S2E28: Mentoring in Ministry with Jenn Graffius

You are listening to a called collective podcast, where we seek to equip the next generation of ministry leaders. The called collective produces multiple podcasts, which you can find in the description below. To learn more about the called collective, visit our website at thecalledcollective.org or check us out on Instagram at the called collective. Good days. Welcome to the Good Days podcast with Eddie and Charlie. And folks, just want to let you know that Charlie is still in France visiting his son and his daughter-in-law and his grandbaby. So he'll be joining us in a couple of weeks. He's super excited about being back as we will start season three here in a couple weeks as school gets started. But we do have a special guest with us, Dr. Jen Grafius. She is the executive director for the Center of Occational Ministry at Azusa Pacific. Super fancy title, Jen. Like, did you create this title or did you inherit this title? No, if I was creating my title, it would be Princess. But since that wasn't available, no, I'm just kidding. No, that is a new title for me. Okay, good. Just to cover the formal leadership of our center. But yeah, love what I get to do. What does this center do? Like, how do you train students from what is this center? What is it about? Yeah, well, this is kind of a cool center because it spans the lifespan of people in ministry. So we start with helping high schoolers discern their calls into ministry and our youth leadership initiative. And then within our school, we have this program called Vocare, which walks alongside our undergrad and grad students as they are discerning their calls into ministry and working on their degrees and getting ready to launch into ministry. And then we also have a pastor's division of our center that works with people who are in ministry helping them stay healthy in ministry and loving what they do and flourishing. So very cool. Yeah, I love that piece. All those pieces are great. Now, for those of you who have kind of followed us and know about the current program, because we mentioned that from time to time, Jen leads basically the current program at Azusa Pacific. So we are kind of contemporaries and we've developed a friendship over the years, which has been fantastic. We've been on lots of different committees together and have traveled around the United States at different conferences. And so that's been fun. But you guys call your current program Vocare, is that right? That's right. Okay, what's Vocare mean? Vocare means to call or to be called and in Latin. And so we thought it would be fun to just-- That is fun. Instead of saying, do you want to be part of our five-year BA to MA program where you can accelerate your degree and also have fun with people who are like, just one word would be helpful. That's awesome. Do you have to explain that to every person that comes in the program? What, so what is Vocare? Right. Well, we try. So we start out with Vocare means to call or to be called. So if you're on that journey, you join us. Come join us. Yep. That's amazing. Yeah. So one of the things that Jen and I get to talk about from time to time is she is a huge Dodgers fan. Huge. Massive. They're going to win the World Series. Like insanely fans of the Dodgers. It goes to a lot of the Dodgers games and her brother gets these great tickets that she gives Jen all the time, which is amazing. And so we would tell us a little bit about the Dodgers. And how many World Series are they won recently? And how many should have they have won recently? Oh my gosh. I can't talk about last season. Still, it was so heartbreaking to me. That's record of baseball and don't win the World Series. I die. I die. Like we should have won all these years past. Like I can't think of a year that we shouldn't have won. But we did win in 2020. And I hate when people tell me that that was the short ear. And that's why we went. Oh, it does account. No, it totally counts. OK, OK, just want to make sure. I mean, and we can't talk about 2017. Our friend in our current program will be mad at me if I talk about the Astros Dodgers situation. I can't handle that either. Tell us, tell us why the Astros beat the Dodgers in 2017. Oh, my good thing are big fat cheaters. Bigger cheaters. I saw them play this year at Dodgers Stadium. I wore my cheaters shirt with the Astros logo. Yes. How many of those players, though, from 2017 are still with Astros? I think there's three, but any time a former 2017 Astro comes to Dodgers Stadium. On a different team. On a different team. I mean, like-- Give me an example. Carlos Correa on the twins. So Carlos Correa for the twins. When the twins come to the Dodgers Stadium, what do the Dodgers fans do when Carlos Correa comes up to bat? They absolutely boo them to the point that they cannot-- most of the time they strike out. It is brutal. There's like 50,000 people chanting cheater, which I may or may not have participated in at some point. But you have. Oh, my gosh. There's no forgiveness for the Astros. It's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad. I win it again. I mean, come on. I just can't believe they won it legitimately. Yeah. They must have cheated. They must have. So some of you may or may not know. I'm a sister at Red's fan, and we haven't had a whole lot to cheer about recently. However, this season's been kind of fun. They're above 500, really. Fun for you. They're above 500. They've got a bunch of rookies on their line up. They're doing well. And I think they actually have a winning record against the Dodgers this year. I