S3 E22 Repentance - What it IS NOT pt. 1

Hey there everybody, welcome out to another episode of Redeem through his blood. Scott Duffy here joined as always by David Duffy. How are you? Good. Good. Good. Happy birthday, by the way. You know, a lot of people ask me all the time, is David your brother or what's the relationship there? I probably sound younger. You look younger. Yeah, there's no question. You have to be a little brother. You act younger. Not only in the LDS community is that possible, but that is possible. It really is possible to have a nephew who's older than the uncle. Yeah. There's several stories about, of course, I love the culture, I'm not being derogatory or critical. But, you know, mothers, standing in the line of their son or daughter's wedding line and their pregnant, and you know, it's possible, I guess, that who knows. Yeah. You could have been my nephew who was older than me. Well, either way, it's just been an absolute fun experience over the last few years to be doing this with Dave. So Dave, when you turn 70, you know, I just had a big birthday, I just turned 60 a few months ago. Dave's 10 years and three months almost exactly older than me. And, you know, I did a lot of reflecting when I hit my big 60-mile stone this year. You know, I don't know about you, but I tend to look back and I think on my life, you know, I have this tendency to do personal inventories in my life right. So I look back and I assess where I am and where I'm going and try to make adjustments and so forth. What was your experience turning 70? Well, I've been thinking a lot about brother Matthews and I've been thinking about an old poem that he had. I should have brought it called The Old Crow. And in essence, the old Crow, the older it gets, the less he knows, that's just so true Scott. It just seems like the older I get, the more I know, I don't know. So I've been thinking about that and I played on my birthday in silence all alone in my room and didn't shed a tear or anything, but I probably came close listening to Alan Jackson. I love this, it's always been one of my favorite songs, but when you get 70, it even means more. You know, he plays a song, Alan Jackson, who's one of my favorite, called The Older I Get. And the chorus, I would love the chorus in this chorus. Those of you who are old ought to, ought to download this, put it in your playlist for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But he says, maybe it'd help you get out of bed. We are. I could use some of that. Anyway, in the chorus, it says, if they found a fountain of youth, I wouldn't take a drop and that's the truth. Yeah. You know, there's, there's of course things that I wish I would have done better than differently. There, you know, there's so many things that I could have improved on throughout my life, but I wouldn't want to go back and live it over again. I wouldn't want to go back and start over. I know that. So I, I think the older you get, the more humble, hopefully you become because the more you know, you don't know, I think maybe the older I get, hopefully the more wisdom. I hope I have just that comes out of experience more than anything. The older I get, the closer it seems to me that I get to my Heavenly Father, my Savior, Jesus Christ. I think that you, you just naturally begin to reflect more on them and your life and your life beyond this life, which is not only, not only humbling, but in some ways, sanctified. So I don't know. There's, there's all those thoughts and feelings that I've had this past weekend. When I turn 70, grateful, grateful. I think you get more gratitude, grateful for our count, my blessings, the anything come as a big surprise to you? Nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not really Scott. No, you just kind of anticipated it. Yeah, I didn't feel really any different. No, it just, just gives me pause for some more meditation and reflection of my life. And which I'm thankful for. You know, I think you said it, but, you know, and it's probably more so this way, as you get a little more advanced in years, at least that's been my experience, but just realizing how much I just absolutely do not know. Yeah. Oh, it's, it's really true. And for brother Matthew, for brother Matthew used to say that to me, and to share that poem with me, and we kind of talked about that, I remember thinking, wow, if he feels like he knows less, I know nothing, you know, and we're feeling that. I was probably in my early 50s when he shared that with me. Really? Yeah. And he was about 80. So anyway, that's, that's kind of my life. How's your life? Life's good. Life's good. Moving into spring here on the Wasatch Front, that's bittersweet for me. I didn't get quite. I've still got a lot of ski on the left to do this spring, but I haven't got quite as much as I'd like to have this winter, but that's a first world problem. That's for sure. You know, we're pretty spoiled too, aren't we? Yeah. Yeah, I just really hesitate to be moan anything in my life. I'm so blessed and have so many wonderful things going on within our family. I had a really cool experience. I got to sit right where you're sitting the other night and zander my oldest grandson kind of made a makeshift chair right next to you. And we watched the jazz game together, and I tell you, you know, those are just some of the most cherished wonderful experiences. As we grow older, that just means so much to me now. Well, I guess one of the best happy birthdays I got was from my grandson. One on a mission. One on a mission who wrote me a special email and expressed his love and gratitude. Yeah. So, yeah, you're right, grandchildren at our age. This becomes an important part of our life, but one thing I thought of when I said, said my prayer on my birthday was to try to think my Heavenly Father for my earthly parents, you know, that they would give me life, especially my mother who almost died when I was bored. You know, she had to stay in the hospital for three weeks because of complications in my birth. I guess I never knew that. Yeah, interesting. She almost died. She was on death's door when she delivered me, and I was in a, they describe it