S2E3: "Construction Junction: the Social Takes Shape"

[Music] Welcome. We're Jackie and Brian, and this is As the Ice Cream Churns. Together, we founded Ample Hills Creamery, one of the most beloved ice cream brands of the last decade. Then, we lost it all. We filed for bankruptcy a day before New York City shut down to the COVID-19. Now, someone else owns Ample Hills, and we're out of work. But we're ready to start over. Come join us for an exploration of what went wrong, and more importantly, what comes next. Our guides are close friend Debbie Rosen. She created the cracked cookies in her hit flavor, salted cracked caramel. When she's not baking, she's a therapist. We thought she could help us navigate these troubled waters. Let's get started. [Music] Hey, Daphson. Debbie. Hey, how's it going? Good, good. Good. Okay, how are you feeling about the fact that the social is a reality, and it's on this way to opening soon? Excited? Yeah, terrifying. That's you. No, excited. But I mean, it's just it's entering my dreams at night, and just the other night, maybe the night before last, I had this dream, and you know, you're a professional therapist. So I thought we could start with me sharing this dream with you, although it really doesn't require more than a second grade level to analyze, because it's so on the nose. It has a screenwriter. I'm actually kind of embarrassed by how on the nose the dream is. But basically, we were getting ready for the big opening, this giant huge party, and everybody was there. You were there. You know, everybody, all your family was there, Debbie. Like everybody we knew was there, including, you know, people that, you know, are not quite on the friends list, you know, folks from the new, I mean, from the old business that we had, you know, their CEO, our old art director. Everybody was there, and we were getting ready for this big opening, but it wasn't really a scoop shop. It was a performance. So there was a theatrical stage, and we were the ice cream makers, myself, and my two assistants, like a big magic show. We're ready to go on to perform, to make this ice cream for everybody that we'd ever known. And right before we went on, of course, I turned to somebody up on stage, and I realized that I had forgotten to order the milk and the cream. And we couldn't make the ice cream. And so I was like panicked and telling them to run to the grocery store to buy like pints of milk and cream when we needed, you know, hundreds of gallons. So very typical kind of terrifying dream that, you know, that I had the other night. Well, I'm not an analyst, but I'll just say you don't have to be Freud. Yeah. But it means. Yeah. I think that the thing is, it's like, it's all the things that we realize we have to remember to do. Did we order the cups? We've got to find the spoons. Oh my god, did we remember to order aprons? And all of these things take, you know, two weeks or four weeks to arrive. And we're like, oh my god, if we're opening in six weeks and we didn't order that or we didn't order that. And so we'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll remember, oh my god, wait, I have to find a place to buy the milk and the cream from. So those dreams are even there. Yeah, they're based in reality. They're terrifying as, but they're helping, I think, process the things that we have to get onto the memory list. Right. And also just, you know, being on display, right? Yeah. Watching. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've begun construction and this is not your first rodeo. Have there been any challenges? Oh, well, it wouldn't be construction without challenges. Yeah, yeah, they've been some, but I think, I think the thing that's so fascinating with construction is that until it starts, until construction starts, everything that you're doing is all just ideas, plans, dreams, when anything and everything is possible. And I, you know, before we sat down today, I just, I went back to listen to the end of the last episode, just to sort of place myself as where we were a few weeks ago, maybe five or six weeks ago when we recorded the last one. And I can hear in our voices and in the things that we spoke about in our tone, that feeling is that great open-ended, wide open wide world feeling where everything was still possible. And it's just when you're also in complete control of everything at that moment, you know, because it's all just ideas on paper, right? It's all the dreams and the thinking about what you want the place to look like, what you want to feel like, what you want the ice cream to taste like. All of it is under your complete control because it's just things on paper. But once construction starts, reality sets in. And, you know, that's neither good nor bad, or maybe it's both good and bad. I mean, the bad, the good being, you know, you get to see things start to take shape. I mean, that's the ultimate good. You get to see your dreams start to form