S2: The Indian Act

It's me, Gavin Crawford, host of the Because News Podcast. If you're looking for some kind of group therapy for the news, well, we've got you. Because news like "Quiz, the brightest and funniest Canadians about what's going on in the world all in front of a live audience." So, whether you spent the week quoting aphorisms of "thusydities" or binge-watching heated rivalry, we'll catch you up on the Canadian headlines. Follow us wherever you get your fine podcasts for free. So, hey listeners, I don't know if you listen to Crooked Media, I do all the time. I listen to Love It or Leave It. I listen to Potsave America. I listen to Potsave, the people. I mean, I listen to a lot of their podcasts. So they are introducing a new one called This Land. It's hosted by Rebecca Nagel. She's an Oklahoma journalist and citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Yeah, and this land provides an in-depth look at how a murder story opened an investigation into half the land in Oklahoma and the treaty rights of five tribes. Yeah, so it really looks at what's at stake, the larger right-wing American attack on tribal sovereignty and how this one case could result in the largest restoration of tribal land in US history, which would be a big deal. That's a big deal, yeah. So you can listen to this land on your favorite podcast app or wherever you get the secret life of Canada. Dial up a fax machine or I usually get it through my career pigeon, yeah. Do you know what the Indian Act is? The Indian Act, uh, off top of my head, I'm not 100% certain. No idea. I knew there was some, like, I'd laws and I just didn't know what it was called. I don't know why I used to call it the Indian Act when it's deliberately incorrect. The Indian Act, like, the Red Skin Act, you know, it kind of reflects the mindset of, like, the time that when it was created. Does the Indian Act affect your life in any way? No. Not really, no. I don't think so. I mean, I don't really. I don't really know what it is. Yeah. So I'm sure there are other people that are affected by this every day. I'm just not one of them. Hey, Lea. Hey, Fallon. Happy Indigenous Month. Yay. But shouldn't I be safe? I should be. Is that one of those things where you're like, oh, happy birthday, actually, today's my birthday. I've never done that, but I kind of is that, though. Well, here, I got you this lovely pen that was already here when we got into the studio. Oh, thank you. Happy. Happy day. So today, I thought, because we are in the month of June, which is Pride Month, but it's not only Pride Month, it is also Indigenous History Month. That's right. So we should look at something that deserves some more attention, in my opinion, the Indian Act. And just FYI, the Indian Act, just for people who have never heard of it, is not the highly anticipated sequel to the book Indian in the cupboard, which I read in school. Did you read that book at all? No. I read it in school growing up, and actually there was a sequel to this book. Many of them, there was the return of the Indian, the secret of the Indian, the mystery of the cupboard, and the key to the Indian, which is the funny fun. I feel like these are all like chapters in my autobiography. It was basically about this plastic Indian, I'm putting that in quotes, toy, that turned into a living Indigenous chief, of course he was a chief. But anyway, the reason I tell you all about the racist things I read as a child is for the kids today. Kids, don't read the book, and even though Canada still has a major piece of legislation with the word, don't use the term Indian. Yeah. And I mean, I'm going to be saying it a lot today, because in this episode is pretty unavoidable. It's what it's called. Yeah. Yeah. The term Indian is deeply entrenched in law and policy in this country. So while I wouldn't use it publicly otherwise today, I will be saying it a lot. The point is just because the government uses outdated racist terminology doesn't mean you should. Okay. So let's get into it. I have to say as an Indigenous person, the Indian act has always been a bit of a mystery to me. I know that it impacts me and I know how in some ways, but I know there's a lot that I don't understand. And I figured there must be some other people out there, some Indigenous people who feel the same way. So today, I wanted to take a closer look at it. And that's just good, because I like many Canadians, I know, know really very little about it, or maybe even nothing. And that's okay. Let's learn. Yeah, exactly. That's what we're here to do. My hand failed. No, that's fine. Okay. Okay, keep going. So it's not uncommon that people don't know things about this piece of policy. And so today, what I thought we would do is I would give us some basics of the Indian act and demystify it and then look at the human cost of this piece of policy. So we can better understand how it has and continues to impact Indigenous people. And I want to look at mainly how it impacts Indigenous women. Right. We really can't do an in-depth section by section. Look at the Indian act because that would be 136 part episode, but we can look at how it came to be. Yes. So what is the Indian act? The act is Canadian federal law that governs all