S3 Bonus: Return to Mississippi

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And that's where they were picked up right there? They were taken down to the home to the Mezzan Forest and beat up interrogated by five clan were from here. And then they load them in the trunk of a car and drove across the river. They're going to miss the route. Oh my God. (Music) You are listening to someone know something from CBC podcasts. In season three, David Rigen teams up with Thomas Moore to investigate the murders of Charles Moore and Henry D, who were killed by the Ku Klux Klan in 1964. As a result of their investigation, Klanzman James Ford's seal was convicted of the crime and later died in prison. In this episode, some of which was recorded during a live presentation in June, David and Thomas reflect on their search for justice and what they've learned in the years since. This is a season three bonus. Return to Mississippi. (Music) Thanks very much for coming, everybody. So many people. You know, I'm usually in the dark talking on my own into a mic. I'm not usually in front of a whole bunch of people like this, but I kind of like it. People always ask me the question, what made you get into investigation? And the seeking of honesty became one of my life-thong driving forces. And I speak here in a way that makes it appear as if I know where I've been and where I'm going. But I'm not going to pretend my opinion is that we never really know why we do most things. Everything else is the story filling in the space between, to me, the empty space, always filling the space with story. The empty space is what drives everything human, how we fill it, how we make it make meaning for us. And the definition of honesty and truth, well problematic, but let's agree that seeking honesty starts with being honest about ourselves, starts with the understanding that the act of telling others truth can offer a kind of release. Some people brand themselves with authenticity to make money because authenticity sells, but it's not the same as truth. Authenticity is the blush of truth. Once you find it, you know it and it will change you. I was changed by work on this case with Thomas Moore, the 1964 murder of Henry D. and Charles Moore by the white necks of the Ku Klux Klan in Mississippi. And today we're all fortunate to have Thomas here with us, one of my greatest friends and one of the smartest people I've ever met. Thomas Moore. Again, I want to thank everyone for coming here and putting over David and I. I wish I had the time to tell you how I put over him. And he had to put over me. In 2005, I retired from the military and I was living a good life. I became comfortable thinking about Charles Moore. Never knowing the facts who were when while I live in on rumors. David Rigen contacted me. Like there was actually sometimes you picked up and I'll write. Finally, I sent him a FedEx letter because I thought something wrong with the phone. So what was going on with that? Well, it seemed like every year someone would contact me, law saying it's time, ABC news. They asked me to give them some details about the case. And I said, "Hell, I don't know nothing about the case. I never seen a document. Me and my mom didn't want to talk about it. So I just got tired of people asking me what help." And so I just stopped answering phones and David helped me call. And then I went up on the mountain precinct at that letter that he wrote several months ago. And he made a plan to come to Colorado Springs to meet with me. And I was reluctant to meet with him because I had made some pretty serious threats. And I said, "I don't know whether this guy is a clan or not." But then he showed up with his wife and his son. And I said, "Well, I think I can take them all out if I have to." So David began to tell me what his plan was to go to the Mississippi. He asked me what I go to Mississippi with him to try to find out something. I asked David, I said, "What can I expect to get out of this trip?" He said, "Well, maybe we would get a little bit of truth." And that's the door to the journey. Or I think it's called more all the time. But I think of him totally different. I can have a bad day. And I think about what David and I was able to do. And my day turned around. I often ask myself, when I talk to David many, many times, what else would David ask me to go to Mississippi in 2005? What if I had said no, I'm used to living in pain? What if I had said that I wouldn't be standing here today? Because I'm free. It's got some justice. Please drive to Highlighted Road. What do you think of this lady not knowing anything about the memorial? It's about 40 feet from her front door. I'd take her for granted. They don't want them though. I guess she's going over there a little. Yeah, there's somebody going across the look right now. That's the cook. That's the cook. In one kilometer, German Light, Highway 556. I'm surprised that she never took the time to look at what's right across. I mean, you can't look out that front window without staring at the thing in the whole time. I wonder why people stopped there. That day we rolled down this road going to Franklin County. Just think about it. We had our mind on child markers there. Still did we know. But then 20 miles of what we are right now, we would be told that James 4C up was still alive. That's amazing. And all we were doing was looking for the truth. That's what we looked all right about. That's all we could look for. But this road you'll lead us to the truth. This is a picture of Thomas and I standing. I still want to several memorial signs