into reality, which is so exciting. The bad or the negative is that you have to leave some things behind as things get locked in. I mean, you can't do everything. You can't build the Taj Mahal. And so budgets are no longer pieces of paper or ideas, but there are tough decisions that you have to make every day and every single day. Can you tell me some things that you've had to alter or change in this process? Oh, there's so many examples, almost, almost daily. You know, the ribbing structure that we love, we hadn't thought of last time we spoke. It wasn't in the budget. And what I mean by ribbing structures is wood planks that stretch up the back wall behind the counter and across the ceiling over the dipping cabinets and the ice cream. It's a beautiful architectural feature that will help define the space and hide some of the pipes and whatnot and make it feel less industrial, much warmer. But we had to find the money to make that happen. And so we found that one trick is to lease some of the equipment, which frees up money now. So you pay later once we open. And you know, there's a bunch of those types of decisions that we had to make. We also have this amazing idea for a giant wall mural. We have a massive wall in the party space, 40 foot long wall. And we were going to put up a 70s photo mural wallpaper, you know, the kind with trees and lakes and whatnot. So we were really into that. And you know, we still want to do it eventually. But we will. We will. Yeah, it's one of those things that will have to, you know, wait, maybe until we start to generate revenue. Yeah, little decisions like that every day. Are you involved in the day-to-day process and how closely are you working with the contractor? Well, we're there a lot. I mean, not every day that might drive Greg crazy. Yeah, Greg. I mean, honestly though, I don't even know what we would do without Greg. Greg just, you know, I featured Greg on the Instagram a couple times now because he's amazing. He built out, I think it was like 10 or 12 of our shops. All the ones in Brooklyn and Manhattan and Queens. Yeah, he, I mean, it's just not a typical relationship with Greg. It's more of a collaboration. Yeah, I mean, we would do anything for Greg, honestly. You know, he believed in us when we were at Amphol Hills. I mean, you know, so much, so much so that he became an investor in the company. I mean, it's difficult for me to talk about and even to remember, but of course, that means that he lost a lot of money, like so many others during the bankruptcy. I know we spoke about this in one of the early episodes, but you know, he also had a lot of unpaid bills at the end too for jobs that he'd done for us that we couldn't pay him because we were entering bankruptcy. And, you know, and yet, when I called him up, after all that had gone down in 2020 and all the money that we've lost him, to ask him if he would come back and come work with us and collaborate with us on this project, he said, "Yes." He said, "Yes." He was the one critical piece to doing this right. And he said, "Yes." He was the only one. And we're in it together and he's just doing an amazing job. I mean, his attention to detail, he cares about what he's doing. You know, he's not putting up a wall. He really cares about the whole picture, how it's built, how customers are going to respond to it, how to hold up over time. He just cares. And clearly, he believes in second chances. is giving us a second chance and you know he's gonna be a part of the social family for as long as we have the social because you know we're committed to him now to the to the ends of the earth for his role and helping us with this. Absolutely. That's a great story. I do recall you saying you thought it was a 12 week job six weeks ago are you halfway done? Oh, that would be a construction miracle. Yeah, yeah it would be. I mean I hope so. I think so. I don't know. Maybe I mean letting go is clearly, I mean that's a thing that you therapist talk about right? Like you know let it go and and and trying not to control everything right? Well I mean I think again I was bitching about it just a few minutes ago. One of the great things that we have to practice is letting go of all these things that we don't have control over right? And it's not even really so much about Greg and and whether or not he's building fast enough. He's doing everything he can. It's really about a lead time on materials. I mean I can't hurry up the delivery of a walk in freezer. I mean that's specifically one thing that we can't open with without a freezer to put the ice cream in to store the ice cream in. And the lead time on freezers anywhere in New York and throughout much of the country is 12 to 16 weeks. So we're looking at you know September, August. I mean we can't open then. We have to open in the summertime. And so it's just been terrifying just trying to find a walk in box. I mean that's not what I want to be thinking about right now. But