S2E6. Systemic Coaching - Tess Cope

Welcome to episode six of the Coaching and Mentoring podcast season two. My name is Dave T and I'm chair of the Wales Coaching Centre at the University of South Wales. We provide coaching mentoring and supervision, working with individual practitioners to develop their coaching and mentoring expertise, and with organisations to help their coaching and mentoring practice to flourish. I've guessed for this episode is Test Coat, Leadership and Systemic Coach, author and founder of the Transformation Agency. Test works internationally with organisations seeking to develop their leaders and transform their systems. She's author of the highly rated book Harness, a systemic approach guaranteed to revolutionise your coaching and tells us it has a lot of work with forces which I'm very, very curious to explore as we get into this conversation. Thank you for joining us, Test. Thank you. Pleasure to be with you. Let's start if you don't mind by telling our listeners a bit about you, a bit about your background and also how you first became interested in coaching please. Of course. So my early career was working in the business and by that I mean working my way through a number of roles which included tele-sales, sales manager, marketing, operations and really trying to understand the fabric and the DNA and feet on the ground close to the customer kind of stuff. That's what I mean by working in the business. And the second half of my career I was actually enticed to move across to HR and in particular a role in learning and development. And to be absolutely honest, I hadn't really considered that because I was enjoying what I was doing so much. But once I landed, I realised, wow, this really creates a fire in my belly that I didn't even realise existed. And so my roles moved from learning in development and being responsive development across the group of companies through to senior HR director roles. And that was across a number of sectors. So my very early years were in social housing, moved into financial services, spent the biggest chunk of my career in media. So that included magazine publishing, both B2B and B2C and radio. And then finally my last role before moving independent, I was HR director for a private healthcare company, gorgeous company headquartered in Copenhagen. And then in 2010, the way I call it is I cut the umbilical cord and set myself up as independent from that point. So hopefully that's a bit of a flavour. And where did coaching come into the equation? I suppose before I moved into the learning and development role I mentioned, I was very privileged to be in an organisation where coaching was part of the culture. So I experienced it, although I may not even realise that's what it was called, of course, in my early formative years. So I experienced an organisation that was really dedicated to developing people and their managers were really good coaches. And then when I moved over into that learning and development role, it was a core part of the offering. And so of course I had to do my own training to get the fundamentals in play. On a personal level I used to do a lot of running. And so I also had a running coach. So in both dimensions of life I've been really fortunate to experience fantastic coaches actually. Wonderful, thank you very, very much. You head up this company called the Transformation Agency and it's very, very clear that there's this passion for what's called systemic coaching. For any listeners who aren't aware of systemic coaching as an approach, if we could start where you perhaps giving us a grounding in what systemic coaching is, please test. Yeah, of course. So let me talk about what it does and then I'll build right from that. I think where it's different is the intention is to get to the root cause of issues. And so it's really but unpacking the layers. That may be at an individual level, but it also may be at an organisational level. And I talk about systemic coaching being whole system whole person. So what's happening in terms of a pattern. And of course we're typically working on something that we're trying to change. That pattern could be long to the organisation, but it may also or instead it could be long to the person. So we're really trying to get to the root cause and where it comes from. So that ultimately we're trying to get a sustainable movement. So the difference really is a bit how you get to that root cause. And the process that we would go through from a systemic point of view is we really try and bring that pattern, that limiting pattern to the surface and really explore where are the roots, where is it coming from. Is it coming from further up the organisation and playing out at the level that we're working with. Does it belong further back in time, where did it actually start. So instead of working with the here and I were actually moving in time zones and removing across levels in our exploration with an idea of where does this really belong. We don't understand it's playing through here and now, maybe through one person or a couple of people or in a function, but we're just checking. Let's not assume it belongs totally there. So once we've surfaced it and explored its roots, then it's about shifting the pattern. And importantly, really importantly, we harvest the insights and the learnings that that pattern has created. I'll say a little bit more about what I mean now about getting to the root cause. From a systemic point of view, we think about the organisation as a living system. So almost like an entity, if you like. And what we know from the work in the systemic field, maybe add to where it initially comes from if that's helpful. But what we know there are some principles for a healthy system, healthy organisation system. And if I give you the headlines, because this is the lenses we look through to find root cause. The first piece is around, is there a sense of order in this living system? Can people find their place in this organisation? Is there a really healthy level of mutuality? So there's a balance of give and take. Do we honour the roots and where everyone has come from and how the organisation has got to today? I certainly know that I've made a mistake as a leader over my career where I've come into a new role, all guns blazing and really wanted to drive things forward. But not really being cognizant and respectful of everything that's taken to get to this point in time. So honouring history is a really important dynamic around that sense of order. And all of that combined allows people to find a sense of belonging. So that's what we mean by order. The second and there's three in total. I call this the