like a still incubator back in those days for three weeks. She couldn't feed me. She couldn't do anything. Huh. Anyway, so I'm grateful for the sacrifice. My older siblings, your dad could tell you probably more about that than me. I remember him telling me how Grandpa Derpy made him fix dinner or something, and he was still mad at me. Your dad was still upset that I almost cost his mother his life. That sounds like he's reminded me that a few times. Yeah. And anyway, I'm just really thankful that she was willing to pay that price. I was a blue baby. Okay. Yeah. And the cord was wrapped around my neck, and the cord had burst inside my mother. Yeah. The embellical cord. And she was, she was filled with infection and almost passed. I didn't know any of that. Yeah. Anyway, so I'm really thankful for her and, and all of them, my wife, my sweet heart and all of my family. I think you just feel more gratitude the older you get. So anyway, Scott, we've been talking a lot about faith, and maybe we should just summarize quickly here, faith, and maybe some of the questions we often get about faith. We've talked about faith in the general, faith in God, you know, faith in Jesus Christ, faith in prophets, faith in ourselves, faith, you know, really another word for faith is trust, trusting in them. And there's different levels of faith, I can just want to remind all of our listeners, you can never talk about faith as though I have it or I don't. You must talk about it and where am I at in my faith. You must always see it as a continuum, and that there are different levels. There's a hierarchy to faith, and it's true of all the principles of the gospel. I mean, it's just easy for us or human nature is that we think of things in terms of absolutes, as haves or haves nods, but you can't. Everyone has some degree of faith in the general. You wouldn't get out of bed if you didn't have faith. We've talked about that. So we've talked about the levels of faith. And I can want to remind all our listeners, "God has faith." I think it's just wrong to say that if you know all things, you don't need faith. I've heard that talk before. Well God knows all things, but faith is the power by which He created our world, by which He creates all worlds. Faith is not only a principle of belief, but it is a principle of action. I might know how to create a world. That doesn't give me, that doesn't automatically replace my faith. I may have perfect knowledge how to create a world. But if I refuse to act on it, I have no faith. Faith without action is dead. James talked about how you can believe, but if you don't have faith and you don't put it into action, it's dead. Faith is the power to believe, it's the power to act, and it is a principle, therefore, of power. So we talked about that in kind of the general, and then we talked about faith in Jesus Christ and what that means, and that's the first principle of the gospel, and you cannot put that behind repentance. This is of course mostly on repentance and forgiveness, and the key to really repentance is understanding what faith is and growing and increasing in our faith, to know that it's a gift of God, it's a gift of the Spirit, and to try to receive a more faith in Jesus Christ, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And if you try to put repentance before that, you'll just spin your wheels, commit the same sins over and over again, young adults and others end up in the bishop's office over and over and over again, confessing the same sins over and over again, and there's no progression in repentance, Scott. Well, it's not really repentance. It is not repentance, and there's no power in it. If you don't have sufficient faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so faith is the key and the life and the power, I think we ended last times maybe session or the time before, that if faith is not in repentance, it's dead. It's just dead works. If you confess without faith in Jesus Christ, it's all dead. Yeah, it's definitely not repentance. There will be no progress, and the miracle forgiveness cannot take place unless it's based upon faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Atonement. And then we talked to Scott about the difference a little bit between faith in Jesus Christ and faith in the name of Jesus Christ, which makes it even more specific, if you really want to get power. It's amazing how many times I invite our listeners to go look this up, how many times it tells us that we are saved by faith in the name, faith in the name of Jesus Christ. And that includes a lot more than just faith in Jesus in the general. That means he's more than just a historical figure, spiritual coach, great individual, or even how we see him, but it's faith in his character. It's faith in who he is, it's faith in the ordinances, it's faith in his priesthood, it's faith in, you know, your name is everything, your name, your name Scott represents everything. And to have faith in his name means so much more than just faith in him. And Elder Oak summarizes some of that in the book called in his holy name. So we talked about that. I think we introduced briefly the concept, which I'm so grateful for. It's a unique, unique phrase in the book of Mormon in the lecture on faith of Amulic in Alma chapter 34 when he's talking to the Zoromites and Alma's trustee companion. And after Alma teaches Christ and him crucified, Amulic comes in and teaches them about faith unto repentance, faith unto repentance, and I think he uses that term about four times. And I love that phrase that faith in Jesus Christ leads us to repentance. Everyone, everyone is some degree has faith, faith in something, but faith unto repentance has to be focused in Jesus Christ, in the name of Jesus Christ and his atonement. So I think with all of that, maybe as an introduction into repentance Scott, we are ready to kind of take it on. And as we talk about repentance and so most of the rest of our podcasts will be focused on the process of repentance. And I remember talking to Elder Anderson a little bit about this, is that I like to talk about repentance with the same outline as the lectures on faith and the