S2E4: Woe's Hollow (with Theodore Shapiro)

- Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. - I'm Adam Scott. - And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance. - And today we're talking about the fourth episode of season two, "Wows Hollow," written by Anna O. Young Munch and directed by Ben Stiller. - Yeah, this was a big one for us, and the other exciting thing is that we're gonna be joined by Severance's marvelous composer, Theodore Shapiro. - Yes, then Ben and I are gonna talk about some scenes from the episode. - And of course, the prophetic Zach Cherry will be back to tell us what he thinks will happen in the next episode. - That's right, Zach doesn't watch anything. We don't even know if he reads the scripts when he's, you know, except for his lines. - He just feels what he thinks is going to happen. - Yeah, yeah. - He's like an octopus. - Oh, like an octopus in what way? - Well, he's an octopi tends to intellectualize each one of their arms. I have no idea what I'm talking about. - Is this have to do with like my octopus teacher? - Yes, which I didn't see. - Okay. - Yeah, and you're saying an octopi, but an octopi is a plural. - That means several, yeah. - So are you saying octopi use, they sense things? - I'm just assuming that that movie is about a psychic octopus and I don't think that's what it's about. - It is not. - Be warned, there are spoilers for episode four here. So learn from my recap pod listening mistakes and be sure to watch the episode first and then listen to us. - Yeah, definitely, because there's definitely big, big spoilers in this episode. - Good lord, yeah. - Yeah. - So how have you been, Ben? - I'm great, I'm great. I'm still buzzing from the experience of the Grand Central Station Severance Popup that happened when we're recording this yesterday. - That was just so much fun. - It was incredible. - It really felt like we were taking a step back and bringing things down to sort of a basic performance level and it was like a happening. - It was like a happening. - Yeah, like a fluxus sort of thing if you know that that history of experimental performance art. The idea was to have a cube in the middle of Grand Central Station that had the cubicle with you guys sitting there doing your Severance stuff and you guys, originally it was a great idea that Apple had and originally it was just going to be actors that they hired to kind of like look like office workers at the cubicle and then you said we should do it. The actor should really do it. - Yeah, you said I'll do that. - Yeah and I just figured the cast would be game and lo and behold everybody was super into it. - It was incredible. It was incredible and you guys just went in there for three hours and you refined and you interacted. - I vacuumed the floor. - Well you did that the little roller thing which you do in episode two I think. - Not a real vacuum and I'm not convinced it does anything but just move dust particles around. - Then Ms. Kobel came in and you got in trouble with her at one point. - Many times she got upset she threw a coffee cup. I was talking to my wife and daughter on the outside when the coffee cup got thrown and I was like whoa! What just happened? - What just happened? - It was amazing though because nobody could hear you guys on the inside and people were literally enthralled. It was mesmerizing. When Milchick came in with the red ball, I didn't even know what he was doing with the red ball but he didn't look happy. - No. - And at a certain point Patricia got under the desk to what was going on there. - Well a couple of the monitors went out and so Patricia took it upon herself to try and fix them and then once she started fiddling with the plugs all of the monitors went out. - That's so Patricia. It really is, that's really bad. - But you know when Tramel walked out 'cause you had to kind of walk through the crowd to get to the cube, the whole place got really quiet. - Yeah, and then there were cheers too. I think when he came back-- - For sure. - The second time when Patricia came in, it was so great. It was just, people discovered it, nobody announced it and it was just, we just walked in and there was no announcement or anything and people just sort of started stumbling upon it and being like, wait a second, those are the actors from the show and we just improvised for three hours but there was a certain freedom to it 'cause no one could hear us. So we could just do whatever we wanted and we kind of decided that it fell somewhere around season one, episode three, just the culture of MDR felt like it fell somewhere in that area. - I could not have been more excited or happy watching it and I just was, it was so much fun. - It was a blast. I wanted to also talk, for me on the outside, I was like taking pictures. I got to talk to fans of the show. It wasn't just people who were going home from work. There were people who saw it on Reddit or on social media and came down who were fans of the show. - They made the trip. - Yeah, well they saw it, they came up on their seat and they ran over and it was great. I talked to people from Brazil. I talked to people from Ireland, from England. It was just great to talk to fans of the show and see how excited they were about the second season and you don't get a chance really to interact. I guess when you guys went down to Brazil for the Comic Con down there, you got a chance to meet people. - We did and people are so excited for season two, which is really flattering and so much fun. But this had its own sort of organic feeling to it because like you said, there was no announcement. It was just something and I'm glad we did it for a few hours because people, like you said, we're able to kind of make the trip and we were still there by the time they got there. - Yeah, we wanted it to go on for long enough that people could discover it and you guys would still be there and you guys were troopers and amazing and so much fun. So that was great. - Well, all right, our guest. - This is exciting. - Is one of Severance's secret weapons though he's not really that secret because he won an Emmy for the show. - Yeah. I feel like we're the secret weapons. - We're the secret weapons as the end. - Theodore Shapiro. - Teddy Shaps as his friends call him. Teddy, how are you, man? - I'm good. How are you guys? - Great. - Yeah, we're good. We're good. - So great having you here. - And by the way, Adam and I are in person together in New York here right now, which is fun. - Yeah. - We can high five like multiple times if we needed to. - Yeah, you've