S2E29:Mentoring in Ministry with Jenn Graffius pt. 2

You are listening to a called collective podcast, where we seek to equip the next generation of ministry leaders. The called collective produces multiple podcasts, which you can find in the description below. To learn more about the called collective, visit our website at thecalledcollective.org or check us out on Instagram at the called collective. Good days. Welcome to the good days podcast with Eddie and Charlie. And once again, Charlie is still on the road, but we have a special guest with us. And her name is Dr. Jen Grafias and she works at a zoo specific. And if you did not get to hear part one of our conversation about mentoring, please go back to last week's session on part one and then come back and listen to part two. And this whole topic of mentoring, Jen, is such a vast topic. And it's something we talk about a lot in the church. But before we dive back into the subject of mentoring, tell our listening audience, what are some ministry experiences you have had in terms of like in grad school, post grad school, some of the jobs you've had in the church, outside the church, that sort of thing? Sure. Yeah. I didn't even realize that I was headed toward ministry. I was one of those people who kind of meandered my way into the formal ministry roles. So I served a lot in my church when I was in undergrad. And my pastor at the time just kept saying, Jen, what about seminary? Have you thought about seminary? And at the point I was leading our high school ministry, while I was teaching, I was teaching eighth grade math and science in a California public school. Oh, wow. And volunteering. Yeah. And I was volunteering as a youth pastor at my church. And then I just kind of came to the point where I was like, okay, I'm going to go to seminary. Wow. Because you're like, I love loving this. Yeah. This kind of part time or even a bivocational, but you're doing it for free. You're volunteering as a youth pastor at your church, like, I love this. That was that was my love. And I realized I cared less and less about the actual like state standards for teaching science, especially. And I was like, Oh, I don't want to learn more about ministry. Yeah. And so that was I went to seminary. I went to Princeton seminary. And while I was at Princeton, I worked in the university chapel at Princeton University. And that's fun. It was it was actually a transformative experience for me because the dean of the chapel, same as Dr. Tom Brighton-Ball, I preached one day and he said to me, because I really had every intention of just returning back to teaching and then continuing to volunteer at my church. Oh, wow. But being a well educated layperson, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. In other words, I'm going to be a better small group leader. I'm going to be a better volunteer youth pastor. Exactly. We're like a layperson in my church to kind of lean into that more and got since you own a different trajectory. Yeah. I will not ever forget Dean Brighton-Ball said to me, Jen, I think you're selling yourself a little short. I think you need to do some vocational exploration, which is really funny to me because I say that sometimes to people. That's the exact same quote. Yes. Do some vocational exploration and he really encouraged me to think about it. And so he actually let me run the chapel at Princeton University for a whole summer. Really? That's fun. That's great. Yeah. He went on sabbatical and I was like kind of the point person. Amazing experience. It was awesome. Yeah. It really kind of set me up for I knew that full-time ministry was really where I was headed. So I became a youth pastor in Glendora, California at Glen Kirk Church and was there for about five years and then from there I was a chaplain to a school in LA for a year. And that was really random and I realized I'm not from LA, I'm from the suburbs. So a chaplain at a Christian high school? It was a Christian, it was like a church in school. They had a preschool through 12th grade and it was wild and LA is just a very different culture. Yeah. Totally different culture. Yeah. And I wasn't prepared for that, so I only see there a year. But then an opportunity to be the director of Chapel at Fuller Seminary opened up and I went there and was at Fuller for five years and loved it being there. That was a great experience. And then I— That was a chaplain at Fuller, I mean you're probably engaging not just with students though you're in air engaging with the staff and the faculty as well. Yeah. So what was that like? That's a wide audience and you can't please everybody it seems like. So how did that go? It was probably one of the more intimidating spaces I've ever served. I actually cried in my first sermon at Fuller. I was so moved. It was—it caught me so off guard I was reading, is it Psalm 84 where it talks about when you walk through the valley of tears, it becomes streams of something and then you go from strength to