school of the prophets took on the principle of faith. So in the lectures on faith, Joseph Smith with Sidney Rigden and Orson Pratt and others who kind of developed and wrote the lectures on faith, they took on three questions. And I think this is a principle that all of our listeners can apply in their gospel studies, Scott, is that when you study a principle of the gospel and that's how I love to study the gospel, I love to read the scriptures chronologically, I love to read them sequentially, I love that but mostly I love to read them thematically by themes or by principles. When I study the gospel, I try to use the same outline that is used in the presenting, the writing of the lectures on faith. So when they wrote that, they said we are going to answer three questions about faith. And I recommend that in any principle of the gospel we study, we ask ourselves the same three questions. Number one, what is it? What is it? What is faith? What is repentance? What is hope? What is charity? So when you study the gospel and you're studying principles, that's the first question you should answer is what is it? The second is how can I obtain it? How can I obtain it? What do I have to do or what do I have to know or how can I develop it? It's the how. And the third question is what are the blessings that flow into it or the promises? What are the blessings and promises this kind of provides motivation in some ways of being able to obtain it? What are the promises or blessings that flow into our life from that principle? I would maybe add a fourth question and that is why is it important? So as we go through now, as we move into the principle of repentance, we'll kind of follow something of that order. And again, the Elder Anderson's book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness, when we talk about repentance, I think it's really critical when you want to understand what it is, is first to understand what it is not. And I think that's true for a lot of principles of the gospel's God. To understand what it is, it's helpful to first understand what it's not. I learned that from Theodore Burton. When I was a branch president at the Missionary Training Center, Theodore Burton had given an amazing, our listeners can look this up and it was a BYU speeches by Theodore Burton. I can't remember the title of it, but it was on repentance. And Theodore M. Burton back in the 80s sometime gave this talk on what repentance is not. And he taught me really in that talk, that to really understand what it is, you can understand what it's not. So let's begin by defining it by understanding what it's not. Did you find the talk? Is it called the Meaning of Repenance? Yeah. 1985. That's it. Yep. The Meaning of Repenance. Yeah. So that is such an amazing talk. It's a, you can Google search that just to look up Theodore M. Burton. I just put in Theodore M. Burton and then what repentance is not and that just actually came up. So it's The Meaning of Repenance. That is one of the best talks on repentance that I've ever read to this day. You know, President Nelson is doing such an amazing job teaching it. But that still is a, for me, a go-to. understanding what repentance is not, and therefore understanding as he gets in and develops that talk to talk about what it is. Well, when Elder Andersen and I were beginning to work on this chapter in the book, I had presented some ideas and my thoughts and feelings and my outline and my quotes and and I had sent it up to him with the title. I suggested that the title for this chapter be the miss of repentance. That's how I that's how I taught it for years and you know in my classes at UVU and so I kind of chuckled and as I read his his new title he retitled it and he called it you know miss was just too strong of a word for him you know he's just so kind and so gentle as I think all of the 12 are really and so he sent he sent it back to me and he'd retitled it. The detours of repentance anyway and I think this is one of my favorite chapters of the book Scott it's chapter 13 in the book the Mind Gift of Forgiveness. But this this really as I taught this over the years Scott I thought I I I witnessed so many students have aha moments because they had completely misunderstood really what repentance was because they didn't know what it wasn't and anyway this is kind of a this is kind of a fun chapter and a fun part of this course. So let's just jump into it. Yeah before we do though Dave I just want to comment on this because this is one of those saying I don't think you know that you're your missionaries at the MTC and your students as they've gone through this and you know they've had that experience that aha moment that's available for us to I mean I don't care where you are in terms of maturity and how long you've been part of the church or how deep and strong your testimony is there may be some aha moments available for all of us here and so my invitation as we go through this don't just say I get all that and and assume and pass through pass pass pass by all of the things that we're about to talk about here I know you can fast forward but I'd recommend not doing that because it's been my experience and every time we teach this there's aha moments available to just about all of us so without a mind let's go ahead and proceed. Well this chapter is such an important one I think for ecleastical leaders. 