we did find one. Finally found a company that can make them in the next two to three weeks. But they're in California. So we've got a ship you know two giant walk in boxes across the country on a flatbed truck which of course you know adds to the cost exponentially. But those are the kind of things we don't have you know and it's all because of the pandemic. I mean these are lingering effects of COVID because of a year of these businesses and construction in all different industries being shut down and everybody's back up and working again which is wonderful and exciting. But it means that there is a crush on certain things lights being out of stock, cabinetry, the finishes. I mean we've had to. Yeah I mean we've had to pivot a lot. And just figuring out well okay this light is out of stock. What are we going to do? You know we wanted an orange light that had you know a dome shape that was made out of fabric and you know it's just like okay next what are we going to do? You know I mean we're doing a lot of this design work ourselves this time around too. So we spent a lot of time on these websites searching for you know for mica colors. Oh my god. So like yeah for mica counter that's something that's so exciting because you know the countertops in our old shops were always like a quartz or you know a stone marble kind of thing right. Which was nice but we really wanted to go for mica which is like such a key 70s thing. And so you know but the biggest challenge is trying to find the right color that could go with the logo and with the wood facing of the cabinets and we. And again we're just you know pivoting all the time because you know there's a color that's out of stock there's another color and we're trying to do the booths you know and have the booths nut clash with the black boards and the black boards nut clash with the countertop. And again it's just the two of us kind of you know working on the design in Greg. Yeah in Greg. But the color it's called water spout I just love that. So water spout it's like the perfect combination of blue and green and it just went combined with the wood facing has such a nostalgic 70s film. It's just beautiful. So alongside construction what else are you working on? Huh well we got our phone number for the social. 718. Ooh 718 old school and fitting. Exactly 718 304 5387 which I like because it has a nice ring to it. Yeah don't call it yeah there's nobody will answer. Well I have to set up the voicemails. Yeah that's true. Yeah I've been set it up. And we also have a landing page for our website which is also exciting the socialbroughlin.com. The social Brooklyn the socialbroughlin.com. That has a ring to it. Anyway the folks at bento box are helping us build that which is awesome and I'm super excited about it and we oh I ordered t-shirts which I am incredibly excited about those t-shirts. Yeah they're ring t's. Look it up. They're very cool. And I think probably the most exciting part for us. I mean I don't know maybe I'll just speak for for myself. I think the most exciting part is that we are our amazing artists of Manza Kavanaugh created the most beautiful, beautiful Brooklyn Street scene with characters for our pint containers that for now will be sold only in house perhaps for shipping at some point in your future. The idea was always to like try to create a Sesame Street kind of scene you know with the brown stones and characters on fire escapes and so it's populated with people from you know our family and friends and they wrap around this container and it just is so vibrant and full of energy and color and it just it's a work of art itself on a pint container by screen. It's so beautiful. Well we always have to talk about ice cream at some point right? So Brian I see an Instagram new flavors you're creating what's the process like for you? Well I mean I wish I had I wish I had more time to make ice cream again that's funny I mean it's like I don't know a month ago even two months ago I was making ice cream every day because there wasn't really anything else to do yet it was still so early and all these other decisions about for my get colors were like way off in the distance and so now I'm not getting to do it as often but it's still it's still really important and and what's really great is now with the COVID sort of starting to lift and you know we're vaccinated and our friends are all vaccinated and so people are starting to come over I don't actually know what you haven't come over yet but you know your vaccinated so you you guys need to get over to to try some of this ice cream but it allows us to have friends over they get to sample the ice cream we make ice cream and and that was like even a decade ago before we started that that other ice cream shop we would make ice cream and people would come over and we would test it with them and they would give feedback and and so we'd been missing that piece and so that's that's back with a force and