strength until you see the Supreme God in Zion. And there was just something about it. I was so moved by the text and I started to cry and I just like couldn't hold it together so I had to pause in my first sermon. I was dying with like Richard Mao is there and you know like all of these— These people that you've read. You're right. You've grown all these things. Oh my gosh. You've read them and now they're sitting there listening to you deliver the sermon. Yes. Oh my goodness. Clay Schmidt was one of the preaching faculty at the time and I remember after he came up to me and he said I was really pleased with the way that you didn't apologize when you teared up. He said you just paused and I was like did I do that? I mean realize it, I'm just trying to recover. I know. I'm just like— It wasn't a technique at all. It was a fuller but yeah there were just so many you know all of our big worship events I was in charge of and I tell people there were moments where I would stand behind Dr. Mao and whisper to him don't sit down there's not a chair behind you anymore. You know like those kinds of details and worship services so just visions of you know taking the seat from Richard Mao and watching him fall or something like that was terrifying. Of course you're inviting all these different people to come and speak then for the chapel and probably some what we would consider to be Christian celebrities in our world, the evangelical world. Yeah. Like NT Wright was there that was pretty funny there's like a line around the corner of grown men wanting to fall on the ground. What is autograph? It was so bizarre and you know I like I jokingly would say my job is just to tell all these theologians where to go but I'm like no I mean like actually literally where to go. Not yet. No. So but I just remember like Walter Brugum in coming through and just really being impressed by certain people who have these big names and then realizing just how kind they are and he sent an email to all of our staff after he was there and just thanked us for all of the help. Yes. I just think you know as you grow in ministry you realize like those thank yous are enormously meaningful to people who are doing a lot of the work. It's great. Yeah. And then from Fuller did you go to Zousa? I did. Okay. Great. Yeah. Then my job just keeps changing. Okay so on this topic of mentoring we can use this term one of your mentors at Princeton was probably kind of Dean is that right? I wasn't I mean she was one of my influencers. It was yes. Okay. So we're going to dive into this a little bit here. So last episode you explain three different types of mentors okay. Review for our audience these three types of mentors and let's dive into that in terms of how they play out in the church for pastors to realize that that they don't necessarily have to be that intentional mentor on a day-to-day or week-by-week or monthly basis that there's other roles of mentoring during different seasons and people's lives. So let's review those three types of mentors. Yeah. There's the intensive which is the more present regular long-term someone says hey will you mentor me? Yes. And that's a very intentional intensive meeting with them on a regular basis. Yes. Weekly by weekly monthly something like that. Right. Right. That's your intensive. Then you have your occasional which that may be if even if somebody has like a semester where they have to do mentor ministry or something like that and they ask you to be their mentor. But there's like a very clear defined beginning and end. Yeah. Okay. That's your occasional. Right. Or just every once in a while when it's needed. Right. Because I have former students here in ministry now and they say they'll text me hey dockshigs you available for one of the coaching calls. Right. You know? Right. Because I need one right now. Desperately. Yeah. Yeah. So they're going through maybe a crisis or going through something that they don't understand or they're in need of some some wise counsel. Yeah. And they say hey they call you up or they text you and say do you have time for a phone call. Right. Okay. Yeah. Third kind is? Well Stanley and Clinton would say you're passive. Okay. But you've renamed it to influencer. Yes, because I think each of these categories are important in their own right. It isn't like kind of an hierarchy of importance. It's just more of like, I don't even know if a hierarchy is the right word, but there's different levels of engagement on the mentors part. And so on the passive or influencer, you may not ever know that person, or you may have met them, but they're not deeply involved in your life. Maybe you've met them once or twice. And I think that, though, can't be underestimated, particularly with the rise of the technology that we have, that influencer can be really powerful, a powerful voice in people's lives. Absolutely. As an example, I think, an influencer probably on me would be someone like Frances Chan. Right. I've heard him speak. I've