100% you know my my experiences in the church in the ecleastical positions this is a chapter that I've been invited by state presidents and others to to actually teach to their council of bishops because there's just so much misunderstanding I think about what repentance is and what it's not and I think this this really helps clarify what it is when you understand what it isn't so I think the first one is is just really powerful and important and elder Nelson blesses hard I'm so grateful for how he has he has taught this but before him this was not always taught as strongly as he has taught it and that is repentance is not is not the punishment penalty or payment for sin Scott there's been so many people spend their wills because they thought that they were saved by grace after all they could do and they thought all they could do was that they had to work out their repentance which meant that they had to be punished for it they had to suffer for it they had to in some degree they had to make payment for it I mean Scott I I hate to admit this but my my early elementary understanding of repentance when I was a new seminary teacher honestly I'm sure I must have taught this because it's how I understood it until until I really got into the missionary training center and had to really learn about it trying to help young mysteries repent but I I used to teach that okay you're saved by grace after all you can do so how much of the sin can you pay for and I used to share the example of when my my mother caught me stealing lifesavers you know we went in I had worked at the dry cleaners you know they're in American fork and next to them next to the dry cleaners was this five and dime store sprouts ritz sprouts ritz they I think it said had a nickel and tin sense and we used to call it the old five and dime so anyway that was right next to the the cleaners and there's a boy I'd walk over there and brother crots the this the manager you know the store he always wave at me they were always so nice I was good friends with the the checkout ladies and then I'd walk down the candy aisle and I'd just take it a little pack of chocolate lifesavers and put them up pocket and walk out and it got to be I kind of got addicted on chocolate lifesavers so wait a minute chocolate lifesaver chocolate lifesavers do they make and they were four cents a pack do they still make those I don't think so man I think I'd be interested in oh they were so good Scott that's that's my addiction I feel like I childhood has just where it started yeah yeah anyway they were four cents a pack and I just put a pack in my pocket and I'd walk over the cleaners and go in the back and hide myself somewhere and eat the chocolate lifesavers well I was like in the third grade and first week of school that was the summer where I started that and first week of school Billy Allen and I were walking home and I said hey Bill I got I got I got to show you something and I figured out how to get some free lifesavers so I said Bill you just you just kind of stand out here and and I'm gonna get some lifesavers so on the way home as we were walking home I wish I shouldn't be laughing I'm sorry I walked in to grab grab a couple packs of chocolate lifesavers one for me one for Billy and I I went to walk out and Billy wasn't around and I was a little nervous so I thought well I'm gonna step in the cleaners till I can find Billy or I I didn't know where he went and as I turned the corner and I go into the dry cleaners there's Billy and the dry cleaners telling my mom what I'm doing Billy Allen is snitching on you I guess you know so Bill Allen I grew to be like I don't know six 10 this guy's a big man oh yeah he was he was a third he's starting tight end to be why you football yeah so he wasn't too worried about the saying stitches get snitches snitches get stitches he wasn't too worried no and he wasn't you know and I'm and I regret that I was such a poor example to him you know it's probably the reason he's he's really not in church oh yeah I'm sure that's exactly the reason he's good your lifesaver anyway yeah I love I love him he he was one of the first ones to wish me happy birthday on my birthday by the way really cool anyway there he has a my mother looks up and sees me standing in the glass doorway and she motions to me like this and she says Billy you you better go home and my mom just let me have it just let me have it I remember you know anyway I won't tell you all the details but she made me sit in the front crying my eyes out customers coming in and looking at me and and then when she had a minute she told me by the probably by the year and took me over to 5 and 10 and walked back to brother crots who was in our bishop rick by the way in their award the old seventh word and and anyway she said David David he's talked to tell you something brother crots and I confess stealing lifesavers and he said how many packs have you taken I don't know I don't know maybe a hundred I didn't know wow yeah he kept wondering why he was running out of chocolate lifesavers and none others probably yeah inventory anyway I think what's four cents times a hundred four dollars so my mother pulls out five dollars my mother pulls five dollars out of her purse and gives it to me and I give it to him and then she says you know you'll work you'll work you'll work that out you know you're you're gonna work that off you owe me five dollars well that was my that was kind of there's I remember one of the first acts of repentance after I was baptized and in the third grade and I used to kind of sometimes tell that story and say so how much of the send it I pay for yeah how much of the send it I pay for uh ten percent five percent two percent one percent I mean I had to pay something there had to be something paid. Well, if you're just going off mathematical, you paid 125% because you old poor you paid five. That's for the life they've been offered the sin. How much of the sin did I pay for? So I used to teach that, hey, you have to pay something and then tell you pay something, then Jesus's tomen doesn't really kick in. Scott, that's just false doctors. You can't pay back anything. Yeah. You don't man can bear it nothing of himself. I don't know why that scripture wasn't on the forefront of my mind back then. When you were in third grade? No, no, when I started teaching, when I was teaching this, I don't know why I was not more in tune with with how salvation and redemption works, but but man is nothing. And anyway, so I just you're saved by grace after all you can do. After all you can do means all we can do is repent. But there is no payment, no payment, no punishment, no penalty in repentance for sin. Yes, there may be punishment. Yes, there may be consequences. Yes, there may be some suffering and it may feel like payment, but it's not for the sin. There are natural consequences, Scott, that are the result of our sins. And that's right, that's good to keep us from