think they do. Yeah. And every time they play, I want to text you. And then I'm like, I'm not going to talk and eat trash. So the weekend, Esther and I, and we took our youngest daughter, Anna, the Cincinnati. This is kind of her last hurrah with mom and dad, where she goes back to school as a senior at Indiana, Wesleyan. So I went to Cincinnati, and we went to Red's game Friday night. And we got all you can eat seats, of course. Please tell us how much you ate at the time. I gorge myself. It was so bad. It was terrible. It gluttony. It's a sin. Okay. It's real. But the reds in the bottom of the ninth, zero, zero score, bottom of the ninth, and walk off home around by one of the rookies, and they win one zero, which is so much fun. Yes. And that was the game we were at. But they lost on Saturday and Sunday, got killed on Sunday. So we got, we made it to the game on the weekend and we would say one, it was fun. Saturday we went to the western southern, open, tennis tournament. Really fun. Got to see Carlos. As when in the semifinals and Coco Gough, when in the semifinals and Coco Gough, if you are tennis fans out there, she won the finals, which was so much fun for us. And then Carlos lost to Jokovic in the finals last night in a classic five, seven, seven, six, seven, six. Jokovic gets the win. So for all you tennis fans out there, if you're Joker fans, you're celebrating this morning. So it's fun. Then on Sunday, we went to King's Island. So we went to amusement park and got the dining plans. We got a meal every 90 minutes. I do not know how you ride roller coaster rides and then eat every 90 minutes. Every roller coaster ride, I feel like I'm gonna throw up. It's impressive. It really is. Well, you basically ride, you ride two rides and then you get another meal and ride two rides and get another meal. That's basically what happens. So because by the time you kind of check in and buy your meal, you kind of, you eat for like 30 minutes or 20 minutes, 30 minutes. So then you'll have an hour of riding rides. And then you could eat again. It's crazy. You need to like film this because I seen you eat at all you can eat things and I'm just like, I don't know how you go to roller coaster rides. Crazy. It's disgusting, actually. Amazing. I did not throw up though. Believe it or not. Impressive. So great weekend for the Shigley family. Back in the office today and get to do this podcast with my friend, Jen. So it's terrific. That's great. For listening audience, Jen has several degrees. Master's degree, master's of divinity, right? From Princeton. And then you got your PhD from Duke. I did my demon at Duke, okay, which is great. And your focus was, tell us what your focus was for your doctorate. So the focus of my program was the tradition of forming Christian leaders. And then I opted to write about transformational mentoring. Oh, wow. It's great. Great talk. And that's what we want to discuss today because mentoring is such an important aspect of the church today. And so we get to talk about this. And I think the miracle is that you get your graduate work done at Princeton and Duke and you still love Jesus. That's the miracle. They are good places that can form good Christians. Okay, good. That's all. But really I think it's the work of the Holy Spirit in my life that has, like the Spirit has journeyed with me through all of this. Yes. Praise the Lord for the Holy Spirit. That's right. Okay. So let's go on, let's dive into mentoring. Tell us, Jen, what you learned about mentoring, what is mentoring and what are some of the origins of mentoring. Talk to us a little bit about that, what you discovered through your doctorate work. Sure. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is I started writing about mentoring and I thought it was like a very unimpressive topic coming out of Duke. I thought people are just going to roll their eyes at me and think I wrote a self-help book by the time I'm done. Oh, there's Jen. Talk about mentoring again. Exactly. Isn't that sweet and kind and fluffy and so I decided as I was writing, I hit this point where I was kind of stuck and then I realized I didn't really dive very deep into like the tradition of like where this word emerged from. And so as I started reading about it, I found out it's actually connected to Homer's the Odyssey, which I read in high school and completely. didn't remember anything about what I read. I went to married in high school, so we probably didn't have to read homework. At least I didn't remember it. Well, they may be read at a good old Glendora, but I think we read like a certain chapter of it and then had to report on it, but it was a disaster and I don't remember much of it. But there's this character named mentor in the Odyssey. And he's kind of an important character. So he's the friend, the close trusted companion of King Odysseus. Yes. And so King Odysseus has to go off to the Trojan War and he has a son, Telemachus, that he is concerned about who has to be raised to be the next King of Ithaca. In case he doesn't come back. So he enlists the help of his friend mentor to be in charge of raising his child to become the next king. And so he's mentoring him to become the next king. Yes, that is where we get the term. And I think it's so fascinating because he has mentor do it and mentors never been a King. So I like kind of in the back of my head just ask the question. Well, how did mentor know how to mentor a King? Yeah. And so you see throughout the story, he has these character qualities. Like he's a trusted counselor to Telemachus. He has a parental role. At times, he sometimes shows up as Athena, the goddess of wisdom in the story. And so there's just this beautiful richness to the role that mentor plays in this story. And that's like kind of the origins of where that word emerged from. Yeah. And so it's great. It gave like a new death to the world. Way back to thousands of years ago. Yeah. When this story was written. Yeah. And then you can look at scripture too and see many of these relationships that develop that are these trusted companion wise counselor, but like the story of people journeying together. And really those can be defined as air quotes mentoring relationships. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's great. So partly too. I've always fascinated and we've talked about this in some of our grad classes that we have mentoring. And we talk about that a lot in the church context. And of course, you know, in scripture talks about being a disciple of Jesus. So you got mentoring. You have discipleship. You have counseling, which is a whole another field of counseling, which talks about kind of our past and some of our past issues and problems and how to overcome those past issues and problems with the help of the Holy Spirit. And they have coaching, which is more forward looking looking to the future and setting some goals and some things like that. And a coach helps you to set goals and then to attain those goals. But what do you see is the difference between mentoring and discipleship? Yeah, that's a question I get asked a lot. And I'm not sure that my answer is sufficient for a lot of people. I would say mentoring the way that I kind of separate the two is I think discipleship always has a spiritual component to it. Mentoring is part of discipleship, but I think like within discipleship there is a spiritual understanding always. With mentoring, it could, you could kind of separate out the faith component of it. There's a lot of mentoring in corporate settings and that kind of thing. The Harvard Business Review writes a lot about mentoring actually. And some of their articles are really interesting if you're looking for kind of a short read, but like some good information. But really what's fascinating is like people who have been mentored, historically, and according to research, tend to have like higher job satisfaction. They get more promotions. They tend to just overall have a more positive outlook on life. And they also tend to mentor more. So I think those are like some fun facts about mentoring. That's cool because basically they're saying through research, mentoring works. It really does. Yeah, it helps to uplift others in terms of maybe growing professionally or even growing spiritually and they're walk toward with Jesus. Right. So I can remember some of my doctorate work. I argue with him, one of my professors, can you believe that? Shocking. Shocking. And we're talking about mentoring and discipleship. And I can't remember his exact definition, but it was interesting. He said something like discipleship is all about discipling people to become just like you. And mentoring is just helping that person to grow. Okay, yeah. And my point in my case and what I was arguing is, well, I don't want people, I don't want to disciple people to become just like me. I want to disciple people for them to become like Jesus. Like, I'm flawed. I'm a human. I've got a lot of things that are not great, you know what I mean? And there's some things that I do well, but there's some things I don't do well. Some things I do poorly. And so I don't want to disciple people to come like me. I want them to disciple people like Jesus. And so I'm making this argument. We're going back and forth in email, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And this is how he is because profs always win. Okay, professor always wins. Sorry out there if you're listening and you're a student somewhere at Wesley Seminary or some other seminary. He ends the conversation with his email and he says, well, Eddie, it just sounds like you would be more comfortable in mentoring than discipling. That is hilarious. Yeah, and that's how he ended the conversation. If you don't want people, if you don't want to disciple people to become like you, then you should be engaged in mentoring, huh? Yeah. You know, I'm trying to decide if I would probably like be on your side of the argument. Oh, thank you Jim. Yeah, well, because that's one of my number one myths about mentoring that I talk about is the myth that I have to duplicate myself. Yes. I really don't think that's the point of mentoring. And actually use Romans 12 as a launching point for that as that call to not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. And he really believed that mentoring is a process of watching a person transform into who God has created them to be not not being transformed or I would say, duplicated into who I am, you know, because God forbid they turned into me. Exactly. I don't want that. Okay, you bring up great point about these mentoring myths. So myth number one, kind of synchronize that for us, bring us clarity. Myth number one is you have to duplicate yourself. You have to duplicate yourself. Okay, because I think sometimes we use this term mentoring because mentoring is a buzz word. Okay, in our culture and our society definitely a buzz word in the church. Right. And so sometimes we think that mentoring is about finding this sage, this guru, this person that we really look up to who's really good at whatever they do. Right. And I want to go and sit at their feet and learn from them. Right. But you're saying that is not necessarily the