done it already. - Yeah. - So many times. - That's right. - Teddy, you and I go back a while, do you remember? - It's, do you remember when we first met? - We first met. You called me to try to get me successfully, try to get me to work on Dodgeball. - That's so funny because I was asking that question like I knew the answer and I don't remember when we first met. So now, I mean, I know Dodgeball was the first thing we worked on and I'm wondering, do you remember what you had done? - Sure. Yeah, so I had just done a long came poly and Starsky and Hutch. - Oh, okay. - And I think you'd see me. - Maybe that's where you guys both knew each other. - Yeah, so I wasn't involved with either of those movies in any way other than just showing up on the set. But I didn't have to split the connection. - Yeah, no, I didn't. I mean, Todd Phillips directed Starsky and Hutch and the great John Hamburg, who's a mutual friend of ours, rode and directed along, came poly. And yeah, those scores were great. And you came and Ross and Thurber, who was directing Dodgeball. I guess I must have suggested that, let's talk to Teddy. You were probably Theodore to us back then before we knew you. - Hey, can I ask you something? Can I ask you something? - Yeah, yeah, sure. - It is Shapiro, right? - It is Shapiro. I've always wondered that some people pronounce Shapiro. Shapiro, yeah, what is it? - I mean, I think that Shapiro is the correct pronunciation. And I think that Shapiro must be just some weird Ellis Island, you know, decision that one of my forefathers came. - Really? - Really? - Okay. - I mean, I'm not the only Shapiro, there are others out there, but I don't think it's grounded in anything authentic. I think it's, it must be some Americanization. - So it's not like an expectation that you put on it when you came to Hollywood. - I was not like trying to make-- - Sounds like you may be accusing me of an expectation. - Well, you know, it's like a fancy composer and maybe it's like, you know, I don't know. - It is quite fancy. - I was not trying to impress anybody with Shapiro. - I'm impressed with it. And I get to impress people when they say like, "Oh, I really like Theodore Shapiro's work." I'm like, "It's Shapiro." - Excuse me. - It's Shapiro for those in the know, yeah. - So Teddy, you and I know each other completely separate from all of this because our sons, Julian and Graham have been in school together since Kidner Garden. - Yes. And, you know, I was thinking about the fact that the first time I ever heard about this show was at a Halloween party where you and I were accompanying our sons and talking about what's going on and told me about this show. And I was like, "Oh man, that sounds really good. I hope Ben calls me." - Also, that's great. - You know, the first time that I ever met you was at our kids' preschool in Pasadena. - That's right. - I remember going like, "Oh, that's Adam Scott." - I remember just being like, "Holy shit, Ben stillers here." Holy shit, holy shit. - So, Teddy, and we went on to do a few movies here. - Yeah, you did drop a thunder together in Walter Mitty. So you guys have worked together quite a bit. - Yeah. - We have. - Is there a particular process you guys fall into together as each project sort of a fresh start? - What do you think, Teddy? - I mean, I think that each project is actually being a little different from the last. We've developed a little bit more of a process over time. And in particular, I think what I would say is that with Mitty and then with this, the big difference is just me starting to write earlier in the process and sort of having the music exist during Ben's creative process earlier, which I think helped in both cases, which helped the music sort of evolve as like an integral part of the project. - Yeah, I remember having some pieces that you had written on set from the very beginning when we started shooting season one. You had some kind of sketches of themes for us to play on set. And it was really important to have that. - Yeah, well, we were lucky on Severance because when we had this delay due to COVID, I think that was around the time you were able to write a lot of music. - Well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think that we found our main theme during the COVID break. I actually, I like, I have this kind of fond memory during the summer of COVID in 2020. We had like just discovered the main theme. And I was up in Oregon and drove to Oregon. - Can I just interrupt you when you say we had just discovered the main theme. And what that means is Teddy wrote the main theme. - Actually wrote three different, or didn't you send me like three different options? - Wow. - Well, I said, so actually I had started writing a bunch of themes and sending them to you and you were excited about what I was coming up with. And then in February of 2020, I flew to New York and we met up at the set. And you were like listening to the music and there was just like this one little part that you kept coming back to. And it was just like, it was the B section of something that I'd written. It wasn't like the main part of it, but you kept coming back to that thing. And I was like, oh, first of all, always follow Ben's instincts. (laughing) That's like the cardinal rule. And like there's something that Ben is responding to here. And in that thing that we were listening to, it was kind of like an electronic piece. And then when I got back to L.A. Like I went home and I sat down at the piano and I played the four chords from that B section at the piano and it was like, oh, what if it was this? - So wait, when you say it was an electronic piece, do you mean? - Yeah. - What do you mean? It was like that same melody. - But it wasn't the melody. It was just like the four chords. (soft piano music) But all of the sounds were like more overtly electronic. - Okay. - But when I played it at the piano suddenly like the tone of it changed completely and it became more of this mystery. (soft piano music) And I was like, oh, wait, maybe this is the whole thing. - Yeah. - Because we had been talking about like, what if there's one sound for the ines and one sound for the outies and like the any world is electronic and the outie world is organic and, you know. But when I played that thing, I was like, oh, wait a minute. What if the whole? I was like, oh, wait a minute. And I played that thing, I was like, oh, wait a minute. What if the whole show is just like a puzzle? Like this would be the music if the whole show was just one kind of puzzle. - Yeah. - So I sent