from sinning more often than we do. But that doesn't bring forgiveness. That doesn't that doesn't put into our lives divine forgiveness or redemption. I mean just because someone's caught for murder and they spend the rest of their life in prison or even if they their life, capital punishment, if their life were taken, it doesn't absolve them of their sins. Only Jesus Christ can do that. And he paid for all the sins of all the world, all of it, all the sins, all of all the sins of all the world. And until someone I think really understands that, Scott, then they, it really holds them back from repenting because they're not sure if they're ready to make the payment that they think they need to make or pay the price that they think they need to pay in order to ask God to forgive them or for Jesus's atonement to cover them. That's a problem. Yeah, I think that one thing delays potentially delays so much potential repentance that could take place because of that fear, that misunderstanding, that fear that has attached to that can just be absolutely spiritually crippling towards us to us, Dave. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe we should look in the scriptures for just a minute. I brought up that scripture in 2nd Nephi. I think it's 25 Scott, saved by grace after all we can do. And I can tell you a story about that in Navu, standing on a corner and hearing this, this youth pastor, he was a youth pastor for a church when they were doing the open house for the Navu temple. By the way, what great news about the Kirtland temple and all the Joseph Smith problems. Yeah, that awesome. That's so that's so exciting. I just got absolutely excited when I heard that. When the Navu temple was built and we were having an open house, this young youth pastor standing on the corner and I was I was a Delta four. I was part of the security force. Delta four sounds pretty efficient. It was. I had an earpiece and a mouthpiece and I you know I looked I looked tough standing on that corner, try to scare away any any terrorists or bad people away. That's a sight to behold. I'm sure. And it was fun. Fun for me to stand there all day and listen to this youth pastor. Read from our own scriptures. Yeah. To put us down or to express anti-mormon views. And he he just kept pounding, you know, this scripture and it was so well I don't know I wouldn't maybe say fun. It was interesting and sometimes a little sad to watch how people would try to defend our faith arguing that we don't believe this scripture. And you know, this is a second E5 25 23 where we labor diligently to write to persuade our children and also our brother to believe in Christ and be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do. Well, I remember one young mother she had a couple of children toddlers and she had a baby in a baby carriage. Man, she she came by there and said we don't believe that. He says right here your own scriptures. It's right here in your own scriptures. And she said well we we have to we have to suffer we have to do things when we repent you know when we sin we have to pay for it. She was so she was such a great defender of the faith. But I remember thinking wow I'm I'm so sorry that she doesn't understand what she's really saying and how she is denying the Atonement of Jesus Christ by thinking that Jesus did not pay for all of all the sins of all the world. And I after standing there I was told I couldn't say anything to anybody really until after my shift was over when my shift was over and I took out my air piece and all that equipment put in my pocket I walked over this this youth youth pastor and apologized to him for what some people had said. And I had to explain to him nobody believes in grace and no one believes in more grace than we do. And I and he and I had a really interesting conversation and I took the copy of the book of Mormon that he had and turned to scriptures in the book of Mormon that talk about man can merit nothing of himself. How many times that's in the book of Mormon that we can merit nothing of ourselves and how the Atonement of Jesus Christ covers everything including children and unconditionally and how anyway we went through that all those scriptures and he said wow I okay thank you I didn't understand all of that anyway I don't I'm sure he didn't enjoy the church or necessarily change his his feelings towards the probably LDS but I didn't see him on the corner the next day and I I'm often wondered you know how many of us in the church misunderstand this this verse of scripture and what repentance really is so there's all kinds of different ways that you can interpret this verse we're saved by grace or it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do I heard but interesting interpretation this recently it was that after all we can do is focus more on the law of Moses than it is the gospel of Jesus Christ and it's saved by grace is focused upon the the pre- Moses and law of Moses and more post gospel of Jesus Christ so after all we can do is is something that related more to the law of Moses that they had very strict laws and those laws need to be obeyed well that's one that's just one way not my favorite way but that's one way that this can be interpreted if you read this whole chapter Scott and take all of it in context you know when he gets to the the second to the last verse read the second to the last verse in chapter 25 it's verse 29 Scott so this verse 29 and I'll be hold I say in to you that the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not and Christ is a holy one of Israel wherefore you must bow down before him and worship him with all your might might mind and strength on your whole soul and if you do this you shall and no wise be cast out so what do we have to do notice the word do if you do this going back to the scripture in verse 23 you're saved by grace after all you can do yep what's all you can do worship him that's all you can do that's I think I think that's what Nephi is saying all you can do means you worship him with all your might mind and strength and your whole soul that's all you can do and he says and if you do this if you do this you shall no wise