case, right? We are not trying to duplicate ourselves. Right, we're moving from so low a sacri who wrote a great mentoring book. It's called The Mentor's Guide and it's written actually for educators. But I think it translates really well into ministry settings. She talks about moving from the sage on the stage to being the guide on the side. And I think that's a really powerful move because then what I think happens is it opens the door for you to be mentored by people who may not be even in the same field that you're in. But you can glean from their wisdom. And in the same way as a mentor you can pour into somebody who maybe isn't on the same trajectory as you. Right. But because the whole goal isn't to duplicate yourself. So you're actually calling out those gifts and helping people see what's happening in them, letting them talk a little bit and then giving them some wisdom. And like, so what I'm hearing you say is, you know, but it's not exactly coaching. Because I think in coaching we ask those questions and we try to help the person get the answer that's within, but what I think they're discovering the solution to their own problems. We're just, the coaches is asking really good questions. Right, right. And it's more than that I think in mentoring. Because the transformative process is really making space for God's work in a person to emerge in that relationship, that actual journey together facilitates a community that allows the transformation to happen. Yes. What's interesting because a piece of my doctorate was coaching. So I kind of did an emphasis in coaching, executive level coaching, life coaching. That's what we're saying. And so I coach a lot of pastors and a bunch of our students and things of that nature. Which I love. It's so much fun. But I'd probably call myself a mentor coach, okay? And here's the reason why there's, there's a lot of times when I coach pastors and I can think of several specific examples, a lead pastor will say to me, "Eddy, stop asking me questions. Just tell me what to do." Okay, they get frustrated. They want to get to the point, right? Because coaching is taking the long route of where you keep on asking questions to help them to maybe understand or for them to kind of figure out this problem and kind of help them figure out the solution, but you're asking a bunch of questions to help them understand and for yourself to understand what's going on, right? And it's, I just crack up when they say that. And when they say that, I say, "Do you want me to mentor you or do you want me to coach you?" I love that. Right? And they say, "Oh, okay, I really want you to." and mentor me right now, but I really want coaching. So okay, then I'm gonna continue to ask questions. But then there's times when I find myself then giving advice. So now I'm entering to mentoring when I'm giving advice and not just coaching when I'm asking questions. - Right. - So that's kind of it. So I call myself really a mentor coach. - That makes sense. - A pure coach or a pure mentor. - Yeah, and I think the more that you do both, the more challenging it is to separate out the two. - Yes. - You know, I think they really do work well together. And in the same way, I think the discipleship can work well with mentoring a lot of times. You know, it's just, I think relationships are so deeply important. And I reflect back even on my hesitation to study mentoring because it felt too fluffy. And I find myself saying this a lot now that a lot of times we mistake the relationships as fluff when they're really the glue. - It's the glue. - It's the people skills, right? It's the emotional intelligence. It's being able to read the room, read people's, read people's emotions. - It is. - Yeah. - So myth number one, I really like it because when you think about every single person is uniquely made by God. - Right. - Okay. And the uniquely made in that they, we have different personalities. We have different gifts. We have different strengths on the strengths finer. We have different personalities. We have different spiritual gifts. Therefore, I don't want to remake myself, right? Because I really need to lean into how God has created that person. And yet, I think that's one also one of the, not only myths, but one of the traps we fall into as mentors. We are really trying to make them like, we're trying to remake herself. When instead, we need to help them to become who God has created them to be. - Yes. - And to discern that and to understand that. Talk about that a little bit because that's a subtle change, but I think it's an important change. - Yeah, I think, well, actually, as you were saying that, I think sometimes that's a little bit of our dysfunction too on the mentor side where we're trying to work out some things in ourselves by fixing another person to become the more ideal part of like who we think we should be. - Yeah. - I think there's a little bit of psychology at work in there sometimes. - Yes. - So saying that the myth is that we must duplicate ourselves, freeze us to be ourselves too in a more authentic way. - Yes, genuine authenticity, transparent. - Yes, the good and the bad. So we're not aiming at perfection here. What we're aiming at is truly being true to the person God has created us to be. And I think that that helps a lot of times too when I'm talking to like our program is 50% students of color and 50% women. And I think within that, I mean, even my own journey as a woman in ministry, there's some insecurity there in saying like, am I really invited to the table? - Yes. - And I think-- - Anyone you're invited to the table, do I have