that off to Ben and I was pretty excited about it and did not hear back from Ben for like three weeks. And. - Oh boy. - And so I was like, oh man, that's a bummer. I didn't like it and I sort of thought that I was onto something and then like one day, like the phone rang and he was like, oh, I love this thing. Like this is great. I'm really into this. - You're like, where the hell have you been for three years? - Was it just sitting in your inbox for three weeks? - No, I had listened to it immediately and I just didn't want Teddy to feel too, you know, good about like that he was saying. - Thank you. - Smart, thank you. - No, I don't, I think I must have gotten preoccupied or something, or I was doing other stuff, right? - And there's also something else unique about this particular theme in that it's not just providing kind of this emotional through line for the series and sort of tying things together. It's also really catchy in its own right which instrumental themes often are not. Often they're there as sort of background but this is a really kind of earwormy, really beautiful song. And to think that you were kind of sectioning it off as sort of a minor part of another theme is really interesting and Ben, it kind of obviously stood out to Ben but you were, was it like a bridge to something else? - It wasn't a bridge to something else but it was just sort of the middle, you know, it was like, here's my main idea. Okay, I'm gonna do something here and then I'm gonna come back to my main idea. And you know, what's interesting about that is that sometimes when you're not being precious about something, you'll just do something that is simple and memorable thinking that you're just kind of tossing it off. And the more complicated thing is gonna be the main. - Exactly, and yeah, I mean, it was just, it was funny because I had these four chords and the fourth chord kind of demanded that I write this like sort of a weird melodic idea and that's where, you know, did it, did it, did it. You know, it was the thing that fit with the weird fourth chord and the fourth chord often does that, doesn't it? - That's the thing, right? - No, I have no idea what I'm talking about. - I was just gonna say, what are you talking about? - What's amazing to me, Teddy is like, you can't emphasize enough how important Teddy's music is for the show. I think, you know, just, I am such a fan of yours and I really don't understand how you do what you do, you know, in terms of the creative process because you have so many constrictions in terms of what you're having to create, you know, to have something like to score a scene and to time that it can take and how much, you know, and the notes that you get, the feedback of, you know, if it's right for the scene or not, and also just like where it comes from and the instrumentation and all these things, I'm just amazed at your process because you also are incredibly fast in terms of how you do the work and kind of spoils you for any other process because Teddy will turn things around so quickly. But it's really, for me, any movie we've worked on together, it makes me want to be in this world to live in this world that the music creates that, you know, inspires me visually and just, you know, in terms of the tone of the piece. And so we were really lucky that you were willing to write this music ahead of time when we started shooting season one so that when we were shooting and on set, we could actually play it during some scenes and when we were trying to find the tone of the show. And so we played, you know, in MDR or something and for sure, it would just sort of change - Walking down the hallways and stuff you would play it. It did really help. - Yeah, you know, there's so much music in the show. There's so much music in the show. Yeah, and I agree it's so integral to the show and the feeling in the show. And I actually feel like your music has saved me on a number of occasions in scenes. - Teddy, you're a filmmaker and what I mean by this, like you just, you know movies so well and you've worked on a lot of movies. And I feel like that's another part of our relationship and our collaboration for me is, you know, the way that you work with Jeff, our editor, you guys have developed an amazing relationship. But, you know, when an episode comes in, you know, you get the rough cut of the episode, I, there's always like a little something inside me until like I hear from Teddy, like did he like it? Did not, you know, and it's not because, and it's not because I just want you to like it, it's because I really value your opinion as a filmmaker. And I feel like that's a big part of what you do. - You know, the way that we work on this show, where I feel like I'm talking, you know, Jeff and I do, we have this very close relationship and I feel like I'm in constant conversation with Jeff and then it's always understood that you are in conversation with Jeff and so I feel like the three of us are just sort of making the show in post together in a really interactive and creative way. And, you know, it's not always like that with every project, like sometimes you're brought in at the end and, you know, the film's already edited and, you know, they just sort of want you to put your music on top of it and you just, and sometimes that's just the way their process works. But it's just such a joy to do it this way and to sort of have the music live in the show from the beginning like this. - And you've written so much music for the show and you wrote so much music ahead of time, but then when we get to the editorial process with a specific episode, you know, we'll lay in music and you've written ahead of time, but then they'll always, you know, be that sort of crafting of like, oh no, this actually needs a new cue or this needs a new idea here. And that's a big part. And that, you know, goes to episode four, you know, episode two or four, where obviously the story is in a whole new environment and that required you to come up with a new theme, just a completely new theme. And I think you did that ahead of time too, the same way you did it for season one, but for this specific episode, right? Well, I mean, that was one of the first things that you ever told me about season two was about this episode. And so I feel like from the time that I started writing themes for season two, I was really focused on this episode in particular and finding sounds. But truthfully, like Ben, I should say that the thing with 204 was that this was the episode where I feel like we worked the hardest to find the tone