be cast out and and I I have another cross reference that I'm gonna I think our listeners should put this cross reference by second Nephi 25 verse 23 and that's Alma 24 verse 11 so we go to Alma 24 verse 11 Scott let's read let's read that verse this is so in verse Alma 24 verse 11 you want to read yeah and now Now behold my brethren since it has been all that we could do as we were the most lost of all mankind. To repent of all our sins, what's all we can do? To repent of all our sins right here, right? So if you take out the parentheses, there's a pair of sins. Okay, so I'll read it without the parentheses. And now behold my brethren since it has been all that we could do to repent of all our sins. And the many murders which we have committed and to get God to take them away from our hearts. And I love that to get God to take them away from our hearts for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that He would take away our sins. What's all we can do? To repent. That's all we can do. Yeah. That's what Nephi is saying. You're saved by grace after all you can do and what's all you can do? To repent. To repent which means to worship. To means to fall down. It means to turn around. It means to come unto me, we'll talk about what repentance is in another podcast. But it means all of that. All we can do does not mean making any payment. It is not the penalty. It is not the punishment for sin. And for people to have any misconception about that will keep them from repenting. Repentance is worship. Repentance is moving towards Christ, turning around, putting their sins at their back and facing Jesus Christ and moving towards Him, loving Him, serving Him, worshipping Him. That's repentance. It is not punishment. It is not a penalty. It is not any zero percent of sin. And we spoke about brother Matthews who wrote the Bible dictionary. And in my discussion with brother Matthews about this, brother Matthews said, "David, we can pay zero percent. We cannot pay." And this is in Elder Anderson's book. We cannot pay one million of one percent of any sin that we commit. You just can't. You broke into my law and you're immortal. You can't make any payment. I don't care if you give your life for it. You can't give your life. You can't suffer enough for any sin you commit. No amount of payment, no amount of restitution. My mother paying five dollars for a four dollar fine did not pay for my sin, paid for the lifesavers, you can make payment to society. You can do all that you can do to make up for what you did. But you cannot make any payment for the sin or the breach of a broken law of God. Only a God could do that. Well, and a God that has fulfilled the events of the Atomative Jesus Christ who was sinless. Only a sinless divine being could do that. I just, I know, I hope some lights are going on right now in people's minds about, wow, you know, because honestly, it has been so misunderstood, I think. Oh, yeah. David, so if we just, let me just share some of my experience around this misunderstanding, you know, I think most of our listeners probably know and I know we get new ones in from time to time. But, you know, my life and David's life have seemingly had a lot of parallels, but there's been a lot of diversion between the two as well, you know, for example, you know, I spent a good portion of my life involved in sinning in the throws of addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction and much, much more, you know, since that repentance process has different from me. You know, I've been sober 25 years and it's a lot different today than it was then. But Dave, that's how I saw this. You know, this is how I saw repentance is in the past was, you know, I, and the problem with that is for people who have made what we, you know, big sins, little sins, even little sins can create and I hate to differentiate, but because all sins sin. But, you know, the big sins, little sins, I had thought that my sins, big sins were so big that there's just no possible way I would ever be able to work my way back. And I know I'm not alone when I think that I have to work my way back. That seems like an impossibility I give up. Well, working my way back has not, well, it has something to do with me, but way less, you have to make some effort, but it has way less to do with me than I thought it did. And what it does have to do with me has been totally rewritten in my mind and on my heart. It's completely different, completely, completely different. And I got to tell you, though, relief and encouragement, even still when I'm thinking about it, even in this moment, praise God for that understanding. Because that understanding has relieved me from the bondage of guilt and shame and all other things like unto it, that the enemy, the accuser would put in front of me and have me believe about myself. Well, think of the relief that I've had. Think of the relief that each of our listeners could embrace or could have if we were to just capitulate our belief or our understanding around the payment for sin. I can't pay for sin. I never have been able to. Never can and you never will. And it was never intended for me to. Sure. There are the consequences of sin. Sure. There's sadness and pain that comes into my life as a result of sin, but that is not punishment for my sin. It's direct result of just what we call, you know, I don't know what's natural consequence. There you go. Just consequence. It's just the natural consequences of sinning, of going against the light of Christ. There are consequences. You cannot find happiness in sin. You may find pleasure for a time, but eventually it's going to come back and they're going to hit rock bottom. Yeah. And even when you hit rock bottom, that's not any payment for sin. No. You know, when we read the scripture in doctrine, covenant section six, I think is verse 33, where it says, "Doubt not fear not. Look unto me in every thought." Right? And I read that now and I do look unto him and I try to do it more frequently. You know, but the point is is that as I do look unto him for that payment of sin, I'm my goodness. You know, here is Jesus Christ, paying for Scott Durphy's sin. Scott