watched a lot of his sermons on YouTube. I've listened to some podcasts. I've read a lot of his books. I love what he's doing with some of the house church stuff. And I love that aspect. So in a sense, I've never met Frances Chan. Right. We've never had a face-to-face conversation. Right. I've never text him. He said, "Hey, Frances. It's Eddie. How's it going?" Right. You know, that's never happened. I don't have his phone number. He doesn't have mine. Right. He has no idea who I am. And yet he has influenced my life and influenced my ministry to some degree. Right. That would be an influencer. Right. Okay. I actually almost ran him over once. I didn't really. Yeah. He was speaking at a conference and he was walking out. Of course. And I was pulling in. And I didn't see him. And I was like, "I almost ran over Frances Chan." I was in his career early. So watch where you're driving. You know. You never know. What? That's a celebrity you might kill. Oh, dear Lord. Yeah. Yes, it's something like that. I think that's a great example. Yeah. I mean, I've said to you, I think Taylor Swift is a great example of that influencer in our society. Our culture. Yeah. Yeah. We see a lot of people really resonating with what she is putting out into the world. You know, the lyrics to her songs. The experiences she shares, and there's this very intense feeling. Like, if you talk to-- And following. Yeah. Intense following. Intense. I mean, we just had Taylor Swift in LA. And when you talk to people who were going to the concert, it was like they were going to see an old friend. Yes. You know. And so the impact she's having is really significant. But most of those people have never met her. And you know, but her voice has carried in their lives. Yeah. And this kind of really interesting because they resonate with her lyrics during a season of life that might have been-- that they can relate to with Taylor, right? And so in other words, another breakup. Right. Another relationship. They were basically-- Boys are terrible. So. But then they-- this is the crazy thing. They think they know Taylor Swift. Yes. Because of-- you know, I've followed her on Instagram and I've-- I've listened to all of her songs. I've got all of her albums. And I've read all of her lyrics. Therefore, I feel like I know her. They've never met. She has no idea they exist. Right. But she's a major influencer in her life. Right. And I think that that's really important for us to remember in ministry because-- I mean, no matter how big your following is, when you have the platform, you are in some ways influencing other people. Your voice is carrying. Yeah. And what-- I mean, we were even talking about just the microphone. You know, the microphone is a really powerful tool that we have to pour into people. And we don't even know the impact that we're having a lot of the time. You're exactly right. Wow. That's so good. I think we should actually-- every time we get up to speak, okay, we're talking about whether it's a youth pastor at a youth group of five, okay? Whether it's a lead pastor at a church at 20,000. I think we should feel that weight of responsibility, that God has entrusted to us to deliver the Word of God. Yeah. And to make it applicable to people's lives. Right. And we may be sitting there as we speak our little sermon or devotional before a youth group of 30-- 35 students, let's say. Right. And never realize how that talk may really influence or impact their life. Yeah. And yet the Holy Spirit uses it for transformation. Right. Back to this transformational mentoring. Right. And of course, you can't mentor, personal mentor, all 35 of these students. You might be mentoring a few of them. Right. In a very intentional way. But you're doing this as other type of mentoring, what do you call it again? Influence there. Being an influencer in their life. And that's more from a distance. It's more than a distance. It's closer than a distance, I should say. Right. But you may not be weak meeting weakly with them. Right. And yet that's a powerful voice in their life. Right. Right. And we should make light of that. Not at all. But I think it's even, we get so used to that practice of standing up in front of people. And I know there's days-- That's speaking. Yeah. Some days we don't even feel like being there. But if we can remember, it is the holy space that's there. That's good. When we are delivering these words, I think it could be really encouraging too. In those moments where we feel a little bit like the grind of ministry is getting exhausted. And we're not seeing the fruit of everything we're doing. I think the reality is, though, that those words, like the scripture says, don't return void. And so I think a lot about pastors and that the heaviness of the microphone, that's a lot of the work we do. And it's just, if it's any encouragement to us, it's just remembering that it isn't what we're doing isn't just like talking off of the top of our heads and everything. But it really