of anything in both seasons. And a lot of those things that I did in advance ended up being part of the episode. But there was, you know, we were working at it for a while. And what was it about this episode that was a bit tricky for you guys to zero in on that particular tone? Well, this is, you know, the episode where they go, it's like the lumens version of a corporate retreat, but it's in freezing wasteland where, you know, it's called an orc bow, where Milchick is putting them out in the elements. And I always wanted the episode to be very visual and to be not a lot of dialogue. At least the way it ended up in the first part of the episode has very little dialogue. And to be stark and, you know, kind of otherworldly. So, yeah, that was the idea behind it. And, you know, just from the very beginning of the episode where we find Irving on the lake. And then he, you know, hears Mark's voice and follows his voice and he meets Heli on the way up. And they end up on top of this cliff overlooking this big lake. And there's this monitor there with a message from Milchick. You know, it just was surreal. And we wanted it to be surreal and eerie and weird. Actually, you know, why don't we take a listen to the Milchick video music that you wrote? - Yeah, like the retro. - Yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - That is actually the theme that you wrote. - Yeah, Patricia sings in season one. - That's right. - Exactly. - The "Cure Him" for season one. - The "Music" act version. - Yeah. - And I remember Ben, you just kept saying like, can you make a chitier? - That's exactly right. You kept on coming back. I was like, this has to sound more like really bad than music. - Yeah. - Yeah, it sounds like almost like a great below music. You would actually-- - It is a great below music. - Well, that's right. - Yeah, yes. - It's some guy quickly doing something for this video. - Exactly. - All right, it's time for us to take a quick break. We'll be right back. - Hey everyone, I'm Josh Radner. And I am so excited to tell you about how we made your mother a rewatch podcast looking back at how I met your mother. And I am here with Craig Thomas, who co-created the show along with Carter Bayes. Hi Craig. - Hey Josh, somehow it has been 20 years since the show premiered. That's seem I'm gonna check the math on that. 10 years since it went off the air. And we thought that made this a perfect time to look back. See what the hell we did and why the show still seems to resonate with fans around the world today. Follow and listen to how we made your mother wherever you get your podcasts. So Teddy, the theme that you ended up with for the episode was also sort of mirrored in the The Theorem in tune, right? - Yes, well that was a real breakthrough. I mean, you know, it's interesting 'cause like I remember I sent you two versions of Miss Wong's Theorem and Music. And one was just kind of like spooky Theorem and Sounds, like not really a tune. And then the other one was this tune that was sort of like a cousin to the cure him. 'Cause you were like that's what we wanna move towards. Like you had your finger on it. And that's our collaboration. Teddy writes something brilliant and I go that's great. (laughing) So the Theorem and Music that Sarah Bach is playing, that Miss Wong is playing, is that same cure him? 'Cause I didn't even recognize it as. - No, no, no, it's not. But what it unlocked for me was, oh yeah, there's this whole body of cure music. It's like cure folk tunes. - Right. - And when I wrote that and then responded to it, I was like, oh right, there's like, there's a world of cure folk music. - Like it's next to the cure him. - Exactly, yeah, yeah. - Exactly. - Now, had you played a Theorem in before if you had a lot of experiences? - So I'm going to admit that, no, I don't play a Theorem in, but I have this instrument called an And Martino that's like an early electronic instrument that sounds like a Theorem in. And I'm not very good at playing it. It's a little harder than it looks to do it well. - Is it a keyboard instrument? - So it's a keyboard instrument, but it has this wire that you kind of slide from right to left along the keyboard. And so like if you slide it up to a C, then it'll play a C. With your left hand, you press one button that says how loud or soft it is, and then with your right hand, you do the pitch with this. Your fingers in a little ring, and you move it up and down, and that determines the pitch. - Sounds super easy. - Sounds like you're making it up as you go on, actually. - Yeah. - I don't believe you. - Yeah. - And it sounds like a Theorem in. - It sounds like a Theorem in. So, and because I'm not that good at it, it seemed like it would work for Ms. Huang on the Theorem. - Right. So yeah, so that's how it is. - I mean, Theorem in is a fascinating instrument, and we could talk for hours about what Theorem in. - Basically using the force to make music. - I don't even understand how it works. When you watch Ms. Huang play it in the episode, she's doing it, right? What is she doing? - So Theorem in is like the only instrument where you don't physically touch anything. - Right. - You're using your hand, the block, I think, a wave, and that is creating the sound. - Incredible. - I know, it's totally crazy. - And you know what else is amazing? Is that Sarah Bach learned how to play The Theorem in for the episode? - Yeah, you can tell she knows what she's doing. It looks perfect. - Incredible. - I mean, I was convinced. - Yeah, this young woman is just, she's such a good actress, and so smart, and so committed, and she went and learned how to play it. That's one of, I think, the more interesting scenes in the episode. And you then, I remember, scored as Milchick's tail gets darker and weirder, you went on to score it with The Theorem and to get even weirder and stranger, as it gets, you know, exactly. - Yeah. - Let's take a listen to that scene. - And he reached up to grasp at his hair, which was suddenly moss that tore easily from his bleeding scalp. - I'm good heavens. - And as the pus from his eye thickened into sap, I turned from my gargling brother and walked to the pool of the hollow, where I knew the waterfall would drown out my brother's cries. - It's actually really smart. - And it was here that I first encountered the temporal wall. A gaunt bride, half the height of a natural woman. - I just have to say, the theme that you did come up with, that theme, which she's playing on the Thereman, to me, that spooky, weird kind of evocative melody is, it's so, it makes this