matters regarding to Indian status, bans, and Indian reserves. It was passed as law in 1876 and still remains as Canadian law. You can actually read it online if you want to. I found it incredibly boring, but please feel free to do it if you wish. One endorsement. And while many people in Canada, Indigenous and non-Indigenous people dislike the act and feel like it should just be gotten rid of, it really isn't that easy. So why do we have it then? Well, I think to find that out, we need to look at the roots of this deeply disturbing piece of policy. All right. Let's talk about it. All right. So to understand the Indian act, we have to go back to when the Indian department was created. And Leah, can you guess when that may have been? Okay. So I'm going to say around the time of Confederation, I'm going to spit, but I'm just throwing at a number, 1840. No. Okay. Great. No. It actually goes back to 1755. Really? Well, why was it created then? Because that is well before Confederation. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So much of the world was about to enter into a giant war called the Seven Years War. The Seven Years War is actually even sometimes referred to as like the true First World War because it was so expansive across the globe. Yeah. And it was also called the French and Indian War. Correct. So what was basically going on was that the French, they had begun to settle in North America more and more. Many indigenous nations sided with the French because the French had a deep trade relationship with many indigenous nations. The French definitely had settled in North America in more of a capacity of trade. They had also come over with Jesuits and so when Jesuits were coming over, they wanted to establish a good relationship with a lot of indigenous people because they wanted to convert them. So we talked a bit about this in the statue's episode with Samuel de Champlain and that whole group. Right. Yeah. They were big into trade and, you know, quote unquote, saving souls and all that. So there had been skirmishes kicking up in the Ohio Valley and this was a time before Canada was Canada and America was America. So the Brits decide that they need to get some indigenous allies on side. So they create the Indian department. Initially, it was actually under a military branch of the British government. You know, the fastest way to make new friends is always to create a department in their name. A department of friendship. Right. Yeah. Hey, Jason. I've created a Jason department. How do you stop on by and we'll review some documents like great way to making allies. Okay. So this Indian department, which would go on eventually to become Indian affairs and now it's the department of indigenous and northern affairs, was started under the British military. Is that right? Yes. Okay. And it seems weird, but the department was started as a way for the British to attempt to secure these good relations with indigenous people. Why? Well, so they would fight alongside them first in the Seven Years War and then again in the American Revolution or the Revolutionary War and then once more during the war of 1812. Right. Because I'm sure many indigenous people would know the land and waterways and have a good idea of strategy and tactics on their own land. Yeah, exactly. Indigenous people were invaluable during these conflicts, but we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Let's go back to 1763 and the conclusion of the Seven Years War. So the war ends, France gets beat and has to seed, which means, which means to give up most of their land in North America. But we should say it wasn't really their land to begin with. No, it wasn't. Okay, just clarify. No, no, no. But they give it up. They give it up. They give it to the Brits and King George III has the Royal Proclamation drawn up. Good title, if you're a royal. Okay. And what did he proclaim? Well, the document proclaimed British ownership over North America, but it also laid out territorial guidelines and established how it would be governed. It set aside Indian territory that was specific for First Nations use. And it explicitly states, and whereas it is just unreasonable and essential to our interest and the security of our colonies, that the several nations or tribes of Indians with whom we are connected and who live under our protection should not be molested or disturbed in the possession of such parts of our Dominions and Territory as not having been ceded to or purchased by us are reserved to them and or any of them as their hunting grounds. That sounded. I was doing Benedict Cumberbatch meets like Prince Charles. It sounded like something from like dangerous liaison, so it was a very bodice ripping. Okay. So the Royal Proclamation is incredibly important because it explains how the treaty process and the nation to nation relationship would function and how the crown should associate with First Nations people. It also forbids settlers from squatting on indigenous territory and stated that all land deals had to go through the crown. Okay. Gotcha. So when the First Indian Department's superintendents or William Johnson heard about the Royal Proclamation, he knew it was a big deal. So what did he do? Well, he