three O's, which I talk about in the book. So the first O is order, a sense of order. The second O is an orientation. So in a healthy system, when people are brought in, they understand the direction of travel, they understand the core purpose. And there's a sense of leadership that allows people to keep moving. And so they really feel they can get that anchor point to orientate themselves, whether that's an individual, a function, a division, maybe even a country part of the business. And then the third O that creates this healthy system is a level of openness. And here what we mean is about the organisation and the leaders within it are attuned to what's happening in their environment, in their sector, in their market. And importantly, with their customers. So there's a sense that they can receive the messages and they're able to evolve. So there's not only an openness in terms of their tune, but they're able to emerge and evolve. Otherwise the view is that company will basically shruffle and not be effective. So I appreciate that's a holistic and full response. But there's quite a lot there to be thinking about when we get to the root cause. But can I be cheeky? Maybe even more holistic than test. Of course. Because you talk about your passion for sustainability. You talk about encouraging private individuals and organisations to be mindful of the wider ecosystem. So I'm presuming sometimes the work might be even broader than the organisation as a whole system. Absolutely. So maybe if I share an example of a piece of work I've done, which I do refer to in the book as well. So I'm not releasing anything that I haven't already put in the public domain because it's always about being mindful about what you share clearly when it's working with clients. But I was working with an executive leadership team. And when we look at the health of the system, we literally what I call MAPIT. So we create a 3D map of the organisation in the context of its ecosystem. And we check where are the really good relationships. Where is their health and vitality? vitality versus where might there be a level of unhealthy stuff going on where things have got toxic, where instead of looking at each other in the ecosystem and creating that mutuality I mentioned earlier, we have people looking away and ignoring their impact as an organisation, for example, on the environment, but it isn't only the environment. So yeah, depending on who I would be working with, and executive leadership team is absolutely appropriate to zoom back quite wide and think about the wider ecosystem, 100%. Okay, so you've sold us on the importance and the benefits of a systemic approach to coaching. The curious coach is listening to our conversation. What might be one or two tools that maybe are in your book or that they can source that they could perhaps start to use to bring this systemic lens into their work? Absolutely. Both of these are in the book and obviously more flesh on the bone is there unavailable, but very happy to share. I would say the first thing I would bring to front of mind for a coach, regardless of who they're working with, is acknowledge the whole person's perspective. And I think that's even more relevant because the lines are so blurred in the current context. You know, we're working often with people on Zoom and they're sitting in their kitchen or depending on where they are in their own journey of maturity, they could be sitting in a flat chair. So, you know, really thinking about that blurred lines and allowing people to be whole in that conversation for those other factors to be here and available to speak about. So, acknowledging the whole person is one part of that. Another dimension of thinking about the whole person and I am often in this territory with clients, it's not unusual for, and I'm typically working with senior leaders, but this will be the same no matter who we're working with. It's not unusual for our family patterns to be unconsciously playing out in the organisation. So, it can be really helpful when we're coaching to help people think about where is this actually coming from? Is this a pattern from my family or is this a pattern that really belongs in the organisation? And giving people some space to separate those two things, it's not always appropriate to work with the pattern from the family system. A, you may not have the remit, B, it might not be the right timing and C, the person might not be ready, but they can hold some space and separate them. So, that would be my first, I think, piece that I would offer. And the second one is one of the fundamental steps with the systemic approaches honoring the history. And, you know, I alluded a second ago, and I fallen into this trap myself where it's about, you know, driving things forward, there is an appropriate piece of attention needed for honoring everything that it took to get to where we are today, including for that individual, because, you know, individuals couldn't, you know, especially if they're in a period of change, they're trying to think about, you know, what they want to get rid of. And, you know, try to move forward, but there is a place and an appropriate nest to go, hang on a second, let's be respectful and honour and be grateful for the big milestones, the big learning points, the big challenges, not just that we've experienced, I.e. the individual, but maybe people that have made a sacrifice for this to be an opportunity in the first place. Classic example in the work context would be, you know, if an organisation has gone through a major reorganization and they've had to let people go, those that are left behind can be really grateful and honouring and giving space to think about all that is taken for the new opportunities to be here today. And there is something that happens during change that if we don't honour the history, we will unconsciously create resistance in the system. So there's something about being respectful of everything that is taken to get to where we are today. Could you tell us a bit more about that please? Yeah, of course. So I'm just going to see if I can draw on an example. Yes, so I've got a really classic example of this and this example is in the book as well. So my book is full of case studies, so I really want to try and bring this to life. So senior leader coming into a part of an existing organisation but moving into whole new division and a whole new country and incredibly ambitious, incredibly skilled, you know, loads of fantastic experience behind them. And they were given a part of the business that needed some care and attention because results were starting to tail off and it had previously been a very successful part