can be very powerful in people's lives. Yes. And I think we have a lot of youth pastors that listen to our podcast. So I think we cannot please youth pastor out there know that you are a significant influence in the lives of these students and students need mentors. Yes. I mean, it's such a tumultuous time for teenagers and our culture seems to be crazy right now. And so they're thinking about a lot of deep subjects, even though they may not talk about those deep subjects. They're thinking about these deep subjects and they're trying to figure out their identity. They're trying to figure out their sexual orientation. Yeah. They're trying to figure out if they're going to follow Jesus or not. They're trying to figure out as a transition from eighth grade to ninth grade. Which group am I going to follow and be a part of? There's so much going on in their lives. And yet that youth pastor is such a significant influencer and mentor in the lives of these students. We want to emphasize that. And we want to know you all are on the front lines of ministry. And we want to say thank you for doing that. You're in the trenches with these students. So thank you for doing that. And just a word of encouragement. When I was in college, I was on a ministry team. And I went to a camp. I had a group of students I've never met before that were in my cabin. And I went about that week and did the best I can to be Jesus to these kids, right? For a week and just pour my life into them. And I didn't hear from any of them. Right. Ever again, right? And then 30, 33 years later, one of those kids tracks me down through Facebook. Oh my gosh. And I got a Facebook instant message from this kid and said, "Hey, are you the eddy shiggly, you know, and you're on ministry teams and in Wesleyan and you went to this camp and you are my camp counselor?" Wow. I just want to let you know that you made a profound difference in my life that week. Wow. And I'm a follower of Christ today because the influence you had in my life in that one week. Yeah. Never talked to that kid again. Wow. Right. They were 14, 33 years later. Fast forward that. What, 24 or 34, 44, I'm counting on my hands, 47. They're now 47 years old. Wow. And they finally track me down. Yeah. And to say thank you. Yeah. Like we cannot, we just can't realize the impact we might have through one devotional. Yes. Or one talk with a kid off to the side after a softball game. Right. Or we go visit this kid that's in our youth group and we go to their lunch or something. And we go to their high school or go to their middle school and we sit with a group of middle school students. And how much that can really mean to them that you came to my school. Yes. And you sat with my friends and you were like a normal person. Right. And you talked to us about whatever, about life. I think that's the crazy part about youth ministry is that we don't, like when you're in the trenches of youth ministry, you're not seeing the, the like. Maybe immediate effect of it. Yes. Yeah. But I mean, like a lot of my kids are like in their firties now. Right. That I was youth pastor too. And it's now that I'm seeing those moments, like how much those moments mattered back. You know, 20, like what was it? 2005 to 2010. It's like youth ministry is really about, like the payoff is in hindsight, you know. It is so true. But it's hard. The day to day. The daily grind. It's so difficult. Yeah. Yeah. So hang in there. I agree. Good word. Yeah. All right. So quickly, how can these three things, how can we use these three types of mentoring in the church? Break that. Now let's discuss that a little bit and what that might look like. Yeah. I think, well, I think what's really helpful in having these different categories is knowing that you can't be everything to everybody. And I think that there are certain people that God puts in our path to really have that intensive relationship with. But like you were saying, you can't have an intensive relationship with a lot of people. There's just not. With all 35 kids in your group. It's not possible. Yeah. So it's a question then of who is God bringing into your path? And I think we have to be really conscious of not just going for the people that we like. It is. I wrote about. It's easy. We have similar interests. Yeah. I like them a personality click. Yes. When I talked about this in my dissertation and I spent some time thinking about the call of David when Samuel goes to anoint David and that lineup of all of the brothers and how he goes through each one and is like, is it this one? Because he looks like he could be a king. Is it this one? He looks like he could be a king. He goes through all of the brothers and none of them are selected. And he's like, is this it? Yeah. He's thinking like, did God send me to the wrong place? The wrong house. And they're like, Oh, there's one more. But he's in the fields taking care of the sheep. He's all sunburned and he's the baby. And he's not going to mount anything. Exactly. And