actually, I want to say it was more than one day, but it was definitely not like a week or something like that. It was just like a couple days. And then I was under advisement or like what I like to call, which is basically like a modified version of parole for 12 months. I guess I want to find out from you. And this is if you can recall it is your 16. You've done some things, but you certainly didn't commit this crime. What was going on in your mind at the time? Do you feel really like a sense of injustice? It was, so there's a couple of different things. And actually, it's so funny because I feel like I had actually talked about this case at all. The first time I ever mentioned it in public was actually last year because it's still, it feels so embarrassing. And it also feels so scarring, right? Because one, I was like kind of this kind of rock star student who has a illness like a salary to pass and had this potential. And so I had never had anyone. And even as a black person in America, I never really had people tell me I couldn't be great, right? And so to kind of have these people make this decision that I could do that first was super scarring. I remember like the shame and embarrassment I felt is like even being associated with it. And so just like I had no hope, I assumed because that's be truthful. Like most black people in America accused of a crime and it actually put own trial for it, the trial does not usually end up working out very well. And so I was really starting to think, "Okay, well, if I do go to juvenile court, what does my life look like?" You know, if I end up in a facility, will I ever be able to go to college? And then I assumed, I even at that point, like I still had to do all my college applications at that point. And I had really kind of made the assumption that I was not going to be able to go to college, that I was definitely not going to be able to go to the site to college, is that I was on track to go to you before this. And then I was trying to think about like, what path was going to be there for me? I've gone from being with the thought process of I'm going to be an attorney, or you know, I'm going to be an engineer to, "Okay, well, if I can just get any type of job after this, like, that'll be a good thing." And in fact, I think, you know, it was that loss of hope that was the hardest part, right? Like I just really, I didn't really know what this meant for me. And it was really hard to kind of go through that and try to continue to, because like my mom would always say, "Well, it's going to work itself out." Like, you know, we have a really good case, we have a really good attorney, you know, you're going to get off, and then you're going to go to college, and then you're never going to do anything ever again in your entire life, because they're using this against you. And obviously, I told you, "Don't mess up." And I was like, "You're right. This is a full-fledged life lesson right now." That is, it's massive. I mean, attempted murder far out. I mean, as an, you know, as an, speak, attempted murder, you've got to double weigh me right there, aren't you? And it's actually really interesting to me, because it also made me reframe so a lot of times, when I think you hear activists talk about the legal system and how the legal system is really broken. This is a great example of it. The district attorneys, those folks had the opportunity to make a decision about my future. And when they were thinking about my future, they were thinking, "Well, we're just going to charge this person with every possible, maximum possible crimes," right? And think about that, right? So let's pretend another human, not me, but someone who actually did do this thing. They're making a decision about a 16-year-old at that time, but they're not worthwhile. Like, there's no redemption for them. And I think that's the scariest thing when I started, like, really starting to investigate and start understanding things, especially as I've gotten older, is that that doesn't make sense. Like, a district attorney can't make the decision for one person over here. Oh, an actually interesting story. When I was going through this whole process, another person who I went to school with, which was a very young white guy, same class, very rich family, he'd actually gotten drunk, took his car, told it, like, put it into another person's car, caused severe injuries and everything like that. They never even considered putting him on trial as an adult. He immediately went to do an out court. And two, when it was all said and done, he ended up with six months probation and he almost killed someone. Like, he legitimately did it, and he was illegally drinking. And so I remember talking to him about this job, because he was like, "Oh, what'd you do? Like, I can't even imagine you did anything, and I was like, that's because I didn't do anything." And he was just like, and I told him what my crime was, he was like, "Dude, I actually did what I did." And, you know, like, no big deal. And he actually ended up going to Ivy League school. His first sucks though. He's totally a complete mess up in life now. But it was just like this really interesting juxtaposition, like this real life lesson that I learned that my black body might be judged very differently than his white body. Yeah. And that's, you know, with what's happening in the non-stights of the moment, you know, that happened to you a number of years ago now, yeah. And it's still going on in various forms today in the United States. Does that, does that time bring things up for you now with what's happening in the non-stights? Yeah. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to be here and talk about this, right? Because one, I'm a really successful technology professional now, now, right? And so when people look in my life, they go, "Be well, you went to the best schools, like I went to Ivy League type schools. I've now worked at some of the biggest, most well-respected technology companies. People really look up today." And they assume that my life was like this really easy, simple path. And I'm like, actually, no, not at all. Like I've been through a lot of stuff. But it also, it's, it's tricky for me when I hear people talking about, well, why didn't that person, you know, listen to the police or if that person had just done this thing? I am living proof that you could do everything right and then still be completely in the hands of the justice system and your life could be over. And so it's very important to me to kind of like, you know, for us folks who have been able to convert this into a success story, to make sure people understand that that's the perseverance, that that is through the fact that like I know what that looks like. And it also means that when I think about the world, I think about everyone's potential. If people could look at young people especially and look at their potential, look at what they could become instead of focusing on their skin color or focusing on their tattoos or focusing on one of all those different things, I think we would all be much better, right? Because if those attorneys, if I could talk to those attorneys and that those firemen who, you know, decided that I must be the bad guy, I think that they would be pretty sad to know that all that I've worked up done, all the things that I've done would not have happened if they'd been successful. Hmm, absolutely. But the flip side of that though, who knows? You know, you still might have been determined. Do you have a sense of determination about you? And do you think also the support that you got from your family would that have pulled you through if you did go to jail? It depends, right? The problem is though is that depending on the types of charters you have and how your record works out, that follows you forever. I sent you like a, I was like, oh, look at this example of my case what it stated. One of the reasons I actually had to contact the Shelby County government and get proof that my case had been resolved was because I was going to do application for the TSA so that there's like this, the trusted traveler program so that you can go in and outside in like to the special line. So it's called TSA pre and then you can also do the global entry program, which means that when you come back to the United States, you can get in more easily. Well, every single time I go through any type of federal system, this pings up on my record, right? Which means that there are certain jobs that I actually wouldn't be able to get just for the fact that this shows up on my record. I'm in the process of hiring an attorney to see if we can actually get this completely removed once and for all, but that's the thing. So the thing about that is that even with determination, these types of things follow you for years. And the thing that I really want to make sure to to note here is I was literally not convicted of anything, right? And so I'm a very lucky case that it's much easier for me to convince those different organizations and systems because it's so clear I wasn't convicted of something, but had I actually been convicted, it would be a different thing. I wouldn't be able to have TSA pre, I wouldn't be able to have global entry. There are numerous jobs that I wouldn't be able to have. And so even though there's that what if my trajectory would definitely be hampered in so many different things that I might want to pursue. And even from a technology perspective, so I work in a technology industry. I remember when I first got into technology, I didn't pursue any types of companies that worked with airlines. I didn't do any types of companies that did any type of defense types of things because I knew specifically the delivery's off, high likelihood that I would not, that one of those things would come up and that would follow me. And I didn't want to risk that. Yeah, fair enough. You're quite wise in your selection then. It's not you planned where you wanted to go. Something that I've been talking about with a lot of my friends is the fact that as a black person, you do have to plan so much more thoroughly, right? Because there is like, let me make sure that I kind of go for this job or this industry or this type of thing because you know that there's going to be like this potential pushback in harm that can come into other spaces. Absolutely. I'm curious to know, how did you select your lawyer? Did you say early that you would designate this particular lawyer? Basically, my dad and my mom were just, like I said, they were super well connected in the community. And so they had a sense of who they could kind of reach out to who might be a good example of someone to go with. And then obviously, once they talked to her, it was really great because like my family was super poor. And so like even though we crowd sourced like different fun and things like that, it still was like, okay, well you have to pay up