of the organisation. And this individual really wanted to hit the ground running, rallied the troops in terms of his leadership team, put together a strategy, really clear plan and everyone was nodding, go, "Yeah, that completely makes sense. We've done all the analysis, we have a plan to move forward." But in the planning and in the strategising, there was a lot of disrespect and making, you know, calling out where mistakes had been made previously and talking about all the problems and what hadn't been done. And what we discovered is the whole system went into a bit of paralysis. It created a resistance. So from a cognitive point of view, there was really good plans, but energetically, the whole business was stuck and it couldn't move. So there was a huge resistance to actually in a very literal way making those plans become a reality. But at a cognitive level, at a logical level, it didn't make sense. But when we unpacked it, what we realised is actually people are feeling disrespected. Once they were really pride of the organisation, they were actually feeling like we must have done a really bad job. We fight that ever being literally phrased. But because the honouring of the history hadn't happened appropriately, the resistance kicked it unconsciously. It was never expressed. But once we took care of that, then there was a real takeoff back into performance. I'm hoping that makes sense. That's brilliant. Thank you very much for sharing that example. You've mentioned this book, we mentioned at the top of the recording, Harnis. What was it, Tess, that made you think, right, I've got a book in me. What were your particular hopes for what you would want readers to take away from Harnis, please? Well, what I'd like to share here, Dave, is the why of the book. And for me, I'm incredibly passionate about building this particular capability, systemic coaching capability, inside systems, inside organisations. I've been internal and of course, I am external and there's always a place for external coaches appropriately. But I believe in order to create a sustainable movement in terms of the things that we're working through in coaching. I think having in-hide-to-resource is incredibly valuable. Now, the book will be as valuable for external coaches and independent coaches as it will for internal. But my why of getting it on to paper is because I'm really passionate about building this internal capability. So that's really what if you like the impetus behind it. And then what meant that it got into the real world as opposed to in my head? Two things happened. One is the pandemic. And so the space all of a sudden was available. So rather than it whirling around in my head, I had an opportunity to start mapping it on paper. And the second thing is on World Book Day, actually, I signed up with a book coach. And the book coach I signed up with is a 12-week programme. And they guarantee at the end of the 12-week you'll have your first draft complete. And so yeah, and that's very much how I like to work. I like someone to hold me accountable, be by my side. And I think all of us who are coaches in my view, we need to be open to coaching as well. And so I really I really leverage that opportunity. So any words of guidance or wisdom for any listeners who maybe feel they've got a book inside them? I would say a couple of things. So apart from the obvious about getting someone to coach you through it. And by the way, that doesn't need to be an official book coach. There may be a few people who are both interested and they could partner with each other. So apart from getting some coaching partners or accountability partners into play, I would say my biggest learning was to map out the book upfront. Before I did any writing, is to map out what is this book for? What is it trying to achieve? And then what might be the chapters that create the journey to ensure that that is achieved? And I was able to map that I thought of what would be the rich case studies that bring this to life? And by the way, actually one of the things that I did do before I started writing. and prior to getting my book coach on board, I did a bit of research, so I spoke to quite a few clients, and I asked them if I were writing a book on coaching, what would be important? And one of the things that came through very clearly is a balance of giving them some practical frameworks and case studies that bring it to life. And so I really held that console in my mind to make sure there was a real rich, you know, a mix of both of those in the book. Thank you. You've already been kind and general enough to share some advice about considerations and techniques that coach's interest in systemic work might want to use. I'm also aware that you have your share model. Yes. And it's got that element in it about the importance of honoring what's gone before that you've attached upon. Can you talk us through the share model, please? Of course I can. So there's two key frameworks I have. So just before I open into share, the name of the book, harness, is actually a coaching framework. So H stands for honoring history, A stands for acknowledging reality and so forth. So each of the stages of the coaching framework is literally through the harness. So, and then this is, if you like, an overarching framework just to be in conversation with people because you don't always have the opportunity to move into coaching mode. And so you can actually invite people into a systemic conversation using share. So S stands for, well, let's step back. Let's just view what might be going on in the wider system that would help us make sense of what we're seeing, what we're hearing, or what this issue is. So it's pulling them back from being so close to the issue and doing a bit more of a landscape scan. Then the H in share stands for honoring history and hopefully, I've given you some depth to that. And it's recognizing, let's not try and jump too quickly to solve it. Let's first of all go, well, how did we get here? Then let's, the A is for acknowledge. Let's understand what, if any, might be the very good reasons why this is happening. Because they may not necessarily be all negative. There could be a very good reason that we are where we are and what's happening. Then the R is, OK, once we determine the bits that maybe aren't so helpful and we've done everything up to the point, let's think about now what needs to be released. What's the pattern that needs to be released in this system? And what might be the things that we've learned as a consequence? So that's what we mean by harvesting the rewards. And then finally, when we release the pattern, we have hopefully created a bit of a space to think