then he stands in front of Samuel and God's like, that's the one. And annoying him king. Yes. And so I think like I talk about it as like seeing with your heart, like trusting the Lord to bring the right people into your path and really paying attention to the need that that is in front of you and is God calling you to meet that need in that person's life. Yes. But you can't be that for everybody. Yeah. And so it's just really, it is a spiritual process, I think, of like who God brings in your path. And leaning into that, be really in tune with the Holy Spirit of who is God bringing into your path for this season. Yeah. Yeah. So and so then you have the occasional and I think these are really good times. And I think we have to be really clear when they are occasional, because sometimes especially like in the university setting, you can agree to be the mentor for like 20 people. You know, and it's like, so I often try to really pray over while we're doing. Oh my gosh. You're like, I have no time in my calendar. So yeah. And Samuel represents some love. He's mentoring somebody. Right. I know. And you're like, I can't teach my class because I need a busy mentoring. Yeah. That doesn't go over very well with the deep. No. So I think like framing it like, you know, I would love to meet with you. And I have three times that they can meet with you. Or you know, like just having some clarity there. And trying to meet the needs of people, but then also like letting them know what you are able to do. Yeah. Because we all are bound by our commitments that we have, our responsibilities we have, the commitments to other relationships that we have in our lives, spouse, children, other people are mentoring. Like it's so we can't mentor everybody in that intensive way. So it's okay to be an occasional mentor. Yes. Like one of the things we want to say to pastors today, it's okay to be an occasional mentor. Yes. And I think that might be helpful in those really needy situations too, where, you know, there's the person who wants to meet with you all the time. And just saying, I have this amount of time. And I mean, even at APU when I was getting really busy, I cut my mentoring sessions down from 40 or from an hour to 45 minutes. Yes. Right. And I mean, I really encouraged my team to do the same because I think like if you're giving a whole hour, then like resetting before you go to the next thing is really tough. And so I'll tell the students that I meet with, I can meet with you for 45 minutes. And I'm very a friend about it. And I think that just helps the more clear you can be with people. And right up front too. Yeah. Okay. I have a 30 minute window here. Yeah. Does that work for you? Right. And they know that you've got something before and something after and they just can't linger. Yeah. And consume your entire day. I have a 30 minute window or I have a 45 minute window or how about I have an hour window and we can do lunch. Right. And you're setting it at the time frame. Yeah. That fits. And even, I mean, at the end of my 45 minutes, what is next is actually downtime to reset. Yes. And sometimes people see that as like nothing. And it's like, no, that's significant too is like this creating space for people that I can be my best self when I'm with them. So I think it's okay to see yourself. So how we use this in the church is really thinking about what can you offer? You know, what are you being called to offer in those moments? And I think in all cases, being really clear with people that you are mentoring, what you're willing to offer is really important in the process too. It's great. Guys, move the third. How can we be an influencer in the church setting? What does that look like? I actually think COVID has pushed us to explore this more and more. Right. Because we couldn't be with our people. Yeah. Yeah. And so just I think that my biggest hesitation is that it can't be 100%. We can't be 100% influencer all the time because it is less of a relational like two way situation. It's much more like your sort of the sage on the stage. And so I think just being conscious of how much of that is in our lives versus like actual relationships is really important. And then also just deeply valuing the way that our voice is being used in the world is like the positive side of that that we do have an opportunity to extend the reach of how we're mentoring people and using that in a way that's glorifying to God and really honoring to people is important. That's good. Yeah. I think we also as Christians, especially as pastors, because we are sending example, I think one of the challenging verses for me is 1 Corinthians chapter 11 verse 1 where Paul says, "Follow my examples, I follow the example of Christ." Yeah. Another translation says, "Imitate me as I imitate Jesus." Yeah. Okay. And I think that's a challenge for all pastors. I think pastors kind of fit into that Paul window, Pauling window, in a sense. And so as a pastor and as we use social