S2E4 Experiences with societal Autistiphobia (A talk with Ashra Louisa from @autisticafterhours)

Unpacking Autistiphobia and Ableism in Progressive Spaces Hello, welcome to another episode of Unpacking Neuro Queerness. I have my good friend Ashra back on the podcast today. You guys might remember her from previous episodes and also from my latest film, Neuro Divergent Stories. Welcome back, Ashra. Speaker 2 Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great to be back. Speaker 1 And so today we are going to be talking about autistophobia, basically ableism, the the specific kind of ableism against autistic people and just like general bias and prejudice that people have in society. And so I guess to start out, before we get into like some examples of things that we've noticed, to give a general societal example of what I'm talking about, I wanted to talk about this popular media figure called Master Walter Masterson. He is a so-called progressive comedian that has he's a quite popular on Instagram and Facebook and I think TikTok and such. And he, I don't know if he's been called out enough on this. And I don't know, this serves as a warning to everyone listening to this as well. If you happen to follow his page, which I did last year, he posted a video stitching a comment from a person that in my view was likely autistic and was saying he was clearly autistic. And I think from my perspective, it was a way of that person trying to connect with him. Kind of like when you see someone that's queer and you're queer, you're like, oh, I think you're queer. And, and, and I think this person was doing that. And I think a lot of us try to do that like, oh, you're autistic. But then he not only, I mean, clearly this man has intense internalized ableism like a lot of people. And he clearly immediately not only took that as an insult, but decided to make a video stitching the comment and calling it a hateful comment, saying that haters like that paid for his Caribbean vacation. And then he proceeds to, in a very non progressive way, in my opinion, show off like his luxury resort that he's at or whatever it was. Like not only he's framing autism as an insult, but he's also like rubbing it in people's faces as they're struggling that he's on a luxury vacation. So yeah, that was very, very problematic. I ended up reaching out to him and to no surprise, he did not respond. But I think one of the things about that that was more appalling to me, and I think it's the point of the example is that in the comments section, people that probably mostly identify as progressive and would call themselves inclusive were cheering him on and saying, oh, you showed them or whatever. And that just was baffling to me. I mean, on one hand, sadly, because of what I had already seen up until this point, it didn't surprise me. But at the same time, it was just kind of a reminder of that harsh reality of that wow, even in spaces with people that claim that they're committed to being anti racism and anti homophobia and anti sexism and all of that, which is very important, they miss this fundamental piece of anti ableism that is like a core. Like these things are all connected. So like, it's just the core. You can't, in my view, you really can't call yourself fully progressive and like anti oppression if you're not even recognizing ableism. And it's just so frustrating because I see that a lot in the like out there in the Internet, like, and I don't know if you've noticed this too, Ashra, but it's like, I'll say, I'll see people say things like, oh, we should fight racism, sexism, homophobia, like maybe a few other things, like any kind of prejudice, but they leave out ableism or they leave out like or like they we should include such and such and such and such and such. And they leave out autism or autistics and yeah. The Double Empathy Problem and Communication Struggles Yeah, I've definitely seen that. And hearing you talk about this scenario specifically reminds me of like a time, I think it might have been like close to two years ago at this point. But there was this, there is this person that I used to watch on some social media platform, mostly just for entertainment, like lifestyle content. And I found it entertaining. But she had received a comment or multiple comments saying like, have you considered that you're autistic? Like sometimes I notice in your content that you, you exhibit some autistic traits. And she stitched that and she basically was like, can you guys please stop like telling me that I'm autistic. I'm not autistic. Like it's so rude of you to be saying this about me. And while on one hand, I understand that it can be very impacting to have people like kind of trying to almost diagnose you, like I understand that there's boundaries being crossed there potentially. And at the same time, I don't think it's nice to go about it in a way of framing it as this person is saying something bad about me, like a person saying that they think you might have autistic traits or like you are exhibiting certain autistic traits that maybe they even relate to that shouldn't be taken as an offense or like a hateful statement. And there is a way for you to shut that