episode in my mind, you know, because it puts you in this world, which, again, I just can't say enough how much the music is important in our show, you know, it's part of the world of the show. So. - Yeah, we're so lucky to have Teddy. - Yeah, man. - Well, yeah. - Thank you. I mean, I have to say that there was a particular moment in the show where I thought to myself, this might be the single best piece of footage that I've ever gotten to work on. Which is during the, the sex scene between Mark and, and helly, that shot with the red glow. - The wide shot. - It's just the wide shot of the red glow of the two of them where you just kind of see almost their weird animal silhouette. - Yeah, the wide shot is sort of like, at the end of it, right? - Yes, yes, exactly. - And the key that you did there is, it's so funny, 'cause you've never talked about this, that it's like one of my favorite, did I tell you this? That moment. - No, I think Jeff told me that you said that, that you were like, 'cause I wrote a cord at the end of that, that I really was happy about. And the director doesn't always love the thing that you write, that you're really excited about. But in this case, I've heard you, Jeff, that Ben's like, that cord is my favorite moment of the single of the whole show. - And then what you're doing too, Adam, is good. - Yeah, that's fine, whatever. - All right, well, you know, we've been asking fans to call in with questions. We have this hotline set up. So we got one about the music that we want you to help us to answer, okay? Okay, let's listen. - Hey guys, this is Don Collins from New York. I'm a big fan of your work. My question was, what was the influence behind the praise here's handsome that was saying to the crew at the end of season one? I was just wondering what were behind that whole composition and where, what the backstory was with that. Thank you so much. - Thank you, Don. - So he's asking about the Keir Hymn. - Yeah. - What I remember was, at a certain point, I think that IFA-- - IFA McCartle, who directed the episode. - IFA McCartle, yes. She had identified, well, the Keir Hymn was written into the script at the lyrics. And I think that IFA gave me a reference of something that she felt would be an interesting reference and it was this lullaby that was in the movie Night of the Hunter. And so I listened to that and I sat down at the piano and played and sang the Keir Hymn sort of as a lullaby and then Patricia performed it as a punishment. - Yeah, so interesting is Patricia, the way Patricia interprets it is ominous. And like you said, it's a punishment, but the melody and hearing it now in this episode and hearing it kind of travel in different versions, it is sort of lulling and you can see it as being kind of like this soothing song that's kind of gone through the ages. - Yeah. - Exactly. And you actually hear that theme in the scene where Kobel is in front of her shrine to Keir and he's in one of five or one of six. And that's the score. So it has this sort of devotional quality there and then devotional, yes, that's the word. Anyway, just so happy that we got to work together. - Yeah. - I know, it's great. And Adam, you're so great on this show. And I'm so amazed by everything that you're doing. - Thanks, Teddy. - Well, thanks man, thanks for joining us. - Yeah, thanks, Teddy. - Yeah, thanks guys. - Okay, I'm so excited to dive into this episode with you because we shot it now a couple of years ago. - Isn't that crazy? - Yeah, yeah. - It really has been a couple of years. - It was March of 2023, yep. - Now the entire episode is with Innes but it's out fucking side, which is my favorite line. I think from the season is Dylan's first line when he emerges. - He knew there was no ceiling, but this is-- - Yeah, but this is insane, as always. - I don't know whatever it is. - So we're all outside because part of a Lumen reform called the Orkbow, which stands for Outdoor Retreat and Team Building Occurrence. Let's listen to Milchick telling the Innes about it on a DVD. - Good morning, refiners. This is Mr. Milchick from work and I'm thrilled to welcome you to your first ever Outdoor Retreat and Team Building Occurrence. - He is this. - This is perfect. - I know. - Is in response to your desire to see the outside world. - Mr. Milchick from work. - With your outies blessings, you will spend the next two calendar days walking the meadows, thickets, brambles and brooks that make up the Deeter Egan National Forest. What the fuck is Deeter Egan? - Deeter Egan, some of you may be quietly yearning to learn more. The truth you seek lies within the fourth appendix. - Wow. - So, okay, this episode is a complete departure from the Innes world, but also the world of the series entirely. Do you wanna just talk about where it came from and why you wanted to do this? - Yeah, I think it was one of the original ideas for season two was we knew we wanted to do a corporate retreat of some type. And what would that be? So it was really trying to figure out what the reason would be for that, which felt like it really made sense in terms of Milchick trying to maybe do something. I think it's probably a good question that there is one answer for it or not in terms of what his motivation is for it. I think on the one hand, you see that there's some element of compassion that he has for the Innes, but this retreat is not really a fun experience for them. It's meant to, I think, on another level basically say, okay, you guys wanted to go see the outside world? - Yeah, well. - Here you go. - Yeah, yeah. - And it's not so easy and it's not so nice. - Yeah, yeah. And how it's organized, what he's doing, the okay's that he has from his superiors and all that we don't really know about. But it was an opportunity just to really dig into the weird mind games that Lumin plays with the Innes. And we talk about sometimes like the choices that you guys have to make in terms of like, what's the first thing I'm experiencing? Like, oh, I'm buttoning my shirt for the first time. You know, I've never done that before and it's not always appropriate to do that in an episode, but this was an opportunity for you guys to really take in the outside world in a way you'd never done before. And just as a production, you know, to go off and make this episode was, it was like we were making a little movie. - It really was. And you know, watching the episode again last night, I was like realizing just how expansive it is. And we were out there. We were out there in the elements for what, five weeks. - Yeah, I mean, we talked about