we put up in and around Medeville. It's changed since then several iterations. Some of them were ripped down. David and I were wanting to remember child more than Henry D. In such a way that so many people have forgotten about or didn't want to come to the realization. So we built handmade memorial. And for a long time until 2007, there were no pictures of Henry D. Henry D family just split up. Well, through our effort, we found Henry D pitching. So we put it up. And a lot of many speeches to people that I continue to do. I tell them they looked the more the day that I built it, not for child more than Henry D. It's for you to remind you every time you pass by this spot that this crime happened right here. Another friend of mine two months ago invited me on a tour in the Civil Rights Museum in Montgomery. And she has worked so hard to get a state memorial built to honor child more than Henry D. And we were placed right by the one that David and I put up. This is the site where the memorial is where Henry D and Charles Moore were hitchhiking on May 2nd, 1964. Charles and Henry were murdered by members of the White Knights of the Cooklux Clan on May 2nd. My feeling is that some of the sort of more insidious aspects of racism still exist in the south and in the north. I don't know if you feel the south has changed much since we left. I think there has been some change. The people that wanted to change, they have made some change. But not near enough. And David and I were going running around over 20 times to misinterpret. Nobody invited us to have a hamburger lunch. They wanted to stay away. I think that still feels. And if you look at it, if you look at America right now, we still separate. You have the blacks over here. You have the whites over here. I still have the little small cup that Mama used to put in a purse that we went into mid-veil to get some water from the fountain where it's that color that white. They don't have that now. But that's still a separation. And will it ever change? I don't know. We were traveling to Roode that that Henry D and Noob was in the college. We'll see you then. This plane right here to the left. With old counter-fail grind. Yeah. That was the first time I had made out with my girl right back there in the battle car. Amen. I'll never forget that. I knew she was there with the new government that live over here. This is the hospital over here to the right. And they moved that old tank. See that old tank right there? That's the tank I was playing on climbing up. What were you gonna do? My plan wasn't to go down pause in the tank. Because everybody in me would drink water from that tank. And my plan to go down pause is damn thin. We were supposed to down town. And meet you at Mississippi. That last day of child more in life. He walked on down here. Show me star. Okay, so there are millions of podcasts. And maybe you're cool to stick with the ones you already know you like. But if you're just a little paranoid about missing out on the best new stuff, we can help. Every other Thursday the sounds good newsletter will bring you one must-hear show from CBC podcasts. And because we're true audio nerds, we'll also tell you about shows that we love that we didn't make. Go to cbc.ca/soundsgood to subscribe. And the next day we received, when I was 18, was 12 out of the month. Hitchhiking was a real life. Every time I left home, I would even walk in a road of wagon. People were quite drive by and take pictures of them. But I'm so glad that my mom raised child more than I to respect each other and respect what she did for us. You want to talk a little bit about your experiences and you go growing up? Yeah, like I always wondered if Thomas knew about the clan and was like everyone was afraid of the clan and it was surprised by your answer. We applied God for David, I found out later was actually clanspone. And if it was lunchtime and we applied their God and they invited us in to eat the dump. When we went into the table, we didn't eat with them. They brought us in the back with the head collar, green, corn, bread, chicken and everything else that black people there. But I didn't know what they were clanspone. And later on, I am convinced that everyone in Franklin County, black and white knew what happened. And they were these clanspone or clanspone, or simple thizer or afraid of the clan. That was Franklin County. This is all was open and the house was sitting right here facing that way with Mama could look and see all the way up, all this was open and see up to the road and that was she thought he would walk down this road. Now I told her Mama he won't come back. But this is what she died, April 29th, 1917. My come in, I didn't know she was dead. I drove down this road. And as I pushed, I could see how I see a two or three cars parked over there. They've been told she was sick. And I come to see what I could do, do the hospital. I spoke to everybody and I had to how Mama was doing. And she said, boy, your mama is dead. We got to the church. I had my uniform on for her funeral and I walked in front of her casket. Until the church. So from working on this to be called case with Thomas, I developed all the hallmarks that would become part of my later work in investigating murder. I learned much of what I know from this case, your case really, and have transferred it into any of the other work I've done for SKS. So first, family must form the main pillar of any investigation. Integra, meaningful family involvement can be proof against exploitation because it's often leveled that podcasters like me that you're just