down. If if it makes you uncomfortable, there's a way to say like, no, I'm not. And like, stop saying this like you can, you can create that boundary without framing it as you taking offense to that. Because you taking offense to that and framing it as something hateful is ableist because you are saying that it is a bad thing to be autistic. Speaker 1 Yes, exactly. I I think like definitely like it's valid that OK, like people shouldn't be like, I understand like she wouldn't want people to be diagnosing her. But like you said, there's like so many ways to communicate that without resorting to ableism, without framing autism as a bad thing. And it's interesting. I just also remembered now, something that I've seen people do, I still see it so often, is they'll use ableism to attack. Like they're trying to rightfully attack someone who is maybe being outwardly racist or homophobic or something, but they'll use ableism to attack them because they'll call them autistic or they'll call them mentally ill. And it's like, I'm just like they're being so appallingly disrespectful and ableist. Like they're under this, this intent. It's such a baffling thing because there's like they think they're fighting, they're like successfully fighting racism or homophobia, but they're like at the same time throwing like all, like all autistic people, especially queer autistic people and biocontistic people under the bus by like frame by like using autism or mental illness even as an excuse, as an insult. And I'm just baffled by it. I'm like, like these I'm, I'm like, wow, this person has probably never met an openly autistic or an openly mentally ill or psychiatrically disabled person because they would know if they had that. Some of these folks can be lovely people. So I guess I wanted to ask you a little bit about like what are some of the general themes? Like, without saying anything that anyone has said, what are some of the general themes that tend to come up about this in your groups? Speaker 2 I think this is a big thing that comes up in Group because in Group we're surrounded by other autistic people, so it feels like a safe space to talk about the struggles and like the things that we encounter in daily life that in singular instances can be really harmful. But also the accumulation, the accumulation of the hurtful comments and things that we experience can be really impactful. Also a lot of times people talk about like small things that come up in conversations whether it be with family members, friends, workplace dynamics where people constantly knowingly or unknowingly position autistic people as the people that need to adjust themselves for the systems around them without any questions, understanding or or effort to see the autistic person's perspective. And a lot of people know this to be called the devil empathy problem, where autistic people are often doing so much work to adjust themselves for the people and the systems around them. And holistic people are not meeting them even close to halfway when it comes to having any sort of empathetic response to diverse experiences or perspectives or ways of existing. I think some common things that come up in Group is that people talk about communication struggles, like things like maybe needing more time to process things and a person assuming that that means that you're disinterested. Or a person assuming that you're you're being rude or you are just not engaging in the conversation. When really it's that you maybe need more time to process and there's no space created for that. Something that I also think comes up a lot is differences in in the ways that we might communicate. Autistic people might might sometimes be a bit more straightforward. Sometimes people call this bluntness or, or just a lot of honesty. Whereas holistic people may tend to kind of use more subtext in, in their speech. They may kind of sugarcoat things a little bit more, soften things a little bit more, which I don't know if I like the word soften, but like kind of sugarcoat things. And because of this difference in communication, again, autistic people are often labeled as screwed, as overly harsh, as being argumentative, and there is no room for for us to explain our perspective. It's just a quick mislabelling of us as needing to change for them. And these things happen all the time. They come up in Group all the time. I've experienced it in my own life so often. And it's really sad because I think it leads autistic people to carry so much guilt, shame and blame around with them. And this can really impact the way that you experience social situations. It can make you feel so isolated, so lonely. It can make you feel like a bad person when you're not. You're just being misunderstood chronically. And it sucks that that is so often the way that autistic people have to move through life because of how much of A lack of acceptance and understanding and even just curiosity there is for the autistic experience. Navigating Fast-Paced Conversations and Social Exclusion Exactly. I agree with everything you said and it it resonates very strongly with me. Several things like the processing for instance, that's probably one of the things