set up a gathering at Fort Niagara with many First Nations. Okay. So a gathering was it a joyful gathering like a celebration or was it more of a meeting? I think it was more of a meeting to sort of solidify and establish these new relationships between First Nations and the crown because some indigenous nations had sided with the French previously and the British crown wanted to make sure that they were creating inroads and making new allies with these indigenous nations. Right. Because the British were the new colonial power in town and they wanted to be like, hey, girl. Yeah. We like, we know you were with France before, but that's cool. That's cool. Don't worry. Just let us come hang out. We promise we won't take anything, but actually we are going to take a lot of stuff and put it in museums. Yeah. Yeah. So this gathering, all right. Let's get back to it. Okay. Yeah. Because when we see the silver covenant chain, Wampum Belt being used to solidify the relationship between the crown and First Nations people moving forward, Wampum Belt are a traditional form of contracts for many indigenous people. They were made out of co-hog shells and they were threaded together. And the silver covenant chain, it shows two figures holding sort of a chain between the two of them. And this is to signify peace and friendship. This treaty was also called the Treaty of Niagara and the Belt was a document for indigenous people. And a Wampum Belt, you know, when we think of a contract, you know, a lot of people think in their mind paper. But a Wampum Belt is actually a physical, like large, spanning piece of, it almost looks like fabric, but it is made of shells, right? Yeah. It's in different threadings, different colors. Made out of these tiny co-hog shells, which are blue and or like purpley blue and white. And so it would take, some people say it would take an indigenous woman one whole day to make one shell. And so these are, you know, they're long, and so it would take a lot of hours. And so at this gathering, the indigenous people brought this belt and the British brought the royal proclamation. And so it was sort of this, like, merging of agreements, right? Right. And I think for me really talks, like, really speaks to that idea of nation-to-nation relationships. Right. So here's our contract and our language, here's our contract and our language on paper. Yeah, exactly. Very cool. Yeah, that's so interesting, because the royal proclamation was even referenced in the Constitution of 1982, our Constitution in Canada. So it is still very much part of the fabric of this country. It's also been called the Indian Magna Carta or the Indian Bill of Rights. So we now have an Indian department and the royal proclamation in play. So after the American Revolution in the War of 1812, the country of Canada begins to take shape, and the nation-to-nation relationship begins to shift. So in 1830, the Indian department was transferred over to the civilian governors of both lower and upper Canada, which essentially today is Quebecan Ontario. Right, right, right. And so that means it's no longer under the military. The Indian department is now run by the government, so just civilian dudes. Yeah, and so the next sort of piece of paper that we see coming into play that leads towards the Indian Act is called the Baguette Commission. And what was that? The Baguette Commission was named after Charles Baguette, the governor-general of British North America. So the governor-general is the queen-standin in commonwealth countries, which we are one of. So the commission was formed to look into the activities of the Indian department. And when it concluded in 1844, it had one big takeaway. And what was that? Well, that the Indians needed to be civilized and that assimilationist policy, including the establishment of boarding schools, far away from children's communities should be utilized. Okay. So residential schools? Yes. Residential schools. Now since the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, many Canadians are aware of residential schools, but if anyone doesn't know a little refresher, residential schools were set up by the Canadian government and administered by churches to assimilate indigenous children into the Western idea of society. In these schools, children were forbidden to speak their language, practice their culture, or even see their siblings who were sometimes even in the same school. There was rampant sexual and physical and emotional abuse, and a lot of the horrors that happened there are still being uncovered today. Mm-hmm. And felt today. Yeah. Some estimates say that 150,000 students attended the schools while they were in operation between 1883 and 1996. Yeah. There are so many good resources and films online, and we will link to some on our website if you want to learn more. In 1857, the responsibility for Indian Affairs had passed from Britain to the province of Canada. Wait. Because don't forget we're pre-confederation here. Right. So it's a province of Britain. Yes. Essentially, right. Okay. Gotcha. And so one of the first items of business that they had, this new department, was to pass a statute called an Act for the Graduate Civilization of the Indian Tribes of Canada. This