a voice at the table? - Exactly, yeah. And do I even like the sound of my own voice at the table? You know, all of those things that in this journey we're working out. And so I think that in that shared space of journeying together and saying, we're gonna discover more of who God has made us to be. It actually like allows us as the mentor to really embrace who God has made us. And then in doing that, invite the other person to be more truly who God has created them to be. Because I believe that God makes room at the table for a lot of weird people. - You know, it's so awesome, it's so true. - It's so much better when you're like, I mean, I think of the times that God has just like blown my mind with like what has happened in the life of a person where I had very low expectations of them. And I'm even sad to admit that sometimes, I mean, it'd been a youth pastor too, and you see that kid walk in the door and you're like, oh boy, here comes so and so, you know. - Don't see the potential in that person yet. - No, but I'm sure there's something there, God, because you say you put your image in people. So, you know, but then you see them grow and you're like, wow, I wouldn't, if I was trying to manipulate who that person was becoming, I would never have thought this was possible. And then you see like God just like bringing out gifts and people and I think about one of the young women who came into our program. And she had been in a music program and then she was in a teaching program and then she landed in the School of Theology and wasn't really sure, you know, why she was even there. - I'm still trying to start her calling. - Oh my gosh. - What does this look like? What does this mean? - Right, exactly. And then I had her in one of my preaching classes and I was like, oh my gosh, you have a speaking gift. I'm not sure how that's gonna play out in you, but and she's now a youth pastor and I'm just like amazed. And she has a very different style of teaching than I would have. I probably wouldn't have even identified it had I not been her faculty member, but just seeing her grow into a very powerful speaker. It's just, it's so cool to see that. - Right, so my mentor, some of you people would know this. My youth pastor growing up, his name's Jerry Patengale. It's Dr. Jerry Patengale. - Nice. - And he's here on faculty at NN Westland and it's just a great, great guy. So when I became a youth pastor, I didn't know what to do. So instead of saying what would Jesus do, I often said what would Jerry do? 'Cause I remember him being so impactful in my life as a youth pastor. So that mentoring relationship, okay? And in a sense being duplicated. And so when I became a youth pastor and I'm sitting in my office and sitting in my desk and going, what next? What do I do now with this massive office and very few books on the shelf, right? And you just graduate from college and you're going, I don't really know how to do ministry. I mean, is these practical ministry classes are they really going to make sense right now as I'm doing ministry? And I can remember that first year, I didn't want to do so. What would Jerry do? What would Jerry do? What would Jerry do? And then I realized I can't be Jerry. - Yes. - I need to be who God has created me. - Right. - To have speaking like Jerry, I needed to learn a speaking style and a preaching style that fit me, and who God created me to be within my own gifts and my own personality. And I had to become a youth pastor that made sense to me, that fit my own gifts and my own personality and who God created me to be. And Jerry was helpful for me to understand youth pastoring and he was helpful in helping me to grow spiritually, but he didn't want to duplicate himself. - Right. - You know, that was not his intention. Even though I took it that way. - Right. - And tried to apply it to my life and realized that doesn't work. - Right, and I think there's some charity in that on the side of the mentor that needs to be there, because the reality is, when we're making an impact on someone's life, they might initially think that, like they want to be more like you. And I think understanding that there's a process that needs to happen in us as mentors, like where that doesn't have to be the end game. Like we don't have to be the hero of the story. - Yes. - But we recognize that there's moments that we will be, but we hold that loosely with the other side where sometimes the people we mentor become better than us. - Yes. - You know, they're better at speaking. They're running a bigger church. So I think that's where we have to hold all of that loosely. But we can't like be afraid, too, of making an impact on people's lives. And there are elements of when people hang out with each other, they become a little like each other, too. - That's true. - You really do. - You start talking the same. - I know. Sometimes I say things that 20-year-olds are saying, and I'm like, wait, that's not gonna work for me in the real world. When I come home and all of a sudden I'm using phrases like, dude, or call them my wife, bro. And my wife will turn and me go, you've been hanging out with Charlie, haven't you? - So here's the tea, you know. - All of a sudden my vocabulary have changed because I've been hanging out with a certain person a lot. - Right. - Yeah, but that's so true. - And I don't think that's bad. - Yeah, it's not necessarily bad at all. - Yeah, but I think that if all of our meaning comes from turning people into our clones, that's where it gets a little dangerous, you know, because I think really the insecurity emerges when you see somebody who you were mentoring rise above you and you're like, wait a second. - Wait a second, I'm supposed to be the teacher. I'm supposed to be the mentor. - Right. - And that was somewhere the mentee. - Yes, yeah. - And like I said, you know, we gotta hold that loosely and be okay with that. 