that comes up the most for me is it's like people don't like, I feel like people are conditioned to allow very little time, almost no time. Like feels like one second for processing and I feel like I need at least three to five seconds, probably in a conservative estimate because it's just like the person says something and it, I've noticed that compared to most people, it's like a, it feels like there's a computer doing math in my head and it needs, I need to wait for that to computer to click. It's, it's things. And then I can understand and I'm like, oh, OK. And then, then after those few seconds, I'm ready. Like if the person is already like familiar with me or already knows or is like more patient, which can happen. Thankfully, there are great people that are like that. Some of them then it's helpful because then they allow that and then I'm actually able to give an authentic reaction. Then if they wait, then that's my reaction. Then I'll actually have a reaction to it. But what happens so often is that they'll say something and then I'll be processing. So my face is sort of like in a frozen state it looks like. I can see how it can appear like that from the outside, but it's just so frustrating because they automatically within one or two seconds, then take that as my response to their whatever they said and they assume that I'm either not interested or I didn't understand or I disagree. I usually get like that kind of vibe and then they're just like they like either explain it again or they're like, Oh well, I mean like this or that or, or I don't know. And then it's just like, I also feel bad. It makes me kind of triggers like my hyperempathy sometimes. And then I feel bad because I'm trying to like fix the mistake or whatever, or like the miscommunication or I don't want them. Like I legitimately don't want them to think that I didn't like what they said or that I was attacking them or like disagreeing with them. It's just so nuanced and like it's hard to even explain because I feel like it's such little details that like misunderstandings like this that happen so often. It's like you were mentioning the like the social trauma that we end up developing from being so chronically misunderstood. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And this happens to me all of the time in Group settings when I'm not with other autistic people. When I'm in a group with other, with just holistic people, the conversation often moves so fast because the processing speed is so different. So they are just like doing this kind of back and forth thing and I feel like there is no space or no, there is never enough of a pause for me to be able to join the conversation. And then because of that, people think of me as standoffish or like I don't want to be a part of the group when really I want to join in. I want to share, but I don't have any room to jump in because there's not enough time for me to actually process what's being said and formulate a response. Something I notice about myself too is that when I'm engaging in conversation, I, I tend to think a lot before I am ready to say what I want to say. It sometimes takes me a few extra seconds to kind of clarify in my mind what it is that I want to say before I say it. I'm just not a person that I don't, I don't tend to think. I don't tend to speak before I think it through. I I think a lot before I say it. And so I really need extra processing time to figure out what it is that I want to say. And there's just so often not enough time built into ballistic conversation patterns and it feels really exclusive and like not accessible to me a lot of the time. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. I I feel the same way. Like I, I need that time to process and I, and, and then or just like sit in it or like, also like, I totally relate to like trying to keep up with the conversation. And that's because of the processing, like you said. And it's not even, I get it that it's not even in most cases, it's not even something that people are doing intentionally, but they don't realize that by moving at such a quick pace, they're affecting people that need more time. And it's just funny. It's just like they're so not used to it. That's like one of the, I guess it's just one of the examples of how like there's such little information about autism and like these things out there because like so many times it's uncomfortable for me because like I have to sometimes actually tell the person like, Hey, you mind going a little slower? And then like in, in Group settings, it can be really challenging to do that. And I, I totally relate to what you said about being seen as standoffish and, or another thing that will happen is that people will think something's wrong with me. People will be worried and they'll be like, are you OK? Or is everything OK? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. I'm, I'm just vibing here. I'm like, I'm not like, I don't know why you're so concerned. Like it's people have this like, Oh my God, it drives me crazy. It drives me crazy. It's like if you're in a group with Alistic people and they're talking, talking and they're doing their back and forth ping pong of, of topics and you're just like trying, you're just barely keeping up and you're there, but you're keeping up and then like they see you quiet. It's like not to criticize. I I know, I understand that it's just like how everyone is conditioned but. It's like they think it's like people automatically assume that Oh my God, you must be unwell or you must be like sick or tired or upset. And it just over the years I noticed that it did stop start bugging me a little bit when I would get that kind of like, Oh my God, are you OK? Because it didn't, because I at first I was like, oh, this person is like concerned because they think I'm unwell. And then I started thinking, but wait, but they think I'm unwell just because I'm trying to process. And so I don't know. So then after a while it started to kind of bother me. And it's it definitely, it's something I can resonate with too, yeah. Speaker 2 I've had that happen to me too. And sometimes what, what I've noticed is that will really like overwhelm me because people like while I'm trying to process what's going on, people will then come to you and like demand your they, they're not meaning to, but like they're demanding your attention because they're like, oh, are you OK? Like what's going on? You're being so quiet. So like, while my brain is trying to keep up with what's going on around me, now I have to like redirect my attention to address this. And like, it also feels like no matter how much I tell a person that I'm OK, sometimes no amount of convincing works. And then they're like continuous attention on me will make me overstimulated and like really anxious. And then that makes everything like, then that's when I start to really feel like, OK, maybe I don't feel OK now, but there's like. Speaker 1 Oh my God, There's another thing that happens often to me is that I'll be say like I walk into a room with a bunch of people or something and and then everyone tries to talk to me or say something at the same time. Like it happens. Like one person will come up and I'm like, OK, I'm engaging with this person. And then it baffles me. Like literally at the same time as I'm in conversation with this person, someone else comes up and like, oh, hey, I don't know how are you or this or that. And then I'm like, I hate that because I'm like, I can't because like someone is going to feel like left out or that I was like rude to them or whatever because I'm like, I can't. I physically and mentally literally do not have the capacity to respond and be engaged with both people at the same time. So it's like there always ends up being some kind of awkward slip of some kind or awkward moment where it's like I'm trying to engage with this even either either I'm engaged with this person and I have to completely sidetrack and like say a response to this person. And then it's like there's an awkward moment and people laugh. And that kind of bugs me because it's like, oh, it's funny to you that I'm struggling. And because they probably don't know that I'm struggling, but it's like, Oh my gosh, I'm just trying to figure this out. Or either I do that or I end up having to kind of ignore the second person because I'm like, oh, like I'm going to, I don't want to just turn away from this person. So yeah, I don't know if that's something that happens to you as well, but like the two people at once thing is, is really stressful for me. The Struggle of Social Adjustments and Microaggressions Yeah, I find that stressful too. And something that I think relates to this, which I never really hear anyone like specifically addressing this, but part of the diagnostic criteria for autism in the DSM 5, it's a difficulty adjusting to suit various contexts, like a difficulty adjusting behavior to various contexts. And I see this as almost like a direct interpretation of what the struggle behind masking sometimes can feel like. Because part of why like masking and part of why adjusting to behavior is so difficult is because that's that's actually a part of being autistic for a lot of people is like struggling with those adjustments or transitions. And so I think part of part of what made me think of that hearing you talk about the difficulty with like talking to one person and then another person coming is because it, it completely forces you to like reorient and re understand the dynamic. That's it. That's at play. Because like you were in a conversation with one person and now this other person has come over and the dynamic is completely different. And it requires such an immediate adjustment on your part to like re understand and reorient to this dynamic, which I think for holistic people is maybe a quick and easy process, but for autistic people can be very strenuous and requires a lot of internal adjustment that is not easy to do on the spot. And it can again, affect like it's like the process what's happening and like try and re navigate how to now like adjust yourself and the conversation to include this other person. And it's just like really hard to do that. And I have had that happen where it leads to like so much awkwardness. And I feel a lot of times like I'm holding all of that awkwardness because it's just like, I don't