now meant the province of Canada was in charge. The Graduate Civilization Act really was the precursor to the Indian Act. It held many of the same ideals and it sought to push and franchisement on indigenous people. Now in franchisement, that word, it's usually connected with something good like getting the right to vote or being able to participate more in a free society. But in the case of the Indian Act, it meant that indigenous people could become citizens, but they would have to give up traditional rights and go against the agreement they had in place through this royal proclamation and the Treaty of Niagara. Remember that wampum belt we were talking about? Yes. Exactly. And so what were the tests to see if you were a successful white man, like how many craft beers you could name, how you looked in khaki shorts, how many prog rock albums you owned or what your vinyl collection contained, mayonnaise consumption, how many CFL games you've been to, how many Wes Anderson films you've seen, good one. Okay. So what happens if you didn't want in franchisement? Well, you would be considered a ward of the state, kind of like a child incapable of making your own choices and living freely, but I should mention in franchisement at this time was only for men. Oh, right. Hold on to your bonnets, ladies, because you aren't people. No, no, you are not. And so the thing is many indigenous people didn't want to become enfranchised and they rejected it. As early as 1858, just one year after the act was introduced, indigenous people from Ganolage, Aquasasni, Onaida, Bay of Quinti, Walpole Island, Rice Lake, and Aldnwick meant to discuss their dissatisfaction with the act. The act was a giant failure with only one man seeking to be enfranchised and even then he was denied. Why? What was the government like? No, not, not. Was actually his band. They were like, no, you, yeah, you can't do this. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. No. Oh. Yeah. So all of these different nations, and we should say there were so many, and still are, many different nations living on the land this, at this time. Yeah. And they're obviously really concerned about the success of control that these white people and England, who's just shown up by the way, is having on their land and their lives. Yeah. But it didn't really matter because Canada was sort of heading straight for a confederation, full speed ahead. And that meant securing land for expansion west, and that was going to be done by any means necessary. This would actually sadly be a really good, like, docky series for a true crime podcast. Confederation. Move over. This is the scariest thing you'll hear in a long time. Yeah. Johnny's back. And he's drunker than ever. So in 1867, we have confederation happening. And hot on the heels of that, in 1869, we have the gradual enfranchisement act. And what was that? Well, after confederation, the Canadian government really wanted to speed up assimilation. They wanted it to take a little faster. So they restricted the ban rules or membership rules. Rules are. It's short for enrollment. Okay. Yeah. And it would refer to anyone who could claim membership to a ban or what used to be called a tribe. So why would the government want to be in charge of this, though? Well, it would make them in control of who was First Nations. And if your goal is to assimilate, then you would want to know when you had completed your task. And the Indians were all gone. You would want indigenous people to be traceable in a way. The government really pushed enfranchisement. The amendments to the Indian Act were made in an attempt to force people to become enfranchised. If you wanted to be a clergyman, if you wanted to vote, if you wanted to attend post-secondary or join the army, you had to give up your status. You couldn't be an Indian. And if you were an indigenous veteran and you wanted to receive benefits for your service, then you would have to become enfranchised, you would have to give up your identity. That's deeply disturbing. So the Act really started to play with this idea of blood quantum. Okay. So what's blood quantum? Blood quantum is a weird way of measuring how much Indian blood you have. It's incredibly complicated and deeply messed up. To me, sounds a lot like, I mean, through the history of slavery and black chattel slavery, that's a big thing as well, right? Like the one drop rule, you have one drop of black blood, then you can be chattel, you can be a slave, you know, that was the whole thing. Yeah, absolutely. And so what blood quantum would do is if you had one quarter Indian blood, then you could be on the membership roles and you could have status. Okay. So status gets you on the role. Yes. Correct. And so this idea that the Canadian government could now determine who an indigenous person was and who was not is, this is when things start to get real stuff. Weird. Yeah. The Act also worked to replace indigenous forms of governance that had been in place for thousands and thousands of years. And what they did is they instead enforced a Eurocentric idea of elected band councils. Okay, okay. Yeah. In my community, we had clan mothers and so a clan mother, they're sort of in charge, they're in charge of the