'Cause I know a lot of kids, I'm using quotes, air quotes right now, those kids that grew up in my youth ministries or different aspects of ministry through the years. And now they are, they're at these mega churches and they're doing phenomenal things for Jesus and they're getting leadership roles in different places and I'm no longer, they can still call me their youth pastor, but really we're friends. And since I am learning from them, I'm learning a lot from them. And so we need to hold this, that responsibility that we once had and that mentoring role that we once had. had in their lives and God still is using that, behold that loosely and be okay that maybe they've gone further than we have in certain ways or certain areas or they're better than we are in certain things. Right. And that's okay. Right. In fact, we need to celebrate that. Totally. Yeah. I think it's helpful when I was reading about mentoring just to see that it's actually pretty healthy for mentoring relationships to change. So if you find you've mentored someone for a while and then you kind of feel more like a friend or even if the relationship just ends, not in like a cut off kind of way but it just, it's not needed like it used to be. It's actually really. That's okay. It's a progression. Yeah. Can you mention one myth? What's another myth about mentoring? This is one of my favorites. Okay. That there's not just the one, you're not going to find the one perfect mentor who's going to satisfy every one of your needs from your personal life to your professional life to everything in between marriage, parenting, ministry, student, whatever. Right. There's not the one. So I believe in, I haven't found a word that I really like though. Some people will call it your mentoring constellation. Others will say your personal board of directors, your mentoring community. There's like, I haven't framed it yet in the way that I like to, but I think it's just important to realize like everybody's a flawed human. Yes. So they're not going to be perfect at everything, but find the people who need to be on your team and have multiple people. That's good. Yeah. Because you might have like someone you really look up to as a couple that's older and you might go, man, I want a marriage to look like that or I want our parenting to look like that. But you may have a different ministry mentor, right, right, or a different aspect to your life. You may have a different mentor. So you may even have three or four different mentors at one time in one sense or another. And they may lean into your space differently or they may lean into it at different phases or times in your life, but they may not be the one all encompassing mentor for every aspect of your life, right? Right. Right. So you're not cheating on your mentor. If I get an extra like getting additional people in your life, but I think just don't cheat on your spouse. Right. No. Do not cheat on your spouse. I am not advocating for that. You can't cheat on your mentor. It's not cheating. Sorry. Sorry. I think Stanley and Clinton frames it pretty well with there's three different kinds of mentors. Right. There's the intensive, which is the type of mentor that's in your life on a regular basis. The middle one is occasional. And that's someone who maybe is in your life for a season season. Yeah. And then the last category and I was telling you a little earlier, it's called passive. And I don't really like, I would probably name it something other than passive, because that sounds like somebody who isn't all that involved in your life invested, okay, yeah. Maybe or that you don't have a lot of investment in that passive mentors. Maybe some of you don't even know, they don't even have to be alive anymore. Right. So you know, some people like the leadership of Abraham Lincoln, he could tell you Roosevelt is my mentor. Yeah. Totally. You're not that old, are you? I would rename it though, I would call it your influencer. Okay. And I think that is a term that we understand a lot more now with the rise of the influencer. Yes. A social media, right. Yeah. So those, I think those categories are helpful in framing it. It's great. Let's pause on that one, because I want us to go further with this idea of these three types of mentors and how they apply to the church setting. Yeah. As we're thinking of as pastors and youth pastors mentoring people inside the church, because there's a three different kinds of roles that you might have in someone's life. Right. So let's pause there. Jen, thanks so much, man. This has been fun. And just learning a lot about mentoring already in this first session. So we're going to come back with a part two, but Jen, thank you so much. Thank you. That wraps it up. Boom. Boom. We would like to thank the School of Theology Ministry at Indiana Western University for allowing us to use their podcast studio and their facilities. I also want to thank the Called Collective for producing all of our podcast. The Called Collective seeks to equip the next generation of ministry leaders. Find out more information, visit the CalledCollective.org or check us out on Instagram at the Called Collective. Once again, thank you for listening to a couple of old guys talking about ministry principles. We have over 70 years of ministry experience and we'll see you next week.