exploiting cases to make millions. I'll tell that to my seredines that I brought on my trip with me. And to some extent, I see family and their confrontation of darkness and potential healing that may come out of this as the main reason to do this. I don't really do it because it's true crime or whatever. (Applause) Courtroom justice can only take you so far. Once your suspect is convicted and everyone goes home, you still have that empty space to fill, right? How do you feel about the experience working with me on this Thomas? It's not a loaded question. I mean, I'm not, we didn't plan this question. I never would be able to express the friendship that we have to build. Matter of fact, I told him that he'd just take a place a child more. And I'm walking this morning. I heard this Mark and Brewer is singing. You know, it's amazing that all the time that we came down here, I never would piece for mine or the enough to hear a Mark and Brewer say. You know, it's incredible. The piece from this and the completion. Now you can listen to the Mark and Brewer say, "Well, that's not, that's pop stuff right there." Mark and Brewer say. David know me. David know what to say and when to say it. David kept this picture of child more of school for years after we met until he would convince that I had made a change. David made sure that when we went to Mississippi, I didn't have the 30/30, or 12 gauge shotgun. David knew when he would get into the point of pissing me off. It's not too hard. And I knew when I would get into the point of pissing him off. So David, I'll say it a minute time. But I won't stand here to then tell you that I am what you helped produce and helping me find a true. You produced yourself. You did it together. What did you think of that crime crime thing? What I thought about it. Yeah. I was most impressed with the fact that we were able to come in here and let the people know we're too common in the physical room. I think it was a great thing. I think these kind of confuses always good to bring people together. I think it should more be about how to how people find justice and truth for themselves. But it's a different kind of way of looking at a legit, true crime. Yeah. And of course you never get over the pain, but you're near with it. And each day you get more comfort for them. Like Dr. King said, "The jail and Alabama, the Roan Hamster, how does it feel and Alabama's a well said, they still throw on stones at them. But I love how they're done." Right. So you don't get over this. Please drive to Highlighten Road. We talk about meeting you in 2005 and what we were able to go out and do. And I was able to grow, express knowledge, confidence, and all of that. But we never talk about you. We never talk about what that case did for your personal life. You grow, you all look on life. We never talk about it. The most important thing for me is just that I was able to make something happen. That there was something that I did that had some ripple effects beyond us as well. Right. So with other cases, other people, other journalists, other families made me feel like there was a wave that we had formed that kind of splashed against a lot of different shores. That's what's important to me. And people wanted me to do more true crime. That's for sure. But the personal satisfaction of actually helping people like yourself and other family members is what makes me interested in these cases, even though they are taxing, as you know, for your own reasons. But for my reasons, they're taxing as well because they never kind of end, right. Remission would never end. It's just a continuous thing until we die, whatever. But it has been a great journey. But it does have a sense of finality to it, this trip. Yeah. We've got the flowers in the back. Remember coming into this graveyard many times. Been over here many times. Oh boy, you're bestipping all those trees. Dad was right behind here. My mom was right over there. So Shawmore should be over there. I don't know. He should be right right here. Okay, well. So all three of you guys, I hope that you guys are looking down on me. Now keep your family's calls that I will continue to press on. I'm at peace. I'm at peace. I just hope you all rest in peace. Especially you, Charles, Moor, call your life with cutaway social. So early. A lot of good work have come out of your death. So I'll be back. I'll come back. I'm on my house. Some people come up here and chill on these trees. He's chillin that old bush down too. Charles Moor, my Moor being built. No one's already there, but another being put up that too. A member of you. But you should be on the Hague right? Okay, dude. See you Charles. Another trip. You have been listening to a season three bonus. This episode was recorded live at CrimeCon 2019. Visit cbc.ca/sks to hear how the D and Moor case unfolded and to see images from the investigation and subscribe to SKS on your favorite podcast app. Someone knows something is hosted, written and produced by David Rigen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Eunice Kim and Michalorana. Tanya Springer is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Arif Nureni. Our theme song is terrorized by Willie King. People I've been terrorized. All my days. All my days. Lord you brought me. All my days. Lord you brought me. All my days. All my days. Lord I thank you. Lord I thank you. Lord I thank you. Lord you brought me. From a mighty, a mighty long way. From a mighty long way. I had to cry. Some time. Of a dream brought me. Lord you brought me. Of a mighty long way. Pretty good. Mr. Sergeant Major.