whole deal. Right. And that means they're in charge of the chief. And so if a chief does something out of step with what the community wants, he can be dehorned. That's what it's called. And what it would mean is we wear these traditional hats called guswentas. And if you were the chief, you would have horns on your guswenta. And so what would happen is the clan mothers would dehorn you so they would take your guswenta away from you. Right. Okay. But they really called all the shots. Our society, like many indigenous societies, were matrilineal societies. And so when the Indian Act was coming into play, it disrupted all of these systems. And so really, we, you know, we didn't know what to do. We really were starting. It was like, you know, just being thrown into the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim with this new sort of elected band council system that was put in place. Right. Non-indigenous women who wanted to marry indigenous men, they could get status. So if you were a white woman and you married an indigenous man, you would become indigenous. Okay. But it didn't work the other way around. So an indigenous woman who married a white man would lose her status. Right. So it was deeply sexist as well. Deeply sexist. Right. And the people who lost out the most were indigenous women. Yes. Uh-huh. This journalism is the first draft of history. What happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The history bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. So in 1876, what we have is Canada sort of working towards finding a policy where they can successfully assimilate indigenous people. So they take these pieces of paper that they had been, you know, right. So all these things we were just talking about, like all of these different policies, they're now going to merge and morph all of this terrible into the Indian Act. So the Indian Act, administer status, it controls the ban council. It manages reserve lands and also reserve funds. So basically everything. Yes, basically everything. And while the Act has been amended a number of times, most notably in 1951 and 1982, it remains much the same as it did in 1876. I mean, it even has the same name. Wait, and wasn't it in 1951 when amendments to the Indian Act gave provinces jurisdiction over indigenous child welfare, like that's when they said, individually, Alberta, you handle your thing, the sketch when you do you, that whole thing happens, which lays the foundation for the 60 scoop, which is a whole other story, which was told really well by the award-winning CBC podcast, Finding Cleo. And so this piece of policy attempts and continues to attempt to govern how hundreds of nations live across the land and how they live on their land. Nations with varied traditions, governance systems, world views. All under one paternalistic piece of paper that wasn't written with any of the indigenous nations that it would affect in mind. No, absolutely. And there is some consultation, but it always feels very rushed, it feels, it doesn't really feel like consultation a lot when the amendments are happening, a lot of people don't know about it. Yeah. So it is, it is a problem. See me when the government, when the government of Canada decides that they're going to change a piece of the Indian Act, it feels rushed, it always feels like it's not communicative. Yes. That right. Yes. I wanted to speak with Gona Diohorn. She is a Mohawk woman who has a complicated relationship with the Indian Act, much like most indigenous women. She's also the host and creator of The Coffee with My Ma podcast. When I say the words Indian Act to you, what comes to mind? Suffocation, Indian agent, unfair, assimilation, status number. Those are the words that come to me off the top of my head, basically. I'm a registered Indian. How messed up is that? That's so messed up, you know? Yeah. You're like an animal that's been tagged, right? Totally. Yeah. And that's just so against our, it's just not our ways, you know? Like our ways is like you have a clan, you're given a name, you know, you're from, that's what makes you, like, you know, you identify as an unguent who a person through how you were raised and not by, because you were given a number, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's such a weird thing because like, like if you don't have one, if you're not, if you don't have a status card, that can be like a, like for me because I'm so fair. I think that's always been like a proof thing. Yeah. Yeah. Just open up my wallet. Yeah, I know. And then you find yourself doing these things, like opening up your wallet and showing somebody a status card and you're just like, oh god, like you feel dirty afterwards. Like, did I really just have to do that? But yeah, I did because, do you think the Indian act should be abolished? Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah. I think it definitely should be abolished and we should all be able to run our nations the way that we used to friggin' run our nations. We're all smart enough to do it. I mean, I remember it blew my mind when I was a kid when we were in high school and learning about what an Indian agent was. And like even today I was like riding around and you still, you can, the Indian agent's house I think is still there. I mean, it's something else now, but, but I was like, you know, really there's like, there was like one guy who like, he had to approve everything. Yeah. Because we're all bunch of idiots or something like, it's just so demeaning. And if we played by their rules, you could get certain benefits, right? Like, if you played by the Indian agent's rules, your kids could, your kids could possibly avoid going to residential school. Totally. We allowed off the reserve. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think that the Indian Act has impacted you? And if, if yes, how so, I'm assuming it's a yes, but it's, oh yeah, a hundred percent. I remember going to get my new card and it was like, you know, having to fill out all this stuff and having to go and get the picture taken and having to send it in and then waiting and then getting this card and then getting the sticker on it says like, call this number to activate your status. I'm like, this is so messed up for real. Like, then I'm like, no, I'm Indian, you know, like, you're like, super Mario leveling up. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Congratulations. You've moved on to level two Indian status. Yeah. I think the way going to do feels like, you know, like, you know, like, you're like super Mario leveling up. The way going to do feels where, you know, we kind of laugh about it when we think it's, it just sounds so ridiculous to say, but plenty of things about the Indian Act are ridiculous. So I got some examples from a really great book called 21 Things You Might Not Know About the Indian Act by Bob Joseph. I thought we would go through some of them. You're going to quiz me in a way? Well, kind of quiz. Okay. Okay. I'm ready. The Indian Act prohibited Indians from hiring legal counsel between the years 1927 to '51. So no one could hire a lawyer. No, it's like if you wanted to, like, you know, have a land claim. All right. Very convenient. Yes. Very convenient. Bad Boo. The Indian Act prevented Indians from entering a pool hall from 1927 to time undetermined. So why was that? Is it like in 1926, an indigenous man went into a pool hall, won a game, and then someone was like, you know what, we're going to legislate them out of here. Yeah, exactly. No more pool halls for you. And I still don't know if I'm allowed in a pool hall or not. I mean, we should check on that. Yeah, exactly. Just break down these barriers once and for all. Yeah, let me just walk into a pool hall and feel safe for once in my life. Yeah, right. Yeah. The Indian Act forbade Indians from forming political organizations from 1927 to 1951. This is so shady. I know. Right. Between the years 1918 and 1985, the Indian Act leased reserve lands to non-indigenous people. So, wait, reserve lands, which are reserved for indigenous people, the little piece they were given last. They were still leasing off parts of it, giving it away to white people to just do whatever they wanted. Yeah, to anyone they wanted to. The Indian Act also installed an Indian agent on reserve to implement government policies such as ensuring children attended residential school. weren't they also in charge of giving out passes to people on reserve so they could leave kind of like a hall pass, except kind of genocidal? Well, not exactly. It's kind of this one's a bit of a tricky one because the past is born a part of the Indian Act, but they were used. They weren't even law, but the practice was used by the Indian agent and it was used as a way to sort of track the movements of indigenous people. And this was actually the subject of a really fantastic movie called The Pass System by Alex Williams and we will link to that on the website as well. So many links. I don't know. Okay, so that's also, it makes me think of something really interesting when we get into the ideas of passes and status cards. It's really well known, well, by some, that by the 1940s South Africa began shaping a apartheid based on Canada's Indian Act and the Indian reserve system. So apartheid was this policy, a policy that governed relations between South Africa's white minority population and the black and brown nonwhite majority. It implemented one of the most punishing and drastic forms of racial segregation and political and economic discrimination of black and brown people. And by the 1980s and the 90s, pretty much earned the world's derision. So all those years Nelson Mandela spent in prison, it all started with Canada. Exactly. The Indian Act also declared ceremonies like the potlatch and the sun dance illegal between the years of 1884 and 1951. So potlatch is a dance, is that right? Potlatch is a ceremony. There's a bunch of parts of it. I'm not from the West Coast, so I don't, I don't think I can speak good for this. It is a ceremony. It is a ceremony. So ceremonies, they were big and demanding ceremony, dances, singing, drumming, anything that would make your culture distinctive. Right. And yours. So it's really also about, it seems like a lot of this and a lot of these policies are about implementing forgetting. We want you to forget who you are. That's a really good way of putting it, implementing forgetting. The Indian Act also