front. And so it's just like, well can we like do a payment plan? Like we tell her gonna hit you up. We really get a part of it. But yeah, no, she was super flexible and she was just really great. She was just like a great partner because when you're going through these sets of processes, it's so easy to kind of get down to yourself. And because she was so wise and she knew so much, it was just really, really easy to kind of trust that she had it. As long as I shut up and they do anything to mess up her case, she was like, I got this. I don't even need to use anything. Fantastic. I love it. So when you were there, you lawyer cleavage spike on your behalf. And this was in the juvenile system if you were jailed. When you turned 18, then that would have shifted you through to the adult system anyway, right? Not necessarily. So it depends on your state. Juvenile law is very complicated. So different states have different rules. So for instance, in the state of Tennessee, I most likely I would have potentially stayed in the juvenile system until I was 21. And then they could have potentially like shifted me. It depends on where it worked out because the potential outcomes of the case. For instance, even in Tennessee, I believe they also could put you in a situation where you have to be monitored until you're 24, which also would have met that I couldn't leave the state of Tennessee. That would have had to have permission and things like that for those types of things, even once I was out of the system. What if you learned from that experience, you know, about your work, about who you are as a person? So interesting. So we're talking right now and yesterday we found out that chat with Bozeman died, right? And it reminded me of kind of something that I try desperately to do, which is to make my life meaningful, right? And to create a legacy that is worthwhile because like to some extent, having gone through that experience and being able to kind of come out of it and not have gone to jail and things like that, I am so lucky. It almost feels like it's a bonus life, right? You know, I got like an extra life card, which most people don't get. And so what really came out of that is like this desire to be really good at what I do, but also translate that into other people, right? I'm product manager and I mentor dozens of younger product managers in helping them get into the field of special. especially women and Black and Brown and Asian folks as well. And then also that means I give back a lot. I'm on the board of two large nonprofits and the things that I really, really care about are trying to create a world that is more equitable and also create a world that treats Black women much more effectively. And so I'm on the board of the YWCA of Chicago and also on the board of Powerbound Health and Chicago as well. And so my wife and I, we spend so much time giving back and trying to kind of mentor other young people and helps them understand how these different systems work and how to be successful despite how those systems might treat them. And so that's kind of been my life's work. It's weird because professionally my life's work is to how to make multi-billion dollar companies lots and lots of money. But personally my life's work is how to kind of help people who look like me and have the same background as me get into those spaces so then they can then have be empowered and be successful to do the same exact thing for the next generation after them. That's a perfect situation to be. I mean, you get paid good money to do that. And so that isn't a assumption. Then you've got the financial freedom to do what you want to do. I think it's a very good position to be and you're very fortunate. Yeah, and it's also what I tell all people I'm meant to be. I was like, you work really hard so that you can be empowered to do your life's work when you're ready for it. Because it just makes a huge difference. And in fact, my wife and I talk all the time. We're like, so at some point we're going to be over this for Brad Ray's and we're probably just going to go over to the nonprofit sector and just do nonprofit work that really just community based work to help out the people that we really think have the potential to really change the world. I think your story is pretty powerful. And potentially anyone in the situation that you found yourself in, there would be a lot of stress. A lot of stress. And to pull yourself through that, you know what I mean, you've got a lot of fear perhaps going on and they're going to pull through that. And so that takes a level of courage and resilience that in itself. And I have to have some knowledge. I was also like, I definitely was depressed and in fact, it's so interesting because one of the things I had to do in order to prepare for this interview was to sit down and try to like put peace back together everything that happened. What's really interesting about that is that I find that the more I try to engage, this is specific period of my life, there are a lot of blank spots. One of the things that my wife and I talk about all the time is that you know, severe depression and anxiety actually creates memory loss. And so I wonder how much memory I actually lost during that period until I got to a place where I felt safe again. Because like I remember kind of like the trial and then like dealing with the 12 months. But then my next big memory after that is actually when I was on campus at Duke University and it was