like the other night I was working on a flavor of a croissant infused ice cream so all the kind of flaky crusty bread and butter flavors that are in a croissant infused into the ice cream itself so the ice cream is smooth and and and delicious but tastes like that croissant and then in that we did two different flavors we won we swirled ribbons of Nutella and the other we swirled ribbons of raspberry jam so for me like in a raspberry jam I'm not even sure it even rates right for me it was all about the Nutella because it's just chocolate chocolate but what was fascinating is you know we shared it with everybody at dinner and Jackie and the kids and and our friends and I knew even did a post I think online and people responded similarly but the raspberry jam you know was just it just sung because with with the Nutella even though it's so good it just tastes like Nutella ice cream yeah it takes over Nutella takes over a flavor which you know I mean everyone loves Nutella so it's a crowd pleaser it is but you know when you actually start to do the tastings yeah I think that's the thing is that in on paper you're like oh wait you know because when I went to I actually went to the croissant store I went to the bakery and they had three croissants they had a plain croissant they had a Nutella croissant and they had a raspberry croissant I was like oh perfect that's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna try to represent the Nutella croissant that raspberry but in reality when you go and try the Nutella ice cream and the croissant ice cream with the Nutella all it does is it tastes like Nutella but the raspberry one just the perfect balance of that buttery flaky crust with the raspberry jam so that's that's fun and honestly probably doesn't happen without the people sort of helping and participating well I'll be over later to give it a try okay good how about a donut update what's happening in that department how do you plan on integrating them into the socials identity as an ice cream shop yeah I mean that's a good question I mean you know it's definitely something we we think a lot about because we don't want it to seem like we're doing too many things you know it's ultimately it's an ice cream shop right so it's a nice cream shop with donut it's not a donut and shop with ice cream. And so for us what that means is limiting the number of donuts, you know, we're not dunking donuts, we're not gonna have 30 different kinds of donuts. We're gonna have a few four or five flavors of donuts, warm, delicious, cake donuts that are just mastered and perfect, but just keep the menu relatively simple and then pair them more importantly, pair them with ice cream. So, you know, the key to in terms of integrating it is just having the signature donut Sunday that will feature, you know, we used to have a signature brownie Sunday and I knew we'd go eat butter cake Sunday and we'll offer those to folks if they want because we'll have all those things, but to have this sort of featured warm fresh freshly made donut with ice cream over it and hot fudge and with cream and all that. And you know, I mean you did perfect the chocolate donut. Yeah, I've got it. I've got to shout out this insanely chocolate, insane chocolate donut because we did taste testing and when you close your eyes and you taste various other types of chocolate donuts, you actually, it doesn't taste like chocolate. So it's an interesting thing. It's hard to get the flavor of chocolate into a cake donut, it really is. I mean they look beautiful, the texture is so beautiful. And I think you think that it tastes like chocolate because you're looking at it. But if you're doing a blind take, try it. I mean I swear I'm not making this up. Like if you actually go to like, you know, two places and try these, you know, chocolate donuts and then try, I mean they just don't. That's because if you do, even if you look up recipes online, you know, there'll be a quarter of a cup of cocoa powder and a whole recipe for a chocolate donut and that's not going to get you a lot of flavor. So, you know, we really work to try to up the the chocolatey flavor in that donut. So I'm excited about that. Yeah. And then, you know, in terms of going with donuts too. Yeah. I'm excited about leaning heavier into the coffee component of, you know, because obviously you want a good cup of coffee with your donut. So we haven't chosen a coffee company to work with. I'm excited that we're getting actually get back our first espresso machine that was gifted to us by a friend of ours who services espresso machines. In fact, I think we traded the machine for a couple of birthday parties for his kids, which was great. So we're getting that back because he's of course, you know, servicing it and making it, you know, shiny and new. And then we have to choose a good coffee company. So if anyone knows of one, please DM me or has any ideas, I'm happy to entertain because I'm doing that