renamed Indians with Eurocentric names, with European names. Oh yeah. Well this is more of that. And I mean, and the, you know what the thing that really pisses me off with, let me talk about it. Is that a lot of Europeans are coming here and changing their name to be more wasp or whatever, right? So it's like, you didn't even like your own names and you're giving them other people. Yeah. You know? I know. There's so many cool names on my reserve. And for my community, there's some really cool names and I am a Johnson. Like there are skywalkers and there are spokes. Yeah. Instead of having, anyway, I'm a Johnson. Right. I mean, you know, it has a certain tone of, I mean, don't knock it, no, it's fine, no. I'm a skywalker. I'm Johnson. Obviously, you know, which one you're going to pick. That's awesome. All right. Yeah. So this next one's really not surprising after everything we've talked about, but the Indian Act helped to deny status to indigenous women. Right. And I know that's true. And it's terrible. Yes. So after learning about all of these horrible facts about the Indian Act, I really wanted to talk to someone who went through the process of getting her status back. Dineke Doche-Nelna-Shantzi, Nogleke, Trees of Enemiesha, Shantzi. My appetite in a name is Doche-Nelna, I mean, strong woman on a hill watching over her people. And my English name is Trees of Enemiesha, say, I am a member of the White River First Nation of Beaver Creek, Yukon and Alaska, because my family is separated by the border. And I am a full-time artist and contract curator. I'm wondering if you could tell me just a little bit about how your family came to be without status. Sure. So my grandma married my grandpa. My grandma is a bartender and a woman. And she met my grandpa, who was a young, fresh and man, you know, from Northern Holland. He came over right at the end of the Second World War. And he made his way to the Yukon in his 20s. And then, I don't know, they fell in love, got married and they had some kids. And at that time, my grandma, because she married my non-indigenous grandpa, lost her Indian status. So she was no longer recognized by the Canadian government, the federal government, as a status Indian. She was as kind of seen as an everyday citizen. With the history of the gender discrimination in the Indian Act, the main part of it is, okay, let's say, an indigenous man marries a non-indigenous woman. She gained status. Her kids gained status. And if her kids married and had children with another non-indigenous person, their children would also gain status. So where the gender discrimination comes into play is, when my grandma married my grandpa, who's non-indigenous, she lost status. Her kids never had status until 1985, and I, a product of my mum, whose mixed race, having a child with my dad, whose non-indigenous, I never had status. So that's where the gender discrimination comes into play. It's all about the original women, that married non-indigenous men, the discrimination kind of went down all the way to their grandchildren. And can you tell me a little bit about, I guess, your decision to gain status. Oh, God. That's a big one for me. With my grandma, being raised in a small indigenous community in Northern Canada, that's linked very close to Alaska. And when you're raised around your indigenous family, more so than your non-indigenous family, your identity is quite firm. You know, I have light skin, I have blue eyes, but I was taught to be a first nation person. You know, I was an indigenous woman, I was a dine, an upper 10 and a half person. It didn't matter if I was status or non-status. I was considered a non-status Indian at that time. It didn't matter because my grandma had always said, you're an Indian person. You know, she'd say to me, when I was a kid, you know, Teresa, are you an Indian? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then she'd be like, you know, the next year or the next couple of years, she'd be like, Teresa, are you first nation? Yes, yes, I am. Teresa, are you, you know, white river first nation? Yes, yeah, I am. She always kept pushing that identity to make sure that I was confident in my identity because I'm the only grandchild that has such fair skin. My cousins and I grew up very, very close, were considered brother cousins. So growing up with them, they all kind of ended up with darker skin than me. So I think my grandma felt a need to kind of reassure my identity. So when the option of becoming a status Indian came up, I thought, at first, it was kind of like a no-brainer because it's like, well, I already am. It doesn't really need a card, but I might as well have a card, you know, like, yeah, proof, hard proof. Yeah, exactly. Hard proof. Hard, laminated proof. Yes. Yeah. But, you know, it was after I actually applied for the card that I started a question whether or not I really needed that quote-unquote proof because it's like, okay, so what happens now? I guess today I was non-status and now I'm a status Indian. What happens now? Like what's next? What does this give me? What has it taken away? And I think in a lot of respects, it's taken away a little bit of freedom because now I'm once again in another category, you know, you have your