my freshman year, it was like this freshman evening thing that they did. And so you had to wait in line to get a t-shirt. And that's the next thing I really remember. I also remember having with that memory like I made it, right? So it's like my body had finally kind of given up that fear mechanism and was like, okay, you can start to relax a little bit. - Yep. And there's these studies that actually show that about memory loss, you know, childhood trauma, trauma, PTSD, what it does to the memory. So you're definitely onto something there. - You mentioned Maya Angelou, someone you admire because of her courage. So for those people who don't know who Maya Angelou was, she was a poet, she was a writer, an activist, cultural influencer, and I've been told a many and she certainly fowled her way in the political scene, even not necessarily wanting to, she was there. How did you come to meet her? What does Becca Duke again? So when I was at Duke University, freshman year, she was our freshman speaker. I don't know if Duke still does this, but in 2003, Duke would have these speakers come in and she was a speaker for that year. And then they had a few different people who would be her escort for the day. And I happened to be one of the people selected to be her escort. I know I know that. I couldn't really form words. I was like, I just know I'm supposed to do anything that you asked me to do. That's all I'm gonna do. And it was really great because when this talk that she gave that day, she was always so good at kind of bringing herself into it. And so she talked a little bit about her life. And then she also happens to teach at the school not that far from us. And I just remember thinking like, man, like this woman who, again, is someone who looks like me, you know, who has a similar background as I do, she's staying up in front of all these like super fancy people. We're literally all just sitting there with baited breath waiting to hear the knowledge she's gonna give to us. That was like one of the most powerful things has ever, you know, kind of a curve for my life. Absolutely. One amazing woman. For people who haven't read her story, she went through so much in her early life. She's a fantastic example of strength and resilience and grit and just continually persevering in the amount of honorary degrees and doctrines and the life. And huge amounts. She spoke her poetry at the inauguration of presidents. I mean, you know, like, - Barma, yeah. Well, actually, no, no, no, I believe it was like, Bill Clinton, is it Bill Clinton as well? She's like a national treasure. But I also think it's very interesting because we know her so much in her sophistication as a literary figure and this professor, we forget about this sassy, amazing, beautiful, voluptuous, dancer and actress and who actually kind of captivated so many of the civil rights activists. And they were just like, we just want you to be around us. And they didn't know why. They were like, you're smart, but also like, you're just like this captivating human. And so that's the other thing that's very interesting about her. I think is that this idea that we don't have to be one thing, we can be anything. And that's what I love about her too. And also, I mean, I've never met her. I've just known her through books and just through video clips and the light. But G, she had a dynamic energy and her voice. I fell in love with her voice. I love her voice. I love her voice. Oh, if we could like figure out how, like a voice that sounds like that, like, you know, Siri and like Alexa, they're not, they're not. They're not like, you know, you need like a Maya. And she's like, "Way, it was really good to use some stuff." I'd be like, "Yes, I am going to go do that thing I told you to set a reminder for." And I think also, one of our collections is it's called, like, I wouldn't take nothing for my journey. I think that's the other thing that is very interesting about her is that she reminds us to be unapologetic. Take the space that we need, that we should honor the things that we've gone through and understand that those things are what makes us, and that we don't have to see this through the lens of other people in order for our journey to be worthwhile. Yeah, I guess you just have to believe that it's worthwhile. It comes back to self-confidence and belief at the end of the day. And she would be a fantastic person to know that she had to pull herself out of that quagmire. Yeah, you know how people love to do the icebreakers? Like, what's one person in history that you'd want to sit down and have dinner with? And I'm like, "It's always Maya Angelou." And they're like, "Well, I've known you long enough but I know that's going to be your answer." So you can do your first, we have to do your second one. And I'm like, "Well, it doesn't really matter because I'm still in Maya Angelou." But you had the opportunity to talk to it and you probably star struck, right? I mean, I basically said like seven words to her, but I'm sure she felt my energy because my energy was like, "You are a goddess among women." And none of us are worthy of you. Did she say anything to you? Just anything in any words of wisdom? Yes, it's where you're from. What are you studying? Things like that. It's like basic stuff. And you know, I think she knew that our role was just to get her point A to point B, right? So I don't really think that we were naturally engaging in that level. And it also, it was a very short