know, it's just. Speaker 1 It's hard to explain to people. I feel like, I, I feel like it's, it's hard for like there's such a disconnect because of, like, I feel like the people that are coming up to you don't really understand what's going on. Or they laugh because they think that you're being funny or trying to be funny or joking. But it's like it ends up being upsetting because it's like, Oh no, I'm just really struggling and you're laughing. And it's, it's really hard to explain to them the internal process that's going on in my head, like all these different computations that are going on in my head. And I know this is jumping back to microaggressions a little bit, but it's making me think this is what I want to tell people or explain when I, when they say to me, oh, everyone is a little autistic when I tell them that I'm autistic. And so I'm like, oh really? So do you like get paralyzed in your head and like try to try and like figure out how to respond when people talk to you? Oh, cool, I didn't know that. So do you get like stuck in your room standing in one spot for 5 minutes because you can't figure out like you're worried that something bad is going to happen or that you're not sure what your next move should be because there are all these different social variables involved? It makes me want to like just, and see what people's faces do when I start, when they have the audacity to tell me that everyone is a little autistic. I, I think that's what I got to start doing. I'm like, wow, really? Do you really even know like what the internal experience of this can be like? Speaker 2 Yeah, people just, it's so, it's so frustrating when people have that reaction. It just makes me wanna it's, it's so frustrating 'cause it's like, I feel like they also feel like they're doing something nice. Speaker 1 Exactly. Speaker 2 And like, that's almost the worst part 'cause it's like, I just wanna be like, that is not a nice remark. Like, that is not a nice way to approach this. Like it's so invalidating. You're basically telling me that my struggles aren't real because you're saying, oh, like everyone has that. Like everyone deals with that. It's so dismissive and people just don't understand that. Speaker 1 Exactly. The Impact of Being Perceived While Unintentionally Stimming And it's, it's also like, I've, I've noticed that it, it, it's the, the whole thing of them thinking they're helping that that's what really crushes me is like, they really think that like, particularly with the mild thing, or like when they say, oh, your autism must be mild or oh, everyone's a little autistic. They they're doing that same kind of thing where I think it comes from the same kind of internalized ableism from the Walter Masterson thing where they're they in their head when they think autism, they automatically associate it with a negative or something bad or like as if, Oh my God, I'm, I'm like saying that I was that I like did something bad or like, it's just like, that's what it feels like. I just told them that I did something bad or that I am. But it's like they think I'm saying I am bad or I am evil or I am this or that. And I'm like, no, I'm saying I'm autistic. So it's like that's, I think probably one of the main things that really still needs to change in society is that I, I want people to start viewing autism as a neutral thing because it then it kind of just normalizes it as a part. It like autistic things and behaviors and preferences and, and whatnot. It needs to be normalized. And, and this is something like I get from family members and even like, well, intending family members and friends sometimes is that they'll like point out to me when I'm stimming or like when I'm doing A, and even if they're doing it in a fun way, like, oh, you're stimming or this or that, or, or when they're talking about another autistic person that they watched and oh, and she was stimming and doing this. And I'm like, yeah, I get that. It's like you're talking about stimming in an affirming way, but it's also like it's keeping it. It's, it's not normalizing it really. Because if you continue, because I feel like if people, I mean, I don't know, like it's one thing if you're like, oh, oh, they're stimming, yeah, they're stimming. But it's like when you're like, Oh my God, you're stimming. And like, Oh my God, you're like doing this or you're doing that. It's like making this whole like thing out of it. Like, Oh my God, I'm doing some crazy wild thing, like I'm climbing a wall or something and I'm like, no, I'm stimming. It's that like I, I think it needs to be the reaction of like you're drinking milk, you're eating chocolate, like you're stemming, you're, you're doing this, you're wearing that. Indeed. I think that's just another thing I've noticed. I don't know if you you've noticed this as well, but it's like kind of the like people's like over emphasis or over reaction to it. Speaker 2 Definitely. I've also had people like when I'm stemming again with the, oh, is everything OK? Like, why are you shaking your leg like that? Why are you, why are you like moving your fingers like that? Like, are you OK? And I'm like, I'm regulating myself like I'm stemming because