Canadian passport. That's a category. You have your driver's license and that's a category. Now, you have Indian status and it's, you're in a category, like with my grandma's words, always in my head, like, you're an Indian, Teresa, are you an Indian? Asking that question and I'm saying yes because she taught me to say yes. I thought that was good enough, but society doesn't really like that. And they prefer, you either have proof or you're not one. So I think that's where it kind of came into play that I wanted the card. Okay. So why can't we just push the Indian Act into the ocean? Well, it has become so deeply entrenched into the Canadian legal system. It's hard to undo the knot. In 1969, Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau and his Minister of Indian Affairs, future Prime Minister Jean Cretchan, presented the white paper on Indian policy. It's a very on-the-nose title. Yeah, I know, right? Really? This paper proposed an end to the Indian Act and the legal relationship between Canada and First Nations people. It would eliminate Indian status, dissolve the Department of Indian Affairs, abolish the Indian Act, and it would appoint a commissioner to look at land claims and terminate treaties. So wait, based on everything we've just heard and everything you've just told me, why would that be such a terrible idea? We've just talked about the act being really terrible for indigenous people. Well, it would terminate our identities and our rights as sovereign nations. Our reserve lands would be for sale, our treaties would be dissolved. To many indigenous people, those treaties, those agreements, our ancestors made those, and they are sacred to us. It would also erase Canada's history and responsibilities. It would mean we become assimilated. We would just become Canadians. And so we still have the Indian Act. So do you have a copy? I do. It was my great-grandmothers. She passed away when she was 101. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah. She lived alone until she was 100 and she passed away when she was 101. We were cleaning out her house. Me and my sister one day, we were going through some things, some of her papers, and there's a stack of magazines and just out of this stack of magazines, they sort of fell over and a copy of the Indian Act popped out. It was amazing. And inside it were actually the election papers, the first election papers for Six Nations Band Council. I don't know why she kept it. I don't know what it meant to her. I thought about it a lot. I thought about that day when we found it, a lot writing this episode and I thought she must have known that it meant something and then it somehow. Well, it would have so much meaning in her life whether good or bad, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder what she understood about it, this paper, this document written by white men. Our way from our reserve, and in the end, I guess it doesn't really matter, because what say do we have in any of this anyway? The thing for me that's really upsetting about all of this is that when we think about the royal proclamation, those agreements were there. It was nation to nation, we were coming together and we were making agreements about how we were going to move forward. But the thing is, as we moved forward, as Canada moved forward, it forgot about that agreement. It pushed that agreement to the side and it just did whatever it wanted to do. Well, yeah, it didn't stick to its side of the agreement, so really that agreement is no and void. You know, like that is the truth of it. That's the truth. Well, and I mean the thing is we can't. I don't want to let it go. Like I don't want the royal proclamation to be let go. I want to hold on to the royal proclamation because I feel like we didn't come together to create the Indian Act. So you feel in a way that the royal proclamation was the last time, really, that nation to nation agreement happened. And then from then on, Canada didn't hold up its end of that agreement and then just started making new laws and not really consulting and doing whatever it wanted. Well, yeah. Even in treaties, treaties that were, you know, post the royal proclamation, they haven't been honored. They haven't been treated as sacred, which they are to us. They are to us. Those are our ancestors signatures on those pieces of paper. That is a sacred thing that we have to hold on to when it's disregarded like that. When you try to lay pieces of policy over top of pieces of policy, over top of pieces of policy, so that we can't remember what the initial thing is that we agreed to. You're not going to make us forget. We remember. The secret life of Canada is recorded in Toronto on the traditional lands of the Haudenosaunee, Bandat and most recently, the Mississaugas of the Credit. It's written and hosted by me, Faelin Johnson and me, Leah Simone Bowen and produced by Katie Johnson. Our script editor is a vet Nolan. Research assistance is provided by John Wear, special thanks to Kelsey Cueva and the folks at the CBC Archives. Our digital producer is Fabiola Carletti. The senior producer of CBC podcasts is Tony Springer and the executive producer is Arif Nourani. 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