media, if you're on any kind of social media context, Instagram, Twitter, I'm sorry, X Facebook, whatever that social media platform is, I think we have to be careful what we do with social media. What do we post? Yes. Okay. What are we posting on X or Facebook or Instagram? And because we are influencers and people's lives. And you might like, "Oh, I have two followers." Well, you're influencing those two people. Absolutely. Or you may have 2,000 followers. Or you might have 20,000 followers. Okay. No, I don't. I only have 4,000 on Facebook, but who's counting? Anyway, I've been tweeted forever. Sorry. What are you going to say? I can't say tweet. Have an X? Have an X, I don't know. Anyway. So, but I think we need to be careful what we do post. Yeah. Because I think sometimes, especially a Twitter X is kind of can be very vitriol, like very a lot of angst. People are just throwing out their anger and just, especially like the political environment and things of that nature. You know, what I try to do is when I do post, because I don't post very often, is can I be hopeful? Yeah. Can I be joyful? Can I imitate Christ through this post, through this moment? And can I be Jesus to people through this? So I want to be uplifting, encouraging, hopeful, and positive, and Christianly. Yeah. And not get into the angst of social media. Right. And so I think as pastors, we have to be careful in that environment. And that's just a word. I'm not I'm not thinking about anyone in particular whether you do it well or not do that well. I think that's just what I want to throw out there as a challenge to our listeners. And I think that that influencer side of us really should emerge out of out of the other communities that we have in actual connection with people. I think the more connected we are to the sense of like to real people. Yeah. Yeah. The more connected to real people. And since the more careful we are of the impact that our words have with people we know and those we don't know. And I think that is really sometimes that's missing in pastoral ministry because of isolation. You know, there's this sense of like constant removal from the people who really know us. And that's a little scary. And sometimes we don't realize just like I think there's a reason that Jesus sent the disciples out two by two. And I think that we haven't like evolved enough to stop doing that. You know, I think we need people in our lives. We need our, you know, if you have your spouse or significant other, that's important. But then also this sense of similar others which comes out of flourishing ministry study is we need people who are doing similar things. to us who can hold us accountable to understand what we're doing because it's such a weird world sometimes, to be the person that people want to listen to the most. - Yeah, I think if we're, because you have these social media influencers, right? And sometimes I wonder, I think connected to any community whatsoever, because if they are, they would not post that. - Right. - And because someone would have rebuked that, or they would have care-fronted them, or they would have engaged in that and maybe tell them, that's not a good idea. - Right. - So I love this idea that we have to, we are, God has created us to live in community, and not just be this distant influencer. - Totally. - Even though that is a role we play in people's lives from time to time, there's more to mentoring than that role in and of itself. - Right. And I think in the Christian life, if we're gonna talk about like how the influencer role plays out, if we're talking specifically Christian, I don't think it can be removed from community. And I think that's something we really need to pay attention to. - Yeah, that's good. Because if you're posting something, you have to ask the question, your audience is gonna be your church, okay? So how are they reading this? How are they taking this? Your audience might be that 13 year old middle schooler. How are they reading this? Because it's always, we have to think about relationships. These messages in the context of relationship and how is that helping people grow to be more like Jesus? - Right, right. - Yeah, that's good. Jen, thanks so much for this conversational mentoring. - Thank you. - Make sure you listen to part one and part two of our discussion on mentoring. You're the best. - You're the best, Eddie. - Thanks. Boom. - Boom. - We would like to thank the School of Theology Ministry at NNOS University for allowing us to use their podcast studio and their facilities. I also wanna thank the Cald Collective for producing all of our podcast. The Cald Collective seeks to equip the next generation of ministry leaders. To find out more information, visit the CaldCollective.org or check us out on Instagram at the Cald Collective. Once again, thank you for listening to a couple of old guys. Talking about ministry principles. We have over 70 years of ministry experience and we'll see you next week. [BLANK_AUDIO]