there are lots of different reasons why I might be stemming. Like maybe it's because I'm overstimulated. Maybe it's because I'm excited, like maybe whatever. Like it's just a natural part of regulation for my body and to have people's attention directed to it. It's it like shuts that down. Like it makes me feel like I can't do it because people are going to assume that something is wrong or they're going to make a big deal of it. Whatever it is, it feels like there are like socially acceptable ways to STEM and then there's socially unacceptable ways in other people's eyes. And it's really annoying because something else I notice is sometimes the harm more harmful stem is like the more socially, socially acceptable 1 because one of my more harmful stems is picking my cuticles to the point of them like bleeding. So I could be like picking my cuticles and no one will say anything about that. But then when I'm like jumping up and down or I'm like, I don't know, like moving my hands in a certain way, people will point that out and make me feel weird. And it's so annoying because it's like, oh, so when I do this harmful thing, you're OK with it, but because it's socially acceptable and common. But when I do this maybe less common thing that is not harming me or anyone else, now everyone's attention is brought to it and I feel uncomfortable and I have to go back to doing the harmful thing because that's the thing that won't get pointed out. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like it's very interesting, like there are sort of stems that I think became because like the like picking your fingernails or or such. Like I think maybe there's some Alistic people that do that as well. Or I think it's just more shown in like TV and media for some reason. It's like feels like it's this sort of stem that's people don't even realize it's a stem, but it's like so normalized. But then yeah, like anything like flapping your hands or moving like this or doing this, I mean, I guess people can't see what I'm doing. But yeah, just like any kind of flapping or rubbing or like anything like you mentioned, that's more like people don't well, not, not say people don't do it, then it just doesn't get represented or shown as much or talked about in media or even their films that it like throws people off. And then people like notice. And then it's just unfortunate because even if people are pointing it out in a nice kind way, like there was one time that someone said or, oh God, I think you were stimming or I noticed you're stimming or even like, oh, that's great that you were stimming. It makes me super self-conscious. It makes me like, Oh well, I didn't even realize that I was stimming because I wasn't like intentionally stimming. And I think that's something that Alistic people tend to still miss. Even the people that are more neuroaffirming is that I feel like they tend to still miss the mark on like if you tell me that I like, if you tell me that I was stimming and I wasn't aware that I was stimming, it makes me feel weird. Or maybe even if I was aware because you're pointing it out because it's like, and, and to me, it's like I don't stem with intention. I'm not, I mean, it's not something that I'm like, oh, I'm gonna stem or I'm stemming now or I'm doing this stemming. It just happens because it's just how my body, like you said, it's like how my body is regulating itself in this moment And I just like I'm used to it now. So like I just let it happen. And to me it's like, oh, I was just talking about this or talking about that. I'm not thinking about the stemming. But then someone mentions the stemming and I'm like, Oh my God, like when was I stemming? And then I get super curious. So like if they say, oh, you were stemming in this episode, I'll sometimes go back to the episode and it's like, this person probably didn't think I was going to do that or didn't intend that. But I'm like literally going back to the episode now to Fig to find it because I'm like, now I'm self-conscious about it now I want to know. Speaker 2 I've also had people like I think I've had, I've had such in the past where maybe I was like stemming in a way that I didn't realize. And I've actually had people then do it in front of me to be like, oh, like, do you not like they'll like copy what I'm doing and and I'll be like, it's so. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's. I would feel awkward with that. Yeah, even even if they're trying, It's so it's like, I get it. Like I don't get mad at them because I get it that it's like, OK, their intent is not that and it helps, but I'm still a bit frustrated. I'm like, that made me really uncomfortable, like because it just feels like, I mean, it makes it, it's like they're announcing that you were, they're sort of in a way announcing that they were paying attention to you. So then you're like, oh, like I feel weird that this person was like perceiving me while I was just like trying to to do my thing. And I think that's another thing that people don't realize that it's important for non autistic people to understand is that sometimes autistic people like us, I know this has come up and not everyone, but it's come up