period of time because we basically just kind of greeted her from when she first got to campus. You know, took her to like the various paths to get to the location and just hung out with her until they actually started. They'll spill probably only maybe 30 minutes. So it wasn't necessarily a month time that you really need to kind of get into like Maya Angelou level consultation. (laughing) Look, you just, you're there. You're fortunate energy. You're very fortunate. Exactly. I want to provide you two quotes from Maya Angelou. Let me know whether other of them resonate with you. And if so, why? The first one is this. If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. That's the first one. The second one is there is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside of you. And everything is the second one. And in fact, I think that's why I feel such a desire to make sure that my story is true. Like this comes from my mouth. It's so interesting because again, I think with the way the world is kind of operating, I don't know if it's COVID, the massive desire for civil rights change, but it is this idea of what is your legacy. And Hamilton says it, that's right, who will tell your story? And it's like this desire to tell my story to make sure people know me. Absolutely. I actually watched Hamilton two days ago. I really, really loved it. My daughter is 13, put me on to it. The way they put it together was just phenomenal. Great message, great acting, great, great music. You know, I've really put it together. I'm obsessed. I've seen it three times live now. And of course, of course, once it was available for streaming, I stream it too. It's just like one of those things, there's just so much of that. I mean, it's again, it's another story of someone who had to go through so much. And now, like when you look at the entire United States treasury system, you could think, oh, well, Hamilton gave us that. God really loved to have a focus on his wife. I mean, his wife sounded like she was a pretty amazing woman, one-to-you part. Yeah. And what she did, you know, like creating the first orphanage in New York, that's pretty impressive, along with many other things that she did. I agree. And it would not surprise me to see something like that, coming to fruition sooner than later. And especially because there's a huge focus on telling more stories about dynamic women that somehow we forget about. And then you're like, wait, Darren, she did more in her lifetime if you think about it to kind of really change the way because we wouldn't think of Hamilton if it wasn't for her. That's right. Let's Kate moving on. Which is for me to ask you to define courage. Let's see, what does courage mean to me? So courage to me is doing something that is against the grain or that is really hard, right? It's not something that comes naturally or easy. Like you actually have to persevere in some way to execute on it. That's a great definition. And are you courageous? - You know, I try to be. I definitely feel when I think of words to describe me first and foremost, I like to think of brave. And to be truthful, like, so I am a black trans non-binary lesbian, right? So like, saying that out loud consistently takes a certain amount of bravery. And so I do believe that's how I try to love my life. But I will say that just like anyone, there are moments of fear. Like I know that when I disagree with my manager or work, there's a chance that could come back to bite me. But I still have to continue to do it because when I think about myself, if I think I can help improve something in the world, whether it's work or real life, I get squirming if I don't do something about it. It's gonna drive me crazy if I don't stand up and say something. - Sounds like you're standing tall in your integrity to me, that's partly what being courageous is about. And you certainly do that, but you thank you so much for being on Courage on Revel today. I really appreciate your time. I appreciate you sharing your story for the first time. That's a really powerful thing to do. That takes a lot of courage. And you show on your resilience by being the person you are today. - Thank you, thank you so much for this podcast. I really have spent some time sitting with your podcast. I really love the concept of it, right? Because this is what we need. And it's so easy to tell the tragic stories, but it's very difficult to show that sometimes those stories can turn into the thing that you need to make you the greatest version of yourself. Be has certainly been through a lot and shows how support from others can build resilience and inner strength. I love how they'd turned adversity into a growth opportunity, which is now part of their life tapestry and success story. It is also a goal that be uses her tech wizardry to mentor up and coming young product managers to get into the tech industry. You'll find the contact details of B. Paygles Minor in the show notes at courageunravel.com/podcasts and make sure you look at series three. To find out more about growing to my courage program, or how to become a patron support of the program and receive benefits, head over to courageunravel.com to find out more. Thank you for listening wherever you are. If you like what you hear, please leave a Google review via courageunravel.com/podcasts or a review on your favourite podcast channel. Stay courageous, keep growing that courage muscle. My name is Sarna Ternock, and I'm your host. [MUSIC]