Durphy, I'm responsible and I will have to deal with consequences and so much other stuff. And there'll be some suffering, totally different though than it was before. But that's suffering that you experience in your repentance is not any punishment, payment or penalty for sin. And it feels different because of it. Absolutely. That's really a great point. So I'm not being at all critical. In fact, the quote of President of Kimball is in Elder Anderson's book, out of our respect for him, in Elder President Kimball's book, the miracle of forgiveness. For so many years, and I heard seminary teachers and priesthood leaders quote this, that unless you have suffered, you have not repented. And so they took that to mean that's part of the ethical leaders and members, my own saintly wife included. This completely held her back for years until she was like 40 years old and in the experience we shared when she was crying one day and I come home and she tells me she's never going to be good enough and the reason she said she's never going to be good enough is because she kept making the same mistakes and she came to realize, I can never do enough. And if I can't do enough, then grace, the grace of Christ will never kick in for me. Because of the all you can do. Yeah, she was hung up on all you can do and she knew she could never do enough and then she has that epiphany that she knew that she was good enough because he, Jesus Christ was good enough. Anyway, for years, so many people were, I think, misunderstanding what President Kimball was really sad. He said if you, if you haven't suffered, you haven't sined or I'm sorry, if you haven't suffered because of your sin, you haven't repented. Anyway, Scott, I'm, you know, I'm just sad that people think that they had any ability to make any payment or pay for any penalty for their sins. The doctrine covenant section 19 verse 4, Scott, makes repentance sounds like it's just the opposite of suffering. Now, I know they're suffering in repentance. I know President Kimball was right. It's true. President Kimball's right. If you haven't suffered, you probably haven't repented because you haven't felt the effects of your sin. Scott, when we get into talking about the process of repentance, we're going to talk about you have to have a broken heart and contrite spirit. Well, that's not comfortable. You suffer. There's definitely suffering. A broken heart hurts. a contrite spirit, there's some suffering in that. You will suffer when you sin. Amen. - Amen. To a large degree though Dave, some of our suffering is optional. - Amen. - We get to choose that. We get to decide how much suffering will I impose on myself? You know, because in a very kind of a twisted way, we almost, and I'm really ready to put it this way, but we play God. We play judge and executioner and jury, all at the same time, and we're really, really hard on ourselves. And, you know, we can't blame ourselves for this. This is a bit of a learning process that we've grown into or grown up with or what have you. And, you know, again, you said it earlier, but this is one of the things that when, well, let me put it this way, I had a lady come up to me fairly recently. Someone that I know fairly well in my ward, actually. And, with tears in her eyes, she looked at me and said, "Thank you for helping me." And, it's not me, I'm not helping her. You're helping her more than I am. And, you know, it's the spirit, actually, that's helping. But, she said, "Thank you for your podcast "and help me to understand that it's not up to me, "that it's not up to me." - It is so liberating for people to understand that Jesus, I mean, Scott, it's, it doesn't, times in the scriptures, that Jesus suffered, he paid, he was punished for all of the sins of all the world. And, I believe that even includes the sins that are not repented of, the payment is made, the ticket is there, the ticket is waiting at will call for people to turn around and face a savior and get back to will call and pick up the ticket. And, is there, is there things they have to do? Yes, do they have to qualify for the gift? Yes. - Certainly. - Yes, there's things you have to do. You have to, what's all you can do? Repent and worship him. - Repent and worship him. - Serve him, worship him with all your heart might mind and strength and whole soul. - Yeah. - Whole soul. But, it's not no part of redemption and salvation is, is out of our paying for our sins or being punished for our sins or making any sort of payment or receiving any punishment anyway. - Well, so you can see why we don't just start here. - Yeah. - Right? You can see why we don't just come out of the gate in the podcast and here we are, season three, episode one. - Here's what repentance is. - We're gonna talk about repentance. We, if we did that, David, it would be a mess. - Absolutely. - You know, so we have to line up online, precept upon precept here, a little there, a little, learn and gain this experience and this knowledge and this testimony, right? - Witness. - Through the blood of the lamb and through the word of our testimony, right? Then we are able to proceed. That's why it has been so important that we've talked about the events of the fall, the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, why they were so important and how those events offset the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve and the last couple of weeks when we've talked about faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that power that comes to us from faith, especially faith unto repentance. You know, now we're prepared. Now we can begin to because of a relationship that's been established with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Now we can move in to that repentance and we can actually grasp that, you know, he did pay for it. I have had an experience over the last several weeks, months going through this course and now I can grasp that I'm ready to take that on. He paid for my sins. - Everything that we've done, Scott, everything is just to lay a foundation. - Right. - It's just a foundation. But if you, if you try to build, if you try to build without the foundation, if you try to