and grew that we have, we get really self-conscious about being perceived. So anything that they do that is like if we weren't aware that we're being perceived, if it's not like something like if I'm doing a film or if I'm doing a, a video or something that I'm intending for people to watch. And I know that you do a lot of video content creation too. It's like then it's fine because I'm intending for people to watch this. But if if I'm not, if I'm just doing something like stimming and I'm not intending people to be paying attention to it, it's it can be stressful. Self-Care and Misinterpretations During Holiday Gatherings I guess one final thing, just touch on like what holiday holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas or like for you, because I feel like it can be one of the most stressful times of year with the overstimulation and all these people and all this stuff going on. And I guess I wanted to ask you like how you generally cope with it? Speaker 2 I would say, yeah, it's a very difficult thing. This year I am alone on Thanksgiving and I'm actually like really relieved because I'm like, Oh my God, I can just like relax and not have to worry and like, yeah, holidays are really hard. And I, I feel like a lot of times on holidays, I'm seen as like the bad person because it's like. For example, if we're having like a family gathering, I will often kind of go off on my own a lot like I'll go to a separate room and I will decompress. I will kind of try to escape as much as I can to try and regulate myself because it's very, very, very over stimulating to be with so many people at the same time for an extended period of time. And I also often will be the first to leave, the first to kind of remove myself. And people get very frustrated with that. People think that I'm being rude when it's not bad. It's just that I can't, I can't deal with the, the overstimulation of it for so many hours on my end. And like people see my way of decompressing or my way of regulation. They see that as me being rude, like me going to a separate room for a little while to, to kind of reduce the overstimulation. And it's so sad because it's like, or, you know, things like wearing my noise cancelling headphones, people will frame that as me trying to shut them out or me not wanting to engage in the conversation with them, like the same kinds of things that we've been talking about this whole episode. And it's sad because it's like what I do things like that, it's because I, I'm trying to stay here. Like I'm trying to keep myself involved when I use accommodations, when I wear my nose cancelling headphones, I'm wearing them so that I can be here so that the environment is accessible for me. Because without those accommodations, I wouldn't be able to withstand this and then I would have to leave. And it's like, it sucks when people frame your accommodations or like you're taking care of yourself. It sucks when they frame that as a bad thing when it's actually you're trying to make the environment accessible for yourself and it's a way of actually trying to include yourself and not having to remove yourself. So yeah, holidays are a really rough time. And for anyone listening like you are not alone in having difficulty with it, it's it's hard. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I think it's something that I get that it can be hard on some level for most people, but it really, I think for neurodivergent people it is at least to me, it feels sometimes like it's at least like 5 times or 10 times harder because like the just the intensity of like, I mean, there, there can be so many things for so many different people. But I think for me, it's mainly like the sensory overload of like all the smells and sounds and conversation like we were talking about earlier, like the constant like flow of conversation and switching of topics. And then people coming up to you at the same time, asking questions at the same time. And then I think like you mentioned, what really sucks out of most of all of it is when you're seen as rude or as like, like people take it personally, like people take it as an attack when you're just trying to take care of yourself, like you mentioned about like wearing a noise cancelling headphones or even like taking a break. And it's interesting that that came up because that's something that my, when I was talking to my therapist recently about like how I was feeling a bit anxious about Thanksgiving, she was telling me that that's something I can remind myself is that I can take breaks. Is that I can? Because if I'm with, and I realized, and I think someone mentioned this in Group 2 recently, like if you're with family, then it's kind of on them if they don't like when I started to see it like that, like, OK, if I'm with family, they know me, then they know I'm autistic and they still want to try to take it personally or like think that I'm being rude because I need, I literally need a break so I can regulate myself and not have a full blown meltdown, then it's on them because, and that has helped me a lot. And I know that it's not always possible and it's not always the case because it depends a lot on how much, how