how we were gonna make this episode. We, you know, we're not the kind of show that does that kind of visual effects of where we do something, you know, with green screen or something like that. So we knew we wanted to go to real location. At first, we started thinking about, you know, we knew snow was really important. And of course, like in our world, with climate change and, you know, finding snow is a really hard thing to do, even in the winter. - You can't depend on any location at any particular point in the year. - Right, and we're based in New York with the production and it's hard to go very far away. We talked at one point about going maybe going to Colorado or going to Canada. And we realized that wasn't really feasible for us. But the Catskills were, you know, close by. We shoot a lot of our exteriors in upstate New York in a town called Kingston. And this was a little bit further west and out there more. But we have a great location manager named Ryan Smith and Ryan went out and started searching around. And we found this, the biggest centerpiece for the episode is the waterfall. Yes. - Here's Twin was always with him. That's why we provided the very same for each of you. - Fuck you all, I was right. - Mr. Milchick. This is the tallest waterfall on the planet. You have followed the path of Keir, indeeder, and reached Wolves' Hollow. You stand upon Sacred Earth. - We're starving, Mr. Milchick. - Are you? I thought the waterfall's grandeur would satiate you. I'm teasing, of course. So finding this waterfall was sort of the key. And Ryan found a washting falls, which is near Lake Minowasca. And Lake Minowasca was where that lake is. And-- - But that was the other part of it too, is the frozen lake, the cliff above it. - Yeah. Well, this was also like, it was written originally that you guys were in a clearing. - That's right. - And then all of a sudden they hear you and they're like, you kind of come out of the woods or something. - Right. And we thought, this is something we could really find. Something that's a little bit more dramatic. And we found this lake that has this cliff over it. And we thought, well, wouldn't it be cool if Mark is standing up on top of the cliff and Irving is in the middle of the lake? - Yeah, which we really, I was really up on that cliff. He was out in the middle of the frozen lake and we were actually screaming to each other. - Yeah, yeah. That was fun to do. Look, the whole episode was so dependent on weather too. We got so lucky. - I remember was touching go for a while and then right before our shooting dates, right, before moving up there, there was a big storm, am I right? - Yes, there was a storm that like for the four weeks that we were shooting, basically we needed snow and a storm happened. And it only happened like at the altitude, the snow was at the altitude that we were shooting at. But everybody kind of moved up to the Catskills for a while and we were staying in hotels around there. We were based in a cord. We had a really fun roller skating wrap party. - That was really fun. - At a place called Skate Time in a cord in New York. You know Bjorn Corn, the popcorn? That's where I discovered it and I eat it to this day. - Yeah, so that skate rink is owned by Bjorn of Bjorn Corn and Stephanie has loved Bjorn Corn. - Yeah, and they hosted us and we had, I mean, we had a really good time. There were, I mean, it was a huge production in terms of like having to get up to where the campsite was. You know, you had to take these like snow cats or you know, other like kind of vehicles to get up there especially when the weather hit. - Oh yeah, I mean, just for the actors to get to set and this means that everything else was 18 times more difficult. Just for the actors, we would drive from where we were staying for a while and then arrive at the base of the mountain, get out of the car and get onto a snow cat because there were no actual roads going up to where we were shooting, right in the snow cat up to the top of the mountain where we had our base camp which was just a series of tents with heaters in them and that is where we were all day and we would go venture off and shoot from there sometimes needing to hike for 45 minutes or something to get to where we were shooting. - The cave, the cave, yeah. Scissor cave was a real hike. There was no way to reach that little cave except to hike at least, yeah, it was like about 30 minutes. But our camera crew had to literally carry those heavy cameras in camera cases. It was an ordeal, it was an ordeal. And the weather was constantly changing when we were filming the episode two and the other big centerpiece of the episode is Irving's dream. The cliff where we find you in the beginning and where you have the scene with Milchick and then you see the shadow off on the cliff, the sort of faceless version of you. That was at a place called Sam's Point and in this Peter's Kill area, which was a little bit away from Lake Minowasca. This is the Shawung Gunk Mountains. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful place. - Really, really gorgeous. - And we had to shoot that dream sequence. Basically, we had to switch our schedule around because one morning we came into work and it was really foggy and snow had fallen and it was so foggy that if we had shot that scene if you guys on the cliff with the TV, you wouldn't have seen any of that vista. So Jessica, our cinematographer, made the call to say, let's go shoot the dream. And so we went over to this sort of burned out forest area that was at altitude, that was near that cliff and it was foggy and eerie. And what you see when Irving walks to the cubicle in the middle, we brought the cubicle out to the middle of this charred out forest. And that's not a set, that's not visual effects, that's all real, real fog. - That was extraordinary because I wasn't there, but you told me about it when you guys got back and looking at the dailies, it looks like it was designed and it looks like special effect. Like you never could have asked for better fog placement for better colors. I mean, it is beautiful and it was all naturally occurring. - Yeah, we were so lucky, we were just so lucky with the elements and then the ability that we had as a crew to kind of like change our plan and just go do that, made all the difference. And then we shot in this sort of this blueberry field where you guys were walking through where Irving's reading from the Kier book, the Fourth Appendix. - And it was difficult to walk because we had these boots, we need to talk about the