right now. Wow. That all sounds amazing. Last time we touched on the culture of the shop and your vision, how is that getting fleshed out? I mean, it's great. You know, there's so many challenges and as we sort of compare it to what happened with the other business, you know, with ample hills. I mean, when we did that, we really had, you know, what I would call a go with the flow vibe and we were very relaxed and, you know, took a day by day. And we thought that that was the sort of the best and most open way of communicating and establishing a culture and establishing a free to be you and me vibe and a feel that kind of go with the flow. But ultimately that, it seems strange and counterintuitive, but that go with the flow vibe when stretched as far as we sort of stretched it ends up in a lot of miscommunication confusion, confusion, lack of expectations, clear expectations, clear roles, clear defined roles. And so what happens is you have people doing things that they don't think they should be doing, people doing more than they wanted to do, people feeling put upon, just a lot of strange things that develop when what you think you're doing is allowing for the most possible freedom. And so it's a it is strange and counterintuitive, but I think after having done it and spent all that time, we now have over 10 years developed. I mean also, you know, we didn't have a clearly defined and written vision. I've been working on this vision, you know, with Brian, you know, from the minute we decided that we were going to open the social. And what, you know, that path is going to look like towards, you know, what is what is the vision for the social five years from now? What do we hope to have achieved? And really, you know, having that written down and then having other steps that, you know, are involved in that, like an employee handbook and, you know, communication cadence and all that stuff, all of that, you know, and you would think that it would crimp people's style, but it really doesn't. It gives guardrails to their, their, their way that they're doing their work and their expectations. And they feel like they've been invited in along for a ride that they understand and that they can share in that vision if you share the vision with them. But if you don't, then everybody makes up their own vision along the way. And then you're never on the same page. And, and that's, you know, what we learned. Yeah. Right. So everyone's on the same ride instead of right. Right. Yeah. Right. Exactly. I know we're winding down here before we go, can each of you tell me one thing that you're both currently excited about? Okay. Well, mine makes sound silly, but I'm so excited about it. So in the 1970s, one of my favorite toys were weebles. Do you remember does anyone remember weebles? Yes. I'm not gonna say. A little older, but I do anyway. Okay. Okay. So weebles had a saying or a, what do you call it? A song attached a jingle, right? If you will on their, on their commercial weebles, wobble, but they don't fall down. Anyway, stuck in my head. I also feel, you know, there's some kind of kin to the weeble in us right now, but also they make me happy. I look at a weeble and they just make me happy. Oh, we're weebles. We're wobbling, but we're not, I get it. I don't like that. We're wobbling, but we're not pulling down. Could that be the, the socials tag? Yes. Weebles well. Yeah. I know. So I'm very excited about the weebles. So she's been buying a lot of weebles on eBay. And weebles homes. And weebles homes. Yeah. My favorite is, it's actually an idea Jackie had. I don't know if it folks remember, but at, at Ampholism, we used to have, we had these tables and we would have collages embedded in them from the very beginning. A decade ago, we started and was always in every shot. Old advertising images from ice cream embedded in collages. And this time we wanted to do something embedded in the tables, but we didn't want to obviously do what we've done before. And keeping with the concept of the social and the idea of people coming together and spending time together, each of the tables along the five booths that we have are going to be a different 1970s game board. And so what we've done is we found these old games. Welcome back, Carter. Star Wars. That's the one I'm most excited about where they have to escape from the trash compactor. But those games will actually be embedded in the tables. And then we'll have second copies of the games with pieces so people can actually get them from the counter and play the games while they're eating the ice cream on the table top. So I don't that's the thing I'm most excited while they're both great. Looking forward to getting an update soon. Yes, definitely. We're just a few weeks away. Well, maybe a month a month and a half away, I hope. But we're hoping to open in mid July. So we'll see. But we will we'll be in touch soon. And thank you again, Debs. All right. Thanks, Debs. Bye. Bye.