accepting and how understanding people are. But I think, I don't know, like I feel like I can still be misunderstood many times. And I think it does. It has, it did really help me to think like, Oh yeah, I can just go regulate myself and I don't need to because I think it's a lot of unlearning that we need to. I think we've been so conditioned to feel like we need to take care of like everyone else's feelings and how they're interpreting something about us and how it's coming across to them. And then we forget that, Oh no, I could just take care of myself. And then this person can choose to not understand and and that's on them current. The Challenges of Direct Communication and Personal Interpretations Yeah. Like, and it's happened in so many times, like even like, I guess one final thing before we we go, we go. I just remembered this. I've had a situation lately. I mean, I've had this over the years, but I had a situation lately with a friend that was trying to get in touch with me to go out and I had to tell him very nicely, very cordially. I put this whole message together because, you know, we do tend to communicate very directly. And I just directly communicated, hey, I'd like to hang out with you too, but I'm really busy and overwhelmed right now and I think I'm not going to be able to for a few weeks. And he like his literally this person's first response was to send me the, the shocked emoji, like the emoji with the big eyes and the red cheeks of like, Oh my God, like I just cursed this person out. You know, I'm like, and then they said something like, Oh, no, I just wanted to check in. And because I had also asked as an autistic person, like, and I even tried to explain like I asked like, oh, what did you want to talk about? What? Because it, and I even said because it helps me prepare. And I was, I was thinking, OK, this person knows I'm autistic and I'm telling him that this is going to help me prepare. And he still ends up taking it personally and thinking, oh, I just wanted to check in. I thought we were friends, unless that's changed. And I'm like, why? Like, oh, OK, if we're, we're not friends. And I just spent 10 minutes carefully crafting this text message directly explaining to you why I want to, but I can't. And like he still doesn't understand. And then the person and then like a week later the messages me. And I'm going to I'm not going to name this person. I want to like respect their confidentiality. And I'm not trying to completely bash them either. This isn't meant as bashing, but I'm just trying to point out to people like when you do something like that, when you take something like, oh, what are we going to talk about? Or like just things that are like autistic needs and you take it personally. It actually makes me, it might make the autistic person feel more distant. Like in my case, it made me feel more distant. Like this person is like poke, poke, poke. Some kind of comment he made like, oh, when can I get in touch with your secretary? And that just was like insult, low key insulting to me is I'm just like, oh, you're, you're just assuming that I, you're like framing this whole thing as me feeling too good or like, which is another common microaggression I feel like we get is like people think that people automatically make it about them and think that we're saying that we're too good for them or whatever. And I'm like, and then I even responded to that directly, I think in a very autistic way, like, no, I don't have a secretary. And he's like, and then because I guess I didn't go along with his joke like that, that threw him off or whatever. But no, I just, I, I know I talk about like, I've talked about a lot of things that both you and I are very familiar with. But I just, I do this because I really want to emphasize to, to any non autistic listeners to really like not to not feel attacked by it, but to really reflect on why your autistic family member or your autistic friend might do this or that in certain cases. So without further ado, I just wanted to say thank you very much Ashra for for joining me again on the podcast. For those who don't know, Ashra is a really great friend of mine. We met a couple years ago when I actually came across her page, Ashra Louisa on Facebook. No, not Facebook, Instagram. And I, I had just started my podcast and I really enjoyed her content and I found it very relatable. And then we ended up talking on the podcast and then I ended up joining Asher's groups and we became friends. And so yes, it's, it's just been really great having this friendship and like being able to talk to you about these things. So thank you for coming on. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I really appreciate the work that you do in your advocacy and our friendship. And I'm really grateful that you reached out and that it like struck up all of this and, and now two years later, we're here reporting together again. It's awesome. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, it's super great. So yeah, well, I'm always awkward with goodbyes, but I wanted to say thank you everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it was helpful to you and I'll see you all next time.