wardrobe, but we had these boots that also had crampons attached to them that were made for walking on slippery ice. They're basically like almost like straight claws that lift you in extra like five inches off the ground, but walking through deep snow and or blueberry bushes made lifting our feet up and down, exhausting and we were all drenched and sweat by the time we made it across this field. - I mean, Sarah Edwards, our costume designer, just did incredible work where that was the other thing. We knew all we were going to have were you guys out there and the snow, so what are the costumes going to be? What would they put, what would Lumen put you in? And I think Dan had this idea that it would be something that would feel like it was from like a hundred years ago. And she came up with just the most beautiful costumes, these black coats, these black fur hats. - And everything down to the undergarments were period, were from a particular time. - The like Revenant era. - And it was just really, that choice was really important 'cause we knew we were gonna sort of live with that for the whole episode. - Yeah, and also the color of the wardrobe that everyone had, it's particularly beautiful and particularly stark when up against the snow. It's really, really just incredible to look at the four figures moving across the landscape. - Yeah, and I remember we should be shot tests of you guys and that, and I remember Milchick's outfit, which is white and kind of. - Yep, and Miss Wong as well. - Yeah, Miss Wong too, and there's like a Jeremiah Johnson vibe going on there. - They look like they're in the Empire Strikes Back and we look like we're in Jeremiah Johnson. - Right, yeah. - All right, let's take a break and we'll come back and talk a little bit more about some of the plot stuff that's going on in this episode. - All right, so a lot of different things going on in this episode, the big thing, of course, is that since episode one, Irving has been suspicious that Helly is not telling the truth about what went on with her when she had her outy act of it. - Yeah, something about it just hasn't sat right with him since that first episode when they all got back. - So you guys are trudging through the snow when he's suspicious and he's asking about the night gardener comment. - Yeah, he's sort of starting to pick apart Helly's story a little bit and to Mark, it just kind of is out of the blue and feels ridiculous. Like what are you even talking about? - Yeah, and I think that's also probably because Mark is so into Helly at this point too and maybe wanted to see that. - And thinking about Irving and Irving being the one who started to pick up on something strange about Helly, I wonder if because he's so heartbroken and he's so sort of emotionally wrong, split open if he's extra sensitive to the vibrations of everyone in the group or something because he, from the very start, sees something very wrong but can't quite put his finger on. - That's right. And you even see that in episode three a little bit too when you guys go out to look for the goat people. - Yeah, she stops and comforts him and takes liberties that just feel a little off. - Yeah, and then you're trudging through the snow, you discover the dead seal by the way a moment in time when real snow came down from the heavens just for like three hours while we shot that scene and three hours all of that scene because we knew the snow was going away. - Just real quick, I remember when we were shooting this with John and I and him asking me about the night gardener, we were walking through a raw space where snow had fallen and no one had walked since the snow fell. - That's right. - So you were extra excited because there was fresh snow for us though, organically fresh. - You were like on this little peninsula in this little brook and could have fallen into the creek at any moment because who knew? - It was very delicate shooting that scene but I remember being so excited that we were getting that snow and then the weird campfire, I mean, we could have a whole separate podcast about Milchick's crazy tale of the Tempor Woe that it's just one of my favorites from Elle Moments in the series, but then Irving pushes helly about what really went on. - Just tell us about him. Who? The night gardener. - Oh, Earth come on. - Did he have a flashlight, hmm? What was he wearing? - What is your deal right now, dude? - What color was his shirt? - He really kind of makes a spectacle of it really embarrasses her in front of everyone. - Yes, yes he does. And then he goes off into the forest and has this weird dream at the same time, this huge experience happens in the show which is that you and Helly sleep together. And as that's happening, Irving is having this dream where the Tempor Woe shows up and maybe for a second, I think you might see an image of, like just the slightest image of Helly in her face. And then he wakes up knowing that he has to confront her and confronts her out by the waterfall. - So it's almost like there have been some random puzzle pieces scattered in front of Irving now for a few episodes and it's this dream that is abstract but it's the dream that sort of puts them together and he knows when he wakes up, he knows what's going on. - Yeah, and I think he's been trusting his instincts more from these dreams that he's been having from season one too. But let's take a listen to that scene. - Mr. Milchick, come! - Look! Mr. Milchick! Mr. Milchick! - Look! - Hey! - Turn up that, Mr. Milchick! - What are you doing, man? - Turn up that, what the fuck! - She's an outing! - Yeah! - Hey! - Irving, how you doing? - Yeah! - She's put it out in the whole time. - I'm just in chief game, man. - Irving, you stop now! - Stop it! - Irving, stop this! She's a fucking moan! - What are you doing? - I'm gonna kill her, Mr. Milchick! (dramatic music) - The jig is up at this point. - Yeah, yeah. And this was, I mean, what, you know, this was a scene that was a bear to shoot. I mean, you're, you know, you guys are up on a cliff. He had to attempt to drown Brit in this icy cold water. - So cold. - There were so many aspects to shooting this scene to put it all together. But really, it's, you know, it's one of my favorite Irving John Tutura moments in the series. - It's beautiful. - And do you wanna talk about the close-up of Helly being dunked in the water, being shot later at our stages up on a platform? - Yeah, we created, we had to create a tank, a little mini tank that we could put the camera under and have a camera person, a scuba diving camera person underneath