repent without everything that we've done so far in this course, it is gonna be one frustrating feudal. - Well, and sometimes Dave, I would argue that that could be damaging. - Yeah, damning. - Yeah, I've seen situations I know you have too, where faith gets challenged in this process because our testimonies aren't sure, because we don't have that grasp and that relationship with our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. I think one of the saddest things in my life, Scott, that I've witnessed and unfortunately, over and over again so many times, is a so-called faith crisis, because people have just given up. They've just thrown in the towel. They know they can never do enough. Speaking about saved by grace after all you can do, they finally come to the realization, they can never do enough. And they become just so tired and so weary, sometimes even in well-doing, which we've been commanded not to become weary and well-doing, and I think the whole key in not being weary and well-doing is to understand the doctrine of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the doctrine of Christ, faith, repentance. If you don't understand the doctrine and you don't understand these principles, and you haven't laid a foundation, it is one frustrating faith crisis after another experience. And it makes me so sad that people, it's kind of in the extreme, people who are trying to save themselves. It's a mockery. It really, it's a mockery of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So I know most of that's out of ignorance, but it's still a lack of understanding and can become a mockery of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Well, let's go to 19-4. Are you gonna read 19 verse four? - And surely every man must repent or suffer for I, God, amendless. - Repent or suffer? Sounds like their opposites there to me, Scott. - Repentance and suffering. - Repent or suffer? You can either repent or you can suffer. And by the way, all the suffering in the world is not gonna pay for your sins. You cannot, worlds without end, make any payment for any of your sins. Jesus has paid for all of that. I remember, you know, Elder Anderson and I having a discussion about that, do we believe? Do we believe that Jesus suffered for all the sins of all the world? Yes, do we believe that he suffered for all of the sin, all of the sin of all of the world? Yes, we don't believe in a God who would require double payment. Do we believe that God would have his son suffer for all the sins of all the world? And then that he would expect you to suffer and make any sort of payment towards that too? Do we think that justice requires a double payment? Our God is so full of grace and so full of mercy, Scott, that there was one payment and the rest of everything that we do, and there is suffering. And if you wanna think of it as payment or penalty, you can. All of that is to get back to Jesus Christ and to receive his atonement. Because if we don't receive his atonement, there will be no progress. Man, again, can merit nothing, zero, nada of himself. I just, we just can't stress that enough. So, Scott, this is just one point of what repentance is not. And understanding this one point can just, I think, really free people up to begin to exercise greater faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ than to simplify the process and to begin, to begin, even though we have several more points to make on what it's not, but they can begin to see that there are things that we can do, that we should do in order to receive all of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our life. And I testify that I know that he paid, that he suffered, that he made the payment and suffered the penalty for all the sins of all the world. And it's so interesting, Scott, I read this again this the other day in 35th chapter 11. How he introduces himself is just so interesting to me when he appears to the people in the Americas and the last part of his introduction of himself in verse 14. I'm just going to read this slide. I am the God of Israel and the God of the whole earth and have been slain for the sins of the world. That is over and over again in the Book of Mormon doctrine come, it's only one time in the Bible. But Jesus introduces himself, this is the last point he makes in his introduction to the people in the Americas. I was slain for the sins plural of the world. I believe that covers all of them and I believe it covers all of it. And all we can do to receive the grace of mercy that can flow into our life from the Atomonom Jesus Christ is to worship Him with all of our heart, mind, strength, soul, our whole soul. And that's what repentance is, ultimately, little preview. That's what repentance ultimately is, is to give our whole soul to Him, to worship Him. But we'll get more into the details of that after we talk about the other things of what repentance is not in future podcasts. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and second repentance. And there's a reason that they're in this order. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is so absolutely critical to the process of repentance. If we don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, which requires us to know Him, to believe Him, to have that relationship with Him. And as we establish that, then the process of repentance and the ability for us to accept His grace, His suffering for our own becomes so much easier. Our invitation this week would be for us to consider these things, especially as we particularly the sacrament for those of us who are able, and for those of us who are not still make this part of your sacrament process nonetheless. Let's just think about how is our relationship with our Heavenly Father? What's our relationship with Jesus Christ like? And how often are we filling the administration of the Atonement in our lives through the Holy Ghost? As we do that, we will have the ability and the opportunity to understand that Jesus Christ has truly paid and suffered for all the sins of all the world. It's our prayer that we all remember that throughout this week and always, until we are together again, be well.