about, what else wants to come in. So the Ian Share is about, let's now enable this future, perhaps still emergent. Let's enable that to come through and important to create some space for it. And the subtext on that one is, what needs to stop in order that there is space for that new stuff to actually make its way through to us? So yeah, the share is more of a conversational piece. It's also a really nice framework that you can have at a leadership table. And bring people with, you know, on a journey of a conversation, harness by comparison is more about having people move through a coaching journey. I do like with the A-fuck knowledge, the fact that. I might even say invariably. However, something's perceived right now, there is probably a very honorable and positive intent as to what the function of it was at the time that it originated. Yeah, absolutely. And that can get lost sight of. Yeah. Fantastic. I am also curious, as I said, in the introduction that you also incorporate working with horses into your coaching practice. Please, please do tell us more about this. So I have always, and always meaning, for as long as I can remember, being a knee height to my parents had passion for horses. I don't quite know where it's coming from. It's probably like being Irish because the Irish are typically known for being very horse-friendly. So I've always had that passion. And then when I move my career into this learning development space, I got to point where not least because I wanted to integrate and keep life simple, I thought, "What can I bring together rather than it feeling separate?" And so I undertook a number of trainings and still do as to how I can incorporate the horses in my work. In particular, in a one-on-one setting, but I also do utilize them. And I have done it internationally when I'm being working for leadership teams. And if I give you just an example of where they can really make a very positive contribution, if the agenda was to really help a client open up in their emotional intelligence, to get in touch with that deeper sense of self, with a very strong and logical cognitive, but haven't yet developed that emotion intelligence. Time with the horses somehow tends to break through that barrier because energetically, you're with the horse and your language and your stripes don't matter, frankly. You know, just that energetic connection just seems to melt away some of those classic barriers can get away in terms of building relationship. So it's as practical spending time walking the horses, being with the horses just seems to break down barriers that perhaps would be there between humans, otherwise. Another way that I have utilized the horses and there are many ways, including from a systemic point of either, I'll just give you a tiny example. There's a particular activity that we get people involved with the horses, and this is part of a leadership program that I was working with and delivering. And the task was sounding incredibly simple, but I gave one of the delegates one of my horses with a head collar on her. They have like a, what we call a lead line, in other words, a piece of rope that touched the head collar so that the human can lead the horse around a space. And I asked the individual to lead the horse around. There's quite large open space and over a couple of barriers. And they immediately had the horse, the lead line, so tightly held that the horse could not even move its head. And so within less than 60 seconds, you have some data on that person's kind of way of operating. And so within only a few minutes, I was able to open up a parallel conversation, tell me about your leadership style, tell me about how you check in with your people. And so yeah, yeah, I'm really out of my people. I check in with them five times a day. It's like, wow. So what we saw with the leading, the horse, is so tightly controlled, was exactly the behavior that was playing out in the organization. So one of the great things about working with the horses is they create a platform for feedback very, very quickly. And delighted to say, though, within 30 minutes of working with that same individual, I got them to practice letting go of the lead line. So no attachment physically. And he was walking behind the horse, getting and guiding it to its destination. With the parallel being, how could you enable your people? How can you create energy behind your people, but not be on top of them? And so you're constantly working with the parallels of, you know, they hear and die with the horse relationship. How does that play out in the organization? So yeah, it creates a platform for feedback, very rich, honest feedback, very, very quickly. Another example, I had the horse jumping out of the arena and away from a CEO, because he was also too on top of the horse. And so we were working with how do you lead at distance? And so then we started exploring, ah, OK, you were too close. You weren't giving enough autonomy. You weren't giving enough space. So there's lots of fantastic parallels that you can create a very safe environment for. Very, very rich metaphor and a lived experience. And hopefully, they've gone back to their respective organizations and loosened their grips somewhat. Yes. Well, that first person I spoke to, two years later, they're still talking about that experience. Wonderful. I hesitate to ask this final question, because you shared such a breadth of expertise and wisdom and practice, but I'm going to. So we like to close by asking about what's exciting you now? What is it that's sort of coming up in the coaching industry, practice, ideas that's really catching your attention? I was reflecting on this earlier, and I thought, well, not just earlier, but over the last few months, actually. And for me, with the systemic approach in mind, I think there's more of an openness to acknowledging what's happened before needs to be acknowledged in order to move things forward. Because I think, you know, previously, and myself included, I was trained, don't look back, look forward. You know, so by having the client be solution-focused and actually I think there's more of an open mind in terms of maybe we need to broaden the conversation a little bit, sometimes going back in order to go forward might be appropriate and for me that I think is where the innovation is. Wonderful. Thank you very very much for the conversation today. Tess has been an absolute joy. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. This podcast is brought to you by the Wales Coaching Centre based at the University of South Wales for a centre of excellence for coaching and mentoring. 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