so that they could see the close-up on Brit's face when she transitions and several transitions. But I have to say, John's reading, when he says, she's a fucking mole. - Yeah. - It's this, you know, aspect of Irving. It's just like this strong, dark, incredibly, you know, forceful version of Irving that we've never seen before. And that whole scene as challenging as it was to shoot, just it's the acting, I think, is just so great there where Milchick, you know, banishes him. And I think it's pretty emotional. John is world-class and you see it here, he's a heavyweight. - Yeah, he's one of the greats. - And I love that when Zach is yelling out, you know, 'cause he's like, you just hear the pain in his voice. - That was emotional. I remember it being emotional, on set, watching John walk away. I remember we were off camera just being there for I line for John, but we were all weeping, watching him turn around and walk away. It was really, because also, you know, Irving from the moment he smashes the egg in the book in season one, he has not only defined for himself what right and wrong is, but I think he's been a living definition of right and wrong for the rest of us. And him being excommunicated in that moment was heartbreaking. - Yeah. - Your workspace will be cleared and any personal items discarded. Your file, including any and all professional interactions and personal relations, will be purged and destroyed. It will be as if you, Irving B, never even existed nor drew a single breath upon this earth. Make here's mercy, follow you into the eternal dark. Now. - And I remember thinking about how Milchick could do this because we had discussions about, well, how is he gonna, you know, turn him off? How is he gonna, are there gonna be security guards that come and drag him away? You know, what's gonna happen? And we came to the conclusion that something in Irving is probably accepting this. And the strength of the mind control that Milchick has and they have over these innings is so strong, but I think ultimately there's something in Irving that accepts his fate and maybe in some level, the love sickness for birth or something in there, he has to somehow. And watching John come to that realization is pretty amazing. - Yeah, I think the moment he makes the decision to out her as who she is, he knows he's done for and he's doing it for his brother in there, his compadres. - Right, but he does tell Dylan to hang in there. - Yep. - All right, before we go, it's time to check in with our telepathic friend, Zach Cherry, to find out what he thinks. - The octopus of us all. - The octopus that is Zach Cherry, what he knows deep in his heart will happen in episode five. Let's hear it. - Hello again, it's Zach here. You know what time of the episode it is. This is your favorite part of the episode. The feedback has been coming in and people are saying, they skip right to this part. Sorry, Ben and Adam, but it's what I've heard. Anyway, you know what's coming. Next time on Severance. You know, we've seen me, innies have one field trip and now I think it's time to see them have another. They're gonna go to the mall and watch a movie. Wow, their first movie, that's exciting. What was your first movie? Call in and tell Ben and Adam, what is the first movie you ever watched. For me, it was the movie, meet the parents, starring my friend, Ben Stiller. I watched that. It was the first movie I ever saw. - Okay, all right. - Wait a minute. - You know what? - Wait a minute. - So much of that just doesn't add up. - This first movie at 20? - Yeah, his first movie was at 20. - He's just trying to get to me. - Yeah, he is. He's trying to make us feel old. - It's not gonna work, Zach. All right, I'm sure your first movie was probably like Madagascar or something like that. - Exactly. Something else Ben Stiller created or is a part of. - Yeah, right. It's nice. Isn't it nice to be at that point of your career when people come and say, "I grew up watching it happen to me in front of you?" - I saw it. - And you were so happy that I experienced that. - I was like, welcome to my world. It was someone that came up and said, "I've been watching you since I was a little kid and you mean so much to me?" Which was lovely and so kind of them to come up and say, but it strikes a particular chord when someone says, 'cause you know when you're out acting in front of cameras, you were a grown-up, which means you are now an old person. - It's also the person telling you, when you look at the person you go, "This person's like maybe like almost middle aged?" - Exactly. - Yeah, that's the inferiority part. - And you're younger than I am, but I have come, I've been dealing with this for a while now, and I've come around to like appreciating it. Like I don't even have any weirdness about it now when people, I really do appreciate it, like no joking. But it was fun to watch you really experience it for the first time and just like the pale kind of wash of, that's like, oh my God. - I didn't even know it was apparent what I was going through, but then I just turned my head and you're like, yeah, see, Zach Cherry is 48, by the way. - Yeah, he's older than both of us. - All right, we did it, we did it, man. - We did, we are done and that is it for this episode. The Severance podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about season two episode five. - And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday. - And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions and Great Scott Productions. - If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Milofsky, Gabriel Lewis, Jenner Weissberman and Leah Restennis. The show is produced by Sandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basel. We had additional engineering from Hobby Cruces and Davey Sumner. - Show clips are courtesy of fifth season, music by Theodore Shapiro. - Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Mora Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LaVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney and Hillary Schuff. - And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesa Cobb, John Pablo Antanetti, Martin Belderudin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker and Oliver Acker. - And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin and Christie Smith at Rise Management. - We had additional production help from Kristin Torres and Melissa Slotter. I'm Ben Stiller. - And I'm Adam Scott. - Thanks for listening. - And how dare you, Mr. Milchick, for throwing out my marshmallows. - I am a team player.